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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: LarBrd33 on April 27, 2013, 04:42:21 PM

Title: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 27, 2013, 04:42:21 PM
Eerie how closely our mini-era matches up with the early 00's Pistons.  But when history looks back on this team, this team was actually less successful than that Pistons team.

(Note:  Pistons were a 50 win playoff team the two years prior to 2003, but we're starting it with 2003-04, because that's when they landed Sheed)

Detroit:
2003-04 - Championship (54 wins)
2004-05 - Finals  (54 wins)
2005-06 - ECF (64 wins)
2006-07 - ECF (53 wins)
2007-08 - ECF (59 wins)
2008-09 - Swept in 1st round (39 wins)


Boston:
2007-08 - Championship (66 wins)
2008-09 - 2nd Round (62 wins)
2009-10 - Finals (50 wins)
2010-11 - 2nd Round (56 wins)
2011-12 - ECF* (Projected 48 wins)  * Fluke
2012-13 - Swept in 1st round - (41 wins)

Final 6 year tally:

Detroit - 1 title, 1 Finals, 3 ECF, 323 wins
Boston - 1 title, 1 Finals, 1 ECF, 323 wins* (*projecting last season)


Spooky, right?  Both teams started with the acquisition of an elite big man (Detroit - Sheed, Boston - KG) and were built on their defensive dominance.

We're basically right where the Pistons were in 2008-09... getting swept in the 1st round.

Sheed was gone the next year... kinda like how KG will be gone next year for us.   The Pistons since their mini-dynasty:

2009-10:  Lotto (27 wins)
2010-11:  Lotto (30 wins)
2011-12:  Lotto (25 wins)
2012-13:  Lotto (29 wins)

... They now have two guys to build around in 22 year old Greg Monroe and 19 year old Andre Drummond.  Perhaps they sniff the playoffs in a couple years.    Something to look forward to... maybe after 4 years of lotto hell, Boston will have some hope in 2018?
 
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: esel1000 on April 27, 2013, 04:45:37 PM
Ugg I'd like to hope we have more luck than the Pistons have had in the post-big 3 era. I feel some of the blame goes to Pistons management for locking up so much money in mediocre players like Villanueva... oh wait that's us with players like Bass, dang.

But in actuality I do think we have some better pieces moving forward in Rondo, Sully, and Green. We'll see where this team goes.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: hpantazo on April 27, 2013, 04:47:49 PM
I wouldn't say poor man's detroit pistons. We arguably had more chances to win titles that were lost due to injuries (KG's knee, Perk's knee, Rondo's elbow, Ray's bone spurs), but yea, the comparison to the pistons is right on.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 27, 2013, 04:49:05 PM
Ugg I'd like to hope we have more luck than the Pistons have had in the post-big 3 era. I feel some of the blame goes to Pistons management for locking up so much money in mediocre players like Villanueva... oh wait that's us with players like Bass, dang.

But in actuality I do think we have some better pieces moving forward in Rondo, Sully, and Green. We'll see where this team goes.
You'd like to think that Rondo, Sully and Green are superior to what the Pistons had their 1st lotto year... but I doubt it's all that better than what Detroit had: Stuckey, Ben Gordon, Prince, Villanueva

I think it's HIGHLY unlikely we make the playoffs next year.   The 2009-10 Pistons still had 31-year-old Rip Hamilton leading the charge... Next year we theoretically might still have 36-year-old Paul Pierce leading the charge.  But I don't think there's enough talent for this squad to compete in the Post-KG era.  The question is, can we luck out in the 2014 lotto and land Andrew Wiggins... or will we be suffering through a 5-10 year rebuild like the Pistons are?
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: KGs Knee on April 27, 2013, 04:49:43 PM
Detroit didn't have an in-his-prime star (Rondo) to build around after their core of older players petered out.  Boston does.

Big difference.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: PhoSita on April 27, 2013, 04:49:57 PM
I think the two eras are pretty equal, honestly.

People will remember this Celtics team as having more historic star power, since Garnett has had a much better career than Sheed, and Pierce has had a much better career than Billups, not to mention Ray compared to Rip Hamilton.

The 2009 team would have gone to at least the Conference Finals if it weren't for KG's injury, so there's an element of bad luck there.

I also think you could argue that the Eastern Conference was much weaker during the Pistons' run.  The Celtics had to compete against LeBron.  The Pistons didn't really come up against grown-up LeBron until 2007.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: PhoSita on April 27, 2013, 04:51:21 PM
Ugg I'd like to hope we have more luck than the Pistons have had in the post-big 3 era. I feel some of the blame goes to Pistons management for locking up so much money in mediocre players like Villanueva... oh wait that's us with players like Bass, dang.

But in actuality I do think we have some better pieces moving forward in Rondo, Sully, and Green. We'll see where this team goes.
You'd like to think that Rondo, Sully and Green are superior to what the Pistons had their 1st lotto year... but I doubt it's all that better than what Detroit had: Stuckey, Ben Gordon, Prince, Villanueva

Rondo, Sully, Bradley and Green are much better than that group of Pistons in one area that matters a lot -- cost.  The Pistons way overpaid for that group of guys, and it took them a few years to recover from that blunder.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: hpantazo on April 27, 2013, 04:52:23 PM
Detroit didn't have an in-his-prime star (Rondo) to build around after their core of older players petered out.  Boston does.

Big difference.

Yes, going forward we are in better shape than they were. We have Rondo in his prime and Sullinger. They had Stuckey, who's value I'd say is about equal to Bradley.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: lightspeed5 on April 27, 2013, 04:52:50 PM
we're becoming the pistons?
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 27, 2013, 04:52:59 PM
Detroit didn't have an in-his-prime star (Rondo) to build around after their core of older players petered out.  Boston does.

Big difference.
Maybe.  I don't think Rondo makes the all-star team next year.

I don't see how Sully and Jeff Green is better than Gordon, Charlie V and Stuckey.  It's just homerism talking.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: PhoSita on April 27, 2013, 04:55:30 PM
Detroit didn't have an in-his-prime star (Rondo) to build around after their core of older players petered out.  Boston does.

Big difference.
Maybe.  I don't think Rondo makes the all-star team next year.

I don't see how Sully and Jeff Green is better than Gordon, Charlie V and Stuckey.  It's just homerism talking.

That's a good point -- Rondo will have to compete with Holiday, D-Will, Wade, Irving, and possible Paul George for a guard spot.  Not so easy to be an All-Star guard in the East these days.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: KGs Knee on April 27, 2013, 04:57:29 PM
Well, I didn't say anything about our other 'parts'.

Green, Sully, AB are on better contracts, though.

Ben Gordon and Charlie V were two of the dumbest signings I've seen in quite some time.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 27, 2013, 04:57:47 PM
Detroit didn't have an in-his-prime star (Rondo) to build around after their core of older players petered out.  Boston does.

Big difference.
Maybe.  I don't think Rondo makes the all-star team next year.

I don't see how Sully and Jeff Green is better than Gordon, Charlie V and Stuckey.  It's just homerism talking.

That's a good point -- Rondo will have to compete with Holiday, D-Will, Wade, Irving, and possible Paul George for a guard spot.  Not so easy to be an All-Star guard in the East these days.
And Rose.  And John Wall, actually.  He averaged 19 and 8 on 44% shooting (80% from the line) this year... he's still only 22 years old.

Don't laugh... Wall Post All-star:  21 points, 8 assists, 4.5 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 45%/34%/81% ... the kid is improving.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: KGs Knee on April 27, 2013, 04:59:44 PM
Point of note: not making the all-star team does not inherently preclude a player from leading a team to a title.

But I seriously doubt Rondo doesn't make the all-star team next year, provided he's healthy.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 27, 2013, 05:03:38 PM
Point of note: not making the all-star team does not inherently preclude a player from leading a team to a title.

But I seriously doubt Rondo doesn't make the all-star team next year, provided he's healthy.
He's coming off a major injury... his team will be presumably drastically changed (will they still run the 24/7 Rondo Offense?)... and there are some young guns on the rise (see above).  28 year old Rondo is going to have his work cut out for him next year if he's making the all-star team.

I find it incredibly unlikely he'll lead our collection of talent to a title.  He's a Top 10 PG, but you need a superstar to win a title (titles are won by elite scorers and big men... not dudes who pass well).  I'll be VERY surprised if we even make the playoffs next year.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: JSD on April 27, 2013, 05:10:19 PM
Tp for the breakdown. It is a good comparison. We are probably whe Detroit was in 09, let us just hope doesn't make the same mistake Dumars did.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: BballTim on April 27, 2013, 05:10:37 PM
Detroit didn't have an in-his-prime star (Rondo) to build around after their core of older players petered out.  Boston does.

Big difference.
Maybe.  I don't think Rondo makes the all-star team next year.

  You're also the same guy who's been saying we wouldn't miss a beat in the playoffs without him.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 27, 2013, 05:15:31 PM
Detroit didn't have an in-his-prime star (Rondo) to build around after their core of older players petered out.  Boston does.

Big difference.
Maybe.  I don't think Rondo makes the all-star team next year.

  You're also the same guy who's been saying we wouldn't miss a beat in the playoffs without him.
I didn't realize KG and Pierce were completely washed up.   Rondo wouldn't make a difference in this series if those guys continued to play as poorly as they have.  The era is over... the Big 3 is toast.  So are the Celtics.  It's just like the end of the Pistons mini-era.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: get_banners on April 27, 2013, 05:21:41 PM
we had about as much success as detroit, but with major injuries/terrible luck. i don't remember that pistons team dealing with that many significant injuries. i think that says a lot about this team. as unlucky as you can get re: injuries, but grit and balls to the death. i'd take our healthy team over ANY of those pistons teams. we were better on defense and offense.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 27, 2013, 05:31:15 PM
we had about as much success as detroit, but with major injuries/terrible luck. i don't remember that pistons team dealing with that many significant injuries. i think that says a lot about this team. as unlucky as you can get re: injuries, but grit and balls to the death. i'd take our healthy team over ANY of those pistons teams. we were better on defense and offense.
I mean that's partially due to the fact that the Pistons were younger than Boston is now... not to mention that they were actually good for 8 years (the two 50 win seasons prior to Sheed's arrival) and not 6.

But that final playoff year when they were swept in Round 1:

Rip was 30, Sheed was 34, Billups was 32... Prince was 28

By comparison:

Ray is 37 (not even with us anymore), KG is 37, Pierce is 35... Rondo is 27.

Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 27, 2013, 05:34:47 PM
Also funny is that Ben Wallace's last full season with Detroit was 2005-06... which matches up with Perk's final full season with Boston in 2009-10.  Eerie, I tell you.  EERIE! 

Prepping for 4+ years of Lotto Hell.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: BballTim on April 27, 2013, 05:36:59 PM
Detroit didn't have an in-his-prime star (Rondo) to build around after their core of older players petered out.  Boston does.

Big difference.
Maybe.  I don't think Rondo makes the all-star team next year.

  You're also the same guy who's been saying we wouldn't miss a beat in the playoffs without him.
I didn't realize KG and Pierce were completely washed up.   Rondo wouldn't make a difference in this series if those guys continued to play as poorly as they have.  The era is over... the Big 3 is toast.  So are the Celtics.  It's just like the end of the Pistons mini-era.

  They didn't suddenly become washed up in the last few weeks. They're suffering under trying to carry the load Rondo normally does. KG can still knock down open jumpers, he just doesn't see very many of them in a half court game without Rondo. KG's hurting a little but he's also pulling down over 12 boards a game, not what you'd see from a washed up player.

  Edit: the only other time this team has looked uncompetitive in the playoffs was in 2011 when Rondo was injured. They looked quite a bit better a year older when he was back in the lineup, carrying that group to the ecf.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 28, 2013, 02:40:32 AM
Detroit didn't have an in-his-prime star (Rondo) to build around after their core of older players petered out.  Boston does.

Big difference.
Maybe.  I don't think Rondo makes the all-star team next year.

  You're also the same guy who's been saying we wouldn't miss a beat in the playoffs without him.
I didn't realize KG and Pierce were completely washed up.   Rondo wouldn't make a difference in this series if those guys continued to play as poorly as they have.  The era is over... the Big 3 is toast.  So are the Celtics.  It's just like the end of the Pistons mini-era.

  They didn't suddenly become washed up in the last few weeks. They're suffering under trying to carry the load Rondo normally does. KG can still knock down open jumpers, he just doesn't see very many of them in a half court game without Rondo. KG's hurting a little but he's also pulling down over 12 boards a game, not what you'd see from a washed up player.

  Edit: the only other time this team has looked uncompetitive in the playoffs was in 2011 when Rondo was injured. They looked quite a bit better a year older when he was back in the lineup, carrying that group to the ecf.
Tim... do you honestly expect Boston to be a contender again when Rondo returns?  I don't even think we'll make the playoffs.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: bobbyv on April 28, 2013, 03:54:11 AM
Detroit didn't have an in-his-prime star (Rondo) to build around after their core of older players petered out.  Boston does.

Big difference.
Maybe.  I don't think Rondo makes the all-star team next year.

  You're also the same guy who's been saying we wouldn't miss a beat in the playoffs without him.
I didn't realize KG and Pierce were completely washed up.   Rondo wouldn't make a difference in this series if those guys continued to play as poorly as they have.  The era is over... the Big 3 is toast.  So are the Celtics.  It's just like the end of the Pistons mini-era.

  They didn't suddenly become washed up in the last few weeks. They're suffering under trying to carry the load Rondo normally does. KG can still knock down open jumpers, he just doesn't see very many of them in a half court game without Rondo. KG's hurting a little but he's also pulling down over 12 boards a game, not what you'd see from a washed up player.

  Edit: the only other time this team has looked uncompetitive in the playoffs was in 2011 when Rondo was injured. They looked quite a bit better a year older when he was back in the lineup, carrying that group to the ecf.
Tim... do you honestly expect Boston to be a contender again when Rondo returns?  I don't even think we'll make the playoffs.
Weren't you the guy who said we'd beat the Knicks in 6?
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: Celtics4ever on April 28, 2013, 04:42:20 AM
Maybe that is your legacy but mine includes 16 other banners.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: BballTim on April 28, 2013, 05:04:37 AM
Detroit didn't have an in-his-prime star (Rondo) to build around after their core of older players petered out.  Boston does.

Big difference.
Maybe.  I don't think Rondo makes the all-star team next year.

  You're also the same guy who's been saying we wouldn't miss a beat in the playoffs without him.
I didn't realize KG and Pierce were completely washed up.   Rondo wouldn't make a difference in this series if those guys continued to play as poorly as they have.  The era is over... the Big 3 is toast.  So are the Celtics.  It's just like the end of the Pistons mini-era.

  They didn't suddenly become washed up in the last few weeks. They're suffering under trying to carry the load Rondo normally does. KG can still knock down open jumpers, he just doesn't see very many of them in a half court game without Rondo. KG's hurting a little but he's also pulling down over 12 boards a game, not what you'd see from a washed up player.

  Edit: the only other time this team has looked uncompetitive in the playoffs was in 2011 when Rondo was injured. They looked quite a bit better a year older when he was back in the lineup, carrying that group to the ecf.
Tim... do you honestly expect Boston to be a contender again when Rondo returns?  I don't even think we'll make the playoffs.

  If we were playing with a healthy Rondo we'd probably be better than we were last year in the playoffs when we had no Green and no healthy shooting guards. I don't know if it's because what Rondo does is subtle or if it's because he makes things look so easy but you've never been able to see what Rondo adds to the team. Now we're seeing the team unable to get the easy looks and struggling in the half court game. Bring Rondo back and much of that goes away.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: Celtics4ever on April 28, 2013, 06:21:02 AM
They are older too.  Anyone who doesn't think that is in denial.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: OmarSekou on April 28, 2013, 09:26:13 PM
I think this is accurate, but I don't have any issues with the Big 3 era being compared to the Pistons run in the 2000s. Those were good teams.

I don't think we'll end up like the Pistons. We have a better core of young players and they made a bunch of mistakes.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: CelticConcourse on April 28, 2013, 09:27:36 PM
Where does the "Poor Man" part come from?
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: OmarSekou on April 28, 2013, 09:32:04 PM
Where does the "Poor Man" part come from?
Slightly fewer ECFs. Probably not really a "poor man's Pistons, but I'm guessing the OP is bitter with how we've looked recently.
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: Celtics18 on April 28, 2013, 10:03:01 PM

2012-13 - Swept in 1st round




Not quite. 
Title: Re: Our Legacy: Poor Man's Detroit Pistons
Post by: D.o.s. on April 28, 2013, 11:32:18 PM
Ugg I'd like to hope we have more luck than the Pistons have had in the post-big 3 era. I feel some of the blame goes to Pistons management for locking up so much money in mediocre players like Villanueva... oh wait that's us with players like Bass, dang.

But in actuality I do think we have some better pieces moving forward in Rondo, Sully, and Green. We'll see where this team goes.
You'd like to think that Rondo, Sully and Green are superior to what the Pistons had their 1st lotto year... but I doubt it's all that better than what Detroit had: Stuckey, Ben Gordon, Prince, Villanueva

Rondo, Sully, Bradley and Green are much better than that group of Pistons in one area that matters a lot -- cost.  The Pistons way overpaid for that group of guys, and it took them a few years to recover from that blunder.
Right. Dumars spectacularly bungled their cap space in 2009, although (and I had to look this up because I couldn't believe it) they didn't end up amnestying any of those contracts.