CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: LarBrd33 on June 16, 2013, 04:38:48 PM
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The way it seems to me is that Boston has all the leverage.
First let's get a couple things out of the way. THis draft is supposed to be terrible. I'm normally all about acquiring draft picks, but if this draft is as bad as everyone says and a late 1st rounder is equal to an average 2nd rounder in a normal draft... who cares whether or we get the picks or not. We're talking about D-league talent here. Is it better to have D-League talent on guaranteed contracts... or would you rather just use the roster spots to sign some D-leaguers to non-guaranteed deals? Whatever.
#2 - Jordan makes 10 mil this year and 11 mil next year. He's a 25 year old big man who just averaged 3 points, 6 boards and 1 block in the playoffs. He's not an impact player. He's kind of overpaid. Theoretically, if you had 10 million dollars in cap space... you probably wouldn't want to spend it on DeAndre Jordan.
#3 - Bledsoe. Meh. I don't get the fascination, but maybe it's just me. He's a backup guard. And regardless, the Clippers don't seem at all willing to trade him.
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So we're talking about trading KG and buying out Pierce so we can get the above bag of "meh" assets. Boston has Doc under contract for 3 seasons with a no-compete clause... so he can't coach another team unless we LET him coach another team.
The threat is that the Clippers will walk away and hire Lionel Hollins... and that Boston will be stuck with "nothing". Let me ask you... does that really even matter? Would be be so bad to get stuck with "nothing"?
Clearly we'd do this trade in an effort to tank. And hope that the marginal Jordan/late 1st rounder assets would be worth something. But if we do this deal, we're still over the cap. We'll still be over the cap next year as well. Rondo + green + jordan + bass + Lee + Terry + Bradley + rookies ... you're over the cap.
So what happens if things break down here? Doc threatens retirement? Ok. Would KG follow him out the door? Fine. Would Pierce follow him as well? Cool. Big deal. WE don't get overpaid Jordan and a couple weak rookies on a par with D-Leaguers.
Either way, we're tanking for Wiggins. Either way, we're trying to lose games next year in an effort to jump-start this franchise with a top 5 pick in 2014. But the idea of Doc, KG and Pierce just "walking away" actually sounds somewhat appealing. In that theoretical scenario, you'd actually only have Rondo 12 mil, Green 9 mil, Bass 6.4 mil, Lee 5.2 mil, Terry 5.2 mil, Bradley 2.5 mil, 16th pick 1.6 mil, Crawford 2 mil = about 44 million dollars. With a cap set at 58 million... doesn't that mean we'd actually theoretically have cap space to offer Josh Smith or Big Al?
Then the question really boils down to... would you rather have DeAndre Jordan making 11 mil and some crappy late 1st roudner in this draft.. or would you rather just see KG, Doc, and Pierce all retire and have enough cap space to sign Josh Smith or Big Al?
Think about it. Who has the leverage here? You want to retire? Good! Even better than that garbage trade we were considering. And then we don't have to watch you try to win a title in LA. Am I wrong?
And Btw, hopefully from the CLippers perspective they can convince CHris Paul to sign with them when they plan on hiring Hollins and not bringing in Doc and KG. Good luck there, LA.
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I think the Clippers have all the leverage.
They have already had other offers for Bledsoe.
It has been reported that KG would only go to the Clippers.So we have one option and they have multiple.
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I think the Clippers have all the leverage.
They have already had other offers for Bledsoe.
It has been reported that KG would only go to the Clippers.So we have one option and they have multiple.
WHy do we only have one option. We could just hang onto KG. If KG wants to retire... cool. Who cares? We aren't missing out on anything substantial. Bledsoe isn't a big deal and he's not a possibility anyways... the Clippers aren't interested in trading him.
Again, it boils down to... would you rather trade KG (and buy out Pierce so he can join the Clippers) for Jordan and be stuck with him making 10-11 mil a year? Or would you rather see KG and Pierce retire and use cap space on whatever you want.
If Doc quits to become a broadcaster, KG is very likely to retire. If KG and Doc are gone, Pierce probably calls it quits as well. Then suddenly you have about 14 million in cap space that you can spend however you see fit... as opposed to having nothing but DeAndre Jordan and some garbage D-Leaguers for some wonky trade where we sent KG, Pierce and Doc to the Clippers.
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I think the Clippers have all the leverage.
They have already had other offers for Bledsoe.
It has been reported that KG would only go to the Clippers.So we have one option and they have multiple.
It feels like you didn't even bother to read the OP. We have the option to do nothing, which may be a better option than the LAC trade.
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I think the Clippers have all the leverage.
They have already had other offers for Bledsoe.
It has been reported that KG would only go to the Clippers.So we have one option and they have multiple.
Clippers have zero leverage none what's so ever. I don't get why people keeping saying that we are going to a rebuilding mode anyways so we have to lose by letting Kg retire along with Paul pierce . Nothing. The Original poster explained it perfectly. I rather do that than get this garbage of an offer from the clippers.
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I think the Clippers have all the leverage.
They have already had other offers for Bledsoe.
It has been reported that KG would only go to the Clippers.So we have one option and they have multiple.
If we *really* want to make *this* deal, then yeah, the Clippers have the leverage. OTOH, what if we don't really care that much?
What we seem to know is this: KG will go to the Clippers; Doc is interested in going there; and CP3 seems to want them there. We can also assume that Danny, Wyc and the Celtics have decided that starting the rebuild *now* is a top option. Perhaps not the only option, but a (or the) top option.
Danny is exploring a way to get both KG and Doc where they want to go, but he wants something in return. We want to get some useful assets for doing the Clippers and two (or three if Pierce is involved) guys a good turn. If the Clips won't cough up what Danny wants, he can just walk away and move on to the next option on his list. No telling what that might be.
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one of the few times I agree with you -- for the most part.
I don't agree that next year they'd be in the lottery. If Rondo and Sully are back playing at the level they played at last year, Green seems to be on track now and a rotation-quality player with #16 added this year, this team gets back in the playoffs. Also, I'd be surprised if one of AB, JET, Lee or Crawford doesn't find his shot next year and establishes themselves as the primary 2 guard-->too many guys that just couldn't find the bottom of the bucket all at the same time.
if PP and KG then retire, figure a probable lottery team for the 2015 draft which figures to be pretty good if for no other reason than the good players who pull out of the 2014 draft to increase their draft slots significantly. Maybe no Wiggins or Parker but some really good cornerstone prospects.
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I have purposely stayed out of these talks. I think what sparked most of our interest is the original deal involving Bledsoe/Jordan/2 first rounders. I think most of us would balk at what turned out to be Jordan and a 1st rounder.
When it comes to the 1st deal, Boston does not really have much leverage. Clippers can simply walk away and say no thanks. This in turn does not destroy Boston or make us horrible but we have no way to leverage them into a deal.
Whether you're a fan of Bledsoe or not, he has significant trade value and LA could simply trade him for something else.
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The claim about having the necessary cap space to sign a big free agent if PP and KG retire is false though. With cap holds, we would have way less than 10m in cap space. We'd have to move at least one of our mid-size contracts for nothing.
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Yep, Boston has all the leverage here, and the Clippers know it, and they hate it. That's why they are the ones leaking out all these bits and pieces to the media, to try to push perception in their favor. They are the ones who leaked the original story out, and then leaked out that "Ainge is asking for a king's ransom" and that "the Clippers won't budge".
Really? A king's ransom? Bledsoe and Jordan are not Anthony Davis or Ricky Rubio, and two picks in the 24-30 range are nothing to cry about either. It's offensive to consider trading KG for DeAndre Jordan and a late pick.
They are the ones that desperately need this trade to keep Chris Paul. The celtics can do nothing, let KG and Pierce retire or leave, and are fine either way.
This is exactly why Ainge should not budge at all, excellent explanation in the first post, TP.
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There shouldn't be any pressure for Boston to make a move. We have Doc, KG and Pierce under contract. They can either play here next season (a lot of fans would be happy with that)... or they can all retire and we can use the 14 mil in cap space to sign someone like Big Al or Smith... or just hang onto it for next season.
There should be considerable pressure for the Clippers, though. There is no guarantee that Chris Paul resigns. He could go to Dallas. He could go to Houston. He could go to Atlanta. One or two small tweaks to a roster like Dallas and both he and Dwight could join a team together. Meanwhile, Chris apparently doesn't like playing with Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan. He clashes with them frequently. And they currently don't even have a coach. The pressure is all on the Clippers... Chris apparently is the one driving for them to bring in Doc and KG (and Pierce). Chris is apparently the reason the Clippers are interested in trading Griffin and Bledsoe for Howard. ALL the pressure is on the Clippers. They should be desperate to do anything they need to convince Chris Paul to resign with them. Boston doesn't have to do squat. WE can hang onto our guys or they can retire. Either way, we good. If the Clippers don't do something drastic, THEY are the one who stands to lose in a big way (if Chris flees).
Also... I'll say it again. If Chris Paul is that desperate to be coached by Doc Rivers and play with KG and Pierce... if I'm Danny Ainge I call the CLippers and say, "Hey... since our trade fell apart and you guys might lose Chris for nothing. I just want to let you know that we're willing to trade you Rajon Rondo if you can convince Chris to agree to a sign-and-trade with Boston. I figured you'd guys rather have Rondo (broken ACL and all) than get stuck with nothing. Lemme know. All my love - Danny"
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I have purposely stayed out of these talks. I think what sparked most of our interest is the original deal involving Bledsoe/Jordan/2 first rounders. I think most of us would balk at what turned out to be Jordan and a 1st rounder.
When it comes to the 1st deal, Boston does not really have much leverage. Clippers can simply walk away and say no thanks. This in turn does not destroy Boston or make us horrible but we have no way to leverage them into a deal.
Whether you're a fan of Bledsoe or not, he has significant trade value and LA could simply trade him for something else.
That's not the point. The point is that this trade for the Clippers is about making Chris Paul happy enough to re-sign. There are not any other reasonable options out there for them to do so. Would getting Afflialo for Bledsoe convince Paul to re-sign when he has already stated he wants KG and Doc? I don't think so,
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The claim about having the necessary cap space to sign a big free agent if PP and KG retire is false though. With cap holds, we would have way less than 10m in cap space. We'd have to move at least one of our mid-size contracts for nothing.
Elaborate. If Kg and PIerce retire, don't they fall off the books? Count up who is left under contract and it's about 44 mil. WHy would there be a cap hold if they retire?
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exactly, doc certifies cp3 stays.
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There shouldn't be any pressure for Boston to make a move. We have Doc, KG and Pierce under contract. They can either player here next season (a lot of fans would be happy with that)... or they can all retire and we can use the 14 mil in cap space to sign someone like Big Al or Smith... or just hang onto it for next season.
There should be considerable pressure for the Clippers, though. There is no guarantee that Chris Paul resigns. He could go to Dallas. He could go to Houston. He could go to Atlanta. One or two small tweaks to a roster like Dallas and both he and Dwight could join a team together. Meanwhile, Chris apparently doesn't like playing with Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan. He clashes with them frequently. And they currently don't even have a coach. The pressure is all on the Clippers... Chris apparently is the one driving for them to bring in Doc and KG (and Pierce). Chris is apparently the reason the Clippers are interested in trading Griffin and Bledsoe for Howard. ALL the pressure is on the Clippers. They should be desperate to do anything they need to convince Chris Paul to resign with them. Boston doesn't have to do squat. WE can hang onto our guys or they can retire. Either way, we good. If the Clippers don't do something drastic, THEY are the one who stands to lose in a big way (if Chris flees).
Also... I'll say it again. If Chris Paul is that desperate to be coached by Doc Rivers and play with KG and Pierce... if I'm Danny Ainge I call the CLippers and say, "Hey... since our trade fell apart and you guys might lose Chris for nothing. I just want to let you know that we're willing to trade you Rajon Rondo if you can convince Chris to agree to a sign-and-trade with Boston. I figured you'd guys rather have Rondo (broken ACL and all) than get stuck with nothing. Lemme know. All my love - Danny"
Well put. We could even help Dallas or Houston get enough cap space to sign Howard or Paul by trading them Pierce before his buyout date. If I were Ainge, I would tell the Clippers if you don't like our deal, then we will consider Dallas' interest in acquiring Pierce's contract, which they actually did consider last season before the trade deadline.
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The claim about having the necessary cap space to sign a big free agent if PP and KG retire is false though. With cap holds, we would have way less than 10m in cap space. We'd have to move at least one of our mid-size contracts for nothing.
You're right about the cap space. It probably doesn't matter to Danny *this* year, too much, though. I'd expect that if Doc, PP and KG retire the C's will not look to bring in any long term replacements. In fact, I'd expect the C's to move Terry for an expiring contract. In this case, a defacto tank would probably make sense for one year...yuck, but probably the best option.
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There shouldn't be any pressure for Boston to make a move. We have Doc, KG and Pierce under contract. They can either player here next season (a lot of fans would be happy with that)... or they can all retire and we can use the 14 mil in cap space to sign someone like Big Al or Smith... or just hang onto it for next season.
There should be considerable pressure for the Clippers, though. There is no guarantee that Chris Paul resigns. He could go to Dallas. He could go to Houston. He could go to Atlanta. One or two small tweaks to a roster like Dallas and both he and Dwight could join a team together. Meanwhile, Chris apparently doesn't like playing with Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan. He clashes with them frequently. And they currently don't even have a coach. The pressure is all on the Clippers... Chris apparently is the one driving for them to bring in Doc and KG (and Pierce). Chris is apparently the reason the Clippers are interested in trading Griffin and Bledsoe for Howard. ALL the pressure is on the Clippers. They should be desperate to do anything they need to convince Chris Paul to resign with them. Boston doesn't have to do squat. WE can hang onto our guys or they can retire. Either way, we good. If the Clippers don't do something drastic, THEY are the one who stands to lose in a big way (if Chris flees).
Also... I'll say it again. If Chris Paul is that desperate to be coached by Doc Rivers and play with KG and Pierce... if I'm Danny Ainge I call the CLippers and say, "Hey... since our trade fell apart and you guys might lose Chris for nothing. I just want to let you know that we're willing to trade you Rajon Rondo if you can convince Chris to agree to a sign-and-trade with Boston. I figured you'd guys rather have Rondo (broken ACL and all) than get stuck with nothing. Lemme know. All my love - Danny"
Well put. We could even help Dallas or Houston get enough cap space to sign Howard or Paul by trading them Pierce before his buyout date. If I were Ainge, I would tell the Clippers if you don't like our deal, then we will consider Dallas' interest in acquiring Pierce's contract, which they actually did consider last season before the trade deadline.
Yeah Dallas is apparently willing to give up their #14 pick if it will bring them cap space. If we traded them Pierce for Marion (expiring), Carter (expiring) and Cunninghman (meh young player) + the #14... the Mavs could then buy out Pierce and they would have Dirk 22.7 mil the remainder of Pierce's bought out contract (5 mil) ... and that's about it. OJ Mayo is opting out. It would give Mark Cuban about 30 million in cap space to sign both Dwight and Chris Paul and pair them with Dirk for one year... then Dirk has already agreed to take a significant paycut after next season.. so they'd have max cap space to go after a 2014 free agent class headlined by Lebron james.
I could see the Clippers deal heading to a point where Boston agreeing to buy out Pierce (so he can join the Clippers) is part of the deal.
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I have purposely stayed out of these talks. I think what sparked most of our interest is the original deal involving Bledsoe/Jordan/2 first rounders. I think most of us would balk at what turned out to be Jordan and a 1st rounder.
When it comes to the 1st deal, Boston does not really have much leverage. Clippers can simply walk away and say no thanks. This in turn does not destroy Boston or make us horrible but we have no way to leverage them into a deal.
Whether you're a fan of Bledsoe or not, he has significant trade value and LA could simply trade him for something else.
That's not the point. The point is that this trade for the Clippers is about making Chris Paul happy enough to re-sign. There are not any other reasonable options out there for them to do so. Would getting Afflialo for Bledsoe convince Paul to re-sign when he has already stated he wants KG and Doc? I don't think so,
Is there a quote out where CP says he specifically wants Doc and KG? I haven't seen one.
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Callie Rivers has more leverage than anyone
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I've always liked Josh Smith, but the last thing we need is another athletic player who can't shoot. I'd rather not get Smith with that $14M (doubt he'd take that anyways), and try and trade Lee, Terry, and Bass. Basically, let KG, Pierce, and Doc retire, now that we know LAC probably won't give us Bledsoe, trade Terry, Lee, and Bass for...something. Doesn't really matter to me. Probably some expirings. Use the HUGE amount of cap space to sign one or two "second-tier" players, and STILL have the cap to add some impact role players.
I think that we should try and do whatever it takes to make it so that our only players under contract are Rondo, T-Will, Bradley, Crawford, Green, Sully, Shav, and Melo.
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The claim about having the necessary cap space to sign a big free agent if PP and KG retire is false though. With cap holds, we would have way less than 10m in cap space. We'd have to move at least one of our mid-size contracts for nothing.
Elaborate. If Kg and PIerce retire, don't they fall off the books? Count up who is left under contract and it's about 44 mil. WHy would there be a cap hold if they retire?
It's a cap hold on the roster slots, not the players. I think you've got to have under contract, or min-contract cap holds, for 15 (maybe it's 14) players. So, if 8 players under contract add up to 44 million, you still have to hold a bit under 7 million for the other roster slots. That would bring us up to about 50 million.
I think that's right.
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Also... I'll say it again. If Chris Paul is that desperate to be coached by Doc Rivers and play with KG and Pierce... if I'm Danny Ainge I call the CLippers and say, "Hey... since our trade fell apart and you guys might lose Chris for nothing. I just want to let you know that we're willing to trade you Rajon Rondo if you can convince Chris to agree to a sign-and-trade with Boston. I figured you'd guys rather have Rondo (broken ACL and all) than get stuck with nothing. Lemme know. All my love - Danny"
That's a slick idea. But if this deal would solidify Paul staying, why would they not just agree to it? Then they don't need to trade him for Rondo. They'd clearly prefer letting Bledsoe go to keep Paul than replace Paul with Rondo... and that seems to be within their power.
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Agreed with OP. Ainge is in the drivers seat. And I personally believe he will win this stand-off. If somehow this deal doesn't happen and CP3 leaves then everyone in the Clippers front office will probably be fired.
I don't believe buying out pierce is part of this. He'd be used in another trade more then likely.
TP to OP
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MT
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If the Clips would trade Bledsoe and Griffin to the Lakers for Howard in a S and T, why not trade Griffin and end up with Howard and CP3, with Howard weakening the Lakers by leaving with no compensation?
Clips trade Jordan to Boston for KG. Clips get Doc for a second round pick. Clips trade Griffin for Paul Pierce, then cut Pierce and have enough cap room for both Howard and CP3. They still have Bledsoe and Crawford, and can fill their roster with vetmin ring chasers (Ray Allen if he opts out?, Brand, Kamen, Barnes, Billups).
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If the Clips would trade Bledsoe and Griffin to the Lakers for Howard in a S and T, why not trade Griffin and end up with Howard and CP3, with Howard weakening the Lakers by leaving with no compensation?
Clips trade Jordan to Boston for KG. Clips get Doc for a second round pick. Clips trade Griffin for Paul Pierce, then cut Pierce and have enough cap room for both Howard and CP3. They still have Bledsoe and Crawford, and can fill their roster with vetmin ring chasers (Ray Allen if he opts out?, Brand, Kamen, Barnes, Billups).
Interesting idea, but it wouldn't work. I gave it some thought. Would you assume Chris Paul would take a paycut? I think since they have his bird rights if they extend him he'll have a contract starting at 18 mil per year.
So you have CP3 = 18 mil
KG = 12.4 mil
Butler = 8 mil
Crawford = 5.2 mil
Bledsoe = 2.6 mil
W Green = 1.4 mil
That alone is 47.6 mil
Blake makes 15 mil. If you did your Blake for Pierce pipe dream where they'd buy out Pierce it adds another 5 mil and it = 52.6 mil ... not to mention they no longer get to have Pierce on the roster. And it only leaves like 6 million to sign Dwight Howard. Even if Chris took a pay cut it wouldn't work. Cute idea, though.
What they'd like to do is give Chris as much money as he wants (contract starting at 18 mil?) and then trade Griffin and Bledsoe for a sign-and-traded Dwight (so he can make max as well)... and then trade DeAndre Jordan for KG and sign a bought-out Pierce for the MLE or something.
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I think Boston is in a pretty solid position. Danny just needs to hold firm. If he gets DJ, EB and two 1sts (actually, I'd prefer one 1st - 2014), then it's a nice haul for the C's and good start to the rebuild effort. If no EB, he should just say no -- mainly for the reasons stated in the original post. I'll add that you never know what will happen if talks break down with the Clips. There will likely be another team interested in dealing for Doc.
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Reason Clippers want Bledsoe is not because Rivers wants to coach him , thats smoke, they absolutely NEED Bledsoe as trade bait with Blake Griffin to get Dwight Howard.
The ONLY trade chance they have to get Dwight Howard is a SLIM one based on trading Bledsoe and Griffin for Howard..... they need this to also appease CP3 and Howard apparent marriage to each other .
Problem is Danny wants him too as part of the Celtics compensation pkg.
So it up to the CLippers , take Hollins and HOPE LA takes Bledsoe and Griffin for Howard or Get Doc and KG and hope and pray CP3 doesn't bolt with DH to Houston
Clippers are hoping Celtics ( DA) will give up on Bledsoe , because there is ZERO chance Lakers will .
If I'm DANNY I makem pay out the wahzoo , get bledsoe and take JETS contract or NO DOC period to Clippers .
CP3 will follow DH if he is allowed to walk to Houston , Clippers know that and this will screw up all their plans .
I think Lakers and Boston should sit tight and let the pot boil .
At the least both Boston and Lakers will be rid of a bunch of money when their aging stars depart. Might be better to wait it out ONE MORE YEAR
Most of this group of chaos will end in a couple weeks when DH is a free agent or resigns with Lakers.
WITHOUT GLEN RIVERS .... ;D
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The problem with the OP's idea is that it is predicated on the false pretense that we could use the money saved from KG and PP leaving to go after a free agent, which is unfortunately not true. Check it:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2013/2/14/3988242/cap-questions-could-josh-smith-replace-kg-and-pierce
Basically we would be stuck with our current roster and enough money to make some minor moves, but nothing like the max deals of Josh Smith or Big Al you suggest (its possible, but HIGHLY unlikely and wouldn't benefit us long-term).
If we want to tank hardcore then yeah that probably does it, but thats an awful strategy.
Too many people have the wrong idea about what we could potentially do if KG and PP retire.
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If we make the trade, we wont be in the lottery next season..we still be better than Orlando, Charlotte, Detroit, Toronto, Washington, Cleveland, 76'ers, Atlanta
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The problem with the OP's idea is that it is predicated on the false pretense that we could use the money saved from KG and PP leaving to go after a free agent, which is unfortunately not true. Check it:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2013/2/14/3988242/cap-questions-could-josh-smith-replace-kg-and-pierce
Basically we would be stuck with our current roster and enough money to make some minor moves, but nothing like the max deals of Josh Smith or Big Al you suggest (its possible, but HIGHLY unlikely and wouldn't benefit us long-term).
If we want to tank hardcore then yeah that probably does it, but thats an awful strategy.
Too many people have the wrong idea about what we could potentially do if KG and PP retire.
thanks for the link. a very interesting article. the most interesting part was the "stretch" payments allowed by a waiver. if ainge really wants to make changes and pick up free agents, then shedding the salaries of bass and terry, or both, are possible.
a point not mentioned in the article was whether bass could be amnestied. i am not sure on that one.
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i feel like the idea here is that KG and PP are going to retire.
says who? not this year
and if you're trying to rebuild, you want to get something for something.
i dont think i understand the argument here
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Great post, TP.
1. We bring Sully & Rondo back healthy, Pierce and KG play another season. With Green coming on, I say we're a top four team in the east , second round in the playoffs, or with a little luck ECF's - long shot at the finals.
But overall a competitive, entertaining team.
2. If KG retires and Doc walks, the rebuilding is on - we're probably a lottery team next year in a "loaded" draft.
The Clippers?
Personally, assuming that Pierce being bought out and signed with the mid level with the clips is the wink wink - if I was them I would be all over a KG, Lee, Terry for Jordan, Bledsoe and Butler deal and I'd throw in the two picks as well. Zero hesitation. Zero.
KG / free agent center (5-6 mil) / Chris Wilcox
Blake Griffin / Lamar odom
Pierce / Barnes
Lee / Jamaal Crawford / Willie Green
Chris Paul / Jason terry / Chancey Billups
Jordan is up in two years anyway. KG will have a "huge" impact on the interior defense of that team.
Bledsoe, really LA? With Chris Paul playing 38 minutes, you need a decent back up vet point (Terry, Billups will do fine.
KG and Pierce & Doc coaching give about 300% great chances to win a title than Jordan, Bledsoe and a couple rookie draft picks do.
You reload when KG and Pierce retire.
If I'm Boston, I lay my deal on the table and other than maybe moving a draft pick back, I don't budge. Pierce and KG can retire next year, I'll use the cap.
We have all the leverage - the Clippers have way more to lose than we do.
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Great post, TP.
1. We bring Sully & Rondo back healthy, Pierce and KG play another season. With Green coming on, I say we're a top four team in the east , second round in the playoffs, or with a little luck ECF's - long shot at the finals.
But overall a competitive, entertaining team.
2. If KG retires and Doc walks, the rebuilding is on - we're probably a lottery team next year in a "loaded" draft.
The Clippers?
Personally, assuming that Pierce being bought out and signed with the mid level with the clips is the wink wink - if I was them I would be all over a KG, Lee, Terry for Jordan, Bledsoe and Butler deal and I'd throw in the two picks as well. Zero hesitation. Zero.
KG / free agent center (5-6 mil) / Chris Wilcox
Blake Griffin / Lamar odom
Pierce / Barnes
Lee / Jamaal Crawford / Willie Green
Chris Paul / Jason terry / Chancey Billups
Jordan is up in two years anyway. KG will have a "huge" impact on the interior defense of that team.
Bledsoe, really LA? With Chris Paul playing 38 minutes, you need a decent back up vet point (Terry, Billups will do fine.
KG and Pierce & Doc coaching give about 300% great chances to win a title than Jordan, Bledsoe and a couple rookie draft picks do.
You reload when KG and Pierce retire.
If I'm Boston, I lay my deal on the table and other than maybe moving a draft pick back, I don't budge. Pierce and KG can retire next year, I'll use the cap.
We have all the leverage - the Clippers have way more to lose than we do.
Doc isn't coaching this unit (with KG and PP) to the ship with his current game plan.
The problem with Doc and KG and PP and, in turn, the Celtics basketball club as of late is that we're still living in the big 3 area. Which includes a dominant PG, jump shots, no offensive rebounds, small ball, and Ray Allen.
Unless Doc wants to change all this, bring PP off the bench, I don't think we have a chance at another run. And I'm pretty positive Doc isn't going to change his game plan.
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If we make the trade, we wont be in the lottery next season..we still be better than Orlando, Charlotte, Detroit, Toronto, Washington, Cleveland, 76'ers, Atlanta
That is why the right coach is very important. I would have Docs put Sully and Rondo on ice until the damage was done if we are tanking.
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tp
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The leverage holder is ultimately Chris Paul. Having KG next to him (and Doc to an extent) guarantees he signs with LAC again. Those two bring Pierce. Does this mean the Celtics have the leverage? Probably. It depends how bad CP3 is campaigning for KG and Doc to come.
The point for us is that getting Bledsoe and Jordan means we can let them run with Rondo and Green and make them look better than they really are.
We are still a horrid team but Jordan turns into a 10 point 10 rebound guy, getting gifts from Rondo all night. Bledsoe on the floor while Rondo recovers gives him some shine and the ability to run with Green and Bradley (we can even start him as a combo guard). I think he's overrated but that's a league wide opinion that his upside is enormous for some reason..they call him 'mini Lebron' lol.
I don't think Danny wants to win. He wants to replicate 2006 except Rondo is this year's Pierce.
He wants to move Doc because he doesn't want to pay him 7 million a year and he wants to get as bad as possible.
His goal is Wiggins or Parker.
Like the Spurs when Robinson went down. Mini tank. Win 25 games or less. Build value in our scrubs like Jordan and Bradley and Blesdoe.
Bink a top 3 pick. If not, we'll get a nice asset like Jeff Green in 2006 leading to a crapload of assets and capspace when the 2015 free agency class come in.
Who's a free agent then?
Kevin Love
Aldridge
Klay Thompson
Steph Curry
Marc Gasol
That's 2 seasons from now...
We can still suck without Jordan, Bledsoe and 2 firsts but they are fantastic assets in any rebuilding/ future trade value.
Take a shot at Wiggins and Parker. If we get lucky we bink one. If not we have assets, cap space and Rondo desperate to field a winning team as he comes up for contract negotiations.
I think we'd have to move Bass and Terry aswell if KG and Pierce retired. Still not enough cap room. This is why he's going after Wiggins. He's not putting Smith and Rondo as our future to keep Rondo happy. He'd rather burn Rondo and ensure we get a top 3 pick, which is what he may do still.
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None of us know what LAC is thinking but I don't think Chris Paul is going to make his decision based on KG and Doc. Based on rumors, he wants Dwight Howard.
Does anyone really think that if CP3's choices are stay in LA with KG and Doc or go to say Houston with Dwight, that he stays? Or in the reverse, if LAC can pull off a deal to get Dwight (likely involving Griffin), do you think CP3 would still leave because they didn't get KG and Doc?
This only works if LAC can get Howard to keep CP3. If not, they have no need for an expensive coach and an injury prone veteran. I guess option 3 for CP3 could be stay with Griffin, KG and Doc but I gotta think that is at least his 3rd choice, certainly not his first.
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We don't have all the leverage. Trades are mutual.
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None of us know what LAC is thinking but I don't think Chris Paul is going to make his decision based on KG and Doc. Based on rumors, he wants Dwight Howard.
Does anyone really think that if CP3's choices are stay in LA with KG and Doc or go to say Houston with Dwight, that he stays? Or in the reverse, if LAC can pull off a deal to get Dwight (likely involving Griffin), do you think CP3 would still leave because they didn't get KG and Doc?
This only works if LAC can get Howard to keep CP3. If not, they have no need for an expensive coach and an injury prone veteran. I guess option 3 for CP3 could be stay with Griffin, KG and Doc but I gotta think that is at least his 3rd choice, certainly not his first.
The league wide thought is that the Lakers would never give the Clippers Dwight Howard unless Griffin is involved.
The Clippers could realistically have CP3, Pierce, KG and Howard + Doc.
This would be Paul's first choice. Second would be going to Houston with Harden/Howard. (In my opinion).
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None of us know what LAC is thinking but I don't think Chris Paul is going to make his decision based on KG and Doc. Based on rumors, he wants Dwight Howard.
Does anyone really think that if CP3's choices are stay in LA with KG and Doc or go to say Houston with Dwight, that he stays? Or in the reverse, if LAC can pull off a deal to get Dwight (likely involving Griffin), do you think CP3 would still leave because they didn't get KG and Doc?
This only works if LAC can get Howard to keep CP3. If not, they have no need for an expensive coach and an injury prone veteran. I guess option 3 for CP3 could be stay with Griffin, KG and Doc but I gotta think that is at least his 3rd choice, certainly not his first.
The league wide thought is that the Lakers would never give the Clippers Dwight Howard unless Griffin is involved.
The Clippers could realistically have CP3, Pierce, KG and Howard + Doc.
This would be Paul's first choice. Second would be going to Houston with Harden/Howard. (In my opinion).
Realistically? Hmm, I am not so sure. First of all, those 4 players probably cost you close to $55M. Even if this is a possiblity, my point is more about priority. Priority 1 would likely be Howard, not KG and Doc.
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We do have leverage, but neither team has the leverage. This isn't the Carmelo Anthony-Denver Nuggets situation or the Nets-Portland situation (Gerald Wallace for NJ's lottery pick (that turned out to be the 5th pick in Damien Lillard)). Chris Paul has been rumored to be staying with the Clippers by pretty much every notable reporter except for the Paul-Howard uniting rumblings.
For the Clippers: KG and Doc make them a serious title contender for the 2013-14 and possibly 2014-15 season (if KG maintains his current level of play and doesn't retire), but to give up Bledsoe and/or an extra 1st leaves them vulnerable as soon as KG retires.
For the Celtics: DeAndre Jordan and this year's 1st are valuable assets, but it's not enough to make us serious contenders this year or the next (as we would be if it stayed as is). Jordan is limited, but he's 24, is one of the best athlete's and very durable for his size and position, has already proven he can average 8 PPG, 8 RPG, and 2 BPG, he's improving on offense and defense, and you'll get 3 years and the bird rights to him instead of 0-2 years of KG. Even if you don't think he'll improve, he's an asset that can get a return that KG can't. The 1st is also an asset that can in combination with another asset can get the team an established player.
Jordan, a 2013 1st, and a future 1st round pick for KG and Doc should be enough to pull the trigger. The maneuverability of those assets and the ones we already have can field a serious title contender.
Taking a look at their roster, I can see why they're looking to keep Bledsoe and the 1st and I understand the predicament, but I want one or the other in inclusion with Jordan and the 2013 1st or other options have to be looked at even if the other option is to leave it as is.
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There shouldn't be any pressure for Boston to make a move. We have Doc, KG and Pierce under contract. They can either play here next season (a lot of fans would be happy with that)... or they can all retire and we can use the 14 mil in cap space to sign someone like Big Al or Smith... or just hang onto it for next season.
There should be considerable pressure for the Clippers, though. There is no guarantee that Chris Paul resigns. He could go to Dallas. He could go to Houston. He could go to Atlanta. One or two small tweaks to a roster like Dallas and both he and Dwight could join a team together. Meanwhile, Chris apparently doesn't like playing with Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan. He clashes with them frequently. And they currently don't even have a coach. The pressure is all on the Clippers... Chris apparently is the one driving for them to bring in Doc and KG (and Pierce). Chris is apparently the reason the Clippers are interested in trading Griffin and Bledsoe for Howard. ALL the pressure is on the Clippers. They should be desperate to do anything they need to convince Chris Paul to resign with them. Boston doesn't have to do squat. WE can hang onto our guys or they can retire. Either way, we good. If the Clippers don't do something drastic, THEY are the one who stands to lose in a big way (if Chris flees).
Also... I'll say it again. If Chris Paul is that desperate to be coached by Doc Rivers and play with KG and Pierce... if I'm Danny Ainge I call the CLippers and say, "Hey... since our trade fell apart and you guys might lose Chris for nothing. I just want to let you know that we're willing to trade you Rajon Rondo if you can convince Chris to agree to a sign-and-trade with Boston. I figured you'd guys rather have Rondo (broken ACL and all) than get stuck with nothing. Lemme know. All my love - Danny"
I agree with much of this. The Celts lose out on a couple of decent(ish) assets but the Clips lose out on a better chance to bolster their title hopes than they might get for a while.
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I don't think the Celts have much leverage at all.
Remember, other teams might like KG and Doc, but they're not exactly willing to give up an arm and a leg for them.
KG is old and Doc is not exactly this NBA messiah that many make him out to be.
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Great post, TP.
1. We bring Sully & Rondo back healthy, Pierce and KG play another season. With Green coming on, I say we're a top four team in the east , second round in the playoffs, or with a little luck ECF's - long shot at the finals.
But overall a competitive, entertaining team.
2. If KG retires and Doc walks, the rebuilding is on - we're probably a lottery team next year in a "loaded" draft.
The Clippers?
Personally, assuming that Pierce being bought out and signed with the mid level with the clips is the wink wink - if I was them I would be all over a KG, Lee, Terry for Jordan, Bledsoe and Butler deal and I'd throw in the two picks as well. Zero hesitation. Zero.
KG / free agent center (5-6 mil) / Chris Wilcox
Blake Griffin / Lamar odom
Pierce / Barnes
Lee / Jamaal Crawford / Willie Green
Chris Paul / Jason terry / Chancey Billups
Jordan is up in two years anyway. KG will have a "huge" impact on the interior defense of that team.
Bledsoe, really LA? With Chris Paul playing 38 minutes, you need a decent back up vet point (Terry, Billups will do fine.
KG and Pierce & Doc coaching give about 300% great chances to win a title than Jordan, Bledsoe and a couple rookie draft picks do.
You reload when KG and Pierce retire.
If I'm Boston, I lay my deal on the table and other than maybe moving a draft pick back, I don't budge. Pierce and KG can retire next year, I'll use the cap.
We have all the leverage - the Clippers have way more to lose than we do.
Either way, we're tanking for Wiggins. Either way, we're trying to lose games next year in an effort to jump-start this franchise with a top 5 pick in 2014. But the idea of Doc, KG and Pierce just "walking away" actually sounds somewhat appealing. In that theoretical scenario, you'd actually only have Rondo 12 mil, Green 9 mil, Bass 6.4 mil, Lee 5.2 mil, Terry 5.2 mil, Bradley 2.5 mil, 16th pick 1.6 mil, Crawford 2 mil = about 44 million dollars. With a cap set at 58 million... doesn't that mean we'd actually theoretically have cap space to offer Josh Smith or Big Al?
Yup to both.
The Clippers are foolish to nix this deal solely because of Bledsoe.
They are being handed a championship at the very, very least. They increase their chances of keeping Chris Paul, which should be on top of their list. The odds of getting Dwight Howard increase significantly.
To repeat what was said by the quoted, Ainge backs off then...SO WHAT?...
1. KG and Pierce do not retire. Run it back without Doc. KG/Pierce retire in Boston in 2 (?) years.
2. KG and Pierce retire. Boom.
The opportunity cost of a potential dynasty for the Clippers vs. Boston's cost of delaying the inevitable is what we're looking at here. Boston has very little to lose. DeAndre Jordan and two firsts are a small piece that will help in the massive project of rebuilding but not steer the process.
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Even if LA has all the leverage i dont see how dangling a 10 million dollar "prospect" (oxymoron) who they dont really want now or in the future is supposed to just get this deal done
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TP to Larbrd33.
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TP to Larbrd33.
I still feel that we had the leverage in that deal. If Chris Paul wanted to play for Doc and have KG as a teammate... that puts a lot of pressure on the Clippers to get something done or risk losing Chris Paul for nothing.
Meanwhile, our "worst case scenario" (Doc leaving to be a broadcaster and KG retiring) isn't that big of a deal. It's arguably our "best case scenario" depending on what the bigger picture plan is. We aren't desperate to land DeAndre and a crappy 1st.
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LAC might have more to lose, but I think the guarantee that CP3 will sign if Doc goes to the Clips is way overblown. He's going to do what's best for him, and in the world of the NBA where coaching tenures are getting shorter and shorter, I'm sure the head coach while important is not one of his primary decision factors.
If the trade goes through we immediately get our assets; LAC does not get CP3 guaranteed. And to further complicate the scenario both Doc and KG might not want to go to LAC if CP3 is not there.
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LAC might have more to lose, but I think the guarantee that CP3 will sign if Doc goes to the Clips is way overblown. He's going to do what's best for him, and in the world of the NBA where coaching tenures are getting shorter and shorter, I'm sure the head coach while important is not one of his primary decision factors.
If the trade goes through we immediately get our assets; LAC does not get CP3 guaranteed. And to further complicate the scenario both Doc and KG might not want to go to LAC if CP3 is not there.
Head coaches do matter to players, however. No one wants to have a boss they don't like, no matter how much they make. Furthermore, this deal would have been a signal to Paul that the Clippers old days of being unwilling to put together a winning team has passed. Instead, he has a signal that those days are as strong as ever. I bet Paul ends up in Dallas.
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It's dead in the water right now. Stern must not like the Clippers, we know he hates the C's.
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LAC might have more to lose, but I think the guarantee that CP3 will sign if Doc goes to the Clips is way overblown. He's going to do what's best for him, and in the world of the NBA where coaching tenures are getting shorter and shorter, I'm sure the head coach while important is not one of his primary decision factors.
If the trade goes through we immediately get our assets; LAC does not get CP3 guaranteed. And to further complicate the scenario both Doc and KG might not want to go to LAC if CP3 is not there.
agree his may be the case, Doc and kG are doing this to win a title now, if CP3 doesn't sign, I don't see them signing up to what was shown to be a poor team overall when CP3 didn't play or was hurt.
Doc and KG are looking for that express ticket to a title like Ray Allen.
CP3 and DH will be the next super team out west , where ever they finally team up.
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we have as much leverage as we can get.
Danny's pulled out of the deal for now to send a statement to the Clippers that he won't be screwed around anymore.
The 'sources' are saying it's dead in the water but until the Clippers hire a new coach that isn't named Doc River I don't believe it.
KG+Doc will be Clippers. Probably Doc first and then KG but there's no way Clippers lose this deal over a first round pick.
Might even be pulling out of it to make it look nice for Stern and the NBA office.
You don't give up deals like this so easily.
I'd say Doc is a Clipper by draft night or before summer league.
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Please, no more leverage talk, itīs getting ridiculous.
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Please, no more leverage talk, itīs getting ridiculous.
Sorry to disappoint.
But I agree with this thread an extreme amount. More so now than ever. Yet another TP for LarBrd33. Despite wanting to keep the ship running and letting KG and the Truth retire in green, this lets them have a true final hurrah. Perhaps I'm going to start agreeing with LarBrd33 more from now on (maybe after they trade Rondo, if they so decide to).
On our end? A 2014 1st is extremely valuable no matter where it may end up from what I've read.
DeAndre Jordan's destructive contract just doesn't compare.
Well done, Ainge. A slap in the face for the Clips.
Remind me not to play poker with him, even if it's a casual game, because I might be losing my house before I even realize it.
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Lol yeah how about some respect for Danny Ainge. Some people seemed to think the Clippers had us bent over a desk and we were going to accept DeAndre Jordan's terrible contract and a protected 1st rounder for Doc Rivers, Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce (where we'd be stuck paying 5 mil of Paul's contract after buying him out).
Instead... Danny Ainge, a master GM, gets an UNPROTECTED 2015 1st rounder for his coach... then proceeds to get three more 1st rounders for KG and Pierce from the Nets + Wallace's garbage contract (which was a wash with DeAndre's garbage contract).
Fair to say Danny Ainge played his card's right here. He didn't bend over. He got the best compensation ever for a coach and traded two guys with a foot in retirement for 3 future 1st rounders ... including one in the HUGE 2014 draft. Dude is a cold-hearted beast. I'm going to put a Danny Ainge poster on my wall.