CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: Goldstar88 on July 10, 2016, 09:07:11 PM
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It's only been a few games, but Thon Maker is looking really good so far... Today: 17points, 17 rebounds, 2 blocks in 32mins and Shot 7-15 from the field. Previous game 15 points,13 rebounds, 2 blocks in 30 min.
(Highlights below)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdB6S001WcI
Dragen Benders Debut: 12 points, 7 rebounds, 0 blocks in 29 mins. shot 4-13. Second game will be tonight against the Celtics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LaKLFD03jE
Who do you think is the better prospect?
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I mean, to be fair, maker is 32 years old...
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I mean, to be fair, maker is 32 years old...
Exactly
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Kid went from playing against high schoolers to playing against nba level prospects and looks like he dominated (by the box score at least)
I'm happy for him
And impressed with the balls the Bucks display in drafting.
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Maker looks very impressive
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I mean, to be fair, maker is 32 years old...
Much rather have Maker at 32 than Young at 12.
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Pulling for him...but it's still Summer League.
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I was a huge proponent for grabbing Maker at 16 (especially over Bender at 3 - yuck!). Good for the Bucks for being even more optimistic in their valuation and good for Maker for taking advantage of his opportunity (so far). I am pulling for the guy - it has been 'in' to totally rip the guy when there really aren't a lot of holes in his game [besides strength]. I hope he has a long, successful NBA career.
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Thon is the guy I wanted at 16. Let's see the top 10 draft picks this far have actually done something of importance except the guy Boston picked surprise surprise ::)
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ugh. if we missed on him that's gonna be a tough pill to swallow.
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Maker looks a milions times better then Bender, who looks physically uncoordinated and mentally lost out there. Not that this surprises me.
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Thought Maker would be a bust. Proving me wrong so far. Let's see how he plays against the big boys. Pulling for him to succeed.
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I haven't managed to see any of the games yet. We should be cautious though, it is summer league. The bigs tend to be less deep than guards here and there aren't proper NBA defences. The regular season is the first place we will see how they fit.
I saw a few highlights from Bender and he is getting muscled around. It's as expected but I still think the skill is there, he has a good touch on his hook shot. As he gets stronger I expect him to start rising through the ranks. You draft for long term impact not just immediate, certainly not just for their rookie summer league performance
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Here are Maker's highlights from last night's game. At 1:56 - dat pass, tho ;) ;D, lol. I love this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Vm5pGZCdo
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Here are Maker's highlights from last night's game. At 1:56 - dat pass, tho ;) ;D, lol. I love this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Vm5pGZCdo
Wow, that is impressive even for SL.
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Bender is soooo bad. Looked so lost out there yesterday. Glad we dodged that bullet (even though I hated him as a #3 pick from the start ::))
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Bender, who looks physically uncoordinated and mentally lost out there. Not that this surprises me
How dare you say that of the Second Coming.... I agree, but one could see that prior to the draft is you did not have a draft disease called eurohysteria.
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Bender is soooo bad. Looked so lost out there yesterday. Glad we dodged that bullet (even though I hated him as a #3 pick from the start ::))
I for one am absolutely shocked by this news. Shocked, I say.
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Here are Maker's highlights from last night's game. At 1:56 - dat pass, tho ;) ;D, lol. I love this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Vm5pGZCdo
Wow.
And we drafted Brown and Yabusele? Smh #palmface
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the only certain thing about bender was that he will need a couple of years. I don`t think he will meet the expectations of the 4th pick but judging him just after 2 summer league games is a bit premature
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Anyone starting to make their minds up?
I am pleasantly surprised by Bender this year.
Still a couple of days until his 20th B-day.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/makerth01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bendedr01.html
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Here are Maker's highlights from last night's game. At 1:56 - dat pass, tho ;) ;D, lol. I love this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Vm5pGZCdo
Wow.
And we drafted Brown and Yabusele? Smh #palmface
This is why I love immediate reactionary comments post draft. #theinternetneverforgets
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Anyone starting to make their minds up?
I am pleasantly surprised by Bender this year.
Still a couple of days until his 20th B-day.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/makerth01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bendedr01.html
To me it's never been close. Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special. He's still very young and will continue to get better as his body gets stronger. Whoever dismissed him based on last season, a season where he was not only adjusting to a new team, but also a foreign country, were seriously mistaken. He's also been playing even better once Watson was fired.
A totally different play this season. Again, he's still only 19.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4IlVEk0y1c
As for Maker, there are rumors that he's really 23 or so, not his listed 21.
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There is a lot of BS in this thread.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bendedr01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/makerth01.html
40% FG 5.9 points in 20 minutes and you're impressed about Bender. Such low standards!
Neither of these guys were ready to prime time and both of them were grossly over-hyped.
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There is a lot of BS in this thread.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bendedr01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/makerth01.html
40% FG 5.9 points in 20 minutes and you're impressed about Bender. Such low standards!
Neither of these guys were ready to prime time and both of them were grossly over-hyped.
Watch the video I posted above from a couple of days ago. And that's offensively. He's always been a more advanced player defensively.
Going off raw numbers don't tell the tale. You need to actually watch Bender. He's much more confident and assertive this season. Plus, he's a bit thicker. But if you want to use advanced stats, his true shooting percentage is 54% and his usage, which effects his raw numbers, is just 12.4.
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There is a lot of BS in this thread.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bendedr01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/makerth01.html
40% FG 5.9 points in 20 minutes and you're impressed about Bender. Such low standards!
Neither of these guys were ready to prime time and both of them were grossly over-hyped.
You mean Bender Supporters?
Not as many as there will be in a year or two IMO.
I am not impressed, I am pleasantly surprised how he handled the implosive surroundings in Phoenix and got better;
- coach fired
- he got 25 pounds of muscle
- new league, and culture, he was in foreign Israel before that
- inexperienced teammates, except for JD and TC
- losing at a .298 clip (29-68)
- He is not even 20 yet, that is sooo young, and the same argument many CBloggers use to describe Tatum's stratospheric ceiling.
- GMs get extended for executing owners flawed concepts and not doing much else.
Some guys would just fold to the side and put their tail between their legs. I'd rather have him that Okafor (NCAA champ and higher pick) and if I said that 2 years ago, I'd get threatening letters - Hyperbole!
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Anyone starting to make their minds up?
I am pleasantly surprised by Bender this year.
Still a couple of days until his 20th B-day.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/makerth01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bendedr01.html
To me it's never been close. Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special. He's still very young and will continue to get better as his body gets stronger. Whoever dismissed him based on last season, a season where he was not only adjusting to a new team, but also a foreign country, were seriously mistaken. He's also been playing even better once Watson was fired.
A totally different play this season. Again, he's still only 19.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4IlVEk0y1c
As for Maker, there are rumors that he's really 23 or so, not his listed 21.
Agree with all of this, not to mention he had an injury last year. How people dismissed an 18 year old with his tools is beyond me. I actually liked him more than Brown at draft time, and while I would never choose him over Brown now, I'd certainly take him over Maker without a second thought.
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WE CALL HIM
THIN MAKER! lol
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You need to actually watch Bender
Nope, you need to realize that his stats are watch he produces and it is not that impressive. No matter how you hype it. It would be real impressive if he produced meaningful stats. Your still harping on his potential.
The difference between you and I when we watch Bender is that I do not let my confirmation bias get in the way of my analysis. I think he needs to add strength and improve his shooting from the field and product at a more prolific level before I call him special. To me that term is earned not anointed.
Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special.
Perhaps there is an opening in a ballet?
The NBA does not rate guys how they move, they rate them by how they contribute to winning and stat production.
It is patently absurd to call a guy averaging 6 ppg in 20 minutes special
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Milwaukee went pretty high (10th) to get Maker. Phoenix went really high to get Bender. Both are projects. That they are even able to get on the court for regular minutes at this point in their careers is a good sign. I don't think I have actually seen either one play, definitely not this season. It is an interesting pair to watch.
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You need to actually watch Bender
Nope, you need to realize that his stats are watch he produces and it is not that impressive. No matter how you hype it. It would be real impressive if he produced meaningful stats. Your still harping on his potential.
The difference between you and I when we watch Bender is that I do not let my confirmation bias get in the way of my analysis. I think he needs to add strength and improve his shooting from the field and product at a more prolific level before I call him special. To me that term is earned not anointed.
Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special.
Perhaps there is an opening in a ballet?
The NBA does not rate guys how they move, they rate them by how they contribute to winning and stat production.
It is patently absurd to call a guy averaging 6 ppg in 20 minutes special
It's the same story all over again... the exact same arguments used before the draft to overhype him..... HE played for an awful at the time maccabi and didn't show anything , he plays for the awful Suns against he doesn't show anything
He is just a tall agile guy....
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I'll stick with Thon Maker. I like his mentality. His doggishness on defense. His willingness and desire to compete defensively. Against players bigger than himself. As well as against similar size and smaller players. To fight for rebounds. He has that desire to fight for things.
I don't see that with Bender. He has his comfort zone and likes to stay in it. To play PF instead of C. To play against players smaller than him. To play on the perimeter. Failing to fully utilize his size and skills. More passive.
They are both still in early stages of their developments but I'll take my chances on the fighter rather than the non-fighter.
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You need to actually watch Bender
Nope, you need to realize that his stats are watch he produces and it is not that impressive. No matter how you hype it. It would be real impressive if he produced meaningful stats. Your still harping on his potential.
The difference between you and I when we watch Bender is that I do not let my confirmation bias get in the way of my analysis. I think he needs to add strength and improve his shooting from the field and product at a more prolific level before I call him special. To me that term is earned not anointed.
Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special.
Perhaps there is an opening in a ballet?
The NBA does not rate guys how they move, they rate them by how they contribute to winning and stat production.
It is patently absurd to call a guy averaging 6 ppg in 20 minutes special
It's the same story all over again... the exact same arguments used before the draft to overhype him..... HE played for an awful at the time maccabi and didn't show anything , he plays for the awful Suns against he doesn't show anything
He is just a tall agile guy....
Bender has actually played decent on the whole this season with marked improvement across the board.
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You could say that but could you describe it as impressive ? Is that what you expect from such a high pick ?
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i just checked the stats for both maker and bender. i was surprised a bit.
per 36, bender scores more and rebounds better. this year, both are shooting 3 pointers are around 34%. and similar in some other stats as well.
it may take more time to really see whether any separation between their game emerges.
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Maker seems like the obvious choice - I love the way the guy competes. He was expected to go #1 for years leading up to being drafted, but then he reclassified, people soured on him as the year went by, and it was even thought that he would drop to the late 1st/early 2nd. Bender came out of nowhere, and, while he still has potential, he was never thought to have the same pedigree as Maker.
Good for Milwaukee for taking a chance on him - even though it wasn't really 'taking a chance' when you look at the timeline. Draft hype [and unhype] is very real; people were lauding Fultz as the consensus #1. I think if Philly had another chance they would probably go a different direction - especially after giving up a valuable draft pick to move up.
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You need to actually watch Bender
Nope, you need to realize that his stats are watch he produces and it is not that impressive. No matter how you hype it. It would be real impressive if he produced meaningful stats. Your still harping on his potential.
The difference between you and I when we watch Bender is that I do not let my confirmation bias get in the way of my analysis. I think he needs to add strength and improve his shooting from the field and product at a more prolific level before I call him special. To me that term is earned not anointed.
Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special.
Perhaps there is an opening in a ballet?
The NBA does not rate guys how they move, they rate them by how they contribute to winning and stat production.
It is patently absurd to call a guy averaging 6 ppg in 20 minutes special
It's the same story all over again... the exact same arguments used before the draft to overhype him..... HE played for an awful at the time maccabi and didn't show anything , he plays for the awful Suns against he doesn't show anything
He is just a tall agile guy....
Bender has actually played decent on the whole this season with marked improvement across the board.
"Special" players are typically productive early on, regardless of age. Guys who take years to do anything meaningful in the NBA usually end up somewhere between James Young and Gerald Green. Or, to put it in plain English, between "complete bust" and "eminently replaceable".
6 points in 20 minutes while shooting .400 on a HORRIBLE team that has no other goals but force-feeding minutes to young players doesn't really count as "productive" in my book.
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You need to actually watch Bender
Nope, you need to realize that his stats are watch he produces and it is not that impressive. No matter how you hype it. It would be real impressive if he produced meaningful stats. Your still harping on his potential.
The difference between you and I when we watch Bender is that I do not let my confirmation bias get in the way of my analysis. I think he needs to add strength and improve his shooting from the field and product at a more prolific level before I call him special. To me that term is earned not anointed.
Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special.
Perhaps there is an opening in a ballet?
The NBA does not rate guys how they move, they rate them by how they contribute to winning and stat production.
It is patently absurd to call a guy averaging 6 ppg in 20 minutes special
Very compelling argument you bring up. Basically acknowledging that you haven't seen him play this season and then completely misinterpreting what I said when I used the word "special".
He's improved this season. He's still only 19. He's a work in process, but dismissing his upside is shortsighted.
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Bender to me is a classic example of a guy who got drafted to the worst possible team.
Whenever I've spent any time watching the Suns it quickly becomes clear his teammates have zero interest in passing to him or involving him in any way.
I think if you're gonna draft a teenager from Eastern Europe you need to have some veteran role players on your team from the same part of the world who can help bring him along. That's what a smart team would do.
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You need to actually watch Bender
Nope, you need to realize that his stats are watch he produces and it is not that impressive. No matter how you hype it. It would be real impressive if he produced meaningful stats. Your still harping on his potential.
The difference between you and I when we watch Bender is that I do not let my confirmation bias get in the way of my analysis. I think he needs to add strength and improve his shooting from the field and product at a more prolific level before I call him special. To me that term is earned not anointed.
Bender's skills and mobility, at his size, has always been special.
Perhaps there is an opening in a ballet?
The NBA does not rate guys how they move, they rate them by how they contribute to winning and stat production.
It is patently absurd to call a guy averaging 6 ppg in 20 minutes special
It's the same story all over again... the exact same arguments used before the draft to overhype him..... HE played for an awful at the time maccabi and didn't show anything , he plays for the awful Suns against he doesn't show anything
He is just a tall agile guy....
Bender has actually played decent on the whole this season with marked improvement across the board.
"Special" players are typically productive early on. Guys who take years to do anything meaningful in the NBA usually end up somewhere between James Young and Gerald Green.
6 points in 20 minutes while shooting .400 on a HORRIBLE team that has no other goals but force-feeding minutes to young players doesn't really count as "productive" in my book.
Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league. Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Bender doesn't even turn 20 until tomorrow. Brown turned 20 in October of last year. Age matters a great deal in these sorts of things.
Bender's FG% is incredibly misleading since he is shooting so many 3's (which he is hitting at 34%). His 2PT% is 53.8 and his TS% is 54.4. All three of those are pretty solid shooting numbers and show a very marked improvement over his rookie year. That is what you would want from someone so raw and young.
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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league. Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Bender doesn't even turn 20 until tomorrow. Brown turned 20 in October of last year. Age matters a great deal in these sorts of things.
Sure, and Anthony Davis averaged 13 ppg as a 19-year old rookie and 20 ppg as a 20-year old sophomore. Karl-Anthony Towns averaged 18 ppg as a 20-year old rookie. In fact, most feature big men in the game right now were already productive in their second years even if their rookie campaigns were complete flops.
But yes, he can probably be Kendrick Perkins. I guess that's special.
edit: Oh, and it's great that you brought up Brown, because Brown actually showed you something last year -- he started 20 games, averaged 10 points and 4 rebounds in 25 mpg, and shot .400 from three over that stretch. As a 20-year old rookie.
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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league. Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Bender doesn't even turn 20 until tomorrow. Brown turned 20 in October of last year. Age matters a great deal in these sorts of things.
Sure, and Anthony Davis averaged 13 ppg as a 19-year old rookie and 20 ppg as a 20-year old sophomore. Karl-Anthony Towns averaged 18 ppg as a 20-year old rookie. In fact, most feature big men in the game right now were already productive in their second years even if their rookie campaigns were complete flops.
But yes, he can probably be Kendrick Perkins. I guess that's special.
edit: Oh, and it's great that you brought up Brown, because Brown actually showed you something last year -- he started 20 games, averaged 10 points and 4 rebounds in 25 mpg, and shot .400 from three over that stretch. As a 20-year old rookie.
Koz, you can do better.
I don't think anyone is saying he's going to be all-NBA, but he does have high upside and continues to improve. I'm not sure how anyone, except those that are either completely stubborn or haven't bothered to watch him play, can be so dismissive and think he's a bust. It's an odd stance to take for no particular reason.
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One side: Bender is still younger than most rookies and has promise that may turn out well down the road. See signs of progress.
Other side: He hasn't produced jack and sucks. 'Calling it now.
I'm not really understanding the point of being adamant about calling "bust" so early. The other side isn't even guaranteeing he won't be a bust. They are just advocating wait-and-see. Because there is no way to say for sure until the NBA gives up on a player.
Is there some prize being distributed if you later get to claim you were the first one to call a player a bust and it turns out to be true? What is there to gain here?
I still have vivid memories of posters on this forum posting images equating (then rookie) Avery Bradley to a pile of steaming hot garbage.
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Fan fact .... Tatum is 6 months younger.
I'm not really understanding the point of being adamant about calling "bust" so early. The other side isn't even guaranteeing he won't be a bust. They are just advocating wait-and-see. Because there is no way to say for sure until the NBA gives up on a player.
Speaking for myself is more of a credibility thing..... Before the draft i kept reading irrational posts trying to explain Bender's luck of play time describing the Israeli league as one of the top in the world and and Maccabi as a european powerhouse (while it was possibly the worst Macabi team ever!!). I still remember a ridiculous league ranking where a friendly summer tournament ranked higher than Euroleague !And people thought it was credible!!! Nobody had ever watched Bender play , nobody had ever watched Maccabi and obviously nobody had the slightest idea about the Israeli league but at the time they all were as you put adamantly sure he will be an all star
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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league. Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Bender doesn't even turn 20 until tomorrow. Brown turned 20 in October of last year. Age matters a great deal in these sorts of things.
Sure, and Anthony Davis averaged 13 ppg as a 19-year old rookie and 20 ppg as a 20-year old sophomore. Karl-Anthony Towns averaged 18 ppg as a 20-year old rookie. In fact, most feature big men in the game right now were already productive in their second years even if their rookie campaigns were complete flops.
But yes, he can probably be Kendrick Perkins. I guess that's special.
edit: Oh, and it's great that you brought up Brown, because Brown actually showed you something last year -- he started 20 games, averaged 10 points and 4 rebounds in 25 mpg, and shot .400 from three over that stretch. As a 20-year old rookie.
Koz, you can do better.
I don't think anyone is saying he's going to be all-NBA, but he does have high upside and continues to improve. I'm not sure how anyone, except those that are either completely stubborn or haven't bothered to watch him play, can be so dismissive and think he's a bust. It's an odd stance to take for no particular reason.
But Moranis just did. He kept yapping about how Bender is "special". I firmly believe that if you aren't showing me anything by year 2, you're almost certainly not going to be special. Didn't we have all these conversation when James Young was still around?
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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league. Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Oh, and by the way: O'Neal didn't play the first 4 years of his career because he was stuck behind two guys that would have started over him even if he were in his prime in Rasheed Wallace and Sabonis. Bender is "stuck" behind Marquese Chriss and the calcified remains of the player that was once Tyson Chandler...
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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league. Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Oh, and by the way: O'Neal didn't play the first 4 years of his career because he was stuck behind two guys that would have started over him even if he were in his prime in Rasheed Wallace and Sabonis. Bender is "stuck" behind Marquese Chriss and the calcified remains of the player that was once Tyson Chandler...
Gary Trent was getting more minutes than JO in JO's 1st two seasons. Kelvin Cato (in JO's 3rd season) was getting more minutes than JO. His 4th year, 37 year old Detlef Schrempf was getting more minutes than him. let's not rewrite history here. JO was a very talented, but incredibly raw player when he was starting out, who took a long time to reach his potential, and unlike Bender, he was American, which makes a huge difference.
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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league. Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Oh, and by the way: O'Neal didn't play the first 4 years of his career because he was stuck behind two guys that would have started over him even if he were in his prime in Rasheed Wallace and Sabonis. Bender is "stuck" behind Marquese Chriss and the calcified remains of the player that was once Tyson Chandler...
Gary Trent was getting more minutes than JO in JO's 1st two seasons. Kelvin Cato (in JO's 3rd season) was getting more minutes than JO. His 4th year, 37 year old Detlef Schrempf was getting more minutes than him. let's not rewrite history here. JO was a very talented, but incredibly raw player when he was starting out, who took a long time to reach his potential, and unlike Bender, he was American, which makes a huge difference.
I guess he miraculously reached his potential at the exact time he got traded to Indiana and got thrust into the starting lineup?
Also, let's not compare him to guys who could take minutes at SF.
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Fan fact .... Tatum is 6 months younger.
I'm not really understanding the point of being adamant about calling "bust" so early. The other side isn't even guaranteeing he won't be a bust. They are just advocating wait-and-see. Because there is no way to say for sure until the NBA gives up on a player.
Speaking for myself is more of a credibility thing..... Before the draft i kept reading irrational posts trying to explain Bender's luck of play time describing the Israeli league as one of the top in the world and and Maccabi as a european powerhouse (while it was possibly the worst Macabi team ever!!). I still remember a ridiculous league ranking where a friendly summer tournament ranked higher than Euroleague !And people thought it was credible!!! Nobody had ever watched Bender play , nobody had ever watched Maccabi and obviously nobody had the slightest idea about the Israeli league but at the time they all were as you put adamantly sure he will be an all star
So ... your motivation for trying to be first on record to call a player a "bust" ... is to attack the credibility of some other posters?
Okay.
So ... what if 5-7 years down the road ... when the player is in his age 25-28 seasons and which is a long way down the road ... the "bust" does become an All-Star? I mean, that's a long ways into the future. Or was the claim that seems to have you all bothered specifically that Bender was supposed to be an All-Star during his rookie contract?
Personally, I don't recall anyone being "adamant" that Bender was going to be an All Star, but I suppose I missed it. Or ignored it as just someone's enthusiasm for a player.
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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league. Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Oh, and by the way: O'Neal didn't play the first 4 years of his career because he was stuck behind two guys that would have started over him even if he were in his prime in Rasheed Wallace and Sabonis. Bender is "stuck" behind Marquese Chriss and the calcified remains of the player that was once Tyson Chandler...
Gary Trent was getting more minutes than JO in JO's 1st two seasons. Kelvin Cato (in JO's 3rd season) was getting more minutes than JO. His 4th year, 37 year old Detlef Schrempf was getting more minutes than him. let's not rewrite history here. JO was a very talented, but incredibly raw player when he was starting out, who took a long time to reach his potential, and unlike Bender, he was American, which makes a huge difference.
I guess he miraculously reached his potential at the exact time he got traded to Indiana and got thrust into the starting lineup?
Also, let's not compare him to guys who could take minutes at SF.
JO started 20 games or so in Portland. And 37 year old Detlef couldn't play SF. His first year in Indiana he averaged less than 13 ppg. It wasn't like he immediately went to Indy and became the 20/10 monster he was in his prime.
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Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league. Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Oh, and by the way: O'Neal didn't play the first 4 years of his career because he was stuck behind two guys that would have started over him even if he were in his prime in Rasheed Wallace and Sabonis. Bender is "stuck" behind Marquese Chriss and the calcified remains of the player that was once Tyson Chandler...
Gary Trent was getting more minutes than JO in JO's 1st two seasons. Kelvin Cato (in JO's 3rd season) was getting more minutes than JO. His 4th year, 37 year old Detlef Schrempf was getting more minutes than him. let's not rewrite history here. JO was a very talented, but incredibly raw player when he was starting out, who took a long time to reach his potential, and unlike Bender, he was American, which makes a huge difference.
I guess he miraculously reached his potential at the exact time he got traded to Indiana and got thrust into the starting lineup?
Also, let's not compare him to guys who could take minutes at SF.
I don't think he was comparing him as a player. Just noting that minutes at the PF were going to other players on the roster during JO's early years.
Another 'young big' who was a slow developer was Amir Johnson. He, like Bender, was only 18 when he entered his rookie year. He never cracked above 124 minutes for a whole season until his 3rd year and never broke past 800 minutes until his 4th year (and he _still_ didn't crack 1000 minutes that season). Finally, after being traded to TOR in his 5th season, age 22 (the age of a lot of post-NCAA rookies) he played rotation minutes (1453) and became a starter finally the year after that. Proceeded to be a starter on two different top Eastern teams for the next 7 seasons.
Amir Johnson turned out to be a pretty good player. It just took a while.
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I don't think he was comparing him as a player. Just noting that minutes at the PF were going to other players on the roster during JO's early years.
Another 'young big' who was a slow developer was Amir Johnson. He, like Bender, was only 18 when he entered his rookie year. He never cracked above 124 minutes for a whole season until his 3rd year and never broke past 800 minutes until his 4th year (and he _still_ didn't crack 1000 minutes that season). Finally, after being traded to TOR in his 5th season, age 22 (the age of a lot of post-NCAA rookies) he played rotation minutes (1453) and became a starter finally the year after that. Proceeded to be a starter on two different top Eastern teams for the next 7 seasons.
Amir Johnson turned out to be a pretty good player. It just took a while.
LOL. Let me rephrase the argument once again. Moranis said Bender is "special". I replied that "special" players will give you at least something very early on, typically first or second season. I did, and will concede again that it's perfectly possible for him to develop into Amir Johnson. Or Kendrick Perkins. Or Gerald Green. Or any other replaceable player.
But if y'all think that a nice little player in the mold of Amir Johnson is good enough return for the 4th pick in the draft... I don't know what to tell you.
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I agree Koz.
Guys are saying a player is special because he moves, that is like a notch above saying a guy is special because he has a pulse.
No stats back up this assertion
Wshares 0.1
Wshares per 48 .018
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bendedr01.html
here is what the Winshares of special players look like:
Winshares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 273.41
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 247.26
3. Karl Malone* 234.63
4. Michael Jordan* 214.02
5. LeBron James 208.22
6. John Stockton* 207.70
7. Tim Duncan 206.38
8. Dirk Nowitzki 201.64
9. Kevin Garnett 191.42
10. Oscar Robertson* 189.21
11. Shaquille O'Neal* 181.71
12. David Robinson* 178.67
13. Charles Barkley* 177.21
14. Reggie Miller* 174.40
15. Kobe Bryant 172.74
16. Moses Malone* 167.07
17. Bill Russell* 163.51
18. Hakeem Olajuwon* 162.77
19. Jerry West* 162.58
20. Magic Johnson* 155.79
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html
Are we talking a different kind of "special" because that is the only way this makes sense in terms of him being special.
Jermaine O'Neal didn't average more than 4.5 ppg until his 5th year in the league. Another very young and raw player, like KP didn't play 20 mpg until year 4.
Then don't call him special until he earns it! Problem solved. Redraft his draft and he is a second rounder.
Your initial statement that he was special was perhaps hyperbole?
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I agree Koz.
Guys are saying a player is special because he moves, that is like a notch above saying a guy is special because he has a pulse.
No stats back up this assertion
Wshares 0.1
Wshares per 48 .018
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bendedr01.html
here is what the Winshares of special players look like:
Winshares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 273.41
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 247.26
3. Karl Malone* 234.63
4. Michael Jordan* 214.02
5. LeBron James 208.22
6. John Stockton* 207.70
7. Tim Duncan 206.38
8. Dirk Nowitzki 201.64
9. Kevin Garnett 191.42
10. Oscar Robertson* 189.21
11. Shaquille O'Neal* 181.71
12. David Robinson* 178.67
13. Charles Barkley* 177.21
14. Reggie Miller* 174.40
15. Kobe Bryant 172.74
16. Moses Malone* 167.07
17. Bill Russell* 163.51
18. Hakeem Olajuwon* 162.77
19. Jerry West* 162.58
20. Magic Johnson* 155.79
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career.html
Are we talking a different kind of "special" because that is the only way this makes sense in terms of him being special.
Where is Larry Bird, who was very special, in that list??
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I don't think he was comparing him as a player. Just noting that minutes at the PF were going to other players on the roster during JO's early years.
Another 'young big' who was a slow developer was Amir Johnson. He, like Bender, was only 18 when he entered his rookie year. He never cracked above 124 minutes for a whole season until his 3rd year and never broke past 800 minutes until his 4th year (and he _still_ didn't crack 1000 minutes that season). Finally, after being traded to TOR in his 5th season, age 22 (the age of a lot of post-NCAA rookies) he played rotation minutes (1453) and became a starter finally the year after that. Proceeded to be a starter on two different top Eastern teams for the next 7 seasons.
Amir Johnson turned out to be a pretty good player. It just took a while.
LOL. Let me rephrase the argument once again. Moranis said Bender is "special". I replied that "special" players will give you at least something very early on, typically first or second season. I did, and will concede again that it's perfectly possible for him to develop into Amir Johnson. Or Kendrick Perkins. Or Gerald Green. Or any other replaceable player.
But if y'all think that a nice little player in the mold of Amir Johnson is good enough return for the 4th pick in the draft... I don't know what to tell you.
I never said Bender was special. You attributed that to me in a post you quoted of mine, but I never said nor implied Bender was special.
This is the first thing I posted in this thread which you responded to. "Bender has actually played decent on the whole this season with marked improvement across the board." Really not sure how you got special out of that. I then responded to your nonsense to say that very young, very raw players (like JO) take time to develop, especially when they are foreigners.
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Well in a 142-116 track meet, with not much defense being played, in 22 minutes Mr. Bender managed to score 0 pts. That is actually pretty impressive and hard to do.
But seriously the Suns are a disaster and the worst defensive team in the league. Their young players are being taught nothing and some even seem to be regressing. Neither Watson or Triano are good coaches. Now they are trying to play Booker at PG cause Tyler Ulis is a 5'9" 150lbs PG who can't shoot and is not a NBA player. Booker basically only has one skill and the Suns won't bother to make him a better player. I doubt players like Jackson or Chriss will ever amount to anything in that environment. So Bender will probably have to bounce around the league if he ever is going to develop into a NBA player.
At least Greg Monroe will be available soon if we want him.
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Where is Larry Bird, who was very special, in that list??
I put the link there, use it. Are you really so lazy that you can't?
I forget some here are from the spoon fed generation.
Bird is 145.8 .203 27th Right behind PP and Robert Parish.
How about that special Bender stat line last night.
21. Jerry West* 162.58
22. Dan Issel* 157.82
23. Magic Johnson* 155.79
24. Chris Paul 154.91
25. Paul Pierce 150.04
26. Robert Parish* 147.00
27. Larry Bird* 145.83
28. Gary Payton* 145.53
29. Ray Allen 145.08
30. Dolph Schayes* 142.40
36. John Havlicek* 131.72
58. Kevin McHale* 113.04
99. Sam Jones* 92.29
103. Bob Cousy* 91.11
123. Dave Cowens* 86.32
137. Bill Sharman* 82.76
138. Dennis Johnson* 82.58
146. Isiah Thomas* 80.69
150. Paul Silas 79.93
1157. Cedric Maxwell 78.51
189. Al Horford 72.66
It is a goofy stat but it also illustrates how far off base the special claims are folks.
Bender stats from last night:
Time played 22:30
FGM 0
FGA 4
FG% .000
3PM 0
3PA 2
3P% .000
FTA 0
FTM 0
OREB 1
DREB 2
TRB 3
AST 3
STL 0
BLK 0
TOV 1
PF 3
Points 0
PLUS MINUS -21
Well in a 142-116 track meet, with not much defense being played, in 22 minutes Mr. Bender managed to score 0 pts. That is actually pretty impressive and hard to do.
True