CelticsStrong
Other Discussions => Other / General Sports => Red Sox / MLB => Topic started by: Tr1boy on August 22, 2015, 03:47:59 PM
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Pitching looks promising with
Rodriguez
Owens
Wright
Tazawa as closer
Lineup looks promising with
Betts
Castillo
Bradley Jjr.
Bogaertz
Swihart
Panda
Holt
Shaw
Rutledge
If redsox can trade ramirez and porcello for more pitching, even better.
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They have some quality pieces. They also have 2 guys under contract for big $$ the next 4-5 years who should both be playing DH. To make matters worse, Ortiz will probably play DH full-time for at least another season.
They have some decent young pitchers, but none of them looks like a top of the rotation guy. They have a lot of OK arms, but none of them especially reliable or at all dominant.
It's not a bad place to be. Betts, Bogaerts, Swihart, Rodriguez, Owens, maybe Shaw. Those are some young, cost-controlled, talented, and likely productive players. Dombrowski has his work cut out for him though.
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Open the vault for David Price.
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Open the vault for David Price.
Teammates with Papi? Doubtful.
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Just wondering, who thinks Shaw is legit? I've been trying to keep my expectations low, but he just looks so [dang] good to me.
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Open the vault for David Price.
Teammates with Papi? Doubtful.
Good point. These guys teammate up with opponents all the time though. The team officials and coaches can smooth it out. They should be able to move past it. $200 million and 7 years is my opening offer. They need an ace. The rest of the rotation will fall in place after him.
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They have some quality pieces. They also have 2 guys under contract for big $$ the next 4-5 years who should both be playing DH. To make matters worse, Ortiz will probably play DH full-time for at least another season.
They have some decent young pitchers, but none of them looks like a top of the rotation guy. They have a lot of OK arms, but none of them especially reliable or at all dominant.
It's not a bad place to be. Betts, Bogaerts, Swihart, Rodriguez, Owens, maybe Shaw. Those are some young, cost-controlled, talented, and likely productive players. Dombrowski has his work cut out for him though.
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Erod and Owens are elite level pitching prospects. Wright a solid number 3 guy
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Just wondering, who thinks Shaw is legit? I've been trying to keep my expectations low, but he just looks so [dang] good to me.
Shaw reminds me of Mark Bellhorn. He will strike out or make solid contact. Dont mind seeing what else he can.
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Open the vault for David Price.
Jays apparently will lock him up
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Open the vault for David Price.
Jays apparently will lock him up
Maybe so, but if I'm Dave Dimbrowski, I'm not letting Toronto outbid me. The Red Sox have much more money. Throw it at Price.
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They have some quality pieces. They also have 2 guys under contract for big $$ the next 4-5 years who should both be playing DH. To make matters worse, Ortiz will probably play DH full-time for at least another season.
They have some decent young pitchers, but none of them looks like a top of the rotation guy. They have a lot of OK arms, but none of them especially reliable or at all dominant.
It's not a bad place to be. Betts, Bogaerts, Swihart, Rodriguez, Owens, maybe Shaw. Those are some young, cost-controlled, talented, and likely productive players. Dombrowski has his work cut out for him though.
if Ortiz can continue to hit RH pitching AND be willing to platoon against LHers, then i dont see how this is a negative. his slash line against RHers is .280/.395/.567 with an OPS of 962. 20 out of his 26 HRs are against RHers. This is a very,very good line.
next, on the pitchers, i agree with you, but it is nice to have rotation slots 3-5 filled with quality as good as this. the rub, as you imply, is slots 1 & 2. without addressing this, the team is in trouble.
but let's see whether dombrowski et al can finally solve the bull pen woes of the sox. the bull pen has been terrible season long and uehara cant be counted on in the long run. the bull pen has coughed up too many leads. remember the last time the sox were ahead by 3+ runs and you felt secure? neither do i.
as far as everyday players, they are VERY strong up the middle and if JBJ breaks out as a hitter and is consistent, he is automatically an all star....IF, IF, IF!
the interesting sss player to watch is shaw, who hails from kent state, my old employer. ;D no one thinks he can continue to bat .370 and slug .681. his MiLB pedigree argues against this. but if he can hit well on the road and not turn into a pumpkin, he will be at least good depth. heck, he MIGHT be an everyday major leaguer, but way to early to tell.
mookie, JBJ, castillo, xander, swihart, vasquez all look to be major leaguers, and good ones. i dont see anyone there with great power, but there is speed, OBP, and defense.
needed are:
- a pair of good/great starters
- corner outfield with power, or hanley becoming old hanley
- a corner infielder, or sandoval becoming old sandoval
- and 2-3 relievers
this is a LOT to ask for, but not impossible. they have cheap, good core of young players. so we shall see what dombrowski does with it all.
oh, and just to look really far down the pike, moncada, devers, and margot will be knocking on the door in 2-3 years. should be fun.
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Open the vault for David Price.
Jays apparently will lock him up
Maybe so, but if I'm Dave Dimbrowski, I'm not letting Toronto outbid me. The Red Sox have much more money. Throw it at Price.
i wish it were so simple. in recent memory TWICE the red sox have tried to solve their problems by having dump trucks pull up and unload large piles of money in front of players. it did not.
remember, crawford, gonzalez? and how are sandoval and ramirez working out these days? gagne ring a bell? unlike basketball, one player rarely makes a big difference.
look, even with price, he only gets to be a star every 5th game. he would start at best TWENTY PERCENT of the total number of games. how many would he win for the sox? he has won OVER 15 games only twice in his career.
more is needed than price.
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Open the vault for David Price.
Jays apparently will lock him up
Maybe so, but if I'm Dave Dimbrowski, I'm not letting Toronto outbid me. The Red Sox have much more money. Throw it at Price.
i wish it were so simple. in recent memory TWICE the red sox have tried to solve their problems by having dump trucks pull up and unload large piles of money in front of players. it did not.
remember, crawford, gonzalez? and how are sandoval and ramirez working out these days? gagne ring a bell? unlike basketball, one player rarely makes a big difference.
look, even with price, he only gets to be a star every 5th game. he would start at best TWENTY PERCENT of the total number of games. how many would he win for the sox? he has won OVER 15 games only twice in his career.
more is needed than price.
Sure, but they have young talent. Great time to splurge on an ace. They got too cute last year by signing mediocre veteran pitchers. 20% regular season, but much higher in the playoffs. ERod, Owens, Porcello, amd Miley will fit in well behind him. Move HRam to first, a veteran SS should have no problem with that move ;D. JBJ, Betts, and Castillo in the outfield, very exciting, amazing defense. This all works out :). Just need to sign a couple of relievers.
Honestly, I suspect Dombrowski will pull off huge moves that none of us could see coming.
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Open the vault for David Price.
Jays apparently will lock him up
Maybe so, but if I'm Dave Dimbrowski, I'm not letting Toronto outbid me. The Red Sox have much more money. Throw it at Price.
i wish it were so simple. in recent memory TWICE the red sox have tried to solve their problems by having dump trucks pull up and unload large piles of money in front of players. it did not.
remember, crawford, gonzalez? and how are sandoval and ramirez working out these days? gagne ring a bell? unlike basketball, one player rarely makes a big difference.
look, even with price, he only gets to be a star every 5th game. he would start at best TWENTY PERCENT of the total number of games. how many would he win for the sox? he has won OVER 15 games only twice in his career.
more is needed than price.
Sure, but they have young talent. Great time to splurge on an ace. They got too cute last year by signing mediocre veteran pitchers. 20% regular season, but much higher in the playoffs. ERod, Owens, Porcello, amd Miley will fit in well behind him. Move HRam to first, a veteran SS should have no problem with that move ;D. JBJ, Betts, and Castillo in the outfield, very exciting, amazing defense. This all works out :). Just need to sign a couple of relievers.
Honestly, I suspect Dombrowski will pull off huge moves that none of us could see coming.
Ramirez is done as a fielder. Such a poor fielder and has put on so much mass does not look athletic enough to handle the ss spot
Trade ramirez. Or dont resign Ortiz and give the dh job to ramirez
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Open the vault for David Price.
Jays apparently will lock him up
Maybe so, but if I'm Dave Dimbrowski, I'm not letting Toronto outbid me. The Red Sox have much more money. Throw it at Price.
i wish it were so simple. in recent memory TWICE the red sox have tried to solve their problems by having dump trucks pull up and unload large piles of money in front of players. it did not.
remember, crawford, gonzalez? and how are sandoval and ramirez working out these days? gagne ring a bell? unlike basketball, one player rarely makes a big difference.
look, even with price, he only gets to be a star every 5th game. he would start at best TWENTY PERCENT of the total number of games. how many would he win for the sox? he has won OVER 15 games only twice in his career.
more is needed than price.
Sure, but they have young talent. Great time to splurge on an ace. They got too cute last year by signing mediocre veteran pitchers. 20% regular season, but much higher in the playoffs. ERod, Owens, Porcello, amd Miley will fit in well behind him. Move HRam to first, a veteran SS should have no problem with that move ;D. JBJ, Betts, and Castillo in the outfield, very exciting, amazing defense. This all works out :). Just need to sign a couple of relievers.
Honestly, I suspect Dombrowski will pull off huge moves that none of us could see coming.
Ramirez is done as a fielder. Such a poor fielder and has put on so much mass does not look athletic enough to handle the ss spot
Trade ramirez. Or dont resign Ortiz and give the dh job to ramirez
Ortiz will be back. He's actually been very good this year. 23rd best OPS right now. Ideally, you trade Ramirez, but who takes him? It's conceivable he could play first. He is horrendous in the outfield, but he might be able to play first. They have to find out.
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if Ortiz can continue to hit RH pitching AND be willing to platoon against LHers, then i dont see how this is a negative.
It's a negative because Hanley sucks at everything other than hitting, and Sandoval isn't much better. Trying to carry 3 DHs on the roster is a real drag.
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Erod and Owens are elite level pitching prospects. Wright a solid number 3 guy
Eh, I've read that Owens is more of a 3-4 guy, maybe a 2 at best. E-Rod has some good stuff, but also has shown that he is fairly combustible. He's no Pedro.
If E-Rod and Owens are the 3 and 4 in the rotation, that's not a bad place to be. But what are they doing with Buccholz? And then there's Porcello and Miley who need a spot. Are they going to keep trying Kelly as a starter?
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I think they should really consider moving Hanley to first. He played short for most his career and he should be much better defensively there, as most of his problems have been gauging fly balls from the outfield.
That would free up OF positions for Betts, Castillo, and potentially JBJ if he continues to do well. That'd be the defensive outfield in baseball.
As for Sandoval, I hated the signing from the beginning. He was never even an elite hitter as Hanley was. I also hate that baseball is so accepting of players being fat and out of shape. That would never happen in basketball. He needs to lose weight. He is making millions and there's no excuse for him not being in premium shape.
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Honestly I'd just look to dump one of them and put the other in a time share at DH with Ortiz moving forward.
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Honestly I'd just look to dump one of them and put the other in a time share at DH with Ortiz moving forward.
I'd at least try Hanley at first. It should be a much easier position to play. And Papi is actually starting to play like he always has, so I think we can still get production out of them.
As for Sandoval, I hold out hope he can at least be a decent third baseman, even if he never lives up to his contract. And that's better than paying essentially all of his salary to have him play for someone else.
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Honestly I'd just look to dump one of them and put the other in a time share at DH with Ortiz moving forward.
I'd at least try Hanley at first. It should be a much easier position to play. And Papi is actually starting to play like he always has, so I think we can still get production out of them.
As for Sandoval, I hold out hope he can at least be a decent third baseman, even if he never lives up to his contract. And that's better than paying essentially all of his salary to have him play for someone else.
It just seems to me that signing these guys was a classic case of looking at only one part of the equation and forgetting the other parts.
Hanley and Sandoval can hit, sure. But Hanley seems to set a terrible example for the other players and in general probably isn't very good for your team chemistry-wise. Trying to fit him anywhere on the field is a major drag on the team defense. The latter really hurts, especially when you're trying to build a rotation that's based on getting outs via grounders and fly balls.
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if Ortiz can continue to hit RH pitching AND be willing to platoon against LHers, then i dont see how this is a negative.
It's a negative because Hanley sucks at everything other than hitting, and Sandoval isn't much better. Trying to carry 3 DHs on the roster is a real drag.
First, not ortiz' fault is it?
Next, why single out ortiz who is clearly the best hitter of the three this year and could very well be next year as well, and for less money? Ortiz is an asset hitting, in the club house, and to please fans.
If there is a surplus of DH you trade from depth. That is a key strategy behind the red sox developing the farm system they have. But then cherington decided to hoard prospects past their Expiration date. I believe this may be one of the reasons ownership pushed cherington out the door.
As you point out Hanley and Sandoval generally under perform on defense, Hanley to the point of embarrassment. But, unloading them now will be selling low after buying high. The farm system might provide players to subsidize their exits, but the sox will pay heavily one way or another.
But do you really want either of them long term at this point, Hanley in particular. Ortiz is gone in one, two years max. That is a plus since the sox won't be paying for 2 to 3 years of decline and suckatude, as they may be with H and S.
Last point, I prefer the clubhouse presence of Ortiz to that of either Hanley or Sandoval. Especially with the youth corps they now have.
Unloading Ortiz doesn't solve the problems of the sox.
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Honestly I'd just look to dump one of them and put the other in a time share at DH with Ortiz moving forward.
I'd at least try Hanley at first. It should be a much easier position to play. And Papi is actually starting to play like he always has, so I think we can still get production out of them.
As for Sandoval, I hold out hope he can at least be a decent third baseman, even if he never lives up to his contract. And that's better than paying essentially all of his salary to have him play for someone else.
It just seems to me that signing these guys was a classic case of looking at only one part of the equation and forgetting the other parts.
Hanley and Sandoval can hit, sure. But Hanley seems to set a terrible example for the other players and in general probably isn't very good for your team chemistry-wise. Trying to fit him anywhere on the field is a major drag on the team defense. The latter really hurts, especially when you're trying to build a rotation that's based on getting outs via grounders and fly balls.
i am in agreement on the general assessment of the individual defense shown by hanley - sucky to say the least. but it does not follow, as stated, that it hurts a ground ball pitching staff.
first, last time i checked outfielders did not make plays on ground balls in the infield. that is, whether a pitcher is a ground ball pitcher or not, having a great fabulous left fielder or a ****ty left fielder will not matter on ground balls. ground balls are the domain of the infield and by the time a grounder makes it way to the LF the batter will beat ANY throw to first. ;D
xander and sandoval are more important than hanley in this regard. sandoval has been a mighty disappointment on many fronts, but not terrible on defense. xander has over all been better than many expected, actually around league average i think.
the problem with the pitching staff has not been whether or not they have a high percentage of ground balls. the problem has been they are simply pitching poorly, at least early in the year. Look at BABIP, k & bb percentages, line drive %, swings and misses, WHIP, whatever and you can see a general inability to pitch well consistently. in general and as a group, their fast balls are not as fast or not as accurate. their breaking pitches are mediocre and getting hammered or walking people. it only takes a few percentage points to shift the edge from pitcher to batter.
third, back to hanley's defense. he is simply not suited for the outfield and has real difficulty tracking fly balls. the skills of a ss are quite different than those of an outfielder. as a ss hanley was poor, but that was because he had crappy, jeter-esque range or would be lazy. his glove was generally fine, as was his arm. the idea of having him play a short LF in fenway with that arm seemed reasonable at the time.
but watch hanley play left field and you will see he plays it the opposite what manny used to do. manny would play shallow and actually make good plays on short fly balls/bloopers. anything over his head he would concede and simply play it off the wall.
hanley plays deep, as if he is afraid of making a mistake on the ball. lots of bloopers drop in and he doesnt charge them, apparently (and this is a guess) he is afraid of making a mistake. or he feels more comfortable with the play in front of him, as with a ss. in any case, he isnt confident at all.
the trouble with playing deep for hanley is that he is god awful at tracking fly balls, so even when the ball is deep he cant get a read on it. and he cant figure out how to play the wall.
of course, a good deal of his amateurish fielding is because he refuses to take fielding practice, citing possible injury. ::) so the only time he gets to "practice" fielding is in real, life games. a clear recipe for poor fielding to be sure.
so, maybe a move to first would be better. or maybe not. 1b has a LOT more chances for error and the errors are generally more impactful. on the other hand, having poor range for hanley wont be as bad at 1b as it is at ss. but he would be learning his second position in two years and he already said he doesnt want to play 1b. that is, he prefers OF to 1b and he seemingly has no confidence in his ability to play LF. color me dubious.
quite the dilemma for the sox. people here say trade hanely. fine, but how do you trade a DH who makes around $20,000,000? unless the sox eat a hefty chunk of the salary (at least $10,000,000), or staple multiple young players to his back, no one else will take him.
a few final points in this post in this interesting thread, rodriquez is probably a very good #3 pitcher as a career, with some years as #2. not bad at all. but at slots #4 and #5 the sox will field pitchers with above average WAR (or fWAR, your choice.) that is, rodriquez should at least hold his own and probably be above opponent average and so will the #4 & 5 pitchers. meaning the sox can win these matchups regularly with their # 3 through #5.
the trick now is to get a pair of very good starters for slots #1 and 2 (buchholz' health worries me. he cant be counted upon long term it seems) to match opponent's #1 and #2. over the course of a season, it is the 3-5 spots that may carry the team to more victories. :)
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The future just got a bit brighter.
“I think with me at first, we’re going to have a better team on the field, competing every day,” - Hanely Ramirez. I'm skeptical, but optimistic he can pull it off. His difficulty in the outfield has been due to his lack of tracking fly balls. It's not unrealistic for a former ML SS to be able to play a decent 1st base. His willingness to make the switch is definately a nice surprise. An outfield of Betts, Bradley, and Castillo could be exciting. If HRam can pull it off, the position players could be set while Dombrowski can focus on the pitching.
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The future just got a bit brighter.
“I think with me at first, we’re going to have a better team on the field, competing every day,” - Hanely Ramirez. I'm skeptical, but optimistic he can pull it off. His difficulty in the outfield has been due to his lack of tracking fly balls. It's not unrealistic for a former ML SS to be able to play a decent 1st base. His willingness to make the switch is definately a nice surprise. An outfield of Betts, Bradley, and Castillo could be exciting. If HRam can pull it off, the position players could be set while Dombrowski can focus on the pitching.
yep. and it opens up the door for some impressive young OF talent for the sox. good news, let's hope hanley can manage the new position soon.
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They have some quality pieces. They also have 2 guys under contract for big $$ the next 4-5 years who should both be playing DH. To make matters worse, Ortiz will probably play DH full-time for at least another season.
They have some decent young pitchers, but none of them looks like a top of the rotation guy. They have a lot of OK arms, but none of them especially reliable or at all dominant.
It's not a bad place to be. Betts, Bogaerts, Swihart, Rodriguez, Owens, maybe Shaw. Those are some young, cost-controlled, talented, and likely productive players. Dombrowski has his work cut out for him though.
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Erod and Owens are elite level pitching prospects. Wright a solid number 3 guy
I love what I have seen from E-Rod but I have been kind of underwhelmed by Owens. I know it's a small sample size but he seems like the type of guy who if he can't get control of his pitches (which he has struggled with) then he may get shelled. Wright is barely a number 5, let alone a number 3. Still a lot of work to be done on this team and pitching staff.
I don't know if Price solves the issue. He'd be great short term but he has a lot of miles on his arm already. Seems like the type of guy who requires a long term deal and you regret it three years later when he still has four years left on his contract.
Lots of cost controlled talent on this team but still a ways to go. Here's hoping Dombrowski can crack the code