CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ScoobyDoo on September 17, 2013, 12:15:25 PM
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First question:
If we added a dominant center to the team, do you think we're a contender in a few years?
By dominant I mean, either:
A) A current NBA player such as DeMarcus Cousins or Andre Drummond
B) a top draft pick such as Cauley-Stein or Embild, who are projected to be very good to dominant...
Hypothetical lineup:
Cousins, Drummond, Embild or Stein / Faverani / Iverson
Sullinger / Olynyk
Jeff Green / Draft pick (Jersey's this year?)
Bradley / Brooks
Rondo / Pressey
Second Question:
If yes, what would be your strategy to get one of those players to Boston?
A) Package Rondo, Green and future draft picks, etc, for Cousins or Drummond, if that was an option? Then draft the best available point guard or get a decent point guard in return?
B) Play our young guys all year, go to the lottery, maybe take Stein or Embild with the 4th to 8th pick?
I ask because I would argue that a front court of:
Cousins or Drummond / Faverani / Iverson
Sullinger / Olynyk
Jeff Green / solid back up
Woudl just need a lights out off guard shooter and a "solid" point guard to be a contender within a few seasons.
Now, if you could get that center through the draft and keep Rondo, even better.
I think we are one key draft pick and one key move away from being right back in contention again.
Thoughts?
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Although having a 'dominant' center would be swell, I don't think one is necessary to get back into contention. I think we could do very well with a defensive-minded center that can
- protect the rim without being a foul machine
- provide a solid 9 rebounds per game with starter's minutes.
- Enough size and skill to guard the opposing center 1 on 1 with little help required.
- Has good hands that can catch passes from Rondo deep in the paint or lobs
- Can reliably put the ball in the basket from within 7 feet of the bucket with a very low rejection rate
Nothing earthshattering but a decent center. A Joakim Noah or Side-Show Bob type would do wonders for this team.
With that said, I do think that Sully and KO have to develop into very solid offensive players to support a lack of offensive production from the center spot and we definitely need a serious offensive threat at the SG spot (which we sorely lack right now)
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Although having a 'dominant' center would be swell, I don't think one is necessary to get back into contention. I think we could do very well with a defensive-minded center that can
- protect the rim without being a foul machine
- provide a solid 9 rebounds per game with starter's minutes.
- Enough size and skill to guard the opposing center 1 on 1 with little help required.
- Has good hands that can catch passes from Rondo deep in the paint or lobs
- Can reliably put the ball in the basket from within 7 feet of the bucket with a very low rejection rate
Nothing earthshattering but a decent center. A Joakim Noah or Side-Show Bob type would do wonders for this team.
With that said, I do think that Sully and KO have to develop into very solid offensive players to support a lack of offensive production from the center spot and we definitely need a serious offensive threat at the SG spot (which we sorely lack right now)
Of course its difficult to project African born center prospects but something about watching Joel Embiid makes me think he could fit this criteria. It might take him some time to adjust to the NBA but he has a tremendous physical profile and an emerging skillset.
Most people will be watching Kansas for Wiggins but Embiid is a more realistic target to suit up in green than Air Canada.
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Truly, it was amazing what this team did when it had a center with hands, but then again, the only time we've had that in recent memory is when Shaq was healthy, and one could argue for Wilcox. We could count KG, but he played outside so, so often. The lobs for dunks in all three cases were great to watch go down.
Big guys need hands on this team. More than jumpers, if I had to choose.
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Agreed that just a good solid, defensive and rebounding center might also be enough.
I find the Embild kid intriguing as well. As you mentioned, he appears to have the physical profile to be a good defensive center. If Sully, Olynyk and Green pan out as solid offensive options - adding a good solid center and a real shooter at the two spot and this team could be off and running quicker than we think.
One good draft pick
One key addition at center
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List of dominant centers in the NBA:
Tim Duncan
Dwight Howard
Roy Hibbert-if-hes-playing-the-Heat
So, sure.
If by "dominant center" you mean "a high quality All-Star caliber defensive center" -- such as Joakim Noah, Roy Hibbert-against-every-other-team, Larry Sanders, Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bogut-if-hes-healthy, or even Omer Asik -- then I think our team could challenge for a 4th or 5th seed and maybe have a shot at winning a playoff series.
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We just need a Center who can defend, rebound and finishes well. Anything else they can do positive outside of that is icing on top.
A healthy Bogut. (FA next year)
Asik.
Gortat. (FA next year)
Varejao.
Along with Rondo and Green, any of those four will give us a solid, relatively young core who can compete for the next 5 years. Of course we need to build the rest of the team but starting with a core like that is headed for the right direction.
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One of the many depends questions.
Can KO be a outside all around skilled "center", give him an offensive game like McHale and put a big body down low like sully (or humphries) and add a guy like green. To me if KO can develop a good nba offensive game then that is a nice front line. We would be a top notch sg away from a very good team.
If KO can't turn into that outside game center then he would be a pf and the log jam continues! sully, bass, wallace, ko, humphries too many guys and not enough minutes. Still think ainge has a trade or 2 to tweak the team. KO has shown good passing ability with the ability to hit the outside shot that creates lanes. Rondo with lane space is ::) . I love green on the post against just about every sf in the league. Wait and see season
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I have long dreamed of Marc Gasol to find his way over to Boston. I don't think Memphis will ever let him out of their sight (hurting his chances at a ring), but I could just imagine Rondo, Bradley, Green, Sullinger and Gasol being such a dominant balanced basketball team, much like Indiana with Hibbert.
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I think it would take at least a package of Rondo, Sullinger or Olynyk, and picks to get either Cousins or Drummond here. Even then I'm not sure Detroit or Sacramento would bite. In my opinion, if Dumars were willing to give up Monroe or Drummond for Rondo, the trade would have already gone down.
Picking up a center in the draft seems more reasonable. However, I think there's a very good chance we nab a top 5 pick, which would be too high to take Embiid, Austin etc. Also, Embiid is about as raw as prospects come. Rondo will be on the wrong side of 30 by the time Embiid is an impact player.
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Although having a 'dominant' center would be swell, I don't think one is necessary to get back into contention. I think we could do very well with a defensive-minded center that can
- protect the rim without being a foul machine
- provide a solid 9 rebounds per game with starter's minutes.
- Enough size and skill to guard the opposing center 1 on 1 with little help required.
- Has good hands that can catch passes from Rondo deep in the paint or lobs
- Can reliably put the ball in the basket from within 7 feet of the bucket with a very low rejection rate
Nothing earthshattering but a decent center. A Joakim Noah or Side-Show Bob type would do wonders for this team.
With that said, I do think that Sully and KO have to develop into very solid offensive players to support a lack of offensive production from the center spot and we definitely need a serious offensive threat at the SG spot (which we sorely lack right now)
Agreed.
I think we're a defensive 5 and offensive 2 away from having a strong team again. I think Omer Asik is a realistic target and I can see Danny pursuing.
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We just need a Center who can defend, rebound and finishes well. Anything else they can do positive outside of that is icing on top.
A healthy Bogut. (FA next year)
Asik.
Gortat. (FA next year)
Varejao.
Along with Rondo and Green, any of those four will give us a solid, relatively young core who can compete for the next 5 years. Of course we need to build the rest of the team but starting with a core like that is headed for the right direction.
Should we go back in time and draft dieng instead of olynyk??
You dont need a top tier defensive center to have a great team. It helps no doubt. But not mandatory. Sully and olynyk will get the job done on both ends. Lets at least give them a chance
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I think that if we added a dominant player at any position except Rondo you could make the line up look good enough to win in the first round of the playoffs. That being said I don't think any of those centers make us a true title contender. We are probably two players away for that. I think the lottery will depend upon Rondo more than anything so we probably will get a high pick. The burden will be on Ainge to select a player who lives up to his hype.
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I am one who leans more towards the need for a top 10 big man to pair with Rondo- if we are talking about a true contender for a championship.
But for a rebuild project like ours I don't mind pairing him with a project big with athleticism and size. I think DeAndre Jordan would've been perfect to pair with Rondo. He's a classic example of a guy who needs starters minutes and easy buckets under the rim to look better than he is. We could have made him a very good trade asset if he'd played a season or two with Rondo.
Blake Griffin takes away too much from DeAndre's chance to learn and thrive as the soul big man- ie a poor mans D Howard.
Rondo makes any center look good (see how over rated Perkins became after playing with Rondo and KG? And he's just had a record low for PER in a finals series only 2 seasons later- he's a chump).
I consider KG a top 10 big man and it was his ability to stretch the floor that increased Rondo's productivity and effectiveness.
A pick and pop big man who can defend and rebound with the occasional post move is what we'd need- but any big man that can do those things well is automatically a top 10 center.
Whoever plays with Rondo is going to be lucky because his passing around the rim is the best in the NBA- all you have to do is finish and hit 60% from the line.
Someone mentioned Asik and he'd be a good candidate to play with Rondo and then move him on as part of a trade for a star or higher pick. He's a rich mans Perkins.
Ultimately you need a center that will go after offensive rebounds and tries to score at least 15 ppg with Rondo. We need that offense if our point guard isn't a natural scorer.
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Although having a 'dominant' center would be swell, I don't think one is necessary to get back into contention. I think we could do very well with a defensive-minded center that can
- protect the rim without being a foul machine
- provide a solid 9 rebounds per game with starter's minutes.
- Enough size and skill to guard the opposing center 1 on 1 with little help required.
- Has good hands that can catch passes from Rondo deep in the paint or lobs
- Can reliably put the ball in the basket from within 7 feet of the bucket with a very low rejection rate
Nothing earthshattering but a decent center. A Joakim Noah or Side-Show Bob type would do wonders for this team.
With that said, I do think that Sully and KO have to develop into very solid offensive players to support a lack of offensive production from the center spot and we definitely need a serious offensive threat at the SG spot (which we sorely lack right now)
Agreed.
I think we're a defensive 5 and offensive 2 away from having a strong team again. I think Omer Asik is a realistic target and I can see Danny pursuing.
I hope Danny does.
Outside of free throw shoting, he does what this team needed for the past 3 years. Size and strenght, rebounds and finishes well all without commanding a ton of touches and is happy with it.
TBH id trade Sully for him right now.
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Although having a 'dominant' center would be swell, I don't think one is necessary to get back into contention. I think we could do very well with a defensive-minded center that can
- protect the rim without being a foul machine
- provide a solid 9 rebounds per game with starter's minutes.
- Enough size and skill to guard the opposing center 1 on 1 with little help required.
- Has good hands that can catch passes from Rondo deep in the paint or lobs
- Can reliably put the ball in the basket from within 7 feet of the bucket with a very low rejection rate
Nothing earthshattering but a decent center. A Joakim Noah or Side-Show Bob type would do wonders for this team.
With that said, I do think that Sully and KO have to develop into very solid offensive players to support a lack of offensive production from the center spot and we definitely need a serious offensive threat at the SG spot (which we sorely lack right now)
Agreed.
I think we're a defensive 5 and offensive 2 away from having a strong team again. I think Omer Asik is a realistic target and I can see Danny pursuing.
I hope Danny does.
Outside of free throw shoting, he does what this team needed for the past 3 years. Size and strenght, rebounds and finishes well all without commanding a ton of touches and is happy with it.
TBH id trade Sully for him right now.
While I'd like Asik, I'd prefer to unload some combo of Bass, KH, Wallace, Lee, Brooks, Crawford.
Houston is in "win now" mode so hopefully a solid vet would be preferable for them.
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I think it would take at least a package of Rondo, Sullinger or Olynyk, and picks to get either Cousins or Drummond here. Even then I'm not sure Detroit or Sacramento would bite. In my opinion, if Dumars were willing to give up Monroe or Drummond for Rondo, the trade would have already gone down.
Picking up a center in the draft seems more reasonable. However, I think there's a very good chance we nab a top 5 pick, which would be too high to take Embiid, Austin etc. Also, Embiid is about as raw as prospects come. Rondo will be on the wrong side of 30 by the time Embiid is an impact player.
I agree that Embiid is raw in that he has such limited basketball experience, but barring a sub par season at Kansas, top 5 is not outside the realm of possibility. I think the current discussion is sleeping on the fact that Jabari Parker is very likely to not come out this year.
So assuming he doesn't. The top 4 is looking like Wiggins, Randle, Exum (assuming he declares) and Marcus Smart. After them is when you start seeing tier 2 players such as Gary Harris, Andrew Harrison, Glenn Robinson III, Wayne Seldin, Dario Saric, Hezonja and of those, there is no one I would rather take than Embiid especially given our depth at guard.
Could he take time to develop? Sure, but what is the alternative? Are any of the players I just mentioned going to start over Bradley, Rondo or Green? Meanwhile Embiid has a legitimate chance to develop into a starter quality true center on a rookie scale contract. We could still sign Gortat for instance and wait for Embiid to develop. But at the end of the day in Danny I trust. If he likes one of the other player you'll hear no gripe from me.
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Asik or Gortat / Faverani / Embild
Sully / Olynyk / Iverson (just love this kid)
If you put Gortat and Olynyk on the court with Rondo that would be a nightmare to try and defend. Gortat is great in the pick and roll and Olynyk is a good shooter from distance.
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NBA teams haven't needed a 'dominant center' to win the title in years. A very good power forward plus a superstar plus good supporting cast seems to get the job done.
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I have this fantasy that Hasheem Thabeet will play for Brad Stevens, and Stevens will get the most out of what he can do like he does with his Butler players.
Thabeet has the size, length and the defensive instinct. If he can rebound consistently and be a presence down low defensively, he'll do wonders.
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Although having a 'dominant' center would be swell, I don't think one is necessary to get back into contention. I think we could do very well with a defensive-minded center that can
- protect the rim without being a foul machine
- provide a solid 9 rebounds per game with starter's minutes.
- Enough size and skill to guard the opposing center 1 on 1 with little help required.
- Has good hands that can catch passes from Rondo deep in the paint or lobs
- Can reliably put the ball in the basket from within 7 feet of the bucket with a very low rejection rate
Nothing earthshattering but a decent center. A Joakim Noah or Side-Show Bob type would do wonders for this team.
With that said, I do think that Sully and KO have to develop into very solid offensive players to support a lack of offensive production from the center spot and we definitely need a serious offensive threat at the SG spot (which we sorely lack right now)
Agreed.
I think we're a defensive 5 and offensive 2 away from having a strong team again. I think Omer Asik is a realistic target and I can see Danny pursuing.
I agree with the defensive 5 part. Sullynyk + a legit anchor on D looks real good.
I'd like to see what the offense looks like with Brad Stevens, Olynyk and co. first. Judging AB based on his past season is a bit hasty.
Without knowing what the offense looks like, I'd say we may anywhere between just being one role player wing away (for a 3 guard rotation) or needing a starting caliber 2 guard that allows AB to play only 20-25 mins a game if we had a center.