CelticsStrong
Other Discussions => Other / General Sports => Patriots / Football => Topic started by: kozlodoev on October 31, 2016, 01:14:34 PM
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For only a 3rd rounder. :o :o :o
Elandon Roberts must be better than we thought.
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huh? that's a head scratcher for me
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The bright side is that it is more like a late 2nd than a 3rd (and we likely will have back to back picks).
Bummer, though - I liked Collins and thought the decision was already made when we sent off Jones to Arizona. The hard cap in the NFL is really a pain in the butt.
EDIT: Thanks to those for the clarification of this being a compensatory 3rd round pick and not the Brown's pick - makes it a bit harder to swallow. Maybe there is something to Collins being a distraction - seems this really came out of nowhere.
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Hey, you know what, when you have a very good chance at being the best team in your conference, if not the league, the right thing to do is trade one of your most talented defensive players for a pick.
Who needs linebackers to win games, anyway?
You can never have enough 2nd and 3rd round picks that are destined to become backup offensive linesmen and busted cornerbacks.
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The bright side is that it is more like a late 2nd than a 3rd (and we likely will have back to back picks).
No, it's a third-round compensatory pick, which means it comes after the regular third round.
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I know he does what he does, and it always seems to work out, but this one really gets me. I think he's one of the best linebackers in the game. Must be something going on i don't know about.
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I know he does what he does, and it always seems to work out, but this one really gets me. I think he's one of the best linebackers in the game. Must be something going on i don't know about.
Apparently he was asking for a contract the Pats knew they were never going to give him.
So hey, just throw this year out the window, right? No value in keeping a guy for this season and letting him walk. Not as though the Pats have a limited window of Super Bowl contention or anything like that.
A third round pick! You can't say no to that.
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I know he does what he does, and it always seems to work out, but this one really gets me. I think he's one of the best linebackers in the game. Must be something going on i don't know about.
Apparently he was asking for a contract the Pats knew they were never going to give him.
So hey, just throw this year out the window, right? No value in keeping a guy for this season and letting him walk. Not as though the Pats have a limited window of Super Bowl contention or anything like that.
A third round pick! You can't say no to that.
It gets worse: we would have gotten a 2018 compensatory pick (likely 3rd round) if we let him go at the end of the year. This literally makes no sense unless there is more to it (and even then...)
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I know he does what he does, and it always seems to work out, but this one really gets me. I think he's one of the best linebackers in the game. Must be something going on i don't know about.
Apparently he was asking for a contract the Pats knew they were never going to give him.
So hey, just throw this year out the window, right? No value in keeping a guy for this season and letting him walk. Not as though the Pats have a limited window of Super Bowl contention or anything like that.
A third round pick! You can't say no to that.
And to think that by letting him walk and sign elsewhere for big money, the Pats would have likely gotten a 3rd round compensatory pick anyway....
I'm totally shocked by this trade. I guess we'll see more Elandon Roberts. And probably more of Barkevious Mingo.
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Hey, you know what, when you have a very good chance at being the best team in your conference, if not the league, the right thing to do is trade one of your most talented defensive players for a pick.
Who needs linebackers to win games, anyway?
You can never have enough 2nd and 3rd round picks that are destined to become backup offensive linesmen and busted cornerbacks.
I hear you, and I hate the trade, but what Bill has done with 2nd round picks probably washes out as "above normal" when you consider he got Rob Gronkowski and Wes Welker for 2nd round picks.
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Hey, you know what, when you have a very good chance at being the best team in your conference, if not the league, the right thing to do is trade one of your most talented defensive players for a pick.
Who needs linebackers to win games, anyway?
You can never have enough 2nd and 3rd round picks that are destined to become backup offensive linesmen and busted cornerbacks.
I hear you, and I hate the trade, but what Bill has done with 2nd round picks probably washes out as "above normal" when you consider he got Rob Gronkowski and Wes Welker for 2nd round picks.
I know you're right. I just can't agree with the notion of trading a guy in a year when the Super Bowl is a significant possibility. Maybe Collins was not playing up to his talent lately, and he was probably going to walk, but I think when your superstar QB is pushing 40 you have to take your chances when you get them.
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I like the part where he beats up on the Ravens and Steelers every year for us rather than landing in our division, or possibly on a major rival like the Broncos or something
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Hey, you know what, when you have a very good chance at being the best team in your conference, if not the league, the right thing to do is trade one of your most talented defensive players for a pick.
Who needs linebackers to win games, anyway?
You can never have enough 2nd and 3rd round picks that are destined to become backup offensive linesmen and busted cornerbacks.
I hear you, and I hate the trade, but what Bill has done with 2nd round picks probably washes out as "above normal" when you consider he got Rob Gronkowski and Wes Welker for 2nd round picks.
I know you're right. I just can't agree with the notion of trading a guy in a year when the Super Bowl is a significant possibility. Maybe Collins was not playing up to his talent lately, and he was probably going to walk, but I think when your superstar QB is pushing 40 you have to take your chances when you get them.
Yep, I totally agree with you.
Who's next, Hightower? Butler? Edelman? Brady???
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Such is the Patriot way. He would've cost $15 mil to franchise tag next year, and they just don't pay any one not named Tom. I'm sure we will draft a 5'8" white guy that: a) performs 80% of Collins function, b) returns punts, c) plays a few snaps per year at CB or QB, etc.
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Bummer, though - I liked Collins and thought the decision was already made when we sent off Jones to Arizona. The hard cap in the NFL is really a pain in the butt.
We should have known back then this wouldn't be enough. I mean, we still need to sign Hightower, Butler, and Logan Ryan.
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Gotta keep making trades for picks so the youth pipeline remains well stocked.
Brady is going to keep playing at an elite level forever, right? Not as though at his age that any season could be his last.
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Such is the Patriot way. He would've cost $15 mil to franchise tag next year, and they just don't pay any one not named Tom. I'm sure we will draft a 5'8" white guy that: a) performs 80% of Collins function, b) plus return punts, c) plays a few snaps per year at CB or QB, etc.
We didn't have to franchise tag him, though. We could have let him go and picked up a compensatory pick (probably also a 3rd rounder) in the 2018 draft. We traded 8 games and the playoffs worth of Jamie Collins to get a 2017 3rd rounder instead of a 2018 one. There has to be more to it
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Gotta keep making trades for picks so the youth pipeline remains well stocked.
Brady is going to keep playing at an elite level forever, right? Not as though at his age that any season could be his last.
It's a good thing the Pats have the three best QBs in the division and various other talent
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Every year, BB does something that makes me want to scream, whether it was dumping Welker, nor re-signing Revis, etc. And every time, he has proven to be right and I have proven to be wrong. In Bill We Trust has almost always worked.
But I just don't understand this one. All he got was a pick moved up by a year and he of all people understands that the difference between a 2017 and 2018 pick is not a full round. He has made a career off of those trades with other teams.
I get it. I do. We couldn't resign him. I accept that. But if he's not our most talented defensive player, he's our second-most talented. How he could give up Collins for a lousy 3rd round comp pick is beyond me, particularly this year. Brady must be flipping out.
I'm really, really hoping that he knows something that we don't.
Mike
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Bummer, though - I liked Collins and thought the decision was already made when we sent off Jones to Arizona. The hard cap in the NFL is really a pain in the butt.
We should have known back then this wouldn't be enough. I mean, we still need to sign Hightower, Butler, and Logan Ryan.
The cap is not the issue here. The Pats could have let Collins leave after the season, and likely received a compensatory 3rd rounder, which is what they are getting from the Browns anyway (a year earlier than expected).
The way I see it, there's either some locker room issue that we don't know about. Or the Patriots are about to extend Hightower, and were not planning to extend Collins, and were worried that this would create a locker room issue.
In any case, it seems like a totally dumb trade, but the Patriots success is such that they deserve a bit of a benefit of the doubt for the time being.
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Financial decision and he's been up & down all season.
Clearly, he was behind Butler & Hightower in the pecking order for retaining impending FAs.
The compensation kinda blows but the Pats were going to be hard pressed to sign all three of those guys. Might as well get something for him while you can. Rather than letting him walk.
Also, keep in mind that the league has changed the rules on trading compensatory picks.
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This trade actually makes my stomach hurt. Is this why they just traded for this Van Noy Guy.
Should really help there D> >:( >:(
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Hey, you know what, when you have a very good chance at being the best team in your conference, if not the league, the right thing to do is trade one of your most talented defensive players for a pick.
Who needs linebackers to win games, anyway?
You can never have enough 2nd and 3rd round picks that are destined to become backup offensive linesmen and busted cornerbacks.
I hear you, and I hate the trade, but what Bill has done with 2nd round picks probably washes out as "above normal" when you consider he got Rob Gronkowski and Wes Welker for 2nd round picks.
and Jamie Collins, right?
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To be fair a compensatory pick would have come at the end of the third round. Right? Whereas this pick is the Browns pick, so it's at the top right? And a year soon, which is important because Brady is going to die soon, right?
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I hope Bill's ego isn't behind this move. Collins was the heart and soul of our defense. Stunner.
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To be fair a compensatory pick would have come at the end of the third round. Right? Whereas this pick is the Browns pick, so it's at the top right? And a year soon, which is important because Brady is going to die soon, right?
The pick we get from the Browns is also a compensatory pick
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To be fair a compensatory pick would have come at the end of the third round. Right? Whereas this pick is the Browns pick, so it's at the top right? And a year soon, which is important because Brady is going to die soon, right?
From what has been reported it's the Browns Compensatory pick, so it is at the end of the 3rd round.
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To be fair a compensatory pick would have come at the end of the third round. Right? Whereas this pick is the Browns pick, so it's at the top right? And a year soon, which is important because Brady is going to die soon, right?
The pick we get from the Browns is also a compensatory pick
Which can now be bundled and traded with other draft picks.
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Gotta keep making trades for picks so the youth pipeline remains well stocked.
Brady is going to keep playing at an elite level forever, right? Not as though at his age that any season could be his last.
It's a good thing the Pats have the three best QBs in the division and various other talent
Meh. This ride isn't going to last forever. We will come back to Earth eventually as all teams do when their superstar players leave or retire. When Super Bowl contention doesn't feel like such a banal, run-of-the-mill state of affairs anymore we may lament all the times Bill puttered around the margins and accepted short term losses for the sake of getting additional picks and working the edges of the salary cap.
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I don't like this either, but I am remembering the last trade I really hated. It was when we traded Moss away for a 4th round pick from Minnesota (If memory serves correct anyways). I was so mad and thought we p---ed away our chance at a super bowl over ego. Then I saw Moss do nothing with the Vikings, get cut for insulting the Caterer and struggle to even see the field on the Titans. Anyone else remember that?
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To be fair a compensatory pick would have come at the end of the third round. Right? Whereas this pick is the Browns pick, so it's at the top right? And a year soon, which is important because Brady is going to die soon, right?
From what has been reported it's the Browns Compensatory pick, so it is at the end of the 3rd round.
Compensatory picks can't be traded. ....interestingly that is changing with the 2017 draft. In that case....stupid
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To be fair a compensatory pick would have come at the end of the third round. Right? Whereas this pick is the Browns pick, so it's at the top right? And a year soon, which is important because Brady is going to die soon, right?
From what has been reported it's the Browns Compensatory pick, so it is at the end of the 3rd round.
Compensatory picks can't be traded.
Yes, they can now. They changed the rules starting in '17.
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I just dont get it.
The patriots had one player who projected to "possibly" be the best at their position on defense. Butler will never be a CB1, our D line is becomibg quickly awful, and while hightower is our "best" LB, collins had all of the potential to hit that LB1 sphere. But no.
So out of our 3 best defensive players last year (Hightower, Collins and Chandler) we are down to Hightower. This is a tough position. This was Bradys year to get # 5 considering the lack of strength in both conferences.
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To be fair a compensatory pick would have come at the end of the third round. Right? Whereas this pick is the Browns pick, so it's at the top right? And a year soon, which is important because Brady is going to die soon, right?
From what has been reported it's the Browns Compensatory pick, so it is at the end of the 3rd round.
Compensatory picks can't be traded.
Yes, they can now. They changed the rules starting in '17.
In that case it's a stupid move by Belichick. He makes them sometimes.
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I just dont get it.
The patriots had one player who projected to "possibly" be the best at their position on defense. Butler will never be a CB1, our D line is becomibg quickly awful, and while hightower is our "best" LB, collins had all of the potential to hit that LB1 sphere. But no.
So out of our 3 best defensive players last year (Hightower, Collins and Chandler) we are down to Hightower. This is a tough position. This was Bradys year to get # 5 considering the lack of strength in both conferences.
And I don't anything has changed. They're still the favorite to come out of the AFC and probably the favorite to win the Super Bowl.
Again, Collins has been a bit up & down this season. This move isn't a death knell to their chances to win Super Bowl LI.
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I just dont get it.
The patriots had one player who projected to "possibly" be the best at their position on defense. Butler will never be a CB1, our D line is becomibg quickly awful, and while hightower is our "best" LB, collins had all of the potential to hit that LB1 sphere. But no.
So out of our 3 best defensive players last year (Hightower, Collins and Chandler) we are down to Hightower. This is a tough position. This was Bradys year to get # 5 considering the lack of strength in both conferences.
And I don't anything has changed. They're still the favorite to come out of the AFC and probably the favorite to win the Super Bowl.
Again, Collins has been a bit up & down this season. This move isn't a death knell to their chances to win Super Bowl LI.
No, but Colllins has been a difference maker in the playoffs in recent years. I dont like the trade.
You have to trust Belichick tho, the track record is too impressive not to.
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If Belichick lost control of the player, then it doesn't matter what he's traded for. You could cut him and there would be addition by subtraction.I'm assuming that his contract became a distraction for the player, and subsequently, the team.
Belichick drafted this super athletic guy from Southern Mississippi after they went winless. He was a diamond in the rough. He has since picked up guys like Mingo and Van Noy who were high draft picks at the LB position. Hopefully one of them can work out.
Thornton said it correctly: "They'd rather have Landon Roberts in the right spot doing the right things than Jamie Collins (an athletic freak) free-lancing." This is the ultimate "Do Your Job" move. Belichick wants control of everything. If Collins wasn't ok with that, oh well. I'm sure Bill will make another great draft pick.
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Is there any reason to believe that this isn't an immediate "locker room" or "culture" issue? We know BB will quickly dump anyone who doesn't conform to the system. We also know he didn't do this because of the great return he got for Collins. That leaves very few other reasons for it.
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It almost seems slightly dictatorial to me, like he's just not afraid at all to make enemies. You ask for market value? You come in high? You're gone the next day. They are just not afraid of loyalty at all there. I think ultimately they don't really believe in loyalty, which is fine, but I also don't really believe in punishing a guy the very next day just because you can.
It comes off as a message to me. Although part of the message is "I believe in you and your ability to get better and move on from one guy" and it's sending a message of "team first".
I still am not sure it makes sense to hurt yourself over a guy that wanted too much money unnecessarily.
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I just dont get it.
The patriots had one player who projected to "possibly" be the best at their position on defense. Butler will never be a CB1, our D line is becomibg quickly awful, and while hightower is our "best" LB, collins had all of the potential to hit that LB1 sphere. But no.
So out of our 3 best defensive players last year (Hightower, Collins and Chandler) we are down to Hightower. This is a tough position. This was Bradys year to get # 5 considering the lack of strength in both conferences.
And I don't anything has changed. They're still the favorite to come out of the AFC and probably the favorite to win the Super Bowl.
Again, Collins has been a bit up & down this season. This move isn't a death knell to their chances to win Super Bowl LI.
No, but Colllins has been a difference maker in the playoffs in recent years. I dont like the trade.
You have to trust Belichick tho, the track record is too impressive not to.
He got lit up by Owen Daniels in the AFC Championship game last year. He was also responsible for that huge Lynch gain on that fateful final drive in Super Bowl XLIX two years ago.
He's a heckuva talent and certainly has a high ceiling but he has also had his moments where his play has hurt the Pats. Pats are going to miss him, but at the same time, they can't keep everyone. The salary cap won't let them.
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If Belichick lost control of the player, then it doesn't matter what he's traded for. You could cut him and there would be addition by subtraction.I'm assuming that his contract became a distraction for the player, and subsequently, the team.
Belichick drafted this super athletic guy from Southern Mississippi after they went winless. He was a diamond in the rough. He has since picked up guys like Mingo and Van Noy who were high draft picks at the LB position. Hopefully one of them can work out.
Thornton said it correctly: "They'd rather have Landon Roberts in the right spot doing the right things than Jamie Collins (an athletic freak) free-lancing." This is the ultimate "Do Your Job" move. Belichick wants control of everything. If Collins wasn't ok with that, oh well. I'm sure Bill will make another great draft pick.
TP, beat me to it!
Mike
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Is there any reason to believe that this isn't an immediate "locker room" or "culture" issue? We know BB will quickly dump anyone who doesn't conform to the system. We also know he didn't do this because of the great return he got for Collins. That leaves very few other reasons for it.
Im wondering the same thing.
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I just dont get it.
The patriots had one player who projected to "possibly" be the best at their position on defense. Butler will never be a CB1, our D line is becomibg quickly awful, and while hightower is our "best" LB, collins had all of the potential to hit that LB1 sphere. But no.
So out of our 3 best defensive players last year (Hightower, Collins and Chandler) we are down to Hightower. This is a tough position. This was Bradys year to get # 5 considering the lack of strength in both conferences.
And I don't anything has changed. They're still the favorite to come out of the AFC and probably the favorite to win the Super Bowl.
Again, Collins has been a bit up & down this season. This move isn't a death knell to their chances to win Super Bowl LI.
No, but Colllins has been a difference maker in the playoffs in recent years. I dont like the trade.
You have to trust Belichick tho, the track record is too impressive not to.
He got lit up by Owen Daniels in the AFC Championship game last year. He was also responsible for that huge Lynch gain on that fateful final drive in Super Bowl XLIX two years ago.
He's a heckuva talent and certainly has a high ceiling but he has also had his moments where his play has hurt the Pats. Pats are going to miss him, but at the same time, they can't keep everyone. The salary cap won't let them.
I understand that, but if this was just about Collins wanting more than we wanted to give him, then I would have rather kept him for the superbowl run and let him walk.
We get almost nothing in return here. We basically traded Collins plus pick 100 in 2018 for pick 100 in 2017.
Collins' freelancing out on the field must have been a bigger issue than most of us realized.
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If Belichick lost control of the player, then it doesn't matter what he's traded for. You could cut him and there would be addition by subtraction.I'm assuming that his contract became a distraction for the player, and subsequently, the team.
Belichick drafted this super athletic guy from Southern Mississippi after they went winless. He was a diamond in the rough. He has since picked up guys like Mingo and Van Noy who were high draft picks at the LB position. Hopefully one of them can work out.
Thornton said it correctly: "They'd rather have Landon Roberts in the right spot doing the right things than Jamie Collins (an athletic freak) free-lancing." This is the ultimate "Do Your Job" move. Belichick wants control of everything. If Collins wasn't ok with that, oh well. I'm sure Bill will make another great draft pick.
Who's Thornton?
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It almost seems slightly dictatorial to me, like he's just not afraid at all to make enemies. You ask for market value? You come in high? You're gone the next day. They are just not afraid of loyalty at all there. I think ultimately they don't really believe in loyalty, which is fine, but I also don't really believe in punishing a guy the very next day just because you can.
It comes off as a message to me. Although part of the message is "I believe in you and your ability to get better and move on from one guy" and it's sending a message of "team first".
I still am not sure it makes sense to hurt yourself over a guy that wanted too much money unnecessarily.
It seems like the Patriots and the Red Sox both take contract negotiations really personally.
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I hope Bill's ego isn't behind this move. Collins was the heart and soul of our defense. Stunner.
He was a player who is gifted physically, but hasn't even come close to being the heart and soul of anything -- especially this season. I mean, he pretty much lost his job to Elandon Roberts.
NBA Comparison: Rudy Gay.
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I don't like this either, but I am remembering the last trade I really hated. It was when we traded Moss away for a 4th round pick from Minnesota (If memory serves correct anyways). I was so mad and thought we p---ed away our chance at a super bowl over ego. Then I saw Moss do nothing with the Vikings, get cut for insulting the Caterer and struggle to even see the field on the Titans. Anyone else remember that?
I remember that, but I also remember the Pats getting punked by the Jets in the playoffs because none of their receivers could get open.
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There's also this, but it's Lombardi, so take it with a grain of salt:
http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2016/10/31/former-patriots-executive-mike-lombardi-jamie-collins-didnt-follow-team-strategy-in-new-england-at-times/
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If Belichick lost control of the player, then it doesn't matter what he's traded for. You could cut him and there would be addition by subtraction.I'm assuming that his contract became a distraction for the player, and subsequently, the team.
Belichick drafted this super athletic guy from Southern Mississippi after they went winless. He was a diamond in the rough. He has since picked up guys like Mingo and Van Noy who were high draft picks at the LB position. Hopefully one of them can work out.
Thornton said it correctly: "They'd rather have Landon Roberts in the right spot doing the right things than Jamie Collins (an athletic freak) free-lancing." This is the ultimate "Do Your Job" move. Belichick wants control of everything. If Collins wasn't ok with that, oh well. I'm sure Bill will make another great draft pick.
Who's Thornton?
Jerry Thornton, goof ball on WEEI. He made a good point though. Bill is more concerned about a team following his lead than having a bunch of talented players doing their own thing.
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It almost seems slightly dictatorial to me, like he's just not afraid at all to make enemies. You ask for market value? You come in high? You're gone the next day. They are just not afraid of loyalty at all there. I think ultimately they don't really believe in loyalty, which is fine, but I also don't really believe in punishing a guy the very next day just because you can.
It comes off as a message to me. Although part of the message is "I believe in you and your ability to get better and move on from one guy" and it's sending a message of "team first".
I still am not sure it makes sense to hurt yourself over a guy that wanted too much money unnecessarily.
It seems like the Patriots and the Red Sox both take contract negotiations really personally.
And between them they've won 6 rings in the last 12 years.
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There's also this, but it's Lombardi, so take it with a grain of salt:
http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2016/10/31/former-patriots-executive-mike-lombardi-jamie-collins-didnt-follow-team-strategy-in-new-england-at-times/
So the consensus seems to be lack of discipline. Didn't stay in his lane. That sort of thing. Sounds reasonable. Incidentally, I always felt that was the case with Chandler Jones as well. He really was bad at holding the corner.
But even if that is the case, why not just bench him, let him go at the end of the season, and take the Comp pick in 2018? Injuries happen every week, he could prove useful. Or why couldn't we try to get a good offensive lineman or something for him? There is a possibility of another trade where maybe this becomes more logical but right now I am scratching my head.
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There's also this, but it's Lombardi, so take it with a grain of salt:
http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2016/10/31/former-patriots-executive-mike-lombardi-jamie-collins-didnt-follow-team-strategy-in-new-england-at-times/
So the consensus seems to be lack of discipline. Didn't stay in his lane. That sort of thing. Sounds reasonable. Incidentally, I always felt that was the case with Chandler Jones as well. He really was bad at holding the corner.
But even if that is the case, why not just bench him, let him go at the end of the season, and take the Comp pick in 2018? Injuries happen every week, he could prove useful. Or why couldn't we try to get a good offensive lineman or something for him? There is a possibility of another trade where maybe this becomes more logical but right now I am scratching my head.
yeah i wish we could have swapped him for Joe Thomas but Id imagine the Browns wouldnt have done that.
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I don't like this either, but I am remembering the last trade I really hated. It was when we traded Moss away for a 4th round pick from Minnesota (If memory serves correct anyways). I was so mad and thought we p---ed away our chance at a super bowl over ego. Then I saw Moss do nothing with the Vikings, get cut for insulting the Caterer and struggle to even see the field on the Titans. Anyone else remember that?
I remember that, but I also remember the Pats getting punked by the Jets in the playoffs because none of their receivers could get open.
Yeah, you have to imagine Moss wasn't thrilled with not being on an elite team like the Pats. Somebody as competitive as he was probably lost some focus.
This may be a reason so many players flounder after leaving the Pats (not just that they are on the downside of the career). It must suck having played for a perennial super bowl contending team and then going to a much worse team.
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It almost seems slightly dictatorial to me, like he's just not afraid at all to make enemies. You ask for market value? You come in high? You're gone the next day. They are just not afraid of loyalty at all there. I think ultimately they don't really believe in loyalty, which is fine, but I also don't really believe in punishing a guy the very next day just because you can.
It comes off as a message to me. Although part of the message is "I believe in you and your ability to get better and move on from one guy" and it's sending a message of "team first".
I still am not sure it makes sense to hurt yourself over a guy that wanted too much money unnecessarily.
It seems like the Patriots and the Red Sox both take contract negotiations really personally.
And between them they've won 6 rings in the last 12 years.
They missed some chances too.
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I hope Bill's ego isn't behind this move. Collins was the heart and soul of our defense. Stunner.
He was a player who is gifted physically, but hasn't even come close to being the heart and soul of anything -- especially this season. I mean, he pretty much lost his job to Elandon Roberts.
NBA Comparison: Rudy Gay.
I think Rondo might be a better comparison.
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It seems like the Patriots and the Red Sox both take contract negotiations really personally.
And between them they've won 6 rings in the last 12 years.
The Pats can get away with it because they have the greatest coach in NFL history and one of the greatest qbs. Even losing a very talented player in Collins for essentially nothing, I still think they're the best team in the league this year.
The Sox can get away with it because they do a great job acquiring and developing prospects and they can spend more money than 25 teams in the league.
Also it's entirely possible that there would have been no room for a deal with Lester if the Sox had been willing to negotiate with him, and I think it's likely Collins was going to the highest bidder, which wouldn't be the Pats, but in general it seems like they end up going for some vengeful tactics in the middle that IMO cross a line.
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The now infamous 28 yard run where Collins "does whatever he wants"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRhoKmg2NRI
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It seems like the Patriots and the Red Sox both take contract negotiations really personally.
And between them they've won 6 rings in the last 12 years.
The Pats can get away with it because they have the greatest coach in NFL history and one of the greatest qbs. Even losing a very talented player in Collins for essentially nothing, I still think they're the best team in the league this year.
The Sox can get away with it because they do a great job acquiring and developing prospects and they can spend more money than 25 teams in the league.
Also it's entirely possible that there would have been no room for a deal with Lester if the Sox had been willing to negotiate with him, and I think it's likely Collins was going to the highest bidder, which wouldn't be the Pats, but in general it seems like they end up going for some vengeful tactics in the middle that IMO cross a line.
Ill agree with that.
But I think it applies to the Red Sox much more than the Patriots. Every move Belichick makes is a calculated football decision I believe.
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There's also this, but it's Lombardi, so take it with a grain of salt:
http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2016/10/31/former-patriots-executive-mike-lombardi-jamie-collins-didnt-follow-team-strategy-in-new-england-at-times/
So the consensus seems to be lack of discipline. Didn't stay in his lane. That sort of thing. Sounds reasonable. Incidentally, I always felt that was the case with Chandler Jones as well. He really was bad at holding the corner.
But even if that is the case, why not just bench him, let him go at the end of the season, and take the Comp pick in 2018? Injuries happen every week, he could prove useful. Or why couldn't we try to get a good offensive lineman or something for him? There is a possibility of another trade where maybe this becomes more logical but right now I am scratching my head.
I would have loved Joe Thomas, but no-one is giving you Joe Thomas for a future UFA.
I mean, this deal is already a head-scratcher for the Browns, who just bought themselves half a season of Jamie Collins for their 0-8 team... not sure what they're trying to get out of this.
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So do we blame Bill when we dont make it to the super bowl irregardless of bradys brilliant performance? Or do we expect Barkevious Mingo to step in and be the ridiculous athletic freak (as he was drafted as?)
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Ill agree with that.
But I think it applies to the Red Sox much more than the Patriots. Every move Belichick makes is a calculated football decision I believe.
I think this feels different from some Bilichick trades in the past because it was in the middle of a heated contract negotiation, but I think he sometimes falls victim to thinking everyone on his roster is replaceable and he is so great he can coach anyone up. He is 90% of the time, but you still need talent. In this case you need a guy who can chase down backs and tight ends in the passing game. I'm sure Roberts impacts the game in a ton of ways I can't recognize, but does he have the athleticism to chase Leveon Bell to the sideline or down the field in the playoffs?
The one other time I think the Pats got way to personal during a contract negotiation was with Mankins. In response to the Pats apparently lying to him about the franchise tag, he said:
"Right now, this is about principle with me and keeping your word and how you treat people. This is what I thought the foundation of the Patriots was built on. Apparently, I was wrong. Growing up, I was taught a man's word is his bond. Obviously this isn't the case with the Patriots."
He shouldn't have said that publicly, but I think he said it because the Pats actually did make him a promise and broke it. And then they made him apologize as a condition to eventually signing him. This is a football team, not the freaking Corleone family.
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I think this feels different from some Bilichick trades in the past because it was in the middle of a heated contract negotiation, but I think he sometimes falls victim to thinking everyone on his roster is replaceable and he is so great he can coach anyone up. He is 90% of the time, but you still need talent. In this case you need a guy who can chase down backs and tight ends in the passing game. I'm sure Roberts impacts the game in a ton of ways I can't recognize, but does he have the athleticism to chase Leveon Bell to the sideline or down the field in the playoffs?
Despite his natural athleticism, Collins wasn't always great in coverage.
It's also worth noting that he missed a month last year with "illness", came back seemingly having lost a ton of weight (not in a good way) -- and we still have no idea what it was.
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The now infamous 28 yard run where Collins "does whatever he wants"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRhoKmg2NRI
Yeah, I can kind of see that. He should have been there to take down the RB after he got past the left tackle, but instead tried to have a homerun play where he stops him in the backfield. If he did that kind of thing regularly despite Belichick and Patricia telling him not to, I could see how Belichick could stop trusting him. This still seems a little extreme, though
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I think this feels different from some Bilichick trades in the past because it was in the middle of a heated contract negotiation, but I think he sometimes falls victim to thinking everyone on his roster is replaceable and he is so great he can coach anyone up. He is 90% of the time, but you still need talent. In this case you need a guy who can chase down backs and tight ends in the passing game. I'm sure Roberts impacts the game in a ton of ways I can't recognize, but does he have the athleticism to chase Leveon Bell to the sideline or down the field in the playoffs?
Despite his natural athleticism, Collins wasn't always great in coverage.
It's also worth noting that he missed a month last year with "illness", came back seemingly having lost a ton of weight (not in a good way) -- and we still have no idea what it was.
I almost forgot about that! I remember one game he hurdled over the line to block a field goal attempt and then he was missing for the next few games.
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Sports radio making the case that Belichick just didn't want him around anymore.
I'm fine with that but then you have to admit it's another busted draft pick.
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Sports radio making the case that Belichick just didn't want him around anymore.
I'm fine with that but then you have to admit it's another busted draft pick.
He was a key part of a super bowl team and a darn good player during his time here. I don't necessarily agree with the timing of the trade, but he was going to go for more than he's worth based on his quality of output so I don't know that it's necessarily a busted pick.
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Kind of interesting that as Barkevious Mingo has played well at the same position that collins has been viewed as less relevant.
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I think this feels different from some Bilichick trades in the past because it was in the middle of a heated contract negotiation, but I think he sometimes falls victim to thinking everyone on his roster is replaceable and he is so great he can coach anyone up. He is 90% of the time, but you still need talent. In this case you need a guy who can chase down backs and tight ends in the passing game. I'm sure Roberts impacts the game in a ton of ways I can't recognize, but does he have the athleticism to chase Leveon Bell to the sideline or down the field in the playoffs?
Despite his natural athleticism, Collins wasn't always great in coverage.
It's also worth noting that he missed a month last year with "illness", came back seemingly having lost a ton of weight (not in a good way) -- and we still have no idea what it was.
I've heard this "illness" thing brought up before. Is there speculation about what was going on there, or not?
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This is one of the few times i feel like Patriots revisionism has come into play. Last week everyone thought he was an excellent young LB. Now all of a sudden he was this and that. Well that's your fault on some level. Like you expect me to believe he was a good player all this time and then all of a sudden in the middle of contract negotiations he starts being a jerk? Really? He stops listening out of nowhere during the worst possible time?
If you didn't like him so much and it was such a problem why did you open negotiations to try to keep him?
Bottom line is if he took some sort of way below market deal he'd still be here, but he wanted what he was worth so he's gone. Belichick knew it so he controlled where he went and took the pick this year. If the defense gets injuries it will probably come back to haunt them and I've seen that too many times on this team.
Hopefully Elandon Roberts is the real deal, because now he has to be.
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This is one of the few times i feel like Patriots revisionism has come into play. Last week everyone thought he was an excellent young LB. Now all of a sudden he was this and that. Well that's your fault on some level. Like you expect me to believe he was a good player all this time and then all of a sudden in the middle of contract negotiations he starts being a jerk? Really? He stops listening out of nowhere during the worst possible time?
If you didn't like him so much and it was such a problem why did you open negotiations to try to keep him?
Bottom line is if he took some sort of way below market deal he'd still be here, but he wanted what he was worth so he's gone. Belichick knew it so he controlled where he went and took the pick this year. If the defense gets injuries it will probably come back to haunt them and I've seen that too many times on this team.
Hopefully Elandon Roberts is the real deal, because now he has to be.
My biggest problem with the deal is that if Hightower get hurt(a very real possibility) we are doomed.
Now we supposedly offered him 11 mil a year which is pretty high. It shows Belichick doesnt think too badly of him. That would make him the 6th richest linebacker in the league. Now that doesnt account for the upcoming FA linebackers that would make more than that but still.
I completely understand why Belichick doesnt want to pay Collins. I dont get the timing of the deal.
Is the kind of complicated but overall not too substantial value returned on this deal really worth being without an 11 million dollar dude for the playoff run.
Because I do not believe that Belichick would do that, I feel that there must be other motivations behind the trade.
The Collins a casual fan like myself saw was a beast. however, when I see Belichick make a move like this I look deeper. why did belichick see this guy as unnecessary for the playoff run. Based on Lombardis tweets etc it seems entirely plausible to me that Collins was guilty of not doing his job in favor of hunting for the big play.
With Van Noy, Mingo, Roberts, and Hightower they obviously feel they have enough LB talent to sustain his loss especially if he wasnt playing fully within the system.
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Sports radio making the case that Belichick just didn't want him around anymore.
I'm fine with that but then you have to admit it's another busted draft pick.
He was a key part of a super bowl team and a darn good player during his time here. I don't necessarily agree with the timing of the trade, but he was going to go for more than he's worth based on his quality of output so I don't know that it's necessarily a busted pick.
Yeah, I think in no way does this trade mean the pick was a "Bust." I think with the hard cap, the greater number of players on a team, and the draft rules, NFL picks are a bit different than NBA picks. NFL picks are a few years older and more "ready" than NBA picks, generally, and NFL careers are pretty rough and short, relatively, so while in the NBA there is the sense that you use most of the rookie contract developing a guy then the first post-rookie max extension is most of their prime, then their next max extension is rest of prime and beginning of decline, I think it's different in the NFL and you are expected to get usage out of young players.
So if we draft Collins with a second rounder, get 3.5 above average seasons, including a superbowl, from him, then get a compensatory 3rd, that's pretty good usage out of that 2013 second rounder.
This is one of the few times i feel like Patriots revisionism has come into play. Last week everyone thought he was an excellent young LB. Now all of a sudden he was this and that. Well that's your fault on some level. Like you expect me to believe he was a good player all this time and then all of a sudden in the middle of contract negotiations he starts being a jerk? Really? He stops listening out of nowhere during the worst possible time?
If you didn't like him so much and it was such a problem why did you open negotiations to try to keep him?
Bottom line is if he took some sort of way below market deal he'd still be here, but he wanted what he was worth so he's gone. Belichick knew it so he controlled where he went and took the pick this year. If the defense gets injuries it will probably come back to haunt them and I've seen that too many times on this team.
Hopefully Elandon Roberts is the real deal, because now he has to be.
I agree with a lot of this. I don't want to trash Collins on the way out. He's a great player. But they have to keep Butler, Hightower, and others. I'm also not privy to practices; they really like the guy from the Lions, and I read some hopeful articles that he was really out of position in Detroit, and maybe better suited for a Collins type role. Same with Mingo. Then there's Roberts. So if they truly believe they can fill the gaps of Collins from within, and get a better pick, I get it. And if there was some behind the scenes / locker room stuff, I get it (but I doubt there was much there). So I don't know if he was traded out of spite because he asked for too much or if the Pats genuinely thought they can fill his role with the pieces they have, so let's pick up a better draft pick. I really hope its the latter. Brady only has so many years left; we learned last year that getting home field matters, so any edge this year to get the 1 seed matters. Any edge to win it all matters. So if they really hurt this year's team just to make a point, that would be disappointing. But if they thought Collins is gone after this year anyway, we don't need him this year based on our other players, and a 3rd rounder this offseason is more valuable to Brady's window than a 3rd rounder in 2018 (from Collins walking as a FA), then I get it.
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Sports radio making the case that Belichick just didn't want him around anymore.
I'm fine with that but then you have to admit it's another busted draft pick.
He was a key part of a super bowl team and a darn good player during his time here. I don't necessarily agree with the timing of the trade, but he was going to go for more than he's worth based on his quality of output so I don't know that it's necessarily a busted pick.
Yeah, I think in no way does this trade mean the pick was a "Bust." I think with the hard cap, the greater number of players on a team, and the draft rules, NFL picks are a bit different than NBA picks. NFL picks are a few years older and more "ready" than NBA picks, generally, and NFL careers are pretty rough and short, relatively, so while in the NBA there is the sense that you use most of the rookie contract developing a guy then the first post-rookie max extension is most of their prime, then their next max extension is rest of prime and beginning of decline, I think it's different in the NFL and you are expected to get usage out of young players.
So if we draft Collins with a second rounder, get 3.5 above average seasons, including a superbowl, from him, then get a compensatory 3rd, that's pretty good usage out of that 2013 second rounder.
This is one of the few times i feel like Patriots revisionism has come into play. Last week everyone thought he was an excellent young LB. Now all of a sudden he was this and that. Well that's your fault on some level. Like you expect me to believe he was a good player all this time and then all of a sudden in the middle of contract negotiations he starts being a jerk? Really? He stops listening out of nowhere during the worst possible time?
If you didn't like him so much and it was such a problem why did you open negotiations to try to keep him?
Bottom line is if he took some sort of way below market deal he'd still be here, but he wanted what he was worth so he's gone. Belichick knew it so he controlled where he went and took the pick this year. If the defense gets injuries it will probably come back to haunt them and I've seen that too many times on this team.
Hopefully Elandon Roberts is the real deal, because now he has to be.
I agree with a lot of this. I don't want to trash Collins on the way out. He's a great player. But they have to keep Butler, Hightower, and others. I'm also not privy to practices; they really like the guy from the Lions, and I read some hopeful articles that he was really out of position in Detroit, and maybe better suited for a Collins type role. Same with Mingo. Then there's Roberts. So if they truly believe they can fill the gaps of Collins from within, and get a better pick, I get it. And if there was some behind the scenes / locker room stuff, I get it (but I doubt there was much there). So I don't know if he was traded out of spite because he asked for too much or if the Pats genuinely thought they can fill his role with the pieces they have, so let's pick up a better draft pick. I really hope its the latter. Brady only has so many years left; we learned last year that getting home field matters, so any edge this year to get the 1 seed matters. Any edge to win it all matters. So if they really hurt this year's team just to make a point, that would be disappointing. But if they thought Collins is gone after this year anyway, we don't need him this year based on our other players, and a 3rd rounder this offseason is more valuable to Brady's window than a 3rd rounder in 2018 (from Collins walking as a FA), then I get it.
I cant imagine having a 3rd rounder a year earlier helps Bradys window more than having a 2nd team all-pro linebacker for the stretch, but Bills the GOAT...
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Honestly most of Bill's moves have come on the defensive side of the ball. They refuse to overpay for guys like this. He was a defensive coordinator and probably does feel that talent on some level is overrated and not worth paying for on the defensive side of the ball. If it means keeping Butler and Ryan and guys like that then good. The pats have linebackers out the butt. Hghtower is still here. Ninkovich can slide there. Elandin Roberts has played well as a rookie. The have Mcclellin. Traded for Mingo.
As long as the Pats have Brady and Belicheck I'm not too worried. They have so much talent on offense and with the cap there has to be some sacrifice somewhere. It coming at Jamie Collins expense if you have followed the pats at all is not that big a surprise.
Keeping Gronk was obviously a priority. Collins they got a pick for him going forward and he will be replaced.
Makes sense.
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Jabaal Sheard, Dont'a Hightower, Martellus Bennett, Marcus Cannon and Sebastian Vollmer are all set to have their contracts expire at the end of the year. Alan Branch, Barkevious Mingo, LeGarrette Blount and Logan Ryan are in the same boat. The pats offered Collins a contract and he declined. He was due to be a free agent and they weren't going to franchise him with Butler here. Makes sense to spend that money elsewhere and get a pick out of it. They got a 3rd round pick too which they can turn into gold.
Collins was looking at Von Miller money and around 19 mil a year. The Pats were offering 11 mil and he declined. There was no way they were even getting close to a contract.
This is the media looking for stuff that isn't there again. They could have hung onto him for the year and just let him walk but they decided to get a draft pick going forward instead of putting all their eggs in one basket.
Belicheck has been doing this same stuff for years. Brady is going to be here for another 5 years at least it seems.
If anything this just goes to show nothing has changed there which is good.
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I don't mind that they didn't want to sign Collins to a huge deal. I won't be surprised if Butler walks. I think they get Hightower in on team friendly deal, but he'll prob walk too. There are too many bad teams with money that want to pay guys with playoff success.
Few knew much about Collins before Bill got to coach him. We will see how he does in Cleveland. I hope he does well, and wouldn't mind seeing the Browns win a couple more games.
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I hope Bill's ego isn't behind this move. Collins was the heart and soul of our defense. Stunner.
I don't know if I'd go that far. He's certainly been a big part of the defense, but I'd rate Hightower as the defensive leader.
News of this trade shocked me. I already knew the Pats were going to have to make some tough decisions regarding whom to extend, but I didn't expect this. As I've read up on Collins' situation, however, it seems that he'd fallen out of favor with Belichick—not sure why, but it helps explain why this trade happened.
I admit that I'm not great with salary stuff, but I still find the NFL salary cap structure quite confusing. How is it that Denver could give Von Miller a huge deal, also pay pretty well for Aqib Talib, and still have plenty left over for the rest of the defensive unit ... but the Pats have to ship off most of their best defensive players?
I assume that they'll now be able to pay Hightower, but maybe not? Sheard? Ryan?
It's kinda similar to how the Bruins seemingly always have to eventually trade their best players for "salary cap reasons," yet other NHL teams don't seem to have that issue nearly as often. How is a football team supposed to gather and retain a lot of quality defensive talent? You can't have a defense with 1 or 2 "well-paid" players and everyone else on rookie deals and bargain-basement contracts and expect to be good, can you?
As others here have said, Belichick knows a lot more than we do about football, and these things have usually worked out (Richard Seymour, etc.), but it's a bit of a head-scratcher for me nonetheless.
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Jabaal Sheard, Dont'a Hightower, Martellus Bennett, Marcus Cannon and Sebastian Vollmer are all set to have their contracts expire at the end of the year. Alan Branch, Barkevious Mingo, LeGarrette Blount and Logan Ryan are in the same boat. The pats offered Collins a contract and he declined. He was due to be a free agent and they weren't going to franchise him with Butler here. Makes sense to spend that money elsewhere and get a pick out of it. They got a 3rd round pick too which they can turn into gold.
Collins was looking at Von Miller money and around 19 mil a year. The Pats were offering 11 mil and he declined. There was no way they were even getting close to a contract.
This is the media looking for stuff that isn't there again. They could have hung onto him for the year and just let him walk but they decided to get a draft pick going forward instead of putting all their eggs in one basket.
Belicheck has been doing this same stuff for years. Brady is going to be here for another 5 years at least it seems.
If anything this just goes to show nothing has changed there which is good.
they were likely to get the 3rd round compensatory pick in '18 if they let him walk.
The media is not making something out of nothing. The Patriots traded a 27 year old pro-bowl linebacker from a struggling defense for very minimal value.
This isnt a non-story.
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Jabaal Sheard, Dont'a Hightower, Martellus Bennett, Marcus Cannon and Sebastian Vollmer are all set to have their contracts expire at the end of the year. Alan Branch, Barkevious Mingo, LeGarrette Blount and Logan Ryan are in the same boat. The pats offered Collins a contract and he declined. He was due to be a free agent and they weren't going to franchise him with Butler here. Makes sense to spend that money elsewhere and get a pick out of it. They got a 3rd round pick too which they can turn into gold.
Collins was looking at Von Miller money and around 19 mil a year. The Pats were offering 11 mil and he declined. There was no way they were even getting close to a contract.
This is the media looking for stuff that isn't there again. They could have hung onto him for the year and just let him walk but they decided to get a draft pick going forward instead of putting all their eggs in one basket.
Belicheck has been doing this same stuff for years. Brady is going to be here for another 5 years at least it seems.
If anything this just goes to show nothing has changed there which is good.
they were likely to get the 3rd round compensatory pick in '18 if they let him walk.
The media is not making something out of nothing. The Patriots traded a 27 year old pro-bowl linebacker from a struggling defense for very minimal value.
This isnt a non-story.
It is them looking for stuff that isn't there though. I was just listening to talk radio when I wrote that and they were in fact looking for stuff that wasn't there why the pats did this. Maybe there is some reason why that's not known, but i literally just listened to a radio jockey say i can just go by what is put in front of me and can't speculate on that stuff and then went on for an hour about stuff that wasn't even there.
He literally said he can only judge this trade on face value and then went on to pan it without even looking at what was there and said he would change his mind if this stuff that isn't there were true or something.
I love talk radio. Can't you tell?
What's there is belicheck has been doing this same stuff for years and does feel he can coach up defense and draft and because of the cap he refuses to overpay for players on that side of the ball and put all their eggs in one basket. It is in his and brady's basket. Extending Gronk was a no brainer that way. It's obviously worked pretty well so far.
So basically what I listened to was a radio DJ not even look at what was there even though he said he was and then speculate on a bunch of other crap and said he'd change his mind if some of it was true.
Filling air time and pandering to stupidity much?
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Jabaal Sheard, Dont'a Hightower, Martellus Bennett, Marcus Cannon and Sebastian Vollmer are all set to have their contracts expire at the end of the year. Alan Branch, Barkevious Mingo, LeGarrette Blount and Logan Ryan are in the same boat. The pats offered Collins a contract and he declined. He was due to be a free agent and they weren't going to franchise him with Butler here. Makes sense to spend that money elsewhere and get a pick out of it. They got a 3rd round pick too which they can turn into gold.
Collins was looking at Von Miller money and around 19 mil a year. The Pats were offering 11 mil and he declined. There was no way they were even getting close to a contract.
This is the media looking for stuff that isn't there again. They could have hung onto him for the year and just let him walk but they decided to get a draft pick going forward instead of putting all their eggs in one basket.
Belicheck has been doing this same stuff for years. Brady is going to be here for another 5 years at least it seems.
If anything this just goes to show nothing has changed there which is good.
they were likely to get the 3rd round compensatory pick in '18 if they let him walk.
The media is not making something out of nothing. The Patriots traded a 27 year old pro-bowl linebacker from a struggling defense for very minimal value.
This isnt a non-story.
It is them looking for stuff that isn't there though. I was just listening to talk radio when I wrote that and they were in fact looking for stuff that wasn't there why the pats did this. Maybe there is some reason why that's not known, but i literally just listened to a radio jockey say i can just go by what is put in front of me and can't speculate on that stuff and then went on for an hour about stuff that wasn't even there.
He literally said he can only judge this trade on face value and then went on to pan it without even looking at what was there and said he would change his mind if this stuff that isn't there were true or something.
I love talk radio. Can't you tell?
What's there is belicheck has been doing this same stuff for years and does feel he can coach up defense and draft and because of the cap he refuses to overpay for players on that side of the ball and put all their eggs in one basket. It is in his and brady's basket. Extending Gronk was a no brainer that way. It's obviously worked pretty well so far.
Im not sure what you mean.
At face value: 8 games and a playoff stretch of a 27 year old 2nd team all-pro linebacker for a marginally better compensatory situation is a terrible trade.
So the talk radio guy says this: Based on that info, which is the only cold hard info we have, it is a bad trade.
Belichick does not make many bad trades so it makes sense to then look into this and ask what it is about Jamie Collins that made Bill Belichick make what appears to be a bad trade.
Looking for something that isnt there would be drumming up controversy. Saying Collins is a bad teammate would seem to be this much as there is 0 evidence to support that. Saying he takes plays off or doesnt always 'do his job' can be backed up by film and testimony from plugged in guys like Mike Lombardi.
Now maybe nothing is there, but we should really examine the situation because at face value this trade doesnt quite add up.
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I really did just listen to a DJ talk about Collins illness and weight loss but yet he couldn't speculate on this stuff that isn't there and could just judge the trade at face value but failed to see all the other stuff and continued to speculate for an hour while ignoring the obvious reason that the patriots were not going to pay him 19 million dollars.
He was panning the trade at face value without even looking at it at face value saying he'd change his mind if this stuff he couldnt speculate on was true. But yet he continued to speculate for an hour.
If you are a defensive player in the patriots system unless there is some enigma that hasn't b een seen yet you aren't getting 20 million dollars with Tom Brady here.
The pats will trade you for a draft pick every time.
Talk radio filling air time and pandering to stupidity and creating drama that isn't there. Bill Belichick doing what is best for the patriots.
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I like the pats too because they don't succumb to media pressure. They trust themselves and the process. Belichick can draft defense. He can also coach it. Tom Brady is the guy and that tandem is the reason they win each year. The obvious reason is that. There are probably other reasons and when you put it all together and looking for a deal that was worthwhile this was it vs losing him this offseason. Nothing against Jaimie Collins. He's just another player who developed here and was due for a pay day. He'll get what he wants which was the money but as far as what was best for the team he wasn't for it.
I'd much rather envy a team like the pats than the media that drives up ratings at the sacrifice of intelligence.
If the pats have one flaw they play for the process and not to go all in one year and lose the next. They take their chances with Brady each year and Belicicks ability to put pieces around and coach them up..
Is that a flaw? Not really it's playing within the constraints of the nfl salary cap.
If the media doesn't get this by now and wants to play the oh people like me just have blind faith in belichick that's just silly.
It's what the patriots do.
If the media hasn't figured this out by now after the pats doing the same stuff time and time again maybe it's them?
I really did just listen to a talk radio guy panning the trade saying he could only look at it at face value and couldnt speculate. His reasons were the patriots just made it more difficult and then went on to speculate as to reasons that would change his mind. So this talk radio guy is apparently smarter than Bill Belichick and I'm the one who doesn't get it and am just having blind faith in belichick? He even used that line.
I admit I'm a moron for listening to that for an hour because I face palmed through the whole thing.
Seems to me like he is the one being short sighted and just looking at this season and one player who wanted 20 million dollars at the sacrifice of the entire team. I really shouldn't expect anything less from the media at this point and don't. Dude would have been happy to find any dirt on Collins he could have as well just to make himself feel better about it, while completely ignoring the reason the trade was made.
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If the patriots were cheap that's one thing but they pay guys and spend that money regardless. It's more about when they can. Having that flexibility vs going all in on players and not having that control over where to spend the money each year is much mroe valuable than one guy unless you are Tom Brady.
The reason they don't extend these guys is for that reason so they remain in control of where to spend it so they can be competitive and have a chance each and every year.
It's nothing against collins either. He wasn't going to take 11 mil or whatever for the team and that's understandable. It's a shame in ways and he's playing the game himself and playing within the cap and what's best for him. He shouldn't have to do that. So he was traded for a pick so the pats can replenish with cheaper talent and develop those players and he can get his due.
It was done with the best intent for all parties. That is what is great about it. Collins got dealt to cleveland and will have the ability to be a free agent this year. I more question why the browns would give up a pick if they aren't going to extend him though.
The pats are going to spend that money regardless. It's more their choice where they spend it though vs having it invested in a guy that is a linebacker and really makes how many plays a year with Tom Brady here? Collins is much easier replaced and not worth 20 million here. He may be elsewhere.
The pats have linebackers up their butts. Missing Collins a few plays this year isn't going to make or break a championship.
Collins because of the salary structure of the nfl was due for a pay day and he is not worth that here. It's really that simple.
Seymour, Collins, Vrabel, Ty Law, Revis, Welker, Randy Moss, Milloy, Branch etc, etc. The list goes on. Nothing against these guys. They are replaceable and the patriots have proved that. with good drafting and signings and putting their money where it counts.
Honestly these radio dj's are just spewing the same rhetoric. They must be new here. I could understand that but that's not even it. They even mention this stuff then ignore it. It's just absurd after a while. Not seeing the forest through the trees. They aren't new that's the thing. They've been spewing the same nonsense since the beginning of time lol.
It's the patriots running their team from a position of strength and keeping that flexibility within the team vs giving it to one player. Tom Brady is the only player on this team worth that. He is the G.O.A.T. though. This is coming from someone who grew up a diehard Emmitt Smith fan and watched those rivalries with Joe Montana very intentively. Tom Brady is the G.O.A.T.
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Seymour, Collins, Vrabel, Ty Law, Revis, Welker, Randy Moss, Milloy, Branch, etc
None of them were traded in the middle of a Super Bowl hunt, right? That's the difference here.
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Seymour, Collins, Vrabel, Ty Law, Revis, Welker, Randy Moss, Milloy, Branch, etc
None of them were traded in the middle of a Super Bowl hunt, right? That's the difference here.
No, the difference is we actually got something for the guys we traded, and the guys we let go for nothing weren't traded for no reason.
We traded Collins for the same thing we would have got anyway by letting him go for nothing.
If anyone really thinks the Collins situation is similar to the Welker situation should think it would be a better idea to trade Welker for a ballboy than finish a winning season with him and let him leave in free agency.
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I really did just listen to a DJ talk about Collins illness and weight loss but yet he couldn't speculate on this stuff that isn't there and could just judge the trade at face value but failed to see all the other stuff and continued to speculate for an hour while ignoring the obvious reason that the patriots were not going to pay him 19 million dollars.
He was panning the trade at face value without even looking at it at face value saying he'd change his mind if this stuff he couldnt speculate on was true. But yet he continued to speculate for an hour.
If you are a defensive player in the patriots system unless there is some enigma that hasn't b een seen yet you aren't getting 20 million dollars with Tom Brady here.
The pats will trade you for a draft pick every time.
Talk radio filling air time and pandering to stupidity and creating drama that isn't there. Bill Belichick doing what is best for the patriots.
Everybody knows that Bill wasn't gonna pay him $19 million. The issue is that he didn't actually trade Collins for a 3rd round pick - he essentially traded 8 games + playoffs of Collins and a 2018 3rd round compensatory pick for a 2017 3rd round compensatory pick. You don't trade a pro-bowl linebacker during a superbowl run just to move a pick up one year. If you consider that part of it, there has to be something more to this (it's not just a "we didn't want to pay him" situation, because, again, not paying him would have gotten us the same pick one year later)
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All I know is the nfl is different now than it was in the 80's and 90's when there was no free agency and players got paid whatever teams wanted to pay them and teams like hte cowboys and niners could build dynasties. There is an actual cap now where Belichick is not paying anyone 20 million dollars not named Tom Brady. It does not fit under the salary cap structure of the team. Blame the nfl. I'm sure the nfl will figure out soem way to blame the patriots and say they are cheating when all they are doing is playing within the rules of the cap. They have Brady locked up and only so much money to put a competitive team each year around him. Paying a defensive player 20 million dollars would completely ruin that philosophy.
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All I know is the nfl is different now than it was in the 80's and 90's when there was no free agency and players got paid whatever teams wanted to pay them and teams like hte cowboys and niners could build dynasties. There is an actual cap now where Belichick is not paying anyone 20 million dollars not named Tom Brady. It does not fit under the salary cap structure of the team. Blame the nfl. I'm sure the nfl will figure out soem way to blame the patriots and say they are cheating when all they are doing is playing within the rules of the cap. They have Brady locked up and only so much money to put a competitive team each year around him. Paying a defensive player 20 million dollars would completely ruin that philosophy.
I don't know why you're still not getting this, but the trade has nothing to do with the contract he wants. We can keep Collins till the end of the year, let another team pay him 20mil and still get a compensatory 3rd rd pick, which is EXACTLY what we're getting in the trade.
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I think people get the economic realities of the NFL. If the Pats didn't want to pay Collins and wanted to allocate resources elsewhere next year and in years to come, fair enough. However, what is "shocking" about this trade is the compensation received. If the Pats traded Collins for a first rounder, it would be business as usual (well, for Belichick) and noone would bat an eye. However, to only receive a compensatory 3rd rounder for him (the same pick we would have received had he left as a free agent just bumped up one year earlier) is the shocking part. Basically, the Pats could have played out the year with Collins, let him walk, and receive essentially the same level of compensation for his leaving. What that means is that this was a move to get Collins off the team rather than a move to get a valuable piece of compensation from the Browns. Therefore, the only possible conclusion is that Belichick viewed Collins as a net negative to this year's Patriots team. Again, prior to yesterday, I hadn't heard anyone anywhere espouse that opinion about Collins, and, again, that is why the trade is shocking. Unless people think Collins play had dropped off so much that it was making the Pats worse on balance (I don't think this), it is totally fair to conclude that Collins must have had pretty severe chemistry issues with the team in order for Belichick to think dumping him was a positive.
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My bet is that he did something recently.
Like Spikes. He does something. He's gone. Belichick's reactions are often swift. It's some sort of statement. "This guy was on slightly thin ice. Wanted way too much money. Then he really ticked me off, so I'm taking the pick now. I'm dealing with this now."
Belichick isn't known for waiting around a lot.
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http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/11/01/nfl-jamie-collins-new-england-patriots-trade-cleveland-browns
Here is a good article that sums it up. The patriots would have gotten a compensatory pick but there was no guarantee it would be as high as a 3rd rounder. Here they get a 4th rounder at worst. Collins wanted more money than Tom Brady is making and was gone from the team anyways and was not buying into what the patriots were doing both in theory and on the field.
This is still nothing new...
People weren't getting this either. I listened to it all day yesterday and they definately weren't.
There is nothing new here. Yeah the pats could have held out for better or whatever but how? He was gone at the end of the year?
They basically guaranteed themselves a 4th round pick and possibly a compensatory 3rd rounder which is the best they could have done anyways vs keeping a player that was not in tune with what they were trying to do.
You are either with the pats or you aren't. If you aren't Bill will trade you for a draft pick every time. Nothing new here.
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The cold hard facts of this trade are becoming clear to everyone now. The Pats could have kept Collins on the team for the rest of the season, even if they benched him, let him walk, and got a 3rd Rd compensatory 2018 pick. That seems like the reasonable thing to do even if you had soured on his on-field execution. There will be injuries and it might be nice to bring in Collins off the bench. Or use him as a 3rd down replacement, or mop up time at the end of games. I don't see how he could be disrupting the team so much that you would basically give him away. But of course I probably don't know the whole story.
The only possible explanation is that the Pats feel they can trade or pick up a replacement for his spot on the roster that is more valuable. It may not be a linebacker but getting rid of Collins does open up a roster spot. If they fill that spot by taking someone off the practice squad, i will be even more perplexed. That would mean that they felt the practice squad player on the bench is better than Collins on the bench. Wow, hard to see how that is possible. Now if they pick up a veteran, someone like a Chris Long but maybe OL or some other position, then this could make sense, a little. It still means that they think Collins is the 53rd best player on the team.
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I honestly think bill would put a player off the team vs having him as the 53rd best player on it if he thinks he is above it. The pats aren't going to sell themselves short and didn't do that either. They have linebackers who are ready to play over him and it just makes it easier to do that and they have an open roster spot and got their pick.
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They still get a compensatory 3rd rounder if cleveland is awarded that. They get a 4th rounder at worst.
The pats are supposed to put their faith in the league that they would have actually gotten that?
This just shows an absolute lack of faith in the league office or draft commision or whoever decides that actually doing their job which is quite funny imo and not shocking at all.
This is Belichick doing what he does and his job and giving a massive finger to everyone else in the process.
The league already stripped the pats of how many draft picks unfairly? And they are supposed to have faith that they would have gotten a 3rd round pick?
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They still get a compensatory 3rd rounder if cleveland is awarded that. They get a 4th rounder at worst.
The pats are supposed to put their faith in the league that they would have actually gotten that?
This just shows an absolute lack of faith in the league office actually doing their job which is quite funny imo and not shocking at all.
Huh?
Compensatory picks are based on a formula. How was the league going to screw them on that?
The league does a lot of questionable things. I'm not sure screwing the Pats on a compensatory pick would be one of them, though.
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Walker, you've previously said that you can see how this is a good trade based on the actual evidence available to us. We have no cold-hard evidence that Collins thinks he's above the team. All we know is that he's asking for a lot of money as part of a contract negotiation (there's nothing wrong with that) and that he made a horrible play on Sunday. What player in the NFL does that not apply to? Should we find a linebacker who doesn't want to make money or who never makes mistakes?
No one can actually argue the deal makes sense as far as value with a straight face. OK, so there's some chance we only get a 4th round compensatory pick. Do you really think that's more impactful than the chance that a starting linebacker gets hurt and we don't have a fill-in any more?
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The league stripped the patriots of picks they owned as well. That's supposed to be based on a formula too not someones opinion of what they think the pats did with no proof.
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The league stripped the patriots of picks they owned as well. That's supposed to be based on a formula too not someones opinion of what they think the pats did with no proof.
What formula is that?
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What formula is that?
(PSI - completion percentage)/(fumbles^2 + number of times Brady texted a ballboy) = number of games suspended
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The league stripped the patriots of picks they owned as well. That's supposed to be based on a formula too not someones opinion of what they think the pats did with no proof.
What formula is that?
Yeah, I think it's a secret formula, and I fully expect that the formula will now decide that the Browns didn't actually earn the expected third-round compensation pick.
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When asked about going from the best team in football to the 0-8 browns Collins said hes not worried about the organization.
Not sure what else the guy could say but that could be construed to mean Jamie Collins doesnt care about winning. Fits in with Lombardi talking about how he often played like he was back on that 0-10 college team.
Also said Browns are more of a family atmosphere. Again, hard to read into to much because theres not much else a guy can say after being traded to the Browns, but he doesnt seem like he fit in all to well over in New England.
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The league stripped the patriots of picks they owned as well. That's supposed to be based on a formula too not someones opinion of what they think the pats did with no proof.
no its not. The court rulings proved that punishment is very very subjective in the NFL.
compensatory picks are not subjective. There is literally a formula (I believe it is primarily based on PT) that kicks out the compensatory picks. They dont just send a list of FAs to Goodell and let him pick, which is more or less how the punishment worked.
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Pats offered 11 million per Year. He rejected.
He wanted around 19 million per year. Von Miller money.
Roberts makes around 600k per year, and fly's around the field and follows instructions.
In Bills mind it's an easy decision. 600k vs 19 million for similar production, No Brainer.
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Pats offered 11 million per Year. He rejected.
He wanted around 19 million per year. Von Miller money.
Roberts makes around 600k per year, and fly's around the field and follows instructions.
In Bills mind it's an easy decision. 600k vs 19 million for similar production, No Brainer.
Everything Ive seen says that the Pats discussed 11 mil a year. They did not offer it. Everyone has refuted that he wanted "Von Miller Money"
Also, no one has a problem with the Patriots not wanting to keep Collins. The problem is why dump him in the midst of a playoff run for virtually no return?
The answer must be that Collins was not as valuable to this team as many thought.
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Pats offered 11 million per Year. He rejected.
He wanted around 19 million per year. Von Miller money.
Roberts makes around 600k per year, and fly's around the field and follows instructions.
In Bills mind it's an easy decision. 600k vs 19 million for similar production, No Brainer.
That's fine for next year, but this year Collins was making ~$500k. The compensatory pick we get from the Browns isn't any different than we would have gotten if/when we let Collins go in free agency, except that it comes one year earlier. This isn't $19 million vs. $600k, it's 8 games plus playoffs with Collins and a 2018 3rd round compensatory pick vs. a 2017 3rd round compensatory pick. That is the part that's tough to make sense of (and which is being discussed in this thread), not the money. I think everyone here gets not wanting to pay him, but not wanting to pay him doesn't mean you have to trade him for such a small return
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Pats offered 11 million per Year. He rejected.
He wanted around 19 million per year. Von Miller money.
Roberts makes around 600k per year, and fly's around the field and follows instructions.
In Bills mind it's an easy decision. 600k vs 19 million for similar production, No Brainer.
Everything Ive seen says that the Pats discussed 11 mil a year. They did not offer it. Everyone has refuted that he wanted "Von Miller Money"
Also, no one has a problem with the Patriots not wanting to keep Collins. The problem is why dump him in the midst of a playoff run for virtually no return?
The answer must be that Collins was not as valuable to this team as many thought.
Or he was becoming a problem in the locker room. Pure speculation but I wouldn't put that past Belichick either.