CelticsStrong
Around the League => The Draft => Topic started by: perks-a-beast on March 18, 2017, 12:15:25 PM
-
Currently the Kings hold the 7th pick and the 8th pick. The 8th pick is the one they aquired from the Pelicans in the disastrous Demarcus Cousins trade, which is top 3 protected.
*this isnt a trade I would contemplate if the Celts finish with the top pick, as I believe Fultz is the only transformative prospect in this draft. However, if the pick falls to the 2-4 range, this is something I hope Danny would consider as there will still be plenty of high end prospects in that range. Specifically I have my eyes on Monk and Markkanen.
Let's say we end up with the 3rd pick and Sacramento really wants to trade up for Tatum, Ball, or Jackson.
Hypothetical draft order via realgm draft simulator..
PHX - Markelle FUltz
LAL - Lonzo Ball
*SAC - Jayson Tatum
ORL - Josh Jackson
PHI - Dennis Smith
NYK - Jonathan Isaac
*BOS - Malik Monk
*BOS - Lauri Markkanen
It would be even better if the Knicks took Monk, and we ended up with Isaac and Markkanen! There are far too many possibilities in this draft. I am extremely giddy to see how this all plays out. Of course there a lot of IFS in this scenario, but how many of you would be in favor of a trade like this?
-
Interesting idea, but not sure we need more picks. We already need roster spots for the Nets pick, Zizic, and Yabu, plus any free agent we might sign with our cap space. Also, not sure that adding two more high picks who need playing time to develop is the right thing for a team on the cusp of contention. I think if the pick falls to 3 or 4 and Danny doesn't like a player there, he's better off trading to the next draft or trying to do a 2-1 or 3-1 trade for a vet who fills a need on the team and opens up some spots.
That said, I don't think this happens. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity for a contending team to get a top 4 draft pick, and I think Danny will use it. As you said, maybe there is only one transformational player in this draft, but that's not always obvious on draft day. Any of the top 4 players are likely to end up as above average NBA players and unless Danny can bundle the pick up for a trade for a star, it's I think it's likely to get used where it is.
-
Interesting idea, but not sure we need more picks. We already need roster spots for the Nets pick, Zizic, and Yabu, plus any free agent we might sign with our cap space. Also, not sure that adding two more high picks who need playing time to develop is the right thing for a team on the cusp of contention. I think if the pick falls to 3 or 4 and Danny doesn't like a player there, he's better off trading to the next draft or trying to do a 2-1 or 3-1 trade for a vet who fills a need on the team and opens up some spots.
That said, I don't think this happens. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity for a contending team to get a top 4 draft pick, and I think Danny will use it. As you said, maybe there is only one transformational player in this draft, but that's not always obvious on draft day. Any of the top 4 players are likely to end up as above average NBA players and unless Danny can bundle the pick up for a trade for a star, it's I think it's likely to get used where it is.
On the cusp of contention" is somewhat of a drastic statement, ecspecially when one of the owners of the team himself says the team is two superstars away from being a serious threat.
This is such a good draft 1-11 that if you make a trade like that you are not really sacrificing talent. Does anyone really think that Markkanen/Monk are much of a drop off from say Tatum/Smith? Of course for this trade to work Sacramento would sure have to think so, which isn't completely out of the realm of possibility given how incompetant that front offiCe has proven to be.
-
Monk and Markkanen would be instant upgrades over Rozier/Olynyk, which is pretty dang impressive for 19 year old freshman.
-
Why is this an interesting concept? It's not interesting and it's not smart.
1. With Yab and Zizic coming roster spots are at a premium. Remember that after this year the Cs have another Brooklyn 1st (2018), Memphis 1st (2019), LAC 1st (2019) and still a bunch of 2nd rounders. Thus quantity is not what the Celtics need.
2. The Cs don't need another role player and the chances are considerably better for a star the higher you draft. The Cs need to play the odds. When you have a top 4 pick the odds are good that player will end up being a star or starter. The odds are much worse at 7-8. http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm
3. This draft is currently seen as having a good top 4 or 5 and then a drop off - Fultz, Ball, Jackson and Tatum are currently the solid top 4 and I figure one more guy will move up during the workouts. But there's a line between those guys and the next and there's no reason to drop down.
Monk and Markkanen would be instant upgrades over Rozier/Olynyk, which is pretty dang impressive for 19 year old freshman.
Laughable. Simply laughable.
Monk and Markkanen may be upgrades over Rozier/Olynyk eventually but it's highly probable they won't be instant upgrades. KO is now a savvy vet who plays decent defense and averages 10/5 in 20 minutes or so. Markkanen would be lucky to get those stats in his 1st year and Olynyk would still be the better team defender. Monk can shoot but replacing Rozier isn't going to happen because Monk has to learnt to play defense before Brad would let him see the court. That's not going to happen next year either.
So neither one is likely to be an instant upgrade and the chances of either developing into a star is far less likely than a #3 or #4 pick. It's a lose-lose.
-
Why do you consider the Cousins trade "disastrous"? Some important things happened, from the Kings standpoint, as a result.
- They ensured their own pick will not convey, as it is top 10 protected.
- They received a top 10 pick in a loaded draft from the Pelicans.
- Skal Lab has now began to show promise with the amount of playing time that has opened up.
- Cauley-Stein has also played much better since the trade.
- They received Hield who is yet another player that has produced much better after the all-star break.
- Kings don't have to worry about the constant drama surrounding Cousins and his upcoming contract situation. A player who although produces stats does not seem to impact winning.
-
I agree with your point that the trade makes sense when looking at the talent. Yes, I would, in a vacuum, rather have 2 of those guys than one. My concern is how you fit 2 rookies, even talented ones, into the rotation of a team that is playing to win.
I think we are on the cusp of contention right now. Are we top contenders? No. But we're currently the 2nd best team in the conference, only a couple games behind last year's champs in the standings, and rated one of the top 6 teams in the league by most of the power rankings out there. We beat both CLE and GS in the last two weeks, and our winning % when all our starters are healthy is over .700. I think we have a decent chance of making the conference finals (TOR and WAS are both pretty good too), and if we get there, have at least a chance of getting past CLE, especially if Love isn't back. A lot would have to go right to get to the finals, but being a contender means that we're in the conversation. If there is a decent chance of making the conference finals, then you're a contender.
My concern would be that to try and fit in two more top tier rookies next year, the team would have to take a step back for a couple of years to develop them or waste a couple of roster spots to leave them at the end of the bench. Brad has done a good job this year in working Jalen in without disrupting the team's overall performance. Not sure that would be as easy trying to rotate two rookies through.
-
Don't relly understand the issue with the "lack of roster spots" are you telling me we are going to have to sacrifice Demetrius Jackson, Jordan Mickey, Gerald Green, Tyler Zeller, James Young to fit in two high upside rookies in a loaded draft class? Oh no!!
-
Don't relly understand the issue with the "lack of roster spots" are you telling me we are going to have to sacrifice Demetrius Jackson, Jordan Mickey, Gerald Green, Tyler Zeller, James Young to fit in two high upside rookies in a loaded draft class? Oh no!!
There's no guarantee that those 2 guys wouldnt be busts, until they prove otherwise you dont go around dumping known commodity. You dont want to carry too many young guys in the team, esp guys who dont know the system. Some of them are ready to step up in case of injuries, like Brown, while some are just too raw, like Bradley was.
-
Interesting idea, but not sure we need more picks. We already need roster spots for the Nets pick, Zizic, and Yabu, plus any free agent we might sign with our cap space. Also, not sure that adding two more high picks who need playing time to develop is the right thing for a team on the cusp of contention. I think if the pick falls to 3 or 4 and Danny doesn't like a player there, he's better off trading to the next draft or trying to do a 2-1 or 3-1 trade for a vet who fills a need on the team and opens up some spots.
That said, I don't think this happens. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity for a contending team to get a top 4 draft pick, and I think Danny will use it. As you said, maybe there is only one transformational player in this draft, but that's not always obvious on draft day. Any of the top 4 players are likely to end up as above average NBA players and unless Danny can bundle the pick up for a trade for a star, it's I think it's likely to get used where it is.
On the cusp of contention" is somewhat of a drastic statement, ecspecially when one of the owners of the team himself says the team is two superstars away from being a serious threat.
This is such a good draft 1-11 that if you make a trade like that you are not really sacrificing talent. Does anyone really think that Markkanen/Monk are much of a drop off from say Tatum/Smith? Of course for this trade to work Sacramento would sure have to think so, which isn't completely out of the realm of possibility given how incompetant that front offiCe has proven to be.
I think you exaggerate the depth of this draft. It's is top 4 strong, not top 2, but after that it drops off considerably. I don't like the trade proposal. I'd rather draft Jackson or Tatum. Frankly I'd draft Jackson no matter where we fall in the lotto.
-
I agree with that general sentiment of most of the responders that we should be looking to trade quantity for quality at this point, not the other way around.
-
The concept of trading down has already been discussed with the possibility of the Sixers getting the Lakers pick. In the Kings case, I think they might consider it for the #2 pick to get Fultz or Ball but not for anyone else. Their owner drives the team and he could become infatuated with either of those two.
If we were to get the 7 and 8 pick and the order played out as you suggested, I would probably take Markkanen and Robert Williams. They are both 4/5 players but very different and complimentary. I'd love for Markkenan to replace KO. Williams bring elite athleticism and defensive focus. Somewhat Noelish but more physical and strong and less quick. Elite length which he uses very well. Monk has the defensive deficiencies but he's also not a particularly good ball handle and passer.
-
Currently the Kings hold the 7th pick and the 8th pick. The 8th pick is the one they aquired from the Pelicans in the disastrous Demarcus Cousins trade, which is top 3 protected.
*this isnt a trade I would contemplate if the Celts finish with the top pick, as I believe Fultz is the only transformative prospect in this draft. However, if the pick falls to the 2-4 range, this is something I hope Danny would consider as there will still be plenty of high end prospects in that range. Specifically I have my eyes on Monk and Markkanen.
Let's say we end up with the 3rd pick and Sacramento really wants to trade up for Tatum, Ball, or Jackson.
Hypothetical draft order via realgm draft simulator..
PHX - Markelle FUltz
LAL - Lonzo Ball
*SAC - Jayson Tatum
ORL - Josh Jackson
PHI - Dennis Smith
NYK - Jonathan Isaac
*BOS - Malik Monk
*BOS - Lauri Markkanen
It would be even better if the Knicks took Monk, and we ended up with Isaac and Markkanen! There are far too many possibilities in this draft. I am extremely giddy to see how this all plays out. Of course there a lot of IFS in this scenario, but how many of you would be in favor of a trade like this?
I'd rather have Tatum or Jackson than Monk and Markkanen, but I reserve the right to change my mind on that front. I could also see us dealing Bradley for another pick in the first to clear more money for Hayward (if necessary depending on cap) and add another pick in a stacked draft.
This is a great draft so I'd love for the C's to get an extra pick in it. However, it would worry me to have so many rookies on a team that is planning on contending in the east. If the C's are already adding Yabu and Zizic, incorporating 2 more rookies in addition to them might be a bit much.
-
Interesting idea, but not sure we need more picks. We already need roster spots for the Nets pick, Zizic, and Yabu, plus any free agent we might sign with our cap space. Also, not sure that adding two more high picks who need playing time to develop is the right thing for a team on the cusp of contention. I think if the pick falls to 3 or 4 and Danny doesn't like a player there, he's better off trading to the next draft or trying to do a 2-1 or 3-1 trade for a vet who fills a need on the team and opens up some spots.
That said, I don't think this happens. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity for a contending team to get a top 4 draft pick, and I think Danny will use it. As you said, maybe there is only one transformational player in this draft, but that's not always obvious on draft day. Any of the top 4 players are likely to end up as above average NBA players and unless Danny can bundle the pick up for a trade for a star, it's I think it's likely to get used where it is.
On the cusp of contention" is somewhat of a drastic statement, ecspecially when one of the owners of the team himself says the team is two superstars away from being a serious threat.
This is such a good draft 1-11 that if you make a trade like that you are not really sacrificing talent. Does anyone really think that Markkanen/Monk are much of a drop off from say Tatum/Smith? Of course for this trade to work Sacramento would sure have to think so, which isn't completely out of the realm of possibility given how incompetant that front offiCe has proven to be.
I think you exaggerate the depth of this draft. It's is top 4 strong, not top 2, but after that it drops off considerably. I don't like the trade proposal. I'd rather draft Jackson or Tatum. Frankly I'd draft Jackson no matter where we fall in the lotto.
I disagree. This draft is deep not top heavy. I'm not sure I see any franchise players but there are a lot with star potential. Fultz seems to be more likely a Irving than a Harden. Miles Bridges at #12 in the DraftExpress mock is a very nice prospect. I could see him ending up the best of the forward prospects even though I like Jackson, Tatum, Isaac, etc
The only player in the top 12 that I wouldn't want is Smith. Ntilikina would be a question mark because I don't know enough about him.
-
Why is this an interesting concept? It's not interesting and it's not smart.
1. With Yab and Zizic coming roster spots are at a premium. Remember that after this year the Cs have another Brooklyn 1st (2018), Memphis 1st (2019), LAC 1st (2019) and still a bunch of 2nd rounders. Thus quantity is not what the Celtics need.
2. The Cs don't need another role player and the chances are considerably better for a star the higher you draft. The Cs need to play the odds. When you have a top 4 pick the odds are good that player will end up being a star or starter. The odds are much worse at 7-8. http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm
3. This draft is currently seen as having a good top 4 or 5 and then a drop off - Fultz, Ball, Jackson and Tatum are currently the solid top 4 and I figure one more guy will move up during the workouts. But there's a line between those guys and the next and there's no reason to drop down.
Monk and Markkanen would be instant upgrades over Rozier/Olynyk, which is pretty dang impressive for 19 year old freshman.
Laughable. Simply laughable.
Monk and Markkanen may be upgrades over Rozier/Olynyk eventually but it's highly probable they won't be instant upgrades. KO is now a savvy vet who plays decent defense and averages 10/5 in 20 minutes or so. Markkanen would be lucky to get those stats in his 1st year and Olynyk would still be the better team defender. Monk can shoot but replacing Rozier isn't going to happen because Monk has to learnt to play defense before Brad would let him see the court. That's not going to happen next year either.
So neither one is likely to be an instant upgrade and the chances of either developing into a star is far less likely than a #3 or #4 pick. It's a lose-lose.
TP...saved me a lot of time not having to type everything you said...especially about the rookies being instant upgrades. That's just silly. Heck just look at Smart and Brown's first season. Both struggled for a long time before showing some promise. I wouldn't expect Monk and Markkanen, lower taken players, to outplay two higher taken players in their rookie years, never mind vets like Olynyk and Rozier, (even if Rozier is just a 2nd year player).
-
You know who this trade makes sense for? Portland or Minnesota. They already have stars but need to upgrade their overall talent. If one of them got the #3, swapping it for Sac's picks would not be a bad idea.
Mike
-
The talent available at 2 - 4 is better than that at picks 7 and 8. We're more likely to have a shot at a future all-star the closer we are to #1.
-
I just don't see the continued fascination with draft pick accumulation. Celtics are past that point now.
Now is the time to add quality, not quantity from the draft.
-
I just don't see the continued fascination with draft pick accumulation. Celtics are past that point now.
Now is the time to add quality, not quantity from the draft.
I just don't get it either especially when the talent in the top 4 is better than the 5-11 area. That makes it doubly hard to understand.
-
I just don't see the continued fascination with draft pick accumulation. Celtics are past that point now.
Now is the time to add quality, not quantity from the draft.
I just don't get it either especially when the talent in the top 4 is better than the 5-11 area. That makes it doubly hard to understand.
I've been saying it on here for years. The "allure of potential", Nick.
-
The talent available at 2 - 4 is better than that at picks 7 and 8. We're more likely to have a shot at a future all-star the closer we are to #1.
How is Jayson Tatum that much better than Isaac or Bridges as a prospect?
-
I just don't see the continued fascination with draft pick accumulation. Celtics are past that point now.
Now is the time to add quality, not quantity from the draft.
I just don't get it either especially when the talent in the top 4 is better than the 5-11 area. That makes it doubly hard to understand.
I've been saying it on here for years. The "allure of potential", Nick.
TP Dons...yes you have.
-
You know who this trade makes sense for? Portland or Minnesota. They already have stars but need to upgrade their overall talent. If one of them got the #3, swapping it for Sac's picks would not be a bad idea.
Mike
I don't think trading down is a good idea for either of those teams. They both really need quality defenders so if they get #3 they should take Jackson or if he's not available probably Isaac. Portland has 3 picks in this draft so they don't need more. If I'm them, I either package them to move a bit higher or I take a chance on Giles with their pick that will be around #20. Bridges, Giles and maybe Peters would be a nice haul.
-
The talent available at 2 - 4 is better than that at picks 7 and 8. We're more likely to have a shot at a future all-star the closer we are to #1.
How is Jayson Tatum that much better than Isaac or Bridges as a prospect?
Production + measurables + scouting consensus?
-
I was listening to one of the NBA radio shows on XM radio with Tim Legler and apparently Philly wants Monk badly which kills the theory of trading down to get Monk after Philly picks.
-
The talent available at 2 - 4 is better than that at picks 7 and 8. We're more likely to have a shot at a future all-star the closer we are to #1.
How is Jayson Tatum that much better than Isaac or Bridges as a prospect?
Production + measurables + scouting consensus?
Tatum and Bridges production are very similar. Isaac's scoring has been more inconsistent but he's not that far behind. Bridges and Isaac project to be better defenders and are more athletic. They both actually have better 3pt%. Bridges is a bit shorter than you ideally want and Isaac will need to add strength/weight. Bridges has a lot less talent around him and Isaac is playing on a team with a lot of players getting minutes. They often substitute 4 players at once.
As far as scouting consensus, I think there is going to be wide variance on teams' draft boards. I don't think anyone qualifies as a tier 1 prospect yet but there are a lot of tier 2 prospects.
-
I was listening to one of the NBA radio shows on XM radio with Tim Legler and apparently Philly wants Monk badly which kills the theory of trading down to get Monk after Philly picks.
Makes sense. But doesnt mean Danny has to grab Monk
-
The talent available at 2 - 4 is better than that at picks 7 and 8. We're more likely to have a shot at a future all-star the closer we are to #1.
How is Jayson Tatum that much better than Isaac or Bridges as a prospect?
Production + measurables + scouting consensus?
Tatum and Bridges production are very similar. Isaac's scoring has been more inconsistent but he's not that far behind. Bridges and Isaac project to be better defenders and are more athletic. They both actually have better 3pt%. Bridges is a bit shorter than you ideally want and Isaac will need to add strength/weight. Bridges has a lot less talent around him and Isaac is playing on a team with a lot of players getting minutes. They often substitute 4 players at once.
As far as scouting consensus, I think there is going to be wide variance on teams' draft boards. I don't think anyone qualifies as a tier 1 prospect yet but there are a lot of tier 2 prospects.
Fultz has projected higher than Ben Simmons all season long. Ball has run about equal to Simmons' projections. That's two Tier 1 prospects.
-
I don't see the point in this type of trade. Now a trade where you get an established player and a later lottery pick for a higher one might make sense. Say Lavine and 8 for 3. Not saying do that but something like that.