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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: EJPLAYA on July 18, 2013, 01:22:29 PM

Title: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: EJPLAYA on July 18, 2013, 01:22:29 PM
I have been a proponent of tanking in order to try and secure Wiggins or Parker. I think that they, especially Wiggins, give us the best opportunity to win future championships. That being said, there is no way on earth that this roster can lose enough to be in the bottom couple of teams this upcoming season.

Rondo
Bradley/Lee/Brooks
Green/Wallace
Bass/Humphries/Sullinger
Olynyk

Clearly we have a big hole at the Center spot as Olynyk is much more likely to be effective at the PF spot, but even with him playing Center, this isn't a "worst in the league" talent roster. This is probably a 30-35 win team. Considering there will be one or two of the "rest of the guys" that have a decent year and we are flirting with an 8th seed most of the season. That will result in us being mediocre for another long stretch.

You will see whether or not DA is serious about not tanking if Rondo and Green are on the roster. If Rondo gets traded, then it was lip service. If both, then we are truly in full on tank mode. Without them both, this team is a 15 win team.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: fantankerous on July 18, 2013, 01:37:43 PM
As constructed, we're a 20-25 win team.  We have a very unbalanced roster with major holes and key pieces in their development phase.  In addition to the talent deficit and poor fit of the roster, there are the inevitable interregnum problems that will accompany a transition as radical as we face this upcoming season.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: syfy9 on July 18, 2013, 01:42:54 PM
As constructed, we're a 20-25 win team.  We have a very unbalanced roster with major holes and key pieces in their development phase.  In addition to the talent deficit and poor fit of the roster, there are the inevitable interregnum problems that will accompany a transition as radical as we face this upcoming season.

Last year's Bobcats won 21 games. Are you saying that we are going to be as bad as them?

Rondo is more valuable than their entire starting 5! And Green would be their best player if he was on that team.


I agree with OP. 30-35 wins is a good projection. Not horrible, but not good either.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: lightspeed5 on July 18, 2013, 01:45:07 PM
As constructed, we're a 20-25 win team.  We have a very unbalanced roster with major holes and key pieces in their development phase.  In addition to the talent deficit and poor fit of the roster, there are the inevitable interregnum problems that will accompany a transition as radical as we face this upcoming season.

Last year's Bobcats won 21 games. Are you saying that we are going to be as bad as them?

Rondo is more valuable than their entire starting 5! And Green would be their best player if he was on that team.


I agree with OP. 30-35 wins is a good projection. Not horrible, but not good either.
so you think losing KG, Pierce, Terry, Barbosa, and Doc will only drop us down 6 wins?
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: LooseCannon on July 18, 2013, 01:50:31 PM
I think the tanking decision will come when the Celtics are looking like a late lottery team that has a chance to make the playoffs and it becomes a question of making a playoff push vs selling off useful veterans for assets towards the deadline and slipping into the bottom ten with a better shot of getting lucky in the lottery.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Atzar on July 18, 2013, 01:54:55 PM
As constructed, we're a 20-25 win team.  We have a very unbalanced roster with major holes and key pieces in their development phase.  In addition to the talent deficit and poor fit of the roster, there are the inevitable interregnum problems that will accompany a transition as radical as we face this upcoming season.

Last year's Bobcats won 21 games. Are you saying that we are going to be as bad as them?

Rondo is more valuable than their entire starting 5! And Green would be their best player if he was on that team.


I agree with OP. 30-35 wins is a good projection. Not horrible, but not good either.
so you think losing KG, Pierce, Terry, Barbosa, and Doc will only drop us down 6 wins?

Given that we added Wallace and Humphries and are getting Rondo and Sullinger back, yes. 
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: moiso on July 18, 2013, 01:57:47 PM
I think we can tank with Green.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: gar on July 18, 2013, 01:58:54 PM
That is why we are not tanking we are the Boston Celtics
Get over it - only losers tank.

Why trade away the only two players you have any hope of building around.

Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: lightspeed5 on July 18, 2013, 02:15:18 PM
That is why we are not tanking we are the Boston Celtics
Get over it - only losers tank.

Why trade away the only two players you have any hope of building around.
Then I guess we were losers in 2007, and OKC were losers too...

oh wait, I'd rather be OKC than be in NBA purgatory.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on July 19, 2013, 07:43:53 AM
I think we can tank with Green.

but of course, Green is not scoring 50 points a night and our defense will be giving up 100 points a night plenty without KG down low. Even with sully and Olynyk we can still tank. Maybe even with rondo also. We do not have the overall offense to outscore teams. yet.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: PhoSita on July 19, 2013, 07:47:26 AM
Green isn't going to carry the team to many wins.

We'll see how effective Rondo is at carrying a team in the regular season.  He's never done it before with any consistency.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: masteremile123 on July 19, 2013, 08:25:44 AM
As constructed, we're a 20-25 win team.  We have a very unbalanced roster with major holes and key pieces in their development phase.  In addition to the talent deficit and poor fit of the roster, there are the inevitable interregnum problems that will accompany a transition as radical as we face this upcoming season.

Last year's Bobcats won 21 games. Are you saying that we are going to be as bad as them?

Rondo is more valuable than their entire starting 5! And Green would be their best player if he was on that team.


I agree with OP. 30-35 wins is a good projection. Not horrible, but not good either.
so you think losing KG, Pierce, Terry, Barbosa, and Doc will only drop us down 6 wins?

I agree , with kg and pierce we were one of the worst offenses in the league , and without kg we were one of the worst on defense.
Idc how much talent Rondo and Green have they are not going to carry the offense , and certainly no one on the team can carry the defense. Plus who is going to close games ? We are a bottom feeder next year.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: BballTim on July 19, 2013, 08:48:22 AM
Green isn't going to carry the team to many wins.

We'll see how effective Rondo is at carrying a team in the regular season.  He's never done it before with any consistency.

  We haven't been *that* bad the past few years...

  Just out of curiosity, is how well a team performs when you surround a top player with a weak cast the typical way that you judge how well a player's able to carry a team? If the team performs poorly this year we'll see tons of posts claiming that it's proof Rondo can't carry a team, and about 99% of the people who say that would quickly defend the lack of success that some other star players have by pointing to weak supporting casts.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: manl_lui on July 19, 2013, 09:04:27 AM
Yes, we cannot tank with Rondo and Green together on the team, but that doesn't we have to trade him. Rondo is coming back from an ACL injury. Either have him wait the season out, or bring him back in Dec. - January.

Have Green and Bradley develop during that time. While I love to draft a future superstar, I rather not do it in the expense of Rondo. You still need to build around stars!
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: LilRip on July 19, 2013, 09:12:17 AM
Yeah, we don't have to trade rondo to tank. The way the roster is currently constructed, we're probably good for 5th worst record in the league. Rondo is a good player, but he's not about to will a very unbalanced roster to the playoffs. We have all the glue guys a lot of teams would love to have. Unfortunately, we don't have much to glue together.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Roy H. on July 19, 2013, 09:19:36 AM
Rondo will win us some games.  I'm not sure that Jeff Green will have a major impact on the win / loss column.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: connor on July 19, 2013, 09:21:38 AM
Why do people keep acting like we need to decide to trade Rondo or Green NOW? We don't. We're not going anywhere so we can take our time and see what happens.Teams that are interested in Rondo will still be interested in him between now and the deadline.

What I'd like to see the Celtics do is to hold Rondo our for a minimum of 10 games. Even if he is ready to come back to start the season, we should hold him out that long to get relatively good look at our roster without Rondo.

Then we ease Rondo back with limited minutes for another 10 games and finally we let Rondo run out there full strength/minutes for another 10.

Thats 30 games into the season and we'll have gotten a chance to evaluate our team with and without Rondo, but equally as important we can evaluate the landscape of the league at that point. There are a lot of lottery teams that I think could be significantly improved (CHA, ORL, SAC, NO, CLE, WAS, POR).
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Evantime34 on July 19, 2013, 09:24:17 AM
Rondo will win us some games.  I'm not sure that Jeff Green will have a major impact on the win / loss column.
According to the Win shares metric Jeff Green was good for 4.7 wins last year, and that was with him not doing much in the first half of the season. Our best player (Paul Pierce) last year accounted for 7.2 wins by this metric. I expect Green to be good for about 5.5-6 wins next year which shouldn't swing the needle to far in either direction.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: BleedGreen1989 on July 19, 2013, 09:44:13 AM
I think the tanking decision will come when the Celtics are looking like a late lottery team that has a chance to make the playoffs and it becomes a question of making a playoff push vs selling off useful veterans for assets towards the deadline and slipping into the bottom ten with a better shot of getting lucky in the lottery.

This.

Too soon to tell what the heck the FO is thinking
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: PhoSita on July 19, 2013, 09:51:45 AM
Green isn't going to carry the team to many wins.

We'll see how effective Rondo is at carrying a team in the regular season.  He's never done it before with any consistency.

  We haven't been *that* bad the past few years...

  Just out of curiosity, is how well a team performs when you surround a top player with a weak cast the typical way that you judge how well a player's able to carry a team? If the team performs poorly this year we'll see tons of posts claiming that it's proof Rondo can't carry a team, and about 99% of the people who say that would quickly defend the lack of success that some other star players have by pointing to weak supporting casts.

We haven't been bad at all the past couple of years -- though last season we were mediocre.

I attribute the majority of our (regular season) success to Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett, though.

It's hard to argue with the fact that the team had a better record without Rondo last year than with him.


To answer your question re: carrying, yes, that kind of is how I judge it.

To be clear, if indeed Rondo is unable to "carry" a team with a weak supporting cast, that doesn't mean he's a bad player.  It just means that his skillset makes him best suited to being a key piece on a team with talent already in place.

I think you could come up with examples of players with similar talent who nonetheless would be easier to build around.  Joakim Noah or Roy Hibbert are good examples, I think.  Among guards, I'd point to players like Damian Lillard or Ty Lawson.  None of those guys I mentioned are necessarily better (regular season) players than Rondo, and Rondo has been more dominant in the post-season (though Hibbert was pretty great against Miami). 

I could think of team compositions in which I'd definitely prefer to have Rondo over any of those players.  But for the team we have now, I think we'd probably win more games with those guys.

Of course, when I say "build around," I mean trying to win games in the regular season.  I don't actually think any of those guys is a franchise player that could be the best guy on a contender.  But I don't think that of Rondo, either.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Cman on July 19, 2013, 09:53:11 AM
I have been a proponent of tanking in order to try and secure Wiggins or Parker. I think that they, especially Wiggins, give us the best opportunity to win future championships. That being said, there is no way on earth that this roster can lose enough to be in the bottom couple of teams this upcoming season.

Rondo
Bradley/Lee/Brooks
Green/Wallace
Bass/Humphries/Sullinger
Olynyk

Clearly we have a big hole at the Center spot as Olynyk is much more likely to be effective at the PF spot, but even with him playing Center, this isn't a "worst in the league" talent roster. This is probably a 30-35 win team. Considering there will be one or two of the "rest of the guys" that have a decent year and we are flirting with an 8th seed most of the season. That will result in us being mediocre for another long stretch.

You will see whether or not DA is serious about not tanking if Rondo and Green are on the roster. If Rondo gets traded, then it was lip service. If both, then we are truly in full on tank mode. Without them both, this team is a 15 win team.

Depends on what you get back by trading them.
In any case, "Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank" .... I'm fine with that.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: PhoSita on July 19, 2013, 09:54:20 AM
Rondo will win us some games.  I'm not sure that Jeff Green will have a major impact on the win / loss column.
According to the Win shares metric Jeff Green was good for 4.7 wins last year, and that was with him not doing much in the first half of the season. Our best player (Paul Pierce) last year accounted for 7.2 wins by this metric. I expect Green to be good for about 5.5-6 wins next year which shouldn't swing the needle to far in either direction.

I think the thing to look at with Win Shares is how the season total compares with other players at his position.

Jeff will have a decent number of win shares next year, but will it be many more than an average player at his position?

Matt Barnes had 6.3 Win Shares last season.  Jared Dudley had 4.8.  Chandler Parsons had 7.  Vince Carter had 6.  Shawn Marion had 5.3
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: celticsfan8591 on July 19, 2013, 10:05:11 AM
Teams I see being clearly worse than us: Charlotte, Utah, Philly, Phoenix, Sacramento
Teams that may be worse: Orlando, Portland (if they trade Aldridge), Milwaukee (if they lose Jennings), Dallas (if Dirk gets injured or declines, they have little else)

Now that's assuming that Rondo comes back quickly and at full strength. If he misses a good chunk of the season, we could end up behind (or ahead of, depending on how you look at it), Phoenix, Sacramento, and maybe Charlotte.  Without Rondo and Green for the entire season, we'd be in the discussion for worst team in the league, but Philly is also really bad and Utah is too (and plays in the West).

So by doing nothing (and "making sure Rondo's 100% healed"), we have at best a 15.6% chance of winning the lottery (if we finish with the third worst record). By getting rid of Rondo and Green, we might have the worst record, but that only gets us a 25% chance at winning.  I'm not against trading Rondo if we get a young stud and/or a bunch of draft picks back, but just dumping him to improve our odds at the number one pick doesn't make sense to me when a.) it doesn't improve our odds THAT much and b.) there are several potential stars in the draft and we could get one with a top 7 pick without sacrificing Rondo. 
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: RJ87 on July 19, 2013, 10:21:43 AM
This is why I don't think we're bonafide tanking.

I think this season is more about evaluating than anything, there's so many question marks and unknowns on this roster: can Rondo be a leader? Can Jeff be a consistent factor now that he's starting at his natural SF position full time? Is Avery a starter or a 6th man? What do we have in Sully and Olynyk? Is Brad Stevens an NBA caliber coach?

The answers to those questions will show how far away from contention we are - I think management and ownership want to make this process as quick as possible and if they can avoid a full blown tank job that'll last 5+ years, they will.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: nostar on July 19, 2013, 12:29:31 PM
I disagree with the OP in a big way.

Last season the worst team in the NBA was the Orlando Magic and they got the 2nd pick. The 1st pick went to the Cavs with a record of 24-58. Here are some comparisons:

Cav's were without Irving for 23 games. When he did come back his minutes were limited. I expect this to be better or equal to what we'll see from Rondo's recovery. That is, I expect him to miss more than 23 games.

The Cavs had a pretty mediocre team outside of Irving last year. However, Waiters is a good player that you could compare to Green as far as his #s and minutes.

Thompson had a great season averaging close to 12/10. This is what I expect from Sully/KO. If they split minutes probably 7/7 from each. If they play along side each other probably 8/6 each.

We're going to trade Humphries. I'd hope that we could do it in the preseason but who knows. I'd put money on him being gone by the deadline though. $12M expiring is nothing to waste. Ditto for Bogans. I expect Danny to take on another bad contract or two this year. If he's really on top of it he'll move Hump and Bogans for a larger worse contract and at least once 1st rounder.

Wallace I expect to be waived via the stretch provision.

Bass/AB/Brooks/Melo etc won't contribute a ton to us winning or losing.

Ok now let's take the #3 picking team, the Washington Wizards.

John Wall played in 49 games, or 60% of the season. This is about what I expect from Rondo. He averaged 18/8/4 in 33 mpg. Also what I expect from Rondo.

Beal was their second best player last season and his #s are almost exactly Jeff Green's. It's eerie.

Then Nene, 12/7. KO is probably going to have these #s if he gets the minutes.

Okafor got 10/9. That's Sully.

Ariza was actually better than AB but they play similar roles. Hustle guys who can defend really well and score when they get a good opportunity.

What I'm getting at is that we're a lotto team. Not as bad as Orlando was (and will be) but still very bad. The teams in the east that will rival us for the worst are Charlotte, Philly, Atlanta and Orlando. Phoenix and Utah out west (maybe LAL too). I expect a top-10 pick and I suspect a top-5 pick. Anything in the top-10 will be valuable in trades and top-5 is worth one failed season for sure.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: dark_lord on July 19, 2013, 12:32:42 PM
i dont want to tank
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: McNoob on July 19, 2013, 02:52:19 PM
The last time the C's tanked, it was the Oden-Durant sweepstakes and they would have either got stuck with Jeff Green or Yi Jianlian (had they not traded the pick for Ray Allen).

Tanking doesn't guarantee anything when the lottery exists.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: 2short on July 19, 2013, 03:19:34 PM
I don't think we are going to be that far off last years record.  No KG hurts, new coach I think will help.  We got 3 vet scrappers, 2 of whom are playing to show they haven't lost it, humphries/wallace.  Sully is going to be pretty big this year.  Green I think as well.
x factor bradley, if he can stay healthy and put his whole game together that is the best defensive backcourt in the nba

stevens can install tommy ball we don't really need a true low post center!

bartender another green shot!
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: tenn_smoothie on July 19, 2013, 03:42:07 PM
I think we can tank with Green.

beautiful - just give Green as many minutes as possible and we'll be on our way to the lottery without appearing to tank. Jeff Green - our secret weapon.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: rjb182 on July 19, 2013, 03:47:59 PM
I still see this as a process of weeding the chaff out from your roster rather than "tanking" per se, but look...

Rondo doesn't stop you from tanking because if you REALLY want to lose games, you hold him out. Still, healthy, maybe he makes this team five games better than his replacement. So, yeah, we could win 30 or so with him if we want to.

As for Green... I wish him well, but he strikes me as a consummate "top player on a bad team" guy. That is, he might score 20 ppg, but if he does, all that means is, you're giving a lot of shots to a guy who isn't any better than Jeff Green.

You can lose 50-60 games with him, easy.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on July 19, 2013, 03:53:11 PM
Why do we need to tank?

First of all there's no guarantee that we can win the lottery even if we have a bad record (ask the Bobcats).

There's also no guarantee that Wiggins and Parker are the next great superstars. Remember Harrison Barnes, LeBryan Nash and Shabazz Muhammad? They have the same hype as these two coming out of high school and they got exposed in college. Not saying Parker and Wiggins will be the same but can't we wait and see first if they are worth the hype? Are we even sure that they are coming out? I mean, Marcus Smart is a top 5 projected and stayed didn't he? Cauley-Stein also has some lottery hype and he stayed.

We don't need to tank to compete in the future. We have two 1st rounders in a supposed loaded draft this year. We may not land a superstar, but we can land TWO solid players if this draft is a good as it is advertised. Outside of the the hyped names, we still don't know if there are other college players who will stand out next season (like Olynyk). Assuming that the hyped freshmen comes out, there are still high potential talents left in this draft that could help franchises. Guys who may not be superstar but has the talent and skills to be starter quality.

Tanking is no guarantee to land a franchise level talent. But it's a definite guarantee that it will hinder any sort of player development, players we already have that we could have showcase and show the world that can play. Players who then we can trade along with our picks to acquire this Superstar we want.

I don't mind losing, we don't have a great roster to compete anyway even with Rondo and Green. But we need to try and compete. It builds character, it develops the talent we have and build a strong chemistry among teammates and coaches.

On purposely trying to suck though? That's a great moral lesson to teach your young players. "You're not good enough so don't try hard and let's hope we get the CHANCE of landing the superstar that will lead you guys."

Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: EJPLAYA on July 19, 2013, 04:56:57 PM
This isn't the 1980's fellas where a deep draft meant that any pick in the first round had a very good chance at being a starter or better. At BEST there are going to be 10 guys in a deep draft that are going to be starter level players or better. That doesn't mean it will be the first 10, however your chances of getting a star past the first 3-4 spots is not real likely anymore with the one and done college attendance. Having two mid-late first round picks likely means you are going to end up with two bench players.

I am not saying that the answer is 100 percent we need to tank. I am saying I think the odds are better if next season we get a top 5 pick. Realistically only Wiggins and Parker are players IMO that are can't miss players. What I am saying is that if Rondo and Green are both on the roster, we are likely picking outside the top 10, but almost certainly outside the top 5. (Unless the ping pong balls fall our way like the Spurs with Duncan) You will know what Danny thinks based on them playing next season.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: lightspeed5 on July 19, 2013, 05:00:37 PM
This isn't the 1980's fellas where a deep draft meant that any pick in the first round had a very good chance at being a starter or better. At BEST there are going to be 10 guys in a deep draft that are going to be starter level players or better. That doesn't mean it will be the first 10, however your chances of getting a star past the first 3-4 spots is not real likely anymore with the one and done college attendance. Having two mid-late first round picks likely means you are going to end up with two bench players.

I am not saying that the answer is 100 percent we need to tank. I am saying I think the odds are better if next season we get a top 5 pick. Realistically only Wiggins and Parker are players IMO that are can't miss players. What I am saying is that if Rondo and Green are both on the roster, we are likely picking outside the top 10, but almost certainly outside the top 5. (Unless the ping pong balls fall our way like the Spurs with Duncan) You will know what Danny thinks based on them playing next season.
TP. People around here still think you can pick up Larry Bird Jr. at pick 16.

however, i think with a gimp rondo and green we can still tank.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: BballTim on July 19, 2013, 05:18:31 PM
This isn't the 1980's fellas where a deep draft meant that any pick in the first round had a very good chance at being a starter or better. At BEST there are going to be 10 guys in a deep draft that are going to be starter level players or better. That doesn't mean it will be the first 10, however your chances of getting a star past the first 3-4 spots is not real likely anymore with the one and done college attendance. Having two mid-late first round picks likely means you are going to end up with two bench players.

I am not saying that the answer is 100 percent we need to tank. I am saying I think the odds are better if next season we get a top 5 pick. Realistically only Wiggins and Parker are players IMO that are can't miss players. What I am saying is that if Rondo and Green are both on the roster, we are likely picking outside the top 10, but almost certainly outside the top 5. (Unless the ping pong balls fall our way like the Spurs with Duncan) You will know what Danny thinks based on them playing next season.
TP. People around here still think you can pick up Larry Bird Jr. at pick 16.

  Other people think that if we have a bad record this year we'll be rewarded with a LeBron clone.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: relja on July 19, 2013, 06:32:29 PM
How about trying to win as many games as possible and maybe, just maybe make the playoff because we have an okay core and we are the Boston Celtics? If you want to tank so badly and trade our 2 stars, become a Bobcats fan.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: EJPLAYA on July 19, 2013, 10:19:28 PM
How about trying to win as many games as possible and maybe, just maybe make the playoff because we have an okay core and we are the Boston Celtics? If you want to tank so badly and trade our 2 stars, become a Bobcats fan.

There is a difference between throwing together a team with mediocre talent that at its very best might make the playoffs, but has absolutely no possibility of ever having pieces that would be part of a championship team, and getting rid of the best of that group for chips that could net you true cornerstone franchise changing players. I am not a proponent of going out there and intentionally trying to lose games. I AM however a proponent of adding chips with a Rondo trade and possibly green and seeing which of these young pieces have a shot at being true pieces to a winner.

What you are proposing then is rushing Rondo back sooner than needed, playing AB, Lee, Wallace, Bass/Humphries, and trying to win as many games as possible. Those are the best players on this squad. That is what you'd have to do in order to win as much as possible.

I'd like instead to trade Rondo for another 1st rounder plus a legitimate 2 that is actually the size of a 2. Play Sullinger, Olynyk, Brooks, Pressey, and Green enough to see if they can be a piece to the puzzle. By the time we are actually contenders, Rondo will be at the end of his deal and most likely on another squad anyway. I don't envision Rondo still being here when we are truly back in contention, so we might as well get something for him that can be. With those players, we THEN try as hard as we can to win. Playing the other group will result in barely missing the playoffs, and forever limbo.

I think people forget that if we had done it your way, we never would have gotten Larry...
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: GreenEnvy on July 19, 2013, 11:20:18 PM
How about trying to win as many games as possible and maybe, just maybe make the playoff because we have an okay core and we are the Boston Celtics? If you want to tank so badly and trade our 2 stars, become a Bobcats fan.

So you would prefer a replay of the 2003-04 season (won 36 games, squeezed into playoffs, and got embarrassed) over the 2006-07 season (had a terrible season resulting in the 5th pick that ultimately landed us an MVP candidate)?

If we get the 5th pick in next year's loaded draft, you really don't think we could flip that and some assets/expirings for another great player (such as DMC, Aldridge, Love, etc)? And if we have Rondo, Green, and another great player, I believe we may still have enough money (depending on how much salary we send out/take on in the draft pick trade) to sign a max free agent (or one close to max). That means the pick could ultimately land us two all-stars, much like 2007 did.

The key back then was landing the draft pick, and the same holds true next year. A top-5 pick changes this franchise one way or or another.

Barely making the playoffs and getting the 15th pick sets our team back even further. Forget about pride right now, we need better players and a loaded draft awaits us next year. We probably still don't have Banner 17 if Pierce doesn't get hurt and the wheels fall off and we squeak into playoffs in 2007. I'm a diehard Celtics fan but I could not want to see them in the playoffs any less than I do next year.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: LooseCannon on July 19, 2013, 11:54:02 PM
Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: gpap on July 19, 2013, 11:59:06 PM
I agree with the OP. I am not saying Rondo and Jeff Green are Lebron and Durant.

But, in a lackluster Eastern Conference, believe it or not Rondo/Jeff Green could get you to the 8th seed.

Hell, Milwaukee was last year's 8th seed and they had a losing record.

I think if we rolled with the team as constituted, we are a 35 win basketball team (possibly a 40 win team if we pick up a decent center...ie Asik, Perk, etc.)

If you look at the roster, even though it's rather uneven and unbalanced (a ton of SGs and PFs, but no C), it just isn't bad enough to be a lottery team.

Philly, Orlando, Toronto, Utah, Phoenix are all worse than us and the jury is still out on teams like Denver, Minnesota, Cleveland, Sacramento, Washington and even Detroit for that matter.

That's why IF the goal is to tank, then a trade with Detroit involving Rondo makes too much sense.

If the goal isn't to tank, then I think Rondo and Green are likely still on the team.

Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: GreenEnvy on July 20, 2013, 12:59:14 AM
Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.

Did Pierce look like crap in 2007? What about Al Jefferson? Delonte? TA? Rondo?

The fact is that in the last 30 Finals, only 3 teams made it without a top 14 pick as their first- or second-best player. The 1999 Knicks and the 2004 and 2005 Pistons. 57 out of 60 needed the lottery (or equivalent in Drexler and '92 Blazers case) to get the player that would lead them atop their Conference.

Unless you think Kelly Olynyk will become a star (as he is the only lottery pick on our team) and lead us into the Finals, odds are we will most certainly need the lottery.


Do people really think hovering around .500 for a few years and all of a sudden you are going to become a contender? 95% of Finalists since the draft has used a lottery system have drafted their star in the top 14, the majority of those are in the top 5. But the Celtics do not need to? Please.

The funniest part is there is a potentially historic draft class staring us in the face next year.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: LooseCannon on July 20, 2013, 01:13:28 AM
Do people really think hovering around .500 for a few years and all of a sudden you are going to become a contender? 95% of Finalists since the draft has used a lottery system have drafted their star in the top 14, the majority of those are in the top 5. But the Celtics do not need to? Please.

If the Celtics absolutely needed to draft their star in the top 14, then that number would be 100% of finalists, not 95%.

Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: LilRip on July 20, 2013, 02:15:05 AM
Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.

Did Pierce look like crap in 2007? What about Al Jefferson? Delonte? TA? Rondo?


Exactly. I remember many people being upset that Big Al was traded for KG. Rondo hadn't done anything significant yet but many were already excited for him. and TA, well, I was a fan of TA and he was performing quite well. If only that deadball dunk-fail injury didn't happen.

Losing doesn't mean the young players look bad. They just won't win because they're young, inexperienced players who have room to grow.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: LarBrd33 on July 20, 2013, 02:52:18 AM
Fully healthy this team will struggle to even play .500 basketball.  They had KG and Pierce on this team last year and only won 41 games. 

It will be hard to completely bottom out if Rondo and Green are playing at a high level, but we should have no trouble toiling away in the lotto.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: GreenEnvy on July 20, 2013, 03:19:14 AM
Do people really think hovering around .500 for a few years and all of a sudden you are going to become a contender? 95% of Finalists since the draft has used a lottery system have drafted their star in the top 14, the majority of those are in the top 5. But the Celtics do not need to? Please.

If the Celtics absolutely needed to draft their star in the top 14, then that number would be 100% of finalists, not 95%.

I like 19 out of 20 odds. You either like long shots or are grasping.

Do they absolutely need to? Of course not. They will just join 27 other teams watching the Finals on television for the next decade.

They are not turning into a contender without not only a lotto pick, but getting the pick right. This draft, there seems to be so much talent at the top that there is wiggle room that DA doesn't have to nail it to get a great player.

The worse the draft (and the worse the pick... Like those Brooklyn ones are bound to be), the more you need to do a little less Fab Melo and JJJ and a lot more Rondo and TA.

Sometimes Ainge hits. Sometimes he misses. I have no doubt we walk away with legit talent if we secure a top 5 (maybe even top 8) pick in the 2014 draft. All bets are off after that.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: BASS_THUMPER on July 20, 2013, 03:30:25 AM
maybe because i have been a fan a lot longer than most of you..and im sure that many here have been fans before me..but for ME..after the Bird era..we struggled..and that was fine because along the way it was glimpses of hope..im a huge Dino Radja fan..Rick Fox is someone i thought would be around for a long time.

in Other Words like Frank..i see tanking as a sign of weakness and if i lived in Boston i wouldnt want to pay my hard earned dolla to see my favorite team lose on purpose..if this team wants to tank in the right way?..sign me up as starting point for 5mil a year..man this team would go down like the Titanic.

but i cant call it..
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: bfrombleacher on July 20, 2013, 03:31:17 AM
Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.

Did Pierce look like crap in 2007? What about Al Jefferson? Delonte? TA? Rondo?


Exactly. I remember many people being upset that Big Al was traded for KG. Rondo hadn't done anything significant yet but many were already excited for him. and TA, well, I was a fan of TA and he was performing quite well. If only that deadball dunk-fail injury didn't happen.

Losing doesn't mean the young players look bad. They just won't win because they're young, inexperienced players who have room to grow.

Rondo hadn't done anything significant :(

Now we're comparing Rondo to Al Jefferson?

What has CP3 done? Where do people draw the line? Is it because CP3 has better press?
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: GreenEnvy on July 20, 2013, 03:37:28 AM
Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.

Did Pierce look like crap in 2007? What about Al Jefferson? Delonte? TA? Rondo?


Exactly. I remember many people being upset that Big Al was traded for KG. Rondo hadn't done anything significant yet but many were already excited for him. and TA, well, I was a fan of TA and he was performing quite well. If only that deadball dunk-fail injury didn't happen.

Losing doesn't mean the young players look bad. They just won't win because they're young, inexperienced players who have room to grow.

Rondo hadn't done anything significant :(

Now we're comparing Rondo to Al Jefferson?

What has CP3 done? Where do people draw the line? Is it because CP3 has better press?

He's referring to 2006-07. He had not done anything significant at that point but showed us promise.

Many "experts" thought he and Perk were the reason we couldn't win it all in 2007-08.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: BASS_THUMPER on July 20, 2013, 03:40:40 AM
Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.

Did Pierce look like crap in 2007? What about Al Jefferson? Delonte? TA? Rondo?


Exactly. I remember many people being upset that Big Al was traded for KG. Rondo hadn't done anything significant yet but many were already excited for him. and TA, well, I was a fan of TA and he was performing quite well. If only that deadball dunk-fail injury didn't happen.

Losing doesn't mean the young players look bad. They just won't win because they're young, inexperienced players who have room to grow.

Rondo hadn't done anything significant :(

Now we're comparing Rondo to Al Jefferson?

What has CP3 done? Where do people draw the line? Is it because CP3 has better press?

He's referring to 2006-07. He had not done anything significant at that point but showed us promise.

Many "experts" thought he and Perk were the reason we couldn't win it all in 2007-08.


trading Perk effected this team...Ray Charles could see this team moral was not the same as when he was here..chemistry was all jacked up

no expert needed
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: indeedproceed on July 20, 2013, 03:49:01 AM
Barely making the playoffs with a team chock full of young players who are not close to maxing out their potential, with a favorable cap situation and a nice inventory of extra draft picks for the future?

That sounds better than finishing with the 5th worst record because all those young players look like crap who shouldn't be in any team's long-term plans.

Did Pierce look like crap in 2007? What about Al Jefferson? Delonte? TA? Rondo?


Exactly. I remember many people being upset that Big Al was traded for KG. Rondo hadn't done anything significant yet but many were already excited for him. and TA, well, I was a fan of TA and he was performing quite well. If only that deadball dunk-fail injury didn't happen.

Losing doesn't mean the young players look bad. They just won't win because they're young, inexperienced players who have room to grow.

Rondo hadn't done anything significant :(

Now we're comparing Rondo to Al Jefferson?

What has CP3 done? Where do people draw the line? Is it because CP3 has better press?

He's referring to 2006-07. He had not done anything significant at that point but showed us promise.

Many "experts" thought he and Perk were the reason we couldn't win it all in 2007-08.


trading Perk effected this team...Ray Charles could see this team moral was not the same as when he was here..chemistry was all jacked up

no expert needed

I've also always believed this.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: JBcat on July 20, 2013, 09:40:30 AM
I disagree with the OP in a big way.

Last season the worst team in the NBA was the Orlando Magic and they got the 2nd pick. The 1st pick went to the Cavs with a record of 24-58. Here are some comparisons:

Cav's were without Irving for 23 games. When he did come back his minutes were limited. I expect this to be better or equal to what we'll see from Rondo's recovery. That is, I expect him to miss more than 23 games.

The Cavs had a pretty mediocre team outside of Irving last year. However, Waiters is a good player that you could compare to Green as far as his #s and minutes.

Thompson had a great season averaging close to 12/10. This is what I expect from Sully/KO. If they split minutes probably 7/7 from each. If they play along side each other probably 8/6 each.

We're going to trade Humphries. I'd hope that we could do it in the preseason but who knows. I'd put money on him being gone by the deadline though. $12M expiring is nothing to waste. Ditto for Bogans. I expect Danny to take on another bad contract or two this year. If he's really on top of it he'll move Hump and Bogans for a larger worse contract and at least once 1st rounder.

Wallace I expect to be waived via the stretch provision.

Bass/AB/Brooks/Melo etc won't contribute a ton to us winning or losing.

Ok now let's take the #3 picking team, the Washington Wizards.

John Wall played in 49 games, or 60% of the season. This is about what I expect from Rondo. He averaged 18/8/4 in 33 mpg. Also what I expect from Rondo.

Beal was their second best player last season and his #s are almost exactly Jeff Green's. It's eerie.

Then Nene, 12/7. KO is probably going to have these #s if he gets the minutes.

Okafor got 10/9. That's Sully.

Ariza was actually better than AB but they play similar roles. Hustle guys who can defend really well and score when they get a good opportunity.

What I'm getting at is that we're a lotto team. Not as bad as Orlando was (and will be) but still very bad. The teams in the east that will rival us for the worst are Charlotte, Philly, Atlanta and Orlando. Phoenix and Utah out west (maybe LAL too). I expect a top-10 pick and I suspect a top-5 pick. Anything in the top-10 will be valuable in trades and top-5 is worth one failed season for sure.

I agree with much of this however I don't see Ainge using using the stretch provision on Wallace.   It will still count against the cap a little bit, and within 2 years that contract could be very valuable.   Plus we need a backup behind Green, and who knows maybe Crash revitalizes his career little bit playing less minutes as a bench player. 

I would say at least Humphries is gone by the trade deadline as an expiring, and maybe putting out decent numbers again.   

This year could be more of a player evaluation year for Danny as we have so many unanswered questions.  How well will Rondo be playing coming back from a major surgery?  Ditto for Sully.  How will Green do for the first time being the the starting SF and most likely the number 1 scoring option?  Will Bradley take the next step after a summer not worrying about rehab?  and so on. 

Starting next offseason I could see many more trades then as you see Bass become an expiring contract, Bogans contract become unguaranteed, Bradley and Crawford restricted free agents, 2 years remaining on Lee's and Wallace's contract. Rondo will also be an expiring contract & Green will have 2 years left but his last year will be a player's option.   Also with the trade exception, and 2 draft picks, I could see several moving parts starting next summer.  Should be interesting, and I don't think we need to tank for us to have a really good offseason next year.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: gpap on July 20, 2013, 12:43:53 PM
This isn't the 1980's fellas where a deep draft meant that any pick in the first round had a very good chance at being a starter or better. At BEST there are going to be 10 guys in a deep draft that are going to be starter level players or better. That doesn't mean it will be the first 10, however your chances of getting a star past the first 3-4 spots is not real likely anymore with the one and done college attendance. Having two mid-late first round picks likely means you are going to end up with two bench players.

I am not saying that the answer is 100 percent we need to tank. I am saying I think the odds are better if next season we get a top 5 pick. Realistically only Wiggins and Parker are players IMO that are can't miss players. What I am saying is that if Rondo and Green are both on the roster, we are likely picking outside the top 10, but almost certainly outside the top 5. (Unless the ping pong balls fall our way like the Spurs with Duncan) You will know what Danny thinks based on them playing next season.

I agree with this as well. If you're going to rebuild through the draft, as might as well do it with lottery picks.

To me, a draft pick between the 15-30th pick is almost useless. There isn't as much talent coming out of college like their used to be.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: TheTruthFot18 on July 20, 2013, 01:01:12 PM
As constructed, we're a 20-25 win team.  We have a very unbalanced roster with major holes and key pieces in their development phase.  In addition to the talent deficit and poor fit of the roster, there are the inevitable interregnum problems that will accompany a transition as radical as we face this upcoming season.

That number sounds about right. Ya we'll have Green AND Rondo but that team won't score a lot and will get picked on down low (Sully can't play 48 minutes and replicate KG).
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: EJPLAYA on July 20, 2013, 01:34:57 PM
I love how everyone on this board thinks Rondo is one of the top few players in this league and a walking triple double, however can't be enough of a difference to us to have us win more than 20 games. Add Green to that who averaged 13 pts a game in only 28 minutes a game and put up 15 per in March and 17 per in April showing he was recovering and getting better as the season went, but no this team with those two guys are only going to win 20 games... LOL

That's not even mentioning Wallace and Humphries who are starter level players in this league, and Bass who is a legitimate strong bench player and borderline starter.

Wake up people! The only reason that people can kind of argue that we SHOULDN'T tank and instead find a few pieces to fit around Rondo and Green is because those two are good enough with the rest of the guys we have to actually win 30-35 games. Personally I don't see Rondo as good as many on here, or at least the guy I want to build my team around, but he is an all star level player. Same with Jeff Green once he is back completely  100%. If I thought we had a shot at signing ONE top tier free agent I'd say let's do it. We don't however, and so the draft is our only shot. That is if we can draft in the top 5...
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on July 20, 2013, 01:35:20 PM
This isn't the 1980's fellas where a deep draft meant that any pick in the first round had a very good chance at being a starter or better. At BEST there are going to be 10 guys in a deep draft that are going to be starter level players or better. That doesn't mean it will be the first 10, however your chances of getting a star past the first 3-4 spots is not real likely anymore with the one and done college attendance. Having two mid-late first round picks likely means you are going to end up with two bench players.

I am not saying that the answer is 100 percent we need to tank. I am saying I think the odds are better if next season we get a top 5 pick. Realistically only Wiggins and Parker are players IMO that are can't miss players. What I am saying is that if Rondo and Green are both on the roster, we are likely picking outside the top 10, but almost certainly outside the top 5. (Unless the ping pong balls fall our way like the Spurs with Duncan) You will know what Danny thinks based on them playing next season.

I agree with this as well. If you're going to rebuild through the draft, as might as well do it with lottery picks.

To me, a draft pick between the 15-30th pick is almost useless. There isn't as much talent coming out of college like their used to be.

I respectfully disagree.

You only build through the lottery when you start from scratch. We already have a big piece in Rondo and if he proves himself to be a very good player, we'll have another one in Green. We can rebuild by keeping those two and add another piece, don't matter if this addition would be the main cog or another large part of the puzzle.

We also have a plethora of assets in the form of picks, young players who's potential is high and an expiring contract in Kris Humphries, and to some extent Cap room. Assets we can put together in order to acquire the said piece.

And yes, agree in the sense that the last two years we're a weak draft class but remember, names like...

Marc Gasol (2nd round!)
Wilson Chandler
Carl Landry
Roy Hibbert
Ryan Anderson
Serge Ibaka
Nicolas Batum
Ty Lawson
Jrue Holiday
Larry Sanders
Avery Bradley
Greives Vasquez
Kawhi Leonard
Nikola Vicevic
Kenneth Faried

...were drafted in that 15-30 range. And while not all of them turned into franchise players, they could be a big addition as a piece or as another asset we can use to land a Superstar. (Wilson Chandler was part of a package to land Melo Anthony, remember).

You only trade for the lottery when only have one star on a big contract and your team has no support or direction moving forward you have practically nothing, like the Bobcats. Gutting the team with a solid two player foundation and assets on hand to hope for a lottery pick is WAY too risky. Let's remember here as well, not every lottery pick turned out to be great.

Derrick Williams, Evan Turner, Michael Beasley, Hasheem Thabeet we're all #2 picks who turned out not to be franchise players. And then you have names like Jonny Flynn, Yi Jianlian, JOE ALEXANDER, Jordan Hill, Wesley Johnson, Ekpe Udoh, Bismack Biyombo who are top 10 picks but turned out to be nothing.

And while it's exciting to think that we can land a franchise player in the lottery, we can also have a Hasheem Thabeet, we can't rule that out. Now imagine Andrew Wiggins and Jabari Parker as your centerpiece without Rondo and Green? Sounds nice right. Now imagine Thabeet as your centerpiece without Rondo and Green? That's the risk we are taking if we trade Rondo and Green just so we land a lottery pick.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: rondoallaturca on July 20, 2013, 01:52:03 PM
I still don't understand why anyone would want to full-out tank by trading Rondo.

This is a solid, solid draft. Some players viewed as potential fantasy cornerstones aren't even going in the top 5 in some mock drafts I've seen. One that I read had Gordon at #9. With so many high-upside players, it's inevitable that a legitimate talent will fall into 5-10, where Boston will likely be drafting. Considering Ainge's drafting talents, I'm not worried at all about not having a top 5 pick.

I mean, that's like having the Warriors move up to get Tyreke in 2009 even though they had Curry three picks later. Nothing is certain in the lottery, but what is certain is that talent doesn't suddenly go off a cliff after the first five picks. It's just incredibly foolish to trade a proven NBA star - and arguably one of the best PGs in the league - just to move up a couple spots in a deep draft.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: More Banners on July 20, 2013, 02:05:36 PM
I still don't understand why anyone would want to full-out tank by trading Rondo.

This is a solid, solid draft. Some players viewed as potential fantasy cornerstones aren't even going in the top 5 in some mock drafts I've seen. One that I read had Gordon at #9. With so many high-upside players, it's inevitable that a legitimate talent will fall into 5-10, where Boston will likely be drafting. Considering Ainge's drafting talents, I'm not worried at all about not having a top 5 pick.

I mean, that's like having the Warriors move up to get Tyreke in 2009 even though they had Curry three picks later. Nothing is certain in the lottery, but what is certain is that talent doesn't suddenly go off a cliff after the first five picks. It's just incredibly foolish to trade a proven NBA star - and arguably one of the best PGs in the league - just to move up a couple spots in a deep draft.

Me either.

Starting AS PG on the team, plus a nice 20ppg guy in Green (pretty sure on that).

We should be looking to build on this, not rebuild.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Celtics4ever on July 20, 2013, 02:15:21 PM
I do think Rondo and Green have star potential not superstar but star there is a difference.   But we also had trouble scoring with PP and KG in the 4th and I think these guys will struggle as well.

I too am of the mindset you keep Green and Rondo.   I would be willing to deal Humphries, Wallace ( no one would want him) , Bass and possibly Bradley ( I love his D hate his PG skills and shooting skills).
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: gpap on July 20, 2013, 02:45:13 PM
I love how everyone on this board thinks Rondo is one of the top few players in this league and a walking triple double, however can't be enough of a difference to us to have us win more than 20 games. Add Green to that who averaged 13 pts a game in only 28 minutes a game and put up 15 per in March and 17 per in April showing he was recovering and getting better as the season went, but no this team with those two guys are only going to win 20 games... LOL

That's not even mentioning Wallace and Humphries who are starter level players in this league, and Bass who is a legitimate strong bench player and borderline starter.

Wake up people! The only reason that people can kind of argue that we SHOULDN'T tank and instead find a few pieces to fit around Rondo and Green is because those two are good enough with the rest of the guys we have to actually win 30-35 games. Personally I don't see Rondo as good as many on here, or at least the guy I want to build my team around, but he is an all star level player. Same with Jeff Green once he is back completely  100%. If I thought we had a shot at signing ONE top tier free agent I'd say let's do it. We don't however, and so the draft is our only shot. That is if we can draft in the top 5...

I'd hate to agree with you again, but there you go (lol!!)

I think when it comes to Rondo, there's two trains of thought.

Some fans think he's a franchise player you can build around, where others don't.

I fall in the category where I just don't think he's a franchise player.

Sorry, but I don't look at him as a guy you can build around. Now could he be a key piece to a contending team? Yes. But I just find too many imperfections in his game to be a "go to guy." (ie....can't knock down consistent jumper, frequent turn overs, attitude issues, passes up too many shots, etc.)

I am off the belief that if the Celts can add a guy like Kevin Love or Lamarcus Aldridge, then perfect. A Rondo-Bradley-Green-insert name (Love, Aldridge) could be a VERY good core.

However, with just Rondo and Green, I don't see it.

If you could deal Rondo (and Green) now and get some value for the long term, you'd have to do it.

I believe we should do this right. Either add star players to Rondo and contend, or tear it down completely, jettison Rondo, Green and whoever else and start from scratch.

To me, a team of Rondo/Green/Bradley/Olynk/Sully is the worse thing possible. Not good enough to be a championship team, not bad enough to be a lottery pick.

I keep going back to Detroit. A deal involving Rondo being swapped for either Monroe or Drummond would be perfect. I'd rather build around a big guy than a point guard.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: rondoallaturca on July 20, 2013, 02:49:01 PM
I'd hate to agree with you again, but there you go (lol!!)

I think when it comes to Rondo, there's two trains of thought.

Some fans think he's a franchise player you can build around, where others don't.

I fall in the category where I just don't think he's a franchise player.

Sorry, but I don't look at him as a guy you can build around. Now could he be a key piece to a contending team? Yes. But I just find too many imperfections in his game to be a "go to guy." (ie....can't knock down consistent jumper, frequent turn overs, attitude issues, passes up too many shots, etc.)

I am off the belief that if the Celts can add a guy like Kevin Love or Lamarcus Aldridge, then perfect. A Rondo-Bradley-Green-insert name (Love, Aldridge) could be a VERY good core.

However, with just Rondo and Green, I don't see it.

If you could deal Rondo (and Green) now and get some value for the long term, you'd have to do it.

I believe we should do this right. Either add star players to Rondo and contend, or tear it down completely, jettison Rondo, Green and whoever else and start from scratch.

To me, a team of Rondo/Green/Bradley/Olynk/Sully is the worse thing possible. Not good enough to be a championship, not bad enough to be a lottery pick.

I go keep going back to Detroit. A deal involving Rondo being swapped for either Monroe or Drummond would be perfect. I'd rather build around a big guy than a point guard.

...?

Obviously if Rondo is kept, Boston is adding stars around him. I mean, not even Lebron could succeed as a one man wrecking crew.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: LooseCannon on July 20, 2013, 03:16:12 PM
I think when it comes to Rondo, there's two trains of thought.

Some fans think he's a franchise player you can build around, where others don't.

I fall in the category where I just don't think he's a franchise player.

I'd like the Celtics to use this season to definitively prove which one is correct.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: gpap on July 20, 2013, 03:25:07 PM
I'd hate to agree with you again, but there you go (lol!!)

I think when it comes to Rondo, there's two trains of thought.

Some fans think he's a franchise player you can build around, where others don't.

I fall in the category where I just don't think he's a franchise player.

Sorry, but I don't look at him as a guy you can build around. Now could he be a key piece to a contending team? Yes. But I just find too many imperfections in his game to be a "go to guy." (ie....can't knock down consistent jumper, frequent turn overs, attitude issues, passes up too many shots, etc.)

I am off the belief that if the Celts can add a guy like Kevin Love or Lamarcus Aldridge, then perfect. A Rondo-Bradley-Green-insert name (Love, Aldridge) could be a VERY good core.

However, with just Rondo and Green, I don't see it.

If you could deal Rondo (and Green) now and get some value for the long term, you'd have to do it.

I believe we should do this right. Either add star players to Rondo and contend, or tear it down completely, jettison Rondo, Green and whoever else and start from scratch.

To me, a team of Rondo/Green/Bradley/Olynk/Sully is the worse thing possible. Not good enough to be a championship, not bad enough to be a lottery pick.

I go keep going back to Detroit. A deal involving Rondo being swapped for either Monroe or Drummond would be perfect. I'd rather build around a big guy than a point guard.

...?

Obviously if Rondo is kept, Boston is adding stars around him. I mean, not even Lebron could succeed as a one man wrecking crew.

I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: rondoallaturca on July 20, 2013, 03:26:41 PM
I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Well obviously... Rondo is a PASS-FIRST point guard. Obviously he's never going to be THE man.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: gpap on July 20, 2013, 03:30:45 PM
I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Well obviously... Rondo is a PASS-FIRST point guard. Obviously he's never going to be THE man.

I know. But what I am trying to say is I don't look at Rondo as a "can't miss or can't trade" player for that reason. Because he passes first.

It's just a matter of opinion. Me personally, I'd rather my point guard and/or star player be someone who takes a game over by himself, instead of deferring to his teammates.

Someone who stands out in a timeout huddle and asks for the ball with 3 seconds left to take the big shot, when your team is down by one.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on July 20, 2013, 03:33:47 PM
I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Well obviously... Rondo is a PASS-FIRST point guard. Obviously he's never going to be THE man.

Most of the folks here are in this mindset that we should build around Rondo.

How about rebuild and have Rondo as a big piece but not the main piece? A lot of teams have a Main Piece and no supporting cast.

If we develop players right, we are in a position to acquire a main piece to add along an already superb supporting cast in Rondo and to some extent Green. Why can't we just keep them and use the assets we have instead of completely gut the team to get this main piece?
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Spicoli on July 20, 2013, 03:34:28 PM
This team will miss the playoffs and will be guaranteed a lottery spot any way it goes. I guess the question now is, how high will the lottery pick be. The only teams with less talent on their rosters is Charlotte, Philly, maybe Sacramento, Milwaukee, and Phoenix. Every other team in the league, i would take their roster over the C's current roster. I love Jeff Green, so i wouldn't trade him. I would however trade Rondo, whose skill set is useless for a rebuilding team. A guy who only brings his A game during the playoffs, Rondo is going to coast in the regular season like he always does, and with the lack of talent on this team to make up for his coasting, it's a recipe for disaster. Trade Rondo for any amount of draft picks that you can get. Keep Green. Lets hope for a high lottery pick.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Larry for 3 on July 20, 2013, 03:38:28 PM
I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Well obviously... Rondo is a PASS-FIRST point guard. Obviously he's never going to be THE man.

I know. But what I am trying to say is I don't look at Rondo as a "can't miss or can't trade" player for that reason. Because he passes first.

It's just a matter of opinion. Me personally, I'd rather my point guard and/or star player be someone who takes a game over by himself, instead of deferring to his teammates.

Someone who stands out in a timeout huddle and asks for the ball with 3 seconds left to take the big shot, when your team is down by one.

exactly, that's why i dont get people who think this team is winning 42 games with the way the roster is right now. It just isnt gonna happen. Never mind the fact that we have no depth, no paint presence, and no rim protection, but offensively who is Rondo passing to? It's on thing when he's passing to HOFers who shoot it well and when they are not they don the other things to help the team win, but where are the shooters on this roster, where's the inside game?  People are not thinking this out clearly. This roster right now is maybe 30 wins. And you dont think opposing teams on the Celtics on real options are rondo and green, they will key on those guys to force the ball elsewhere, and look at the other options, not exactly All stars; it's gonna be a long year with or without rondo. 
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: EJPLAYA on July 20, 2013, 06:34:13 PM
I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Well obviously... Rondo is a PASS-FIRST point guard. Obviously he's never going to be THE man.

Most of the folks here are in this mindset that we should build around Rondo.

How about rebuild and have Rondo as a big piece but not the main piece? A lot of teams have a Main Piece and no supporting cast.

If we develop players right, we are in a position to acquire a main piece to add along an already superb supporting cast in Rondo and to some extent Green. Why can't we just keep them and use the assets we have instead of completely gut the team to get this main piece?

I'm okay with this thought, however you have one REALLY big problem. HOW are you going to get this "main piece"?! I agree that Rondo coupled with 2 better franchise players can win it all. (although with 3 of them KG, PP, and Ray we only did it once) You stick Rondo on a team with Lebron and Wade, and yes they will win it all.

You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: rondoallaturca on July 20, 2013, 06:38:11 PM
You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

You mean trade? Drafting has rarely translated into success. Guys like Duncan and Dirk are a rarity. I mean, you use Lebron as your example, which doesn't make sense at all because he needed to get traded before winning his rings.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: rjb182 on July 20, 2013, 07:06:30 PM
One thing I really feel needs to be remembered when talking about different ways to build this team:

Most of the time, nothing works.

There are 30 teams in the league. So in a completely random league, you'd only win one championship every 30 years. And of course, the league is not random, it's a league where great teams can win two, three, six, or eleven championships. Which makes the pickings even slimmer for everyone else.

97 percent of teams are going to fail, every single season. So when we talk about "You need to do this or this or THAT" to build a champion, we're really just giving our best guesses based on logic and a small sample size of previous champions and a modest sample size of legit contenders.

I think the important thing is not necessarily what plan you use, but having a plan and giving it a chance to succeed. I'd prefer a high draft pick this year based on my observations, but if you think we should build around Rondo or Rondo and Green or sign free agents or hang around the Big And Tall section at K-Mart looking for our next franchise center...

Well, any of that COULD work. But it probably won't. We're just playing the odds at this point, and how you see the odds is partly data-driven (one would hope) and partly subjective.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: EJPLAYA on July 20, 2013, 09:37:08 PM
You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

You mean trade? Drafting has rarely translated into success. Guys like Duncan and Dirk are a rarity. I mean, you use Lebron as your example, which doesn't make sense at all because he needed to get traded before winning his rings.

NO, I mean draft. If we are throwing out the option of trading away Rondo and Green, then we don't have the chips necessary to trade for a franchise level player. If we did, then I am all in on that. Trade our scrubs for Lebron and then we will win it all...  ::)

Back to reality, our best hope is trading with a team who is bad and will likely have a low pick and hope that Rondo doesn't play well into the season. This way we get a couple of upside guys along with another shot at Wiggins or Parker. That along with our own low pick and one later in the round we have a shot. If it doesn't happen, we do it again next year.

Had Lebron stayed Bosch would have been in Cleveland and another guy would have joined them. He still would have won a championship.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: EJPLAYA on July 20, 2013, 09:40:42 PM
One thing I really feel needs to be remembered when talking about different ways to build this team:

Most of the time, nothing works.

There are 30 teams in the league. So in a completely random league, you'd only win one championship every 30 years. And of course, the league is not random, it's a league where great teams can win two, three, six, or eleven championships. Which makes the pickings even slimmer for everyone else.

97 percent of teams are going to fail, every single season. So when we talk about "You need to do this or this or THAT" to build a champion, we're really just giving our best guesses based on logic and a small sample size of previous champions and a modest sample size of legit contenders.

I think the important thing is not necessarily what plan you use, but having a plan and giving it a chance to succeed. I'd prefer a high draft pick this year based on my observations, but if you think we should build around Rondo or Rondo and Green or sign free agents or hang around the Big And Tall section at K-Mart looking for our next franchise center...

Well, any of that COULD work. But it probably won't. We're just playing the odds at this point, and how you see the odds is partly data-driven (one would hope) and partly subjective.

Considering the fact we have won 17 of them out of 67 and 4 out of the last 32, you're math doesn't quite add up. Unless you are counting us among the scrubs of the NBA...
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Vox_Populi on July 20, 2013, 09:51:21 PM
I know. What I meant is if the Celts added another star, perhaps then he becomes the go to guy. LIke for example, if the Celts added a Kevin Love, then Love becomes the go to guy instead of Rondo.

Well obviously... Rondo is a PASS-FIRST point guard. Obviously he's never going to be THE man.

I know. But what I am trying to say is I don't look at Rondo as a "can't miss or can't trade" player for that reason. Because he passes first.

It's just a matter of opinion. Me personally, I'd rather my point guard and/or star player be someone who takes a game over by himself, instead of deferring to his teammates.

Someone who stands out in a timeout huddle and asks for the ball with 3 seconds left to take the big shot, when your team is down by one.
You must be a huge fan of Rondo then. With games like 18/17/20, 29/18/13, 32/15/10, 12/10/22/6 and I'm sure others, all of which we won by the way, I'm not sure if there's a point guard who takes over a game so completely.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: gpap on July 20, 2013, 10:00:26 PM
You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

You mean trade? Drafting has rarely translated into success. Guys like Duncan and Dirk are a rarity. I mean, you use Lebron as your example, which doesn't make sense at all because he needed to get traded before winning his rings.

NO, I mean draft. If we are throwing out the option of trading away Rondo and Green, then we don't have the chips necessary to trade for a franchise level player. If we did, then I am all in on that. Trade our scrubs for Lebron and then we will win it all...  ::)

Back to reality, our best hope is trading with a team who is bad and will likely have a low pick and hope that Rondo doesn't play well into the season. This way we get a couple of upside guys along with another shot at Wiggins or Parker. That along with our own low pick and one later in the round we have a shot. If it doesn't happen, we do it again next year.

Had Lebron stayed Bosch would have been in Cleveland and another guy would have joined them. He still would have won a championship.

Problem there is you'll have a hard time finding a bad team agreeing to deal their 2014 1st in exchange for a potentially injured Rondo.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: rondoallaturca on July 20, 2013, 10:20:26 PM
You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

You mean trade? Drafting has rarely translated into success. Guys like Duncan and Dirk are a rarity. I mean, you use Lebron as your example, which doesn't make sense at all because he needed to get traded before winning his rings.

NO, I mean draft. If we are throwing out the option of trading away Rondo and Green, then we don't have the chips necessary to trade for a franchise level player. If we did, then I am all in on that. Trade our scrubs for Lebron and then we will win it all...  ::)

Back to reality, our best hope is trading with a team who is bad and will likely have a low pick and hope that Rondo doesn't play well into the season. This way we get a couple of upside guys along with another shot at Wiggins or Parker. That along with our own low pick and one later in the round we have a shot. If it doesn't happen, we do it again next year.

Had Lebron stayed Bosch would have been in Cleveland and another guy would have joined them. He still would have won a championship.

Why does your world revolve around Lebron? Can no one else win a championship unless he's on their team? And what proof do you have that Bosh would join Lebron in Cleveland?

Dwight netted Orlando two young prospects, one stash, Afflalo, Harrington, three 1st round picks, and two 2nd round picks. You're telling me Boston doesn't have two young prospects (Sully, Olynyk, Bradley...even Brooks to an extent), doesn't have a stash (Faverani and Melo), doesn't have an Afflalo (Green, who is better), doesn't have a Harrington (Bass or Wallace), three 1st round picks (9 in 5 years), and two 2nd round picks (not sure about specifics but we definitely have at least two).

And I have to point two things out:
1. Orlando got that massive haul because it was a huge four-team trade. Boston has all those assets JUST BY THEMSELVES.
2. Dwight is a top-tier can't-miss superstar-level free agent. Probably the only other players who can command that sort of haul in the NBA right now are Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, James Harden, Chris Paul, and Derrick Rose.

It's absolutely ludicrous to say we don't have the chips needed to make a swing at one of those top-tier franchise player. We most certainly do. And that means we also have more than enough pieces for stars like Aldridge or Love, should the opportunity present itself.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: bleedGREENdon on July 20, 2013, 11:39:38 PM
You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

You mean trade? Drafting has rarely translated into success. Guys like Duncan and Dirk are a rarity. I mean, you use Lebron as your example, which doesn't make sense at all because he needed to get traded before winning his rings.

NO, I mean draft. If we are throwing out the option of trading away Rondo and Green, then we don't have the chips necessary to trade for a franchise level player. If we did, then I am all in on that. Trade our scrubs for Lebron and then we will win it all...  ::)

Back to reality, our best hope is trading with a team who is bad and will likely have a low pick and hope that Rondo doesn't play well into the season. This way we get a couple of upside guys along with another shot at Wiggins or Parker. That along with our own low pick and one later in the round we have a shot. If it doesn't happen, we do it again next year.

Had Lebron stayed Bosch would have been in Cleveland and another guy would have joined them. He still would have won a championship.

Why does your world revolve around Lebron? Can no one else win a championship unless he's on their team? And what proof do you have that Bosh would join Lebron in Cleveland?

Dwight netted Orlando two young prospects, one stash, Afflalo, Harrington, three 1st round picks, and two 2nd round picks. You're telling me Boston doesn't have two young prospects (Sully, Olynyk, Bradley...even Brooks to an extent), doesn't have a stash (Faverani and Melo), doesn't have an Afflalo (Green, who is better), doesn't have a Harrington (Bass or Wallace), three 1st round picks (9 in 5 years), and two 2nd round picks (not sure about specifics but we definitely have at least two).

And I have to point two things out:
1. Orlando got that massive haul because it was a huge four-team trade. Boston has all those assets JUST BY THEMSELVES.
2. Dwight is a top-tier can't-miss superstar-level free agent. Probably the only other players who can command that sort of haul in the NBA right now are Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, James Harden, Chris Paul, and Derrick Rose.

It's absolutely ludicrous to say we don't have the chips needed to make a swing at one of those top-tier franchise player. We most certainly do. And that means we also have more than enough pieces for stars like Aldridge or Love, should the opportunity present itself.

I 100% agree with you, but to be honest id only want to set out any where near a haul for only the likes of carmelo anthony. I dont see us winning a championship besides drafting Wiggins or Parker, and combining them with our core we have right now AND trading or picking up a star talent big man in free agency. Thats my dream scenerio this year, we tank. Keep our core throughout the year. At the end of the year maybe draft night, we trade our assets, Sully,AB,Hump,Multiple Picks, Bogans, Marshon Brooks, for a big man in the likes of Aldridge or Cousins, and combine them with Rondo, JG, Wiggins/Parker. Then we can talk about a championship.

All in all, I see our best scenerio being that we tank this season, get our top 5 draft pick, sign close to a max or a max deal free agent, and combine them with our core, and Danny and co, ARE BACK IN BUS.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: chambers on July 20, 2013, 11:46:29 PM
Tanking advocates like myself don't want to be perennial bums like the Bobcats. With Ainge in charge that's basically impossible unless we run into a Greg Oden situation where a star lottery pick goes bad.

I just want people who are so anti-tanking and hate the luck factor involved to consider the luck of getting another 2 guys to make this team a contender.
Here are the facts:
*Rondo has 2 seasons left on his current deal
*Green has 3 seasons left (1 is player option so only 2 guaranteed)

We don't just need one more 'All Star' like Aldridge, we need TWO if we are rolling with Green and Rondo.
Rondo, Green and Aldridge, Sully and Bradley are not putting us into the Finals. They are simply not good enough in today's NBA.

The luck involved of first signing Aldridge and then getting Kevin Love (or someone similar) via a trade is on the same odds of luck involved in getting a top 5 pick.

Am I being completely unrealistic? I don't think so.
It's easy to say that we shouldn't tank because of the luck involved but you have to look at both sides of the argument.

Which 'locked up contract' players are we signing via trade in the next 2 seasons? Or free agency?
And with Rondo having 2 years left, you'd have to think in order for him to stay with Boston that we'd HAVE to get him one of these players within those 2 years right?
I just can't see any scenario where we can land those two extra All Star guys (or one legit franchise guy) before his deal is up.


Personally, I don't have a problem with rebuilding with the guys we have- but I feel the 2014(14' in particular) and 2015 drafts have a talent factor that comes around once every 10 years. It's been 10 years since the last one.
We are in a great position to land Parker, Randle or Wiggins. 3 guys in the top 5 that are once in every 10 year talents. It's these kind of talents that win NBA championships.
The odds of ever winning a championship are so slim that no matter which route we pick, it's probably not happening.

I just feel the best shot of doing that is via the draft.
Teams that get to the NBA finals have drafted their franchise player and he has led them there 95% of the time. You have to give him the right help though.
If you can get me Alridge and another All Star to put next to Rondo and Green in the next 2 years then I'm all for it.
I just want someone to show me how it's possible. People seem to ignore that Rondo walks if he wants in 2015.
What are the odds of that happening compared to getting Wiggins, Parker or Randle and then pairing them with Sully, Olynyk and the other 9 picks we have in the next 5 years?

Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: WeMadeIt17 on July 20, 2013, 11:58:11 PM
Tanking advocates like myself don't want to be perennial bums like the Bobcats. With Ainge in charge that's basically impossible unless we run into a Greg Oden situation where a star lottery pick goes bad.

I just want people who are so anti-tanking and hate the luck factor involved to consider the luck of getting another 2 guys to make this team a contender.
Here are the facts:
*Rondo has 2 seasons left on his current deal
*Green has 3 seasons left (1 is player option so only 2 guaranteed)

We don't just need one more 'All Star' like Aldridge, we need TWO if we are rolling with Green and Rondo.
Rondo, Green and Aldridge, Sully and Bradley are not putting us into the Finals. They are simply not good enough in today's NBA.

The luck involved of first signing Aldridge and then getting Kevin Love (or someone similar) via a trade is on the same odds of luck involved in getting a top 5 pick.

Am I being completely unrealistic? I don't think so.
It's easy to say that we shouldn't tank because of the luck involved but you have to look at both sides of the argument.

Which 'locked up contract' players are we signing via trade in the next 2 seasons? Or free agency?
And with Rondo having 2 years left, you'd have to think in order for him to stay with Boston that we'd HAVE to get him one of these players within those 2 years right?
I just can't see any scenario where we can land those two extra All Star guys (or one legit franchise guy) before his deal is up.


Personally, I don't have a problem with rebuilding with the guys we have- but I feel the 2014(14' in particular) and 2015 drafts have a talent factor that comes around once every 10 years. It's been 10 years since the last one.
We are in a great position to land Parker, Randle or Wiggins. 3 guys in the top 5 that are once in every 10 year talents. It's these kind of talents that win NBA championships.
The odds of ever winning a championship are so slim that no matter which route we pick, it's probably not happening.

I just feel the best shot of doing that is via the draft.
Teams that win a championship have drafted their franchise player and he has led them there 95% of the time.
If you can get me Alridge and another All Star to put next to Rondo and Green in the next 2 years then I'm all for it.
What are the odds of that happening compared to getting Wiggins, Parker or Randle and then pairing them with Sully, Olynyk and the other 9 picks we have in the next 5 years?


While i am with you on being bad and needing franchise players in the draft i just don't think we gain anything by moving Rondo and say gaining Wiggins. I think if Danny's plan involves getting a high pick this season then we need to hold Rondo and Sully out for a little longer and really lock up some losses early in the year. Now on the flip side i think this is where Danny's problem is. Should he try and make moves for guys like LA and Klove, and bring Rondo back early and have him help showcase guys on our team. Or does he say hold off on Rondo and be bad for this season.

Its such a tough spot because there is no for sure thing that we get either of those guys simply cause the players we have haven't shown enough, so its like if we compete and try to showcase guys then again i think this team wins to many games and will lose out on getting a top pick.


UGH. I do think being bad this season is the way to go though. Hopefully we can land Parker or Wiggins. Then turn around and sign a big time free agent and go from there.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: rondoallaturca on July 21, 2013, 01:12:58 AM
The luck involved of first signing Aldridge and then getting Kevin Love (or someone similar) via a trade is on the same odds of luck involved in getting a top 5 pick.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, we have enough assets comparable to what Orlando got for Dwight. In other words, we have enough assets to trade for just about anyone who becomes available on the block. Furthermore, as LooseCannon posted in another thread, we will have enough cap space for a max free agent, too. So, the only odds would be Ainge actually converting the assets/cap into two stars. Given Ainge's history, I'd say that's pretty darn high, especially when players will have the chance to play next to Rondo. Furthermore, as it stands, this team is going to get a 5-10 pick anyway. I've probably seen 10 different names go as possible top 5 picks. That speaks volumes about how top-loaded this 2014 draft is. What are the chances one of those high potential players falls into the 5-10 range for Ainge to draft? Again, pretty darn high.

Meanwhile, what are the chances we get even value in return for Rondo? What are the chances that other teams start tanking and blow up their team even worse than Boston? Even if that doesn't happen, what are the chances we get a top 3 pick anyway? Even if you finish as a bottom 3 team, you aren't guaranteed a top 3 pick. Furthermore, even if we do get a top 3 pick, what are the chances a FA would rather come to Boston when a rookie is their best player, not Rondo? What are the chances we build up a contender around a Wiggins-type rookie if one of the greatest players of all time needed to switch teams before winning? And the list keeps going...

I don't know about you, but I'll stick with not tanking rather than tanking. You're right in that the probability of anything working is slim to none, but I'd rather maximize my opportunities (and consequently maximize the probability of succeeding), rather than sticking to one and only one option.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: EJPLAYA on July 21, 2013, 01:35:28 AM
You will never get a Lebron type player to sign with the C's though. Hasn't happened. Never will. The ONLY way you will get a franchise type player is to draft him. If you have Rondo on the team with Green and crew you will be picking outside the top 10 and you don't get a franchise player in that spot anymore. Not 100% impossible, but your odds are a whole lot better with the ping pong balls...

You mean trade? Drafting has rarely translated into success. Guys like Duncan and Dirk are a rarity. I mean, you use Lebron as your example, which doesn't make sense at all because he needed to get traded before winning his rings.

NO, I mean draft. If we are throwing out the option of trading away Rondo and Green, then we don't have the chips necessary to trade for a franchise level player. If we did, then I am all in on that. Trade our scrubs for Lebron and then we will win it all...  ::)

Back to reality, our best hope is trading with a team who is bad and will likely have a low pick and hope that Rondo doesn't play well into the season. This way we get a couple of upside guys along with another shot at Wiggins or Parker. That along with our own low pick and one later in the round we have a shot. If it doesn't happen, we do it again next year.

Had Lebron stayed Bosch would have been in Cleveland and another guy would have joined them. He still would have won a championship.

Why does your world revolve around Lebron? Can no one else win a championship unless he's on their team? And what proof do you have that Bosh would join Lebron in Cleveland?

Dwight netted Orlando two young prospects, one stash, Afflalo, Harrington, three 1st round picks, and two 2nd round picks. You're telling me Boston doesn't have two young prospects (Sully, Olynyk, Bradley...even Brooks to an extent), doesn't have a stash (Faverani and Melo), doesn't have an Afflalo (Green, who is better), doesn't have a Harrington (Bass or Wallace), three 1st round picks (9 in 5 years), and two 2nd round picks (not sure about specifics but we definitely have at least two).

And I have to point two things out:
1. Orlando got that massive haul because it was a huge four-team trade. Boston has all those assets JUST BY THEMSELVES.
2. Dwight is a top-tier can't-miss superstar-level free agent. Probably the only other players who can command that sort of haul in the NBA right now are Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, James Harden, Chris Paul, and Derrick Rose.

It's absolutely ludicrous to say we don't have the chips needed to make a swing at one of those top-tier franchise player. We most certainly do. And that means we also have more than enough pieces for stars like Aldridge or Love, should the opportunity present itself.

First off, my world doesn't remotely revolve around Lebron. I hate that guy with a passion you can't imagine. That being said, he is the player who stands between every team in the league and a championship for the next few years. As far as Bosch going to Cleveland, he came out and said so. That if Lebron stayed in Cleveland he would have signed there.

Take a look at the championships won in the past 5-10 years. If you didn't have a Lebron, Kobe, a Duncan, a Dirk, or a combo of guys like PP, KG, and Ray, you weren't legitimate contenders. You DO NOT win without a superstar. We do not have one, and NO we do not have the chips to trade for one. Rondo is not going to get you one. Neither is a collection of young maybe's. We are not a destination for ANY top tier free agent, so the truth of the matter is we are going to have to draft one. Not going to happen outside the top 10. Teams aren't going to trade you a superstar unless they are on the downside of their careers. Without a superstar or two in place already that doesn't do you any good. That's where we are at. Plain and simple.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: rondoallaturca on July 21, 2013, 02:13:45 AM
First off, my world doesn't remotely revolve around Lebron. I hate that guy with a passion you can't imagine. That being said, he is the player who stands between every team in the league and a championship for the next few years. As far as Bosch going to Cleveland, he came out and said so. That if Lebron stayed in Cleveland he would have signed there.

Take a look at the championships won in the past 5-10 years. If you didn't have a Lebron, Kobe, a Duncan, a Dirk, or a combo of guys like PP, KG, and Ray, you weren't legitimate contenders. You DO NOT win without a superstar. We do not have one, and NO we do not have the chips to trade for one. Rondo is not going to get you one. Neither is a collection of young maybe's. We are not a destination for ANY top tier free agent, so the truth of the matter is we are going to have to draft one. Not going to happen outside the top 10. Teams aren't going to trade you a superstar unless they are on the downside of their careers. Without a superstar or two in place already that doesn't do you any good. That's where we are at. Plain and simple.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5357607

It was Toronto that was willing to go through with the S&T, not Bosh. Apparently he actually had no interest in it.

Furthermore, why are we not a destination for a top free agent? Is there a rule in the NBA preventing top free agents from signing in Boston? Aside from that, why is the only alternative to free agency drafting? What happened to trading? You say that trading only works when it involves superstars on the downside of their careers... Um, Chris Paul? Dwight Howard? James Harden?

Right now we have the assets to trade for a max level star. We will also have cap room to sign yet another max level star. It's not a guarantee Ainge can successfully convert the assets/cap into tangible players, but the fact remains that we're in a situation to do so, so the truth of the matter is we are by no means forced to draft in order to get a star. That's where we are at. Plain and simple.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: EJPLAYA on July 21, 2013, 02:33:32 AM
First off, my world doesn't remotely revolve around Lebron. I hate that guy with a passion you can't imagine. That being said, he is the player who stands between every team in the league and a championship for the next few years. As far as Bosch going to Cleveland, he came out and said so. That if Lebron stayed in Cleveland he would have signed there.

Take a look at the championships won in the past 5-10 years. If you didn't have a Lebron, Kobe, a Duncan, a Dirk, or a combo of guys like PP, KG, and Ray, you weren't legitimate contenders. You DO NOT win without a superstar. We do not have one, and NO we do not have the chips to trade for one. Rondo is not going to get you one. Neither is a collection of young maybe's. We are not a destination for ANY top tier free agent, so the truth of the matter is we are going to have to draft one. Not going to happen outside the top 10. Teams aren't going to trade you a superstar unless they are on the downside of their careers. Without a superstar or two in place already that doesn't do you any good. That's where we are at. Plain and simple.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5357607

It was Toronto that was willing to go through with the S&T, not Bosh. Apparently he actually had no interest in it.

Furthermore, why are we not a destination for a top free agent? Is there a rule in the NBA preventing top free agents from signing in Boston? Aside from that, why is the only alternative to free agency drafting? What happened to trading? You say that trading only works when it involves superstars on the downside of their careers... Um, Chris Paul? Dwight Howard? James Harden?

Right now we have the assets to trade for a max level star. We will also have cap room to sign yet another max level star. It's not a guarantee Ainge can successfully convert the assets/cap into tangible players, but the fact remains that we're in a situation to do so, so the truth of the matter is we are by no means forced to draft in order to get a star. That's where we are at. Plain and simple.

That isn't what happened. Yes Toronto said that they would be willing to work with a sign and trade if that took place, however Bosch came out and said he was going wherever Lebron landed. It was their plan for a year or so. Whatever.

And here is the proof about the free agent situation. Name me ONE top tier cornerstone free agent that signed in Boston. Ever...  I think I will be waiting awhile for your example...
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: LooseCannon on July 21, 2013, 05:35:52 AM
We don't just need one more 'All Star' like Aldridge, we need TWO if we are rolling with Green and Rondo.
Rondo, Green and Aldridge, Sully and Bradley are not putting us into the Finals. They are simply not good enough in today's NBA.

I'm not necessarily agreeing that you need two such players, but if you did, you should go ahead and acquire the first one before you have a deal lined up for the second one, or even a good idea of who you might target as the second guy, so long as getting the first guy does screw up your cap situation or use up all your assets in a way that makes it difficult to get that second star.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: LooseCannon on July 21, 2013, 05:42:06 AM
And here is the proof about the free agent situation. Name me ONE top tier cornerstone free agent that signed in Boston. Ever...  I think I will be waiting awhile for your example...

How many top tier free agents has Boston actually chased strongly and missed out on?

Given how free agency has been shaking out recently, I think the Celtics will be seen as a top free agent destination next summer if Rondo looks like a star and leads the team to a first-round exit in the playoffs because the Celtics will be viewed as an exciting young team on the rise.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: EJPLAYA on July 21, 2013, 09:29:39 AM
And here is the proof about the free agent situation. Name me ONE top tier cornerstone free agent that signed in Boston. Ever...  I think I will be waiting awhile for your example...

How many top tier free agents has Boston actually chased strongly and missed out on?

Given how free agency has been shaking out recently, I think the Celtics will be seen as a top free agent destination next summer if Rondo looks like a star and leads the team to a first-round exit in the playoffs because the Celtics will be viewed as an exciting young team on the rise.

That's it... We didn't WANT any top tier franchise free agents...  ::)
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: BballTim on July 21, 2013, 10:37:34 AM
And here is the proof about the free agent situation. Name me ONE top tier cornerstone free agent that signed in Boston. Ever...  I think I will be waiting awhile for your example...

How many top tier free agents has Boston actually chased strongly and missed out on?

Given how free agency has been shaking out recently, I think the Celtics will be seen as a top free agent destination next summer if Rondo looks like a star and leads the team to a first-round exit in the playoffs because the Celtics will be viewed as an exciting young team on the rise.

That's it... We didn't WANT any top tier franchise free agents...  ::)

  Have we ever had the cap space to pursue a top tier free agent?
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: rondoallaturca on July 21, 2013, 11:00:30 AM
That isn't what happened. Yes Toronto said that they would be willing to work with a sign and trade if that took place, however Bosch came out and said he was going wherever Lebron landed. It was their plan for a year or so. Whatever.

And here is the proof about the free agent situation. Name me ONE top tier cornerstone free agent that signed in Boston. Ever...  I think I will be waiting awhile for your example...

That's it... We didn't WANT any top tier franchise free agents...  ::)


...You just answered your own question. We've never really pursued any franchise free agents. Now, if we were like Dallas and stuck out on Deron and Dwight, then you might have some credibility. But Boston has never expressed interest in pursuing any star free agents. Most recently, Allen and KG were both acquired by trade, and obviously both of them, in addition to Pierce, meant that we didn't have cap room to sign one anyway.

So, there's absolutely no proof whatsoever to say that free agents don't want to come to Boston. Plenty of high-profile players have expressed praise and interest with playing with Rondo. Boston has a historic franchise. All the talk about lack of nightlife is garbage. Players are on the road half the time, and if their primary interest when it comes to basketball is how great the nightlife is, I wouldn't want him playing for my team anyway.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: Celtics4ever on July 21, 2013, 11:09:44 AM
Quote
  Have we ever had the cap space to pursue a top tier free agent?

No, and we don't have the weather either.
Title: Re: Without Trading Away Rondo and Green We Can't Tank
Post by: winsomme on July 21, 2013, 07:38:46 PM
I'm not so much worried about Green. I think he is a guy who can get nice stats on a team that still doesn't win much. Think of how Big Al was able to establish himself as a go-to player on a team that lost 18 games in a row...

Rondo is the guy who could win us games that we would rather lose at this point. The problem, however, is that you can't just give him away. This is a major quandary and part the reason this trade away KG and PP never totally made sense.

Honestly, if Danny can't figure out how to get us a top 5 pick in this draft without selling Rondo for 10 cents on the dollar, this will have been a completely botched operation because nothing we got back in the KG/PP trade is actually that valuable.

We would have been much better off seeing what this team could have done with Rondo, Sully, and Olynyk adding on to Pierce, KG, and a revived Green. That team would have been very fun to watch. Olynyk looks like a real player ready to contribute right away.

Still lamenting not getting to see that team play together.