CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: bobbyv on August 20, 2013, 11:22:06 AM
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Here's an interesting article for Bleacherreport. It breaks down its metrics and such. A lot of people said Rondo took plays off on the defensive end, but what if it was just him playing smart defense? The list is definitely interesting.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1734626-ranking-the-best-defensive-point-guards-in-the-nba
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Here's an interesting article for Bleacherreport. It breaks down its metrics and such. A lot of people said Rondo took plays off on the defensive end, but what if it was just him playing smart defense? The list is definitely interesting.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1734626-ranking-the-best-defensive-point-guards-in-the-nba
I've always thought that he is. And, opposing NBA coaches seem to be in agreement. That's why they keep naming him to the all defensive team.
On the other hand, many Celtics fans who watch every game love to point to instances where he gets beaten off the dribble and claim that he is a lazy defender. Unfortunately, this kind of analysis is generally meaningless as it ignores context such as how often do other point guards get beaten off the dribble by comparison.
I think the truth is that most other point guards get beaten more than Rondo, make less plays than Rondo, and are generally less disruptive than Rondo. This is why he's considered the best defensive PG in the league and has been for a while now.
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Absolutely. I'll be the first to criticize Rondo's defense because he's been gambling on defense a lot more in recent years, but the fact that he can still maintain such stellar defensive stats goes to show how elite of a defender he is.
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Interesting.
The ranking doesn't look crazy, though you can quibble with a few things (not sure how they rank Lin 10th above Bledsoe for example).
Aside: is it just me or is Bleacher Report getting better? I'd say that over the last six months or so I've read a handful of decent articles there...where before it was pretty much 100% dreck.
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So this means on paper, we have the best defensive front court. Rondo and AB play great together and I know Danny Ainge knows this. Lets tank this year, get our boy wiggins. Put jeff green back at the 4 like his OKC days, and get that run N gun offense going that Rondo is so great at.
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It's not meaningless at all. Another PG getting beat has nothing to do with him taking plays off. If you intentionally don't give your best effort much of the time, you have no business being mentioned as the best defensive PG. Do you think KG takes defensive plays off? Bradley takes plays off?
Rondo is a very good defensive PG, but he would be elite if he gave the effort. Considering he also does that on both sides of the ball for entire games during the regular season, you have to question his character a bit. There is a reason that he is at the top of the second tier of PG's in the league and not the best. If he gave it his all, he'd very likely be the best on both sides of the floor.
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It's not meaningless at all. Another PG getting beat has nothing to do with him taking plays off. If you intentionally don't give your best effort much of the time, you have no business being mentioned as the best defensive PG. Do you think KG takes defensive plays off? Bradley takes plays off?
Rondo is a very good defensive PG, but he would be elite if he gave the effort. Considering he also does that on both sides of the ball for entire games during the regular season, you have to question his character a bit. There is a reason that he is at the top of the second tier of PG's in the league and not the best. If he gave it his all, he'd very likely be the best on both sides of the floor.
You're doing it. What you seem to be saying is that when other point guards get beat, it's because they just got beat, not because they weren't trying hard, but when Rondo gets beat, it's always because he wasn't trying hard enough?
Still he gets beaten less than other point guards. You must really have an inflated opinion of his defensive ability if you think he can be the best point guard defender in the league while also being the laziest, only giving occasional effort.
I agree that he's the best, but I actually think he works hard to be that.
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Here's an interesting article for Bleacherreport. It breaks down its metrics and such. A lot of people said Rondo took plays off on the defensive end, but what if it was just him playing smart defense? The list is definitely interesting.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1734626-ranking-the-best-defensive-point-guards-in-the-nba
Not really impressed with the metric, FWIW.
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probably not even the best defensive PG on the Celtics. That's Bradley... a one dimensional point guard who can only play defense. But he does it well.
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probably not even the best defensive PG on the Celtics. That's Bradley... a one dimensional point guard who can only play defense. But he does it well.
I don't mind having two of the very best defensive guards in the league.
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I think Paul is better, but they are close enough together you could reasonably argue either.
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Gambles TOO MUCH.
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Gambles TOO MUCH.
Can you back up that opinion with any statistics?
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Gambles TOO MUCH.
Can you back up that opinion with any statistics?
The fact that it's written in all caps isn't proof enough for you?
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Rondo is one of the better defensive point guards without a doubt. I think he has had the problem on no real backup in his celtic career and therefore doesn't play all out like bradley does. I like AB doing what he does but I do wonder if he toned the defense down just slightly would his jumper improve?
One thing rondo does great (as did pierce) he funnels his man into the defense where he should. He isn't really getting beat but putting his man into a double team or tight zone. Paul wasn't a great man on defender but very good team defender.
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One thing rondo does great (as did pierce) he funnels his man into the defense where he should. He isn't really getting beat but putting his man into a double team or tight zone. Paul wasn't a great man on defender but very good team defender.
It'll be interesting to see how Rondo (and Stevens) adapt to KG's absence in the back line of the defense.
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He is one of the top defenders at the PG spot.
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No, no way. I don't think he's even average overall and if he is, he gets there with his ability to create havoc balanced out by his apathetic attempts to contain dribble penetration and rotate and contest shots. Rondo doesn't funnel his man to any spot. He lets his man beat him clean then tries to steal the ball from behind about 90 percent of the time. It's almost too cliche. I hate it when casual fans think a star player's defense declines after he becomes a star but it really did happen with Rondo.
Rondo was never great at containing dribble penetration early in his career either but he at least tried to slow his man down some. Where he was great was giving the Celtics defense another near wing-sized defender in the rotation defense. In the 2008 Finals, it was pretty amazing to see Rondo contest a Gasol jumpshot so well that Gasol turned it down. How many point guards can do that, even the ones that are bigger than him? Rondo being so long and fast meant the Celtics' team defense had no exploitable gaps. The past few seasons, it's hit or miss whether he's even going to run out and contest a shooter at all.
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I think Paul is better, but they are close enough together you could reasonably argue either.
I don't think Conley is far behind either.
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No, no way. I don't think he's even average overall and if he is, he gets there with his ability to create havoc balanced out by his apathetic attempts to contain dribble penetration and rotate and contest shots. Rondo doesn't funnel his man to any spot. He lets his man beat him clean then tries to steal the ball from behind about 90 percent of the time. It's almost too cliche. I hate it when casual fans think a star player's defense declines after he becomes a star but it really did happen with Rondo.
Rondo was never great at containing dribble penetration early in his career either but he at least tried to slow his man down some. Where he was great was giving the Celtics defense another near wing-sized defender in the rotation defense. In the 2008 Finals, it was pretty amazing to see Rondo contest a Gasol jumpshot so well that Gasol turned it down. How many point guards can do that, even the ones that are bigger than him? Rondo being so long and fast meant the Celtics' team defense had no exploitable gaps. The past few seasons, it's hit or miss whether he's even going to run out and contest a shooter at all.
This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is; obviously NBA head coaches don't understand the game as well as Galeto does.
I will add that whenever a post claims that something happens "about 90 percent of the time" without any kind of back up, that it's pretty hard to take seriously.
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Hard to say if he's the best, but definitely up there. I think PG is one of the most defensively weak positions because:
1. PG is typically the smallest player (in terms of length and strength) on the court
2. You need to send opposing PG's, who are typically the quickest and best ball handling players on the court. Defending a quick PG with great handles it's hard because they can change direction in a heartbeat and you never really know what they aee going to do.
3. PG usually does majority of ball handling, so as the opposing PG you are basically the first line of defense. The other positions are typically next line of defense and already have some idea of what's coming before ir gets to them.
I think there aee very few "elite" defensive PG's - Bradley's ability to change a game with his defense is a rare skill for a 6'2"-6'3" guy. Last season I think Rondo let his defense drop off a bit, gambled a lot more and seemed to not play D with as much intensity as he has in the last. Maybe part of that ass due to his increased offensive responsibility with Pierce and KG in the decline. In past seasons though he was elite defensively, and definately deserved consideration as t he best defensive PG in the NBA.
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I think Paul is better, but they are close enough together you could reasonably argue either.
Paul and Rondo play differently on defense. Paul's more of a "stick with your guy" defender while Rondo creates more havoc for opposing offenses by doing more than just defending his guy.
A couple of things worth pointing out, 1) while people can quibble about how the numbers are munged to come up with a rating, it's generally the case that no matter how the people doing these lists weight the numbers, Rondo comes out near the top. That's because his defensive numbers are so good. 2) Rondo's always near the top of the league for point guards in defensive stats. The other point guards seem to rise and fall by the year but Rondo's consistently at or near the top in a number of categories.
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rondo was the best defensive pg a few years ago, but now is only as good as he exerts himself defensively.
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No, no way. I don't think he's even average overall and if he is, he gets there with his ability to create havoc balanced out by his apathetic attempts to contain dribble penetration and rotate and contest shots. Rondo doesn't funnel his man to any spot. He lets his man beat him clean then tries to steal the ball from behind about 90 percent of the time. It's almost too cliche. I hate it when casual fans think a star player's defense declines after he becomes a star but it really did happen with Rondo.
Rondo was never great at containing dribble penetration early in his career either but he at least tried to slow his man down some. Where he was great was giving the Celtics defense another near wing-sized defender in the rotation defense. In the 2008 Finals, it was pretty amazing to see Rondo contest a Gasol jumpshot so well that Gasol turned it down. How many point guards can do that, even the ones that are bigger than him? Rondo being so long and fast meant the Celtics' team defense had no exploitable gaps. The past few seasons, it's hit or miss whether he's even going to run out and contest a shooter at all.
This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is; obviously NBA head coaches don't understand the game as well as Galeto does.
I will add that whenever a post claims that something happens "about 90 percent of the time" without any kind of back up, that it's pretty hard to take seriously.
This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is: obviously Celtics18 thinks coaches give a crap about voting for the all-defense teams.
But seriously, do you really think Rondo is good at containing dribble penetration and gives full effort most of the time to run out and contest shooters? Those were my points why I think Rondo is at best an average defender and certainly not in the running for the best defensive point guard. Your response is: count the all-defense teams sucka!
The Celtics have been better defensively without Rondo on the floor the past three seasons and the on/off data underrates the impact because the games the Celtics are much better defensively in the games Rondo completely misses. How can that player be the best defensive point guard in the league?
On paper, with his length and athleticism, he should be right up there but he doesn't give a dang.
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Hard to say if he's the best, but definitely up there. I think PG is one of the most defensively weak positions because:
1. PG is typically the smallest player (in terms of length and strength) on the court
2. You need to send opposing PG's, who are typically the quickest and best ball handling players on the court. Defending a quick PG with great handles it's hard because they can change direction in a heartbeat and you never really know what they aee going to do.
3. PG usually does majority of ball handling, so as the opposing PG you are basically the first line of defense. The other positions are typically next line of defense and already have some idea of what's coming before ir gets to them.
I think there aee very few "elite" defensive PG's - Bradley's ability to change a game with his defense is a rare skill for a 6'2"-6'3" guy. Last season I think Rondo let his defense drop off a bit, gambled a lot more and seemed to not play D with as much intensity as he has in the last. Maybe part of that ass due to his increased offensive responsibility with Pierce and KG in the decline. In past seasons though he was elite defensively, and definately deserved consideration as t he best defensive PG in the NBA.
It's also worth pointing out that, at least until Bradley came back, Rondo was generally guarding whichever guard on the other team was the better scorer.
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No, no way. I don't think he's even average overall and if he is, he gets there with his ability to create havoc balanced out by his apathetic attempts to contain dribble penetration and rotate and contest shots. Rondo doesn't funnel his man to any spot. He lets his man beat him clean then tries to steal the ball from behind about 90 percent of the time. It's almost too cliche. I hate it when casual fans think a star player's defense declines after he becomes a star but it really did happen with Rondo.
Rondo was never great at containing dribble penetration early in his career either but he at least tried to slow his man down some. Where he was great was giving the Celtics defense another near wing-sized defender in the rotation defense. In the 2008 Finals, it was pretty amazing to see Rondo contest a Gasol jumpshot so well that Gasol turned it down. How many point guards can do that, even the ones that are bigger than him? Rondo being so long and fast meant the Celtics' team defense had no exploitable gaps. The past few seasons, it's hit or miss whether he's even going to run out and contest a shooter at all.
This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is; obviously NBA head coaches don't understand the game as well as Galeto does.
I will add that whenever a post claims that something happens "about 90 percent of the time" without any kind of back up, that it's pretty hard to take seriously.
This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is: obviously Celtics18 thinks coaches give a crap about voting for the all-defense teams.
But seriously, do you really think Rondo is good at containing dribble penetration and gives full effort most of the time to run out and contest shooters? Those were my points why I think Rondo is at best an average defender and certainly not in the running for the best defensive point guard. Your response is: count the all-defense teams sucka!
The Celtics have been better defensively without Rondo on the floor the past three seasons and the on/off data underrates the impact because the games the Celtics are much better defensively in the games Rondo completely misses. How can that player be the best defensive point guard in the league?
On paper, with his length and athleticism, he should be right up there but he doesn't give a dang.
I think the real point is that while Rondo can improve in areas of his defense, it doesn't make him a worse defending PG relative to his competition. Just because he is the best or one of the best defending PGs doesn't mean he is a perfect defender. Sometimes he is lazy, sometimes he doesn't close out, and sometimes he doesn't fight through the pick, but advanced stats and even my personal "eye test" have him ranked at the top.
I'm honestly shocked at the amount of people who complain that Rondo doesn't stop dribble penetration. We all remember that Rondo is point guard and defends other point guards? Their job is to be able to penetrate any defense. The main job of a point guard on defense is to wreak havoc at the top with help defense and make sure he doesn't funnel an offensive player to his strong side or the weak side of our defense. There is barely such a thing as stopping a point guard's dribble penetration in the NBA without proper help and rotations, which Rondo is smarter than almost anyone at doing.
I mean everyone keeps talking about these stronger defenders at the PG spot, but why are they stronger? None of these other guys are stopping dribble penetration or are even able to close out on every 3 pointer. We see Rondo himself absolutely slice up guys like Paul, Williams, and Parker on the dribble. No one can stop Rondo's dribble penetration, and I rarely see detractors of Rondo's defense ever notice or point that out.
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No, no way. I don't think he's even average overall and if he is, he gets there with his ability to create havoc balanced out by his apathetic attempts to contain dribble penetration and rotate and contest shots. Rondo doesn't funnel his man to any spot. He lets his man beat him clean then tries to steal the ball from behind about 90 percent of the time. It's almost too cliche. I hate it when casual fans think a star player's defense declines after he becomes a star but it really did happen with Rondo.
Rondo was never great at containing dribble penetration early in his career either but he at least tried to slow his man down some. Where he was great was giving the Celtics defense another near wing-sized defender in the rotation defense. In the 2008 Finals, it was pretty amazing to see Rondo contest a Gasol jumpshot so well that Gasol turned it down. How many point guards can do that, even the ones that are bigger than him? Rondo being so long and fast meant the Celtics' team defense had no exploitable gaps. The past few seasons, it's hit or miss whether he's even going to run out and contest a shooter at all.
This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is; obviously NBA head coaches don't understand the game as well as Galeto does.
I will add that whenever a post claims that something happens "about 90 percent of the time" without any kind of back up, that it's pretty hard to take seriously.
This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is: obviously Celtics18 thinks coaches give a crap about voting for the all-defense teams.
But seriously, do you really think Rondo is good at containing dribble penetration and gives full effort most of the time to run out and contest shooters? Those were my points why I think Rondo is at best an average defender and certainly not in the running for the best defensive point guard. Your response is: count the all-defense teams sucka!
The Celtics have been better defensively without Rondo on the floor the past three seasons and the on/off data underrates the impact because the games the Celtics are much better defensively in the games Rondo completely misses. How can that player be the best defensive point guard in the league?
On paper, with his length and athleticism, he should be right up there but he doesn't give a dang.
Spot up shooters do exceedingly poorly against Rondo, obviously you're missing something in your analysis. And you'd have to consider that Rondo a) plays the most minutes on the team, so he gets the most minutes with the backups, b) spends more minutes playing when KG's on the bench than any of the other guards and c) played most of his minutes early in the season before the new players figured out our defensive schemes before you put too much stock into those on/off numbers. If you watched the games in Nov/Dec last year you heard Scal talking a lot about players missing rotations (which led to defensive breakdowns) and he was generally talking about all the new guys, not Rondo.
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I gotta say, I don't really care who the best defensive point guard in the league is, because it doesn't seem like point guard is a position that makes a large difference on that end of the floor.
Give me a good defensive big over a great defensive point guard any day, considering the league's current rule set.
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No, no way. I don't think he's even average overall and if he is, he gets there with his ability to create havoc balanced out by his apathetic attempts to contain dribble penetration and rotate and contest shots. Rondo doesn't funnel his man to any spot. He lets his man beat him clean then tries to steal the ball from behind about 90 percent of the time. It's almost too cliche. I hate it when casual fans think a star player's defense declines after he becomes a star but it really did happen with Rondo.
Rondo was never great at containing dribble penetration early in his career either but he at least tried to slow his man down some. Where he was great was giving the Celtics defense another near wing-sized defender in the rotation defense. In the 2008 Finals, it was pretty amazing to see Rondo contest a Gasol jumpshot so well that Gasol turned it down. How many point guards can do that, even the ones that are bigger than him? Rondo being so long and fast meant the Celtics' team defense had no exploitable gaps. The past few seasons, it's hit or miss whether he's even going to run out and contest a shooter at all.
This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is; obviously NBA head coaches don't understand the game as well as Galeto does.
I will add that whenever a post claims that something happens "about 90 percent of the time" without any kind of back up, that it's pretty hard to take seriously.
This is one of those posts where I guess all I can say is: obviously Celtics18 thinks coaches give a crap about voting for the all-defense teams.
But seriously, do you really think Rondo is good at containing dribble penetration and gives full effort most of the time to run out and contest shooters? Those were my points why I think Rondo is at best an average defender and certainly not in the running for the best defensive point guard. Your response is: count the all-defense teams sucka!
The Celtics have been better defensively without Rondo on the floor the past three seasons and the on/off data underrates the impact because the games the Celtics are much better defensively in the games Rondo completely misses. How can that player be the best defensive point guard in the league?
On paper, with his length and athleticism, he should be right up there but he doesn't give a dang.
I think the real point is that while Rondo can improve in areas of his defense, it doesn't make him a worse defending PG relative to his competition. Just because he is the best or one of the best defending PGs doesn't mean he is a perfect defender. Sometimes he is lazy, sometimes he doesn't close out, and sometimes he doesn't fight through the pick, but advanced stats and even my personal "eye test" have him ranked at the top.
I'm honestly shocked at the amount of people who complain that Rondo doesn't stop dribble penetration. We all remember that Rondo is point guard and defends other point guards? Their job is to be able to penetrate any defense. The main job of a point guard on defense is to wreak havoc at the top with help defense and make sure he doesn't funnel an offensive player to his strong side or the weak side of our defense. There is barely such a thing as stopping a point guard's dribble penetration in the NBA without proper help and rotations, which Rondo is smarter than almost anyone at doing.
I mean everyone keeps talking about these stronger defenders at the PG spot, but why are they stronger? None of these other guys are stopping dribble penetration or are even able to close out on every 3 pointer. We see Rondo himself absolutely slice up guys like Paul, Williams, and Parker on the dribble. No one can stop Rondo's dribble penetration, and I rarely see detractors of Rondo's defense ever notice or point that out.
Thank you.
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I gotta say, I don't really care who the best defensive point guard in the league is, because it doesn't seem like point guard is a position that makes a large difference on that end of the floor.
Give me a good defensive big over a great defensive point guard any day, considering the league's current rule set.
Well that's why I think Rondo is so uniquely important. Positional defense at the point guard spot is overrated, but proper help defense and getting a point guard out of his comfort zone is super important. I think Rondo is pretty good at making point guards do things they don't want to do (like making a scoring point guard pass and a passing point guard score). Of course I have no evidence for this so my point is moot, but it is why I like his defense personally. I don't really care if his man dribbles by him a bunch of times in a game, though, because like you said it's not really important or even possible to stop in today's NBA.
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I think the real point is that while Rondo can improve in areas of his defense, it doesn't make him a worse defending PG relative to his competition. Just because he is the best or one of the best defending PGs doesn't mean he is a perfect defender. Sometimes he is lazy, sometimes he doesn't close out, and sometimes he doesn't fight through the pick, but advanced stats and even my personal "eye test" have him ranked at the top.
I'm honestly shocked at the amount of people who complain that Rondo doesn't stop dribble penetration. We all remember that Rondo is point guard and defends other point guards? Their job is to be able to penetrate any defense. The main job of a point guard on defense is to wreak havoc at the top with help defense and make sure he doesn't funnel an offensive player to his strong side or the weak side of our defense. There is barely such a thing as stopping a point guard's dribble penetration in the NBA without proper help and rotations, which Rondo is smarter than almost anyone at doing.
If the fact that Rondo is a flawed and seemingly inconsistent defender makes it difficult to accept that he's the "best defender" at his position, I think it says more about the role that point guards have defensively at this point in time.
The league so heavily favors quick, athletic ballhandlers, that the best a defender at that position can do is try to gamble and get steals by jumping out in passing lanes and playing as risky as they can without being an outright sieve as far as allowing dribble penetration is concerned.
When I watch Rondo it's not often that I think, wow, he's dominating on defense, the same way I might feel that a great center such as Gasol, Howard, Asik, Noah, or Hibbert dominate on that end. But I can't say that any other point guards come to mind that have a more noticeable impact on defense, unless you want to count Avery Bradley as a point guard.
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I think the real point is that while Rondo can improve in areas of his defense, it doesn't make him a worse defending PG relative to his competition. Just because he is the best or one of the best defending PGs doesn't mean he is a perfect defender. Sometimes he is lazy, sometimes he doesn't close out, and sometimes he doesn't fight through the pick, but advanced stats and even my personal "eye test" have him ranked at the top.
I'm honestly shocked at the amount of people who complain that Rondo doesn't stop dribble penetration. We all remember that Rondo is point guard and defends other point guards? Their job is to be able to penetrate any defense. The main job of a point guard on defense is to wreak havoc at the top with help defense and make sure he doesn't funnel an offensive player to his strong side or the weak side of our defense. There is barely such a thing as stopping a point guard's dribble penetration in the NBA without proper help and rotations, which Rondo is smarter than almost anyone at doing.
If the fact that Rondo is a flawed and seemingly inconsistent defender makes it difficult to accept that he's the "best defender" at his position, I think it says more about the role that point guards have defensively at this point in time.
The league so heavily favors quick, athletic ballhandlers, that the best a defender at that position can do is try to gamble and get steals by jumping out in passing lanes and playing as risky as they can without being an outright sieve as far as allowing dribble penetration is concerned.
When I watch Rondo it's not often that I think, wow, he's dominating on defense, the same way I might feel that a great center such as Gasol, Howard, Asik, Noah, or Hibbert dominate on that end. But I can't say that any other point guards come to mind that have a more noticeable impact on defense, unless you want to count Avery Bradley as a point guard.
En, yeah, like I said in my previous post, point guards are just guarded differently than other positions. It's not as important to guard a point guard straight up like other positions, IMO, for two reasons. One being that I don't think it's really possible based on the rules and the insane handling skills of some point guards and the second reason being that it is far more important for a point guard to disrupt the play as it starts than to stop something as simple as a step back jumper or other scoring moves. It's hard to notice the little things that guards do all around the league to stop a point guard from stopping his play. That's why sometimes it is a good thing to let a player fly by you if you know he is heading into the teeth of your defense. I'm not saying its something Rondo does or should do every play, but it's definitely something that happens by design now and then. Sometimes it feels like that is the only way to properly defend a guard these days with the rules favoring less physical defense.
I wouldn't say it's as important as good interior defense either, though
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Avery Bradley. But of the other top 5-10 point guards, Rondo, Conley and Paul in that order.
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We see Rondo himself absolutely slice up guys like Paul, Williams, and Parker on the dribble. No one can stop Rondo's dribble penetration, and I rarely see detractors of Rondo's defense ever notice or point that out.
That's deemed to be acceptable defense here. Any time I point out that Rondo gets around the other point guard easier than they get around him they claim that he should be able to because of his speed. Every time someone gets past him it's either gambling or laziness. Every time he gets by someone it's not their fault. It's little wonder he's seen as a poor defender.
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I think the real point is that while Rondo can improve in areas of his defense, it doesn't make him a worse defending PG relative to his competition. Just because he is the best or one of the best defending PGs doesn't mean he is a perfect defender. Sometimes he is lazy, sometimes he doesn't close out, and sometimes he doesn't fight through the pick, but advanced stats and even my personal "eye test" have him ranked at the top.
I'm honestly shocked at the amount of people who complain that Rondo doesn't stop dribble penetration. We all remember that Rondo is point guard and defends other point guards? Their job is to be able to penetrate any defense. The main job of a point guard on defense is to wreak havoc at the top with help defense and make sure he doesn't funnel an offensive player to his strong side or the weak side of our defense. There is barely such a thing as stopping a point guard's dribble penetration in the NBA without proper help and rotations, which Rondo is smarter than almost anyone at doing.
If the fact that Rondo is a flawed and seemingly inconsistent defender makes it difficult to accept that he's the "best defender" at his position, I think it says more about the role that point guards have defensively at this point in time.
The league so heavily favors quick, athletic ballhandlers, that the best a defender at that position can do is try to gamble and get steals by jumping out in passing lanes and playing as risky as they can without being an outright sieve as far as allowing dribble penetration is concerned.
When I watch Rondo it's not often that I think, wow, he's dominating on defense, the same way I might feel that a great center such as Gasol, Howard, Asik, Noah, or Hibbert dominate on that end. But I can't say that any other point guards come to mind that have a more noticeable impact on defense, unless you want to count Avery Bradley as a point guard.
I don't think you'd get much argument against the theory that good defensive bigs have a bigger defensive impact on a game than good defensive guards.
That doesn't make having good defensive guards irrelevant, though.
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Avery Bradley. But of the other top 5-10 point guards, Rondo, Conley and Paul in that order.
If you look at Bradley's synergy numbers, though, they got considerably worse as the season progressed because he had to play more minutes and had more responsibilities on offense. He's a great defender, but it's easier to do what he does when you're playing 20 minutes a game.
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I think Paul is better, but they are close enough together you could reasonably argue either.
Paul and Rondo play differently on defense. Paul's more of a "stick with your guy" defender while Rondo creates more havoc for opposing offenses by doing more than just defending his guy.
Is this your way of saying nicely that Rondo chooses to gamble and lose sight of his man much of the time?! Drifts away from his player trying to steal the ball in passing lanes while his guy moves to an open 3 or other spot and ends up with an uncontested shot?!
Rondo's 1-2 passes that he steals this way never result in enough positives to outweigh the 5-6 extra wide open shots his man gets (or the players man who had to rotate to try and cover his behind). He has the physical tools to be the best in the league at it, just not the patience or effort anymore.
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I think Paul is better, but they are close enough together you could reasonably argue either.
Paul and Rondo play differently on defense. Paul's more of a "stick with your guy" defender while Rondo creates more havoc for opposing offenses by doing more than just defending his guy.
Is this your way of saying nicely that Rondo chooses to gamble and lose sight of his man much of the time?! Drifts away from his player trying to steal the ball in passing lanes while his guy moves to an open 3 or other spot and ends up with an uncontested shot?!
Rondo's 1-2 passes that he steals this way never result in enough positives to outweigh the 5-6 extra wide open shots his man gets (or the players man who had to rotate to try and cover his behind). He has the physical tools to be the best in the league at it, just not the patience or effort anymore.
You need to understand that when Rondo helps off his man on the weak side, frequently the contributions that he makes are much bigger than just the 1.9 steals he gets per game. He is able to disrupt the flow of the offense, cut off passing lanes, and make it more difficult for the opposing offense to run their plays.
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I think Paul is better, but they are close enough together you could reasonably argue either.
Paul and Rondo play differently on defense. Paul's more of a "stick with your guy" defender while Rondo creates more havoc for opposing offenses by doing more than just defending his guy.
Is this your way of saying nicely that Rondo chooses to gamble and lose sight of his man much of the time?! Drifts away from his player trying to steal the ball in passing lanes while his guy moves to an open 3 or other spot and ends up with an uncontested shot?!
Maybe it's my way of saying nicely that there are other things involved in defense other than simply how close you stay to your man. People here see defenders stray from Rondo and realize it's a defensive strategy. People see Rondo stray from his man when he doesn't have the ball and it never enters their brain that it could also be a defensive strategy. Many of them have read enough posts about that that they actually think that Rondo's the only player in the league that teams defend like that, and many of them (apparently) assume that the Celts have never attempted to defend in the same manner that every other team in the league does.
To your specific point, though, the average pg takes 3.5 threes per 40 minutes and hits 36% of them. Against Rondo it's 3.1 threes per 40 minutes and they hit 33% of them. So they take fewer threes than average against Rondo and also make fewer of them than average. Either what you're talking about happens less often than you think or it happens to everyone else a lot more than you realize.
Rondo's 1-2 passes that he steals this way never result in enough positives to outweigh the 5-6 extra wide open shots his man gets (or the players man who had to rotate to try and cover his behind). He has the physical tools to be the best in the league at it, just not the patience or effort anymore.
It's not just the passes that he steals. It's also the passes that aren't made because he hedges towards the intended target. It's the players that don't get into the lane because he cuts off their lane. As I mentioned earlier, those "5-6 extra wide open shots" don't really occur, and I doubt you'll find that opposing players get many assists against him. Point guards generally average fewer assists against him than against almost any other pg in the league.
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Like most people, I have a few eye test Go-To players when it comes to position based skills. Jordan for wing scoring, Shaq for dominant big man play, and so on.
My go-to for "great" PG defense is Gary Payton.
Rondo's not a sieve, but he's no Glove, either.
(obviously, they played under vastly different defensive rule sets, so it's not a perfect system.)
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Feel like numbers re: PGs defensive abilities/rankings are very susceptible to influence by team defense, as a whole... especially by who is protecting the paint. Some of these numbers seem inflated. Tony Parker looks to be a pretty weak defender to me...
Paul is no doubt elite. Westbrook is a beast too - I think I'd prefer him over any one else right now. And seeing Jarrett Jack on that list makes me like him even more than I already did.
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Feel like numbers re: PGs defensive abilities/rankings are very susceptible to influence by team defense, as a whole... especially by who is protecting the paint. Some of these numbers seem inflated. Tony Parker looks to be a pretty weak defender to me...
Paul is no doubt elite. Westbrook is a beast too - I think I'd prefer him over any one else right now. And seeing Jarrett Jack on that list makes me like him even more than I already did.
Agreed. I was surprised to see Rose that high as well, but I guess he has gotten better at defense in Thib's system.
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I think the real point is that while Rondo can improve in areas of his defense, it doesn't make him a worse defending PG relative to his competition. Just because he is the best or one of the best defending PGs doesn't mean he is a perfect defender. Sometimes he is lazy, sometimes he doesn't close out, and sometimes he doesn't fight through the pick, but advanced stats and even my personal "eye test" have him ranked at the top.
I'm honestly shocked at the amount of people who complain that Rondo doesn't stop dribble penetration. We all remember that Rondo is point guard and defends other point guards? Their job is to be able to penetrate any defense. The main job of a point guard on defense is to wreak havoc at the top with help defense and make sure he doesn't funnel an offensive player to his strong side or the weak side of our defense. There is barely such a thing as stopping a point guard's dribble penetration in the NBA without proper help and rotations, which Rondo is smarter than almost anyone at doing.
If the fact that Rondo is a flawed and seemingly inconsistent defender makes it difficult to accept that he's the "best defender" at his position, I think it says more about the role that point guards have defensively at this point in time.
The league so heavily favors quick, athletic ballhandlers, that the best a defender at that position can do is try to gamble and get steals by jumping out in passing lanes and playing as risky as they can without being an outright sieve as far as allowing dribble penetration is concerned.
When I watch Rondo it's not often that I think, wow, he's dominating on defense, the same way I might feel that a great center such as Gasol, Howard, Asik, Noah, or Hibbert dominate on that end. But I can't say that any other point guards come to mind that have a more noticeable impact on defense, unless you want to count Avery Bradley as a point guard.
I don't think you'd get much argument against the theory that good defensive bigs have a bigger defensive impact on a game than good defensive guards.
That doesn't make having good defensive guards irrelevant, though.
Certainly not irrelevant.
But a team with a great defensive backcourt and a terrible defensive frontcourt will still be a pretty mediocre defensive team.
Flip that around, and the team with the great defensive frontcourt is gonna be pretty darn good defensively.
Having guards who are above average at defense is a luxury, in my opinion. I wouldn't make it a priority if I were building a team.
On the other hand, having at least one elite defensive big man and at least one versatile, athletic wing defender with size and length would be of the utmost importance.