CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rasta1 on May 24, 2013, 09:57:23 AM
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We need Doc to go talk to Chris Paul...I feel like Doc is the coach that Paul may have always wanted. It's the best option we have. We'd then have to do a S&T in this situation. But Chris paul can really flourish under Doc like Rondo has, and I'm sure he wants to play for Doc (especially if those Steven A Smith rumors has any indication of thing despite how ridiculous they may be)
It's a pipe dream, but why not give it a shot?
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Getting Paul here would require having a championship-caliber team in place. We have pieces in Rondo, Pierce, KG, Green, Bradley, and Sully, but I don't think we could afford Paul and keep those players.
So while I'm sure Paul would love Doc as a coach, the supporting cast wouldn't be all that great.
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Chris Paul didn't want to come here a couple of years ago. He certainly isn't going to come here now.
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I think Danny should try at the least. I mean offer up Rondo picks and even AB and try and get him. I mean Chris Paul always said he wanted to play with KG why not get him a ring on the way out. lol I know hopes are way up cause it'll never happen but exhaust every avenue.
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Probably has a better chance of winning with celts than the clips.
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Chris Paul is a diva, overrated fraud who quits on franchises and wouldn't come to ours based off weather....no thanks, he can go lose in the first and second round for the rest of his career elsewhere.
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Chris Paul is a diva, overrated fraud who quits on franchises and wouldn't come to ours based off weather....no thanks, he can go lose in the first and second round for the rest of his career elsewhere.
^, who knows what will happen if he comes to the Celtics, he may bolt as soon as KG retires or even cry about wanting a trade...
I don't want that type of player on my team. I'd rather much keep Rondo
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And some of the same things people complain about Rondo, they'll complain about with CP3, except his will come with a higher price tag.
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Why bother? We already have a 27 year old playoffs-tested PG with a knee injury in his past who can't carry his team to the Finals.
Another way to look at it--if you wanted to upgrade this team to contend for a championship, what position would you look to?
Probably not the point.
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Why bother? We already have a 27 year old playoffs-tested PG with a knee injury in his past who can't carry his team to the Finals.
Another way to look at it--if you wanted to upgrade this team to contend for a championship, what position would you look to?
Probably not the point.
Correction:
Who has carried his team to the Finals.
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
To paraphrase Hawkeye, " You and I remember 2010 very differently."
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m92j0gNogd1qh7ga5o4_250.gif)
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNpQCbHHdUc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvcbMNJQVbI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxA1PTnpNxs
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Danny should not and just push on making sure we pick a gem of a rookie at #16 instead of worrying about getting a PG when we already have one.
Chris Paul doesnt want to be here, and that's fine by me. I don't want an elite talent that can't win anyway.
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This is beyond idiotic to me. We already have an all-star caliber PG, our most solid position our of our starting five. And you want to flip assets to replace that position? Doesn't make any sense.
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
That was the season he stepped up and proved he was a great player, and first showed the world that "Playoff Rondo" was a different beast entirely, but I wouldn't consider him better than any of the Big 3 that year, and I think it would be revisionist to say so.
And, if we're being candid, he's also the reason we lost to the Lakers. I remember a lot of this that series:
(http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1000546/rondo_extra_space.jpeg)
But don't take my word for it, most of the games are up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC5dWYn04F8
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
That was the season he stepped up and proved he was a great player, and first showed the world that "Playoff Rondo" was a different beast entirely, but I wouldn't consider him better than any of the Big 3 that year, and I think it would be revisionist to say so.
And, if we're being candid, he's also the reason we lost to the Lakers. I remember a lot of this that series:
(http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1000546/rondo_extra_space.jpeg)
But don't take my word for it, most of the games are up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC5dWYn04F8
That's not a picture from 2010, is it? It looks a lot like Greg Stiemsma and Brandon Bass are out there on the floor in Celtics green.
Even if you want to say that Rajon Rondo was the sole reason that we lost to the Lakers (which I completely disagree with, by the way), the point is that he carried us to the finals.
I stand by that. Statistically, he was our best player in that year's playoffs. He was particularly good in the Cleveland series. That series was the key to pushing us all the way to the Finals. The team was on such a high and such a good basketball rhythm heading into the Orlando series that the Magic had no chance of stopping us. Rondo was the main reason for that. I'm not saying that Pierce, Garnett, and Allen (to a lesser extent) weren't good, but Rajon Rondo led that team.
Saying that he was anything but our best player is the revisionist part.
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
That was the season he stepped up and proved he was a great player, and first showed the world that "Playoff Rondo" was a different beast entirely, but I wouldn't consider him better than any of the Big 3 that year, and I think it would be revisionist to say so.
And, if we're being candid, he's also the reason we lost to the Lakers. I remember a lot of this that series:
(http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1000546/rondo_extra_space.jpeg)
But don't take my word for it, most of the games are up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC5dWYn04F8
That top picture doesn't look like it's from 2010.
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CP3 is not coming to boston. he doesnt want to be here... i thought we went through this already
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Chris Paul is absolutely the best PG in the league. The "best-of" list includes Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, Deron WIlliams, healthy Derrick Rose There are some young guns coming up like Kyrie Irving, Jrue Holiday, Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, Damian Lillard and John Wall.
Rondo is somewhere in the Top 10. Chris Paul is undeniably a superior player...
Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
So upgrading to Chris Paul would be nice, but it wouldn't be enough.
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Chris Paul is absolutely the best PG in the league. The "best-of" list includes Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, Deron WIlliams, healthy Derrick Rose There are some young guns coming up like Kyrie Irving, Jrue Holiday, Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, Damian Lillard and John Wall.
Rondo is somewhere in the Top 10. Chris Paul is undeniably a superior player...
Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
So upgrading to Chris Paul would be nice, but it wouldn't be enough.
Yes, top five is definitely in the top ten. Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd, and even 2008 Rajon Rondo are all very, very good point guards who have won titles recently. You may say that point guards don't win titles on their own, but it sure is helpful to have a good one.
By the way, how do you not count Magic's Lakers as a team whose best player was their point guard?
One of these teams with an elite point guard is due to win a title in the near future. Here's hoping Danny can put the right pieces together over the course of the next few years so that team can end up being Rondo's Celtics.
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Though I am a fan of CP3 as a player and think he's the best PG in the league, I am no longer interested in him.
The more I hear about him and see him in those STUPID State Farm commercials, the more he comes off as a prima donna.
Also as mentioned, I think he's made it clear he wants nothing to do with Boston.
The hell with him
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The four current PGs left in are Parker (elite, but not the best), Conley and Hill (both in the 11-15 range) and Chalmers (impossible to gauge him since he is wide open all game).
The last 5 NBA champions have been lead by Mario Chalmers, washed up Jason Kidd, washed up Derek Fisher and Rondo before he fully had his game developed. The last elite PG to win was Tony Parker six years ago.
I'm just not seeing why having the best PG is important, especially considering that Chris Paul seems to be an "overbearing father" for lack of a better term in the locker room. I know KG does it too, but at least he encourages his own team to be good and pumps up players like Stiemsma. I think CP3 is a bit of an egotistical ass and ends up hurting his team's morale more often than not. I don't see why you would want someone openly lowering teammates' confidence and overruling your coach in pressure situations. I don't want anything to do with him and he isn't ever winning a championship unless he teams up with LeBron or Wiggins.
If we are going to get a big name Clipper that we know will never make it past the conference championship, I would much rather team up Blake Griffin with Rondo. At least BG is fun to watch. Chris Paul runs those stupid half court sets like his life depends on it and he still can't win.
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The amount of excuses people for Chris Paul is just astounding. I just find it satisfying that the great Chris Paul who had "zero" help with the hornets go to the critically acclaimed, deepest team in the league to suffer a first round exit.
Meanwhile in the playoffs...
Tyson Chandler has since won a title and advanced further. David West has advanced further.
Marco Belineli has advanced further.
Jarett Jack and Carl Landry advanced further.
Quincy Pondexter advanced further.
Jerryd Bayless advanced further.
The Celtics on the other hand made deep playoff runs including one championship, finals and two eastern conference championship appearances with Rondo, and their two worst results in the same span without him.
Chris Paul basically gets his coach fired. http://deadspin.com/donald-sterling-all-but-says-clippers-players-got-vinny-509345857
Chris Paul couldn't wait to get out of New Orleans to sign with the Knicks
http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/7303270/chris-paul-new-orleans-hornets-seeks-trade-new-york-knicks-sign-extension-according-report
Chris Paul annoys his teammmates
http://network.yardbarker.com/nba/article_external/deandre_jordan_and_blake_griffin_bickering_want_nothing_to_do_with_vinny_del_negro/13314817?linksrc=home_rg_head_13314817
Rondo has played for this team on one arm, one leg, and wants to stay a Celtic despite being discussed in trades. By the way, he's played just as well as Chris Paul, if not better, when it matters... for 60% of what Chris Paul makes.
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Chris Paul is absolutely the best PG in the league. The "best-of" list includes Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, Deron WIlliams, healthy Derrick Rose There are some young guns coming up like Kyrie Irving, Jrue Holiday, Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, Damian Lillard and John Wall.
Rondo is somewhere in the Top 10. Chris Paul is undeniably a superior player...
Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
So upgrading to Chris Paul would be nice, but it wouldn't be enough.
I agree that getting chris paul isn't going to be enough to make us a championship level team. I don't want the C's to mortgage the future trying to get chris paul. I think our team needs a go to scorer, preferably a 2 guard, and a killer big post player who can defend the paint and score.
But I disagree that paul is undeniably a superior player to Rondo. Depends on what skills you value as a point guard.
If I had to pick the top point guard right now I would say it is Tony Parker from the Spurs. I think Rondo is a top 5 point guard.
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The Celtics already have a PG that is battle tested and has led the league in assists with over 11 per game for the last three years. Not many players in NBA history can say that.
They don't need a marginal upgrade at PG, what they need is a player better than Rondo to team with him and upgrade this team. Currently, excellent PGs are the easiest thing to find. Seems everyone has one. So I am good on keeping Rondo or if we are going to trade him, trade him for a talent at a different position because getting a great PG to replace him won't be that difficult.
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
That was the season he stepped up and proved he was a great player, and first showed the world that "Playoff Rondo" was a different beast entirely, but I wouldn't consider him better than any of the Big 3 that year, and I think it would be revisionist to say so.
And, if we're being candid, he's also the reason we lost to the Lakers. I remember a lot of this that series:
(http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1000546/rondo_extra_space.jpeg)
But don't take my word for it, most of the games are up on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC5dWYn04F8
That's not a picture from 2010, is it? It looks a lot like Greg Stiemsma and Brandon Bass are out there on the floor in Celtics green.
Even if you want to say that Rajon Rondo was the sole reason that we lost to the Lakers (which I completely disagree with, by the way), the point is that he carried us to the finals.
I stand by that. Statistically, he was our best player in that year's playoffs. He was particularly good in the Cleveland series. That series was the key to pushing us all the way to the Finals. The team was on such a high and such a good basketball rhythm heading into the Orlando series that the Magic had no chance of stopping us. Rondo was the main reason for that. I'm not saying that Pierce, Garnett, and Allen (to a lesser extent) weren't good, but Rajon Rondo led that team.
Saying that he was anything but our best player is the revisionist part.
Fair enough. To my eye I'd say that 2010 was the best point of skill/ability overlap between the Big 4, and that who ended up where is largely a matter of debate.
As for the Cavs series, I give that nod to KG and the Truth for emotionally abusing Lebron to the point that he completely no-showed a must-win Game 5.
Also, while that screengrab is not from 2010, that particular 'defensive scheme' is what I was trying to illustrate (and the Lakers used it very, very, often in that finals series). Namely let's leave Rondo alone and make him beat us.
Which is really another way of me saying that while I think swapping Rondo for CP3 is relatively useless, Rondo has had about as much success as Paul when he's been the team's best player--a mark I set as '10-'11 til the present.
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Why bother? We already have a 27 year old playoffs-tested PG with a knee injury in his past who can't carry his team to the Finals.
Another way to look at it--if you wanted to upgrade this team to contend for a championship, what position would you look to?
Probably not the point.
beat me to it. TP for you.
PG is last place this place needs an upgrade. PF, SG and C would be my starting points.
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
Revisionist history?
In 24 games during the 2010 playoffs Rondo had the following averages:
FG% 46.3
FT% 59.6
PPG 15.8
RPG 5.9
APG 9.3
SPG 1.9
TO 3.0
Solid? Yes. Great and legendary? No.
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Why bother? We already have a 27 year old playoffs-tested PG with a knee injury in his past who can't carry his team to the Finals.
Another way to look at it--if you wanted to upgrade this team to contend for a championship, what position would you look to?
Probably not the point.
beat me to it. TP for you.
PG is last place this place needs an upgrade. PF, SG and C would be my starting points.
Exactly. Rondo is a top 3 point guard in the league right now. And is also on a bargain contract. Why would we want Chris Paul who is a minimal upgrade when we have so many other pieces to fill? Also with Paul more than likely strapping up a team with a max contract.
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Chris Paul is absolutely the best PG in the league. The "best-of" list includes Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, Deron WIlliams, healthy Derrick Rose There are some young guns coming up like Kyrie Irving, Jrue Holiday, Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, Damian Lillard and John Wall.
Rondo is somewhere in the Top 10. Chris Paul is undeniably a superior player...
Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
So upgrading to Chris Paul would be nice, but it wouldn't be enough.
TP. NO question I'd move Rondo for Chris Paul.
Completely agree, though, that point guards don't win championships in this league - although getting that point across here is going to result in a lot of cuts and abrasions on the top of your head.
I'd do the deal. We'd certainly be better than 20-23 in the first half of this year.
But we're not winning a title adding Chris Paul to this crew.
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
Revisionist history?
In 24 games during the 2010 playoffs Rondo had the following averages:
FG% 46.3
FT% 59.6
PPG 15.8
RPG 5.9
APG 9.3
SPG 1.9
TO 3.0
Solid? Yes. Great and legendary? No.
15 points 5 rebounds 9 assists under 3.5 turnovers a game in the playoffs is just "solid"?
Here's the list of names that have done that in NBA history:
Magic Johnson x 4
Isiah Thomas x 1
Jason Kidd x 1
Rajon Rondo x 2
Clyde Drexler x 1
Chris Weber x 1 (over 3 games getting swept)
Michael Ray Richardson x 1 (over 3 games getting swept)
Data fishing for numbers combination has limited value, I don't think 15/5/9/3.5 is some sort of special number combination. (remove the 3.5 TO limit you get to add Chris Paul to the list and Magic a bunch more times, you could fiddle the other numbers I'm sure to add other players playoffs)
But in this case it does demonstrate that its not just "solid", not in the playoffs.
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player? Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
It worked poorly for Isiah and Magic that is for sure.
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
Revisionist history?
In 24 games during the 2010 playoffs Rondo had the following averages:
FG% 46.3
FT% 59.6
PPG 15.8
RPG 5.9
APG 9.3
SPG 1.9
TO 3.0
Solid? Yes. Great and legendary? No.
Is this a joke? 16, 9, 6 and 2 is only solid for a point guard? Maybe it's the times we live in with so many great point guards. Those numbers for the FOURTH option on a team is unheard of.
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cp3 would never want to come to boston
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Chris Paul is absolutely the best PG in the league. The "best-of" list includes Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, Deron WIlliams, healthy Derrick Rose There are some young guns coming up like Kyrie Irving, Jrue Holiday, Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, Damian Lillard and John Wall.
Rondo is somewhere in the Top 10. Chris Paul is undeniably a superior player...
Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
So upgrading to Chris Paul would be nice, but it wouldn't be enough.
Yes, top five is definitely in the top ten. Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd, and even 2008 Rajon Rondo are all very, very good point guards who have won titles recently. You may say that point guards don't win titles on their own, but it sure is helpful to have a good one.
By the way, how do you not count Magic's Lakers as a team whose best player was their point guard?
One of these teams with an elite point guard is due to win a title in the near future. Here's hoping Danny can put the right pieces together over the course of the next few years so that team can end up being Rondo's Celtics.
I can't tell if you just ignored what I wrote or didn't understand it.
Billups wasn't the best player on his team despite the nonsense Finals MVP award. The Wallace brothers were that team... Rip Hamilton was the allstar scorer.
You are crediting Jason Kidd for Dirk Nowitski's championship? K?
You're crediting role-player Rondo for the title won by Kevin Garnett and his sidekick allstar hall-of-famers Pierce and Ray ALlen?
Comeonn...
Again... the last team to win a title with a point guard as the best player was the 1980s Pistons with Isiah Thomas. That happened AFTER 6'9 Magic Johnson won his.
Nothing I said was inaccurate.
Yes, it's nice to have a good point guard. SUre, I'd love to have Chris Paul. I'm just sayin, you'd need more. Rondo sure as heck isn't winning a title as the best player... Chris Paul is proving unlikely to do that as well... despite being vastly superior to Rondo.
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player? Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?
Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"
And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player? Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?
Sure... if the player is transcendent like LeBron James or Kevin Durant.
Again, it's not a bad thing having an all-star level point guard... I could see the Thunder winning a title some day with Russell Westbrook as their 2nd best player. I could theoretically see Chris Paul winning a title if he's sharing the spotlight with a dominant big man (Dwight Howard at his peak)...
But the best of the best in a league flooded with talented point guards is Chris Paul... and Chris Paul proved that even with a solid supporting cast lead by Blake Griffin... the team struggled to make a long playoff push.
Rondo with this current crop of Celtics is a team that will struggle to even make the playoffs (they were below .500 when he got injured). Chris Paul with this current crop of Celtics would be an improvement, but not a contender.
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
Revisionist history?
In 24 games during the 2010 playoffs Rondo had the following averages:
FG% 46.3
FT% 59.6
PPG 15.8
RPG 5.9
APG 9.3
SPG 1.9
TO 3.0
Solid? Yes. Great and legendary? No.
Is this a joke? 16, 9, 6 and 2 is only solid for a point guard? Maybe it's the times we live in with so many great point guards. Those numbers for the FOURTH option on a team is unheard of.
I'd say we can all agree that Rondo was the fourth option on that team.
As such, it is very unlikely he was the best player on that team.
...So, because of utterly unimpeachable, irrefutable science, he's never lead his team to the Finals. :P
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player? Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?
Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"
And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title? Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast. Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title. Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together? Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert? We'll see how they do. Marc Gasol and Randolph? Hmm... we'll see.
Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast. Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league. He's a top 10 PG. Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
Revisionist history?
In 24 games during the 2010 playoffs Rondo had the following averages:
FG% 46.3
FT% 59.6
PPG 15.8
RPG 5.9
APG 9.3
SPG 1.9
TO 3.0
Solid? Yes. Great and legendary? No.
Is this a joke? 16, 9, 6 and 2 is only solid for a point guard? Maybe it's the times we live in with so many great point guards. Those numbers for the FOURTH option on a team is unheard of.
I'd say we can all agree that Rondo was the fourth option on that team.
As such, it is very unlikely he was the best player on that team.
...So, because of utterly unimpeachable, irrefutable science, he's never lead his team to the Finals. :P
You can say things that aren't true all you want, just like you can judge a players worth by his shot attempts.
Edit: And then I go look at shot attempts, Rondo was second by shot attempts anyways the year in question. So really "fourth option" is just your slotting him into that spot in the pecking order by some other criteria.
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
It worked poorly for Isiah and Magic that is for sure.
Two of the top 25 players of all time with loaded teams. Yup... and it hasn't happened since 1990... and pretty much never happened prior to those two players.
FYI, both of those guys also had hall-of-fame teammates.
Give Chris Paul a hall-of-fame big man and I can see it happening. Chris Paul + Dwight HOward (if he gets back to 100%) is a possibility. Rondo + Josh smith... not so much.
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player? Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?
Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"
And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title? Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast. Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title. Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together? Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert? We'll see how they do. Marc Gasol and Randolph? Hmm... we'll see.
Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast. Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league. He's a top 10 PG. Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.
I suspect that if Rondo had a full season, he would probably end up being the highest vote-getter who failed to make one of the All-NBA teams, since I don't think he edges out Wade for a spot on the third team. Maybe Steph Curry would surpass him, but probably no one else. So, there is a case to be made that Rondo is a top ten backcourt player.
Is Rondo plus a non-PG on one of the three All-NBA teams (http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_league.html) a good enough foundation to build a championship-caliber roster around? Maybe not if it's David Lee. I have my doubts about Blake Griffin. What about everyone else?
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
Revisionist history?
In 24 games during the 2010 playoffs Rondo had the following averages:
FG% 46.3
FT% 59.6
PPG 15.8
RPG 5.9
APG 9.3
SPG 1.9
TO 3.0
Solid? Yes. Great and legendary? No.
Is this a joke? 16, 9, 6 and 2 is only solid for a point guard? Maybe it's the times we live in with so many great point guards. Those numbers for the FOURTH option on a team is unheard of.
I'd say we can all agree that Rondo was the fourth option on that team.
As such, it is very unlikely he was the best player on that team.
...So, because of utterly unimpeachable, irrefutable science, he's never lead his team to the Finals. :P
You can say things that aren't true all you want, just like you can judge a players worth by his shot attempts.
Edit: And then I go look at shot attempts, Rondo was second by shot attempts anyways the year in question. So really "fourth option" is just your slotting him into that spot in the pecking order by some other criteria.
You stay away from my science.
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Chris Paul is absolutely the best PG in the league. The "best-of" list includes Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, Deron WIlliams, healthy Derrick Rose There are some young guns coming up like Kyrie Irving, Jrue Holiday, Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, Damian Lillard and John Wall.
Rondo is somewhere in the Top 10. Chris Paul is undeniably a superior player...
Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
So upgrading to Chris Paul would be nice, but it wouldn't be enough.
Yes, top five is definitely in the top ten. Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd, and even 2008 Rajon Rondo are all very, very good point guards who have won titles recently. You may say that point guards don't win titles on their own, but it sure is helpful to have a good one.
By the way, how do you not count Magic's Lakers as a team whose best player was their point guard?
One of these teams with an elite point guard is due to win a title in the near future. Here's hoping Danny can put the right pieces together over the course of the next few years so that team can end up being Rondo's Celtics.
I can't tell if you just ignored what I wrote or didn't understand it.
Billups wasn't the best player on his team despite the nonsense Finals MVP award. The Wallace brothers were that team... Rip Hamilton was the allstar scorer.
You are crediting Jason Kidd for Dirk Nowitski's championship? K?
You're crediting role-player Rondo for the title won by Kevin Garnett and his sidekick allstar hall-of-famers Pierce and Ray ALlen?
Comeonn...
Again... the last team to win a title with a point guard as the best player was the 1980s Pistons with Isiah Thomas. That happened AFTER 6'9 Magic Johnson won his.
Nothing I said was inaccurate.
Yes, it's nice to have a good point guard. SUre, I'd love to have Chris Paul. I'm just sayin, you'd need more. Rondo sure as heck isn't winning a title as the best player... Chris Paul is proving unlikely to do that as well... despite being vastly superior to Rondo.
I think you misunderstood me, as well. I did not call either Parker, Billups, Kidd, or Rondo the best player on any of their respective championship teams (although, a case could be made for Billups on that Pistons squad and for Parker on at least one of the Spurs titles). What I was saying is that they were all very important pieces to their respective championship teams.
A very strong case could certainly be made that Rondo was the best player on the 2010 team that came within a couple of minutes of winning game seven of the Finals.
What I don't believe in is this notion that the best player on a championship team has to be a player at a given position. What wins titles is talent. These days it takes more than just one elite player to be a talented enough TEAM to win a title.
The Celtics already have one elite player on their roster to build around. The trick will be to find or develop others to join him, not to get rid of him because some people feel he plays the wrong position.
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
Revisionist history?
In 24 games during the 2010 playoffs Rondo had the following averages:
FG% 46.3
FT% 59.6
PPG 15.8
RPG 5.9
APG 9.3
SPG 1.9
TO 3.0
Solid? Yes. Great and legendary? No.
Is this a joke? 16, 9, 6 and 2 is only solid for a point guard? Maybe it's the times we live in with so many great point guards. Those numbers for the FOURTH option on a team is unheard of.
I'd say we can all agree that Rondo was the fourth option on that team.
As such, it is very unlikely he was the best player on that team.
...So, because of utterly unimpeachable, irrefutable science, he's never lead his team to the Finals. :P
You can say things that aren't true all you want, just like you can judge a players worth by his shot attempts.
Edit: And then I go look at shot attempts, Rondo was second by shot attempts anyways the year in question. So really "fourth option" is just your slotting him into that spot in the pecking order by some other criteria.
You stay away from my science.
By the numbers, Rondo was the best player in the playoffs on the 2010 Celtics squad. He was certainly the best player in the Cavs series where he averaged 21 PPG, 12 APG, 6 RPG, 54% from the field, with a 3.2 A/TO ratio.
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
Revisionist history?
In 24 games during the 2010 playoffs Rondo had the following averages:
FG% 46.3
FT% 59.6
PPG 15.8
RPG 5.9
APG 9.3
SPG 1.9
TO 3.0
Solid? Yes. Great and legendary? No.
Is this a joke? 16, 9, 6 and 2 is only solid for a point guard? Maybe it's the times we live in with so many great point guards. Those numbers for the FOURTH option on a team is unheard of.
I'd say we can all agree that Rondo was the fourth option on that team.
As such, it is very unlikely he was the best player on that team.
...So, because of utterly unimpeachable, irrefutable science, he's never lead his team to the Finals. :P
You can say things that aren't true all you want, just like you can judge a players worth by his shot attempts.
Edit: And then I go look at shot attempts, Rondo was second by shot attempts anyways the year in question. So really "fourth option" is just your slotting him into that spot in the pecking order by some other criteria.
You stay away from my science.
By the numbers, Rondo was the best player in the playoffs on the 2010 Celtics squad. He was certainly the best player in the Cavs series where he averaged 21 PPG, 12 APG, 6 RPG, 54% from the field, with a 3.2 A/TO ratio.
Shhh don't tell him that. It undercuts his argument!
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player? Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?
Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"
And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title? Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast. Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title. Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together? Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert? We'll see how they do. Marc Gasol and Randolph? Hmm... we'll see.
Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast. Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league. He's a top 10 PG. Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.
O.K., so Rondo may have dropped out of the top 15 players in the league category after leading the team to a mediocre record early in the season and then getting hurt for the remainder of it, but if he recovers fully from his knee surgery, he has a very good shot to get right back into the ranking of a top 15 player again next season.
He was certainly a top 15 player for the 2012 season. He was third team all NBA, he was in the top ten for MVP voting, he was, of course, (as a perennial all-star) an all star, he was on the (I believe it was only second team that year) all defensive team, and he was one of the top five overall playoff performers on a team that got to the seventh game of the conference finals.
Borderline or "fringe" all star? Please.
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player? Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?
Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"
And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title? Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast. Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title. Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together? Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert? We'll see how they do. Marc Gasol and Randolph? Hmm... we'll see.
Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast. Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league. He's a top 10 PG. Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.
O.K., so Rondo may have dropped out of the top 15 players in the league category after leading the team to a mediocre record early in the season and then getting hurt for the remainder of it, but if he recovers fully from his knee surgery, he has a very good shot to get right back into the ranking of a top 15 player again next season.
He was certainly a top 15 player for the 2012 season. He was third team all NBA, he was in the top ten for MVP voting, he was, of course, (as a perennial all-star) an all star, he was on the (I believe it was only second team that year) all defensive team, and he was one of the top five overall playoff performers on a team that got to the seventh game of the conference finals.
Borderline or "fringe" all star? Please.
If Rondo remains with the Celtics, do you think he makes the all-star team next year?
Do you think Boston makes the playoffs?
Just curious what your stance is. I could totally see him missing the allstar team next year.
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player? Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?
Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"
And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title? Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast. Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title. Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together? Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert? We'll see how they do. Marc Gasol and Randolph? Hmm... we'll see.
Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast. Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league. He's a top 10 PG. Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.
O.K., so Rondo may have dropped out of the top 15 players in the league category after leading the team to a mediocre record early in the season and then getting hurt for the remainder of it, but if he recovers fully from his knee surgery, he has a very good shot to get right back into the ranking of a top 15 player again next season.
He was certainly a top 15 player for the 2012 season. He was third team all NBA, he was in the top ten for MVP voting, he was, of course, (as a perennial all-star) an all star, he was on the (I believe it was only second team that year) all defensive team, and he was one of the top five overall playoff performers on a team that got to the seventh game of the conference finals.
Borderline or "fringe" all star? Please.
If Rondo remains with the Celtics, do you think he makes the all-star team next year?
Do you think Boston makes the playoffs?
Just curious what your stance is. I could totally see him missing the allstar team next year.
If healthy, I absolutely expect him to be an all star again. He's been an all-star four years in a row. After every season, I've read speculation that he wouldn't be an all-star again the following year. Deron Williams, John Wall, Brandon Jennings, even the likes of Devin Harris were all supposedly going to unseat him at some point.
We'll see. There are starting to be a lot of good guards in the East, but I still expect our point guard to be among the very best.
If Rondo and Sully are both fully healthy by training camp, then, yes I expect us to be a playoff team.
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player? Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?
Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"
And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title? Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast. Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title. Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together? Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert? We'll see how they do. Marc Gasol and Randolph? Hmm... we'll see.
Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast. Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league. He's a top 10 PG. Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.
O.K., so Rondo may have dropped out of the top 15 players in the league category after leading the team to a mediocre record early in the season and then getting hurt for the remainder of it, but if he recovers fully from his knee surgery, he has a very good shot to get right back into the ranking of a top 15 player again next season.
He was certainly a top 15 player for the 2012 season. He was third team all NBA, he was in the top ten for MVP voting, he was, of course, (as a perennial all-star) an all star, he was on the (I believe it was only second team that year) all defensive team, and he was one of the top five overall playoff performers on a team that got to the seventh game of the conference finals.
Borderline or "fringe" all star? Please.
If Rondo remains with the Celtics, do you think he makes the all-star team next year?
Do you think Boston makes the playoffs?
Just curious what your stance is. I could totally see him missing the allstar team next year.
If healthy, I absolutely expect him to be an all star again. He's been an all-star four years in a row. After every season, I've read speculation that he wouldn't be an all-star again the following year. Deron Williams, John Wall, Brandon Jennings, even the likes of Devin Harris were all supposedly going to unseat him at some point.
We'll see. There are starting to be a lot of good guards in the East, but I still expect our point guard to be among the very best.
If Rondo and Sully are both fully healthy by training camp, then, yes I expect us to be a playoff team.
Lot of competition in the East. Wade and Rose likely will be voted in as the guards. Then the coaches have to pick 2 from this list: Paul George, Jrue Holiday, Kyrie Irving, Deron WIlliams, John Wall, Monta Ellis, Kemba Walker, Brandon Jennings, Jeff Teague, Kyle Lowry, Jose Calderon, Rajon Rondo.
If Rondo plays like he did in previous years... he probably will make it. Not a given, though. Coming off major surgery and the team will probably be pretty different.
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player? Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?
Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"
And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title? Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast. Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title. Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together? Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert? We'll see how they do. Marc Gasol and Randolph? Hmm... we'll see.
Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast. Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league. He's a top 10 PG. Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.
O.K., so Rondo may have dropped out of the top 15 players in the league category after leading the team to a mediocre record early in the season and then getting hurt for the remainder of it, but if he recovers fully from his knee surgery, he has a very good shot to get right back into the ranking of a top 15 player again next season.
He was certainly a top 15 player for the 2012 season. He was third team all NBA, he was in the top ten for MVP voting, he was, of course, (as a perennial all-star) an all star, he was on the (I believe it was only second team that year) all defensive team, and he was one of the top five overall playoff performers on a team that got to the seventh game of the conference finals.
Borderline or "fringe" all star? Please.
If Rondo remains with the Celtics, do you think he makes the all-star team next year?
Do you think Boston makes the playoffs?
Just curious what your stance is. I could totally see him missing the allstar team next year.
If healthy, I absolutely expect him to be an all star again. He's been an all-star four years in a row. After every season, I've read speculation that he wouldn't be an all-star again the following year. Deron Williams, John Wall, Brandon Jennings, even the likes of Devin Harris were all supposedly going to unseat him at some point.
We'll see. There are starting to be a lot of good guards in the East, but I still expect our point guard to be among the very best.
If Rondo and Sully are both fully healthy by training camp, then, yes I expect us to be a playoff team.
Lot of competition in the East. Wade and Rose likely will be voted in as the guards. Then the coaches have to pick 2 from this list: Paul George, Jrue Holiday, Kyrie Irving, Deron WIlliams, John Wall, Monta Ellis, Kemba Walker, Brandon Jennings, Jeff Teague, Kyle Lowry, Jose Calderon, Rajon Rondo.
If Rondo plays like he did in previous years... he probably will make it. Not a given, though. Coming off major surgery and the team will probably be pretty different.
No, it's not a given with Rondo coming off major surgery. We'll see what happens. Hopefully, he makes a complete recovery in time for the start of the season.
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Surgery or not Rondo will be an all star. I hope he can make a full mental recovery. Rondo is a high skill, high IQ player. He is not Derrick Rose whose skill consists of doing impossibly athletic things with his body. Rondo will still rack up the assists. He's still going to have great hands and a godly array of jabs and feints to make his defenders dance.
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CP3 is good enough for a second round exit at best. Happens all the time in NBA 2K13 :P
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The more time he spends pursuing, the more time he wastes.
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Chris Paul is absolutely the best PG in the league. The "best-of" list includes Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, Deron WIlliams, healthy Derrick Rose There are some young guns coming up like Kyrie Irving, Jrue Holiday, Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, Damian Lillard and John Wall.
Rondo is somewhere in the Top 10. Chris Paul is undeniably a superior player...
Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
So upgrading to Chris Paul would be nice, but it wouldn't be enough.
Yes, top five is definitely in the top ten. Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd, and even 2008 Rajon Rondo are all very, very good point guards who have won titles recently. You may say that point guards don't win titles on their own, but it sure is helpful to have a good one.
By the way, how do you not count Magic's Lakers as a team whose best player was their point guard?
One of these teams with an elite point guard is due to win a title in the near future. Here's hoping Danny can put the right pieces together over the course of the next few years so that team can end up being Rondo's Celtics.
I can't tell if you just ignored what I wrote or didn't understand it.
Billups wasn't the best player on his team despite the nonsense Finals MVP award. The Wallace brothers were that team... Rip Hamilton was the allstar scorer.
You are crediting Jason Kidd for Dirk Nowitski's championship? K?
You're crediting role-player Rondo for the title won by Kevin Garnett and his sidekick allstar hall-of-famers Pierce and Ray ALlen?
Comeonn...
Again... the last team to win a title with a point guard as the best player was the 1980s Pistons with Isiah Thomas. That happened AFTER 6'9 Magic Johnson won his.
Nothing I said was inaccurate.
Yes, it's nice to have a good point guard. SUre, I'd love to have Chris Paul. I'm just sayin, you'd need more. Rondo sure as heck isn't winning a title as the best player... Chris Paul is proving unlikely to do that as well... despite being vastly superior to Rondo.
I can't argue with anything LarBrd is saying here. He's 100% correct. Isiah was the last PG led team to win a title...23 years ago.
The problem here is not upgrading Rondo to Paul because that nets you so much less than if you find/sign/trade for or draft/grow a player better than Rajon Rondo to play with Rondo. Or you trade Rondo and other assets for a superduperstar that isn't a PG, if one becomes available.
That's what you do with Rondo now, especially since the low ball offers Danny will get because of the injury uncertainty means it makes the most sense to make Rondo show that he is Rondo and if next year isn't looking magical but it looks like Rondo is back, maybe you move him at the trade deadline and max out his value.
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Chris Paul is absolutely the best PG in the league. The "best-of" list includes Tony Parker, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry, Deron WIlliams, healthy Derrick Rose There are some young guns coming up like Kyrie Irving, Jrue Holiday, Mike Conley, Ricky Rubio, Damian Lillard and John Wall.
Rondo is somewhere in the Top 10. Chris Paul is undeniably a superior player...
Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
So upgrading to Chris Paul would be nice, but it wouldn't be enough.
Yes, top five is definitely in the top ten. Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd, and even 2008 Rajon Rondo are all very, very good point guards who have won titles recently. You may say that point guards don't win titles on their own, but it sure is helpful to have a good one.
By the way, how do you not count Magic's Lakers as a team whose best player was their point guard?
One of these teams with an elite point guard is due to win a title in the near future. Here's hoping Danny can put the right pieces together over the course of the next few years so that team can end up being Rondo's Celtics.
I can't tell if you just ignored what I wrote or didn't understand it.
Billups wasn't the best player on his team despite the nonsense Finals MVP award. The Wallace brothers were that team... Rip Hamilton was the allstar scorer.
You are crediting Jason Kidd for Dirk Nowitski's championship? K?
You're crediting role-player Rondo for the title won by Kevin Garnett and his sidekick allstar hall-of-famers Pierce and Ray ALlen?
Comeonn...
Again... the last team to win a title with a point guard as the best player was the 1980s Pistons with Isiah Thomas. That happened AFTER 6'9 Magic Johnson won his.
Nothing I said was inaccurate.
Yes, it's nice to have a good point guard. SUre, I'd love to have Chris Paul. I'm just sayin, you'd need more. Rondo sure as heck isn't winning a title as the best player... Chris Paul is proving unlikely to do that as well... despite being vastly superior to Rondo.
I can't argue with anything LarBrd is saying here. He's 100% correct. Isiah was the last PG led team to win a title...23 years ago.
The problem here is not upgrading Rondo to Paul because that nets you so much less than if you find/sign/trade for or draft/grow a player better than Rajon Rondo to play with Rondo. Or you trade Rondo and other assets for a superduperstar that isn't a PG, if one becomes available.
That's what you do with Rondo now, especially since the low ball offers Danny will get because of the injury uncertainty means it makes the most sense to make Rondo show that he is Rondo and if next year isn't looking magical but it looks like Rondo is back, maybe you move him at the trade deadline and max out his value.
I think you guys are way to hung up on the whole "who the best player is" thing. Plenty of recent titleists have had more than one player that could lay claim to the title of The Best Player on the Team. On a good team, certainly the kind of team I want to see my Celtics continue to be, there can be multiple "best players." That's o.k. by me, as it means that you have a good team, and not just a really, really good player with a bunch of guys around to support him.
This whole other notion that good point guards don't win titles is silly to me, as well. Of course, good point guards win titles. Tony Parker, Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas, Rajon Rondo, Gary Payton, Dennis Johnson, Mo Cheeks are the names of some of the better ones who have been crucial members of championships since I've been watching the game.
I say, so what, if you want to argue that those guys weren't the best guys on their respective teams. Does that mean that Dennis Rodman was useless for the Bulls or that Kevin McHale was useless for the Celtics? Was Clyde Drexler nothing but a scrub for the Houston Rockets? How much did Moses Malone suck for the Sixers championship team in the early eighties? What about the aging Kareem Abdul Jabbar on Magic Johnson's Lakers? Pau Gasol on the Lakers? Dwayne Wade on the Heat? Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili for the Spurs? None of the above mentioned guys was their team's "best player." Most, if not all of them are, however, hall of famers or future hall of famers. They were very important members of championship teams.
This whole line of thinking of; "let's get rid of our best player, because he's not good enough," basically means that following that logic, pretty much every team other than possibly the Miami Heat should be looking to get rid of their best players at all times to "upgrade" because he's not good enough to be the best player on a championship team. It's such an absurdly high bar when only one player currently in the league fits into that category.
Not to worry, though, the NEXT ONE is surely out there in high school or middle school somewhere. All we have to do is be really bad for a really long time, and we are bound to get our guy.
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Getting Paul here would require having a championship-caliber team in place. We have pieces in Rondo, Pierce, KG, Green, Bradley, and Sully, but I don't think we could afford Paul and keep those players.
So while I'm sure Paul would love Doc as a coach, the supporting cast wouldn't be all that great.
well. deandre and blake werent better than pp and kg that time............ in time
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Problem is, point guards don't really win titles in this league. The last team to win a championship with a point guard as their best player would be the 80s Pistons and isiah Thomas. It's a big man and scorer's league.
Can a team win a championship with a point guard as its second-best player? Can a team win a championship if its second-best player is Rajon Rondo?
Which really becomes "can a team win a championship if it has a pair of top-15(feel free to adjust the number as you see fit) players?"
And the answer is almost certainly yes, they can.
I think what you're trying to allude to is the idea that two borderline all-stars could win a title together... like Josh Smith and Rondo (neither of which is really a top 15 player in this league, though)... Is there a history of a team with only two "top-15" players winning a title? Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton were all all-stars so that probably doesn't count since it was 4 players + a solid supporting cast. Some would argue that Dirk Nowitiski was a top 5 player the year Dallas won a title. Where are these teams with only two "top 15" players winning a title together? Are you saying like... Paul George and Roy Hibbert? We'll see how they do. Marc Gasol and Randolph? Hmm... we'll see.
Generally the teams winning the title have a top 5 guy and a solid supporting cast. Rondo isn't a top 15 player in this league. He's a top 10 PG. Chris Paul is probably a top 5 talent, but you have to go all the way back to Isiah Thomas to find a team that won a title with a PG as their best player... and even then, that team was stacked and had quality big men.
O.K., so Rondo may have dropped out of the top 15 players in the league category after leading the team to a mediocre record early in the season and then getting hurt for the remainder of it, but if he recovers fully from his knee surgery, he has a very good shot to get right back into the ranking of a top 15 player again next season.
He was certainly a top 15 player for the 2012 season. He was third team all NBA, he was in the top ten for MVP voting, he was, of course, (as a perennial all-star) an all star, he was on the (I believe it was only second team that year) all defensive team, and he was one of the top five overall playoff performers on a team that got to the seventh game of the conference finals.
Borderline or "fringe" all star? Please.
If Rondo remains with the Celtics, do you think he makes the all-star team next year?
Do you think Boston makes the playoffs?
Just curious what your stance is. I could totally see him missing the allstar team next year.
When Rondo's healthy in the playoffs he's one of the best players in the league. I think that's much more important that whether you make the all-star team.
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The title of this topic should be:
"Danny needs to push hard into pursuing a solid big man"
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Let's trade a few of our role players (Sully, AB, Green) along with Rondo for Chris Paul.
After that, the only thing we'll need to do is find a few role players to put next to Chris Paul. Guys like Sully, AB and Green.
Except with less cap space.
But that's fine we can slide Chris Paul to the 5 and it'll solve all our problems. Just needa play small small small ball (like a 4'11 point guard?).
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No.
He didn't do it in 2007. He didn't do it in 2010. We have never made the Finals with Rondo as our best player.
are you joking about 2010? that was rondo's legendary year. he's the reason we came back against the cavs, and he's the reason we destroyed the magic. this truly was one of not just the best pg playoff performances ever but an all around greatest playoff performances
Revisionist history?
In 24 games during the 2010 playoffs Rondo had the following averages:
FG% 46.3
FT% 59.6
PPG 15.8
RPG 5.9
APG 9.3
SPG 1.9
TO 3.0
Solid? Yes. Great and legendary? No.
Is this a joke? 16, 9, 6 and 2 is only solid for a point guard? Maybe it's the times we live in with so many great point guards. Those numbers for the FOURTH option on a team is unheard of.
I'd say we can all agree that Rondo was the fourth option on that team.
As such, it is very unlikely he was the best player on that team.
...So, because of utterly unimpeachable, irrefutable science, he's never lead his team to the Finals. :P
You can say things that aren't true all you want, just like you can judge a players worth by his shot attempts.
Edit: And then I go look at shot attempts, Rondo was second by shot attempts anyways the year in question. So really "fourth option" is just your slotting him into that spot in the pecking order by some other criteria.
You stay away from my science.
By the numbers, Rondo was the best player in the playoffs on the 2010 Celtics squad. He was certainly the best player in the Cavs series where he averaged 21 PPG, 12 APG, 6 RPG, 54% from the field, with a 3.2 A/TO ratio.
Shhh don't tell him that. It undercuts his argument!
You guys might be right, and he might have been the biggest individual contributor to the 2010 run.
I just can't put Rondo ahead of the Big Three in that playoff run, especially when he was such a non-entity when it counted the most.
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As for the Cavs series, I give that nod to KG and the Truth for emotionally abusing Lebron to the point that he completely no-showed a must-win Game 5.
Giving the nod to PP and his 14/4/5 on 35% shooting over Rondo's 21/6/12 is roughly equivalent to giving the nod to Rondo over PP in the 2008 finals. It's just nonsensical.
Also, while that screengrab is not from 2010, that particular 'defensive scheme' is what I was trying to illustrate (and the Lakers used it very, very, often in that finals series). Namely let's leave Rondo alone and make him beat us.
Aside from Rondo battling through an injury in the 2010 finals the only reason that 'defensive scheme' was effective was Artest kneeing Ray in the thigh in game 3 or so. While it's true the Lakers gave Rondo plenty of space it's also true that the strategy involved putting their best defensive guard on Rondo and that scheme had Ray Allen setting 3 point records in game 2 with Fisher on him. The only time they tried their scheme with Kobe on Ray was the 2nd half of game 2 and Rondo led the team to a win with 10 points in the last 6 minutes.
Which is really another way of me saying that while I think swapping Rondo for CP3 is relatively useless, Rondo has had about as much success as Paul when he's been the team's best player--a mark I set as '10-'11 til the present.
So you refuse to give Rondo credit for 2010 when he was clearly our best player in the postseason and decide to only compare the last 3 playoffs when Rondo was injured in 2 of them, and guess what? Rondo *still* had considerably more success than CP3 over that time period.
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Rondo led all NBA players in total assists in the playoffs in 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012. Rondo led all NBA players in total steals in the playoffs in 2008, 2010 and 2012.
That is not an easy thing to do. If we have a player that can do that type of stuff in the playoffs over and over again, why do we want to trade him and other assets for a guy that might be able to do the same thing and score a little more but that's it?
We have our proven playoff performing PG what we need is someone to add to him, not to replace him.
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Rondo led all NBA players in total assists in the playoffs in 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012. Rondo led all NBA players in total steals in the playoffs in 2008, 2010 and 2012.
That is not an easy thing to do. If we have a player that can do that type of stuff in the playoffs over and over again, why do we want to trade him and other assets for a guy that might be able to do the same thing and score a little more but that's it?
We have our proven playoff performing PG what we need is someone to add to him, not to replace him.
Agreed. TP.
I'd much rather spend the time and assets addressing the front court issues.
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There's a center with those initials?
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How about DA pushes for a consistent 15+ pg Shooting Guard and a On the Block, defensive rebounding PF, and a legit Back up center.
I've see people wanting to trade Rondo/Green/Sully for CP3. And thats a horrible trade. You get more out of those three then you would CP3. Hes a great player and all, but then you get really weak at the 3 and 4 spot when your left with PP, and Bass, and know cap space to bring in other talent at Green and Sully's caliber. You'd end up with Peach's and White as your back ups, and that in no way is better then Green and Sully, especially for the future. CP3 wouldn't come here unless theres an other player or two for him to run with for the next 4 years. KG and PP wont cut it with out other young players, and I don't think AB is good enough to sway him in coming.
Plus I'd like to see one more year of Green and Sully. See if what they were doing before the season ended for Green and Sully were flukes or they were coming into their own. Give them an other year out of their surgeries and lets see. If its true that Sully was playing on one leg, I'd like to see what he does with two!