CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 27, 2015, 01:27:38 PM
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Of all players below 6'4'', Thomas is above average in his one-one-one defense. Players shooting against him average .9% higher than their normal shooting percentage.
There are many players worse than Thomas, but notable starters and sixth men include: Jason Terry, Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Rajon Rondo, Kemba Walker, Lou Williams, Mo Williams, Dennis Schoeder, Ty Lawson, Chris Paul, Jeff Teague, Patty Mills, Jeremy Lin, Brandon Knight, Mike Conley, Trey Burke, Ish Smith, Cory Joseph, and Monte Ellis.
I understand that some of those players have to guard the other team's best guard, while Thomas does not, but many of them do not have to guard the other team's best guard. Thomas does often switch onto the other team's best guard. He is right around the middle of the pack as far as the other players normal shooting percentage (meaning he is guarding players who shoot a good percentage, not just the worst shooter on the other team).
He is below average in the number of shots that his offensive player shoots per game (6.7). That is not that much. He is not being taken advantage of nearly as much as Celtic fans would say. Notable players who have offensive players shoot on them more than Thomas with the offensive player shooting better against them than Thomas are: Kemba Walker, Rajon Rondo, Ty Lawson, Mike Conley, TJ McConnell, Darren Collison, Monte Ellis, Mo Williams, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Jeremy Lin, Brandon Knight, Cory Joseph, Jeff Teague, and Lou Williams (with Dennis Scroeder right after Thomas even though he has less MPG).
His one-on-one defense is better than people think. He forces offensive players to shoot -.1% in shots over 15 feet, where he forces almost 4 shots a game. Players only 2 shots inside 10 feet and 1 shot within 6 feet against him, but they shoot a blistering +10% and +11% against him over their normal percentage. Clearly they have an advantage over him when they do get inside, but that only happens 2 times a game (not including fouls).
He is weak in team defense. Real Plus-Minus really really does not like his defense, as he ranks 76th out of 83 PGs, but still ahead of Schroder, Collison, Vasquez, and Lillard. He is just behind Jeff Teague, Mo Williams, Jrue Holliday, and Trey Burke. He is also ahead of shooting guards McLemore, Waiters, Louis Williams, Wiggins, and Crawford in the stat.
He is still involved with 5 of the top 6 lineups for defensive rating for the Celtics, who are one of the top 10 defensive teams in the NBA.
He is also involved in 5 of the top 6 lineups for a defensive team that is forcing turnovers and a historic rate. He also averages 1.5 steals a game.
Isaiah Thomas has his weaknesses, but I think Celtic fans who watch him every night over-exaggerate them vastly. He is producing like an All-star and if his own fan base does not get behind him, then he won't be recognized like the All-star he is.
Would I rather have enough talent to be able to move him to the bench. Absolutely. But whether he is on the bench or as a starter, he is and will produce like an All-star. Let's support that instead of over-criticizing his weaknesses.
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Interesting post. Thomas is definitely the weak spot defensively at times for the team, and in certain matchups he stands no chance. But I think his deficiencies overall are a little overstated as well.
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a lot of times mismatches force doubles which affect the whole D
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a lot of times mismatches force doubles which affect the whole D
Bingo.
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I luv the guy ....
But face it ......ITs lack of height is liability for the team on Defense.
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The problem isn't Isaiah's D. It's that the guy best suited to play alongside him is also really short.
When your two best players combined height is less than 12 feet, you can only go so far in this league...
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a lot of times mismatches force doubles which affect the whole D
I think I represented this well. At the beginning of the post, I talked about individual man-to-man defense, which he is above average at.
At the end, I addressed the stats that speak about his team defense. DRPM does not show him well, but the NBA lineup defensive ratings shows him pretty well, as well as the team force turnover rate while he is on the court.
The team is a top 5-10 defense with him as your starting point guard. That's really, really good. My point is that his team defense is bad, but is still not as bad as people think.
My other point was that he is not as bad as Damian Lillard, Jeff Teague, Dennis Schroder, and others. There are some stats that indicate he is better than Rondo, Holliday, Williams, Knight, and Parker too. These are legit starting point guards, and Thomas is just as good on defense, if not better than some. Maybe we are over-stating the weakness because of his height?
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There are a ton more factors you are not considering. The Celtics give up a ton more open jumpers because of the way they have to defend to compensate for Thomas. Double teams to get the ball out of his man's hands cause problems elsewhere on the floor. He isn't keeping his man from shooting help defenders are and as a result leaving the rest of the defense scrambling and rotating to compensate.
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There are a ton more factors you are not considering. The Celtics give up a ton more open jumpers because of the way they have to defend to compensate for Thomas. Double teams to get the ball out of his man's hands cause problems elsewhere on the floor. He isn't keeping his man from shooting help defenders are and as a result leaving the rest of the defense scrambling and rotating to compensate.
I believe the Defensive Rating with lineups including him would account for that. Those defensive ratings are both good and bad. The problem is that there is no way to verify what you just said, or to verify that it is his fault. Some stats would indicate that some of those are as much Bradley's or Crowder's fault.
Again, not saying he is not a weakness. Just saying that he is not as much of a weakness as people think, and that plenty of teams have a defensive weakness equal to him but still contend.
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The truth is that the lazy man's way of identifying the strengths and weaknesses in a defense is looking for a players 1) Height for position, and 2) Speed for position.
Many, many NBA scouts have assumed that height and/or speed will equal a good defender (Cory Brewer is just one who comes to mind). While pairing those athletic abilities with defensive IQ can make a great defender, many good athletes have terrible defensive habits that hurt their team (ahem, Rondo).
On the flip, lazy couch coaches see that we have no dominating 7 footer on our roster, and think that our interior defense must be bad, but the stats show that we are top 10 at defending the rim.
Or they see a player that is 6'6'' instead of 6'7'' (Crowder) and assume that is a big matchup nightmare, even though he is the number 1 small forward in DRPM.
Or they assume that because Thomas is 5'9'' he must be a matchup nightmare. He is not good, but he has not been horrible this year. The stats show that his offensive game clearly makes up for any defensive weaknesses he may have.
Also, give me a guy who tries over a guy who doesn't any day of the week. If a guy has enough respect for his team to try on defense, he can be coached into a viable defender (again, looking at you Rondo)
If Brad Stevens thinks Thomas can be played for 30 minutes a night while also wanting (and challenging his team) to become the top defense in the league, then maybe we ought step back and think a bit. Maybe Brad sees a team defensive concept where we can be a top defense with Thomas. Maybe the double team to help Thomas actually plays into out frantic style of defense. Maybe we should appreciate that we have an All-star point guard on a playoff team.
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His offense is worse than you think.
Maybe it evens out.
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There are a ton more factors you are not considering. The Celtics give up a ton more open jumpers because of the way they have to defend to compensate for Thomas. Double teams to get the ball out of his man's hands cause problems elsewhere on the floor. He isn't keeping his man from shooting help defenders are and as a result leaving the rest of the defense scrambling and rotating to compensate.
I believe the Defensive Rating with lineups including him would account for that. Those defensive ratings are both good and bad. The problem is that there is no way to verify what you just said, or to verify that it is his fault. Some stats would indicate that some of those are as much Bradley's or Crowder's fault.
Again, not saying he is not a weakness. Just saying that he is not as much of a weakness as people think, and that plenty of teams have a defensive weakness equal to him but still contend.
Overall so far this year the teams defensive rating with him on the floor is 99.1. With him off the floor it is 92.8. Can you imagine how much worse the defensive rating with him on the floor would be if the Celtics didn't do all the things they do to help compensate for him defensively. Brad Stevens tries everything to hide him, even going so far as to have him defend Chandler Parsons in the Dallas game. It in no way means he's a net negative though because you can hide him somewhat and he's so valuable offensively that it more than offsets his defensive shortcomings.
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His offense is worse than you think.
Maybe it evens out.
Give me one stat other than "five foot nine" that says he is not an Allstar.
He is averaging 21 and 6, one of only six players to do that this year.
On respectable 42%, 34%, and 86%. Numbers that could improve as the season goes (he has had a lot of missed open threes).
He is sixth among pgs in PER.
He is 23rd among pgs in TS%, but he was sixth and ninth the last two years, meaning that he should improve as the season goes. He is also still ahead of Conley, Teague, Holliday, Jackson, Jack, Wall, and Dragic in that area. There are only two players ahead of him in TS% that have a higher usage rate, meaning he is doing a respectable job with this TS% considering his usage rate. As the season goes, other guys get more comfortable and we make a move for another scorer, I expect his efficiency to rise.
He is 7th among point guards in estimate wins added among point guards.
He has the stats. He has the winning team. But he doesn't have the fan base support, and for that reason, he probably won't be an All-star.
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There are a ton more factors you are not considering. The Celtics give up a ton more open jumpers because of the way they have to defend to compensate for Thomas. Double teams to get the ball out of his man's hands cause problems elsewhere on the floor. He isn't keeping his man from shooting help defenders are and as a result leaving the rest of the defense scrambling and rotating to compensate.
I believe the Defensive Rating with lineups including him would account for that. Those defensive ratings are both good and bad. The problem is that there is no way to verify what you just said, or to verify that it is his fault. Some stats would indicate that some of those are as much Bradley's or Crowder's fault.
Again, not saying he is not a weakness. Just saying that he is not as much of a weakness as people think, and that plenty of teams have a defensive weakness equal to him but still contend.
Overall so far this year the teams defensive rating with him on the floor is 99.1. With him off the floor it is 92.8. Can you imagine how much worse the defensive rating with him on the floor would be if the Celtics didn't do all the things they do to help compensate for him defensively. Brad Stevens tries everything to hide him, even going so far as to have him defend Chandler Parsons in the Dallas game. It in no way means he's a net negative though because you can hide him somewhat and he's so valuable offensively that it more than offsets his defensive shortcomings.
Agreed. But again, my point is that he is not as bad as people think, not even near the worse point guard defensively in the league.
And that we should support our All-star point guard.
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a lot of times mismatches force doubles which affect the whole D
there it is!
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There are a ton more factors you are not considering. The Celtics give up a ton more open jumpers because of the way they have to defend to compensate for Thomas. Double teams to get the ball out of his man's hands cause problems elsewhere on the floor. He isn't keeping his man from shooting help defenders are and as a result leaving the rest of the defense scrambling and rotating to compensate.
I believe the Defensive Rating with lineups including him would account for that. Those defensive ratings are both good and bad. The problem is that there is no way to verify what you just said, or to verify that it is his fault. Some stats would indicate that some of those are as much Bradley's or Crowder's fault.
Again, not saying he is not a weakness. Just saying that he is not as much of a weakness as people think, and that plenty of teams have a defensive weakness equal to him but still contend.
Overall so far this year the teams defensive rating with him on the floor is 99.1. With him off the floor it is 92.8. Can you imagine how much worse the defensive rating with him on the floor would be if the Celtics didn't do all the things they do to help compensate for him defensively. Brad Stevens tries everything to hide him, even going so far as to have him defend Chandler Parsons in the Dallas game. It in no way means he's a net negative though because you can hide him somewhat and he's so valuable offensively that it more than offsets his defensive shortcomings.
Oh, and Sullinger and Johnson are both worse at DRTG and Bradley is only .03 better. Maybe not weakspot that many people think he is.
And guess who is worse at DRTG among players shorter than 6'4''? Ty Lawson, Rajon Rondo, Jack, Beverly, Knight, Conley, Lilllard, Teague, Walker, Bledsoe, Deron Williams, Hill, Lowry, Shroder, and Westbrook.
That's 16-17 starting level point guards who are worse than Thomas at this stat.
Would you just give Knight and Bledsoe the benefit of the doubt?
What about Lillard who consistently posts similar numbers to Thomas?
What about Teague and Shroder, both of whom some Celtics fans would rather have?
What about Conley with his All-defensive center at his back?
What about defensive "forces" like Lowry and Hill?
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There are a ton more factors you are not considering. The Celtics give up a ton more open jumpers because of the way they have to defend to compensate for Thomas. Double teams to get the ball out of his man's hands cause problems elsewhere on the floor. He isn't keeping his man from shooting help defenders are and as a result leaving the rest of the defense scrambling and rotating to compensate.
I believe the Defensive Rating with lineups including him would account for that. Those defensive ratings are both good and bad. The problem is that there is no way to verify what you just said, or to verify that it is his fault. Some stats would indicate that some of those are as much Bradley's or Crowder's fault.
Again, not saying he is not a weakness. Just saying that he is not as much of a weakness as people think, and that plenty of teams have a defensive weakness equal to him but still contend.
Overall so far this year the teams defensive rating with him on the floor is 99.1. With him off the floor it is 92.8. Can you imagine how much worse the defensive rating with him on the floor would be if the Celtics didn't do all the things they do to help compensate for him defensively. Brad Stevens tries everything to hide him, even going so far as to have him defend Chandler Parsons in the Dallas game. It in no way means he's a net negative though because you can hide him somewhat and he's so valuable offensively that it more than offsets his defensive shortcomings.
Oh, and Sullinger and Johnson are both worse at DRTG and Bradley is only .03 better. Maybe not weakspot that many people think he is.
And guess who is worse at DRTG among players shorter than 6'4''? Ty Lawson, Rajon Rondo, Jack, Beverly, Knight, Conley, Lilllard, Teague, Walker, Bledsoe, Deron Williams, Hill, Lowry, Shroder, and Westbrook.
That's 16-17 starting level point guards who are worse than Thomas at this stat.
Would you just give Knight and Bledsoe the benefit of the doubt?
What about Lillard who consistently posts similar numbers to Thomas?
What about Teague and Shroder, both of whom some Celtics fans would rather have?
What about Conley with his All-defensive center at his back?
What about defensive "forces" like Lowry and Hill?
Defensive rating is not evaluating an individuals defense. It is evaluating a teams defense or an individuals defense as part of a lineup when he is on the floor. Many great defenders have poor Def. Rat. purely because everyone they play with sucks(think Anthony Davis right now 104.8). Just because a given player is part of a great defense doesn't mean that he should be given credit for that rating or visa versa. It must be looked at subjectively to determine whether or not they are the reason for it or not and in IT's case as much as I like him he is in no way responsible for the good defensive ratings some of his lineups have.
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His offense is worse than you think.
Maybe it evens out.
Give me one stat other than "five foot nine" that says he is not an Allstar.
He is averaging 21 and 6, one of only six players to do that this year.
On respectable 42%, 34%, and 86%. Numbers that could improve as the season goes (he has had a lot of missed open threes).
He is sixth among pgs in PER.
He is 23rd among pgs in TS%, but he was sixth and ninth the last two years, meaning that he should improve as the season goes. He is also still ahead of Conley, Teague, Holliday, Jackson, Jack, Wall, and Dragic in that area. There are only two players ahead of him in TS% that have a higher usage rate, meaning he is doing a respectable job with this TS% considering his usage rate. As the season goes, other guys get more comfortable and we make a move for another scorer, I expect his efficiency to rise.
He is 7th among point guards in estimate wins added among point guards.
He has the stats. He has the winning team. But he doesn't have the fan base support, and for that reason, he probably won't be an All-star.
His usage is pretty high. He's a borderline top 50 player right now. 42%/34% isn't anything to celebrate.
I'm not knocking him. He's our best offensive player. But I'd say his defense is about as underrated as his offense is overrated.
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His offense is worse than you think.
Maybe it evens out.
Give me one stat other than "five foot nine" that says he is not an Allstar.
He is averaging 21 and 6, one of only six players to do that this year.
On respectable 42%, 34%, and 86%. Numbers that could improve as the season goes (he has had a lot of missed open threes).
He is sixth among pgs in PER.
He is 23rd among pgs in TS%, but he was sixth and ninth the last two years, meaning that he should improve as the season goes. He is also still ahead of Conley, Teague, Holliday, Jackson, Jack, Wall, and Dragic in that area. There are only two players ahead of him in TS% that have a higher usage rate, meaning he is doing a respectable job with this TS% considering his usage rate. As the season goes, other guys get more comfortable and we make a move for another scorer, I expect his efficiency to rise.
He is 7th among point guards in estimate wins added among point guards.
He has the stats. He has the winning team. But he doesn't have the fan base support, and for that reason, he probably won't be an All-star.
Unless he gets more votes than Wade, Wall, Lowry etc it will be up to the Coaches to vote him in, all is not lost.I personally don't like his game, but each to their own.
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His offense is worse than you think.
Maybe it evens out.
Give me one stat other than "five foot nine" that says he is not an Allstar.
He is averaging 21 and 6, one of only six players to do that this year.
On respectable 42%, 34%, and 86%. Numbers that could improve as the season goes (he has had a lot of missed open threes).
He is sixth among pgs in PER.
He is 23rd among pgs in TS%, but he was sixth and ninth the last two years, meaning that he should improve as the season goes. He is also still ahead of Conley, Teague, Holliday, Jackson, Jack, Wall, and Dragic in that area. There are only two players ahead of him in TS% that have a higher usage rate, meaning he is doing a respectable job with this TS% considering his usage rate. As the season goes, other guys get more comfortable and we make a move for another scorer, I expect his efficiency to rise.
He is 7th among point guards in estimate wins added among point guards.
He has the stats. He has the winning team. But he doesn't have the fan base support, and for that reason, he probably won't be an All-star.
His usage is pretty high. He's a borderline top 50 player right now. 42%/34% isn't anything to celebrate.
He just brought up Thomas's TS%, which is a better indicator of efficiency than raw field goal percentages.
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His offense is worse than you think.
Maybe it evens out.
Give me one stat other than "five foot nine" that says he is not an Allstar.
He is averaging 21 and 6, one of only six players to do that this year.
On respectable 42%, 34%, and 86%. Numbers that could improve as the season goes (he has had a lot of missed open threes).
He is sixth among pgs in PER.
He is 23rd among pgs in TS%, but he was sixth and ninth the last two years, meaning that he should improve as the season goes. He is also still ahead of Conley, Teague, Holliday, Jackson, Jack, Wall, and Dragic in that area. There are only two players ahead of him in TS% that have a higher usage rate, meaning he is doing a respectable job with this TS% considering his usage rate. As the season goes, other guys get more comfortable and we make a move for another scorer, I expect his efficiency to rise.
He is 7th among point guards in estimate wins added among point guards.
He has the stats. He has the winning team. But he doesn't have the fan base support, and for that reason, he probably won't be an All-star.
His usage is pretty high. He's a borderline top 50 player right now. 42%/34% isn't anything to celebrate.
He just brought up Thomas's TS%, which is a better indicator of efficiency than raw field goal percentages.
People LOVE bringing up that stat out of context. He's 97th in the league in TS%.
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There are a ton more factors you are not considering. The Celtics give up a ton more open jumpers because of the way they have to defend to compensate for Thomas. Double teams to get the ball out of his man's hands cause problems elsewhere on the floor. He isn't keeping his man from shooting help defenders are and as a result leaving the rest of the defense scrambling and rotating to compensate.
I believe the Defensive Rating with lineups including him would account for that. Those defensive ratings are both good and bad. The problem is that there is no way to verify what you just said, or to verify that it is his fault. Some stats would indicate that some of those are as much Bradley's or Crowder's fault.
Again, not saying he is not a weakness. Just saying that he is not as much of a weakness as people think, and that plenty of teams have a defensive weakness equal to him but still contend.
Overall so far this year the teams defensive rating with him on the floor is 99.1. With him off the floor it is 92.8. Can you imagine how much worse the defensive rating with him on the floor would be if the Celtics didn't do all the things they do to help compensate for him defensively. Brad Stevens tries everything to hide him, even going so far as to have him defend Chandler Parsons in the Dallas game. It in no way means he's a net negative though because you can hide him somewhat and he's so valuable offensively that it more than offsets his defensive shortcomings.
Oh, and Sullinger and Johnson are both worse at DRTG and Bradley is only .03 better. Maybe not weakspot that many people think he is.
And guess who is worse at DRTG among players shorter than 6'4''? Ty Lawson, Rajon Rondo, Jack, Beverly, Knight, Conley, Lilllard, Teague, Walker, Bledsoe, Deron Williams, Hill, Lowry, Shroder, and Westbrook.
That's 16-17 starting level point guards who are worse than Thomas at this stat.
Would you just give Knight and Bledsoe the benefit of the doubt?
What about Lillard who consistently posts similar numbers to Thomas?
What about Teague and Shroder, both of whom some Celtics fans would rather have?
What about Conley with his All-defensive center at his back?
What about defensive "forces" like Lowry and Hill?
Defensive rating is not evaluating an individuals defense. It is evaluating a teams defense or an individuals defense as part of a lineup when he is on the floor. Many great defenders have poor Def. Rat. purely because everyone they play with sucks(think Anthony Davis right now 104.8). Just because a given player is part of a great defense doesn't mean that he should be given credit for that rating or visa versa. It must be looked at subjectively to determine whether or not they are the reason for it or not and in IT's case as much as I like him he is in no way responsible for the good defensive ratings some of his lineups have.
First of all, Anthony Davis may be the most overrated defender in the league right now. He has never had a good defensive percentage at the rim, never anchored an above average defense, and never been known as a shut down guy yet. Blocks are there. Ability is there. But he has yet to leverage that into good defense individually or as a team.
Secondly, I know what defensive rating is. My goal in bringing it up is to supplement some stats about his team defense. That stat shows one aspect of his team defense. I understand that does not necessarily mean he is the reason why they are that good, but I also know that that says he may not be the defensive sieve that people make him out to be.
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His offense is worse than you think.
Maybe it evens out.
Give me one stat other than "five foot nine" that says he is not an Allstar.
He is averaging 21 and 6, one of only six players to do that this year.
On respectable 42%, 34%, and 86%. Numbers that could improve as the season goes (he has had a lot of missed open threes).
He is sixth among pgs in PER.
He is 23rd among pgs in TS%, but he was sixth and ninth the last two years, meaning that he should improve as the season goes. He is also still ahead of Conley, Teague, Holliday, Jackson, Jack, Wall, and Dragic in that area. There are only two players ahead of him in TS% that have a higher usage rate, meaning he is doing a respectable job with this TS% considering his usage rate. As the season goes, other guys get more comfortable and we make a move for another scorer, I expect his efficiency to rise.
He is 7th among point guards in estimate wins added among point guards.
He has the stats. He has the winning team. But he doesn't have the fan base support, and for that reason, he probably won't be an All-star.
His usage is pretty high. He's a borderline top 50 player right now. 42%/34% isn't anything to celebrate.
He just brought up Thomas's TS%, which is a better indicator of efficiency than raw field goal percentages.
People LOVE bringing up that stat out of context. He's 97th in the league in TS%.
Don't take me out of context. I brought it up to say two things: 1) It is significantly lower than it has been the last two years, but it is still a respectable percentage considering his usage rate, and 2) To prove that many of the guys people would take over him have a worse true shooting percentage.
Lillard is much worse of a defender by every metric, and less efficient of a scorer by TS%, but most fans would rather have Lillard and think he is an All-star. Conley, Clarkson, Jackson, Teague, Wall, Holliday, Dragic, Rondo, Schroder, Rubio, Rose, Payton, Lawson are all other examples of players with worst TS%.
Take all the metrics together, and it is obvious that he is a top 10 PG in the league right now, not a sixth man. And he deserves to be an All-star if we win at least 40.
Oh, and he deserves to be an All-star if he keeps outplaying Wall, Teague, Lowry, Hill, Ellis, Parker, Jack, and anyone else he plays against.
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Who deserves to be an All-star more at this point:
Wall or Thomas?
Teague or Thomas?
Rose or Thomas?
Jackson or Thomas?
Walker or Thomas?
Dragic or Thomas?
Thomas has better numbers with less talent than all of them. He has led our team to more wins than most of those teams, all with more responsibility on his shoulders.
Stop acting like Lakers' fans watching Celtics' games. Our guy deserves to be an All-star, even though he has some weaknesses to his game. Get behind him. There is no way our little leader with a big heart and a bigger game becomes an All-star without grassroots support.
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No its not unfortunately..
Was Bradley's defensive RAPM a victim of playing most of his minutes with weak defender Isaiah Thomas? According to NBA.com/Stats, the Celtics did have a slightly better 106.6 defensive rating when Bradley played without Thomas, as compared to 107.9 when they played together. But that discrepancy paled in comparison to the same split for teammate Marcus Smart. Boston gave up only 96.2 points per 100 possessions when Smart played without Thomas, as compared to 111.6 with him. No wonder Smart did have a strong plus-0.5 defensive RPM.
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A totally misleading stat. IT requires more help than any defender in the league, I'm sure at times the switch, or help D does work efficiently, but it's an energy drain on the team in general.
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IT get himself some new elevator shoes ? :o
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A totally misleading stat. IT requires more help than any defender in the league, I'm sure at times the switch, or help D does work efficiently, but it's an energy drain on the team in general.
Yes
And lack of size is only one part of the equation ...
Chris Paul , Kemba Walker are also short pgs but not considered nearly as a liability on the defensive end
Its surprising to see IT4 low steal numbers considering how quick he is
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This thread is from two years ago
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How do you know what I think? Get out of my head, kook!
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Both times I have checked this thread today, I was psyched to see LarBrd had returned. I guess I am easily fooled.
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actually, no it is not.
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Both times I have checked this thread today, I was psyched to see LarBrd had returned. I guess I am easily fooled.
looks like he came back to hit post #20,000
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Stop this nonsense, this is basketball, you can't be 5"9 and not be horrible on defense, you just can't
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a lot of times mismatches force doubles which affect the whole D
Sometimes you will have to switch but to combat mismatches Brad needs to play a system that allows the guards to fight over the top of a screen and be able to recover, ie hedging.
There is a point where you accept the deficiencies of a player because their strengths outweigh them. Isaiah is a solid one on one defender but a limited team defender. However you accept that because he sets our offense alight.
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i laughed out loud when i saw that someone actually voted for him on the All defense team.
yeah, it's a fact:
http://official.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2017/06/2016-17-NBA-All-Defensive-Team-Votes.pdf (http://official.nba.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2017/06/2016-17-NBA-All-Defensive-Team-Votes.pdf)
Other players receiving votes, with point totals (First Team votes in parentheses): Avery Bradley,
Boston, 46 (12); Klay Thompson, Golden State, 45 (16); John Wall, Washington, 38 (14); DeAndre
Jordan, LA Clippers, 35 (1); Paul Millsap, Atlanta, 35; Hassan Whiteside, Miami, 25 (1); Marcus Smart,
Boston, 21 (5); Jimmy Butler, Chicago, 18; LeBron James, Cleveland, 12 (1); Robert Covington,
Philadelphia, 11 (2); Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City, 10 (5); Paul George, Indiana, 7; Kevin Durant,
Golden State, 6; Dwight Howard, Atlanta, 6 (1); Mike Conley, Memphis, 5 (1); Jae Crowder, Boston, 5;
Jrue Holiday, New Orleans, 5; Wesley Matthews, Dallas, 4 (2); Stephen Curry, Golden State, 3; Andre
Iguodala, Golden State, 3 (1); Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Charlotte, 3; Ricky Rubio, Minnesota, 3; P.J.
Tucker, Toronto, 3; Trevor Ariza, Houston, 2; Nicolas Batum, Charlotte, 2; Marc Gasol, Memphis, 2;
Eric Gordon, Houston, 2 (1); Karl-Anthony Towns, Minnesota, 2 (1); Steven Adams, Oklahoma City, 1;
LaMarcus Aldridge, San Antonio, 1; Al-Farouq Aminu, Portland, 1; Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Detroit,
1; George Hill, Utah, 1; Serge Ibaka, Toronto, 1; Damian Lillard, Portland, 1; Luc Mbah a Moute, LA
Clippers, 1; Austin Rivers, LA Clippers, 1; Isaiah Thomas, Boston, 1; Cody Zeller, Charlotte, 1.
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Stop this nonsense, this is basketball, you can't be 5"9 and not be horrible on defense, you just can't
What a load of crap. Muggsy Bogues was 5'3" and was nasty on D. While he may have not been the norm he proves you can be under 6 feet tall and a good defender.
Watching Center Court one night the guys were talking about him and Steve Smith said he and most other PG's would back up to him at the 3 pt line because they were worried about getting stripped. They said Penny Hardaway was one of the few guys that would come at him straight up because his handles were that good. I remember watching Bogues, he used his height as an advantage. Got under people, and was strong enough to handle big guys posting him up.
Thing with Thomas is that he does at times plays good D. Yes guys are going to shoot over him. But also have to look at that he's been the sole offense, if he has to sit for a long period of time it hurts the team. So he couldn't be as aggressive as he could be.
That being said, with Hayward being here, this will be a test to that,, he should be able to be more aggressive and contribute more, if he doesn't it's either he just doesn't have it, or he lacks the will to play hard aggressive D.
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Stop this nonsense, this is basketball, you can't be 5"9 and not be horrible on defense, you just can't
Just like you can't be 7' and not be great at defense, you just can't.
Oh wait.
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Stop this nonsense, this is basketball, you can't be 5"9 and not be horrible on defense, you just can't
What a load of crap. Muggsy Bogues was 5'3" and was nasty on D. While he may have not been the norm he proves you can be under 6 feet tall and a good defender.
Watching Center Court one night the guys were talking about him and Steve Smith said he and most other PG's would back up to him at the 3 pt line because they were worried about getting stripped. They said Penny Hardaway was one of the few guys that would come at him straight up because his handles were that good. I remember watching Bogues, he used his height as an advantage. Got under people, and was strong enough to handle big guys posting him up.
Thing with Thomas is that he does at times plays good D. Yes guys are going to shoot over him. But also have to look at that he's been the sole offense, if he has to sit for a long period of time it hurts the team. So he couldn't be as aggressive as he could be.
That being said, with Hayward being here, this will be a test to that,, he should be able to be more aggressive and contribute more, if he doesn't it's either he just doesn't have it, or he lacks the will to play hard aggressive D.
lol now I am going to have to google Mugsy Bogues NBA defense.
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Stop this nonsense, this is basketball, you can't be 5"9 and not be horrible on defense, you just can't
What a load of crap. Muggsy Bogues was 5'3" and was nasty on D. While he may have not been the norm he proves you can be under 6 feet tall and a good defender.
Watching Center Court one night the guys were talking about him and Steve Smith said he and most other PG's would back up to him at the 3 pt line because they were worried about getting stripped. They said Penny Hardaway was one of the few guys that would come at him straight up because his handles were that good. I remember watching Bogues, he used his height as an advantage. Got under people, and was strong enough to handle big guys posting him up.
Thing with Thomas is that he does at times plays good D. Yes guys are going to shoot over him. But also have to look at that he's been the sole offense, if he has to sit for a long period of time it hurts the team. So he couldn't be as aggressive as he could be.
That being said, with Hayward being here, this will be a test to that,, he should be able to be more aggressive and contribute more, if he doesn't it's either he just doesn't have it, or he lacks the will to play hard aggressive D.
I agree.. Nate Robinson and Phil Pressey were decent short defenders also
IT4 just seems lost on the defensive end at times
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His defense is every bit as bad as most people think. It's just part of the package.
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Muggsy Bogues was 5'3" and was nasty on D.
He was "nasty"?
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Stop this nonsense, this is basketball, you can't be 5"9 and not be horrible on defense, you just can't
It's good that he's not 5'9 then? (yes, that again :P).
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Sorry for the bad quality but this was a famous play back in the day:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/y%20Little%20Big%20Men%20n%20Giants/0%20Little%20Big%20Men/Tyrone%20Muggsy%20Bogues/3b72acfb-1.gif)
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I'm hoping the addition of Hayward takes some pressure off IT on the offensive end, and frees him up to exert more effort on D. I think that was a big part of the problem last year, namely that you couldn't ask him to carry the offensive load but also try and defend a top point guard on the other end. (Think John Wall in the playoffs, with Stevens just electing to "hide" IT on Otto Porter.)
Maybe this year with bigger 2-guards (Jaylen and Marcus) instead of Avery Bradley, and with IT saving some of his energy on O, you don't have to do this whole song and dance when it comes to defending speedy ball handlers. Just put IT on those guys and tell him he no longer has to save up his energy for offense.
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There are a ton more factors you are not considering. The Celtics give up a ton more open jumpers because of the way they have to defend to compensate for Thomas. Double teams to get the ball out of his man's hands cause problems elsewhere on the floor. He isn't keeping his man from shooting help defenders are and as a result leaving the rest of the defense scrambling and rotating to compensate.
I believe the Defensive Rating with lineups including him would account for that. Those defensive ratings are both good and bad. The problem is that there is no way to verify what you just said, or to verify that it is his fault. Some stats would indicate that some of those are as much Bradley's or Crowder's fault.
There is a pretty straightforward explanation of the team defensive numbers though, that shift the blame fairly clearly off of Thomas as an individual.
If you look at the defensive rating of lineups with all three of IT+AB+MS on the floor (i.e, "3-guard" lineups) they have a DRtg of about 116. In other words, truly, horrendous. In fact, this pattern holds true for all of our "3-guard" lineups (involving any three of IT, AB, MS & TR). Those lineups were just awful on defense.
The motivation for using those three-guard lineups was obvious in the case of the ones with IT: They had similar hefty offensive rating numbers. Unfortunately, the ones without IT had horrible offensive ratings.
3-guard lineups accounted for a very large percentage of IT's minutes on the floor last year:
IT+AB+MS : 418 minutes, 115.0 DRtg
IT+AB+TR : 30 minutes, 123.7 DRtg
IT+MS+TR : 118 minutes, 116.0 DRtg
That's a huge 566 minutes, a solid 20% of Thomas' minutes on the floor this year at a 115.7 DRtg.
In 1766 minutes of exclusive two-guard lineups (IT plus just one of AB, MS or TR), the DRtg was a much better 112.3.
In the 773 minutes that IT played just with Avery (no Smart, no Rozier) the team defensive rating was 109.1 That's a pretty hefty difference from the numbers up above.
The point of this is that, stats like DRPM were almost certainly being heavily swayed by the statistical weight of the Celtics' super-heavy use of 3-guard lineups last year. It's notable that Avery Bradley, who like IT had a huge share of his minutes in such configurations, also scored poorly in DRPM.
Here next is where there is likely reason for optimism going forward:
In the 247 minutes IT played _without_ any of Avery, Smart or Rozier -- i.e., primarily one-guard plus all wings & bigs (most of it with Brown, Crowder, Horford + Amir), the team defensive rating was 104.9 (while still maintaining a hefty 112.4 ORtg!!).
THAT latter number is probably closer to what we might expect with the new roster going forward, where we play IT more often with either 3-wings and a big or 2 wings and 2 bigs.
Danny has given Stevens the tools to play much bigger around Thomas this year. Hopefully he will take advantage of those tools.
Edit: Fixed quoting.
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Stop this nonsense, this is basketball, you can't be 5"9 and not be horrible on defense, you just can't
It's good that he's not 5'9 then? (yes, that again :P).
IT4 is 5'7 ;D
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His offense is worse than you think.
Maybe it evens out.
Give me one stat other than "five foot nine" that says he is not an Allstar.
He is averaging 21 and 6, one of only six players to do that this year.
On respectable 42%, 34%, and 86%. Numbers that could improve as the season goes (he has had a lot of missed open threes).
He is sixth among pgs in PER.
He is 23rd among pgs in TS%, but he was sixth and ninth the last two years, meaning that he should improve as the season goes. He is also still ahead of Conley, Teague, Holliday, Jackson, Jack, Wall, and Dragic in that area. There are only two players ahead of him in TS% that have a higher usage rate, meaning he is doing a respectable job with this TS% considering his usage rate. As the season goes, other guys get more comfortable and we make a move for another scorer, I expect his efficiency to rise.
He is 7th among point guards in estimate wins added among point guards.
He has the stats. He has the winning team. But he doesn't have the fan base support, and for that reason, he probably won't be an All-star.
His usage is pretty high. He's a borderline top 50 player right now. 42%/34% isn't anything to celebrate.
I'm not knocking him. He's our best offensive player. But I'd say his defense is about as underrated as his offense is overrated.
Umm... yes, his USG is very high. It was 34.0% last season. But that's what makes his incredible offensive _efficiency_ last year even more special.
Only 5 players in the history of the NBA have ever posted a TS% above 60% while also carrying both a USG above 30% and an AST% above 30%. And Thomas is the only one of those to do it while also having a super-stingy TOV% below 11%.
The other 4 players to do this were: Lebron (4 times), Curry (2x), Harden (2x) and Jordan.
It is extremely, extremely difficult to maintain elite scoring efficiency when a player's USG is that high. It is even more difficult when they also carry a huge ball-handling burden.
Hopefully, with Gordon Hayward added, Thomas won't have to carry quite so heavy a share of the offense, but there is also hope that his efficiency may actually go even higher because of that.
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I repeat: This thread is from 2 years ago.
The numbers and arguments are outdated.
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His offense is worse than you think.
Maybe it evens out.
Give me one stat other than "five foot nine" that says he is not an Allstar.
He is averaging 21 and 6, one of only six players to do that this year.
On respectable 42%, 34%, and 86%. Numbers that could improve as the season goes (he has had a lot of missed open threes).
He is sixth among pgs in PER.
He is 23rd among pgs in TS%, but he was sixth and ninth the last two years, meaning that he should improve as the season goes. He is also still ahead of Conley, Teague, Holliday, Jackson, Jack, Wall, and Dragic in that area. There are only two players ahead of him in TS% that have a higher usage rate, meaning he is doing a respectable job with this TS% considering his usage rate. As the season goes, other guys get more comfortable and we make a move for another scorer, I expect his efficiency to rise.
He is 7th among point guards in estimate wins added among point guards.
He has the stats. He has the winning team. But he doesn't have the fan base support, and for that reason, he probably won't be an All-star.
His usage is pretty high. He's a borderline top 50 player right now. 42%/34% isn't anything to celebrate.
He just brought up Thomas's TS%, which is a better indicator of efficiency than raw field goal percentages.
People LOVE bringing up that stat out of context. He's 97th in the league in TS%.
Are you trolling? You just threw THAT down without any context. You just included everybody and their drunk uncle who played in the NBA, even if they only took a couple of shots all season. You included a huge ton of guys with USG% rates in the single-digits.
The context in which to judge Thomas' TS% is that, among the 271 players who actually played enough to qualify for the leader boards, Thomas ranked 15th in TS%. And of the 14 guys ranked above him, the vast majority are bigs whose only scoring attempts consisted of dunks.
The context in which to judge Thomas' TS% is that, among players with high USG% and high AST% rates, his efficiency was truly elite.
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His offense is worse than you think.
Maybe it evens out.
Give me one stat other than "five foot nine" that says he is not an Allstar.
He is averaging 21 and 6, one of only six players to do that this year.
On respectable 42%, 34%, and 86%. Numbers that could improve as the season goes (he has had a lot of missed open threes).
He is sixth among pgs in PER.
He is 23rd among pgs in TS%, but he was sixth and ninth the last two years, meaning that he should improve as the season goes. He is also still ahead of Conley, Teague, Holliday, Jackson, Jack, Wall, and Dragic in that area. There are only two players ahead of him in TS% that have a higher usage rate, meaning he is doing a respectable job with this TS% considering his usage rate. As the season goes, other guys get more comfortable and we make a move for another scorer, I expect his efficiency to rise.
He is 7th among point guards in estimate wins added among point guards.
He has the stats. He has the winning team. But he doesn't have the fan base support, and for that reason, he probably won't be an All-star.
His usage is pretty high. He's a borderline top 50 player right now. 42%/34% isn't anything to celebrate.
He just brought up Thomas's TS%, which is a better indicator of efficiency than raw field goal percentages.
People LOVE bringing up that stat out of context. He's 97th in the league in TS%.
Are you trolling? You just threw THAT down without any context. You just included everybody and their drunk uncle who played in the NBA, even if they only took a couple of shots all season. You included a huge ton of guys with USG% rates in the single-digits.
The context in which to judge Thomas' TS% is that, among the 271 players who actually played enough to qualify for the leader boards, Thomas ranked 15th in TS%. And of the 14 guys ranked above him, the vast majority are bigs whose only scoring attempts consisted of dunks.
The context in which to judge Thomas' TS% is that, among players with high USG% and high AST% rates, his efficiency was truly elite.
Good points, keeping things in perspective. Note that his ts% was a point higher than Curry's.
His assist% was 32.5 and his turnover% an amazing 10.7 - at a usage rate of 34%! - his stellar shooting and scoring was only the beginning.
I'd hope that his usage goes down a bit, saving some of the wear and tear on his body, now that he's got some more support in shot-creation.
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I repeat: This thread is from 2 years ago.
The numbers and arguments are outdated.
Agh! My bad. I fell into the zombie-thread trap!
Oh well, the numbers I just posted are all current and maybe relevant.
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Stop this nonsense, this is basketball, you can't be 5"9 and not be horrible on defense, you just can't
It's good that he's not 5'9 then? (yes, that again :P).
IT4 is 5'7 ;D
Yup, but this year we're getting the upgraded and growth-spurted IT5 version, so he'll be 5'8 :P
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Sorry for the bad quality but this was a famous play back in the day:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/y%20Little%20Big%20Men%20n%20Giants/0%20Little%20Big%20Men/Tyrone%20Muggsy%20Bogues/3b72acfb-1.gif)
That's great lol. I can remember that he hustled, but he had to have been a net liability on defense.
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There are a ton more factors you are not considering. The Celtics give up a ton more open jumpers because of the way they have to defend to compensate for Thomas. Double teams to get the ball out of his man's hands cause problems elsewhere on the floor. He isn't keeping his man from shooting help defenders are and as a result leaving the rest of the defense scrambling and rotating to compensate.
I believe the Defensive Rating with lineups including him would account for that. Those defensive ratings are both good and bad. The problem is that there is no way to verify what you just said, or to verify that it is his fault. Some stats would indicate that some of those are as much Bradley's or Crowder's fault.
In the 247 minutes IT played _without_ any of Avery, Smart or Rozier -- i.e., primarily one-guard plus all wings & bigs (most of it with Brown, Crowder, Horford + Amir), the team defensive rating was 104.9 (while still maintaining a hefty 112.4 ORtg!!).
THAT latter number is probably closer to what we might expect with the new roster going forward, where we play IT more often with either 3-wings and a big or 2 wings and 2 bigs.
Danny has given Stevens the tools to play much bigger around Thomas this year. Hopefully he will take advantage of those tools.
Edit: Fixed quoting.
Yes i expecting CBS to run ALOT 3 wing linup to cover IT's size, that's one reason i am support of AB trade, now my only concern is IT's Hip and JC's attitude
If he is healthy he can be horrible on defense and still score more point than he lose so i am fine with it
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Yes i expecting CBS to run ALOT 3 wing linup to cover IT's size, that's one reason i am support of AB trade, now my only concern is IT's Hip and JC's attitude
How are the "three wings" going to compensate for IT's size, is he going to sit on someone's shoulders? :P
You don't need three wings, you need an off guard who can defend PGs so that Thomas can be moved to the spot-up shooter.
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Yes i expecting CBS to run ALOT 3 wing linup to cover IT's size, that's one reason i am support of AB trade, now my only concern is IT's Hip and JC's attitude
How are the "three wings" going to compensate for IT's size, is he going to sit on someone's shoulders? :P
You don't need three wings, you need an off guard who can defend PGs so that Thomas can be moved to the spot-up shooter.
no it isn't only PG he will need to defend, they will switch anyway and there are mismatchs from 1 to 5
just let IT or the quick wing handle the (star)PG, if he is gonna score so be it because IT and the Wing is going to mismatch them even more the other end
as for the standing on the shoulder i think they should at least try it :angel:
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Yes i expecting CBS to run ALOT 3 wing linup to cover IT's size, that's one reason i am support of AB trade, now my only concern is IT's Hip and JC's attitude
How are the "three wings" going to compensate for IT's size, is he going to sit on someone's shoulders? :P
You don't need three wings, you need an off guard who can defend PGs so that Thomas can be moved to the spot-up shooter.
no it isn't only PG he will need to defend, they will switch anyway and there are mismatchs from 1 to 5
just let IT or the quick wing handle the (star)PG, if he is gonna score so be it because IT and the Wing is going to mismatch them even more the other end
as for the standing on the shoulder i think they should at least try it :angel:
Your "quick wing" is Crowder. He isn't handling any guards, let alone star PGs. That's why having Bradley was important.
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Yes i expecting CBS to run ALOT 3 wing linup to cover IT's size, that's one reason i am support of AB trade, now my only concern is IT's Hip and JC's attitude
How are the "three wings" going to compensate for IT's size, is he going to sit on someone's shoulders? :P
You don't need three wings, you need an off guard who can defend PGs so that Thomas can be moved to the spot-up shooter.
no it isn't only PG he will need to defend, they will switch anyway and there are mismatchs from 1 to 5
just let IT or the quick wing handle the (star)PG, if he is gonna score so be it because IT and the Wing is going to mismatch them even more the other end
as for the standing on the shoulder i think they should at least try it :angel:
Your "quick wing" is Crowder. He isn't handling any guards, let alone star PGs. That's why having Bradley was important.
All this new position terminology has caused a lot of confusion, it seems, though the term "wing" has meant both 2's and 3's for a long time now.
First of all, about Crowder: he has the speed to cover most "shooting guards" - and has his whole career. For the last couple of seasons, Stevens has taken advantage of his strength to play him at swing in small lineups to get his man out of the paint; but he's a versatile defender who can guard 2-4.
Incidentally, I believe that the concern about Jae's "attitude" is a myth.
But surely he moves to the bench now, where his versatility and super-efficient usage will give bench units more flexibility.
Brown logged some minutes guarding 1-4 this past season and looks to be the real successor to Bradley, albeit with more height and length, and 40 pounds added.
I think the starters are:
Horford
Morris
Hayward
Brown
Thomas
6 Smart
7 Crowder
8 Baynes
I believe that that makes Tatum 9 and leads to a minutes crunch, especially when he gets his footing and earns his way into the rotation. Stevens has been in Popovich territory for managing minutes, but the roster is loaded with guys who deserve floor time.
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Yes i expecting CBS to run ALOT 3 wing linup to cover IT's size, that's one reason i am support of AB trade, now my only concern is IT's Hip and JC's attitude
How are the "three wings" going to compensate for IT's size, is he going to sit on someone's shoulders? :P
You don't need three wings, you need an off guard who can defend PGs so that Thomas can be moved to the spot-up shooter.
no it isn't only PG he will need to defend, they will switch anyway and there are mismatchs from 1 to 5
just let IT or the quick wing handle the (star)PG, if he is gonna score so be it because IT and the Wing is going to mismatch them even more the other end
as for the standing on the shoulder i think they should at least try it :angel:
Your "quick wing" is Crowder. He isn't handling any guards, let alone star PGs. That's why having Bradley was important.
It's Brown/Hayward
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First of all, about Crowder: he has the speed to cover most "shooting guards" - and has his whole career. For the last couple of seasons, Stevens has taken advantage of his strength to play him at swing in small lineups to get his man out of the paint; but he's a versatile defender who can guard 2-4.
I don't know where you're getting this notion, but it has no basis in reality. When Jae Crowder was traded to the Celtics, he came with the question, "Is he really just an undersized PF who has no NBA position" attached to his back.
His player file at 82games.com very clearly demonstrates this: he split time between SF and PF in his rookie year, then played mostly SF as a sophomore. It was pretty much more of the same with the Celtics.
http://www.82games.com/1213/12DAL15.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1314/13DAL9.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1516/15BOS8.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16BOS9.HTM
Jae Crowder is not a SG. Never was, never will be.
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Your "quick wing" is Crowder. He isn't handling any guards, let alone star PGs. That's why having Bradley was important.
It's Brown/Hayward
At least one of these two must and will play SG. And unfortunately, I'm afraid they might go with the idea that Hayward is their starting SG which may bomb spectacularly on defense. Of the lot that will split time at SG/SF, I'm only confident in Brown's ability to stay with scoring PGs... and unfortunately he's also the least experienced of the three...
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Your "quick wing" is Crowder. He isn't handling any guards, let alone star PGs. That's why having Bradley was important.
It's Brown/Hayward
At least one of these two must and will play SG. And unfortunately, I'm afraid they might go with the idea that Hayward is their starting SG which may bomb spectacularly on defense. Of the lot that will split time at SG/SF, I'm only confident in Brown's ability to stay with scoring PGs... and unfortunately he's also the least experienced of the three...
well you can't be perfect, i will take that
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First of all, about Crowder: he has the speed to cover most "shooting guards" - and has his whole career. For the last couple of seasons, Stevens has taken advantage of his strength to play him at swing in small lineups to get his man out of the paint; but he's a versatile defender who can guard 2-4.
He doesn't even have the speed to guard LeBron James let alone guards. This last series he really did not contain him or slow him down. Now I know few do, but folks actually thought Crowder could.
IT will always be a defensive liability to some extent. Stevens would sub him out at times on offense defense in the past. You do not do that to guys who can defend. He can be posted up and he does not have the length to affect everyone's shot. He plays with incredible heart and is a joy to watch, I am a fan of his play. Even so I question whether he is a playoff basketball player sometimes.
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First of all, about Crowder: he has the speed to cover most "shooting guards" - and has his whole career. For the last couple of seasons, Stevens has taken advantage of his strength to play him at swing in small lineups to get his man out of the paint; but he's a versatile defender who can guard 2-4.
He doesn't even have the speed to guard LeBron James let alone guards. This last series he really did not contain him or slow him down. Now I know few do, but folks actually thought Crowder could.
IT will always be a defensive liability to some extent. Stevens would sub him out at times on offense defense in the past. You do not do that to guys who can defend. He can be posted up and he does not have the length to affect everyone's shot. He plays with incredible heart and is a joy to watch, I am a fan of his play. Even so I question whether he is a playoff basketball player sometimes.
LeBron is faster than most twos. Not sure that proves your point.
I like how we have Crowder, Morris, Hayward, and Brown to throw at him now. Someone will slow him down.
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First of all, about Crowder: he has the speed to cover most "shooting guards" - and has his whole career. For the last couple of seasons, Stevens has taken advantage of his strength to play him at swing in small lineups to get his man out of the paint; but he's a versatile defender who can guard 2-4.
He doesn't even have the speed to guard LeBron James let alone guards. This last series he really did not contain him or slow him down. Now I know few do, but folks actually thought Crowder could.
IT will always be a defensive liability to some extent. Stevens would sub him out at times on offense defense in the past. You do not do that to guys who can defend. He can be posted up and he does not have the length to affect everyone's shot. He plays with incredible heart and is a joy to watch, I am a fan of his play. Even so I question whether he is a playoff basketball player sometimes.
LeBron is faster than most twos. Not sure that proves your point.
I like how we have Crowder, Morris, Hayward, and Brown to throw at him now. Someone will slow him down.
I think the key is that he will have to try on defense this year.
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i fear he is actually worse than I think.
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IT is bad on D, but I'd rather have a very bad defensive PG than a sort-of-bad defensive center. I can't name a starting PG who is worse on D than IT, but many wings and bigs have a more detrimental effect on their team's defensive scheme. The C's are stocked with heads-up defensive players who can make clean rotations, which substantially mitigates IT's deficiencies.
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I think the key is that he will have to try on defense this year.
Don't get me wrong, I hope he succeeds. I just have my doubts.
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First of all, about Crowder: he has the speed to cover most "shooting guards" - and has his whole career. For the last couple of seasons, Stevens has taken advantage of his strength to play him at swing in small lineups to get his man out of the paint; but he's a versatile defender who can guard 2-4.
I don't know where you're getting this notion, but it has no basis in reality. When Jae Crowder was traded to the Celtics, he came with the question, "Is he really just an undersized PF who has no NBA position" attached to his back.
His player file at 82games.com very clearly demonstrates this: he split time between SF and PF in his rookie year, then played mostly SF as a sophomore. It was pretty much more of the same with the Celtics.
http://www.82games.com/1213/12DAL15.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1314/13DAL9.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1516/15BOS8.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1617/16BOS9.HTM
Jae Crowder is not a SG. Never was, never will be.
He might not "be" a shooting guard (I didn't say he was) - but he guards them, frequently. Those data from 82games are great and valuable, but they don't answer this question.
Yes, Brad put him on Carmelo, Iguodala, and Hayward; but he also put him on McCaw and Hood, even on Tyler Johnson, and most prominently Harden (shared duty with brother Marcus to give Harden "different looks", as the old expression goes), and Jimmy Butler.
Crowder is a wing. He's had a prominent role as a "small ball 4", to use the old term, but he's less effective guarding larger players - so that role will likely diminish this season.
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First of all, about Crowder: he has the speed to cover most "shooting guards" - and has his whole career. For the last couple of seasons, Stevens has taken advantage of his strength to play him at swing in small lineups to get his man out of the paint; but he's a versatile defender who can guard 2-4.
He doesn't even have the speed to guard LeBron James let alone guards. This last series he really did not contain him or slow him down. Now I know few do, but folks actually thought Crowder could.
IT will always be a defensive liability to some extent. Stevens would sub him out at times on offense defense in the past. You do not do that to guys who can defend. He can be posted up and he does not have the length to affect everyone's shot. He plays with incredible heart and is a joy to watch, I am a fan of his play. Even so I question whether he is a playoff basketball player sometimes.
LeBron is faster than most twos. Not sure that proves your point.
I like how we have Crowder, Morris, Hayward, and Brown to throw at him now. Someone will slow him down.
It might be premature to say so, but Semi is a good bet to be the Celtics' best LeBron defender.
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He might not "be" a shooting guard (I didn't say he was) - but he guards them, frequently. Those data from 82games are great and valuable, but they don't answer this question.
Not sure what you define as "with regularity". I've never seen him matched up with SG except during some oddball switch. I'm guessing you're referring to fairly short stretches of time. But then again, we've had Rondo on LeBron for shorts stretches of time. I still maintain Crowder can't be counted on to play and/or guard SGs with regularity.
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Crowder is very capable of defending all but the quickest shooting guards in the NBA. No, it's not ideal, but he moves his feet well, and will have a size advantage most nights. Hayward can then defend the small forward.
The best defensive team the C's will put on the floor, while still using IT at the point, involves Smart at the SG position. And yes at times he will struggle to score, but with Hayward and IT also on the floor, he'll be left to do what he does best, facilitate, agitate, and defend.
Anytime IT is on the floor the opposition has a path to score, you hope he plays well enough on the other end to off set it.
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Crowder is very capable of defending all but the quickest shooting guards in the NBA. No, it's not ideal, but he moves his feet well, and will have a size advantage most nights. Hayward can then defend the small forward.
I've seen him beaten off the dribble more times than I could count last season. Also, he's 6'6 in shoes, so his size advantage would not be all that great -- except against the 6'3 breed of SGs that will run circles around him.
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IT has been subbed out on defense by coach Stevens at the end of games with regularity since he arrived in Boston. This is all you need to know.
IT won a bunch of games last year for the Celtics because he is one of the best offensive players in the league.
Why is it a problem that IT has a weakness?
He is such an effective player on offense that Stevens adjusts the entire team on both ends of the court to make it work. We watched the "Boston IT Celtics" all year last year. The guy is the team. Just what the he*& else do you want?
You want to blow out a cray supercomputer full of NBA stats trying to make his weakness into a strength?
The coach substitutes for him on defense at the end of games. Having Smart or Brown take your place at the end of a game on defense only is nothing to be ashamed of.
Red Auerbach smoked too much.
Havlicek never started games.
KC Jones averaged 7.8 ppg
Perkins couldn't hit a shot.
Tommy is the worst homer to have ever lived.
The guys above had weaknesses and more than 45 rings between them.
Thomas' play speaks for itself.
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He might not "be" a shooting guard (I didn't say he was) - but he guards them, frequently. Those data from 82games are great and valuable, but they don't answer this question.
Not sure what you define as "with regularity". I've never seen him matched up with SG except during some oddball switch. I'm guessing you're referring to fairly short stretches of time. But then again, we've had Rondo on LeBron for shorts stretches of time. I still maintain Crowder can't be counted on to play and/or guard SGs with regularity.
I gave you six or seven examples. Those were not on switches.
"Shooting Guard" - what a quaint term in today's world. But long before we were hearing about Swings or whatever, it was common practice to have two interchangeable wings. Crowder takes the biggest scoring threat - like Harden or Butler or Hayward - or a wing facilitator like Iguodala or Tyler Johnson. He's the Celtics' Wing Stopper. Some of those might be described as "shooting guards", like Butler or Harden, and others might be described as "small forwards"; many teams nowadays play interchangeable wings (like Chicago and Utah last season).
Not sure what you define as "with regularity".
I'll nitpick a little bit here. I said "frequently", not "with regularity". Both terms are not precise, but I would not have said "with regularity". Perhaps you take them to mean the same thing.
Crowder is very capable of defending all but the quickest shooting guards in the NBA. No, it's not ideal, but he moves his feet well, and will have a size advantage most nights. Hayward can then defend the small forward.
I've seen him beaten off the dribble more times than I could count last season. Also, he's 6'6 in shoes, so his size advantage would not be all that great -- except against the 6'3 breed of SGs that will run circles around him.
His size advantage is that he's 235 with a firm base and strong lower body. He also has long quick arms that he uses to get deflections - but now we're getting into his team defense, which is excellent.
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Crowder is very capable of defending all but the quickest shooting guards in the NBA. No, it's not ideal, but he moves his feet well, and will have a size advantage most nights. Hayward can then defend the small forward.
I've seen him beaten off the dribble more times than I could count last season. Also, he's 6'6 in shoes, so his size advantage would not be all that great -- except against the 6'3 breed of SGs that will run circles around him.
His size advantage is that he's 235 with a firm base and strong lower body. He also has long quick arms that he uses to get deflections - but now we're getting into his team defense, which is excellent.
Right, but that doesn't change the fact that he gets beat off the dribble. I don't consider the matador swipe-from-behind, Rajon Rondo style, to be great defense. And I don't think being 235 lbs is an asset against quicker, shorter players -- just the opposite.
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Crowder is very capable of defending all but the quickest shooting guards in the NBA. No, it's not ideal, but he moves his feet well, and will have a size advantage most nights. Hayward can then defend the small forward.
I've seen him beaten off the dribble more times than I could count last season. Also, he's 6'6 in shoes, so his size advantage would not be all that great -- except against the 6'3 breed of SGs that will run circles around him.
His size advantage is that he's 235 with a firm base and strong lower body. He also has long quick arms that he uses to get deflections - but now we're getting into his team defense, which is excellent.
Right, but that doesn't change the fact that he gets beat off the dribble. I don't consider the matador swipe-from-behind, Rajon Rondo style, to be great defense. And I don't think being 235 lbs is an asset against quicker, shorter players -- just the opposite.
There's a new reality now, and it will be interesting to see what players he gets put on this year. We can check back in... June?
I'm betting that he moves to the bench, as he's not suited to a steady diet of swing.
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There's a new reality now, and it will be interesting to see what players he gets put on this year. We can check back in... June?
I'm betting that he moves to the bench, as he's not suited to a steady diet of swing.
Sure. I think our best lineup is with him on the bench, and Brown starting at the 2. Regretfully, I think we might try to start Crowder and move Hayward to the 2. We'll see.
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There's a new reality now, and it will be interesting to see what players he gets put on this year. We can check back in... June?
I'm betting that he moves to the bench, as he's not suited to a steady diet of swing.
Sure. I think our best lineup is with him on the bench, and Brown starting at the 2. Regretfully, I think we might try to start Crowder and move Hayward to the 2. We'll see.
I agree about Brown starting - and I think that he will.