CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Monkhouse on September 19, 2013, 10:18:51 AM
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1) They were still in their prime? With Kendrick Perkins being healthy, and Rondo the same playoff monster that he is?
2) Lets say Miami Heat Big 3 were also healthy, and younger, who would win? I would say KG> Bosh, Allen = Wade, Lebron> Pierce. But I think in the long run the Big 3 for the Celtics would've gone 4-3 over the Miami Heat 3.
3) Do you think us winning championships would've pushed Pierce's achievement even further? What if Pierce had won 3-4 more rings? Even 5? Do you think he could be top 5 Celtic easily? And what would that say about the legacies of KG/Allen?
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We would win every single time. Every single time. There is no doubt about that. Four to five championships at least
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Prime KG + Prime Ray + Prime Pierce + Prime Rondo + Prime Perk > Heat
I don't think it's all that close. The only question would be whether all of those guys would be willing to sacrifice touches for the greater good of the team. I think they would have.
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We would win until those reach the tailend of their careers.
As dominant as LeBron is, Pierce was one of the guys he really has a hard time playing againts. And that was Paul in his thirties.
Against a Paul in his prime, whose also motivated because KG is with him, sweet Lord that would be a fun match up.
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I'll be shocked if the Heat took us to 6 games in a playoff series if we had KG, Paul, and Allen in their primes.
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Prime KG + Prime Ray + Prime Pierce + Prime Rondo + Prime Perk > Heat
I don't think it's all that close. The only question would be whether all of those guys would be willing to sacrifice touches for the greater good of the team. I think they would have.
Yeah. Man, those guys were freaking _goooood_ in their primes!
That would have been just ridiculous.
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Prime KG + Prime Ray + Prime Pierce + Prime Rondo + Prime Perk > Heat
I don't think it's all that close. The only question would be whether all of those guys would be willing to sacrifice touches for the greater good of the team. I think they would have.
Yeah. Man, those guys were freaking _goooood_ in their primes!
That would have been just ridiculous.
speaking of fantasies
how about
Prime Rondo + Prime Ray Allen + Prime Pierce + Prime KG + Prime Shaq - now that will be a dynasty
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Forget the prime stuff.....even past their primes they lost out on 3 or so championships
due to injuries, most significantly KG's.
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Prime KG + Prime Ray + Prime Pierce + Prime Rondo + Prime Perk > Heat
I don't think it's all that close. The only question would be whether all of those guys would be willing to sacrifice touches for the greater good of the team. I think they would have.
Yeah. Man, those guys were freaking _goooood_ in their primes!
That would have been just ridiculous.
speaking of fantasies
how about
Prime Rondo + Prime Ray Allen + Prime Pierce + Prime KG + Prime Shaq - now that will be a dynasty
That team would go 82-0 if healthy. They have the epitome of each position. True PG, True SG, True Slasher/SF, True PF, & True C. Unstoppable.
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We'd comfortably be better but I just wanna know, are you saying prime Allen = prime Wade? As in 05-09 Wade? Because I can't agree with that.
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We'd comfortably be better but I just wanna know, are you saying prime Allen = prime Wade? As in 05-09 Wade? Because I can't agree with that.
I dunno. It gets into splitting hairs as to what you value out of a position, but man, 2000-02 Ray Allen was ridiculous. He shot an absurd 56% eFG% and while he never shot at the volume that Wade did during his prime, he was an extremely efficient scorer so dangerous if he got just a glimmer of a shot that defenses freaked out trying to figure out how to keep the ball out of his hands. But this - as we also saw even in his later years - meant he was a powerful weapon even if he was moving without the ball.
Wade gave you more in terms of aggressively shooting and also grabbing rebounds, though. Wade always was more of a 'take over the game' physical type of SG. Needed the ball more in his hands back then, though.
Very different styles of SGs. As a complement to a 'Prime Pierce' and a 'Prime KG', at least, I would take Allen.
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We'd comfortably be better but I just wanna know, are you saying prime Allen = prime Wade? As in 05-09 Wade? Because I can't agree with that.
Obviously not, but are you saying there's a significant difference? I can't agree with that.
Then you've got to consider that prime Wade's biggest strengths (creating offense for others and efficiently taking 30 FGA/10 FTA a game) are basically completely negated by LeBron having the ball and running the offense. Whereas Ray's (and Pierce/KG's) biggest strengths are stack-able because they translate even when they're playing off the ball. Also keep in mind this is a testament to how Dwyane Wade is not aging well compared to 3 of the all time best aging players, playing in a game of who can win the most championships (longest dynasty).
Then you've got to consider that if you were going with a younger Wade you also have to take a younger LeBron. He's simply a whole different offensive force now; LeBron from 05-09 could be stopped with an elite team defense that loaded the paint, especially in the playoffs. You've got a top player either way but you're trading .565 FG% and .41 3PT% for .48 FG% and .32 3PT%. Bosh is also not nearly the same floor spacer and likely not strong enough to handle Center. Simply put, our big 3's primes line up much more evenly than theirs.
Giving these guys a prime Rondo just doesn't seem fair.
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We'd comfortably be better but I just wanna know, are you saying prime Allen = prime Wade? As in 05-09 Wade? Because I can't agree with that.
I dunno. It gets into splitting hairs as to what you value out of a position, but man, 2000-02 Ray Allen was ridiculous. He shot an absurd 56% eFG% and while he never shot at the volume that Wade did during his prime, he was an extremely efficient scorer so dangerous if he got just a glimmer of a shot that defenses freaked out trying to figure out how to keep the ball out of his hands. But this - as we also saw even in his later years - meant he was a powerful weapon even if he was moving without the ball.
Wade gave you more in terms of aggressively shooting and also grabbing rebounds, though. Wade always was more of a 'take over the game' physical type of SG. Needed the ball more in his hands back then, though.
Very different styles of SGs. As a complement to a 'Prime Pierce' and a 'Prime KG', at least, I would take Allen.
I'm not trying to undermine how dangerous Ray was when he was younger, and as a compliment to PP and KG, I'd rather have Ray too. But I'm just saying, if we're talking individual ability, Wade's better. Different kinds of players though, as you said. Wade's streaky jumpshot and over reliance on his waning athleticism means he probably won't be a reliable 3rd or 4th option (like Allen is now) at 35+.
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We'd comfortably be better but I just wanna know, are you saying prime Allen = prime Wade? As in 05-09 Wade? Because I can't agree with that.
Obviously not, but are you saying there's a significant difference? I can't agree with that.
Then you've got to consider that prime Wade's biggest strengths (creating offense for others and efficiently taking 30 FGA/10 FTA a game) are basically completely negated by LeBron having the ball and running the offense. Whereas Ray's (and Pierce/KG's) biggest strengths are stack-able because they translate even when they're playing off the ball. Also keep in mind this is a testament to how Dwyane Wade is not aging well compared to 3 of the all time best aging players, playing in a game of who can win the most championships (longest dynasty).
Then you've got to consider that if you were going with a younger Wade you also have to take a younger LeBron. He's simply a whole different offensive force now; LeBron from 05-09 could be stopped with an elite team defense that loaded the paint, especially in the playoffs. You've got a top player either way but you're trading .565 FG% and .41 3PT% for .48 FG% and .32 3PT%. Bosh is also not nearly the same floor spacer and likely not strong enough to handle Center. Simply put, our big 3's primes line up much more evenly than theirs.
Giving these guys a prime Rondo just doesn't seem fair.
I said we'd comfortably be better.....I'm not entirely sure what your two paragraphs have to do with an individual evaluation of Ray vs. Wade. My point wasn't to argue how good each team would be within the confines of the age and earlier talents of the two. I'm sure we'd beat them, I'm just saying prime Wade was a better player than prime Allen.
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Pierce is the comparison to Wade, KG to LBJ, and Allen to Bosh.
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If Pierce, KG and Ray got together as young as Bird, McHale and Parish did and assuming relative health over a 10 year period like they all had in their careers?
Five to six rings on the low side.
Maybe 7-8 rings on the high side.
LeBron, Wade and Bosh could "barely" handle a completely banged up Celtics team with those three guys in their mid 30's.
KG's intensity would have made Pierce's maturity arc develop in warp speed.
It would have been crushing defeats in my opinion, similar to the Celtics dominance of the Lakers in Bill Russell days.
This is also why if you think Rondo is special and he just needs another 1-2 two true superstars around him for us to win again, you have to move heaven and earth to get them ASAP, fill in the pieces afterwards...
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Make Rondo and Perk three years younger. Trade Antione Walker for KG, trade Delonte West and Sczerbiak for Ray Allen three years earlier. Keep Tony Allen, Posey, Eddie House, Acquire the Shaqmiester five years sooner. YOUZERS we win four to six titles. Perhaps the Lakers get one or two and Lequit tries to team up with Kevin Durant, Westbrook, and Jeff Green in Seattle (not Oklahoma) and still loses to the Celtics under my watchful eye ;)
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Prime KG + Prime Pierce would have been a perennial contender in this era and the previous one. But prime KG, PP and RA would have been a sure dynasty.
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Prime KG + Prime Ray + Prime Pierce + Prime Rondo + Prime Perk > Heat
I don't think it's all that close. The only question would be whether all of those guys would be willing to sacrifice touches for the greater good of the team. I think they would have.
Yeah. Man, those guys were freaking _goooood_ in their primes!
That would have been just ridiculous.
speaking of fantasies
how about
Prime Rondo + Prime Ray Allen + Prime Pierce + Prime KG + Prime Shaq - now that will be a dynasty
Imagine trying to drive on that team :o
That's a good 7-8 championships
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Prime KG + Prime Ray + Prime Pierce + Prime Rondo + Prime Perk > Heat
I don't think it's all that close. The only question would be whether all of those guys would be willing to sacrifice touches for the greater good of the team. I think they would have.
Yeah. Man, those guys were freaking _goooood_ in their primes!
That would have been just ridiculous.
speaking of fantasies
how about
Prime Rondo + Prime Ray Allen + Prime Pierce + Prime KG + Prime Shaq - now that will be a dynasty
Imagine trying to drive on that team :o
That's a good 7-8 championships
Gimme some prime Michael Finley
You can keep the prime Starbury
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Prime KG + Prime Ray + Prime Pierce + Prime Rondo + Prime Perk > Heat
I don't think it's all that close. The only question would be whether all of those guys would be willing to sacrifice touches for the greater good of the team. I think they would have.
Yeah but if you are going primes, you would also have to have the primes of the Heat and that starts to get a lot closer. Wade during the Shaq title run was a much better player than he is today. James, Bosh, and Chalmers are similar, but the real kicker is if you start adding the prime years for guys like Rashard Lewis, Haslem, Battier, etc. All of a sudden the Heat are a juggernaut.
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Prime KG + Prime Ray + Prime Pierce + Prime Rondo + Prime Perk > Heat
I don't think it's all that close. The only question would be whether all of those guys would be willing to sacrifice touches for the greater good of the team. I think they would have.
Yeah but if you are going primes, you would also have to have the primes of the Heat and that starts to get a lot closer. Wade during the Shaq title run was a much better player than he is today. James, Bosh, and Chalmers are similar, but the real kicker is if you start adding the prime years for guys like Rashard Lewis, Haslem, Battier, etc. All of a sudden the Heat are a juggernaut.
It's still not that close, Wade (or James) would still be much less effective without the ball in his hands. Making Wade somewhat better doesn't negate the fact that they don't complement each other very well.
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What bench are we giving the C's? PJ Brown and Cassell were the real deal in their primes too. PJ would be starting I'd imagine, maybe Cassell too.
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Prime Shaq himself could destroy almost every team out there. Add that to our prime big 3, and not even the Heat could take us (even if all their players are in their prime).
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For me the Heat are overrated. They are beating teams to get out of the East and to get rings that are either:
A) Old and at the end of their runs (Boston, San Antonio)
or
B) Young and inexperienced (OKC)
The last team they played that was somewhat in their prime still, was Dallas -to whom they lost.
Forget about KG, Pierce and Ray in their prime. The '08 team that crushed the Lakers, would absolutely maul Miami these last two years.
KG: already 31 / 32
Ray: already 30/31
Pierce: already 29 / 30
Whatever their ages were, they were not all still considered in their prime - they were just past it, and all had a tone of mileage on them, as well, for their ages.
The you have a young Center in Perkins and a very inexperienced point guard in Rondo.
This year and last year, Boston beats Miami 4-1, 4-2...both years.
Miami could barely get past Boston the last two years when KG, Pierce and Ray were all 34, 35+ and our team each year was already beat to crap.
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Pierce in his prime, every bit as dangerous as LeBron, in his own way, mostly because he is so clutch. LeBron even said Pierce was his toughest rival. In his prime, Pierce had the foot speed to largely stay in front of LeBron and he's always had the muscle and toughness to deal with him.
KG in his prime versus Bosh? Is that a real question. KG's intensity and a still young motor would have Bosh crying in a corner. Absolute beat down every game.
Ray would run wade "ragged". Ragged...
I say if Pierce, KG and Ray got together in their prime - 24-32, and had relative health, which they all did. 6-8 rings and mentioned as one of the great all time dynasties.
Not only were they all "that good' at their positions. In their own ways, they were all "incredibly clutch" in their own ways; Pierce as a flat out scorer when needed it, Ray as a long ball shooter and KG defensively, as well as offensively at times as well. But KG has always been incredibly clutch on D.