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Around the League => Transaction Ideas and Rumors => Topic started by: chambers on February 22, 2017, 08:07:22 AM

Title: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: chambers on February 22, 2017, 08:07:22 AM
anyone else see this on NBA TV?

David Aldridge:
-"Jimmy Butler trade with Celtics is very real."
-"Main sticking point is Jae Crowder and Danny is refusing to include Crowder in any Butler" deal",
- But "Bulls are insisting."

I'm praying they are begging for 18' BRK pick + Crowder.

I hope Ainge holds out and gives them an extra pick somewhere instead.
Video here:

https://watch.nba.com/video/2017/02/21/20170221-gametime-nba-boston-celtics-interest-chicago-jimmy-butler
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: dreamgreen on February 22, 2017, 08:11:22 AM
Well I'd hope Butler would play the 3 for us so why is keeping Crowder a deal breaker? We don't need him to play the 2 we have plenty of guys for that.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: A Future of Stevens on February 22, 2017, 08:14:42 AM
I just really don't think Butler is worth the BRK17 and other MAJOR assets. Sure Bradley is a huge asset, but our guard jam and some other factors make him more expendable.

Danny loves Crowder's contract. It is as simple as that. It is the kind of contract that allows huge amounts of flexibility with the rest of the roster going forward. Now that he is flirting with great shooting splits and his typical hound dog defense, I can see Ainge's resistance.

BRK 17, and AB along with salary filler is fair. Throw in a couple of non BRK 1sts and the bulls should be very happy. We can't give up both BRK 17 and Brown or BRK18. we need to keep 2 of those assets.

I wish it was George that was available though.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: jambr380 on February 22, 2017, 08:16:38 AM
Well I'd hope Butler would play the 3 for us so why is keeping Crowder a deal breaker? We don't need him to play the 2 we have plenty of guys for that.

Because he only makes $7M/yr through 2020. Ainge is a master at managing the salary cap - letting their best cost controlled asset go will cause all kinds of problems moving forward.

If no BKN picks are involved (something like AB, Crowder, Memphis pick, and some 2nds), then maybe he will eventually budge. But, no way on Crowder, BKN pick, and additional assets.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: A Future of Stevens on February 22, 2017, 08:24:02 AM
Well I'd hope Butler would play the 3 for us so why is keeping Crowder a deal breaker? We don't need him to play the 2 we have plenty of guys for that.

Because he only makes $7M/yr through 2020. Ainge is a master at managing the salary cap - letting their best cost controlled asset go will cause all kinds of problems moving forward.

If no BKN picks are involved (something like AB, Crowder, Memphis pick, and some 2nds), then maybe he will eventually budge. But, no way on Crowder, BKN pick, and additional assets.

People still seem not to grasp just how valuable Jae's contract is. Next year when the cap is projected to be 108 million, he is going to be making a little under 6.8 million. That is 5.56% of the cap for a starting quality 3 and D role player who once in a while makes decent plays. Oh and he is under contract until UFA in 2020. He has arguably the best long term contract in the league. Lets stop acting like he is just a throw in for a deal. His value is real. Spot on in regards to what the trade should look like Jambr.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 22, 2017, 08:25:08 AM
Ainge is really killing me man...

First missing out on Ibaka because he didn't want to give up Rozier...
Then missing out on Cousins because of (at this point god only knows what reason)

Now he's halting a Butler trade because he doesn't want to give up Crowder - who plays the same position?!?!?!

AHHHH Danny, why must you be so infuriating!!!!

Only thing I can think of is maybe they want Bradley and Crowder and the 2018 1st, and Ainge is willing to offer Bradley, but he's not willing to offer both Bradley and Crowder - in which case I would understand.

It makes sense, as Bradley and Crowder make about $15M between them, so that would match Butler's contract.

 
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 22, 2017, 08:26:13 AM
Well I'd hope Butler would play the 3 for us so why is keeping Crowder a deal breaker? We don't need him to play the 2 we have plenty of guys for that.

Because he only makes $7M/yr through 2020. Ainge is a master at managing the salary cap - letting their best cost controlled asset go will cause all kinds of problems moving forward.

If no BKN picks are involved (something like AB, Crowder, Memphis pick, and some 2nds), then maybe he will eventually budge. But, no way on Crowder, BKN pick, and additional assets.

That's really a moot point though, because in Butler you have a (arguably) superstar who is making $17M a year for the next four years. 

That's even better value then a good starter (Crowder) on $7M a year.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: ssspence on February 22, 2017, 08:29:24 AM
Get them to take Bradley instead of Crowder. Paying him and Isiah next year is going to be dicey.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: PAOBoston on February 22, 2017, 08:31:28 AM
I guess it depends on what the rest of the package is. If it's BRK pick + Bradley already and CHI wants Crowder as well, then Ainge is correct I'm drawing a line in the sand. That would be too much.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 22, 2017, 08:32:41 AM
You know what, screw it- I think I'd do it anyway.

Bradley + Crowder + 2018 Brooklyn 1st

It's a steep price, but it's fair. 

For the remainder of this year, we would probably start Smart/Butler - I can live with that.  That would be a seriously capable perimeter defence which would help cover for Thomas' defensive deficiencies....while Butler's scoring would help make up for Smart's lack of offence.   

We probably wouldn't take a huge step forward this year as we'd have chemstry adjustments, etc, but we should at least hold steady. 

Then after the season (since Butler makes about the same as Bradley and Crowder combined) we would still full cap flexibility to go after a max free agent (Hayward, Millsap, Griffin) and thee fact that we now have Thomas/Butler/Horford makes it more appealing for one of those guys to come here.

Plus we would still retain the 2017 Nets Pick.

So we sacrifice a little bit this year maybe, for a HUGE payoff next year as we potentially move forward with Thomas, Fultz, Butler, Millsap/Griffin, Horford. 

Or maybe Thomas, Butler, Hayward, Horford, Olynyk (while Zizic learns the ropes). 

I'd be willing to take that. 
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: saltlover on February 22, 2017, 08:33:31 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: footey on February 22, 2017, 08:36:37 AM
I saw this too. He was vague about what picks were involved. Said that was the easy part, which of course is not true. Take what he said with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 22, 2017, 08:38:29 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: KGs Knee on February 22, 2017, 08:40:06 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

This is not true at all. Not when you are replacing him with a better player who plays the same position.

Butler at his contract better value than Crowder at his contract.

Chicago can have one of Bradley or Crowder, I really don't care which, just not both.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: saltlover on February 22, 2017, 08:45:54 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: saltlover on February 22, 2017, 08:47:26 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

This is not true at all. Not when you are replacing him with a better player who plays the same position.

Butler at his contract better value than Crowder at his contract.

Chicago can have one of Bradley or Crowder, I really don't care which, just not both.

You should care.  If the Bulls get Bradley, Crowder remains a Celtic.  If the Bulls get Crowder, Bradley leaves after next year, so you've lost both, which you just said you didn't want.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Phantom255x on February 22, 2017, 08:49:09 AM
Look I love Butler.

But 2017 BKN Pick, Bradley AND Crowder + more for Butler?

NO WAY.

Way to go Danny! Resist.

And come on people, NO the Bulls aren't fine with 2018 BKN they are obviously asking for the 2017 BKN Pick.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: dreamgreen on February 22, 2017, 08:49:23 AM
People have to realize if you want to add better talent you have to trade pieces that other teams want.

AB, Crowder and this years Nets pick is a package teams want and I would do that for either Butler or preferably George. IMO it's a good deal for both teams.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: KGs Knee on February 22, 2017, 08:50:10 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

You don't actually know this for a fact, you are just guessing.

Boston will have Bird Right's on all of these players, and thus can afford them if they are willing to pay the luxury tax bill.

I would be willing to bet Wyc is willing to pay it for at least a few years, until Boston starts to get hit with the repeater tax.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: JBcat on February 22, 2017, 08:52:51 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

I agree, and IMO people are throwing easily overpays for Butler, more than the Kings received for Cousins.

If we are going to look at recent trade history what we should consider giving up look at the Love trade.  A first in Wiggins, a decreasing prospect in Bennett and salary but a solid player in Thaddeus Young (part of a 3 way trade).

So I would say the Nets 17, Rozier, and any combo of Johnson, JJ, and Zeller would be the most I would go. Maybe 1 or 2 late picks but that's it. Start Butler at SF. You then have Smart, Crowder, and Brown backing up the 1-4 spots (for small ball 4 lineups). 

Also name a team where the Bulls can do better.  That Nets pick is gold for a trade.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Phantom255x on February 22, 2017, 08:53:31 AM
People have to realize if you want to add better talent you have to trade pieces that other teams want.

AB, Crowder and this years Nets pick is a package teams want and I would do that for either Butler or preferably George. IMO it's a good deal for both teams.

Sorry but I don't see how Butler is that much better than Bradley+Crowder.

Also seeing the Cousins deal recently I'm a lot more hesitant to give that up for Butler.

I'd do 2017 BKN Pick + Bradley but not Bradley + Crowder. Sorry.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: The Oracle on February 22, 2017, 08:55:31 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

This is not true at all. Not when you are replacing him with a better player who plays the same position.

Butler at his contract better value than Crowder at his contract.

Chicago can have one of Bradley or Crowder, I really don't care which, just not both.
They play the same position (wing) of which there are 2 or more on the floor at all times anymore.  The idea is to pair Crowder/Butler and not Bradley/Butler, it allows for you to switch everything much better on defense because they can both guard up and down a position+.  Bradley/I.T. is just to small and causes to many problems.  G.S. is a good example with Thompson/Durant/Iggy, the C's want Butler/Crowder/Smart and maybe still Brown.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: rickyfan3.0... on February 22, 2017, 08:55:33 AM
You trade for Butler and Crowder becomes a $7mill backup. Don't see much value in that.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Darío SpanishFan on February 22, 2017, 09:01:36 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

This. Crowder's salary makes him a tremendous asset in 2018, when we have to pay big dollars to our guards.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: jambr380 on February 22, 2017, 09:01:53 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

First off, we couldn't agree more on this issue so thanks for helping to spell that out.

With that said, and I mentioned this in the other thread, wouldn't trading Jae, AB, and BKN '17 be better than the same trade with the BKN '18 (a common package I see on CB)? If I am not mistaken, the additional rookie salary on top of the $15.6M AB/Crowder are scheduled to make next year would actually open up max cap space to sign Hayward, wouldn't it?

But I will reiterate that I am not in favor of any trade before we see what happens this summer first. Casually throwing around our best assets/picks is driving me nuts - just another 30 hours before it's over.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: KGs Knee on February 22, 2017, 09:04:35 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

This is not true at all. Not when you are replacing him with a better player who plays the same position.

Butler at his contract better value than Crowder at his contract.

Chicago can have one of Bradley or Crowder, I really don't care which, just not both.
They play the same position (wing) of which there are 2 or more on the floor at all times anymore.  The idea is to pair Crowder/Butler and not Bradley/Butler, it allows for you to switch everything much better on defense because they can both guard up and down a position+.  Bradley/I.T. is just to small and causes to many problems.  G.S. is a good example with Thompson/Durant/Iggy, the C's want Butler/Crowder/Smart and maybe still Brown.

Well, Bradley's injuries are a concern, I'll concede that. That is the one thing that can change the equation.

But as for which pairing I prefer, I think I'd prefer Butler/Bradley over Crowder/Butler.

Bradley is simply a better player than Crowder, on both ends of the court. I'm not concerned about the minimal size difference between Crowder an Bradley. It's not really much of an impact.

I should note, I'm just not really a Crowder fan, and think he's wildly overrated around here.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: The Oracle on February 22, 2017, 09:05:27 AM
You trade for Butler and Crowder becomes a $7mill backup. Don't see much value in that.
No he doesn't!  The C's would start I.T./Butler/Crowder with Smart/Brown off the bench.  Ideally I hope Danny is sticking to offering Bradley with Rozier or Brown and a Brooklyn pick.  Chicago may want Crowder instead of Bradley.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: TheTruthFot18 on February 22, 2017, 09:07:47 AM
You trade for Butler and Crowder becomes a $7mill backup. Don't see much value in that.

Um do you see how much bench players make now? Maybe his salary would be dumb 5 years ago but now its still a bargain off the bench. Kanter makes $20 mil, and a bunch of other guys are making +/- $10 mil to come off the bench.

I challenge to you find a better bench player than Crowder not on a rookie contract who costs less and produces just as much or more.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 22, 2017, 09:09:54 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 22, 2017, 09:11:06 AM
You trade for Butler and Crowder becomes a $7mill backup. Don't see much value in that.

Um do you see how much bench players make now? Maybe his salary would be dumb 5 years ago but now its still a bargain off the bench. Kanter makes $20 mil, and a bunch of other guys are making +/- $10 mil to come off the bench.

I challenge to you find a better bench player than Crowder not on a rookie contract who costs less and produces just as much or more.

Avery Bradley hahaha
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: CoachBo on February 22, 2017, 09:12:15 AM
First, this is all posturing. Ainge isn't stupid enough to let a role player hang up a chance to acquire a Top 10 player in the league.

Second, as for the unrequited love of Crowder's contract in this thread, were that true - and I doubt it is - then Celtics fans would have a CLEAR message from Grousbeck and the owners: We're cheap, and we're happy just being relevant. Forget about Banner 18.

If y'all are so attached to Jae Crowder, then maybe Ainge should offer Chitown TGJB - The Great Jaylen Brown.

Personally, I'd need to know what the proposed deal is to fully evaluate what Aldridge is saying. I know this: I'm ready to move Avery Bradley. Achilles issues don't just go away in the dark of night, and when they return, value plummets.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: jambr380 on February 22, 2017, 09:14:23 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   

I know I am not SL, but check my other posts (here and in the Paul George/Hayward one). Butler makes $18.7M next year while Crowder and AB make a combined $15.6M. We are already going to be cutting it really close (hoping NOT to get #1 or #2 pick in the draft) to be able to sign Hayward. Also, it is assumed that Mickey, KO, JJ, Amir, Zeller, Jackson, Young, GG, etc are not on the team next year.

As I said, you could probably make it work with selling off the '17 pick along with AB/Crowder, but not just AB/Crowder.

Edit: I see you did respond in the other thread - sorry if I came off snarky.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: JBcat on February 22, 2017, 09:20:34 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   

Yeah budgets matter but it's not a hard cap, and we have their bird rights to go over the cap and into tax territory if they wished to do so.  This ownership is willing to pay.  It shouldn't be a big concern IMO.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: bdm860 on February 22, 2017, 09:28:04 AM
That link from the OP didn't work for me, so if you want to watch the video try this link (video is half way down):
http://www.nba.com/article/2017/02/22/trade-deadline-buzz-feb-22-2017

One thing Aldridge says is:

"Danny would like to go into the playoffs with Smart, Bradley, Crowder defensively along with Butler, Horford, Thomas offensively, and I think he feels that's the only way he's going to compete with a team like Cleveland.  And Chicago, rightly saying, you want our best player, you can't just do it for picks."

So maybe it's not even a Crowder vs Bradley issue?  Maybe Ainge is only looking to trade Brown + 1 Nets pick + (other non-Nets pick/draft rights/Rozier + salary filler)?  Man if Danny could pull that off.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: hpantazo on February 22, 2017, 09:28:34 AM
I think Ainge is trying to get both Butler and George, that's why he won't move the Nets 2017 pick or Crowder for Butler.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: gift on February 22, 2017, 09:33:17 AM
First, this is all posturing. Ainge isn't stupid enough to let a role player hang up a chance to acquire a Top 10 player in the league.

Second, as for the unrequited love of Crowder's contract in this thread, were that true - and I doubt it is - then Celtics fans would have a CLEAR message from Grousbeck and the owners: We're cheap, and we're happy just being relevant. Forget about Banner 18.

If y'all are so attached to Jae Crowder, then maybe Ainge should offer Chitown TGJB - The Great Jaylen Brown.

Personally, I'd need to know what the proposed deal is to fully evaluate what Aldridge is saying. I know this: I'm ready to move Avery Bradley. Achilles issues don't just go away in the dark of night, and when they return, value plummets.

The cheap contract isn't just value for the owners' pockets. It's value in the effort of team building. Whether or not it's overvalued is a different argument. But I don't think it's accurate to assume it's about the financial bottom line.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: chambers on February 22, 2017, 09:35:13 AM
First, this is all posturing. Ainge isn't stupid enough to let a role player hang up a chance to acquire a Top 10 player in the league.

Second, as for the unrequited love of Crowder's contract in this thread, were that true - and I doubt it is - then Celtics fans would have a CLEAR message from Grousbeck and the owners: We're cheap, and we're happy just being relevant. Forget about Banner 18.

If y'all are so attached to Jae Crowder, then maybe Ainge should offer Chitown TGJB - The Great Jaylen Brown.

Personally, I'd need to know what the proposed deal is to fully evaluate what Aldridge is saying. I know this: I'm ready to move Avery Bradley. Achilles issues don't just go away in the dark of night, and when they return, value plummets.


wooooooossshhhhhhhhhhhhh
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: number_n9ne on February 22, 2017, 09:37:22 AM
Selfishly, I hope Crowder stays a sticking point, because I picked up a Crowder jersey during that 80% off sale last week hahaha. This already happened to me once with Rondo... Bought a jersey, traded the next week. Don't break my heart again Ainge!

Seriously tho, keep Crowder, have Butler play SG, and get more length next to Thomas. I love Bradley but him, Thomas and Smart can't all get paid.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 22, 2017, 09:38:05 AM
Ainge is really killing me man...

First missing out on Ibaka because he didn't want to give up Rozier...
Then missing out on Cousins because of (at this point god only knows what reason)


You might not agree with the reason, but what the reason is has been extremely clear. We think he's toxic.


As for the actual trade I'd have to see what else we're willing to offer. If it's BRK 18 and Bradley then I don't blame us for not wanting to throw Crowder in on top. His contract is still an amazing deal for a first wing off the bench, and three really good (one potentially great in the pick) assets seems like too much if they're legit willing to move on from Butler.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 22, 2017, 09:38:08 AM
I think Ainge is trying to get both Butler and George, that's why he won't move the Nets 2017 pick or Crowder for Butler.

I agree ....he needs both to compete , add Zizic , AL , Smart and IT .   LeBron is not safe anymore.

Subtract Rozier, Crowder , Bradley , Zeller, KO , Nets 2017 and 2018 and couple other picks and end up,

Adding two of these three ....George ,Butler or Drummond........there is enough to Compete.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: chambers on February 22, 2017, 09:39:13 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   

Yeah budgets matter but it's not a hard cap, and we have their bird rights to go over the cap and into tax territory if they wished to do so.  This ownership is willing to pay.  It shouldn't be a big concern IMO.
Saltlover will explain the financial benefits, but basically you can't get a Jae Crowder level player for anthing less than 15 million now.
Having Jae is like having another 15-20 million player on the books for 7 milion. That's a massive difference in terms of money to spend on playoff bolstering and bench bolstering.

Going into the playoffs for the next 3 years, if we want to beat GSW, we are going to want Jae as either our starting 3 or our 6th man with Marcus.

His contract is crucial to building a contender that could actually beat the Cavs.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: CoachBo on February 22, 2017, 09:39:48 AM
First, this is all posturing. Ainge isn't stupid enough to let a role player hang up a chance to acquire a Top 10 player in the league.

Second, as for the unrequited love of Crowder's contract in this thread, were that true - and I doubt it is - then Celtics fans would have a CLEAR message from Grousbeck and the owners: We're cheap, and we're happy just being relevant. Forget about Banner 18.

If y'all are so attached to Jae Crowder, then maybe Ainge should offer Chitown TGJB - The Great Jaylen Brown.

Personally, I'd need to know what the proposed deal is to fully evaluate what Aldridge is saying. I know this: I'm ready to move Avery Bradley. Achilles issues don't just go away in the dark of night, and when they return, value plummets.

The cheap contract isn't just value for the owners' pockets. It's value in the effort of team building. Whether or not it's overvalued is a different argument. But I don't think it's accurate to assume it's about the financial bottom line.

If you're serious about a championship, you don't allow a role player on a cheap contract to become an albatross - unless you've got the Green Teamer glasses on as an owner and said role player is one of your "favorites."

If that's the case, you're not going to build a champion anyway. Your judgment is fatally clouded.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: BitterJim on February 22, 2017, 09:40:08 AM
Selfishly, I hope Crowder stays a sticking point, because I picked up a Crowder jersey during that 80% off sale last week hahaha. This already happened to me once with Rondo... Bought a jersey, traded the next week. Don't break my heart again Ainge!

Seriously tho, keep Crowder, have Butler play SG, and get more length next to Thomas. I love Bradley but him, Thomas and Smart can't all get paid.

You should have known better and bought a Zeller or Young jersey
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: saltlover on February 22, 2017, 09:45:21 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

You don't actually know this for a fact, you are just guessing.

Boston will have Bird Right's on all of these players, and thus can afford them if they are willing to pay the luxury tax bill.

I would be willing to bet Wyc is willing to pay it for at least a few years, until Boston starts to get hit with the repeater tax.

Whatever man.  Keep living in happy fairy land where the Celtics are willing to pay $30 million a year in luxury tax bills.  Even keeping Crowder, along with Smart, IT, Butler, and Horford, is very likely to send the team a few million over the tax line, and hit the team with a $5-10 million bill.  Every dollar more that Bradley makes more than Crowder will cost the team about $2.50 in luxury tax.  So when Crowder is scheduled to make $7.2 million in 2018, if Bradley gets $15.2 million (a perfectly reasonable number, if not arguably low), the Celtics will owe an extra $20 million in tax bills.  And then the next summer, when Butler opts out and has his salary increase by another $12 million?  That's easily an additional $30 million in tax bills, bringing the total to near $60 million. 

That isn't sustainable, and the difference between Bradley and Crowder, in terms of long-term planning, is immense.  A team with IT, Smart, Butler, Crowder, and Horford as the top 5 probably has a total luxury tax bill of $35 million over the next three seasons.  Swapping in Bradley for Crowder is about $90 million over the same time.  That's a lot of money, and I strongly suspect more than they're willing to pay to keep Bradley (considering I'm guessing he makes about $30 million over those final two seasons as well).  In other words, $90 million to keep Bradley the extra two years that Crowder has on his contract.

Crowder is untouchable.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: wdleehi on February 22, 2017, 09:45:36 AM
I might get upset if I knew what the rest of the offered package was. 


Then again, I might be upset if I knew what the rest of offered package was before the possible addition of Crowder.


Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: number_n9ne on February 22, 2017, 09:46:40 AM
Selfishly, I hope Crowder stays a sticking point, because I picked up a Crowder jersey during that 80% off sale last week hahaha. This already happened to me once with Rondo... Bought a jersey, traded the next week. Don't break my heart again Ainge!

Seriously tho, keep Crowder, have Butler play SG, and get more length next to Thomas. I love Bradley but him, Thomas and Smart can't all get paid.

You should have known better and bought a Zeller or Young jersey

Hahahaha TP!
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Atzar on February 22, 2017, 09:49:44 AM
I might get upset if I knew what the rest of the offered package was. 


Then again, I might be upset if I knew what the rest of offered package was before the possible addition of Crowder.

Pretty much my thoughts as well.

Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: RJ87 on February 22, 2017, 09:51:59 AM
If we get to keep AB and Smart, move Crowder and lets get on with it. Bulls aren't going to just give us Jimmy because we say so,we're going to actually have to give them something in return.

Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: A Future of Stevens on February 22, 2017, 09:52:06 AM
I am just still worried about Butler's attitude problems. Like I don't want him to start throwing IT and smart under the bus if the team loses a couple games in the season. He has already done that once.

Not cousins level of hot head, but it is a tiny pink flag.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: JHTruth on February 22, 2017, 09:52:12 AM
If Danny truly passes on Butler just to keep Crowder, then that is simply madness. Insanity. You're going to pass on a two-way stud like Butler just to keep Crowder? ****
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Fan from VT on February 22, 2017, 09:53:10 AM
First, this is all posturing. Ainge isn't stupid enough to let a role player hang up a chance to acquire a Top 10 player in the league.

Second, as for the unrequited love of Crowder's contract in this thread, were that true - and I doubt it is - then Celtics fans would have a CLEAR message from Grousbeck and the owners: We're cheap, and we're happy just being relevant. Forget about Banner 18.

If y'all are so attached to Jae Crowder, then maybe Ainge should offer Chitown TGJB - The Great Jaylen Brown.

Personally, I'd need to know what the proposed deal is to fully evaluate what Aldridge is saying. I know this: I'm ready to move Avery Bradley. Achilles issues don't just go away in the dark of night, and when they return, value plummets.

The cheap contract isn't just value for the owners' pockets. It's value in the effort of team building. Whether or not it's overvalued is a different argument. But I don't think it's accurate to assume it's about the financial bottom line.

If you're serious about a championship, you don't allow a role player on a cheap contract to become an albatross - unless you've got the Green Teamer glasses on as an owner and said role player is one of your "favorites."

If that's the case, you're not going to build a champion anyway. Your judgment is fatally clouded.

It's definitely more complicated than that. This isn't baseball; bill barnwell, when writing about NFL, talks about "opportunity costs" a lot. Due to the cap, players are not added in a vacuum, and additions have consequences, and it it worth keeping those in perspective. We don't know a lot of behind the scenes stuff, but grabbing Butler and his contract now represents loss of players and loss of space. So it's not just "is Butler better than Crowder," but "for the next 3 years, is Butler better than Hayward, Fulz/Ball/Jackson, and Crowder," which is a legit question. Butler is not on the level of Durant/James/Anthony Davis/Curry, etc. He has a shaky 3 point shot, which makes me worried a little about the duration and sustainability of his prime. Also, this is by far his best year, by a lot, which makes me legit concerned it is not the "new normal," but rather could easily be a bit of a fluke year. So you also have to keep in mind you might be giving up what we'd be giving up for the Jimmy Butler of last year and the year before, rather than the Butler of this year, which is another half step down.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Bobshot on February 22, 2017, 09:55:11 AM
Let's look at this another way.

Butler's contract is about $20M per year for 3 years. That's about $10M lower than what he would cost as a max FA this summer.

The $10M savings exceeds Crowder's salary.

It's still a buy with Crowder. Ainge's payroll guy has already pointed that out to him. He'll cave, and the Bulls know it.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Androslav on February 22, 2017, 09:56:55 AM
Selfishly, I hope Crowder stays a sticking point, because I picked up a Crowder jersey during that 80% off sale last week hahaha. This already happened to me once with Rondo... Bought a jersey, traded the next week. Don't break my heart again Ainge!

Seriously tho, keep Crowder, have Butler play SG, and get more length next to Thomas. I love Bradley but him, Thomas and Smart can't all get paid.
You should have known better and bought a Zeller or Young jersey

Hahahaha TP!
TP, LOL
Can you buy an AD jersey?
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: The Oracle on February 22, 2017, 09:57:29 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

You don't actually know this for a fact, you are just guessing.

Boston will have Bird Right's on all of these players, and thus can afford them if they are willing to pay the luxury tax bill.

I would be willing to bet Wyc is willing to pay it for at least a few years, until Boston starts to get hit with the repeater tax.

Whatever man.  Keep living in happy fairy land where the Celtics are willing to pay $30 million a year in luxury tax bills.  Even keeping Crowder, along with Smart, IT, Butler, and Horford, is very likely to send the team a few million over the tax line, and hit the team with a $5-10 million bill.  Every dollar more that Bradley makes more than Crowder will cost the team about $2.50 in luxury tax.  So when Crowder is scheduled to make $7.2 million in 2018, if Bradley gets $15.2 million (a perfectly reasonable number, if not arguably low), the Celtics will owe an extra $20 million in tax bills.  And then the next summer, when Butler opts out and has his salary increase by another $12 million?  That's easily an additional $30 million in tax bills, bringing the total to near $60 million. 

That isn't sustainable, and the difference between Bradley and Crowder, in terms of long-term planning, is immense.  A team with IT, Smart, Butler, Crowder, and Horford as the top 5 probably has a total luxury tax bill of $35 million over the next three seasons.  Swapping in Bradley for Crowder is about $90 million over the same time.  That's a lot of money, and I strongly suspect more than they're willing to pay to keep Bradley (considering I'm guessing he makes about $30 million over those final two seasons as well).  In other words, $90 million to keep Bradley the extra two years that Crowder has on his contract.

Crowder is untouchable.
Exactly!  You simply cannot trade away all of the cheap contracts and keep all the guys that are staring at huge pay increases.  The C's are going to pay some luxury tax for sure but there are limits.  Crowder is the only for sure rotation guy on a cheep deal going forward beyond next year.  Great explanation Saltlover!
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: BitterJim on February 22, 2017, 09:59:28 AM
If Danny truly passes on Butler just to keep Crowder, then that is simply madness. Insanity. You're going to pass on a two-way stud like Butler just to keep Crowder? ****

Depends on the package.  If the sticking point is Crowder in a deal like AB+Crowder+Nets 2017 pick, I don't blame him.  If Crowder's the holdup in a straight up swap, then it's a problem.  But without knowing more about the situation, you can't say that it's "madness" to not want to include him.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: kozlodoev on February 22, 2017, 10:02:20 AM
Butler's contract is about $20M per year for 3 years. That's about $10M lower than what he would cost as a max FA this summer.

The $10M savings exceeds Crowder's salary.
Now take those "excessive savings" and go sign someone as good as Crowder with them, how is that going to work? We're not trying to save Wyc and co's money here.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Celts Fan 508 on February 22, 2017, 10:04:36 AM
Selfishly, I hope Crowder stays a sticking point, because I picked up a Crowder jersey during that 80% off sale last week hahaha. This already happened to me once with Rondo... Bought a jersey, traded the next week. Don't break my heart again Ainge!

Seriously tho, keep Crowder, have Butler play SG, and get more length next to Thomas. I love Bradley but him, Thomas and Smart can't all get paid.

You should have known better and bought a Zeller or Young jersey

Hahahaha TP!

Please go buy a Pablo Sandoval jersey ASAP!
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: nickagneta on February 22, 2017, 10:08:33 AM
Pretty difficult to get emotional on this subject when we don't know what the total package is that the Bulls are asking for. If Ainge has already decided to give up a Nets pick and Brown, then I can see his reluctance to want to give up his starting SF on one of the best long term contracts in the league to fill out that package. An expiring contract like Zeller should be enough to get that deal. If the package is just the Nets pick and filler, then holding back Crowder is hurting the team, throw him in.

If the package is....

then......

I could go on for all sorts of combos. Best to wait to see what the deal is before getting upset about who is or isn't in the trade.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: BlackCeltic on February 22, 2017, 10:09:33 AM
I would give up Avery and Crowder if it means we hang on to our 17 Nets pick. Once that shoe dropped, Id trade the 17 Nets pick for PG13 or Drummond.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: LGC88 on February 22, 2017, 10:11:29 AM
Pretty difficult to get emotional on this subject when we don't know what the total package is that the Bulls are asking for. If Ainge has already decided to give up a Nets pick and Brown, then I can see his reluctance to want to give up his starting SF on one of the best long term contracts in the league to fill out that package. An expiring contract like Zeller should be enough to get that deal. If the package is just the Nets pick and filler, then holding back Crowder is hurting the team, throw him in.

If the package is....

then......

I could go on for all sorts of combos. Best to wait to see what the deal is before getting upset about who is or isn't in the trade.

Some can't handle the pressure, they need to blow some steam for any reason  ;D
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Donoghus on February 22, 2017, 10:14:19 AM
3PM tomm can't come soon enough...  :P
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Big333223 on February 22, 2017, 10:15:13 AM
Right around the 59 min. mark, they talk a little bit about Boston and Jimmy Butler (and Big Wos says something incomprehensibly stupid that no one even bothers to respond to). Windhorst calls the Boston/Butler situation "a game of chicken" that will go down to the wire on Thursday, if anything happens at all.

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=18735559
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: BaronV on February 22, 2017, 10:18:04 AM
I read through this thread and saw people discussing stats and salary regarding Jae.  But I didn't see any references to leadership or heart.  The Celtics quick rise to respectability in the 2014-2015 season didn't happen when we traded for IT in Feb 2015.  It happened when we got Crowder in Dec. 2014.  Although he wasn't the center of that deal (people thought that would be Wright), Crowder's impact on the team was immediately obvious.  He was a winner.  You could see that in his interactions with the other players, with the coaches, and with the results on the floor.  Players like that don't always fit into the traditional mold of a star in their sport. 

I'm guessing based on this that Brad and Danny see Jae's contributions in practice, in the locker room, and on the floor as extremely valuable to the team.   Replacing that isn't easy, and tearing it out mid-season could negatively impact this team's makeup in ways that are hard to predict and can take time to recover from. I think this leadership factor in addition to his contract and his skills are what is making this a tough decision for Danny. 
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 22, 2017, 10:19:16 AM

I could go on for all sorts of combos. Best to wait to see what the deal is before getting upset about who is or isn't in the trade.

So true.

I mean, salary issues aside, I would guess that even people like SL would be OK with the trade if it was Crowder for Butler straight up. (Or Crowder plus Zeller and KO, let's say - something that works with the cap).

I'm sure that's an extreme example, but I think the point holds.

Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: coffee425 on February 22, 2017, 10:24:06 AM
Right around the 59 min. mark, they talk a little bit about Boston and Jimmy Butler (and Big Wos says something incomprehensibly stupid that no one even bothers to respond to). Windhorst calls the Boston/Butler situation "a game of chicken" that will go down to the wire on Thursday, if anything happens at all.

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=18735559

I'll respond. He's right.
Jaylen Brown, Fultz, and whoever 2018 pick is.... that's 5 years before they even contend. So no one is scared of this "core".
Ask OKC. They took KD in 2006 and hit on two more MVP candidates after that. And got destroyed in the 2012 finals
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Ogaju on February 22, 2017, 10:24:20 AM
I read through this thread and saw people discussing stats and salary regarding Jae.  But I didn't see any references to leadership or heart.  The Celtics quick rise to respectability in the 2014-2015 season didn't happen when we traded for IT in Feb 2015.  It happened when we got Crowder in Dec. 2014.  Although he wasn't the center of that deal (people thought that would be Wright), Crowder's impact on the team was immediately obvious.  He was a winner.  You could see that in his interactions with the other players, with the coaches, and with the results on the floor.  Players like that don't always fit into the traditional mold of a star in their sport. 

I'm guessing based on this that Brad and Danny see Jae's contributions in practice, in the locker room, and on the floor as extremely valuable to the team.   Replacing that isn't easy, and tearing it out mid-season could negatively impact this team's makeup in ways that are hard to predict and can take time to recover from. I think this leadership factor in addition to his contract and his skills are what is making this a tough decision for Danny.

TP ... he is a glue guy, that is why they all want him and he is a glue guy with a basement bargain contract. Danny should really draw a line in the sand with Crowder. Let the other teams groom their own Crowder. You do not let players like that go for all the reasons given by SL.

TP to SL and Hpantazo for excellent takes in this thread.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: LGC88 on February 22, 2017, 10:26:06 AM
I read through this thread and saw people discussing stats and salary regarding Jae.  But I didn't see any references to leadership or heart.  The Celtics quick rise to respectability in the 2014-2015 season didn't happen when we traded for IT in Feb 2015.  It happened when we got Crowder in Dec. 2014.  Although he wasn't the center of that deal (people thought that would be Wright), Crowder's impact on the team was immediately obvious.  He was a winner.  You could see that in his interactions with the other players, with the coaches, and with the results on the floor.  Players like that don't always fit into the traditional mold of a star in their sport. 

I'm guessing based on this that Brad and Danny see Jae's contributions in practice, in the locker room, and on the floor as extremely valuable to the team.   Replacing that isn't easy, and tearing it out mid-season could negatively impact this team's makeup in ways that are hard to predict and can take time to recover from. I think this leadership factor in addition to his contract and his skills are what is making this a tough decision for Danny.

That's a big TP for you sir. Well said !
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Cman on February 22, 2017, 10:29:02 AM
I read through this thread and saw people discussing stats and salary regarding Jae.  But I didn't see any references to leadership or heart.  The Celtics quick rise to respectability in the 2014-2015 season didn't happen when we traded for IT in Feb 2015.  It happened when we got Crowder in Dec. 2014.  Although he wasn't the center of that deal (people thought that would be Wright), Crowder's impact on the team was immediately obvious.  He was a winner.  You could see that in his interactions with the other players, with the coaches, and with the results on the floor.  Players like that don't always fit into the traditional mold of a star in their sport. 

I'm guessing based on this that Brad and Danny see Jae's contributions in practice, in the locker room, and on the floor as extremely valuable to the team.   Replacing that isn't easy, and tearing it out mid-season could negatively impact this team's makeup in ways that are hard to predict and can take time to recover from. I think this leadership factor in addition to his contract and his skills are what is making this a tough decision for Danny.

Let me reiterate what others have said: TP!
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: coffee425 on February 22, 2017, 10:29:34 AM
I read through this thread and saw people discussing stats and salary regarding Jae.  But I didn't see any references to leadership or heart.  The Celtics quick rise to respectability in the 2014-2015 season didn't happen when we traded for IT in Feb 2015.  It happened when we got Crowder in Dec. 2014.  Although he wasn't the center of that deal (people thought that would be Wright), Crowder's impact on the team was immediately obvious.  He was a winner.  You could see that in his interactions with the other players, with the coaches, and with the results on the floor.  Players like that don't always fit into the traditional mold of a star in their sport. 

I'm guessing based on this that Brad and Danny see Jae's contributions in practice, in the locker room, and on the floor as extremely valuable to the team.   Replacing that isn't easy, and tearing it out mid-season could negatively impact this team's makeup in ways that are hard to predict and can take time to recover from. I think this leadership factor in addition to his contract and his skills are what is making this a tough decision for Danny.

That's a big TP for you sir. Well said !

He has won nothing. Except the hearts of the Boston faithful.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: bdm860 on February 22, 2017, 10:30:12 AM
Also, this is by far his best year, by a lot, which makes me legit concerned it is not the "new normal," but rather could easily be a bit of a fluke year. So you also have to keep in mind you might be giving up what we'd be giving up for the Jimmy Butler of last year and the year before, rather than the Butler of this year, which is another half step down.

How often do guys have fluke years in the middle of a new contract?

If this was a contract year, maybe there should be concern, but when a guy just started a new contract, and is still playing great, I'd feel good about that player.

And I don't think it's that much of a fluke year to begin with, but more of an increased role with Rose/Gasol/Noah gone that's helping his points look good, but most of his other stats are consistent to what he's put up over the last couple of years.  Getting Jimmy Butler from 1-2 years ago is fine, in fact, it's what I'd expect from him if he came to Boston (because he wouldn't be taking on as much of the team's burden as he is in Chicago right now).
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 22, 2017, 10:32:33 AM
I read through this thread and saw people discussing stats and salary regarding Jae.  But I didn't see any references to leadership or heart.  The Celtics quick rise to respectability in the 2014-2015 season didn't happen when we traded for IT in Feb 2015.  It happened when we got Crowder in Dec. 2014.  Although he wasn't the center of that deal (people thought that would be Wright), Crowder's impact on the team was immediately obvious.  He was a winner.  You could see that in his interactions with the other players, with the coaches, and with the results on the floor.  Players like that don't always fit into the traditional mold of a star in their sport. 

I'm guessing based on this that Brad and Danny see Jae's contributions in practice, in the locker room, and on the floor as extremely valuable to the team.   Replacing that isn't easy, and tearing it out mid-season could negatively impact this team's makeup in ways that are hard to predict and can take time to recover from. I think this leadership factor in addition to his contract and his skills are what is making this a tough decision for Danny.

Good characterization - it's more than cheap production, character and effort matter for setting the example.

Can't overweight those things; he'll never be a great player, and remains expendable in the right situation, but it makes him a guy you don't let go of lightly.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: dreamgreen on February 22, 2017, 10:34:31 AM
People have to realize if you want to add better talent you have to trade pieces that other teams want.

AB, Crowder and this years Nets pick is a package teams want and I would do that for either Butler or preferably George. IMO it's a good deal for both teams.

Sorry but I don't see how Butler is that much better than Bradley+Crowder.

Also seeing the Cousins deal recently I'm a lot more hesitant to give that up for Butler.

I'd do 2017 BKN Pick + Bradley but not Bradley + Crowder. Sorry.

That's fine I understand what you're saying. I would still do it because at some point you have to re-up some of these contracts: IT, AB, Smart and others. Sometimes you consolidate and give younger guys a chance to play more while those other contracts still have value.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: JHTruth on February 22, 2017, 10:39:47 AM
People have to realize if you want to add better talent you have to trade pieces that other teams want.

AB, Crowder and this years Nets pick is a package teams want and I would do that for either Butler or preferably George. IMO it's a good deal for both teams.

Sorry but I don't see how Butler is that much better than Bradley+Crowder.

Also seeing the Cousins deal recently I'm a lot more hesitant to give that up for Butler.

I'd do 2017 BKN Pick + Bradley but not Bradley + Crowder. Sorry.

That's fine I understand what you're saying. I would still do it because at some point you have to re-up some of these contracts: IT, AB, Smart and others. Sometimes you consolidate and give younger guys a chance to play more while those other contracts still have value.

This roster is seriously unbalanced with guards right and left and absolutely no one that can actually get a rebound or protect the rim. At some point you need to balance the roster, consolidate and cash in the assets, and seriously upgrade the talent on the team. If you keep Crowder in the deal, then turn around and move him for Drummond.

Danny needs to start making moves here. Before these assets start to lose their value and we end up with jack..
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: coffee425 on February 22, 2017, 10:40:26 AM
All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?

(http://i.giphy.com/NPyHgTkMStCXC.gif)

Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Phantom255x on February 22, 2017, 10:41:57 AM
All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?

(http://i.giphy.com/NPyHgTkMStCXC.gif)

Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on February 22, 2017, 10:48:56 AM
Yeah, I feel like we shouldn't give up Crowder as well.

Really good player on a VERY CHEAP contract? I know we're getting an All-Star in return, but if we're talking about luxury tax management, it's easier when you have a starting caliber player making so little.

Why can't it just be AB + Jaylen + salary filler + a Brooklyn 1st + another 1st and get it over with? Chicago is getting a lot of value with that already.

Plus, I want that Marquette connection.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 22, 2017, 10:49:01 AM
Pretty difficult to get emotional on this subject when we don't know what the total package is that the Bulls are asking for. If Ainge has already decided to give up a Nets pick and Brown, then I can see his reluctance to want to give up his starting SF on one of the best long term contracts in the league to fill out that package. An expiring contract like Zeller should be enough to get that deal. If the package is just the Nets pick and filler, then holding back Crowder is hurting the team, throw him in.

If the package is....

then......

I could go on for all sorts of combos. Best to wait to see what the deal is before getting upset about who is or isn't in the trade.
TP
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 22, 2017, 10:51:08 AM
All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?



Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

No one's debating whether it'd be worth trading Crowder as the only asset of significance for Butler.

Most seem to be assuming we're already willing to give up multiple assets (some combo of a BRK pick, Bradley, Brown, Smart, + salary filler) and we're talking about Crowder on top of that.

Problem is, of course, we just don't know what's already on the table. But it's assumed it's already quite a bit. 

Most importantly, of course, is that our opinions matter not at all when it comes to whether the trade happens or not. So the whole debate is moot and can be treated as just people laying out their perspectives.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: coffee425 on February 22, 2017, 10:55:53 AM
All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?

(http://i.giphy.com/NPyHgTkMStCXC.gif)

Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: RockinRyA on February 22, 2017, 10:57:43 AM
Yeah, I feel like we shouldn't give up Crowder as well.

Really good player on a VERY CHEAP contract? I know we're getting an All-Star in return, but if we're talking about luxury tax management, it's easier when you have a starting caliber player making so little.

Why can't it just be AB + Jaylen + salary filler + a Brooklyn 1st + another 1st and get it over with? Chicago is getting a lot of value with that already.

Plus, I want that Marquette connection.

Butler is an all-star, but the upgrade wont be that huge that it merits trading the whole Plan B.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: BaronV on February 22, 2017, 10:59:39 AM

He has won nothing. Except the hearts of the Boston faithful.

I guess the turnaround this team has experienced since the Rondo trade is 'nothing' then?  Or in your estimation, the only way to get to a championship-level team is the way it was done with the RA KG trades?  Instant gratification? 

I can't find the stats to back this up quickly, but I recall that from the time of that trade, the Cs had the best or 2nd best record in the league for the rest of that season, and got into the playoffs as the 7th seed in a year that had started with predictions of a high lottery pick.  And obviously have gotten better both seasons since then. 

The real world isn't fantasy sports or video games.  You can't just plug stats into holes in a roster and win.  Personalities matter.  That's why replacing a malcontent like Rondo with a leader like Crowder made such a big difference, and it's why I'm glad Danny and Brad are making such an effort to build a long-term roster made up of coachable, smart, high character guys and are avoiding talented but unstable players like Cousins. 

Here's an example from another sport.  In the mid-90s, there were three great shortstops in the American League... ARod, Jeter, and Nomar. 

One of them was arguably the best player in the game, but was an unmitigated jerk who teammates hated and was all about himself.  He got the biggest contract in history and won the MVP twice for a last place team.  His team then paid another team to take him away.   

Another was one of the best pure hitters in his generation, but had a prima donna attitude.  He didn't seem well-liked by his teammates or management, and was eventually unceremoniously dumped from his team, which went on to win a historic championship the year he was traded. 

The third guy has 5 rings and will be a first ballot hall of famer after playing his whole career with the same team, which had zero losing seasons in his 20 year career.  His teams weren't always filled with huge stars, and he never put up the best numbers at his position, but he made all the right plays, said all the right things, and came through in the clutch.  He's known as The Captain, and inspired his teams to victory.

I see Crowder as this team's Jeter.  His leadership and attitude makes everyone else work harder and better.  Smart is similar.  You can't take a guy like that away and expect the winning to continue, just because you plug in a guy who scores a few more points or grabs a few more rebounds. 



Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: wdleehi on February 22, 2017, 11:01:00 AM
All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?

(http://i.giphy.com/NPyHgTkMStCXC.gif)

Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY


They can waive players at the end of their bench easily enough. 

Chicago has 14 guys under contract.

Can say bye to Zipper.

Trade Butler, take back three players.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Shamrocker on February 22, 2017, 11:03:13 AM
Quote
‏@KevinOConnorNBA

Bulls need consensus for a Butler deal. Source: Paxson sees the writing on the wall but Forman likes the status quo.

https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/834418955326402567
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: BaronV on February 22, 2017, 11:03:51 AM
All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?



Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

No one's debating whether it'd be worth trading Crowder as the only asset of significance for Butler.

Most seem to be assuming we're already willing to give up multiple assets (some combo of a BRK pick, Bradley, Brown, Smart, + salary filler) and we're talking about Crowder on top of that.

Problem is, of course, we just don't know what's already on the table. But it's assumed it's already quite a bit. 

Most importantly, of course, is that our opinions matter not at all when it comes to whether the trade happens or not. So the whole debate is moot and can be treated as just people laying out their perspectives.

Yup.  If it was Crowder as the centerpiece of the deal for Butler, yeah, you probably do that.  But as a piece of the deal, no, given the intangibles he brings.  Try and get them to take someone else, an extra pick, etc. 
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 22, 2017, 11:05:04 AM
All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?

(http://i.giphy.com/NPyHgTkMStCXC.gif)

Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY
Can you really not understand a hesitation to give up a garunteed top 4 pick in a loaded draft as well as a team leader and above average starter on arguably the best non-rookie non-max contract in the league, and on top of that a guy like Jaylen Brown?

if you cant understand that hesitation, then you are indeed taking crazy pills.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 22, 2017, 11:07:53 AM

He has won nothing. Except the hearts of the Boston faithful.

I guess the turnaround this team has experienced since the Rondo trade is 'nothing' then?  Or in your estimation, the only way to get to a championship-level team is the way it was done with the RA KG trades?  Instant gratification? 

I can't find the stats to back this up quickly, but I recall that from the time of that trade, the Cs had the best or 2nd best record in the league for the rest of that season, and got into the playoffs as the 7th seed in a year that had started with predictions of a high lottery pick.  And obviously have gotten better both seasons since then. 

The real world isn't fantasy sports or video games.  You can't just plug stats into holes in a roster and win.  Personalities matter.  That's why replacing a malcontent like Rondo with a leader like Crowder made such a big difference, and it's why I'm glad Danny and Brad are making such an effort to build a long-term roster made up of coachable, smart, high character guys and are avoiding talented but unstable players like Cousins. 

Here's an example from another sport.  In the mid-90s, there were three great shortstops in the American League... ARod, Jeter, and Nomar. 

One of them was arguably the best player in the game, but was an unmitigated jerk who teammates hated and was all about himself.  He got the biggest contract in history and won the MVP twice for a last place team.  His team then paid another team to take him away.   

Another was one of the best pure hitters in his generation, but had a prima donna attitude.  He didn't seem well-liked by his teammates or management, and was eventually unceremoniously dumped from his team, which went on to win a historic championship the year he was traded. 

The third guy has 5 rings and will be a first ballot hall of famer after playing his whole career with the same team, which had zero losing seasons in his 20 year career.  His teams weren't always filled with huge stars, and he never put up the best numbers at his position, but he made all the right plays, said all the right things, and came through in the clutch.  He's known as The Captain, and inspired his teams to victory.

I see Crowder as this team's Jeter.  His leadership and attitude makes everyone else work harder and better.  Smart is similar.  You can't take a guy like that away and expect the winning to continue, just because you plug in a guy who scores a few more points or grabs a few more rebounds.
Worth noting that Jimmy Butler is a notoriously hard-worker, who like Crowder was overlooked his whole career.

You swap the two (obviously with other pieces like Nets '17 going in the deal as well) and I really dont see the teams culture changing.

Also, the Jeter A-rod Nomar thing is a bit ridiculous.

The talent disparity between the two teams A-Rod and Jeter played for is massive.

Nomar is whatever, but Id say his issues were more with staying healthy than they were anything else. He had a very short prime.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Mattybriand on February 22, 2017, 11:09:28 AM
All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?

(http://i.giphy.com/NPyHgTkMStCXC.gif)

Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY
Can you really not understand a hesitation to give up a garunteed top 4 pick in a loaded draft as well as a team leader and above average starter on arguably the best non-rookie non-max contract in the league, and on top of that a guy like Jaylen Brown?

if you cant understand that hesitation, then you are indeed taking crazy pills.


Love your Quote dude!

Btw I'm hesitant on any deal that just results in us losing to Lebron

I think ainge wants to go to war with these guys!

IT4
Bradley
Butler
Horford
Crowder
Smart
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: iadera on February 22, 2017, 11:09:33 AM
Ainge is really killing me man...

First missing out on Ibaka because he didn't want to give up Rozier...
Then missing out on Cousins because of (at this point god only knows what reason)

Now he's halting a Butler trade because he doesn't want to give up Crowder - who plays the same position?!?!?!

AHHHH Danny, why must you be so infuriating!!!!

Only thing I can think of is maybe they want Bradley and Crowder and the 2018 1st, and Ainge is willing to offer Bradley, but he's not willing to offer both Bradley and Crowder - in which case I would understand.

It makes sense, as Bradley and Crowder make about $15M between them, so that would match Butler's contract.

 

I must agree. Crowder  and 2018 1st has to be dealt, but I assume they also want Bradley or Jaylen. That would be way too much.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: iadera on February 22, 2017, 11:11:01 AM
All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?

(http://i.giphy.com/NPyHgTkMStCXC.gif)

Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY
Can you really not understand a hesitation to give up a garunteed top 4 pick in a loaded draft as well as a team leader and above average starter on arguably the best non-rookie non-max contract in the league, and on top of that a guy like Jaylen Brown?

if you cant understand that hesitation, then you are indeed taking crazy pills.


Love your Quote dude!

Btw I'm hesitant on any deal that just results in us losing to Lebron

I think ainge wants to go to war with these guys!

IT4
Bradley
Butler
Horford
Crowder
Smart

That's not realistic in any scenario. You have to give someone from Brad-Crow-Smart trio.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: oldtype on February 22, 2017, 11:12:05 AM
We would only be slightly better swapping out Crowder for Butler imo.  Shouldn't budge from anything more than Bradley + Brown + pick.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Phantom255x on February 22, 2017, 11:13:32 AM
All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?

(http://i.giphy.com/NPyHgTkMStCXC.gif)

Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY
Can you really not understand a hesitation to give up a garunteed top 4 pick in a loaded draft as well as a team leader and above average starter on arguably the best non-rookie non-max contract in the league, and on top of that a guy like Jaylen Brown?

if you cant understand that hesitation, then you are indeed taking crazy pills.


Love your Quote dude!

Btw I'm hesitant on any deal that just results in us losing to Lebron

I think ainge wants to go to war with these guys!

IT4
Bradley
Butler
Horford
Crowder
Smart

That's not realistic in any scenario. You have to give someone from Brad-Crow-Smart trio.

Bradley. They will keep IT and Smart on extensions.

Bradley himself will command close to max so I think he's gone after 2018.

Plus Butler can play the 2 as well go cover AB's absence.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: BitterJim on February 22, 2017, 11:15:10 AM
All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?



Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY

You think Chicago would give up on the trade because they had to waive or include someone like Zisper? Because waiving him would put them at 13 roster spots, enough to take on 3 players while only sending out 1.

And are you seriously calling Bradley, Crowder, and Smart role players (they're much more than that; two of them, and arguably all three, would be starters on most teams in the league) and comparing them directly to the type of end-of-bench guy that Chicago would have to get rid of on that situation? And then completely ignoring the pick with the best odds of being #1 in this year's draft?

You can have whatever feelings you want about what trade would be fair, but calling people crazy and then being intentionally obtuse while misinterpreting their arguments doesn't add anything
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 22, 2017, 11:17:50 AM
We would only be slightly better swapping out Crowder for Butler imo.  Shouldn't budge from anything more than Bradley + Brown + pick.
thats a steep price in itself.

No way I give up Bradley+Brown+'17+Crowder.

no way.

Id do Butler for Rozier, Nets '17 , and Avery Bradley.

Thats my biggest offer.

If you want a Nets pick you can take brown and Smart off the table.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: blink on February 22, 2017, 11:18:52 AM
All of this talk is ridiculous.
Are we really debating the merits of trading a role player on a great contract vs an all star on his own great contract?
Are we really debating the merits of trading a top 5 pick (who we pray will be an allstar) for an actual allstar?

(http://i.giphy.com/NPyHgTkMStCXC.gif)

Just get the deal done and figure out the rest later. You would have a top coach with 3 allstar level players. That's 60 wins in the east.

Now imagine trading the Top 5 pick, Crowder+Bradley, possibly one of Smart/Brown, and a lot more.

Still sound crazy to you?

This logic is impossible. Chicago can't add 3 players without giving up 2-3 to meet roster size limits.
So you're talking about trading 3 role players, for an allstar and 1-2 probable role players.
STILL SOUNDS CRAZY
Can you really not understand a hesitation to give up a garunteed top 4 pick in a loaded draft as well as a team leader and above average starter on arguably the best non-rookie non-max contract in the league, and on top of that a guy like Jaylen Brown?

if you cant understand that hesitation, then you are indeed taking crazy pills.

If the price for Butler really is this years Nets swap, Crowder, and Brown I say no on the trade.  That is just way too much for Butler.  I know he is a great player, but that is too much for me.  He isn't going to get the number of touches he gets in chicago with our team, he won't have the same alpha dog role.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: blink on February 22, 2017, 11:19:34 AM
We would only be slightly better swapping out Crowder for Butler imo.  Shouldn't budge from anything more than Bradley + Brown + pick.
thats a steep price in itself.

No way I give up Bradley+Brown+'17+Crowder.

no way.

Yeah Bradley Brown Crowder and '17 is wayyyyyy too much.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Phantom255x on February 22, 2017, 11:20:41 AM
If the framework of the deal is set like 2017 BKN Pick, Zeller/Amir, Bradley, future non-BKN Picks and Ainge agrees, But they (CHI) insist on adding Crowder to the deal and that makes it so that there's no deal, then wow Bulls fans will erupt in flames haha.

Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: BringToughnessBack on February 22, 2017, 11:24:54 AM
Appears we might not be alone in our pursuit of Butler. Enter Magic/Lakers into mix-maybe it is to drive price up on us again. Perfect storm for Bulls if they truly want to trade him..have Celtics and Lakers fight for him....

https://twitter.com/TheMikeAdamle?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: jay on February 22, 2017, 11:26:27 AM
What if it's Bradley AND Crowder plus Rozier and 2018 Nets pick and a 2019 pick.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=z3qejdq


Keeping Smart and Jaylen would be huge. Plus you still have cap room with Amir/Zeller/Jerebko all able to come off the books and make a run at Hayward and/or Noel.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Monkhouse on February 22, 2017, 11:42:54 AM
Would rather have Paul George for the same price if that's what it took.

Try to go after Drummond or Noel.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: A Future of Stevens on February 22, 2017, 11:44:17 AM
Appears we might not be alone in our pursuit of Butler. Enter Magic/Lakers into mix-maybe it is to drive price up on us again. Perfect storm for Bulls if they truly want to trade him..have Celtics and Lakers fight for him....

https://twitter.com/TheMikeAdamle?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

I would love it if the Lakers got Butler, and we got George, and while we continue the upward trajectory, Jimmy just immediately starts throwing the Lakers who are left under the bus.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: celticinorlando on February 22, 2017, 11:45:06 AM
I would not give up both Nets picks, plus Crowder, plus Brown/Smart...no way. Just stand pat...address FA in the summer, keep Crowder and draft Fultz, Ball or Jackson
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 22, 2017, 11:45:40 AM
DA has to get rid of AB .   He is already mad about his contract and is looking to rob the bank. I'd rather trade him now , get something , before you have to let him go,  can't pay him Bulter / George money
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: celticinorlando on February 22, 2017, 11:47:46 AM
If they want to move anyone...move Bradley. He is always hurt and the guys behind him can do what he does. No way you invest big money into that guy

Bradley
One of Nets pick
Brown
Zeller or Amir
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: LilRip on February 22, 2017, 11:50:20 AM
We don't know what the price is but what I can't agree with are statements that echo the sentiment "Jimmy Butler is a minor upgrade from Crowder". Like, seriously?? Crowder is a 3 and D player. Butler is an all star. That's like saying Kawhi Leonard is a minor upgrade from Trevor Ariza.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Evantime34 on February 22, 2017, 11:51:29 AM
Here are some thoughts on including Crowder in a deal

1. Jimmy Butler in the past has had leadership issues and the Celtics don't want to hurt their chemistry in a deal. Butler and Crowder are friends, bring him in with someone he knows well would help his transition.

2. I love the fit of Jimmy next to Crowder rather than instead of Crowder. The last 2 years our best defenses have featured lineups that can switch everything. On offense Crowder at the 4 gives Jimmy Butler more space than he has ever had before.

3. I'd much rather move Bradley than Crowder.  I think in the end we will offer them something like Bradley, Rozier, Olynyk, Net 17' pick, Memphis pick, Clippers pick. If it's more than that the C's should consider walking away. I'm sure a similar trade would be available on draft night, and maybe the Bulls will feel different at that point.I like our team now we don't need to make a move if the price isn't right.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: BitterJim on February 22, 2017, 11:51:48 AM
We don't know what the price is but what I can't agree with are statements that echo the sentiment "Jimmy Butler is a minor upgrade from Crowder". Like, seriously?? Crowder is a 3 and D player. Butler is an all star. That's like saying Kawhi Leonard is a minor upgrade from Trevor Ariza.

Not it isn't.  Leonard is an MVP candidate, and Crowder is more valuable than Ariza.  I agree that Butler would definitely be an upgrade from Crowder, but that's a bad example
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: LGC88 on February 22, 2017, 11:52:08 AM
Lol Lakers don't want to include Ingram and Russel.
Their pick is not 100% their own.
So what they can offer for Butler?
2019 pick + Randle ?
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Chief Macho on February 22, 2017, 11:54:50 AM
this is why i still don't have a clue why they didn't just risk a cheap deal with boogie. 

could have just given up the pick probably, for a guy in a position we need, in a draft where all the top players don't fit our team perfectly. 
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 22, 2017, 11:55:15 AM
Appears we might not be alone in our pursuit of Butler. Enter Magic/Lakers into mix-maybe it is to drive price up on us again. Perfect storm for Bulls if they truly want to trade him..have Celtics and Lakers fight for him....

https://twitter.com/TheMikeAdamle?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
adamle is an idiot.

in the past he has tweeted rumors then we they turned out to be BS he deleted them.

He has 0 credibility.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: saltlover on February 22, 2017, 11:56:59 AM
Lol Lakers don't want to include Ingram and Russel.
Their pick is not 100% their own.
So what they can offer for Butler?
2019 pick + Randle ?

The earliest pick they can offer is 2020 (if they keep this year's pick), or 2021 if they lose it.  They owe a 2019 pick to Orlando if they give this year's pick to Philly.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 22, 2017, 11:57:05 AM
this is why i still don't have a clue why they didn't just risk a cheap deal with boogie. 

could have just given up the pick probably, for a guy in a position we need, in a draft where all the top players don't fit our team perfectly.
The team clearly decided that Cousins personality was cancerous to the team and simply not worth the risk.

It had nothing to do with price or fit.

That is the only thing that makes sense.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on February 22, 2017, 12:02:22 PM
We would only be slightly better swapping out Crowder for Butler imo.  Shouldn't budge from anything more than Bradley + Brown + pick.
thats a steep price in itself.

No way I give up Bradley+Brown+'17+Crowder.

no way.

Yeah Bradley Brown Crowder and '17 is wayyyyyy too much.

That's something you offer Indiana for Paul George, not for Jimmy Butler.

Yeah, Danny has to stand pat with Bradley + Brown + 2017 Brooklyn pick + other fringe players if needed to make salaries work. If Chicago refuses, then we move on.

No way we should include Crowder and/or Smart in that package for Butler. No way.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Bobshot on February 22, 2017, 12:02:49 PM
Ainge is holding out for Bradley, who he probably won't re-sign. But Crowder makes more sense for both teams, because Bulls have Wade at the 2, and Butler would be more suited for the 3, replacing Crowder. Butler doesn't shoot the 3 much, so he wouldn't be as desirable at the 2. And they still have Brown as the backup 3.

I don't see this as a deal blocker, if there really is a deal. Ainge has a lot to gain from the savings of Butler's contract--with Crowder or Bradley. And if the deal includes Nets 18, not 17, it's a no brainer.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Trifecta on February 22, 2017, 12:03:26 PM

2. I love the fit of Jimmy next to Crowder rather than instead of Crowder. The last 2 years our best defenses have featured lineups that can switch everything. On offense Crowder at the 4 gives Jimmy Butler more space than he has ever had before.

I agree with this the most. Butler and Crowder @ the 2 and 3  gives you one of, if not the strongest and best defensive wing pairings in the league (off the top of my head). Not to mention the match-up problems you would create on offense with Crowder at the 4, especially with Butler out there. Not only does he do a good job of creating offense for himself, but I think he's underrated as a playmaker as well (5 APG).
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: oldtype on February 22, 2017, 12:04:00 PM
We don't know what the price is but what I can't agree with are statements that echo the sentiment "Jimmy Butler is a minor upgrade from Crowder". Like, seriously?? Crowder is a 3 and D player. Butler is an all star. That's like saying Kawhi Leonard is a minor upgrade from Trevor Ariza.

In the context of Thomas being a high-usage first option, Butler is only a minor upgrade from Crowder.  He is not a good shooter and is therefore less of a threat off the ball.  That's offset a bit by giving us a viable second-option creator when IT can't get it done, but it's not an ideal fit. 

The best stars for superteams are always the ones who are just as valuable off the ball as on it (see, e.g., Durant, Curry, Thompson, Green), and Butler does not fit that mold.  I'm not saying I don't want him, but the improvement would not be as big as you think.

Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: triboy16f on February 22, 2017, 12:05:25 PM
Will ainge include anyone?? Lol

He could split the team into two very soon. Celtics 1 and Celtics 2
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: LilRip on February 22, 2017, 12:05:49 PM
We don't know what the price is but what I can't agree with are statements that echo the sentiment "Jimmy Butler is a minor upgrade from Crowder". Like, seriously?? Crowder is a 3 and D player. Butler is an all star. That's like saying Kawhi Leonard is a minor upgrade from Trevor Ariza.

Not it isn't.  Leonard is an MVP candidate, and Crowder is more valuable than Ariza.  I agree that Butler would definitely be an upgrade from Crowder, but that's a bad example

It's a close enough example. Crowder and Ariza are both highly capable role players, play terrific D, and shoot the three ball fairly well. Neither can be relied on to create offense consistently. Meanwhile, Kawhi and Butler are surefire allstars, extremely hard workers, lock down defenders, and can create their own shot even if the defense is geared to stop them.

Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: celticinorlando on February 22, 2017, 12:08:22 PM
Danny does need to shed some of the deadweight on this roster...I can't see Amir, Zeller, Young being on the team next year.

In addition, if they draft Fultz you have a glut of guards...Smart, Bradley, Rozier, Fultz, IT..someone is going. I prefer Bradley. Get something for him now
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: RockinRyA on February 22, 2017, 12:09:35 PM
We don't know what the price is but what I can't agree with are statements that echo the sentiment "Jimmy Butler is a minor upgrade from Crowder". Like, seriously?? Crowder is a 3 and D player. Butler is an all star. That's like saying Kawhi Leonard is a minor upgrade from Trevor Ariza.

Not it isn't.  Leonard is an MVP candidate, and Crowder is more valuable than Ariza.  I agree that Butler would definitely be an upgrade from Crowder, but that's a bad example

It's a close enough example. Crowder and Ariza are both highly capable role players, play terrific D, and shoot the three ball fairly well. Neither can be relied on to create offense consistently. Meanwhile, Kawhi and Butler are surefire allstars, extremely hard workers, lock down defenders, and can create their own shot even if the defense is geared to stop them.

You'd like to think so but no. There's a huge gap between Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler, and Crowder is better than Ariza.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 22, 2017, 12:10:06 PM
Unless the Bulls get blown away by an offer, I'd expect them to wait until the offseason to trade Butler.  There will be more teams in play for Butler and they'll know which 2017 pick they'll be getting. 
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: LilRip on February 22, 2017, 12:14:00 PM
We don't know what the price is but what I can't agree with are statements that echo the sentiment "Jimmy Butler is a minor upgrade from Crowder". Like, seriously?? Crowder is a 3 and D player. Butler is an all star. That's like saying Kawhi Leonard is a minor upgrade from Trevor Ariza.

In the context of Thomas being a high-usage first option, Butler is only a minor upgrade from Crowder.  He is not a good shooter and is therefore less of a threat off the ball.  That's offset a bit by giving us a viable second-option creator when IT can't get it done, but it's not an ideal fit. 

The best stars for superteams are always the ones who are just as valuable off the ball as on it (see, e.g., Durant, Curry, Thompson, Green), and Butler does not fit that mold.  I'm not saying I don't want him, but the improvement would not be as big as you think.

I firmly believe IT is good enough to change his game once he has better teammates. It's not like Butler is a black hole on offense either. Besides, I'm sure CBS can find more use for Butler other than "stand in the corner and shoot 3's".

Kinda like how JR smith can knock down 3's like nobody's business but having Kyrie who can drive the lane and create shots for others as well as knock down 3's (Butler isn't some chump shooter) is a much appreciated teammate for the generally ball-dominant Lebron.

Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: celticinorlando on February 22, 2017, 12:15:54 PM
Danny is looking to make a FA splash this summer...will be interesting. Durant and Curry will not leave GS...will Griffin want to move? Danny has seem to want him

Hayward seems like a fit..but is he a max player?
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Neurotic Guy on February 22, 2017, 12:16:12 PM
Has anyone her drawn a comparison of Butler to Pierce?   I know they aren't identical, but they play the 2/3 and are similar size (Pierce stronger) and both have the ability to create their own offense.   I tend to think of PP as the superior offensive player and JB as the superior defensive player -- but frankly I don't see enough Butler to be sure.   But the bottom line is that PP in his prime was probably right around where Butler is in terms of NBA ranking.  If we use a truly unscientific metric and say that JB is essentially the PP comp, that maybe IT (more or less) is RA (IT is offensively more diverse than RA was at 33; but defensively not big enough) and uhhhh AL is KG...  Obviously a dramatic downgrade on the AL-KG comp, but it allows one lens through which to view contending readiness.   Of course, the competition will determine true readiness.

Not ready to contend still with Butler, but maybe within shouting distance?
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: JaylenBrown7 on February 22, 2017, 12:17:36 PM
JB is only a minor upgrade over crowder? Place crowder in chicagos system with no spacing and see how he fairs kver butler.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: triboy16f on February 22, 2017, 12:18:45 PM
Will ainge include anyone?? Lol

He could split the team into two very soon. Celtics 1 and Celtics 2
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: celticinorlando on February 22, 2017, 12:22:33 PM
Would prefer George over Butler. Then you offer more assests/players
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: LilRip on February 22, 2017, 12:24:42 PM
JB is only a minor upgrade over crowder? Place crowder in chicagos system with no spacing and see how he fairs kver butler.

This. It's ridiculous. Jimmy Butler isn't my fave player by any stretch but let's call a spade a spade.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: BitterJim on February 22, 2017, 12:26:35 PM
Danny is looking to make a FA splash this summer...will be interesting. Durant and Curry will not leave GS...will Griffin want to move? Danny has seem to want him

Hayward seems like a fit..but is he a max player?

Yes, he absolutely is, especially in our system
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: rondohondo on February 22, 2017, 12:27:16 PM
So if danny does jae, amir brk 18, then adds Bogut(playoff tested with a mean streak) , that is a [dang] good team


I would rather keep AB than Jae to guard Kyrie and possibly curry in the playoffs.

Let's add tucker while we're at it.

IT             Smart
AB.           Jaylen
Butler.        Tucker
Horford.      Jerebko
Bogut          KO

Still have brk 17 coming along with Yabu and Zicic
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: BitterJim on February 22, 2017, 12:30:15 PM
We don't know what the price is but what I can't agree with are statements that echo the sentiment "Jimmy Butler is a minor upgrade from Crowder". Like, seriously?? Crowder is a 3 and D player. Butler is an all star. That's like saying Kawhi Leonard is a minor upgrade from Trevor Ariza.

Not it isn't.  Leonard is an MVP candidate, and Crowder is more valuable than Ariza.  I agree that Butler would definitely be an upgrade from Crowder, but that's a bad example

It's a close enough example. Crowder and Ariza are both highly capable role players, play terrific D, and shoot the three ball fairly well. Neither can be relied on to create offense consistently. Meanwhile, Kawhi and Butler are surefire allstars, extremely hard workers, lock down defenders, and can create their own shot even if the defense is geared to stop them.

You'd like to think so but no. There's a huge gap between Kawhi Leonard and Jimmy Butler, and Crowder is better than Ariza.

Yup.  Paul George vs. Danny Green would be a much better comparison.  Butler is very good, but he is not on Kawhi's level, especially on defense
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: RJ87 on February 22, 2017, 12:30:27 PM
JB is only a minor upgrade over crowder? Place crowder in chicagos system with no spacing and see how he fairs kver butler.

This. It's ridiculous. Jimmy Butler isn't my fave player by any stretch but let's call a spade a spade.

Yeah... I respect what Jae brings to this team as much as the next fan, but he's not in the same conversation as Jimmy. We're talking about a role player vs. a 3x All-Star.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: ssspence on February 22, 2017, 12:32:30 PM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

I have to agree. If Crowder is required in a trade for a guy who is really good -- but not a true star -- I wait. In a salary capped league, his economics <> effectiveness ratio is too good.

But I'd like to think Bradley -- possibly combined with Rozier -- could be tempting for them.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Fan from VT on February 22, 2017, 12:33:54 PM
Has anyone her drawn a comparison of Butler to Pierce?   I know they aren't identical, but they play the 2/3 and are similar size (Pierce stronger) and both have the ability to create their own offense.   I tend to think of PP as the superior offensive player and JB as the superior defensive player -- but frankly I don't see enough Butler to be sure.   But the bottom line is that PP in his prime was probably right around where Butler is in terms of NBA ranking.  If we use a truly unscientific metric and say that JB is essentially the PP comp, that maybe IT (more or less) is RA (IT is offensively more diverse than RA was at 33; but defensively not big enough) and uhhhh AL is KG...  Obviously a dramatic downgrade on the AL-KG comp, but it allows one lens through which to view contending readiness.   Of course, the competition will determine true readiness.

Not ready to contend still with Butler, but maybe within shouting distance?

I think PP was better. He developed into quite a good defender, with a very good defensive rep among some of the better NBA analysts. Better offensive player too, with a more proven consistent peak.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on February 22, 2017, 12:40:18 PM
Will ainge include anyone?? Lol

This is funny, because it seems like it could very well be true—sometimes I do, in fact, get the impression that Danny wouldn't include Crowder (or AB, or Brown, or any current Celtic) in a trade for LeBron.

I just have to keep reminding myself that a) I'm not in control, and b) Danny's pretty good at what he does, and hasn't screwed up anything thus far, so I need to give him the benefit of the doubt. If he's stubbornly hanging onto Crowder, he has a good reason for doing so.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Trifecta on February 22, 2017, 12:43:27 PM
Danny is looking to make a FA splash this summer...will be interesting. Durant and Curry will not leave GS...will Griffin want to move? Danny has seem to want him

Hayward seems like a fit..but is he a max player?

This is why I think people waiting for another "FA splash" this summer are in for a rude awakening.. Durant is staying where he is, Griffin is an injury waiting to happen and is not the same player most are thinking of (highlight reel machine), and that's IF he decided to sign here which is unlikely.. and Hayward is the type of player you add as your 3rd option. Not your second or first. And does he make you that much better? To take a page out of some other people's book here, is he THAT much better than Bradley? How about Crowder? Not to mention, barring another deal, you would be putting one of those 2 on the bench if you sign Hayward. And neither would be happy with that.. also signing Hayward to a max deal hurts your flexibility even more going forward. Butler is on a friendlier contract. 17.5 mil compared to 26.5 for a max deal.

So.. I don't know, maybe someone else can think of another player who moves the needle free agency. Cause I don't see it, personally.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: hpantazo on February 22, 2017, 12:44:38 PM
Has anyone her drawn a comparison of Butler to Pierce?   I know they aren't identical, but they play the 2/3 and are similar size (Pierce stronger) and both have the ability to create their own offense.   I tend to think of PP as the superior offensive player and JB as the superior defensive player -- but frankly I don't see enough Butler to be sure.   But the bottom line is that PP in his prime was probably right around where Butler is in terms of NBA ranking.  If we use a truly unscientific metric and say that JB is essentially the PP comp, that maybe IT (more or less) is RA (IT is offensively more diverse than RA was at 33; but defensively not big enough) and uhhhh AL is KG...  Obviously a dramatic downgrade on the AL-KG comp, but it allows one lens through which to view contending readiness.   Of course, the competition will determine true readiness.

Not ready to contend still with Butler, but maybe within shouting distance?

I think PP was better. He developed into quite a good defender, with a very good defensive rep among some of the better NBA analysts. Better offensive player too, with a more proven consistent peak.

Yeah. How quickly people forget the defensive job Pierce did on Lebron and Kobe in that 2008 playoff run.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: heyvik on February 22, 2017, 12:44:43 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: incoherent on February 22, 2017, 12:48:29 PM
Im sorry but the number 1 pick in the draft and a prospect should be enough, no way we give up the best contract in the league.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: jacigar on February 22, 2017, 12:48:39 PM
No way we trade either Brooklyn pick. Only chance to get young star G 1017 and young star Big 2018. Look at Ayton and Bamba in 2018 . May be only chance forplayer like AD or Towns.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: LGC88 on February 22, 2017, 12:49:05 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Lol, the whole discussion, Aldridge keep saying "I think..., I think..."
But people here take it as fact and are already emotional about it.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Csfan1984 on February 22, 2017, 12:49:17 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?
Speculating.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: kozlodoev on February 22, 2017, 12:50:46 PM
Has anyone her drawn a comparison of Butler to Pierce?   I know they aren't identical, but they play the 2/3 and are similar size (Pierce stronger) and both have the ability to create their own offense.   I tend to think of PP as the superior offensive player and JB as the superior defensive player -- but frankly I don't see enough Butler to be sure.   But the bottom line is that PP in his prime was probably right around where Butler is in terms of NBA ranking.  If we use a truly unscientific metric and say that JB is essentially the PP comp, that maybe IT (more or less) is RA (IT is offensively more diverse than RA was at 33; but defensively not big enough) and uhhhh AL is KG...  Obviously a dramatic downgrade on the AL-KG comp, but it allows one lens through which to view contending readiness.   Of course, the competition will determine true readiness.

Not ready to contend still with Butler, but maybe within shouting distance?

I think PP was better. He developed into quite a good defender, with a very good defensive rep among some of the better NBA analysts. Better offensive player too, with a more proven consistent peak.

Yeah. How quickly people forget the defensive job Pierce did on Lebron and Kobe in that 2008 playoff run.
Right, except Season 6 Paul Pierce wasn't all that different from Season 6 Jimmy Butler. Can't hold the fact that you don't have a crystal ball into the next 10 years of his career against Butler.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: saltlover on February 22, 2017, 12:53:50 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: celticinorlando on February 22, 2017, 12:56:33 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.

Reading the Chicago boards...they do not want Crowder. They want the 2 #1's, rozier. they want to go full tank mode and have four high #1s over the next two-three years
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: BitterJim on February 22, 2017, 12:57:32 PM
Danny is looking to make a FA splash this summer...will be interesting. Durant and Curry will not leave GS...will Griffin want to move? Danny has seem to want him

Hayward seems like a fit..but is he a max player?

This is why I think people waiting for another "FA splash" this summer are in for a rude awakening.. Durant is staying where he is, Griffin is an injury waiting to happen and is not the same player most are thinking of (highlight reel machine), and that's IF he decided to sign here which is unlikely.. and Hayward is the type of player you add as your 3rd option. Not your second or first. And does he make you that much better? To take a page out of some other people's book here, is he THAT much better than Bradley? How about Crowder? Not to mention, barring another deal, you would be putting one of those 2 on the bench if you sign Hayward. And neither would be happy with that.. also signing Hayward to a max deal hurts your flexibility even more going forward. Butler is on a friendlier contract. 17.5 mil compared to 26.5 for a max deal.

So.. I don't know, maybe someone else can think of another player who moves the needle free agency. Cause I don't see it, personally.

No one here expects Durant or highlight reel Blake to come here in FA.  Actually, I don't think anyone EXPECTS any player to.  But there's a huge difference between expecting either of those things and the reality, which is feeling that you're better off trying for Hayward and Griffin (who may not have the same athleticism, but is still a great rebounder and would fit perfectly into Brad's system) and then still having the option to go for Butler/George than you are just trading for Butler now.  Hayward may not be a #1 option (although he's doing a great job of it right now), but here he would be the 2nd or 3rd option (depending on whether we made another deal after signing him). "We might have too many good players and have to move one to the bench if we sign him" is not a problem, worst case you move Bradley (who is due for a new contract soon anyway) in a deal, preferably for a star.

There is no salary cap flexability after this offseason. IT will need to get paid, and so will Smart and AB.  This is our last real shot at any free agents.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Irish Stew on February 22, 2017, 12:58:11 PM
As the hosts on sports talk radio say, these two separate trades with the Knicks and Bulls are "Celtics ****" to me.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=j85s7h3

Bulls get Nets17. Knicks get a 2nd rounder.

Starters:

Horford

Anthony

Butler

Smart

Thomas

Bench: Green  Olynyk  Mickey  Rozier  (Bogut buy out? Sanders?)

Next year add Zizic and possibly Yabusele.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: tankcity! on February 22, 2017, 12:59:20 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.

Reading the Chicago boards...they do not want Crowder. They want the 2 #1's, rozier. they want to go full tank mode and have four high #1s over the next two-three years

Good for them. They're not getting it lol. They can keep Butler and continue to be a dysfunctional organization. People keep forgetting we can just sign Paul George in 2018 when Thomas will be a free agent....
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: saltlover on February 22, 2017, 01:01:05 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.

Reading the Chicago boards...they do not want Crowder. They want the 2 #1's, rozier. they want to go full tank mode and have four high #1s over the next two-three years

Yeah, I saw that article and laughed.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Granath on February 22, 2017, 01:01:13 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.

TP. I believe you're probably spot on.

I think Ainge is thinking about Lebron in the playoffs. If we don't have Crowder then it's up to Butler to guard him for 7 games. While Butler is no slouch, Lebron is just physically much more powerful than Butler and that's not going to help Butler's game on either end of the court (not to mention the inevitable ticky-tack fouls Lebron will get in the playoffs).

But if you have Crowder and Butler now you've got something going. You can put on the court a lineup of IT, Smart, Butler, Crowder and Horford. There's some amazing defensive talent that matches up well against Cleveland and fair amount of size/strength on the court as well. It still doesn't mean the Cs would be favored but they'd have a chance. But without Crowder I'm not sure they have much of one. If Danny is thinking this way then he's right not to make the deal. No use if it doesn't substantially improve the overall odds of winning a championship.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Quetzalcoatl on February 22, 2017, 01:01:45 PM
Yeah I think Ainge is right.  Butler/Crowder is a both devastating and financially responsible, while Bradley / Butler is a big upgrade, but it's not the same.  BK 17 + Bradley + Amir is a nice package, take it or leave it.  We'll be fine either way and Chicago will be the 8 seed or miss the playoffs.  It's really their loss.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: celticinorlando on February 22, 2017, 01:01:46 PM
I prefer George over Butler...but I do not think he would be available. If he is, I would go all in for him.

For George I would offer both the Nets #1s, Crowder, Bradley and one of the draft and stash guys

Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on February 22, 2017, 01:04:31 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.

I get why Chicago would want Jae Crowder.

I mean, which team wouldn't want Jae. Great contract, playing really well with good efficiency, locked up for 3 more years.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Monkhouse on February 22, 2017, 01:09:36 PM
I prefer George over Butler...but I do not think he would be available. If he is, I would go all in for him.

For George I would offer both the Nets #1s, Crowder, Bradley and one of the draft and stash guys

Whoa, that's a lot.

I would do 2017' Nets, Bradley, Brown, Memphis, Boston 2019 pick, and any 3 second rounders.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: saltlover on February 22, 2017, 01:09:57 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.

I get why Chicago would want Jae Crowder.

I mean, which team wouldn't want Jae. Great contract, playing really well with good efficiency, locked up for 3 more years.

Oh, for sure.  But at a certain point Chicago needs to decide whether they want to move on from Butler with a guaranteed top 4 pick (and likely better than that) in a draft that easily goes 4 deep at the top, in addition to some solid secondary assets, or keep Butler because they didn't get the secondary asset they want.  About the only way Ainge trade Crowder is if the Brooklyn pick isn't included.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: apc on February 22, 2017, 01:11:49 PM
Interesting read on Bulls Blog
"And worse yet it may be influencing the current talks with the a Jimmy Butler trade with the Celtics. Because I’ve heard it referenced by Zach Lowe and David Aldridge that the Bulls are still insisting on already-ready players like Jae Crowder of Avery Bradley in return for Butler, like they had done before the 2016 draft. This doesn’t really make sense. For one thing, trade talks becomes a non-starter from Boston’s perspective, as they want those guys for a playoff push if they’re trading for Jimmy Butler this season. And it doesn’t make sense for a rebuilding team to acquire guys like them, even Crowder who’s on a great contract (Bradley only has a year remaining before free agency), because if you trade Jimmy Butler now you’re going to be a terrible basketball team."

Full article:
http://www.blogabull.com/2017/2/22/14697712/bulls-cant-decide-on-trading-butler-and-are-asking-for-the-wrong-things-anyway

Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: celticinorlando on February 22, 2017, 01:13:58 PM
To me...you go all in and get a guy like Butler or George. If you can't...stand pat. Adding PJ Tucker or Bogut is not going to get Boston past the Cavs.

Finish the year strong, win a playoff series or 2 and make this the offseason that defines the next few seasons.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: jambr380 on February 22, 2017, 01:16:22 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.

TP. I believe you're probably spot on.

I think Ainge is thinking about Lebron in the playoffs. If we don't have Crowder then it's up to Butler to guard him for 7 games. While Butler is no slouch, Lebron is just physically much more powerful than Butler and that's not going to help Butler's game on either end of the court (not to mention the inevitable ticky-tack fouls Lebron will get in the playoffs).

But if you have Crowder and Butler now you've got something going. You can put on the court a lineup of IT, Smart, Butler, Crowder and Horford. There's some amazing defensive talent that matches up well against Cleveland and fair amount of size/strength on the court as well. It still doesn't mean the Cs would be favored but they'd have a chance. But without Crowder I'm not sure they have much of one. If Danny is thinking this way then he's right not to make the deal. No use if it doesn't substantially improve the overall odds of winning a championship.

I was about to lose it until I saw yours and SL's posts. Anything more than the BKN pick and AB is a no-go for me. I keep seeing people casually involving Brown, Smart, and Crowder (while totally not paying attention to the salary implications laid out by SL). Some proposals even include both BKN picks.

I am ready for the deadline to pass and re-visit talks this summer. People are going a little cray-cray in their desire to acquire Butler.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: kozlodoev on February 22, 2017, 01:17:25 PM
To me...you go all in and get a guy like Butler or George. If you can't...stand pat. Adding PJ Tucker or Bogut is not going to get Boston past the Cavs.

Finish the year strong, win a playoff series or 2 and make this the offseason that defines the next few seasons.
Adding Tucker and/or Bogut is the contingency plan after the bigger trade -- which, by the way, should make it quite obvious that some combination of Bradley/Crowder/Brown and Zeller/Jerebko/Amir is what is on the table.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: hpantazo on February 22, 2017, 01:17:40 PM
Interesting read on Bulls Blog
"And worse yet it may be influencing the current talks with the a Jimmy Butler trade with the Celtics. Because I’ve heard it referenced by Zach Lowe and David Aldridge that the Bulls are still insisting on already-ready players like Jae Crowder of Avery Bradley in return for Butler, like they had done before the 2016 draft. This doesn’t really make sense. For one thing, trade talks becomes a non-starter from Boston’s perspective, as they want those guys for a playoff push if they’re trading for Jimmy Butler this season. And it doesn’t make sense for a rebuilding team to acquire guys like them, even Crowder who’s on a great contract (Bradley only has a year remaining before free agency), because if you trade Jimmy Butler now you’re going to be a terrible basketball team."

Full article:
http://www.blogabull.com/2017/2/22/14697712/bulls-cant-decide-on-trading-butler-and-are-asking-for-the-wrong-things-anyway

If true, then the Bulls are just stupid. They should be asking for guys like Brown , Smart or Rozier
Or Zizic and Yabusele along with picks. Not guys like Bradley and Crowder.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on February 22, 2017, 01:23:31 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.

I get why Chicago would want Jae Crowder.

I mean, which team wouldn't want Jae. Great contract, playing really well with good efficiency, locked up for 3 more years.

Oh, for sure.  But at a certain point Chicago needs to decide whether they want to move on from Butler with a guaranteed top 4 pick (and likely better than that) in a draft that easily goes 4 deep at the top, in addition to some solid secondary assets, or keep Butler because they didn't get the secondary asset they want.  About the only way Ainge trade Crowder is if the Brooklyn pick isn't included.

Exactly.

I don't understand why they can't accept the '17 Brooklyn and Jaylen Brown.

They were able to develop Jimmy Butler into an All-Star, and Brown literally has the same tools as Butler, so they could easily just create another JB in JB. And you get a potential top 4 pick? And Avery Bradley?

We need to move on if the Bulls can't accept that offer. That's already too rich.

The insistence of the Bulls wanting Crowder is because they want a cheap, effective player. Well, they ain't getting that.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 22, 2017, 01:24:37 PM
Interesting read on Bulls Blog
"And worse yet it may be influencing the current talks with the a Jimmy Butler trade with the Celtics. Because I’ve heard it referenced by Zach Lowe and David Aldridge that the Bulls are still insisting on already-ready players like Jae Crowder of Avery Bradley in return for Butler, like they had done before the 2016 draft. This doesn’t really make sense. For one thing, trade talks becomes a non-starter from Boston’s perspective, as they want those guys for a playoff push if they’re trading for Jimmy Butler this season. And it doesn’t make sense for a rebuilding team to acquire guys like them, even Crowder who’s on a great contract (Bradley only has a year remaining before free agency), because if you trade Jimmy Butler now you’re going to be a terrible basketball team."

Full article:
http://www.blogabull.com/2017/2/22/14697712/bulls-cant-decide-on-trading-butler-and-are-asking-for-the-wrong-things-anyway

I was about to make this exact point. TP for the find.

Crowder's a valuable player, but he's worth more to us than them. It doesn't make sense for such a player to be included.

Rozier, Yab, Zizic, Brown, Smart, picks...why aren't the Bulls more interested in those? With Rondo, Butler and maybe Mirotic gone, the Bulls will have tons of cap room, as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: nickagneta on February 22, 2017, 01:29:46 PM
Interesting read on Bulls Blog
"And worse yet it may be influencing the current talks with the a Jimmy Butler trade with the Celtics. Because I’ve heard it referenced by Zach Lowe and David Aldridge that the Bulls are still insisting on already-ready players like Jae Crowder of Avery Bradley in return for Butler, like they had done before the 2016 draft. This doesn’t really make sense. For one thing, trade talks becomes a non-starter from Boston’s perspective, as they want those guys for a playoff push if they’re trading for Jimmy Butler this season. And it doesn’t make sense for a rebuilding team to acquire guys like them, even Crowder who’s on a great contract (Bradley only has a year remaining before free agency), because if you trade Jimmy Butler now you’re going to be a terrible basketball team."

Full article:
http://www.blogabull.com/2017/2/22/14697712/bulls-cant-decide-on-trading-butler-and-are-asking-for-the-wrong-things-anyway

If true, then the Bulls are just stupid. They should be asking for guys like Brown , Smart or Rozier
Or Zizic and Yabusele along with picks. Not guys like Bradley and Crowder.
Is there any doubt that the Bulls are stupid after what they have been doing for years? From firing Thibs and hiring Hoiberg, to their contract decisions on Rose back when he was a gigantic injury risk, to their recent trades which seem based on getting player for player value rather than player for future assets value, to their sugnings of over the hill Wade and Rondo. The Bulls have been stupid for years and years.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 22, 2017, 01:32:39 PM
Interesting read on Bulls Blog
"And worse yet it may be influencing the current talks with the a Jimmy Butler trade with the Celtics. Because I’ve heard it referenced by Zach Lowe and David Aldridge that the Bulls are still insisting on already-ready players like Jae Crowder of Avery Bradley in return for Butler, like they had done before the 2016 draft. This doesn’t really make sense. For one thing, trade talks becomes a non-starter from Boston’s perspective, as they want those guys for a playoff push if they’re trading for Jimmy Butler this season. And it doesn’t make sense for a rebuilding team to acquire guys like them, even Crowder who’s on a great contract (Bradley only has a year remaining before free agency), because if you trade Jimmy Butler now you’re going to be a terrible basketball team."

Full article:
http://www.blogabull.com/2017/2/22/14697712/bulls-cant-decide-on-trading-butler-and-are-asking-for-the-wrong-things-anyway

If true, then the Bulls are just stupid. They should be asking for guys like Brown , Smart or Rozier
Or Zizic and Yabusele along with picks. Not guys like Bradley and Crowder.
Is there any doubt that the Bulls are stupid after what they have been doing for years? From firing Thibs and hiring Hoiberg, to their contract decisions on Rose back when he was a gigantic injury risk, to their recent trades which seem based on getting player for player value rather than player for future assets value, to their sugnings of over the hill Wade and Rondo. The Bulls have been stupid for years and years.

I think the current frustration is that they aren't being stupid in our favor.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: jambr380 on February 22, 2017, 01:35:02 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.

I get why Chicago would want Jae Crowder.

I mean, which team wouldn't want Jae. Great contract, playing really well with good efficiency, locked up for 3 more years.

Oh, for sure.  But at a certain point Chicago needs to decide whether they want to move on from Butler with a guaranteed top 4 pick (and likely better than that) in a draft that easily goes 4 deep at the top, in addition to some solid secondary assets, or keep Butler because they didn't get the secondary asset they want.  About the only way Ainge trade Crowder is if the Brooklyn pick isn't included.

Exactly.

I don't understand why they can't accept the '17 Brooklyn and Jaylen Brown.

They were able to develop Jimmy Butler into an All-Star, and Brown literally has the same tools as Butler, so they could easily just create another JB in JB. And you get a potential top 4 pick? And Avery Bradley?

We need to move on if the Bulls can't accept that offer. That's already too rich.

The insistence of the Bulls wanting Crowder is because they want a cheap, effective player. Well, they ain't getting that.

I am going to go out on a limb and assume SL does not consider Jaylen Brown a 'secondary asset'. Due to future salary cap implications, the only player that makes sense in a trade (along with a BKN pick) is Avery Bradley. Of course if they would rather take Rozier, Young, Green, etc, then fine, but I imagine they want a legitimate NBA player (who is also still young).
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: saltlover on February 22, 2017, 01:36:22 PM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.

I get why Chicago would want Jae Crowder.

I mean, which team wouldn't want Jae. Great contract, playing really well with good efficiency, locked up for 3 more years.

Oh, for sure.  But at a certain point Chicago needs to decide whether they want to move on from Butler with a guaranteed top 4 pick (and likely better than that) in a draft that easily goes 4 deep at the top, in addition to some solid secondary assets, or keep Butler because they didn't get the secondary asset they want.  About the only way Ainge trade Crowder is if the Brooklyn pick isn't included.

Exactly.

I don't understand why they can't accept the '17 Brooklyn and Jaylen Brown.

They were able to develop Jimmy Butler into an All-Star, and Brown literally has the same tools as Butler, so they could easily just create another JB in JB. And you get a potential top 4 pick? And Avery Bradley?

We need to move on if the Bulls can't accept that offer. That's already too rich.

The insistence of the Bulls wanting Crowder is because they want a cheap, effective player. Well, they ain't getting that.

I am going to go out on a limb and assume SL does not consider Jaylen Brown a 'secondary asset'. Due to future salary cap implications, the only player that makes sense in a trade (along with a BKN pick) is Avery Bradley. Of course if they would rather take Rozier, Young, Green, etc, then fine, but I imagine they want a legitimate NBA player (who is also still young).

That is correct.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: jambr380 on February 22, 2017, 01:37:13 PM
There is also this tidbit from a few weeks ago. With many people having trade deadline fever, I thought this was a well-written post/thread written by our [currently] dearly departed LarBrd33.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88977.msg2237052#msg2237052 (http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88977.msg2237052#msg2237052)
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 23, 2017, 06:14:09 AM
Ainge is really killing me man...

First missing out on Ibaka because he didn't want to give up Rozier...
Then missing out on Cousins because of (at this point god only knows what reason)


You might not agree with the reason, but what the reason is has been extremely clear. We think he's toxic.


You mean you think he's toxic? 

Anything else is pure speculation, because I recall a direct quote from Danny Ainge a month or two ago where he specifically said that he doesn't know Cousins well enough to draw a conclusion about him.

Beyond that (which was straight from the horses mouth) all I've heard is conflicting reports.  Some people say Brad is happy to coach him but Danny didnt want him.  Now people say Brad didn't want to coach him but Danny would ahve been ok with him.  There is no consistency in the reports - it's all gibberish IMHO.

The fact is that there are few reports that say Danny actually did try making an  offer, but the Kings (knowing what Boston had) were asking too much.

Again, there isn't enough factual information for any of us to conclude why Danny didn't endup with him,

You can't just use the attitude argument on its own, because apparently Danny has had chances at Ibaka, Butler and George and from the reports so far it sounds like he doesn't want to accept either of them unless he can do so on the cheap.

The Bulls are perfectly fair to ask for Crowder.  If I were the Bulls I would do the same. They are similar players, having both playing together probably doesn't make that much sense.

Ainge just likes to stall and stall in the hope that the longer he waits, the more desperate the opposing team will get, and the lower the price will go. 

That's a bluffing game, and sometimes you end up with your bluff called, and another team swoops in with a real offer and takes the prize.

I don't blame Danny for trying to get the maximum value, but I do blame him for seemingly not knowing when to give in and just say "ok fine, we will take your superstar for our couple of spare parts". 
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 23, 2017, 06:16:56 AM
There is also this tidbit from a few weeks ago. With many people have trade deadline fever, I thought this was a well-written post/thread written by our [currently] dearly departed LarBrd33.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88977.msg2237052#msg2237052 (http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88977.msg2237052#msg2237052)

I have no issue with LarBrd33 (one of the few apparently) but I personally disagreed with pretty much every single thing he wrote in that post. 

Unless you are a young team that's just going through a rebuild and struggling to make the playoffs, you don't value draft picks over a young and established superstar.  You don't do that if you have even the slightest interest in "winning now". 
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 23, 2017, 06:28:24 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   

Yeah budgets matter but it's not a hard cap, and we have their bird rights to go over the cap and into tax territory if they wished to do so.  This ownership is willing to pay.  It shouldn't be a big concern IMO.
Saltlover will explain the financial benefits, but basically you can't get a Jae Crowder level player for anthing less than 15 million now.
Having Jae is like having another 15-20 million player on the books for 7 milion. That's a massive difference in terms of money to spend on playoff bolstering and bench bolstering.

Going into the playoffs for the next 3 years, if we want to beat GSW, we are going to want Jae as either our starting 3 or our 6th man with Marcus.

His contract is crucial to building a contender that could actually beat the Cavs.

I completely understand this, but it's mostly a moot point in this case because I would rather have Paul George on $19M or Butler on $17M then Jae Crowder on $7M...any day. 

Crowder is great value at his price, that isn't going to get us past Cleveland.  Paul George or Jimmy Butler might.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: chambers on February 23, 2017, 06:55:27 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   

Yeah budgets matter but it's not a hard cap, and we have their bird rights to go over the cap and into tax territory if they wished to do so.  This ownership is willing to pay.  It shouldn't be a big concern IMO.
Saltlover will explain the financial benefits, but basically you can't get a Jae Crowder level player for anthing less than 15 million now.
Having Jae is like having another 15-20 million player on the books for 7 milion. That's a massive difference in terms of money to spend on playoff bolstering and bench bolstering.

Going into the playoffs for the next 3 years, if we want to beat GSW, we are going to want Jae as either our starting 3 or our 6th man with Marcus.

His contract is crucial to building a contender that could actually beat the Cavs.

I completely understand this, but it's mostly a moot point in this case because I would rather have Paul George on $19M or Butler on $17M then Jae Crowder on $7M...any day. 

Crowder is great value at his price, that isn't going to get us past Cleveland.  Paul George or Jimmy Butler might.

I would love both of those guys, but to get past the Cavs, we will need Crowder. We are in the fortunate position to have signed that contract and having Jae would be an enormous benefit come playoff time.

I think Ainge is being stubborn because he should be. Chicago don't need Crowder. They are already getting a top 3 pick in one of the best drafts in years.
They can have Avery and even Rozier, but they should not and probably will not let a deal for the 2017 BRK pick fall through because they wanted Crowder badly.
They just want Jae's contract so they can deal him for another first round pick as part of their rebuild. Danny knows this and it's why he'll probably hold out.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Bobshot on February 23, 2017, 10:48:26 AM
can anyone let me know what the current trade proposal is without Jae?

I know David Aldridge pointed out that Jae is a sticking point, but what are the other parameters based on his article? Or is everyone speculating what the offer is?

Just speculation.  My gut says it's 2017 Brooklyn, Jae, Zeller, and a future non-Brooklyn 1st or Rozier.  I think Ainge does the deal if it's Bradley instead of Crowder.

I get why Chicago would want Jae Crowder.

I mean, which team wouldn't want Jae. Great contract, playing really well with good efficiency, locked up for 3 more years.

Well, they would be trading a great contract with Butler. Makes sense.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Bobshot on February 23, 2017, 10:53:41 AM
Crowder should be untouchable.  If Ainge wants to build a "sustainable" roster, Crowder is irreplaceable.

When you have the ability to add a guy who multi-time all defensive teamer who is averaging 24/6/5 then, I'm sorry, but Crowder is not untouchable.

There is nothing Crowder does that Butler doesn't do.  And everything that they both do, Butler does better.  Except maybe three point shooting, but Crowder didn't do that much better then Butler the previous few seasons.

Contracts matter too.  Every team has a budget.  The Celtics will not be able to afford Bradley, Smart, and IT after next season.  They will be able to afford IT, Smart, and Crowder.  Trading Crowder means this trade costs you both him and Bradley, and whatever else the Celtics are giving up.  Unless you're down with something like Brooklyn 2017, Bradley, and Crowder to begin with, in which case we have an irreconcilable disagreement on Jimmy Butler's value.

I'm not getting your point? 

Bradley and Crowder make about $15M combined.  Butler makes like $17M. 

Throw in Jordan Mickey at $1.8M or so to make things even, in which case we aren't taking back any more then we are giving - so now our cap situation is unchanged.

We then have same cap flexibility in the summer as we would have without the trade, so we can go after a max free agent just like we would have before - hence we can add Hayward, Millsap or Griffin and still have Butler too.

I'd much rather have Thomas/Butler/Hayward then Thomas/Hayward/Crowder. Wouldn't you? 

   

Yeah budgets matter but it's not a hard cap, and we have their bird rights to go over the cap and into tax territory if they wished to do so.  This ownership is willing to pay.  It shouldn't be a big concern IMO.
Saltlover will explain the financial benefits, but basically you can't get a Jae Crowder level player for anthing less than 15 million now.
Having Jae is like having another 15-20 million player on the books for 7 milion. That's a massive difference in terms of money to spend on playoff bolstering and bench bolstering.

Going into the playoffs for the next 3 years, if we want to beat GSW, we are going to want Jae as either our starting 3 or our 6th man with Marcus.

His contract is crucial to building a contender that could actually beat the Cavs.

I completely understand this, but it's mostly a moot point in this case because I would rather have Paul George on $19M or Butler on $17M then Jae Crowder on $7M...any day. 

Crowder is great value at his price, that isn't going to get us past Cleveland.  Paul George or Jimmy Butler might.

That's what the logic says. I think Larry might keep George now. He has plenty of time to deal him later. And George's desire to play in LA has become a factor.

I think the Celtics have a real shot at the Cavs this year with Butler and Bogut. The future is now with this not so young team.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: number_n9ne on February 23, 2017, 10:58:42 AM
Kevin O'Connor on Toucher and Rich today said he has no idea why Bulls would want Crowder. Should want picks/young players to jump start rebuild. But FO is not unified on direction. Highest ticket sales in the league leaving owner comfortable with just being in the middle. He said Olynyk makes more sense because of bird rights and control to resign, even more than Bradley.

I wonder if we put Olynyk for Mirotic swap into the deal if that helps move the needle.

I'd still like to see a 3 teamer with Philly.

Boston receives: Butler, Mirotic

Philly receives: Rozier, Felicio, 2019 MEM 1st, 2017 CLE 2nd

Chicago receives: Bradley, Zeller, Olynyk, Okafor, the rights to Nader, 2017 BKN 1st, 2018 BOS 1st, 2019 LAC 1st, 2017 MIN 2nd, 2019 DET 2nd
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: footey on February 23, 2017, 11:11:45 AM
Aldridge in the same interview on NBA TV also guaranteed that Okafor would get moved by today. Guaranteed it.  So if that doesn't happen, I would be skeptical of his saying that Crowder was the hang up in the trade with Chicago.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: chilidawg on February 23, 2017, 11:20:25 AM
Kevin O'Connor on Toucher and Rich today said he has no idea why Bulls would want Crowder. Should want picks/young players to jump start rebuild. But FO is not unified on direction. Highest ticket sales in the league leaving owner comfortable with just being in the middle. He said Olynyk makes more sense because of bird rights and control to resign, even more than Bradley.

I wonder if we put Olynyk for Mirotic swap into the deal if that helps move the needle.

I'd still like to see a 3 teamer with Philly.

Boston receives: Butler, Mirotic

Philly receives: Rozier, Felicio, 2019 MEM 1st, 2017 CLE 2nd

Chicago receives: Bradley, Zeller, Olynyk, Okafor, the rights to Nader, 2017 BKN 1st, 2018 BOS 1st, 2019 LAC 1st, 2017 MIN 2nd, 2019 DET 2nd

I'm not sure why we'd want Mirotic.  And that's way too much to give up.  I think 2017 BRK, Bradley, Zeller and maybe one other pick.  If they really want Olynyk we'd need a useful big back, preferably Gibson.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: number_n9ne on February 23, 2017, 11:27:41 AM
Kevin O'Connor on Toucher and Rich today said he has no idea why Bulls would want Crowder. Should want picks/young players to jump start rebuild. But FO is not unified on direction. Highest ticket sales in the league leaving owner comfortable with just being in the middle. He said Olynyk makes more sense because of bird rights and control to resign, even more than Bradley.

I wonder if we put Olynyk for Mirotic swap into the deal if that helps move the needle.

I'd still like to see a 3 teamer with Philly.

Boston receives: Butler, Mirotic

Philly receives: Rozier, Felicio, 2019 MEM 1st, 2017 CLE 2nd

Chicago receives: Bradley, Zeller, Olynyk, Okafor, the rights to Nader, 2017 BKN 1st, 2018 BOS 1st, 2019 LAC 1st, 2017 MIN 2nd, 2019 DET 2nd

I'm not sure why we'd want Mirotic.  And that's way too much to give up.  I think 2017 BRK, Bradley, Zeller and maybe one other pick.  If they really want Olynyk we'd need a useful big back, preferably Gibson.

I think most on the other side would say we aren't giving up enough. Bulls management is torn, need to give up more to get a star. Also, we have 4 picks next year, 3 (technically 4 including Thorton) stashed players. Need to consolidate at some point. I'd prefer Gibson too, but I think he has more value then Mirotic who they are trying to give away at this point.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: footey on March 13, 2017, 12:15:15 AM
I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: chilidawg on March 13, 2017, 12:18:15 AM
I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.

You nailed it.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: trickybilly on March 13, 2017, 12:37:08 AM
Can't shoot good and stuff.

Pass
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 13, 2017, 12:38:13 AM
I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.
24 points and 5 assists 9 free throws a game. Sounds like he does alright creating his shot.

average athleticism is absurd. Hes a terrific athlete.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: LilRip on March 13, 2017, 02:59:50 AM
I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.

This Bulls team is completely out of sync. Watching it, I realized that for Butler to average as many points as he does is pretty amazing. There is zero spacing on that team. If we landed him, I think it's a guarantee people will love him. Boston always loves hard workers who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty, like Smart, Crowder, Perk, KG, pre-diva Rondo, etc. Butler fits that mold.

(Sidenote: how is Butler "average athleticism"?)
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on March 13, 2017, 02:59:55 AM
What exactly are the Bulls trying to do--?

Super lame mix of players on their team right now---Butler and Wade must be furious.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 13, 2017, 03:20:37 AM
What exactly are the Bulls trying to do--?

Super lame mix of players on their team right now---Butler and Wade must be furious.
Wade is probably p---ed, but he's cooked. He is more part of the problem than the solution for them right now
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: jdz101 on March 13, 2017, 03:30:08 AM
What exactly are the Bulls trying to do--?

Super lame mix of players on their team right now---Butler and Wade must be furious.

https://www.facebook.com/thebuzz.nba/videos/1338268072947299/

Or they could be furious at wade for pulling crap like this.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: jdz101 on March 13, 2017, 03:35:39 AM
I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.

(Sidenote: how is Butler "average athleticism"?)

He's not particularly quick in the open court compared to gifted athletes like Jaylen for example. Still a good athlete but not extraordinary. Very few of his baskets come off the back of athleticism.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: #1P4P on March 13, 2017, 04:05:31 AM
When Danny "steals" Butler for less than what was reportedly offered, there's going to be a tune change around here (like there has been with pretty much everything).

When that #1-4 pick turns into Fultz/Ball/Jackson (between the night of draft lottery selection and the draft), meanwhile they're receiving one of the last picks in the lottery, they're going to accept the pick, non-BKN, and salary filler for Butler or not and we land George or keep the pick. I think a trade is going to be contingent on how strong the backroom assurances are that Hayward is coming. At that point, all chips will be on the table (not literally because he will be gotten for less than what's been reported).
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 13, 2017, 04:05:58 AM
I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.

(Sidenote: how is Butler "average athleticism"?)

He's not particularly quick in the open court compared to gifted athletes like Jaylen for example. Still a good athlete but not extraordinary. Very few of his baskets come off the back of athleticism.
He may not be extraordinary, but just calling him good sells him way short. He's a top tier athlete.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: jdz101 on March 13, 2017, 06:33:14 AM
I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.

(Sidenote: how is Butler "average athleticism"?)

He's not particularly quick in the open court compared to gifted athletes like Jaylen for example. Still a good athlete but not extraordinary. Very few of his baskets come off the back of athleticism.
He may not be extraordinary, but just calling him good sells him way short. He's a top tier athlete.

There are just so many freaks in the NBA these days with special athletic attributes that Butler just doesn't shine through to me as a top tier guy from that standpoint. He doesn't have the legspeed to belong on that tier with the other superstars at his size/position.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: chambers on March 13, 2017, 07:07:55 AM
I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.



(Sidenote: how is Butler "average athleticism"?)

He's not particularly quick in the open court compared to gifted athletes like Jaylen for example. Still a good athlete but not extraordinary. Very few of his baskets come off the back of athleticism.
He may not be extraordinary, but just calling him good sells him way short. He's a top tier athlete.

There are just so many freaks in the NBA these days with special athletic attributes that Butler just doesn't shine through to me as a top tier guy from that standpoint. He doesn't have the legspeed to belong on that tier with the other superstars at his size/position.


But like the great small forwards, he has gorilla like strength.
He's an above average athlete with elite NBA strength- like there is NBA strong, and then there is Lebron, Marcus Smart, Zac Randolph level strength at their positions.
At small forward it makes him elite because other guys his size may be as strong or as fast, but very rarely are they both.
What's even rarer is the fact that's both strong and fast, but can also handle the ball, shoot and has the ability to break players down off the dribble not just on straight line drives, but with a quick first step.
His gorilla strength gives him the ability to absorb contact and keep his balance where other players just don't have the strength to be able to get their shot off with a high % at going in.
Someone else who has really benefited from the weight room is Gordon Hayward.

IT is similar. He would be one of the strongest players in the NBA relative to position/size.
Absorb contact, keep going, get shot off.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Surferdad on March 13, 2017, 07:23:25 AM
Don't judge Butler by yesterday's game.  That team is demoralized and Butler has little to play for.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Ilikesports17 on March 13, 2017, 02:09:56 PM
I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.



(Sidenote: how is Butler "average athleticism"?)

He's not particularly quick in the open court compared to gifted athletes like Jaylen for example. Still a good athlete but not extraordinary. Very few of his baskets come off the back of athleticism.
He may not be extraordinary, but just calling him good sells him way short. He's a top tier athlete.

There are just so many freaks in the NBA these days with special athletic attributes that Butler just doesn't shine through to me as a top tier guy from that standpoint. He doesn't have the legspeed to belong on that tier with the other superstars at his size/position.


But like the great small forwards, he has gorilla like strength.
He's an above average athlete with elite NBA strength- like there is NBA strong, and then there is Lebron, Marcus Smart, Zac Randolph level strength at their positions.
At small forward it makes him elite because other guys his size may be as strong or as fast, but very rarely are they both.
What's even rarer is the fact that's both strong and fast, but can also handle the ball, shoot and has the ability to break players down off the dribble not just on straight line drives, but with a quick first step.
His gorilla strength gives him the ability to absorb contact and keep his balance where other players just don't have the strength to be able to get their shot off with a high % at going in.
Someone else who has really benefited from the weight room is Gordon Hayward.

IT is similar. He would be one of the strongest players in the NBA relative to position/size.
Absorb contact, keep going, get shot off.
He gets 9 free throws a game. The only guy in the top 15 of free throws per game who i could imagine calling anything less than a top tier athlete would be James Harden.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Eddie20 on March 13, 2017, 02:17:54 PM
Butler is an excellent athlete. Don't be fooled by yesterday, he's supposedly playing injured.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: kraidstar on March 13, 2017, 03:41:01 PM
My concern with Butler is that he doesn't seem like a "natural" at scoring.

Some guys shoot and drive so effortlessly, the basket just looks big to them.

Butler is more of a physical player. He can score, but he has to work at it.

He'd be a terrific complementary player to an elite scorer or two, but he can't be the guy carrying the load for us on that end.

He might fit well with IT for this reason - he's good enough to draw defenses but doesn't need to be a sniper - but I don't know if that combo is good enough for a championship, we'd need at least one more star after that.

Ainge might want to keep Crowder in a trade for a second star. If we give up too much for Butler that might hose us in out pursuit of that final piece.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: footey on March 13, 2017, 05:08:50 PM
I know it's unfair to extrapolate from one lousy game, but I am happy we did not trade for Butler and hope that remains the case this off season. Just not a fan of his game. I credit him for being a hard working over achiever, but struggles to create his own shot, average athleticism for an NBA player, and kind of boring.

(Sidenote: how is Butler "average athleticism"?)

He's not particularly quick in the open court compared to gifted athletes like Jaylen for example. Still a good athlete but not extraordinary. Very few of his baskets come off the back of athleticism.

You stated it much better than I. Thank you. TP.
Title: Re: David Aldridge: Butler trade is very real but stuck- Ainge won't include Crowder
Post by: Celtics4ever on March 13, 2017, 06:09:56 PM
Quote
Butler is more of a physical player. He can score, but he has to work at it.

So did Larry...

Quote
Ainge might want to keep Crowder in a trade for a second star. If we give up too much for Butler that might hose us in out pursuit of that final piece.

A lot will depend on who we draft and how well Brown develops.   Crowder to some degree is a great glue guy.