CelticsStrong
Around the League => The Draft => Topic started by: drogbagarnett on April 15, 2017, 03:25:48 PM
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To keep it simple I will say :
1 Flutz
2 Tatum
3 Jackson
4 Markkanen
Now to elaborate a little :
1 Flutz : Ideal
Best player in the draft superstar potential. He solves our "second go to scorer with size that can handle the ball, create space and get shot of over defense and create for others" issue.
Potential Team :
Thomas Smart Rozier
Flutz Bradley Young
Crowder Brown Nader
Olynyk Yabusele Mickey
Horford Zizic Free Agent
2 Tatum : No need for Hayward
Superstar potential. Solves the same issue as Flutz but from the wing position.
Potential Team:
Thomas Smart Rozier
Brown Bradley Young
Crowder Tatum Nader
Olynyk Yabusele Mickey
Horford Zizic Free Agent
3 Jackson : No need for Butler
Star potential. Fits into the team mantra of aggressive perimeter defense. Perfect Ainge type pick.
Potential Team:
Thomas Smart Rozier
Brown Bradley Young
Crowder Jackson Nader
Olynyk Yabusele Mickey
Horford Zizic Free Agent
4 Markkanen : Especially if KO is leaving
Great Role Player, Unicorn potential. Becomes our deadly 3pt shooter with size.
Potential Team:
Thomas Smart Rozier
Brown Bradley Free Agent
Crowder Young Nader
Olynyk Markkanen Yabusele
Horford Zizic Mickey
Overall I will be happy in any of the scenario.
I dont like Ball (nothing to do with his father)
I think Bradley should come from the bench.
I dont think we need to add a max contract but if it should happen then scenario 4 could be where we go for Hayward...
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Fultz
Ball
Tatum
Jackson
Fultz looks like a special pick. Assuming there are no concerns he is the top guy.
With all the talk surrounding his family it is easy to forget that Ball is one of the top prospects. He has the potential to be a Jason Kidd type of player and that is truly special. I wouldn't be surprised if he was higher on Bostons list than we might think.
I think Tatum would be a great fit in Boston, and if he added some size could be a solid stretch 4 in smaller line ups. Only problem is that we are crowded at the wing. No reason to pass on him if he is the guy but worth mentioning.
Jackson seems like a Danny Ainge type of player. I don't think any of us would be too surprised if Ainge took him at two or three, but his offensive game and some of the off the court stuff is a bit of a concern to me.
I think so much of it is going to come down to the team workouts and interviews to see who would be the best fit. Can't wait to see where we end up in the draft.
One nice thing about both Fultz and Ball is their size. Either one could could play alongside any of our other guards,and I bet Stevens would love to have either one of them.
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Markelle Fultz
Josh Jackson
Jayson Tatum
Dennis Smith, Jr.
The first three is pretty much self explanatory, 3 of the top 4 players projected.
Dennis Smith is a very interesting prospect for me. Super athletic, can get his own shot, can get to wherever he wants. There are some motor issues but he's as talented, maybe the most athletic and has as high an upside as the rest.
I don't want anything to do with Lonzo Ball. Very talented kid, but I don't want to deal with that circus of a dad he has.
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3 Jackson : No need for Butler
Star potential. Fits into the team mantra of aggressive perimeter defense. Perfect Ainge type pick
2 Tatum : No need for Hayward
Superstar potential. Solves the same issue as Flutz but from the wing positio
Most every draft thing I can get my hands on, says the exact opposite that Jackson has the most potential in this draft. What in heavens name did you base the star the superstar on? You went to Duke perhaps?
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Fultz
Jackson
Tatum
Ball
I have Fox 5th fwiw, then a big dropoff.
Fultz seems the total package. Should be able to score at will from anywhere on the court, can play on and off the ball and has the physical tools to be a plus defender. Downside is that he is a point guard and thats the easiest position in the league to find talent at.
Jackson is a stud defender, fits perfectly into the identity we have here. He is an unbelievable athlete and a good finisher and makes "winning plays" His shot and off court issues are concerning.
Tatum projects as an elite iso scorer which is really important in this game. he can play the 4, should stretch his range out to 3-point territory and doesnt have any glaring weaknesses.
I dont love Ball but you cant deny his talent. His inability to defend concerns me.
Fox I think has John Wall level upside. He is also virtually impossible to fit onto this team.
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1. Fultz
2. Jackson
3. Tatum
4. Monk
5. Fox
6. Issac
7. DSJR
no I didnt forget Ball
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To keep it simple I will say :
1 Flutz
2 Tatum
3 Jackson
4 Markkanen
Now to elaborate a little :
1 Flutz : Ideal
Best player in the draft superstar potential. He solves our "second go to scorer with size that can handle the ball, create space and get shot of over defense and create for others" issue.
Potential Team :
Thomas Smart Rozier
Flutz Bradley Young
Crowder Brown Nader
Olynyk Yabusele Mickey
Horford Zizic Free Agent
2 Tatum : No need for Hayward
Superstar potential. Solves the same issue as Flutz but from the wing position.
Potential Team:
Thomas Smart Rozier
Brown Bradley Young
Crowder Tatum Nader
Olynyk Yabusele Mickey
Horford Zizic Free Agent
3 Jackson : No need for Butler
Star potential. Fits into the team mantra of aggressive perimeter defense. Perfect Ainge type pick.
Potential Team:
Thomas Smart Rozier
Brown Bradley Young
Crowder Jackson Nader
Olynyk Yabusele Mickey
Horford Zizic Free Agent
4 Markkanen : Especially if KO is leaving
Great Role Player, Unicorn potential. Becomes our deadly 3pt shooter with size.
Potential Team:
Thomas Smart Rozier
Brown Bradley Free Agent
Crowder Young Nader
Olynyk Markkanen Yabusele
Horford Zizic Mickey
Overall I will be happy in any of the scenario.
I dont like Ball (nothing to do with his father)
I think Bradley should come from the bench.
I dont think we need to add a max contract but if it should happen then scenario 4 could be where we go for Hayward...
I like your top three in the order you listed but I really really really dont like the idea of KO starting. I just dont see how that helps this team.
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1. Fultz
2. Jackson
3. Tatum
4. Monk
5. Fox
6. Issac
7. DSJR
no I didnt forget Ball
The Ball hate is thick around here. I consider myself a Ball hater too but I wouldn't slot him below #4. In fact, that is where I have him, firmly in the second tier with Jackson and Tatum. There is a drop off after those three.
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Why do you write FLUTZ? Is it a joke or double sense that I am missing? :-[
Also, Ball is a great prospect. I know all the stuff about his father, the Lakers and so on, but in a pure basketball debate he shouldn't be so low.
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My preference is as follows.
Fultz. Best prospect since LeBron
Jackson. Cut from the same cloth as Smart, Brown, Crowder with HUGE potential offensively.
Tatum. Melo with none of the salary or attitude issues? Yes please. I switch between taking Tatum 2nd and Jackson 3rd daily. I think Tatum could score for us on the 2nd unit from day 1.
Isaac. A better Brandon Ingram. A bit of a project in the making, but the potential is way too high to pass up.
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Fultz
Jackson
Ball
Tatum
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Fultz. Best prospect since LeBron
Better than Durant, Davis, KAT?
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Fultz. Best prospect since LeBron
Better than Durant, Davis, KAT?
Yeah, I wouldn't go that far. In terms of prospects, Davis, Oden, and Durant were higher. I'd put fultz about the same as KAT.
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Fultz
Jackson
Tatum
Ball
That's what I expect to be the top 4. Fultz is obvious top pick for me. Offensive guard who can score and would be a good fit on this team.
Jackson has Celtic written all over. NBA ready body, elite defender, potential to be good scorer. Basically sounds like Smart/Brown/Bradley in a way. Ainge seems to have obsession with these types of players.
Tatum I like too. Worried about his actual position in NBA and if he can defend since he isn't an uber athlete. I like players that have the isolation game. Feel like it's going extinct with the way the game is going.
I think Ball slides. Not really anything to do with his dad. Just feel like he won't be able the score well or defend at the NBA level. Not questioning his passing ability.
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Fultz. Best prospect since LeBron
Better than Durant, Davis, KAT?
If this was true Id imagine Washington would have had a much better record this year
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Fultz. Best prospect since LeBron
Better than Durant, Davis, KAT?
If this was true Id imagine Washington would have had a much better record this year
Averaging 23 points 5.7 rebounds and 5.9 assists on a team whose second best player is David Crisp. When it comes down to it, Basketball is a team game and one guy can only dominate so much when all 5 players on the other team are focused on stopping him. The dude basically played 1v5 and played within a coach's' system that did not benifit him in the slightest. I think if you switch Ball and Fultz, UCLA wins the title and Washington wins 4 games.
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3 Jackson : No need for Butler
Star potential. Fits into the team mantra of aggressive perimeter defense. Perfect Ainge type pick
2 Tatum : No need for Hayward
Superstar potential. Solves the same issue as Flutz but from the wing positio
Most every draft thing I can get my hands on, says the exact opposite that Jackson has the most potential in this draft. What in heavens name did you base the star the superstar on? You went to Duke perhaps?
Lol! I wish.
In heavens name? It's pretty simple. First everyone has his own opinion on why they think a player might be a star those kids are among the best of the draft so they do have that "potential".
Now what I value to make it to superstar status is being able to create your own offense, create separation and knock down your jump shoot. that gets you far. Tatum has it, Jackson not really... Hence my opinion. You are more than welcome to have your own opinion as well off course.
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Jackson
Fultz
Tatum
Fox
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Fultz
Jackson
Tatum
Ball
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Fultz (a Westbrook type player without the FREAKISH athleticism)
Ball (best PG since Kidd)
Jackson (taller version of Jimmy Butler)
Tatum (not sure what to make of him. Has games where he is STUD material and then goes 4 for 12 from the field the next and he turns the ball over quite a bit. Did finish the year strong tho.)
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Fultz
Jackson
Tatum
Ball
I think I'll maintain Fultz at #1. Seems like a sure-fire stud scorer with no huge flaws. I could see myself flip-flopping on Jackson and Tatum throughout the next month. Those two are close. I like Jackson's Paul George/Kawhi potential, but I like Tatum a lot too, and I'm interested to see his combine measurements as he looks huge to me. Ball too talented to drop below 4. His passing is special.
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Fultz game reminds me of Derozan with a better court vision and a deadly three ball. He is methodical in dissecting what the defense gives him and can get to his spot almost at will.
Im crossing my fingers we get the first pick this time round...no question Fultz is the man.
Tatum has the potential to be a Joe Johnson type player. So im really on the fence here whether to grab him or Jackson second or third...but 4th pick for me is not an option. Id trade that in a heartbeat for immediate help and if it brings back a star.
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Fultz ....the more interviews and so forth I see , confirms he is the #1 pick .....and I think even the Lakers won't pass on Fultz for Ball. I feel like this is he way Celtics FO goes as of today. Plus IT vouches for him.
I like Jackson as a second pick , But , depending on personal meetings and workout with staff , I'm not positive who CBS might windup favoring They might decide Ball or Tatum is their guy .
I guess Ball would be my #3 ....unless I see and hear whining and moaning out of his camp about being drafted to Celtics then. Would not have him as a gift. I find this talk childish and a turnoff . If he works out with a positive attitude in front of Danny .....he might go higher with Celtics.
Tatum 4 th
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For Suns:
Fultz
Jackson
Tatum
Ball
For Celts:
Fultz
Tatum
Jackson
Ball
honorable mention: Fox (he may outdo Ball one day in total impact...will be a good rivalry).
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Jackson
Fultz
Tatum
Fox
I like Fultz over Jackson, but I agree with Tatum and Fox. I think Tatum could be Pierce and Fox could be Rondo. I'm hoping Fultz resembles DWade/Lillard. I think Jackson's upside is Kawhi.
I'm not sold on Lonzo. I'm hoping he gets picked by LA.
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If no Fultz, give me Jackson or Tatum, whichever the team deems best.
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22 Days til the Draft Lottery.
8)
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If no Fultz, give me Jackson or Tatum, whichever the team deems best.
What do you think about Ball as a propsect? I like Tatum and Jackson as well. Worried about Jackson's offense. And I'm worried Tatum could be Tobias Harris 2.0.
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If no Fultz, give me Jackson or Tatum, whichever the team deems best.
What do you think about Ball as a propsect? I like Tatum and Jackson as well. Worried about Jackson's offense. And I'm worried Tatum could be Tobias Harris 2.0.
Im not sure about Ball's ability to create in the HC. I havent seen that at all. His lack of mid range really scares me thus I have him 4th behind Tatum and Jackson.
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Lack of respect for Ball on this site makes me question the talent evaluating abilities of many that post here. Ball is the real deal with Jason Kidd upside only with a three point shot already developed. He will be a triple double threat every night once he acclimates himself to the NBA game and out of all the prospects, he might be the one that acclimates his game fastest. Why? Because his BBIQ is of the chart.
I really believe Ball is top two minimum and might be #1 on a whole bunch of teams draft boards by the time the draft rolls around.
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#1 pick and in a clear league of his own: Markelle Fultz. Potential top 5/ NBA superstar player.
#2 pick and could very well be an All Star caliber/top 25 player. Lonzo Ball
#3 Tatum- solid potential on both ends. Could be an All Star and hopefully at least a Tobias Harris level player in a worst case.
#4 Jackson- I don't see as much star potential on offense in Jackson as others do. I see an elite defender who can score in straight line drives but lacks handles to be a superstar. Like an elite defender with offense of Jeff Green.
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#4 Jackson- I don't see as much star potential on offense in Jackson as others do. I see an elite defender who can score in straight line drives but lacks handles to be a superstar. Like an elite defender with offense of Jeff Green.
Jackson is a lot more competitive than Jeff Green. Green always had the talent but lacked the competitive edge. Jackson does not.
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#4 Jackson- I don't see as much star potential on offense in Jackson as others do. I see an elite defender who can score in straight line drives but lacks handles to be a superstar. Like an elite defender with offense of Jeff Green.
Jackson is a lot more competitive than Jeff Green. Green always had the talent but lacked the competitive edge. Jackson does not.
I don't question his edge. I'm saying he's got a pretty limited offensive skill set in the half court.
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Lack of respect for Ball on this site makes me question the talent evaluating abilities of many that post here. Ball is the real deal with Jason Kidd upside only with a three point shot already developed. He will be a triple double threat every night once he acclimates himself to the NBA game and out of all the prospects, he might be the one that acclimates his game fastest. Why? Because his BBIQ is of the chart.
I really believe Ball is top two minimum and might be #1 on a whole bunch of teams draft boards by the time the draft rolls around.
Your points are well taken but dont speak to the concerns that I listed. The things you listed are his best points which could make him a good player but that doesnt mean the concerns about his P & R ability, his ability to create a shot in the HC,his one dimensional scoring in the HC with the ball in his hands arent concerns.
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I'd be curious what it is about Fultz (or Ball) that will make them so much better a prospect than say, Kris Dunn or Deangelo Russell?
I don't watch college ball, but am legitimately curious because it seems folks were saying all the same things about Dunn and Russell when they were the cream their respective drafts.
What makes this year's prospects different?
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Lack of respect for Ball on this site makes me question the talent evaluating abilities of many that post here. Ball is the real deal with Jason Kidd upside only with a three point shot already developed. He will be a triple double threat every night once he acclimates himself to the NBA game and out of all the prospects, he might be the one that acclimates his game fastest. Why? Because his BBIQ is of the chart.
I really believe Ball is top two minimum and might be #1 on a whole bunch of teams draft boards by the time the draft rolls around.
I get that his IQ is off the charts, but he just isn't as high for me because of 2 deciding factors. His mid range game is literally non existent. His shake isn't there. Creating off the dribble always seemed to be a problem, and his PnR game just wasn't at the level you want a modern PG to be able to do it at.
Also his shooting. While percentage wise it is great, mechanically it is one of the worst shots I have ever seen. He gets it to work, but shooting from such a low position really opens defenders up to contest it, even if he is a few feet behind the NBA 3pt line.
If he puts a ton of work into his shot to not shoot it like a 10th grade girl (not a diss, just a lot of women I have seen shoot from these low angles,) then he might be special.
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Top Tier
Fultz- Top prospect. Going to be one of the best at getting into the paint off the dribble in the league. I think he will be a Harden level talent in terms of scoring, they have similar measurements, but I think Fultz might be more explosive. Fits the need we have of another offensive creator when teams shift towards IT.
Second Tier (I go back and fourth on these next 3 guys)
Tatum- Is a great scorer. He might not be as explosive as the other guys in the top 4, but the natural footwork he has at such a young age is going to lead him to be a great offensive player. He has great length and should be able to guard multiple positions once he fills out. Long term he and Brown on the perimeter would pose a ton of match up problems for opponents. His shot improved as the season went along which i what you want to see and the mechanics are good. I heard on a recent podcast that no one works harder on their game than him. He reminds me of Melo, except Tatum defends and makes the extra pass.
Jackson- An athlete the likes of which the Celtics haven't seen in a while. Superior vertical athlete to Jaylen Brown. He's an excellent passer, can guard multiple positions due to his size, and quickness. His shot went in during the second half of the year but I don't like it mechanically. Combine his ugly mechanics with a poor 3 point percentage and he might end up struggling to shoot at the NBA level. If he can clear up his mechanics and become a 3 point shooter I think he is a star in this league.
Ball- Elite passer, great feel for the game, good vertical athlete. On the right team he can lead an elite offense. On the wrong team he won't be able to create the separation to create any shots. If we trade for a guy like George, or Butler or sign a player like Hayward I think Ball is a perfect fit because he will enhance great scorers rather being expected to create himself. If we don't acquire another scorer I don't see how Ball fits, since we need offensive creators for when teams collapse on IT and Ball isn't that.
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My Celtics draft boards is the following
Fultz
Ball
Tatum
Jackson
For me the debate is broken up into two pairings. Fultz and Ball at PG and Jackson and Tatum as combo wings. I see the PGs going 1-2 and the wings 2-3.
In my opinion Fultz is the clear #1. I am a huge Ball fan but for a #1 pick I fear the unknown. Fultz fits a clear NBA player archetype. He is a big athletic scoring point. Rose, Westbrook and Wall have all shown the value of this type of player in the league. Ball is an out of the box prospect. The best current player comp I can come up with is Rubio with 3pt range. However to give Rubio an outside shot totally changes him as a player. His shooting range and passing are both elite skills that will clearly make him a long time NBA player. My question is if he will be able to defend 1v1 well enough, create 1v1 at the end of the clock, and finish at the rim at the level needed to be a Star. With Fultz these are not questions and clearly separated them as prospects.
Jackson and Ball are statistically similar prospects who play very differently. Jackson will likely be a 3/2 wing who is capable of initiating the offense and at the very least play as a secondary ball handler. I could see him thriving if given a Evan Turner like role (when with Cs) as I think they have similar skills sets with Jackson being a superior defender and athlete. Tatum is a scoring 3/4 if he adds weight to his wide frame he should have no issues physically vs smaller PFs. He really needs to commit himself to playing defense but has the makings of an offensive stud. This is a tough call but given that Tatum is 1 year younger then Jackson I give a slight edge to Tatum. With that said Jackson is the safer pick.
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Top Tier
Fultz- Top prospect. Going to be one of the best at getting into the paint off the dribble in the league. I think he will be a Harden level talent in terms of scoring, they have similar measurements, but I think Fultz might be more explosive. Fits the need we have of another offensive creator when teams shift towards IT.
Second Tier (I go back and fourth on these next 3 guys)
Tatum- Is a great scorer. He might not be as explosive as the other guys in the top 4, but the natural footwork he has at such a young age is going to lead him to be a great offensive player. He has great length and should be able to guard multiple positions once he fills out. Long term he and Brown on the perimeter would pose a ton of match up problems for opponents. His shot improved as the season went along which i what you want to see and the mechanics are good. I heard on a recent podcast that no one works harder on their game than him. He reminds me of Melo, except Tatum defends and makes the extra pass.
Jackson- An athlete the likes of which the Celtics haven't seen in a while. Superior vertical athlete to Jaylen Brown. He's an excellent passer, can guard multiple positions due to his size, and quickness. His shot went in during the second half of the year but I don't like it mechanically. Combine his ugly mechanics with a poor 3 point percentage and he might end up struggling to shoot at the NBA level. If he can clear up his mechanics and become a 3 point shooter I think he is a star in this league.
Ball- Elite passer, great feel for the game, good vertical athlete. On the right team he can lead an elite offense. On the wrong team he won't be able to create the separation to create any shots. If we trade for a guy like George, or Butler or sign a player like Hayward I think Ball is a perfect fit because he will enhance great scorers rather being expected to create himself. If we don't acquire another scorer I don't see how Ball fits, since we need offensive creators for when teams collapse on IT and Ball isn't that.
I want to copy and paste this going forward. TP Evan. Great analysis, and is exactly what I think about each prospect.