CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ScoobyDoo on July 08, 2013, 12:43:09 PM
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I thought Melo looked pretty decent yesterday.
1. Showed very good lateral quickness for a guy his size.
2. Speaking of size, the guy is huge
3. Had 9 points, 9 boards and a block, affected some other shots.
4. When he lays a body on someone he eats up a lot of space.
I'm cautiously optimistic - he's made 'some" progress and I'm curious to see how much more progress he can make a under a new coach.
If he can:
1. Learn to turn, lock and box out his guy like he breaths
2. Learn how to hold his ground in the paint on both ends of the floor
3. Keep his hands high and active on D
I think he could become a 'decent" defensive and rebounding center for us.
I also think he has decent offensive ability - if still very raw. But he has a soft jump hook and decent form on his jump shot and his foul shot.
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His big problem is awareness, and he was horrible in the first half. Did a bit better in the second half both defensively and offensively. I particularly like when Olynyk set him up 2 plays in a row or so from the top of the key.
But in all, yes, he was bad. One can see he's still quite raw, particularly on how the game is played, just very hard to evaluate where he goes from here because he has some good physical tools and athleticism to work with.
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I think you're both right. Reading both of your posts I see a recognition of how limited his level of game understanding. If he can identify a simple task--box out, get the rebound, catch the pass and put the ball in the basket--he can execute that fairly well. But being a precise contributor in complex defensive schemes or passing out effectively on offense? That's probably still a ways off.
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Hopefully the new coach and staff can teach these kids how to play basketball better than the River's group.
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Hopefully the new coach and staff can teach these kids how to play basketball better than the River's group.
I think that is part of the reason Stevens was hired...because he and his assistants have proven to be very good at taking average to poor basketball recruits and teaching them the skills needed to be successful. The C's have several guys with more physical abilities than anybody Stevens has had on his team, ever.
I think the hope is that he can take Olynyk (with one real year of work as a big man) and Melo and develop their skills. In Melo's case see if he can train up his instincts.
Also, maybe work on guys like Brooks and Crawford and turn them into smarter, team-oriented basketball players. I mean, both Brooks and Crawford have the physical abilities to be excellent offensive *and* defensive guards, but neither are...mostly because of deficits between their ears. They aren't dumb, though, and could learn if they are approached right and motivated.
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Didn't catch the game and see what progress he has made...
Does it look like his difficulty is related to attention (in general), bball IQ, or just keeping up with the pace of the game, in general?
Think I'd only remain optimistic if it were the latter.
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So- here's my question about Fab Melo. Every time I watch him, he is on the losing end of some embarrassment, and yet he posts a good +/- and he was all-defense for the D-League last year.
I think he's terrible because every time I look at him, he does something totally weak.
Is this a Jack Wilson effect? Jack Wilson is the guy who always played the best defense by making everything look routine, but he never made web gem plays. Derrick Jeter, on the other hand, makes all the flashy plays but is a terrible overall defensive player.
Is Fab Melo quietly doing all the right things? Is Fab Melo a seven foot Jack Wilson and I'm just not seeing it?
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I thought Melo looked pretty decent yesterday.
1. Showed very good lateral quickness for a guy his size.
2. Speaking of size, the guy is huge
3. Had 9 points, 9 boards and a block, affected some other shots.
4. When he lays a body on someone he eats up a lot of space.
I'm cautiously optimistic - he's made 'some" progress and I'm curious to see how much more progress he can make a under a new coach.
If he can:
1. Learn to turn, lock and box out his guy like he breaths
2. Learn how to hold his ground in the paint on both ends of the floor
3. Keep his hands high and active on D
I think he could become a 'decent" defensive and rebounding center for us.
I also think he has decent offensive ability - if still very raw. But he has a soft jump hook and decent form on his jump shot and his foul shot.
No, he wasn't as bad as people were stating. You nailed it on the head with him. Great post.
Overall, I saw improvement from him since last years Summer League. He's just got to keep putting in the work year after year. We won't entirely know what we have until 3-4 years down the road, & we should be willing to wait (although most fans will not and overreact like they did with Perkins, etc.)
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Difference between olynyk and melo is mental quickness. Olynyk is decisive, confident while melo is the total opposite. He needed to dunk those two gimmes underneath the basket.
In college he wasnt like this. I guess he can thank and curse boheim due to his zone defense system
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Hopefully the new coach and staff can teach these kids how to play basketball better than the River's group.
I was planning to comment on this, but ultimately it is just too funny.
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I'm skeptical of Melo. He needs to work on strengthening his body and improving his coordination and balance. His gait when he runs the floor is weird, and he is often bent over unusually far at the waist instead crouching at the knees. He gets pushed around too easily in the paint for someone his size, and he is far too easily overmatched for rebounds. Some of his rebounding woes seem to be due to his poor "hands," but much of it is simply poor anticipation and getting knocked off balance too easily. I'm actually quite pleased with his scoring touch around the rim when he is left reasonably open, but he is terrible scoring in traffic and his release is too slow allowing others to recover quickly on him. With the exception of his ability to block shots, which I think is his main NBA ability, the rest of his skill set just seems a step slow. From my laymen perspective, I think his best shot to make it is to concentrate on building up his strength and his core balance. If he can do that, say to a Mark Blount level, I'd be a lot more confident that he'll turn into something serviceable. I'm less worried about his slow anticipation on the court at this point, as I think that will come around with more experience.
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Some of you need to lay off Melo a bit. Realize where he came from, what he's adjusting to, etc. We all want immediate results but when you've played as little basketball as him, played in a zone system virtually your entire career, you're not going to have the IQ of Bird, etc. immediately against NBA competition. You need a couple years to learn the game, system, NBA, etc.
It's going to be a long learning process for FAB. Most on here are judging him from a finished product standpoint. Why ? Judge him 3/4 years down the road.
If he's willing to put in the work, which most are stating that he is, than why not wait ? He's got the ability to at the very least be a solid 10-15 minute backup guy who will be a presence inside.
I look immediately for the improvements based on last years limited play when I watch these games. Immediately what jumped out at me yesterday ? He seemed more athletic going for rebounds than the year prior. He lost some, don't get me wrong, & he still needs to improve, but there were substantial differences based on last years limited time in action.
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So- here's my question about Fab Melo. Every time I watch him, he is on the losing end of some embarrassment, and yet he posts a good +/- and he was all-defense for the D-League last year.
I think he's terrible because every time I look at him, he does something totally weak.
Is this a Jack Wilson effect? Jack Wilson is the guy who always played the best defense by making everything look routine, but he never made web gem plays. Derrick Jeter, on the other hand, makes all the flashy plays but is a terrible overall defensive player.
Is Fab Melo quietly doing all the right things? Is Fab Melo a seven foot Jack Wilson and I'm just not seeing it?
Melo is wildly inconsistent...that's what he is.
He makes some spectacularly dumb looking plays, air-balling a hook shot, getting blocked by a guard because he doesn't go up strong on a dunk, passing into the back of an opposing player instead of one of his team mates. He also *looks* almost spastic jumping out to challenge, or going *way* outside to set a pick and then in both cases scrambling like mad to get back in the paint. Melo will rush to one side of the court to challenge a shot, then turn and rush to the other to try to get position on his man.
Then he makes an occasional great play, even two or three in a row, and you see his potential. Smooth hook shot, great position and rebound on defense, followed by a quick cut to the basket for a dunk on an interior pass. The good/great plays appeared to be increasing in frequency in D-League during Dec/Jan, then he got hurt and they fell off when he came back. Yesterday, both good and bad were in evidence.
However, when he isn't playing the Little Girl with the Curl (you know when she was good, she was very good but when she was bad she was awful) he seems to be quietly solid on defense. On offense, he sets screens and attempts to rebound. He has a long way to go there, too, but he seems to be improving on getting/keeping position. I also notice him moving out of his area to grab a rebound or two yesterday.
There are three things Melo does that absolutely flumux me. These are things I've seen from him in college, last year, this year. If he fixes these 3 he would get minutes even if he never improves anywhere else.
One, in many cases he doesn't try to catch a rebound...he punches the ball. He looks like a soccer goalie punching a shot away from the basket. If he was punching it to a team mate, that would be one thing, but he isn't his just punching it away and it usually ends up in the other team's hands.
Two, he plays "excuse me" ball when he tries to rebound. He'll get his hands on the ball, but if *anybody*...team mate or opponent can get their hands on the ball, too, *they* will come away with it. This is an attitude thing. Good rebounders are selfish and aggressive..."that ball is mine, *every* ball is mine! Get the hell away from it, it's mine!" Melo is more like, "Oh, okay, it's yours." He has got to *take* all the 50/50 balls, rip them out of any and everybody's hands.
That leads to three, he's just too darn nice. He doesn't seem to ever get mad or even really aggressive. Heck, Melo is huge, he would scare the heck out of the average guy just standing there, but do you think he scares *anybody* on the court? I don't want him to be mean, but he needs to whack a few people, throw a hip or two, shove somebody out of the way, get into someone and challenge them. If he would do that, be aggressive, even occasionally it would improve his effectiveness on the floor by 50%!
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Some of you need to lay off Melo a bit. Realize where he came from, what he's adjusting to, etc. We all want immediate results but when you've played as little basketball as him, played in a zone system virtually your entire career, you're not going to have the IQ of Bird, etc. immediately against NBA competition. You need a couple years to learn the game, system, NBA, etc.
It's going to be a long learning process for FAB. Most on here are judging him from a finished product standpoint. Why ? Judge him 3/4 years down the road.
If he's willing to put in the work, which most are stating that he is, than why not wait ? He's got the ability to at the very least be a solid 10-15 minute backup guy who will be a presence inside.
I look immediately for the improvements based on last years limited play when I watch these games. Immediately what jumped out at me yesterday ? He seemed more athletic going for rebounds than the year prior. He lost some, don't get me wrong, & he still needs to improve, but there were substantial differences based on last years limited time in action.
So what you're saying is that we won't be able to tell whether he's an NBA contributor until he's 27 or so? In this case, I'd ditch the project right away, it's just not worth the investment.
A common trend in promising players (and we've had some of these, think Delonte West, Tony Allen, Glen Davis, Leon Powe, even Rondo) is that even though they're far from a finished product initially, they usually a useful way to contribute. If we have to wait for 3 years for Melo to get to this stage, that's not a good return on investment.
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Some of you need to lay off Melo a bit. Realize where he came from, what he's adjusting to, etc. We all want immediate results but when you've played as little basketball as him, played in a zone system virtually your entire career, you're not going to have the IQ of Bird, etc. immediately against NBA competition. You need a couple years to learn the game, system, NBA, etc.
It's going to be a long learning process for FAB. Most on here are judging him from a finished product standpoint. Why ? Judge him 3/4 years down the road.
If he's willing to put in the work, which most are stating that he is, than why not wait ? He's got the ability to at the very least be a solid 10-15 minute backup guy who will be a presence inside.
I look immediately for the improvements based on last years limited play when I watch these games. Immediately what jumped out at me yesterday ? He seemed more athletic going for rebounds than the year prior. He lost some, don't get me wrong, & he still needs to improve, but there were substantial differences based on last years limited time in action.
So what you're saying is that we won't be able to tell whether he's an NBA contributor until he's 27 or so? In this case, I'd ditch the project right away, it's just not worth the investment.
A common trend in promising players (and we've had some of these, think Delonte West, Tony Allen, Glen Davis, Leon Powe, even Rondo) is that even though they're far from a finished product initially, they usually a useful way to contribute. If we have to wait for 3 years for Melo to get to this stage, that's not a good return on investment.
I'd say more like 25 actually. A year after next. You won't be ditching that type of project based on his age.
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im am a big melo supporter but id give him 2 more years. He's 7 feet tall, doesnt take any amount of knowledge to realize you have to take the ball up strong when you'e in position to dunk. the rest of the stuff can be taught but he really needs his confidence built up. cant blame him for riding the bench thw whole year insteqd of learning in the d league
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I'd say more like 25 actually. A year after next. You won't be ditching that type of project based on his age.
His contract expires when he's 25 regardless. At least we would know whether to tender him I guess :P
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Melo at 25 will be change profession and become a volleyball player. He is playing the wrong sport
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the dude sux, period
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I too thought FAB had played poorly in the first half after watching it the first time.
I chose to watch it again to really see if he was "that bad", I took a few notes.
The quarters in SL are 10mins long, Melo started the game and first went out at the 5:50 mark, up until that point he had 1 mistake during his PT.
FAB got himself into EXCELLENT position down low on almost every offensive possession before he went out. He sealed his man setting u deep in the paint, HE NEVER TOUCHED THE BALL! The guards didn't pass him the ball at all and he was WIDE OPEN on most occasions, he also gave them notice by jumping up and down, screaming, and waiving his arms... he didn't receive ONE pass! It was so bad that on a break FAB was wide open and instead of the guard feeding him he forced it and luckily drew a foul on the Mage but it was undoubtedly the WRONG play... this is SL so the guards are all for themselves! FAB is the one who gave a slight pick to get Oly that 3 from the wing. He set so many good screens it seemed like every possession. One time he screened two Mage, effectively clearing the paint for a wide open drive by a guard (can't remember their names, might have been Nolan Smith), the thing is the guard fumbled/had the ball nearly poked away which gave the Mage time to recover and close the paint! He was always moving on offense, screening, rolling, sealing deep in the post.
Defensively he moved very well. He and Oly kept them out of the paint all but ONE possession where they scored, which came from FABs only mistake during his first run. He was guarding his man Osby near the charity stripe and had his hands down, Osby whipped a pass to a cutting teammate for the lay in. FAB immediately raised his hands and tapped his chest to say my fault for having my hands down! One Mage possession FAB was switched onto Oladipo and he set up to go at FAB. FAB moved laterally very well and stayed in front of Oladipo who tried to go around him... FAB was staying with him but it was cut short b/c the Mage set an illegal screen or something for a foul.
I mean, he played EXCELLENT those first minutes but it went unnoticed b/c he wasn't being passed the ball and on defense he wasn't blocking shots. He played as well as you would want from your center and he stayed active even though they ignored him EVERY TIME!
Eh, I'm too lazy to finish this.
I'll just say he wasn't bad!
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Some of you need to lay off Melo a bit. Realize where he came from, what he's adjusting to, etc. We all want immediate results but when you've played as little basketball as him, played in a zone system virtually your entire career, you're not going to have the IQ of Bird, etc. immediately against NBA competition. You need a couple years to learn the game, system, NBA, etc.
It's going to be a long learning process for FAB. Most on here are judging him from a finished product standpoint. Why ? Judge him 3/4 years down the road.
If he's willing to put in the work, which most are stating that he is, than why not wait ? He's got the ability to at the very least be a solid 10-15 minute backup guy who will be a presence inside.
I look immediately for the improvements based on last years limited play when I watch these games. Immediately what jumped out at me yesterday ? He seemed more athletic going for rebounds than the year prior. He lost some, don't get me wrong, & he still needs to improve, but there were substantial differences based on last years limited time in action.
So what you're saying is that we won't be able to tell whether he's an NBA contributor until he's 27 or so? In this case, I'd ditch the project right away, it's just not worth the investment.
A common trend in promising players (and we've had some of these, think Delonte West, Tony Allen, Glen Davis, Leon Powe, even Rondo) is that even though they're far from a finished product initially, they usually a useful way to contribute. If we have to wait for 3 years for Melo to get to this stage, that's not a good return on investment.
I'd say more like 25 actually. A year after next. You won't be ditching that type of project based on his age.
Colton Iverson is 24, a year older than Fab. Comments about him have been encouraging and optimistic, in part because expectations are based on a newly drafted player drafted in the 2nd round. Since perception is reality it's hard to view Fab differently than you are prone to view him. But for all the reasons given by aingeforthree, I think lightening up on expectations for Fab is probably wise.
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Colton Iverson is 24, a year older than Fab. Comments about him have been encouraging and optimistic, in part because expectations are based on a newly drafted player drafted in the 2nd round. Since perception is reality it's hard to view Fab differently than you are prone to view him. But for all the reasons given by aingeforthree, I think lightening up on expectations for Fab is probably wise.
Colton Iverson was the 53rd pick in a weak draft. If he can come in without any pro experience and perform comparably with Melo (who is a first-rounder with a full year of developmental pro experience), that will be a pretty loud statement about how well Melo is doing. And it has nothing to do with perceptions.
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I'm not down on Melo, but I had realistic expectations in the first place. He'll never be a star. He's not the next Kendrick Perkins.
However, I think he could be a solid 15-minute backup defensive big man - come in, protect the rim, box out his man, and convert the easy stuff around the rim. Think Ian Mahinmi. He needs to work hard on the glass, but I think the rest of that job description is already well within his capabilities.
And that would be a success! That's a good draft pick, in my opinion. If you turn two early-20's picks into a potential long-term starter and a decent backup big, you've done great.
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I'm skeptical of Melo. He needs to work on strengthening his body and improving his coordination and balance. His gait when he runs the floor is weird, and he is often bent over unusually far at the waist instead crouching at the knees.
Hmm... trying to figure out how anyone can bend at one OR the other and not fall over ...
Try it: In order to keep your center of gravity between your feet, if you bend your knees, you have to also bend at the waist and/or ankles, and vice-versa.
(Unless you have something to hold yourself up).
I just spent a few minutes looking at the vids of Fab in this game as well as some D-League highlights, trying to see what it is you are seeing. I couldn't see it. To my eye, I didn't see anything unusual in the way he crouched and moved. I think he is just so long in the body - maybe he just looks odd to you?
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Colton Iverson is 24, a year older than Fab. Comments about him have been encouraging and optimistic, in part because expectations are based on a newly drafted player drafted in the 2nd round. Since perception is reality it's hard to view Fab differently than you are prone to view him. But for all the reasons given by aingeforthree, I think lightening up on expectations for Fab is probably wise.
Colton Iverson was the 53rd pick in a weak draft. If he can come in without any pro experience and perform comparably with Melo (who is a first-rounder with a full year of developmental pro experience), that will be a pretty loud statement about how well Melo is doing. And it has nothing to do with perceptions.
Everything has to do with perceptions (which can be accurate or inaccurate depending upon your perception). 53 is a number with no real meaning. 53 does not mean a person will or won't make an NBA team.
When you look at a 23 year old performing comparably with a 24 year old what in the world difference could it possibly make where they were selected in the draft? They are what they are. We have no way of knowing for sure which one will grow more over the next couple of years -- why rule one out and the other in? Maybe Stevens and his staff can make that determination -- I can't. And I think it could be argued that Fab is off to a much better start to summer league than Colton.
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So- here's my question about Fab Melo. Every time I watch him, he is on the losing end of some embarrassment, and yet he posts a good +/- and he was all-defense for the D-League last year.
I think he's terrible because every time I look at him, he does something totally weak.
Is this a Jack Wilson effect? Jack Wilson is the guy who always played the best defense by making everything look routine, but he never made web gem plays. Derrick Jeter, on the other hand, makes all the flashy plays but is a terrible overall defensive player.
Is Fab Melo quietly doing all the right things? Is Fab Melo a seven foot Jack Wilson and I'm just not seeing it?
Melo is wildly inconsistent...that's what he is.
He makes some spectacularly dumb looking plays, air-balling a hook shot, getting blocked by a guard because he doesn't go up strong on a dunk, passing into the back of an opposing player instead of one of his team mates. He also *looks* almost spastic jumping out to challenge, or going *way* outside to set a pick and then in both cases scrambling like mad to get back in the paint. Melo will rush to one side of the court to challenge a shot, then turn and rush to the other to try to get position on his man.
Then he makes an occasional great play, even two or three in a row, and you see his potential. Smooth hook shot, great position and rebound on defense, followed by a quick cut to the basket for a dunk on an interior pass. The good/great plays appeared to be increasing in frequency in D-League during Dec/Jan, then he got hurt and they fell off when he came back. Yesterday, both good and bad were in evidence.
However, when he isn't playing the Little Girl with the Curl (you know when she was good, she was very good but when she was bad she was awful) he seems to be quietly solid on defense. On offense, he sets screens and attempts to rebound. He has a long way to go there, too, but he seems to be improving on getting/keeping position. I also notice him moving out of his area to grab a rebound or two yesterday.
There are three things Melo does that absolutely flumux me. These are things I've seen from him in college, last year, this year. If he fixes these 3 he would get minutes even if he never improves anywhere else.
One, in many cases he doesn't try to catch a rebound...he punches the ball. He looks like a soccer goalie punching a shot away from the basket. If he was punching it to a team mate, that would be one thing, but he isn't his just punching it away and it usually ends up in the other team's hands.
Two, he plays "excuse me" ball when he tries to rebound. He'll get his hands on the ball, but if *anybody*...team mate or opponent can get their hands on the ball, too, *they* will come away with it. This is an attitude thing. Good rebounders are selfish and aggressive..."that ball is mine, *every* ball is mine! Get the hell away from it, it's mine!" Melo is more like, "Oh, okay, it's yours." He has got to *take* all the 50/50 balls, rip them out of any and everybody's hands.
That leads to three, he's just too darn nice. He doesn't seem to ever get mad or even really aggressive. Heck, Melo is huge, he would scare the heck out of the average guy just standing there, but do you think he scares *anybody* on the court? I don't want him to be mean, but he needs to whack a few people, throw a hip or two, shove somebody out of the way, get into someone and challenge them. If he would do that, be aggressive, even occasionally it would improve his effectiveness on the floor by 50%!
I love that phrase- "excuse me" ball. Well said. Melo plays in the paint like a polite lummox trying to find his seat in coach. You nailed it. Tommy point
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Hopefully the new coach and staff can teach these kids how to play basketball better than the River's group.
HOW DARE YOU MAKE THOSE COMMENTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
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Melo is a project. I have been a harsh critic of his but I concede his offensive moves look better. He is still a weak rebounder though. He has a long way to go but at least he did not regress. Getting blocked on dunks is a no no it magnifies his weakness even more when it is a SG that blocked him.
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Iverson is ahead of him right now IMO. Melo is not the brightest light on the street and it shows in his play. It's very hard to fix stupid!
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Hopefully the new coach and staff can teach these kids how to play basketball better than the River's group.
HOW DARE YOU MAKE THOSE COMMENTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
Sorry, sorry, sorry!!! Ubuntu!!!!
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Hopefully the new coach and staff can teach these kids how to play basketball better than the River's group.
HOW DARE YOU MAKE THOSE COMMENTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
Sorry, sorry, sorry!!! Ubuntu!!!!
I thought the Rivers group just gave court side seats to young people as long as they put on a Celtics uniform....watch and cheer as if you were an almost player....like Terrance Williams, Fab melo...and many more.....Fab said yesterday that doc never held any practices so he never knew anything about anyone..except his fav players...
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Melo just needs some patience and someone to work with him. I think Doc is your classic vet's coach, couldn't care less about developing guys unless they were undersized bigs he could fit into the role he loved next to KG.
Fab needs some reps. I frankly think it's amazing he's in the NBA given his obvious lack of experience.
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Hopefully the new coach and staff can teach these kids how to play basketball better than the River's group.
I think that is part of the reason Stevens was hired...because he and his assistants have proven to be very good at taking average to poor basketball recruits and teaching them the skills needed to be successful. The C's have several guys with more physical abilities than anybody Stevens has had on his team, ever.
I think the hope is that he can take Olynyk (with one real year of work as a big man) and Melo and develop their skills. In Melo's case see if he can train up his instincts.
Also, maybe work on guys like Brooks and Crawford and turn them into smarter, team-oriented basketball players. I mean, both Brooks and Crawford have the physical abilities to be excellent offensive *and* defensive guards, but neither are...mostly because of deficits between their ears. They aren't dumb, though, and could learn if they are approached right and motivated.
Butler's recruits were not poor and most of them were better than average. That said, Stevens did an amazing job with that program.
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i think he's garbage. saw him play yesterday and thought he looked like a typical nba journeyman stiff.
being a arizona alum, he reminds me of loren woods. the only thing i like about Melo is that he's Brazilian. For some reason, that gives me a shred of hope.