CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: syfy9 on March 28, 2013, 06:38:59 PM
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They are hypothetically both fully healthy.
I'm thinking Sullinger. We need a decent rebounder, especially since KG is down. Our front court is as deep as the pond outside my house.
Plus, we have like what? 5 capable guards? Then again, having playoff Rondo would be nice...someone who could create shots during the playoffs. I dunno. What do you guys think?
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Well if they were both 100%, of course we would want them back. We want them back now. There's some games where you can see that this team is missing both Rondo and Sully.
Playoff Rondo is a beast btw. He elevates his game to such a level where he's almost unstoppable.
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Well Sully cuts into Bass' minutes so that is almost an unfair advantage. Playoff Rondo is tough to turn down but it seems like we miss rebounding more than shot creation.
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Well, Rondo is the best point guard in the League outside of Chris Paul, and playoff Rondo is even better, so it's not that hard to tell. Sully is a great player, he doesn't play like a rookie and he was limited by his back, but Rondo is an All Star.
Sully wasn't 100% healthy before he was out for the season, so he may be an even better player after surgery. I hope they're both 100% healthy by next January.
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Sully
without a doubt
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Rondo, no doubt.
Playoff Rondo is a beast, we sure will miss him. :'(
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I'd personally think Sullinger would help more.
Our biggest weakness is rebounding and he was arguably our best rebounder. His sabermetric defensive numbers were excellent and can score from open jumpers as well as bang inside.
Rondo is obviously a great player, but with the guards we have and the playmaking we have for
Pierce (and Garnett), we can withstand his loss more than Sully's.
I really look forward to a healthy and more experienced Jared Sullinger next season. I hope Rondo improves his game/mentality just as much.
But until then, this team has doubters to prove wrong and opposing teams hearts to break.
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Rondo's the better player but Sully would fill the hole
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Well Sully cuts into Bass' minutes so that is almost an unfair advantage. Playoff Rondo is tough to turn down but it seems like we miss rebounding more than shot creation.
If Rondo rebounds in the playoffs like he did last year then giving all of Bass's minutes to Sully would only gain about a rebound a game more than giving Lee's/Terry's minutes to Rondo.
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Definitely Rondo. Bass is doing great and Sully has a whole career ahead of him; let's not screw with his back and his future, especially since he wouldn't get that many minutes.
Playoff Rondo > Inexperienced Sully
We saw Steamer in the playoffs last year (or did we? ;) ) Let him sit this year out.
WAIT. This was supposed to be hypothetical? :'(
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Embarrassing thread
Uhh rondo and it's not even close.
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Sully.
Playoff Rondo is a myth.
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Would you rather have Derrick Rose or Taj Gibson?
Tony Parker or DeJuan Blair?
Deron Williams or Kris Humphries?
And people say that some of us around her over value Rondo? C'mon. I like Sully, but this is insane.
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Sully 100 percent. Our inside is hurtin so bad. And even if it wasn't, sully the bully is more important imo
Why?? the bitter after taste of Rondo only caring to break the assist record is still left. Just pounding the ball, instructing guys to give him a pick, telling guys to run around and then passing it to only pp or kg.
Sully did alot of things well and that is even pass. He would pass it to the OPEN guy and play the right way. Also lets not forget that winning stretch we went on with a healthy sully
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
You act like Rondo's 44-point game is the only time he's ever played well in the playoffs.
Go look at his game log. He has a pile of impressive playoff games.
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Not sure, I'm confident sully could come back right now and it would not mess with chemistry. I'm NOT confident saying that about rondo.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
You act like Rondo's 44-point game is the only time he's ever played well in the playoffs.
Go look at his game log. He has a pile of impressive playoff games.
no its not. But how many times did rondo score within the last 5 min of an important playoff game?? I'm not stating Sully has done anything either obviously, but i think Rondo's contribution is overstated by many in this forum. without him we were way over 500 beating some pretty darn good teams. With him earlier in the year we weren't that great. He went lazy mode this year and let the "star" treatment get to his head. I don't hate him but i hope he gets back to playing the right way as he did any year before this one. This is the reason why i like Sully. There is no pounding the ball, no barking for the ball. Actually did alot of the dirty work for a guy that is much more talented than that. No complaints
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
Respectfully, I have a hard time taking comments like this seriously, and that's without even taking into account that you (intentionally?) misrepresented my words. If you haven't noticed Rondo taking over playoff games, I guess my question would be, where have you been?
I'd point to the Chicago series in 2009 and the Knicks series in 2011 as good starting points. Rondo has had some absolutely dominant playoff performances.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
Respectfully, I have a hard time taking comments like this seriously, and that's without even taking into account that you (intentionally?) misrepresented my words. If you haven't noticed Rondo taking over playoff games, I guess my question would be, where have you been?
I'd point to the Chicago series in 2009 and the Knicks series in 2011 as good starting points. Rondo has had some absolutely dominant playoff performances.
Roy , i have a short memory. I need consistency. Rondo from the past should be Rondo in the future, a much better player. But this year he regressed and took this "star" label over his head. When have you seen this happen to KG?
Again i don't dislike Rondo and i'm sure when i can reflect i will remember all the great stuff he did. But where is the evidence he can do it again when he has shown such a poor performance earlier this year?? All of a sudden bc its the playoffs , he is going to be a different player?? This doesn't sit well with me, bc you bring it now, when your team is going on a terrible slump
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
Respectfully, I have a hard time taking comments like this seriously, and that's without even taking into account that you (intentionally?) misrepresented my words. If you haven't noticed Rondo taking over playoff games, I guess my question would be, where have you been?
I'd point to the Chicago series in 2009 and the Knicks series in 2011 as good starting points. Rondo has had some absolutely dominant playoff performances.
Roy , i have a short memory. I need consistency. Rondo from the past should be Rondo in the future, a much better player. But this year he regressed and took this "star" label over his head. When have you seen this happen to KG?
Again i don't dislike Rondo and i'm sure when i can reflect i will remember all the great stuff he did. But where is the evidence he can do it again when he has shown such a poor performance earlier this year?? All of a sudden bc its the playoffs , he is going to be a different player?? This doesn't sit well with me, bc you bring it now, when your team is going on a terrible slump
When has anyone on this team brought it during the regular season since 2009? This team lives for the playoffs, and every year rondo steps up in the postseason. Whether or not you agree with his approach to the regular season, there is no denying he has put on some amazing performances in the playoffs. The only reason this team hasn't fallen apart is because they have half a dozen guards to fill his role. But during the playoffs they will greatly miss RR.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
Gotta love how selective your memory is
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
Well this year he hasn't performed to that level - flat out. However I don't think you can discount his ability to perform at that level especially in the playoffs.
Do I think it's right that he seems to magically step up his game in the postseason and sometimes "take games off" in the regular season? Not at all. But the fact of the matter is that Rondo is still fully capable of performing at the 2010 game 4 vs Cleveland level and at an even higher level now. He is fully capable of going out in the playoffs, creating his own shot, and doing whatever else is necessary to get the team a win.
The question posed was if you could get one back this year, which one do you take, and I think that it's extremely difficult to justify taking Sully (still a rookie) over Rondo (a consistent superstar in the playoffs) - even if Rondo didn't seem to perform at the same level this year. It's because he has the capability to reach that level.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
Respectfully, I have a hard time taking comments like this seriously, and that's without even taking into account that you (intentionally?) misrepresented my words. If you haven't noticed Rondo taking over playoff games, I guess my question would be, where have you been?
I'd point to the Chicago series in 2009 and the Knicks series in 2011 as good starting points. Rondo has had some absolutely dominant playoff performances.
Roy , i have a short memory. I need consistency. Rondo from the past should be Rondo in the future, a much better player. But this year he regressed and took this "star" label over his head. When have you seen this happen to KG?
Again i don't dislike Rondo and i'm sure when i can reflect i will remember all the great stuff he did. But where is the evidence he can do it again when he has shown such a poor performance earlier this year?? All of a sudden bc its the playoffs , he is going to be a different player?? This doesn't sit well with me, bc you bring it now, when your team is going on a terrible slump
When has anyone on this team brought it during the regular season since 2009? This team lives for the playoffs, and every year rondo steps up in the postseason. Whether or not you agree with his approach to the regular season, there is no denying he has put on some amazing performances in the playoffs. The only reason this team hasn't fallen apart is because they have half a dozen guards to fill his role. But during the playoffs they will greatly miss RR.
I understand, but are you 40 to only have the intensity and energy to bring it in the playoffs?? you see kg play like this? Or Kobe or Lebron?
Rondo of 2008-2010 brought it in the regular season and playoffs. Imo the "star" treatment got to his brains. Instead of playing blue collar basketball which is best suited for him, he tried to play "picking your spot" basketball. It didn't work for so many games in a row, but he still didn't really change his style. The way it was it seemed was, i got my assist record, i'm considered a top pg, i'm an all star and its ok if we got a mediocre record so far bc it will be different in the playoffs. I will be different.
This is what i think he was thinking. Only way to explain his 75 percent level of play vs playoff rondo. This is not what great players are made of. This is what Gilbert Arenas is made of. Rondo should not be going down this road. Especially bossing guys around and after almost every rebound barking for the ball was ridiculous
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
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I know another argument was, why wasn't the majority molding to the needs of rondo. But when you got a whole team that is not going to mold to the way Rondo plays, then Rondo is the one that has to change. But he didn't. Again its either he is "stuck" or the "star" treatment got to him. I don't think he gave respect for his teammates that they deserved.
Bottom line is we were mere avg with him being the star and without him the team was excellent. so you guys figure it out
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You people are insane.
The fact that this is even being debating is lunacy.
I love The Celtics, but, by god, I can't stand the fans half the time.
I don't even understand some of the arguments being made in this thread. Straight up sports talk radio absurdity.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
You act like Rondo's 44-point game is the only time he's ever played well in the playoffs.
Go look at his game log. He has a pile of impressive playoff games.
no its not. But how many times did rondo score within the last 5 min of an important playoff game?? I'm not stating Sully has done anything either obviously, but i think Rondo's contribution is overstated by many in this forum. without him we were way over 500 beating some pretty darn good teams. With him earlier in the year we weren't that great. He went lazy mode this year and let the "star" treatment get to his head. I don't hate him but i hope he gets back to playing the right way as he did any year before this one. This is the reason why i like Sully. There is no pounding the ball, no barking for the ball. Actually did alot of the dirty work for a guy that is much more talented than that. No complaints
How many times did rondo score within the last 5 min of an important playoff game? Where have you been? Game 7 Phily as recently as last year??
This should be the easiest question ever. Rondo by so so much!!!
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
-Well it looks like you have it figured out ::). No one was going through shooting slumps, no one was just coming back from heart surgeries and double shoulder surgeries, they didn't have a new roster,They didn't have inconsistent rotations, minutes, or roles and they haven't lost a SINGLE game since Rondo's been gone because he was the ONLY reason they were losing. Ok that sounds about right ::) And by the way Sully went down a week after Rondo didn't really have time to "Get so much better"
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Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
I believe we were below .500 in games Sullinger played, at 22-23, and something like 15-11 without him. Does that also suggest that we're better without Sully, or that his play is the reason we were losing?
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Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
I believe we were below .500 in games Sullinger played, at 22-23, and something like 15-11 without him. Does that also suggest that we're better without Sully, or that his play is the reason we were losing?
Jeez, this is the reason that stats are terrible in debates. One can make stats point any which way!!
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
I like how you gave them a record of 15-6 when it's 17-11 without rondo. Is it really impossible to beilieve that maybe just maybe when rondo went down everybody realized he couldn't bail them out and they causally needed to contribute? I seem to remember most of the games nobody played well, and that can't possibly be 100 % on rondo. Also remember Bradley was out most of the year before rondo went down, and when he came back they went on a 6 game winning steak I believe. I would say our record early on was due to injuries and a bunch of new players learning the system rather than our top 3 pg in the league holding us back.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
-Well it looks like you have it figured out ::). No one was going through shooting slumps, no one was just coming back from heart surgeries and double shoulder surgeries, they didn't have a new roster,They didn't have inconsistent rotations, minutes, or roles and they haven't lost a SINGLE game since Rondo's been gone because he was the ONLY reason they were losing. Ok that sounds about right ::) And by the way Sully went down a week after Rondo didn't really have time to "Get so much better"
you have some valid points. But its just too much coincidence that the day Rondo doesn't play we beat Miami and go on a long winning run.
If we had Rondo right now, maybe we are in 6th place by now. Without rondo with Sully , Barbosa and a healthy team, we would be 2nd by now.
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(http://play.esea.net/global/media_preview.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.comicvine.com%2Fuploads%2F7%2F75222%2F2072040-not_sure_if_serious.jpg)
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
I like how you gave them a record of 15-6 when it's 17-11 without rondo. Is it really impossible to beilieve that maybe just maybe when rondo went down everybody realized he couldn't bail them out and they causally needed to contribute? I seem to remember most of the games nobody played well, and that can't possibly be 100 % on rondo. Also remember Bradley was out most of the year before rondo went down, and when he came back they went on a 6 game winning steak I believe. I would say our record early on was due to injuries and a bunch of new players learning the system rather than our top 3 pg in the league holding us back.
is that 17-11 without Rondo, Sully and Barbosa?
Whats the record without Rondo but with Sully and Barbosa?
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Sully.
Playoff Rondo is a myth.
lol
no comment
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Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
I believe we were below .500 in games Sullinger played, at 22-23, and something like 15-11 without him. Does that also suggest that we're better without Sully, or that his play is the reason we were losing?
Did sully have possesion of the ball like 70 percent of the time?? once rondo was out , he did get to have a chance out on the key and in the post. And made a nice contribution.
I'm interested in the lineup with Rondo and everyone else vs Without Rondo and everyone. Not the super depleted team we got now
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
I like how you gave them a record of 15-6 when it's 17-11 without rondo. Is it really impossible to beilieve that maybe just maybe when rondo went down everybody realized he couldn't bail them out and they causally needed to contribute? I seem to remember most of the games nobody played well, and that can't possibly be 100 % on rondo. Also remember Bradley was out most of the year before rondo went down, and when he came back they went on a 6 game winning steak I believe. I would say our record early on was due to injuries and a bunch of new players learning the system rather than our top 3 pg in the league holding us back.
is that 17-11 without Rondo, Sully and Barbosa?
Whats the record without Rondo but with Sully and Barbosa?
Our record with sully and not RR is like 2-0. If 2 games tells you they are better without RR then let me show you a few games without KG that the celtics won. Your argument has so many holes I don't even know where to start
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
-Well it looks like you have it figured out ::). No one was going through shooting slumps, no one was just coming back from heart surgeries and double shoulder surgeries, they didn't have a new roster,They didn't have inconsistent rotations, minutes, or roles and they haven't lost a SINGLE game since Rondo's been gone because he was the ONLY reason they were losing. Ok that sounds about right ::) And by the way Sully went down a week after Rondo didn't really have time to "Get so much better"
you have some valid points. But its just too much coincidence that the day Rondo doesn't play we beat Miami and go on a long winning run.
If we had Rondo right now, maybe we are in 6th place by now. Without rondo with Sully , Barbosa and a healthy team, we would be 2nd by now.
They were all the way up for that Miami game. With that being # 20's first game back I expected them to play hard. They always play against Miami and they have extra juice to play them with the mutual hate that the team shares.
We, as fans, don't know what's happening behind the scenes and all we can do is speculate on what we think we "know". None of us have the reason for the performance of this team. I don't think the team really has an answer half the time.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
with rondo we were 20-23
before the 5 game skid (which I attribute to a banged up KG) we were 16-7...now we're like...17-11 I think. I lost count.
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Wait, this isn't serious, right?
I know no other way to comprehend that which I read.
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is that 17-11 without Rondo, Sully and Barbosa?
Whats the record without Rondo but with Sully and Barbosa?
As you probably remember, Sully got hurt two games after Rondo did. We were 2-0 in those Rondo-less games with Sully. In the second game, Sully played four minutes and didn't score a point, so it's basically one game.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
with rondo we were 20-23
before the 5 game skid (which I attribute to a banged up KG) we were 16-7...now we're like...17-11 I think. I lost count.
I can just as easily attribute the 20-23 record to Bradley being banged up right?
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
with rondo we were 20-23
before the 5 game skid (which I attribute to a banged up KG) we were 16-7...now we're like...17-11 I think. I lost count.
thanks. I think i would take 16-7 anyday of the year vs 23-20. And the Bradley argument is weak. What , suddenly the 7th day Bradley is so much better than the 6th day bradley? Rondo had all the tools
We lost to teams like GS, Atlanta, New York etc. Without Rondo we beat them.
I'm sure with 2008 we win. I know we are a better team with Rondo, but the blue collar version, not this Gilber Arenas version
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I dont understand how some of you can say 'stats can easily be skewed' but then not listen to anyone who tries to give an 'eye-test'...and what if I give you both?
Here's my interpretation of the 20-23 vs 17-11....
WHY DO WE HAVE A BETTER RECORD WITHOUT OUR STAR PLAYER????
CP3 goes down, that team goes on a skid.
Knicks had all those injuries, primarily to their stars Melo and Tyson Chandler, they've barely been 50-50 since the new year.
If Heat lose LeBron, I'm sure they skid. If OKC loses Durant and/or RW, I'm sure they skid.
So my question is why didn't we?
Some will say the Ewing Theory, but in my EYE-TEST and in almost every stat I've read, we've just played better. No if ands or buts. Whether it was AB or JG or slumps or whatever. We just did.
That boggles my mind
And because of that, as much as I like Rondo, whatever he brought (notice past-tense) or didn't bring, I'm not willing to sacrifice that for the team we have now where things had been working (before the 5 game skid that I personally attribute to KG being out -- oh and remember what I said about teams skidding without their best player? smh).
BUT I do think that Sullinger was a great addition to the team. And it'd be nice to have a formidable Brandon Bass backup that can make shots and hit free throws. And several of our games, again I feel like, couldve been won off a good offensive rebound or two.
That's just my personal opinion. And I think alot of people's who are not saying Rondo.
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Wait, this isn't serious, right?
I know no other way to comprehend that which I read.
bc you are still in memory lane and reminicing about 2010 rondo? No offense but thats how most of the people here are. I blame Doc too , for letting Rondo off. If he played like he did earlier this year in a San Antonio uniform, he would be coming off the bench or got some serious yelling by Pops
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Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
I believe we were below .500 in games Sullinger played, at 22-23, and something like 15-11 without him. Does that also suggest that we're better without Sully, or that his play is the reason we were losing?
Did sully have possesion of the ball like 70 percent of the time?? once rondo was out , he did get to have a chance out on the key and in the post. And made a nice contribution.
I'm interested in the lineup with Rondo and everyone else vs Without Rondo and everyone. Not the super depleted team we got now
Sullinger played in 2 games after Rondo went down. In one of those games he played 4 minutes.
Honestly, what are you talking about?
The Miami game he played well. The next game, vs. The Kings, he played 4 minutes. What are these improvements and contributions liberated from Rondo we are supposed to be looking at?
You are making up evidence based on nothing to back up points that you have formulated outside of reality.
This is sports talk radio level discourse.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
with rondo we were 20-23
before the 5 game skid (which I attribute to a banged up KG) we were 16-7...now we're like...17-11 I think. I lost count.
I'm sure with 2008 we win. I know we are a better team with Rondo, but the blue collar version, not this Gilber Arenas version
God, I agree with this so much. Smh.
-
Wait, this isn't serious, right?
I know no other way to comprehend that which I read.
bc you are still in memory lane and reminicing about 2010 rondo? No offense but thats how most of the people here are. I blame Doc too , for letting Rondo off. If he played like he did earlier this year in a San Antonio uniform, he would be coming off the bench or got some serious yelling by Pops
Yup. Pop would definitely bench rondo. Clearly there is no convincing you, so why bother? If you don't like the new face of the franchise why bother wasting so much time with this team?
-
Wait, this isn't serious, right?
I know no other way to comprehend that which I read.
bc you are still in memory lane and reminicing about 2010 rondo? No offense but thats how most of the people here are. I blame Doc too , for letting Rondo off. If he played like he did earlier this year in a San Antonio uniform, he would be coming off the bench or got some serious yelling by Pops
Yup. Pop would definitely bench rondo. Clearly there is no convincing you, so why bother? If you don't like the new face of the franchise why bother wasting so much time with this team?
Bc to me Rondo does not = Celtics. Its about the team and winning as a team
-
Wait, this isn't serious, right?
I know no other way to comprehend that which I read.
bc you are still in memory lane and reminicing about 2010 rondo? No offense but thats how most of the people here are. I blame Doc too , for letting Rondo off. If he played like he did earlier this year in a San Antonio uniform, he would be coming off the bench or got some serious yelling by Pops
Yup. Pop would definitely bench rondo. Clearly there is no convincing you, so why bother? If you don't like the new face of the franchise why bother wasting so much time with this team?
Pop?
The guy that benches his stars when they dont play right?
The guy who will let his bench stay in if they're hot?
The guy who doesn't start ginobli?
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
with rondo we were 20-23
before the 5 game skid (which I attribute to a banged up KG) we were 16-7...now we're like...17-11 I think. I lost count.
I'm sure with 2008 we win. I know we are a better team with Rondo, but the blue collar version, not this Gilber Arenas version
God, I agree with this so much. Smh.
I don't know who this "Gilber Arenas" is, but sure, sounds great to me.
I honestly can't believe the ludicrous things I am reading. It is like a whole group of people mainlined WEEI and ESPN First Take straight into their veins and let their fingers run wild on the internet. This is why no one reads Zach Lowe but people love Skip Bayless. Why Bill Simmons is thought to know anything about basketball. Why the Plaschke's and Paige's, everyone knows their names, but people actually thinking about basketball, not broadcasts, haven't made inroads yet to the popular discourse. Thank god it is changing because this b....s... is getting way old.
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I dont understand how some of you can say 'stats can easily be skewed' but then not listen to anyone who tries to give an 'eye-test'...and what if I give you both?
Here's my interpretation of the 20-23 vs 17-11....
WHY DO WE HAVE A BETTER RECORD WITHOUT OUR STAR PLAYER????
CP3 goes down, that team goes on a skid.
Knicks had all those injuries, primarily to their stars Melo and Tyson Chandler, they've barely been 50-50 since the new year.
If Heat lose LeBron, I'm sure they skid. If OKC loses Durant and/or RW, I'm sure they skid.
So my question is why didn't we?
Some will say the Ewing Theory, but in my EYE-TEST and in almost every stat I've read, we've just played better. No if ands or buts. Whether it was AB or JG or slumps or whatever. We just did.
That boggles my mind
And because of that, as much as I like Rondo, whatever he brought (notice past-tense) or didn't bring, I'm not willing to sacrifice that for the team we have now where things had been working (before the 5 game skid that I personally attribute to KG being out -- oh and remember what I said about teams skidding without their best player? smh).
BUT I do think that Sullinger was a great addition to the team. And it'd be nice to have a formidable Brandon Bass backup that can make shots and hit free throws. And several of our games, again I feel like, couldve been won off a good offensive rebound or two.
That's just my personal opinion. And I think alot of people's who are not saying Rondo.
-When CP3 first went down for those extended games the Clippers were actually winning a few immediately after, then they started to lose
-Knicks beat Miami and plenty playoff teams without Melo and Amare at the beginning of the season
-Are we even going to talk about losing Lebron? He's the BEST player in the league right now of course the Heat would lose a big piece of their game
-KD holds the league scoring title and is/should be the main scoring option for OKC that would greatly hurt their team.
Rondo is a very important player for the C's, but he wasn't their 1st line for offense and he didn't want to be (when you have guys like PP and KG). They're stacked at the guard and they were able to pick up the slack, but the lack of ball handling is showing now with teams pressuring our guards and causing them to TO before they even fully bring the ball up.
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Playoff Rondo is what we need, regular season Sully is a plus.
But if next season Sully can produce good rebounding numbers including the playoffs, that's an even bigger plus.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
with rondo we were 20-23
before the 5 game skid (which I attribute to a banged up KG) we were 16-7...now we're like...17-11 I think. I lost count.
I'm sure with 2008 we win. I know we are a better team with Rondo, but the blue collar version, not this Gilber Arenas version
God, I agree with this so much. Smh.
I don't know who this "Gilber Arenas" is, but sure, sounds great to me.
I honestly can't believe the ludicrous things I am reading. It is like a whole group of people mainlined WEEI and ESPN First Take straight into their veins and let their fingers run wild on the internet. This is why no one reads Zach Lowe but people love Skip Bayless. Why Bill Simmons is thought to know anything about basketball. Why the Plaschke's and Paige's, everyone knows their names, but people actually thinking about basketball, not broadcasts, haven't made inroads yet to the popular discourse. Thank god it is changing because this b....s... is getting way old.
Half of the comments on this blog are laughable. This fan base can be so bi-polar.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
with rondo we were 20-23
before the 5 game skid (which I attribute to a banged up KG) we were 16-7...now we're like...17-11 I think. I lost count.
I'm sure with 2008 we win. I know we are a better team with Rondo, but the blue collar version, not this Gilber Arenas version
God, I agree with this so much. Smh.
I don't know who this "Gilber Arenas" is, but sure, sounds great to me.
I honestly can't believe the ludicrous things I am reading. It is like a whole group of people mainlined WEEI and ESPN First Take straight into their veins and let their fingers run wild on the internet. This is why no one reads Zach Lowe but people love Skip Bayless. Why Bill Simmons is thought to know anything about basketball. Why the Plaschke's and Paige's, everyone knows their names, but people actually thinking about basketball, not broadcasts, haven't made inroads yet to the popular discourse. Thank god it is changing because this b....s... is getting way old.
Half of the comments on this blog are laughable. This fan base can be so bi-polar.
yeah especially the ones from chainsmokinglikedino. Probably chain smoking as we speak. And not cigs either
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Playoff Rondo is what we need, regular season Sully is a plus.
But if next season Sully can produce good rebounding numbers including the playoffs, that's an even bigger plus.
Sully played hard and didn't take a shift off. A fat kid, but with incredible motor. You know what non playoff Rondo did?? Walk up with the ball most of the time and waste valuable seconds off the clock. No wonder guys like Green, Lee were struggling. Everytime they got a pass, it was with 5 seconds left. Or what about Rondo's famous, play bowling with the ball to the midcourt??
why not just get the stupid ball , run up the court, pass the ball like the AB/Lee/Jet/Barbosa did post rondo? It worked wonders
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
you know what 2010 rondo did? A man is open, you get the pass. You grab the rebound and you are off to the races for a fast break layup. On defense still gambled but tried much harder. Where did all this go this year?
- Rondo was not the only reason for the losing streak earlier in the season and it's funny how it's always pinned solely on him when clearly this team is inconsistent, hence the 5 game losing streak that just ended.
If they both were healthy, I would want BOTH back. Sully is important, but he's not proven when the performance matters the most (playoffs).
It was him. Why can't you see it still?? Its not even relating to two or three players making it hard to pint point the issue. With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?
Suddenly the guys gelled and Terry, Green , Lee got better? Sully got better? When in reality sully got more passes and a chance to contribute. On offense the ball was moving, the energy was there, the defense was tight (little gambling , bc rondo was like the only one doing it) and we were winning and rarely losing. It was bc of Rondo and it makes sense bc he was suppose to be the star of the team and had the ball like 70 percent of the time
with rondo we were 20-23
before the 5 game skid (which I attribute to a banged up KG) we were 16-7...now we're like...17-11 I think. I lost count.
I'm sure with 2008 we win. I know we are a better team with Rondo, but the blue collar version, not this Gilber Arenas version
God, I agree with this so much. Smh.
I don't know who this "Gilber Arenas" is, but sure, sounds great to me.
I honestly can't believe the ludicrous things I am reading. It is like a whole group of people mainlined WEEI and ESPN First Take straight into their veins and let their fingers run wild on the internet. This is why no one reads Zach Lowe but people love Skip Bayless. Why Bill Simmons is thought to know anything about basketball. Why the Plaschke's and Paige's, everyone knows their names, but people actually thinking about basketball, not broadcasts, haven't made inroads yet to the popular discourse. Thank god it is changing because this b....s... is getting way old.
Half of the comments on this blog are laughable. This fan base can be so bi-polar.
yeah especially the ones from chainsmokinglikedino. Probably chain smoking as we speak. And not cigs either
85 to 90 percent of your points have been disproved by multiple people, yet you are the on clinging to them like a ratty old binky. The remaining 10 are vague, subjective pronouncements grandly divorced from reality.
You claim Sullinger showed some grand improvement when Rondo went down yet he played one game and 4 minutes after Rondo's injury.
You can persist with your stubbornly held points but when they are all shown to be incorrect, by actual evidence, I honestly don't know how you expect people to take what you say seriously.
Swipe at me all you like but your throw some ludicrous junk at the wall and hope some of it sticks shtick is persuading no one. The Skip Bayless style of rhetoric only works because there is a lowest common denominator that knows no better than to find dung sparkling like diamonds.
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Playoff Rondo is what we need, regular season Sully is a plus.
But if next season Sully can produce good rebounding numbers including the playoffs, that's an even bigger plus.
Sully played hard and didn't take a shift off. A fat kid, but with incredible motor. You know what non playoff Rondo did?? Walk up with the ball most of the time and waste valuable seconds off the clock. No wonder guys like Green, Lee were struggling. Everytime they got a pass, it was with 5 seconds left. Or what about Rondo's famous, play bowling with the ball to the midcourt??
why not just get the stupid ball , run up the court, pass the ball like the AB/Lee/Jet/Barbosa did post rondo? It worked wonders
Jesus, you know that when Rondo plays "bowling" the clock doesn't start running until he touches it, hence the opposite of the accusation in the next sentence---i.e. preserving shot clock rather than running it down. You contradict yourself in consecutive sentences.
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you guys get really upset when someone disagrees with you lol
sheesh
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Rajon Rondo is:
1. A veteran with nearly 100 playoff games, including 2 finals and one championship, under his belt;
2. A player who has consistently elevated his game in the postseason, in nearly every aspect of the game;
3. The only clear matchup advantage we have at any position vs. the Heat;
4. Someone who has a proven ability to take over and win a playoff game by himself.
Sullinger is none of those things. He has half a year of NBA experience in which he has proven that when healthy he is a capable NBA big man. He averaged 7 ppg and 7 rpg in 23mpg in his last month of NBA hoops. These are average numbers for a quality backup PF/C. He has not proven that he is a clutch performer, either in the regular season or the playoffs.
Do Rondo's 40 games at the beginning of this year prove that he had regressed? Maybe - but maybe not, we've seen him go through slumps before. And he has always elevated his game in the playoffs. In fact his playoff numbers last year were his best ever by most metrics.
The discussion about whether we were better or worse without Rondo is completely empty. The sample size is too small. Too many other players were moving in and out of the rotation. It is a noisy, apples-to-oranges comparison in which one learns nothing of value.
So, the best evidence we have to go on is the longer history. Rondo's playoff history, and his unique advantages vs. many of the teams we fear most, are facts.
Sullinger has no history. In the absence of any history you have to ask what are the odds that Sully could elevate his game enough to be the best player on the floor for an extended part of or maybe an entire playoff series against one of the best teams in the NBA, as Rondo has done repeatedly. Heck, Sully never even established that he could stay on the floor as a rotation regular - in his last 14 games he fouled out of 6 and had 5 fouls in two others - in 23 minutes per game!
If anyone really thinks that the odds of Sully morphing into someone who could lead the Celtics through an NBA playoff series the way that Rondo has done, well then, you are entitled to that opinion. Just recognize that your opinion is contradicted by nearly all of the facts that we know about these players.
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you guys get really upset when someone disagrees with you lol
sheesh
chainsmokinglikedino is especially. Talks about skip bayless nonesense gibber jabber. Doesn't actually provide logic in how the new team is better with Rondo and what proof there is this is true. We went 23-20 and was hanging on for our playoff lives, but you can't talk bad about Rondo bc he is a playoff performer and the face of the franchise.
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Rajon Rondo is:
1. A veteran with nearly 100 playoff games, including 2 finals and one championship, under his belt;
2. A player who has consistently elevated his game in the postseason, in nearly every aspect of the game;
3. The only clear matchup advantage we have at any position vs. the Heat;
4. Someone who has a proven ability to take over and win a playoff game by himself.
Sullinger is none of those things. He has half a year of NBA experience in which he has proven that when healthy he is a capable NBA big man. He averaged 7 ppg and 7 rpg in 23mpg in his last month of NBA hoops. These are average numbers for a quality backup PF/C. He has not proven that he is a clutch performer, either in the regular season or the playoffs.
Do Rondo's 40 games at the beginning of this year prove that he had regressed? Maybe - but maybe not, we've seen him go through slumps before. And he has always elevated his game in the playoffs. In fact his playoff numbers last year were his best ever by most metrics.
The discussion about whether we were better or worse without Rondo is completely empty. The sample size is too small. Too many other players were moving in and out of the rotation. It is a noisy, apples-to-oranges comparison in which one learns nothing of value.
So, the best evidence we have to go on is the longer history. Rondo's playoff history, and his unique advantages vs. many of the teams we fear most, are facts.
Sullinger has no history. In the absence of any history you have to ask what are the odds that Sully could elevate his game enough to be the best player on the floor for an extended part of or maybe an entire playoff series against one of the best teams in the NBA, as Rondo has done repeatedly. Heck, Sully never even established that he could stay on the floor as a rotation regular - in his last 14 games he fouled out of 6 and had 5 fouls in two others - in 23 minutes per game!
If anyone really thinks that the odds of Sully morphing into someone who could lead the Celtics through an NBA playoff series the way that Rondo has done, well then, you are entitled to that opinion. Just recognize that your opinion is contradicted by nearly all of the facts that we know about these players.
again hanging onto playoff rondo glory. Did rondo slump alot in 2008-2010 regular season? If i remember , he was actually playing his butt off every game, working with the big three. Those year teams rarely had a night off and were top of the east for a reason.
Regarding your sully point, its true. But its pretty impressive if you ask me, when a 1st year player gets to bulldoze his way into the lineup and make as significant impact as he did. His game was expanding the more he played. It is plausable to say, he would of been just as good in the playoffs, if not better. During college , especially sophmore year he was one of the key reasons why Ohio made it to the final four.
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Would you rather have Derrick Rose or Taj Gibson?
Tony Parker or DeJuan Blair?
Deron Williams or Kris Humphries?
And people say that some of us around her over value Rondo? C'mon. I like Sully, but this is insane.
Very different situations. The Celtics are one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA. They aren't elite and they aren't deep (besides in the guard positions, which only helps Sully's case). DJ White and Randolph aren't playoff caliber role players. Also factor in chemistry.
We are like a car missing a tire. Rondo is like a premier engine, one of the best in the world. Sully is a tire in this case. You can replace the engine with this new premier engine, but a tire is what we need right now. We'll go fast with the premier tire, but the car had already been trucking along as is, even though it was constantly derailed by car injuries. A tire would help the car actually maintain levelness without the evil screeching noise that would/is being made.
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Sully
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Rondo messes up the team chemistry...then we're right back to square one.
Then you all would like to say..oh JG/Jet/Bass/whomever disappeared in the playoffs.
Right...because Rondo didn't make them apart of the offense.
"If they woulda showed up, we'd have banner 18!!"
::)
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Rajon Rondo is:
1. A veteran with nearly 100 playoff games, including 2 finals and one championship, under his belt;
2. A player who has consistently elevated his game in the postseason, in nearly every aspect of the game;
3. The only clear matchup advantage we have at any position vs. the Heat;
4. Someone who has a proven ability to take over and win a playoff game by himself.
Sullinger is none of those things. He has half a year of NBA experience in which he has proven that when healthy he is a capable NBA big man. He averaged 7 ppg and 7 rpg in 23mpg in his last month of NBA hoops. These are average numbers for a quality backup PF/C. He has not proven that he is a clutch performer, either in the regular season or the playoffs.
Do Rondo's 40 games at the beginning of this year prove that he had regressed? Maybe - but maybe not, we've seen him go through slumps before. And he has always elevated his game in the playoffs. In fact his playoff numbers last year were his best ever by most metrics.
The discussion about whether we were better or worse without Rondo is completely empty. The sample size is too small. Too many other players were moving in and out of the rotation. It is a noisy, apples-to-oranges comparison in which one learns nothing of value.
So, the best evidence we have to go on is the longer history. Rondo's playoff history, and his unique advantages vs. many of the teams we fear most, are facts.
Sullinger has no history. In the absence of any history you have to ask what are the odds that Sully could elevate his game enough to be the best player on the floor for an extended part of or maybe an entire playoff series against one of the best teams in the NBA, as Rondo has done repeatedly. Heck, Sully never even established that he could stay on the floor as a rotation regular - in his last 14 games he fouled out of 6 and had 5 fouls in two others - in 23 minutes per game!
If anyone really thinks that the odds of Sully morphing into someone who could lead the Celtics through an NBA playoff series the way that Rondo has done, well then, you are entitled to that opinion. Just recognize that your opinion is contradicted by nearly all of the facts that we know about these players.
again hanging onto playoff rondo glory. Did rondo slump alot in 2008-2010 regular season? If i remember , he was actually playing his butt off every game, working with the big three. Those year teams rarely had a night off and were top of the east for a reason.
Regarding your sully point, its true. But its pretty impressive if you ask me, when a 1st year player gets to bulldoze his way into the lineup and make as significant impact as he did. His game was expanding the more he played. It is plausable to say, he would of been just as good in the playoffs, if not better. During college , especially sophmore year he was one of the key reasons why Ohio made it to the final four.
Rondo has had slumps before. Remember the post-Perkins slump? Or his mini-slump in 2010? Heck, the second half of his sophomore year at Kentucky was a slump, he broke double figures in scoring twice in his last 12 games - which is one of the reasons he fell in the draft.
And his performance in the first half of this year was, for one thing, pretty good on many levels. He did have that assist streak, and while he got criticism for it, it was still a 37 game streak matched only by Stockton and Magic in league history. He was leading the league in assists by a large margin. He had five triple-doubles, including four in January and two in his last two games before the injury.
I mean, even during this supposed slump he was doing things on the court that Sully has never even approached.
And while I was concerned, like a lot of other people, that he wasn't doing as much to make the team better as he could be doing, there were a lot of other moving parts and new players on the team. Lee was playing terribly. Terry was playing poorly. Sully hadn't started to make an impact yet. Bradley was out. Bass was slumping. Green was playing much worse than he is now. You just can't learn anything conclusive from the team's record before and after the Rondo injury - or about his effect on those other players. Maybe Rondo had something to do with it, or some of it, but maybe not.
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Rajon Rondo is:
1. A veteran with nearly 100 playoff games, including 2 finals and one championship, under his belt;
2. A player who has consistently elevated his game in the postseason, in nearly every aspect of the game;
3. The only clear matchup advantage we have at any position vs. the Heat;
4. Someone who has a proven ability to take over and win a playoff game by himself.
Sullinger is none of those things. He has half a year of NBA experience in which he has proven that when healthy he is a capable NBA big man. He averaged 7 ppg and 7 rpg in 23mpg in his last month of NBA hoops. These are average numbers for a quality backup PF/C. He has not proven that he is a clutch performer, either in the regular season or the playoffs.
Do Rondo's 40 games at the beginning of this year prove that he had regressed? Maybe - but maybe not, we've seen him go through slumps before. And he has always elevated his game in the playoffs. In fact his playoff numbers last year were his best ever by most metrics.
The discussion about whether we were better or worse without Rondo is completely empty. The sample size is too small. Too many other players were moving in and out of the rotation. It is a noisy, apples-to-oranges comparison in which one learns nothing of value.
So, the best evidence we have to go on is the longer history. Rondo's playoff history, and his unique advantages vs. many of the teams we fear most, are facts.
Sullinger has no history. In the absence of any history you have to ask what are the odds that Sully could elevate his game enough to be the best player on the floor for an extended part of or maybe an entire playoff series against one of the best teams in the NBA, as Rondo has done repeatedly. Heck, Sully never even established that he could stay on the floor as a rotation regular - in his last 14 games he fouled out of 6 and had 5 fouls in two others - in 23 minutes per game!
If anyone really thinks that the odds of Sully morphing into someone who could lead the Celtics through an NBA playoff series the way that Rondo has done, well then, you are entitled to that opinion. Just recognize that your opinion is contradicted by nearly all of the facts that we know about these players.
again hanging onto playoff rondo glory. Did rondo slump alot in 2008-2010 regular season? If i remember , he was actually playing his butt off every game, working with the big three. Those year teams rarely had a night off and were top of the east for a reason.
Regarding your sully point, its true. But its pretty impressive if you ask me, when a 1st year player gets to bulldoze his way into the lineup and make as significant impact as he did. His game was expanding the more he played. It is plausable to say, he would of been just as good in the playoffs, if not better. During college , especially sophmore year he was one of the key reasons why Ohio made it to the final four.
You say we hang on to playoff glory, then quote results from 2008-2010 that are inaccurate. We went through major slumps every year after 2008, and then turn it up in the playoffs. They were not playing their butts off when I went to see them lose to New Jersey ( i believe) at home. Literally even expert wrote them off, then they went to game 7 of the nba finals. Your memory needs to be refreshed my friend
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Rajon Rondo is:
1. A veteran with nearly 100 playoff games, including 2 finals and one championship, under his belt;
2. A player who has consistently elevated his game in the postseason, in nearly every aspect of the game;
3. The only clear matchup advantage we have at any position vs. the Heat;
4. Someone who has a proven ability to take over and win a playoff game by himself.
Sullinger is none of those things. He has half a year of NBA experience in which he has proven that when healthy he is a capable NBA big man. He averaged 7 ppg and 7 rpg in 23mpg in his last month of NBA hoops. These are average numbers for a quality backup PF/C. He has not proven that he is a clutch performer, either in the regular season or the playoffs.
Do Rondo's 40 games at the beginning of this year prove that he had regressed? Maybe - but maybe not, we've seen him go through slumps before. And he has always elevated his game in the playoffs. In fact his playoff numbers last year were his best ever by most metrics.
The discussion about whether we were better or worse without Rondo is completely empty. The sample size is too small. Too many other players were moving in and out of the rotation. It is a noisy, apples-to-oranges comparison in which one learns nothing of value.
So, the best evidence we have to go on is the longer history. Rondo's playoff history, and his unique advantages vs. many of the teams we fear most, are facts.
Sullinger has no history. In the absence of any history you have to ask what are the odds that Sully could elevate his game enough to be the best player on the floor for an extended part of or maybe an entire playoff series against one of the best teams in the NBA, as Rondo has done repeatedly. Heck, Sully never even established that he could stay on the floor as a rotation regular - in his last 14 games he fouled out of 6 and had 5 fouls in two others - in 23 minutes per game!
If anyone really thinks that the odds of Sully morphing into someone who could lead the Celtics through an NBA playoff series the way that Rondo has done, well then, you are entitled to that opinion. Just recognize that your opinion is contradicted by nearly all of the facts that we know about these players.
again hanging onto playoff rondo glory. Did rondo slump alot in 2008-2010 regular season? If i remember , he was actually playing his butt off every game, working with the big three. Those year teams rarely had a night off and were top of the east for a reason.
Regarding your sully point, its true. But its pretty impressive if you ask me, when a 1st year player gets to bulldoze his way into the lineup and make as significant impact as he did. His game was expanding the more he played. It is plausable to say, he would of been just as good in the playoffs, if not better. During college , especially sophmore year he was one of the key reasons why Ohio made it to the final four.
You say we hang on to playoff glory, then quote results from 2008-2010 that are inaccurate. We went through major slumps every year after 2008, and then turn it up in the playoffs. They were not playing their butts off when I went to see them lose to New Jersey ( i believe) at home. Literally even expert wrote them off, then they went to game 7 of the nba finals. Your memory needs to be refreshed my friend
My memory is clear. You need a refresher. They won 50 plus games and still obtained home court adv. Slumps or no slumps they played hard.
The celts were never a team that relied on talent alone, vs sharing the ball, always rotating properly on defense, etc.
Maybe you were unlucky to see a game where they had a night off. But in general that was not the way they played. Rondo didn't play like that consistently.
And why would it be a shocker if a 4th seeded team went to the finals?? I don't remember the experts being surprised like they were last year when we made the ECF. We still had the talent plus won it all only two years ago
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i think the misconception here is slumps vs playing hard and the right way.
I don't care if Rondo went on slumps. Thats the last thing he went on alot earlier this year. He was putting up the stats. But the "playing hard, playing right" was not there.
If he played hard this year and was slumping, i wouldn't be so hard on him. I bet if he played hard/right and slumped, we would probably win more anyways
its incredible that a Rondo who was not the leader nor even in the top three in assist from 2008-2010 was part of a team that was more successful than a team of this year where he was the #1 assist guy. Back then, when a guy was free he passed it. The ball was moving around beautifully. Rondo usually ran the ball up the court. When a shot went up he would go after the rebound. He was setting picks and doing all kinds of other activities. I guess now he thinks he is too good to do these little but important things
Anyways i will halt on the Rondo bashing bc i do have a smidge of optimism that after his injury, watching games and the team winning that next year he will change his ways back to his old self. But for now, using this seasons history/stats/team chemistry, i would choose Sully
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you guys get really upset when someone disagrees with you lol
sheesh
chainsmokinglikedino is especially. Talks about skip bayless nonesense gibber jabber. Doesn't actually provide logic in how the new team is better with Rondo and what proof there is this is true. We went 23-20 and was hanging on for our playoff lives, but you can't talk bad about Rondo bc he is a playoff performer and the face of the franchise.
We were 20-23 not 23-20. Sorry but you keep saying the wrong record and its annoying me lol. Carry on as you were tho.
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Playoff Rondo gives us a real chance of winning 16 games. Without him we need a miracle...and we are so overdue
on good luck
Next question.
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Rajon Rondo is:
1. A veteran with nearly 100 playoff games, including 2 finals and one championship, under his belt;
2. A player who has consistently elevated his game in the postseason, in nearly every aspect of the game;
3. The only clear matchup advantage we have at any position vs. the Heat;
4. Someone who has a proven ability to take over and win a playoff game by himself.
Sullinger is none of those things. He has half a year of NBA experience in which he has proven that when healthy he is a capable NBA big man. He averaged 7 ppg and 7 rpg in 23mpg in his last month of NBA hoops. These are average numbers for a quality backup PF/C. He has not proven that he is a clutch performer, either in the regular season or the playoffs.
Do Rondo's 40 games at the beginning of this year prove that he had regressed? Maybe - but maybe not, we've seen him go through slumps before. And he has always elevated his game in the playoffs. In fact his playoff numbers last year were his best ever by most metrics.
The discussion about whether we were better or worse without Rondo is completely empty. The sample size is too small. Too many other players were moving in and out of the rotation. It is a noisy, apples-to-oranges comparison in which one learns nothing of value.
So, the best evidence we have to go on is the longer history. Rondo's playoff history, and his unique advantages vs. many of the teams we fear most, are facts.
Sullinger has no history. In the absence of any history you have to ask what are the odds that Sully could elevate his game enough to be the best player on the floor for an extended part of or maybe an entire playoff series against one of the best teams in the NBA, as Rondo has done repeatedly. Heck, Sully never even established that he could stay on the floor as a rotation regular - in his last 14 games he fouled out of 6 and had 5 fouls in two others - in 23 minutes per game!
If anyone really thinks that the odds of Sully morphing into someone who could lead the Celtics through an NBA playoff series the way that Rondo has done, well then, you are entitled to that opinion. Just recognize that your opinion is contradicted by nearly all of the facts that we know about these players.
again hanging onto playoff rondo glory. Did rondo slump alot in 2008-2010 regular season? If i remember , he was actually playing his butt off every game, working with the big three. Those year teams rarely had a night off and were top of the east for a reason.
Regarding your sully point, its true. But its pretty impressive if you ask me, when a 1st year player gets to bulldoze his way into the lineup and make as significant impact as he did. His game was expanding the more he played. It is plausable to say, he would of been just as good in the playoffs, if not better. During college , especially sophmore year he was one of the key reasons why Ohio made it to the final four.
You say we hang on to playoff glory, then quote results from 2008-2010 that are inaccurate. We went through major slumps every year after 2008, and then turn it up in the playoffs. They were not playing their butts off when I went to see them lose to New Jersey ( i believe) at home. Literally even expert wrote them off, then they went to game 7 of the nba finals. Your memory needs to be refreshed my friend
My memory is clear. You need a refresher. They won 50 plus games and still obtained home court adv. Slumps or no slumps they played hard.
The celts were never a team that relied on talent alone, vs sharing the ball, always rotating properly on defense, etc.
Maybe you were unlucky to see a game where they had a night off. But in general that was not the way they played. Rondo didn't play like that consistently.
And why would it be a shocker if a 4th seeded team went to the finals?? I don't remember the experts being surprised like they were last year when we made the ECF. We still had the talent plus won it all only two years ago
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/matchup/_/teams/celtics-cavaliers
If you flow this link you will see everyone picked the cavs. I think it's safe to say we shocked a lot of people outside of Boston.
If you take a look at the box scores: rondo game 1: 27pts, 12ast, 6rbs game 2: 13pts 19ast. Game 3: 18pts 8ast. Game 4: 29pts, 13 ast, 18 rbs. Game 5: 16pts 7ast. Game 6: 21pts 12ast 5 stl.
I'll take that guy.
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Rondo is a proven NBA Championship winner, and one of the top five PGs in the Association ... Sullinger is a great young player with what looks like great potential, (but is highly unproven, especially in the playoffs, which is a much different beast).
The answer is easily Rondo, and I think that should be obvious to most people who know this game at the pro level, (but I love what Sully has shown us to this point, and am very excited about his future with this team).
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Rajon Rondo is:
1. A veteran with nearly 100 playoff games, including 2 finals and one championship, under his belt;
2. A player who has consistently elevated his game in the postseason, in nearly every aspect of the game;
3. The only clear matchup advantage we have at any position vs. the Heat;
4. Someone who has a proven ability to take over and win a playoff game by himself.
Sullinger is none of those things. He has half a year of NBA experience in which he has proven that when healthy he is a capable NBA big man. He averaged 7 ppg and 7 rpg in 23mpg in his last month of NBA hoops. These are average numbers for a quality backup PF/C. He has not proven that he is a clutch performer, either in the regular season or the playoffs.
Do Rondo's 40 games at the beginning of this year prove that he had regressed? Maybe - but maybe not, we've seen him go through slumps before. And he has always elevated his game in the playoffs. In fact his playoff numbers last year were his best ever by most metrics.
The discussion about whether we were better or worse without Rondo is completely empty. The sample size is too small. Too many other players were moving in and out of the rotation. It is a noisy, apples-to-oranges comparison in which one learns nothing of value.
So, the best evidence we have to go on is the longer history. Rondo's playoff history, and his unique advantages vs. many of the teams we fear most, are facts.
Sullinger has no history. In the absence of any history you have to ask what are the odds that Sully could elevate his game enough to be the best player on the floor for an extended part of or maybe an entire playoff series against one of the best teams in the NBA, as Rondo has done repeatedly. Heck, Sully never even established that he could stay on the floor as a rotation regular - in his last 14 games he fouled out of 6 and had 5 fouls in two others - in 23 minutes per game!
If anyone really thinks that the odds of Sully morphing into someone who could lead the Celtics through an NBA playoff series the way that Rondo has done, well then, you are entitled to that opinion. Just recognize that your opinion is contradicted by nearly all of the facts that we know about these players.
again hanging onto playoff rondo glory. Did rondo slump alot in 2008-2010 regular season? If i remember , he was actually playing his butt off every game, working with the big three. Those year teams rarely had a night off and were top of the east for a reason.
Regarding your sully point, its true. But its pretty impressive if you ask me, when a 1st year player gets to bulldoze his way into the lineup and make as significant impact as he did. His game was expanding the more he played. It is plausable to say, he would of been just as good in the playoffs, if not better. During college , especially sophmore year he was one of the key reasons why Ohio made it to the final four.
You say we hang on to playoff glory, then quote results from 2008-2010 that are inaccurate. We went through major slumps every year after 2008, and then turn it up in the playoffs. They were not playing their butts off when I went to see them lose to New Jersey ( i believe) at home. Literally even expert wrote them off, then they went to game 7 of the nba finals. Your memory needs to be refreshed my friend
My memory is clear. You need a refresher. They won 50 plus games and still obtained home court adv. Slumps or no slumps they played hard.
The celts were never a team that relied on talent alone, vs sharing the ball, always rotating properly on defense, etc.
Maybe you were unlucky to see a game where they had a night off. But in general that was not the way they played. Rondo didn't play like that consistently.
And why would it be a shocker if a 4th seeded team went to the finals?? I don't remember the experts being surprised like they were last year when we made the ECF. We still had the talent plus won it all only two years ago
This is just flat out wrong. That 09-10 team that went to the finals was constantly criticized for their lackadaisical play in the regular season (Sheed anyone?), especially in the second half where they finished off with a 27-27 record.
No one from the panel of ESPN "experts" picked the Celtics to beat the Cavs in the 2nd round. Only two out of the 10 had us beating Orlando in the Conference Finals, and against the Lakers, it was 4 out of 10. And really, the majority of this blog (aside from the most optimistic posters) could've never predicted the complete beat down we gave Miami, Cleveland, and Orlando.
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until last year: Rondo for sure
this year's team: Sullinger, without a doubt
Rondo just doesn't fit in the team
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i think the misconception here is slumps vs playing hard and the right way.
I don't care if Rondo went on slumps. Thats the last thing he went on alot earlier this year. He was putting up the stats. But the "playing hard, playing right" was not there.
If he played hard this year and was slumping, i wouldn't be so hard on him. I bet if he played hard/right and slumped, we would probably win more anyways
its incredible that a Rondo who was not the leader nor even in the top three in assist from 2008-2010 was part of a team that was more successful than a team of this year where he was the #1 assist guy. Back then, when a guy was free he passed it. The ball was moving around beautifully. Rondo usually ran the ball up the court. When a shot went up he would go after the rebound. He was setting picks and doing all kinds of other activities. I guess now he thinks he is too good to do these little but important things
Anyways i will halt on the Rondo bashing bc i do have a smidge of optimism that after his injury, watching games and the team winning that next year he will change his ways back to his old self. But for now, using this seasons history/stats/team chemistry, i would choose Sully
So you're worried that Rondo won't play hard in the playoffs? This makes me question if you know anything at all about this guy. Have you forgotten how bad Pierce and Ray were in last year's playoffs? And yet we still got to the ECF only because Kevin Garnett and Rondo were 2 of the top 8 players in last year's playoffs. In the playoffs, EVERYONE plays hard.
Playoffs are decided by individual talent, defensive adjustments and matchups. No defense is perfect, so the opposition make adjustments to prioritize certain defensive matchups and give up another bad one. Rajon Rondo (along with Lebron and Chris Paul) is the best player in the league at manipulating and exploiting defenses. Look at last year's game 5 against the Heat. The Heat didn't have length to defend KG in the post so they fronted him almost every time, and Rondo totally destroyed them. That kind of genius is not something you forgo just because you didn't think he played hard enough for 40 regular season games.
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It would be ridiculous for anyone to say that they wouldn't Rondo back now or ever. He is one of the best point guards in the league and would win us some games without a doubt. The Boston Celtics need him to win.
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I am so fed up of you people.
Really, I can't take it anymore.
Where have you been in the last 5 years??
Rondo DOMINATED playoffs games and played through injuries for this team more times than anyone else did. He's been an absolute beast and led the team to amazing performances that NO ONE believed were possible with this old team. Everybody else on the planet is talking about Rondo as a PLAYOFF MVP and we're here discussing if he's more valuable than a rookie who barely cracked the starting line-up?
I have to assume that I'm the oldest here, really, and a lot of you started following the Celtics this season.
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sullinger has a very bright future with us.
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Rondo has won us a series before, Sully has not therefore I take Rondo.
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They need another quality big man more than another quality guard, but you'd be insane not to take Rondo for the playoffs.
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Cmon folks....just flat out lol@ choosing sully
can't even wrap my brain around this lunacy
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haters will hate....
I think it's Sebastian Telfair just masquerading as posters for the RR hate.
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Would you rather have Derrick Rose or Taj Gibson?
Tony Parker or DeJuan Blair?
Deron Williams or Kris Humphries?
And people say that some of us around her over value Rondo? C'mon. I like Sully, but this is insane.
Very different situations. The Celtics are one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA. They aren't elite and they aren't deep (besides in the guard positions, which only helps Sully's case). DJ White and Randolph aren't playoff caliber role players. Also factor in chemistry.
We are like a car missing a tire. Rondo is like a premier engine, one of the best in the world. Sully is a tire in this case. You can replace the engine with this new premier engine, but a tire is what we need right now. We'll go fast with the premier tire, but the car had already been trucking along as is, even though it was constantly derailed by car injuries. A tire would help the car actually maintain levelness without the evil screeching noise that would/is being made.
a pretty apt analogy.
we have a bigger hole in the front court than the backcourt right now so Sully would be of more help. Rondo's by far the better player but we're getting by at the guard spot right now. not so much in the front court
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Rather have the diva Rondo on another team with a decent big playing for the Celtics. HAA!! not sure who really wants wants Rondo anymore . SO we may be stuck with him.
He is damaged mentally and physically now . Maybe a high draft picks
Rondo needs to move on down the road and be a pain in the rear for somebody else.
Much rather have Sullinger . Good kid who plays with heart .
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Would you rather have Derrick Rose or Taj Gibson?
Tony Parker or DeJuan Blair?
Deron Williams or Kris Humphries?
And people say that some of us around her over value Rondo? C'mon. I like Sully, but this is insane.
Very different situations. The Celtics are one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA. They aren't elite and they aren't deep (besides in the guard positions, which only helps Sully's case). DJ White and Randolph aren't playoff caliber role players. Also factor in chemistry.
We are like a car missing a tire. Rondo is like a premier engine, one of the best in the world. Sully is a tire in this case. You can replace the engine with this new premier engine, but a tire is what we need right now. We'll go fast with the premier tire, but the car had already been trucking along as is, even though it was constantly derailed by car injuries. A tire would help the car actually maintain levelness without the evil screeching noise that would/is being made.
To continue this analogy...
There's about a 2% chance that the car could win the race with its elite engine and the donut it's currently driving on.
There's a 0.00000001% chance they're winning with the new tire without the engine.
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Sully
TP
Truth never lies.
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Would you rather have Derrick Rose or Taj Gibson?
Tony Parker or DeJuan Blair?
Deron Williams or Kris Humphries?
And people say that some of us around her over value Rondo? C'mon. I like Sully, but this is insane.
Very different situations. The Celtics are one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA. They aren't elite and they aren't deep (besides in the guard positions, which only helps Sully's case). DJ White and Randolph aren't playoff caliber role players. Also factor in chemistry.
We are like a car missing a tire. Rondo is like a premier engine, one of the best in the world. Sully is a tire in this case. You can replace the engine with this new premier engine, but a tire is what we need right now. We'll go fast with the premier tire, but the car had already been trucking along as is, even though it was constantly derailed by car injuries. A tire would help the car actually maintain levelness without the evil screeching noise that would/is being made.
To continue this analogy...
There's about a 2% chance that the car could win the race with its elite engine and the donut it's currently driving on.
There's a 0.00000001% chance they're winning with the new tire without the engine.
yeah..well the problem with Rondo
is his tire goes FLAT too often.
Time to change brands.
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you guys get really upset when someone disagrees with you lol
sheesh
chainsmokinglikedino is especially. Talks about skip bayless nonesense gibber jabber. Doesn't actually provide logic in how the new team is better with Rondo and what proof there is this is true. We went 23-20 and was hanging on for our playoff lives, but you can't talk bad about Rondo bc he is a playoff performer and the face of the franchise.
We were 20-23 not 23-20. Sorry but you keep saying the wrong record and its annoying me lol. Carry on as you were tho.
Actually if we wanna be 'technical' they're 18-20 ;D with Rondo(subtracting the games he didn't play) since the ENTIRE reason for them winning or losing is because of him. A couple of those games really should have been wins (especially the Chicago @ Boston w/ that bad call on the inbound pass and that freaking Belinelli prayer shot)
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Cmon folks....just flat out lol@ choosing sully
can't even wrap my brain around this lunacy
lol..it's crazy
To answer the question. Rondo, for sure. The rebounding isn't the problem really. Guys make up for that. There is no play maker and it has really been exposed, esp in March. Rondo absence is felt now. How many more games is PP going to turn the ball over like 6 times in the first half? Avery, Terry and Lee just aren't PGs. T-Will is alright, but vastly inferior to Rondo.
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Would you rather have Derrick Rose or Taj Gibson?
Tony Parker or DeJuan Blair?
Deron Williams or Kris Humphries?
And people say that some of us around her over value Rondo? C'mon. I like Sully, but this is insane.
Very different situations. The Celtics are one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA. They aren't elite and they aren't deep (besides in the guard positions, which only helps Sully's case). DJ White and Randolph aren't playoff caliber role players. Also factor in chemistry.
We are like a car missing a tire. Rondo is like a premier engine, one of the best in the world. Sully is a tire in this case. You can replace the engine with this new premier engine, but a tire is what we need right now. We'll go fast with the premier tire, but the car had already been trucking along as is, even though it was constantly derailed by car injuries. A tire would help the car actually maintain levelness without the evil screeching noise that would/is being made.
To continue this analogy...
There's about a 2% chance that the car could win the race with its elite engine and the donut it's currently driving on.
There's a 0.00000001% chance they're winning with the new tire without the engine.
yeah..well the problem with Rondo
is his tire goes FLAT too often.
Time to change brands.
Look I get all the Rondo criticism, that rebounding is our biggest flaw and that our best depth is at the guard position.
But the answer is still Rondo.
The only chance the Celtics have of truly competing in the playoffs without getting extremely lucky and having other teams' key players going down, is if KG, PP, and Rondo are all healthy and playing.
Adding Sully does make us a better team because of his energy, rebounding and size, but that team is still not good enough to win four 7-game series in a row.
Adding Rondo gives the Celtics a decent team that severely lacks front court depth and rebounding, but is still competitive, and has a guy in Rondo that can (and most likely will) go off in a couple games in his triple-double fashion and win the game or at the very least keep a sub-par Celtics team in it until the end.
Sully obviously fits our need so much better, but Rondo adds WAY more value to this team.
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I'd rather have Larry Bird back
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I'd rather have Larry Bird back
But not Larry Bird's back.
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Rondo without a single doubt.
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It seems to me that Celtic fans (more than any other in the NBA) have a tendency to overrate role/bench players with "hustle" and "hard work" and underrate talent.
I love Sullinger but this notion that he brings more to the team than Rondo is laughable.
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playoff Rondo would be>>>sully
the problem is this new team when Rondo is on the court he makes all the new guys worse
so Sully will have the net advantage
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Rondo by a wide margin.
The question is would we have pushed the ball ahead via the pass with him?
Along with improving our scoring he would give us more rebounding out of the back court, superior defense to courtney lee and he is able to get Bradley more involved on offense.
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Definitely Sullinger. Rondo seems like a decent human being, but i would rather not see him in a Celtic uniform ever again. I'm ready for the Rondo era in Boston to end.
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playoff Rondo would be>>>sully
the problem is this new team when Rondo is on the court he makes all the new guys worse
so Sully will have the net advantage
How does he make the new guys worse? ??? JET was the only one really struggling in January(Pierce too, but he is not new). He played better in Feb. Now in March, JET is struggling again and the team is not winning like they were in Feb and you can't blame that on Rondo because he is not here.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
Nobody dominates games like that every night. I think the issue is that no matter what ails the team (Terry's knee, PP's pinched nerve, Green needing to get back into shape, the new guys learning the system), you're either calling it "Rondo being lazy" or "Rondo pounding the ball". Rondo wasn't the reason our defense fell apart when KG went to the bench earlier this year. He isn't the reason that PP and Terry were shooting poorly and scoring less when they were less healthy. He's not the reason Green was shooting so poorly the first 2 months of the season. Laying the losing streaks and slumps on him is nonsense.
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The question is would we have pushed the ball ahead via the pass with him?
Probably not, but given that we're not getting more fast break points, our pace is now only half a possession higher since his injury and the offense is crattering back to our mean for the season so far I don't think that's a big factor.
We blitzed a bunch of teams in transition at home right after Rondo went out, it seems to have proven to be a temporary surge. Probably a combination of other teams adjustments and our own play falling back.
Our half court offensive changes without Rondo are far more important than "passes ahead". But its not what Tommy talks about so....
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How does he make the new guys worse? ??? JET was the only one really struggling in January(Pierce too, but he is not new). He played better in Feb. Now in March, JET is struggling again and the team is not winning like they were in Feb and you can't blame that on Rondo because he is not here.
[/quote]
yeah it can't really be Rondo's fault since it's the team that has changed not him, but the situation is when he leaves the court the whole team suddenly have vital, even before his injury, and since Sully went down our team started to struggle
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since Sully went down our team started to struggle
Sully went down 1 game and 4 minutes after Rondo did.
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I'd rather have Larry Bird back
(http://i.imgur.com/vESj1.gif)
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How does he make the new guys worse? ??? JET was the only one really struggling in January(Pierce too, but he is not new). He played better in Feb. Now in March, JET is struggling again and the team is not winning like they were in Feb and you can't blame that on Rondo because he is not here.
yeah it can't really be Rondo's fault since it's the team that has changed not him, but the situation is when he leaves the court the whole team suddenly have vital, even before his injury, and since Sully went down our team started to struggle
What are you talking about. Do you know who Sully even is?
Like Fafnir mentioned, Sully went down 1 game after Rondo did. The team still won w/o him too. So according to the logic of some around here, Sully isn't necessary to the team either.
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This shouldnt even be debatable.
Would you rather have your all star second best point guard in the league back on your team... Or an undersized rookie power forward that cant jump?
Like seriously? Its Rondo by a landslide. No contest.
Sully fills a need, yes. But Rondo is arguably the teams best all around player currently. How is this even a debate?
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Rondo without a doubt.
Is this even a question?
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
Nobody dominates games like that every night. I think the issue is that no matter what ails the team (Terry's knee, PP's pinched nerve, Green needing to get back into shape, the new guys learning the system), you're either calling it "Rondo being lazy" or "Rondo pounding the ball". Rondo wasn't the reason our defense fell apart when KG went to the bench earlier this year. He isn't the reason that PP and Terry were shooting poorly and scoring less when they were less healthy. He's not the reason Green was shooting so poorly the first 2 months of the season. Laying the losing streaks and slumps on him is nonsense.
Not to mention that it is incredible that someone would criticize Rondo for the way he was pursuing the assist record without giving him any credit for almost breaking it. The only other PGs in league history with equal or longer streaks are Stockton and Magic, who are without question the two best pure point guards of the modern era.
And as far as that Cleveland game, it's the same nonsense. While Rondo may not have had 29-18-13 in any game this year, in the month of January alone he had the following lines:
14/11/10
17/10/12
30/2/7
17/13/8
23/10/11
16/10/11
For that 14-game period his high in points was 30, his high in assists was 15 and his high in rebounds was 13.
Sully never once touched that level of performance. The most "impressive" thing about Sully during that period is that he fouled out 6 times in 14 games, playing 23mpg.
But yeah, let's choose Sully instead of Rondo because Rondo wasn't getting 29/18/13 every night.
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Far and away it's Rondo.
How many playoff games has Sully won us? None.
How many playoff games has Rondo won us? Probably five or six, all by himself.
Look, I love Sully, but to do anything substantial in the playoffs (beating Miami), we're going to need a star, and Rondo is that star. We also need a guy that Miami doesn't really have an answer for, and that's Rondo, too.
Finally, Rondo is going to make everyone else around him better much more than Sully does. Sully's rebounds are massive, but Rondo's ability to run an offense is much more valuable, especially in the playoffs.
This shouldn't even be a question.
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Far and away it's Sullinger, he fits in with the rebounding issues and is an upgrade defensively and offensively. Celtics are playing well because they're sharing the ball. We don't need Rondo out there telling people that they aren't good enough to touch the ball until he decides they are.
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Far and away it's Sullinger, he fits in with the rebounding issues and is an upgrade defensively and offensively. Celtics are playing well because they're sharing the ball. We don't need Rondo out there telling people that they aren't good enough to touch the ball until he decides they are.
I'd love to hear an explanation of this statement.
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
Nobody dominates games like that every night. I think the issue is that no matter what ails the team (Terry's knee, PP's pinched nerve, Green needing to get back into shape, the new guys learning the system), you're either calling it "Rondo being lazy" or "Rondo pounding the ball". Rondo wasn't the reason our defense fell apart when KG went to the bench earlier this year. He isn't the reason that PP and Terry were shooting poorly and scoring less when they were less healthy. He's not the reason Green was shooting so poorly the first 2 months of the season. Laying the losing streaks and slumps on him is nonsense.
Again this ones easy. With Rondo earlier this year we stunk and without him starting with the Miami game until Barb went down, we were lethal. Everyone started to play better as a team.
Rondo did pound the ball , walked up with the ball and wanted guys to set picks for him and run around screens like headless monkeys for an easy bucket. In the end they had only like 5-7 seconds to shoot, which is pretty stressful
After they let rondo down, he started to get them to do the same thing but in reality gave the ball to Pierce and KG most of the time.
Without Rondo, we were running up with the basketball, sharing the ball, spreading the energy and also had enough fast break points. Our defense was also great. This is celtics basketball
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The question is would we have pushed the ball ahead via the pass with him?
Probably not, but given that we're not getting more fast break points, our pace is now only half a possession higher since his injury and the offense is crattering back to our mean for the season so far I don't think that's a big factor.
We blitzed a bunch of teams in transition at home right after Rondo went out, it seems to have proven to be a temporary surge. Probably a combination of other teams adjustments and our own play falling back.
Our half court offensive changes without Rondo are far more important than "passes ahead". But its not what Tommy talks about so....
Ok I guess I more accurately should have said the entire offensive philosophy change rather than the early pass ahead. We are initiating offense with dribble hand offs instead of Rondo running a pick and roll.
Do you think Rondo would be able to adapt to this half court offense? Do you think it is more effective than our previous half court offense? To me in the half court since Rondo went down our best offense has been Green dribbling at the top of the key getting a head of steam then getting to the basket. Would Green has as many such opportunities with Rondo around?
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
Nobody dominates games like that every night. I think the issue is that no matter what ails the team (Terry's knee, PP's pinched nerve, Green needing to get back into shape, the new guys learning the system), you're either calling it "Rondo being lazy" or "Rondo pounding the ball". Rondo wasn't the reason our defense fell apart when KG went to the bench earlier this year. He isn't the reason that PP and Terry were shooting poorly and scoring less when they were less healthy. He's not the reason Green was shooting so poorly the first 2 months of the season. Laying the losing streaks and slumps on him is nonsense.
Again this ones easy. With Rondo earlier this year we stunk and without him starting with the Miami game until Barb went down, we were lethal. Everyone started to play better as a team.
Rondo did pound the ball , walked up with the ball and wanted guys to set picks for him and run around screens like headless monkeys for an easy bucket. In the end they had only like 5-7 seconds to shoot, which is pretty stressful
After they let rondo down, he started to get them to do the same thing but in reality gave the ball to Pierce and KG most of the time.
Without Rondo, we were running up with the basketball, sharing the ball, spreading the energy and also had enough fast break points. Our defense was also great. This is celtics basketball
It's easy because you didn't address any of my points. You're also explaining why the offense has improved so much without Rondo when the biggest difference in the team is on defense, namely how well we play defense when KG is on the bench. Did you ever notice any of the things that I mentioned when you watched the Celts play? My guess, based on your response, is that you didn't.
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I'd rather have Larry Bird back
Better that than Larry Bird's back.
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Do you think Rondo would be able to adapt to this half court offense? Do you think it is more effective than our previous half court offense? To me in the half court since Rondo went down our best offense has been Green dribbling at the top of the key getting a head of steam then getting to the basket. Would Green has as many such opportunities with Rondo around?
Sure he was effective before 2008-2010 when his ball handling responsiblities were lesser. He's also a better player now, better shooter and creator off the dribble himself.
Though given how this halfcourt offense has fallen off after a torrid month or so I'm questioning how much better it is.
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Everyone who said sullinger should pretty much be banned for such absurdity ::)
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Rondo. Sully can't win a playoff game (or playoff series) nearly on his own. Rondo can.
I like Sully a lot, but at some point, talent trumps fit.
when did Rondo win a playoff game on his own?? Is as memorable as Green scoring 43 points a few weeks ago. Unless you win, its not memorable nor significant imo
There's the 2010 game 4 against Cleveland that sent LBJ out of town. His line was 29-18-13. Rondo dominated that game
When did he once dominate like this, this year?? I do remember an assist record he was pursuing, and also remember alot of pounding the ball making selective passes and gambling on defense. Losing streaks, slumps. He changed the way he played, with less intensity , laziness and cuteness
Nobody dominates games like that every night. I think the issue is that no matter what ails the team (Terry's knee, PP's pinched nerve, Green needing to get back into shape, the new guys learning the system), you're either calling it "Rondo being lazy" or "Rondo pounding the ball". Rondo wasn't the reason our defense fell apart when KG went to the bench earlier this year. He isn't the reason that PP and Terry were shooting poorly and scoring less when they were less healthy. He's not the reason Green was shooting so poorly the first 2 months of the season. Laying the losing streaks and slumps on him is nonsense.
Again this ones easy. With Rondo earlier this year we stunk and without him starting with the Miami game until Barb went down, we were lethal. Everyone started to play better as a team.
Rondo did pound the ball , walked up with the ball and wanted guys to set picks for him and run around screens like headless monkeys for an easy bucket. In the end they had only like 5-7 seconds to shoot, which is pretty stressful
After they let rondo down, he started to get them to do the same thing but in reality gave the ball to Pierce and KG most of the time.
Without Rondo, we were running up with the basketball, sharing the ball, spreading the energy and also had enough fast break points. Our defense was also great. This is celtics basketball
It's easy because you didn't address any of my points. You're also explaining why the offense has improved so much without Rondo when the biggest difference in the team is on defense, namely how well we play defense when KG is on the bench. Did you ever notice any of the things that I mentioned when you watched the Celts play? My guess, based on your response, is that you didn't.
Agreed. We're now 8 pages into this thread, and I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this argument to support even one claim with a useful fact, or pay attention to any of the facts that have been presented to them.
I mean, just read the exchange above:
You: "Rondo's more valuable because he's proven he can win a playoff game by himself"
TB: "He's never done that!"
You: "Yep, he has, and here's one example."
TB (moves goalposts): "Well he hasn't done that this year!"
Me, in another post above: "He's come pretty close, and a heck of a lot closer than Sullinger. He had four triple-doubles in January alone."
TB: "OK, I'm going to ignore that and just re-gurgitate the same things I've been saying for 8 pages. Rondo pounds the ball! He's lazy! Etc."
...
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Far and away it's Sullinger, he fits in with the rebounding issues and is an upgrade defensively and offensively. Celtics are playing well because they're sharing the ball. We don't need Rondo out there telling people that they aren't good enough to touch the ball until he decides they are.
Me wants to cry :o
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cant believe this is even debatable. rondo is the 12th best player in the game...
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I would take a team of five Sullys anyday over a selfish divas.
Rondo needs to be brought back down to earth and play hard like his teammates. Cut out the "ME" basketball.
Rondo should be very blessed if he is allowed to stay on this team.
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Everyone who said sullinger should pretty much be banned for such absurdity ::)
Without saying too much more, as I feel some what dirty for even giving this thread an ounce of credibility just by responding, you've pretty much nailed it down here.
This is theater of the absurd.
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Agreed. We're now 8 pages into this thread, and I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this argument to support even one claim with a useful fact, or pay attention to any of the facts that have been presented to them.
I'm still waiting for this too.
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fact is we won a ring with a pretty 'blue collar' version of Rondo, not the star. A handful of what you all would call dominate performances.
we keep pointing at series that Rondo won in 09 and 10 like it might matter.
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Agreed. We're now 8 pages into this thread, and I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this argument to support even one claim with a useful fact, or pay attention to any of the facts that have been presented to them.
I'm still waiting for this too.
you mean like how we're 17-11 without Rondo and were 20-23 with him?
I first don't get the fact that people have to be poked fun at because they have an opinion. A question was posed on this thread. And because I don't agree with you, apparently I'm a lunatic, I'm crazy, I can't be serious, etc etc.
I'd also like to point out that I've been 'warned' by mods by saying similar things. But I'll leave that alone. Just a random there.
Secondly, there are people referencing statistics but guess what...STATISTICS AREN'T THE ENTIRE GAME!! YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS!!
If I were to tell you that Paul has averaged like 6 or 7 turnovers his past couple games, some of you bring up 'oh it's Paul...it's ok' others say it's a fair number for all he does. It's nothing to sneeze at.
But at the end of the day it's about WINS AND LOSSES.
No way I'm going to believe this playoff Rondo myth. I have to go by what I've seen THIS YEAR. Why is this wrong? He hasn't played to the level I THINK he can/should play to as the leader of this team. I also feel like I've seen him only make teamates out of KG and Paul. Because of this, I wouldn't want to risk the little bit of chemistry we have going on now.
What I saw with Sullinger, I LIKED. Yes he's a rookie, but I can find a thread here where half of you are praising him for not playing like one. 7/7 off the bench for this team could/would have been the difference in SEVERAL of our losses (think Hornets, Heat, even OKC maybe).
Is Paul the same as last year? KG? JET? Bass? No.
Why am I wrong for being concerned about what I SAW with mine own eyes and also seen in statistics?
In many of Rondo's dominate games this year...in his trip doubles....we didn't win. Why is that?
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fact is we won a ring with a pretty 'blue collar' version of Rondo, not the star. A handful of what you all would call dominate performances.
we keep pointing at series that Rondo won in 09 and 10 like it might matter.
Sure, all we need is PP/KG/RA in their primes to win a title with a "blue collar" Rondo. Shouldn't be any problems to find players like that on this roster.
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Seriously????
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Agreed. We're now 8 pages into this thread, and I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this argument to support even one claim with a useful fact, or pay attention to any of the facts that have been presented to them.
I'm still waiting for this too.
you mean like how we're 17-11 without Rondo and were 20-23 with him?
And the records with and without Sully are? Considering he went down one game after Rondo, I am sure they are pretty similar right? It's not like the team couldn't make up for his contributions. They continued to win without him, right?
Still waiting on a useful fact from someone on the other side.
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Everyone who said sullinger should pretty much be banned for such absurdity ::)
Rondo lovers really need to get a grip. Just because people don't put rondo on this high pedestal that some of you think he should be on does NOT mean you have to be so nasty just because someone disagrees with you.
Some people on here didn't like the way this team played when rondo was controlling the offense. That is completely understandable.
Some people think him coming back could mess with chemistry, hard to argue how that might indeed be a possibility and even has a realistic chance of happening.
Its also hard to argue that this teams biggest problem right now is not having enough quality bigs who can rebound and keep people out the paint.
So, even tho you may disagree *And that's fine* acting like people that pick sullinger are morons is completely uncalled for and not even remotely true.
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Agreed. We're now 8 pages into this thread, and I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this argument to support even one claim with a useful fact, or pay attention to any of the facts that have been presented to them.
I'm still waiting for this too.
you mean like how we're 17-11 without Rondo and were 20-23 with him?
And the records with and without Sully are? Considering he went down one game after Rondo, I am sure they are pretty similar right? It's not like the team couldn't make up for his contributions. They continued to win without him, right?
Still waiting on a useful fact from someone on the other side.
right. so disregard the only stat that matters, because we get higher in the standings based on our assists, blocks, and other useless thing.
and when i pose to you the offensive/def/usage ratings with and without Rondo, you'll just disregard those too and say i'm skewing stats.
i've done this before brother. pick any other Rondo 'bashing' thread.
i hold on to MY OPINION
you don't like it, so sorry for you.
I do not want the Rondo I saw from earlier this year back.
I do want the Sully I saw from earlier this year back, though.
If Rondo from years passed wants to return, I can get with that.
If Rondo who passes the ball to open teammates whomever they are comes back, I can also get with that.
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Agreed. We're now 8 pages into this thread, and I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this argument to support even one claim with a useful fact, or pay attention to any of the facts that have been presented to them.
I'm still waiting for this too.
you mean like how we're 17-11 without Rondo and were 20-23 with him?
And the records with and without Sully are? Considering he went down one game after Rondo, I am sure they are pretty similar right? It's not like the team couldn't make up for his contributions. They continued to win without him, right?
Still waiting on a useful fact from someone on the other side.
hold on i just realized what you said
we found someone to make up for sully's contributions...sure...not up to that standard but close.
but we also found someone to not only make up for Rondo's contributions, but I can argue that those someones did it BETTER...why?
17-11 vs 20-23
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Agreed. We're now 8 pages into this thread, and I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this argument to support even one claim with a useful fact, or pay attention to any of the facts that have been presented to them.
I'm still waiting for this too.
you mean like how we're 17-11 without Rondo and were 20-23 with him?
And the records with and without Sully are? Considering he went down one game after Rondo, I am sure they are pretty similar right? It's not like the team couldn't make up for his contributions. They continued to win without him, right?
Still waiting on a useful fact from someone on the other side.
hold on i just realized what you said
we found someone to make up for sully's contributions...sure...not up to that standard but close.
but we also found someone to not only make up for Rondo's contributions, but I can argue that those someones did it BETTER...why?
17-11 vs 20-23
Um, they both went out around the same time. The team continued to win w/o Sully. The team has a better record w/o Sully too. How are using this fact against Rondo, but not Sully?
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Secondly, there are people referencing statistics but guess what...STATISTICS AREN'T THE ENTIRE GAME!! YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS!!
But at the end of the day it's about WINS AND LOSSES.
Aren't these two statements completely contradictory of each other? You claim that stats aren't everything, and yet your whole argument ultimately comes down to our record with/without Rondo. Are you dismissing all of the reasons (that others have already pointed out multiple times) about why the TEAM might have been slumping during the first few months of the season or was Green's comeback from surgery and Bradley's absence Rondo's fault too?
In many of Rondo's dominate games this year...in his trip doubles....we didn't win. Why is that?
vs CHI 20/10/9 - W
vs ORL 15/16/9 - W
vs PHI 16/14/13 - L
vs DAL 16/15/9 - W
vs ATL 14/10/11 - W
vs CHA 17/12/10 - W
vs NYK 23/11/10 - L
vs ATL 16/11/10 - L (game where he tore his ACL))
We're 5-3 when Rondo dominates/has a triple double this season. Overall, the C's have won 23 games and have lost just 5 when he gets a triple dub. So my guess is to look at how the other players performed in those losses if you really want to know why we didn't win.
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Secondly, there are people referencing statistics but guess what...STATISTICS AREN'T THE ENTIRE GAME!! YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS!!
But at the end of the day it's about WINS AND LOSSES.
Aren't these two statements completely contradictory of each other? You claim that stats aren't everything, and yet your whole argument ultimately comes down to our record with/without Rondo. Are you dismissing all of the reasons (that others have already pointed out multiple times) about why the TEAM might have been slumping during the first few months of the season or was Green's comeback from surgery and Bradley's absence Rondo's fault too?
In many of Rondo's dominate games this year...in his trip doubles....we didn't win. Why is that?
vs CHI 20/10/9 - W
vs ORL 15/16/9 - W
vs PHI 16/14/13 - L
vs DAL 16/15/9 - W
vs ATL 14/10/11 - W
vs CHA 17/12/10 - W
vs NYK 23/11/10 - L
vs ATL 16/11/10 - L (game where he tore his ACL))
We're 5-3 when Rondo dominates/has a triple double this season. Overall, the C's have won 23 games and have lost just 5 when he gets a triple dub. So my guess is to look at how the other players performed in those losses if you really want to know why we didn't win.
vs OKC 6/16/8 - W
vs PHI 7/11/9 - W
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Agreed. We're now 8 pages into this thread, and I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this argument to support even one claim with a useful fact, or pay attention to any of the facts that have been presented to them.
I'm still waiting for this too.
you mean like how we're 17-11 without Rondo and were 20-23 with him?
And the records with and without Sully are? Considering he went down one game after Rondo, I am sure they are pretty similar right? It's not like the team couldn't make up for his contributions. They continued to win without him, right?
Still waiting on a useful fact from someone on the other side.
hold on i just realized what you said
we found someone to make up for sully's contributions...sure...not up to that standard but close.
but we also found someone to not only make up for Rondo's contributions, but I can argue that those someones did it BETTER...why?
17-11 vs 20-23
Just out of curiosity, did you notice anything in the first 2-3 months of the season that contributed to our 20-23 record besides Rondo's play?
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Embarrassing thread
Uhh rondo and it's not even close.
This.
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Enough with all of the attacks and shots at the viewpoints of others. Please review the rules here:
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=10.msg944643#msg944643
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Everyone who said sullinger should pretty much be banned for such absurdity ::)
Rondo lovers really need to get a grip. Just because people don't put rondo on this high pedestal that some of you think he should be on does NOT mean you have to be so nasty just because someone disagrees with you.
Some people on here didn't like the way this team played when rondo was controlling the offense. That is completely understandable.
Some people think him coming back could mess with chemistry, hard to argue how that might indeed be a possibility and even has a realistic chance of happening.
Its also hard to argue that this teams biggest problem right now is not having enough quality bigs who can rebound and keep people out the paint.
So, even tho you may disagree *And that's fine* acting like people that pick sullinger are morons is completely uncalled for and not even remotely true.
Wanting to go into the playoffs with Sully instead of Rondo is similar to wanting to play with Green instead of Garnett or Bradley over Pierce. The Celts can go into a playoff series with Rondo and there's a decent chance he'll be the best or second best player in the series. Are you claiming that you can say the same about Sully, or that having such players aren't overly necessary to win in the postseason?
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Enough with all of the attacks and shots at the viewpoints of others. Please review the rules here:
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=10.msg944643#msg944643
Yeah. Stop calling other people's opinions "embarassing", "absurd", or "disgraceful" just because you disagree! It is CelticsBlog Forums!! Everyone has their right to their own opinion, no matter how "stupid"!
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Agreed. We're now 8 pages into this thread, and I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this argument to support even one claim with a useful fact, or pay attention to any of the facts that have been presented to them.
I'm still waiting for this too.
you mean like how we're 17-11 without Rondo and were 20-23 with him?
And the records with and without Sully are? Considering he went down one game after Rondo, I am sure they are pretty similar right? It's not like the team couldn't make up for his contributions. They continued to win without him, right?
Still waiting on a useful fact from someone on the other side.
hold on i just realized what you said
we found someone to make up for sully's contributions...sure...not up to that standard but close.
but we also found someone to not only make up for Rondo's contributions, but I can argue that those someones did it BETTER...why?
17-11 vs 20-23
Just out of curiosity, did you notice anything in the first 2-3 months of the season that contributed to our 20-23 record besides Rondo's play?
yea
i saw Rondo only passing to KG and PP.
I saw BB bricking lots of makeable shots.
I saw Rondo letting the defense set up.
I also saw him driving to the lane only to pass on a wide open layup.
I saw Doc using JET as the exact replacement to Ray Allen.
I saw LB get no minutes, even when after the first game, he scored like...12 straight to get us within 4 or sumn against the Heatles.
I saw lots of things. But mainly my disdain was with Rondo. He often looked off a cutting Jeff. Forced things with KG and PP. Made fancy passes to Bass who couldn't catch them. He and Wilcox were magic though.
So forgive if my thinking then contributes to my thinking now.
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Secondly, there are people referencing statistics but guess what...STATISTICS AREN'T THE ENTIRE GAME!! YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS!!
But at the end of the day it's about WINS AND LOSSES.
Aren't these two statements completely contradictory of each other? You claim that stats aren't everything, and yet your whole argument ultimately comes down to our record with/without Rondo. Are you dismissing all of the reasons (that others have already pointed out multiple times) about why the TEAM might have been slumping during the first few months of the season or was Green's comeback from surgery and Bradley's absence Rondo's fault too?
In many of Rondo's dominate games this year...in his trip doubles....we didn't win. Why is that?
vs CHI 20/10/9 - W
vs ORL 15/16/9 - W
vs PHI 16/14/13 - L
vs DAL 16/15/9 - W
vs ATL 14/10/11 - W
vs CHA 17/12/10 - W
vs NYK 23/11/10 - L
vs ATL 16/11/10 - L (game where he tore his ACL))
We're 5-3 when Rondo dominates/has a triple double this season. Overall, the C's have won 23 games and have lost just 5 when he gets a triple dub. So my guess is to look at how the other players performed in those losses if you really want to know why we didn't win.
contradictory? I'm talking about statistics that are not 'wins' vs 'losses'...so no...it's not contradictory. I also went on to say later in this thread that I've looked at the stats, but I rarely reference them because the stat buffs here only look at stats and when you have credible ones, you're just skewing them to say what you want. then, you get called everything but a child of God when you're not on Rondo's...umm...'train'.
And how do you add games that aren't triple doubles...aren't we talking about those? We're 2-3, and in those 2 games he didn't have a dominate scoring total either. and I apologize cuz I meant high scoring domination as well. so forgive me there
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I'd want the better player, we need talent over fit right now, and Rondo is head, shoulders, and feet above Sullinger right now.
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you guys get really upset when someone disagrees with you lol
sheesh
And you don't? All of your posts above suggest otherwise.
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Everyone who said sullinger should pretty much be banned for such absurdity ::)
Rondo lovers really need to get a grip. Just because people don't put rondo on this high pedestal that some of you think he should be on does NOT mean you have to be so nasty just because someone disagrees with you.
Some people on here didn't like the way this team played when rondo was controlling the offense. That is completely understandable.
Some people think him coming back could mess with chemistry, hard to argue how that might indeed be a possibility and even has a realistic chance of happening.
Its also hard to argue that this teams biggest problem right now is not having enough quality bigs who can rebound and keep people out the paint.
So, even tho you may disagree *And that's fine* acting like people that pick sullinger are morons is completely uncalled for and not even remotely true.
Wanting to go into the playoffs with Sully instead of Rondo is similar to wanting to play with Green instead of Garnett or Bradley over Pierce. The Celts can go into a playoff series with Rondo and there's a decent chance he'll be the best or second best player in the series. Are you claiming that you can say the same about Sully, or that having such players aren't overly necessary to win in the postseason?
I disagree with everything in bold. Rondo is no where near as important to this team as pierce or KG. Also, what I'm saying is, I have yet to see THIS TEAM play well when rondo was the one controlling the offense.
By this team I mean this year. What I'm saying is, I could see rondo coming back and the chemistry this team built go straight in the toilet. What I'm claiming is this teams biggest need is having another BIG next to KG that can rebound and keep people out the paint.
Id rather have another good big next to KG than to have rondo come back If I had to pick between the two. If you disagree, whatever. That's my stance.
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Neither. We have Shav (have him play 1-5)lol!! ;D lIghten up folks these are all just opinions.
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Agreed. We're now 8 pages into this thread, and I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this argument to support even one claim with a useful fact, or pay attention to any of the facts that have been presented to them.
I'm still waiting for this too.
you mean like how we're 17-11 without Rondo and were 20-23 with him?
And the records with and without Sully are? Considering he went down one game after Rondo, I am sure they are pretty similar right? It's not like the team couldn't make up for his contributions. They continued to win without him, right?
Still waiting on a useful fact from someone on the other side.
hold on i just realized what you said
we found someone to make up for sully's contributions...sure...not up to that standard but close.
but we also found someone to not only make up for Rondo's contributions, but I can argue that those someones did it BETTER...why?
17-11 vs 20-23
Just out of curiosity, did you notice anything in the first 2-3 months of the season that contributed to our 20-23 record besides Rondo's play?
yea
i saw Rondo only passing to KG and PP.
I saw BB bricking lots of makeable shots.
I saw Rondo letting the defense set up.
I also saw him driving to the lane only to pass on a wide open layup.
I saw Doc using JET as the exact replacement to Ray Allen.
I saw LB get no minutes, even when after the first game, he scored like...12 straight to get us within 4 or sumn against the Heatles.
I saw lots of things. But mainly my disdain was with Rondo. He often looked off a cutting Jeff. Forced things with KG and PP. Made fancy passes to Bass who couldn't catch them. He and Wilcox were magic though.
So forgive if my thinking then contributes to my thinking now.
First of all what you were seeing wasn't necessarily what was happening. Green was taking more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has been without Rondo and Rondo was getting assists on about the same percentage of Green's baskets as Pierce's. It's also not really the case that Rondo drives the lane and passes up wide open layups. There's generally a big from the other team near the rim when that happens, but he doesn't contest Rondo's shot because Rondo passes the ball.
But beyond that I'd say that you missed some major causes of our 20-23 start. One thing was stretches of poor play from some of our better offensive players. Pierce and Jet both started out the year playing pretty well and slumped in Dec/Jan. Green's play wasn't very good until it started improving in January. But the biggest reason that the team was losing games earlier in the season was our defense. The new guys were learning the system and missed a lot of rotations. The bigs aside from KG were playing poorly so whenever he left the game the defense was terrible.
It's fine that your thinking then contributes to your thinking now, I just don't think that your thinking then was very accurate.
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you guys get really upset when someone disagrees with you lol
sheesh
And you don't? All of your posts above suggest otherwise.
i haven't called anyone stupid etc etc
i'm standing by my point
idc if you agree or disagree, just don't try to act like i'm an imbecile for thinking against what you believe. and if you bring up a point, i have the right to tell you, again, why i stand by what I said.
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Agreed. We're now 8 pages into this thread, and I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this argument to support even one claim with a useful fact, or pay attention to any of the facts that have been presented to them.
I'm still waiting for this too.
you mean like how we're 17-11 without Rondo and were 20-23 with him?
And the records with and without Sully are? Considering he went down one game after Rondo, I am sure they are pretty similar right? It's not like the team couldn't make up for his contributions. They continued to win without him, right?
Still waiting on a useful fact from someone on the other side.
hold on i just realized what you said
we found someone to make up for sully's contributions...sure...not up to that standard but close.
but we also found someone to not only make up for Rondo's contributions, but I can argue that those someones did it BETTER...why?
17-11 vs 20-23
Just out of curiosity, did you notice anything in the first 2-3 months of the season that contributed to our 20-23 record besides Rondo's play?
yea
i saw Rondo only passing to KG and PP.
I saw BB bricking lots of makeable shots.
I saw Rondo letting the defense set up.
I also saw him driving to the lane only to pass on a wide open layup.
I saw Doc using JET as the exact replacement to Ray Allen.
I saw LB get no minutes, even when after the first game, he scored like...12 straight to get us within 4 or sumn against the Heatles.
I saw lots of things. But mainly my disdain was with Rondo. He often looked off a cutting Jeff. Forced things with KG and PP. Made fancy passes to Bass who couldn't catch them. He and Wilcox were magic though.
So forgive if my thinking then contributes to my thinking now.
First of all what you were seeing wasn't necessarily what was happening. Green was taking more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has been without Rondo and Rondo was getting assists on about the same percentage of Green's baskets as Pierce's. It's also not really the case that Rondo drives the lane and passes up wide open layups. There's generally a big from the other team near the rim when that happens, but he doesn't contest Rondo's shot because Rondo passes the ball.
But beyond that I'd say that you missed some major causes of our 20-23 start. One thing was stretches of poor play from some of our better offensive players. Pierce and Jet both started out the year playing pretty well and slumped in Dec/Jan. Green's play wasn't very good until it started improving in January. But the biggest reason that the team was losing games earlier in the season was our defense. The new guys were learning the system and missed a lot of rotations. The bigs aside from KG were playing poorly so whenever he left the game the defense was terrible.
It's fine that your thinking then contributes to your thinking now, I just don't think that your thinking then was very accurate.
well, you asked me what i noticed and that's it. there's stats every to show whether i'm right or whether you're right. that's just how stats go...i guess around here they do.
i'm also not dismissing the slumps of everyone else, etc etc. I get that but I'm not making excuses. I said before, whatever the reason was, before we weren't getting the job done. and i find it hard to believe that all of those reasons was for one or the other. I think it's a healthy combo from both.
for example (and this is all more opinion), I felt like I saw Rondo forcing it to PP throughout his slump. And there's a difference between forcing it and making the shots. Forcing it means at this point he had taken a good amount of shots and maybe hit 1 or 2. Now, if Paul hits these shots, sure we win! That darned slump!!!
But also, if Rondo used his decision making skills, felt like it was more important to win, then why not involve someone else on offense? I mean I've seen Jeff Green just sitting under the basket only for Rondo to pass it to PP to through up a contested jumper. I've seen Rondo look off a JET wide open to through it to KG who was knocking with a bigger guy and had to throw up a prayer fadeaway. I've SEEN that.
So that's my thinking. There are ways to overcome the cards we we're dealt. I think Rondo played his cards poorly.
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Everyone who said sullinger should pretty much be banned for such absurdity ::)
Rondo lovers really need to get a grip. Just because people don't put rondo on this high pedestal that some of you think he should be on does NOT mean you have to be so nasty just because someone disagrees with you.
Some people on here didn't like the way this team played when rondo was controlling the offense. That is completely understandable.
Some people think him coming back could mess with chemistry, hard to argue how that might indeed be a possibility and even has a realistic chance of happening.
Its also hard to argue that this teams biggest problem right now is not having enough quality bigs who can rebound and keep people out the paint.
So, even tho you may disagree *And that's fine* acting like people that pick sullinger are morons is completely uncalled for and not even remotely true.
Wanting to go into the playoffs with Sully instead of Rondo is similar to wanting to play with Green instead of Garnett or Bradley over Pierce. The Celts can go into a playoff series with Rondo and there's a decent chance he'll be the best or second best player in the series. Are you claiming that you can say the same about Sully, or that having such players aren't overly necessary to win in the postseason?
I disagree with everything in bold. Rondo is no where near as important to this team as pierce or KG. Also, what I'm saying is, I have yet to see THIS TEAM play well when rondo was the one controlling the offense.
By this team I mean this year. What I'm saying is, I could see rondo coming back and the chemistry this team built go straight in the toilet. What I'm claiming is this teams biggest need is having another BIG next to KG that can rebound and keep people out the paint.
Id rather have another good big next to KG than to have rondo come back If I had to pick between the two. If you disagree, whatever. That's my stance.
Rondo scored or assisted a higher percentage of his team's points in the playoffs last year than any other player in the league. Claiming that he's nowhere near as important to the team as KG and PP is silly. And it's great that you have to qualify your comments about Rondo with "THIS TEAM" due to your small sample size, as if his entire career (including the time he spent last year playing with the other four starters we have) is somehow irrelevant. But in this case I'd say that it still falls short.
If you look at our offense up to late Nov (around the time Rondo's assist streak ended) we were a top 10 offense, 6th in eFG% and 3rd in TS%. So THIS TEAM playing well with Rondo controlling the offense clearly occurred, you just weren't paying attention when it did.
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Agreed. We're now 8 pages into this thread, and I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this argument to support even one claim with a useful fact, or pay attention to any of the facts that have been presented to them.
I'm still waiting for this too.
you mean like how we're 17-11 without Rondo and were 20-23 with him?
And the records with and without Sully are? Considering he went down one game after Rondo, I am sure they are pretty similar right? It's not like the team couldn't make up for his contributions. They continued to win without him, right?
Still waiting on a useful fact from someone on the other side.
hold on i just realized what you said
we found someone to make up for sully's contributions...sure...not up to that standard but close.
but we also found someone to not only make up for Rondo's contributions, but I can argue that those someones did it BETTER...why?
17-11 vs 20-23
Just out of curiosity, did you notice anything in the first 2-3 months of the season that contributed to our 20-23 record besides Rondo's play?
yea
i saw Rondo only passing to KG and PP.
I saw BB bricking lots of makeable shots.
I saw Rondo letting the defense set up.
I also saw him driving to the lane only to pass on a wide open layup.
I saw Doc using JET as the exact replacement to Ray Allen.
I saw LB get no minutes, even when after the first game, he scored like...12 straight to get us within 4 or sumn against the Heatles.
I saw lots of things. But mainly my disdain was with Rondo. He often looked off a cutting Jeff. Forced things with KG and PP. Made fancy passes to Bass who couldn't catch them. He and Wilcox were magic though.
So forgive if my thinking then contributes to my thinking now.
First of all what you were seeing wasn't necessarily what was happening. Green was taking more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has been without Rondo and Rondo was getting assists on about the same percentage of Green's baskets as Pierce's. It's also not really the case that Rondo drives the lane and passes up wide open layups. There's generally a big from the other team near the rim when that happens, but he doesn't contest Rondo's shot because Rondo passes the ball.
But beyond that I'd say that you missed some major causes of our 20-23 start. One thing was stretches of poor play from some of our better offensive players. Pierce and Jet both started out the year playing pretty well and slumped in Dec/Jan. Green's play wasn't very good until it started improving in January. But the biggest reason that the team was losing games earlier in the season was our defense. The new guys were learning the system and missed a lot of rotations. The bigs aside from KG were playing poorly so whenever he left the game the defense was terrible.
It's fine that your thinking then contributes to your thinking now, I just don't think that your thinking then was very accurate.
well, you asked me what i noticed and that's it. there's stats every to show whether i'm right or whether you're right. that's just how stats go...i guess around here they do.
i'm also not dismissing the slumps of everyone else, etc etc. I get that but I'm not making excuses. I said before, whatever the reason was, before we weren't getting the job done. and i find it hard to believe that all of those reasons was for one or the other. I think it's a healthy combo from both.
for example (and this is all more opinion), I felt like I saw Rondo forcing it to PP throughout his slump. And there's a difference between forcing it and making the shots. Forcing it means at this point he had taken a good amount of shots and maybe hit 1 or 2. Now, if Paul hits these shots, sure we win! That darned slump!!!
But also, if Rondo used his decision making skills, felt like it was more important to win, then why not involve someone else on offense? I mean I've seen Jeff Green just sitting under the basket only for Rondo to pass it to PP to through up a contested jumper. I've seen Rondo look off a JET wide open to through it to KG who was knocking with a bigger guy and had to throw up a prayer fadeaway. I've SEEN that.
So that's my thinking. There are ways to overcome the cards we we're dealt. I think Rondo played his cards poorly.
I wouldn't be surprised if you've SEEN Rondo look off a JET wide open to through it to KG who was knocking with a bigger guy or Green just sitting under the basket only for Rondo to pass it to PP to through up a contested jumper. With the number of decisions Rondo makes during the course of a game you're bound to find mistakes, you could do the same with any other player in the league. But it's worth pointing out that you're criticizing Rondo for passing to PP when Paul was in a slump and also criticizing him for not passing it more to Terry and Green, who were also in slumps. I'd also say that players like PP and KG have had enough games where they shot poorly for a while and then got hot that you can't really say that to stop having them shoot is a good idea.
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Everyone who said sullinger should pretty much be banned for such absurdity ::)
Rondo lovers really need to get a grip. Just because people don't put rondo on this high pedestal that some of you think he should be on does NOT mean you have to be so nasty just because someone disagrees with you.
Some people on here didn't like the way this team played when rondo was controlling the offense. That is completely understandable.
Some people think him coming back could mess with chemistry, hard to argue how that might indeed be a possibility and even has a realistic chance of happening.
Its also hard to argue that this teams biggest problem right now is not having enough quality bigs who can rebound and keep people out the paint.
So, even tho you may disagree *And that's fine* acting like people that pick sullinger are morons is completely uncalled for and not even remotely true.
Wanting to go into the playoffs with Sully instead of Rondo is similar to wanting to play with Green instead of Garnett or Bradley over Pierce. The Celts can go into a playoff series with Rondo and there's a decent chance he'll be the best or second best player in the series. Are you claiming that you can say the same about Sully, or that having such players aren't overly necessary to win in the postseason?
I disagree with everything in bold. Rondo is no where near as important to this team as pierce or KG. Also, what I'm saying is, I have yet to see THIS TEAM play well when rondo was the one controlling the offense.
By this team I mean this year. What I'm saying is, I could see rondo coming back and the chemistry this team built go straight in the toilet. What I'm claiming is this teams biggest need is having another BIG next to KG that can rebound and keep people out the paint.
Id rather have another good big next to KG than to have rondo come back If I had to pick between the two. If you disagree, whatever. That's my stance.
Totally agree
Yes Rondo may be the best/second play in the series
but to win a game needs an overall effort
Rondo came back in the playoff may be a advantage though because he is so good in the playoff
but if you can only choose one i will choose Sullinger
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I would probably chose Rondo over Sullinger.
Eitherway JGreen game/development would be impacted. If Rondo comes back, JGreen will get snubbed and won't get many touches, if Sullinger comes back JGreen will lose minutes.
Green is key. Even more so than Sully and Rondo. But Rondo is very important as well
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Everyone who said sullinger should pretty much be banned for such absurdity ::)
Rondo lovers really need to get a grip. Just because people don't put rondo on this high pedestal that some of you think he should be on does NOT mean you have to be so nasty just because someone disagrees with you.
Some people on here didn't like the way this team played when rondo was controlling the offense. That is completely understandable.
Some people think him coming back could mess with chemistry, hard to argue how that might indeed be a possibility and even has a realistic chance of happening.
Its also hard to argue that this teams biggest problem right now is not having enough quality bigs who can rebound and keep people out the paint.
So, even tho you may disagree *And that's fine* acting like people that pick sullinger are morons is completely uncalled for and not even remotely true.
Wanting to go into the playoffs with Sully instead of Rondo is similar to wanting to play with Green instead of Garnett or Bradley over Pierce. The Celts can go into a playoff series with Rondo and there's a decent chance he'll be the best or second best player in the series. Are you claiming that you can say the same about Sully, or that having such players aren't overly necessary to win in the postseason?
I disagree with everything in bold. Rondo is no where near as important to this team as pierce or KG. Also, what I'm saying is, I have yet to see THIS TEAM play well when rondo was the one controlling the offense.
By this team I mean this year. What I'm saying is, I could see rondo coming back and the chemistry this team built go straight in the toilet. What I'm claiming is this teams biggest need is having another BIG next to KG that can rebound and keep people out the paint.
Id rather have another good big next to KG than to have rondo come back If I had to pick between the two. If you disagree, whatever. That's my stance.
Rondo scored or assisted a higher percentage of his team's points in the playoffs last year than any other player in the league. Claiming that he's nowhere near as important to the team as KG and PP is silly. And it's great that you have to qualify your comments about Rondo with "THIS TEAM" due to your small sample size, as if his entire career (including the time he spent last year playing with the other four starters we have) is somehow irrelevant. But in this case I'd say that it still falls short.
If you look at our offense up to late Nov (around the time Rondo's assist streak ended) we were a top 10 offense, 6th in eFG% and 3rd in TS%. So THIS TEAM playing well with Rondo controlling the offense clearly occurred, you just weren't paying attention when it did.
Lol if you're trying to tell me that this team was playing well this year with rondo then I have nothing else left to say to you. They might have had some games here and there where they looked ok but overall, no.
I've never seen a team play well and lose so much and look like crap while doing it. Oh, but I just wasn't paying attention lol. ::) I think you're the one not paying attention.
I've already explained why you can't compare previous years to this year. It doesn't matter how pretty rondos stats look if the team is losing and playing bad.
I watched the games, and I'm 100 percent sure when I say that this team looked ALOT better AFTER rondo went down. Even the 6 game winning streak with rondo didn't look that good compared to the one we had without him.
You can't play or win a game on a stat sheet. Almost every argument you have NONE of them involve you actually watching the games. Just reading off stats, which explains alot. This current team not only showed no signs of missing rondo, they started WINNING and looking better after he went down. If you can't see that, then I can't help you.
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I would probably chose Rondo over Sullinger.
Eitherway JGreen game/development would be impacted. If Rondo comes back, JGreen will get snubbed and won't get many touches, if Sullinger comes back JGreen will lose minutes.
Green is key. Even more so than Sully and Rondo. But Rondo is very important as well
Green was never "snubbed" by Rondo. He took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he does playing without Rondo. People saw Green having some big games after Rondo went out and it didn't occur to them that it might be due to his getting healthier or his getting more minutes with Sully out. Naturally they attributed his play to Rondo's absence.
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Everyone who said sullinger should pretty much be banned for such absurdity ::)
Rondo lovers really need to get a grip. Just because people don't put rondo on this high pedestal that some of you think he should be on does NOT mean you have to be so nasty just because someone disagrees with you.
Some people on here didn't like the way this team played when rondo was controlling the offense. That is completely understandable.
Some people think him coming back could mess with chemistry, hard to argue how that might indeed be a possibility and even has a realistic chance of happening.
Its also hard to argue that this teams biggest problem right now is not having enough quality bigs who can rebound and keep people out the paint.
So, even tho you may disagree *And that's fine* acting like people that pick sullinger are morons is completely uncalled for and not even remotely true.
Wanting to go into the playoffs with Sully instead of Rondo is similar to wanting to play with Green instead of Garnett or Bradley over Pierce. The Celts can go into a playoff series with Rondo and there's a decent chance he'll be the best or second best player in the series. Are you claiming that you can say the same about Sully, or that having such players aren't overly necessary to win in the postseason?
I disagree with everything in bold. Rondo is no where near as important to this team as pierce or KG. Also, what I'm saying is, I have yet to see THIS TEAM play well when rondo was the one controlling the offense.
By this team I mean this year. What I'm saying is, I could see rondo coming back and the chemistry this team built go straight in the toilet. What I'm claiming is this teams biggest need is having another BIG next to KG that can rebound and keep people out the paint.
Id rather have another good big next to KG than to have rondo come back If I had to pick between the two. If you disagree, whatever. That's my stance.
Rondo scored or assisted a higher percentage of his team's points in the playoffs last year than any other player in the league. Claiming that he's nowhere near as important to the team as KG and PP is silly. And it's great that you have to qualify your comments about Rondo with "THIS TEAM" due to your small sample size, as if his entire career (including the time he spent last year playing with the other four starters we have) is somehow irrelevant. But in this case I'd say that it still falls short.
If you look at our offense up to late Nov (around the time Rondo's assist streak ended) we were a top 10 offense, 6th in eFG% and 3rd in TS%. So THIS TEAM playing well with Rondo controlling the offense clearly occurred, you just weren't paying attention when it did.
Lol if you're trying to tell me that this team was playing well this year with rondo then I have nothing else left to say to you. They might have had some games here and there where they looked ok but overall, no.
I've never seen a team play well and lose so much and look like crap while doing it. Oh, but I just wasn't paying attention lol. ::) I think you're the one not paying attention.
You're right that the team was losing (feel free to congratulate yourself with a few more lols) but you don't seem to have much of an idea of why we were losing or how it relates to Rondo. The main problem with the team was our defense early in the year, *not* the Rondo controlled offense. Plenty of new players trying to learn the system, plenty of missed rotations, plenty of disastrous shifts with KG on the bench.
It took a while for the defense to come together. At the end of Nov we were 22nd in defense, at the end of Dec 18th, 9th at the end of Jan and 5th now. Clearly the team has improved over the course of the year, clearly that improvement started well before Rondo left. Couple that with a few key offensive players slumping due to injury (or, in your mind, because of Rondo), and it's easy to see why we were playing poorly. So, yes, when you try and blame our early season woes on Rondo I'm fairly certain that you weren't paying attention to what was going on with the team.
I've already explained why you can't compare previous years to this year. It doesn't matter how pretty rondos stats look if the team is losing and playing bad.
You've explained why you want to base all of your judgements on a small sample size this year when you're perfectly aware that looking at Rondo's career in Boston will show your claims to be ridiculous. I'm not buying your silly claim that the team that entered the 2012 playoffs with *the same 5 starters we had this year* is hugely different than this year's team because it's nonsense.
In fact if you look at last year you'll see a team that was struggling early in the season (mainly because PP and KG were out of shape/injured) and started playing well while Rondo was out with an injury. When Rondo came back and his teammates weren't playing like crap they became one of the best teams in the league and he led them to within a game of the finals. Sound familiar? The only difference between then and now is Rondo came back last year.
You can't play or win a game on a stat sheet. Almost every argument you have NONE of them involve you actually watching the games. Just reading off stats, which explains alot. This current team not only showed no signs of missing rondo, they started WINNING and looking better after he went down. If you can't see that, then I can't help you.
I watch the games, well enough to know what you're saying is wrong. Stats are a way of pointing that out. For instance, when someone claims that we took most of our shots with 3 seconds left on the shot clock with Rondo playing I could ether respond with "no sir" or "most teams take a higher percentage of their shots with 3 seconds left on the shot clock than the Celts, and we take the same percentage of late shots now than we did when Rondo was playing". Which response is more persuasive?
Your answer, cleverly enough, is neither, because just claiming you're wrong proves nothing and someone citing statistics to show that your observations are demonstrably false is a sign the person who disagrees with you doesn't watch the games. Score one for willful ignorance.
By the way, from watching the games I agree with you that the team looks better since Rondo went down. I just don't agree with your claim that Rondo not playing is why we improved. Therefore I don't think that Rondo coming back and playing like a star in Lee's spot would be somehow harmful to this team.
In fact I'm pretty confident that if you took that early season top 10 offense led by Rondo and combined it with the late season defense you'd have the title contender that I expected to see this year. You, on the other hand, will watch the team's (likely) demise in the playoffs and feel confident that our early season struggles prove that the team wouldn't have been better if Rondo came back. I mean it's not like the team hasn't struggled for long stretches during the season and gone on (Rondo led) deep playoffs runs twice in the last 3 years or anything.
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Everyone who said sullinger should pretty much be banned for such absurdity ::)
Rondo lovers really need to get a grip. Just because people don't put rondo on this high pedestal that some of you think he should be on does NOT mean you have to be so nasty just because someone disagrees with you.
Some people on here didn't like the way this team played when rondo was controlling the offense. That is completely understandable.
Some people think him coming back could mess with chemistry, hard to argue how that might indeed be a possibility and even has a realistic chance of happening.
Its also hard to argue that this teams biggest problem right now is not having enough quality bigs who can rebound and keep people out the paint.
So, even tho you may disagree *And that's fine* acting like people that pick sullinger are morons is completely uncalled for and not even remotely true.
Wanting to go into the playoffs with Sully instead of Rondo is similar to wanting to play with Green instead of Garnett or Bradley over Pierce. The Celts can go into a playoff series with Rondo and there's a decent chance he'll be the best or second best player in the series. Are you claiming that you can say the same about Sully, or that having such players aren't overly necessary to win in the postseason?
I disagree with everything in bold. Rondo is no where near as important to this team as pierce or KG. Also, what I'm saying is, I have yet to see THIS TEAM play well when rondo was the one controlling the offense.
By this team I mean this year. What I'm saying is, I could see rondo coming back and the chemistry this team built go straight in the toilet. What I'm claiming is this teams biggest need is having another BIG next to KG that can rebound and keep people out the paint.
Id rather have another good big next to KG than to have rondo come back If I had to pick between the two. If you disagree, whatever. That's my stance.
Rondo scored or assisted a higher percentage of his team's points in the playoffs last year than any other player in the league. Claiming that he's nowhere near as important to the team as KG and PP is silly. And it's great that you have to qualify your comments about Rondo with "THIS TEAM" due to your small sample size, as if his entire career (including the time he spent last year playing with the other four starters we have) is somehow irrelevant. But in this case I'd say that it still falls short.
If you look at our offense up to late Nov (around the time Rondo's assist streak ended) we were a top 10 offense, 6th in eFG% and 3rd in TS%. So THIS TEAM playing well with Rondo controlling the offense clearly occurred, you just weren't paying attention when it did.
Lol if you're trying to tell me that this team was playing well this year with rondo then I have nothing else left to say to you. They might have had some games here and there where they looked ok but overall, no.
I've never seen a team play well and lose so much and look like crap while doing it. Oh, but I just wasn't paying attention lol. ::) I think you're the one not paying attention.
I've already explained why you can't compare previous years to this year. It doesn't matter how pretty rondos stats look if the team is losing and playing bad.
I watched the games, and I'm 100 percent sure when I say that this team looked ALOT better AFTER rondo went down. Even the 6 game winning streak with rondo didn't look that good compared to the one we had without him.
You can't play or win a game on a stat sheet. Almost every argument you have NONE of them involve you actually watching the games. Just reading off stats, which explains alot. This current team not only showed no signs of missing rondo, they started WINNING and looking better after he went down. If you can't see that, then I can't help you.
If you've explained why you can't compare previous years to this year, you haven't done a very good job of it. I don't see why that's the case. What is it that makes you think that the 38 games you saw him play in this season are a more accurate representation of "the true" Rondo than the more than 500 games he's played as a Celtic prior to this season?
Even if I agreed with everything the detractors had to say about Rondo's play this season--which I don't--the argument that we can't use Rondo's past performance as evidence for what type of player he is is nonsense.
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I would probably chose Rondo over Sullinger.
Eitherway JGreen game/development would be impacted. If Rondo comes back, JGreen will get snubbed and won't get many touches, if Sullinger comes back JGreen will lose minutes.
Green is key. Even more so than Sully and Rondo. But Rondo is very important as well
Green was never "snubbed" by Rondo. He took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he does playing without Rondo. People saw Green having some big games after Rondo went out and it didn't occur to them that it might be due to his getting healthier or his getting more minutes with Sully out. Naturally they attributed his play to Rondo's absence.
where are you getting this stat from?
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I would probably chose Rondo over Sullinger.
Eitherway JGreen game/development would be impacted. If Rondo comes back, JGreen will get snubbed and won't get many touches, if Sullinger comes back JGreen will lose minutes.
Green is key. Even more so than Sully and Rondo. But Rondo is very important as well
Green was never "snubbed" by Rondo. He took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he does playing without Rondo. People saw Green having some big games after Rondo went out and it didn't occur to them that it might be due to his getting healthier or his getting more minutes with Sully out. Naturally they attributed his play to Rondo's absence.
where are you getting this stat from?
nba.com. Green averages 12.5 shots per36. He averages 12.9 playing with Rondo, 12.1 playing without Rondo.
If you look at Green's splits somewhere, his fg% was .421 in Nov, .414 in Dec, .485 in Jan, .512 in Feb and .472 in Mar. His 3fg% was .292 in Nov, .324 in Dec, .345 in Jan, .414 in Feb and .429 in Mar. The fact that his shooting started to turn around in Jan (while Rondo was playing) and he's benefited from steadier (and more) minutes since Sully went out, along with the fact that he took more shots per minute when Rondo was playing kind of punch a hole in the "Rondo was the cause of Green's struggles" claim.
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An interesting idea, but pretty simple to solve.
Talent wins championships.
Stars win championships.
Rondo has Sullinger beat in both. The Heat have a terrible front court in the traditional sense and they're still dominating.
We need star power that can carry us for games. Rondo can win a game or two vs the Heat by himself. Sullinger can not.
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I would probably chose Rondo over Sullinger.
Eitherway JGreen game/development would be impacted. If Rondo comes back, JGreen will get snubbed and won't get many touches, if Sullinger comes back JGreen will lose minutes.
Green is key. Even more so than Sully and Rondo. But Rondo is very important as well
Green was never "snubbed" by Rondo. He took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he does playing without Rondo. People saw Green having some big games after Rondo went out and it didn't occur to them that it might be due to his getting healthier or his getting more minutes with Sully out. Naturally they attributed his play to Rondo's absence.
where are you getting this stat from?
nba.com. Green averages 12.5 shots per36. He averages 12.9 playing with Rondo, 12.1 playing without Rondo.
If you look at Green's splits somewhere, his fg% was .421 in Nov, .414 in Dec, .485 in Jan, .512 in Feb and .472 in Mar. His 3fg% was .292 in Nov, .324 in Dec, .345 in Jan, .414 in Feb and .429 in Mar. The fact that his shooting started to turn around in Jan (while Rondo was playing) and he's benefited from steadier (and more) minutes since Sully went out, along with the fact that he took more shots per minute when Rondo was playing kind of punch a hole in the "Rondo was the cause of Green's struggles" claim.
yea but we aren't looking at the types of shots Green was getting and how he was utilized...I'm not sure .8 makes that much of a difference...i know for a fact JG never got over 15 shots (as he's been getting a lot lately).
Anywho...I think the types of shots matter. I think the confidence of his teammates/the chemistry matters. I don't think it punches a hole...I guess it's in how you analyze the data. I felt like in January, Jeff made a turn around thanks to his slump wearing off as well as him being used differently (which I don't NECESSARILY blame on Rondo).
Also...I also want to point out that Jeff was usually like third or so off the bench. He played ALOT with JET, who actually fed him the ball. So I don't think we can just look at that...we got to look at lineups, too.
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An interesting idea, but pretty simple to solve.
Talent wins championships.
Stars win championships.
Rondo has Sullinger beat in both. The Heat have a terrible front court in the traditional sense and they're still dominating.
We need star power that can carry us for games. Rondo can win a game or two vs the Heat by himself. Sullinger can not.
I find it hard to believe a guy that rebounds the ball and plays tough can't spark a win against the Heatles.
If we found out and know anything. It's that the Heat are rattled by physicality and have a weakness for rebounding.
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Everyone who said sullinger should pretty much be banned for such absurdity ::)
Rondo lovers really need to get a grip. Just because people don't put rondo on this high pedestal that some of you think he should be on does NOT mean you have to be so nasty just because someone disagrees with you.
Some people on here didn't like the way this team played when rondo was controlling the offense. That is completely understandable.
Some people think him coming back could mess with chemistry, hard to argue how that might indeed be a possibility and even has a realistic chance of happening.
Its also hard to argue that this teams biggest problem right now is not having enough quality bigs who can rebound and keep people out the paint.
So, even tho you may disagree *And that's fine* acting like people that pick sullinger are morons is completely uncalled for and not even remotely true.
Wanting to go into the playoffs with Sully instead of Rondo is similar to wanting to play with Green instead of Garnett or Bradley over Pierce. The Celts can go into a playoff series with Rondo and there's a decent chance he'll be the best or second best player in the series. Are you claiming that you can say the same about Sully, or that having such players aren't overly necessary to win in the postseason?
I disagree with everything in bold. Rondo is no where near as important to this team as pierce or KG. Also, what I'm saying is, I have yet to see THIS TEAM play well when rondo was the one controlling the offense.
By this team I mean this year. What I'm saying is, I could see rondo coming back and the chemistry this team built go straight in the toilet. What I'm claiming is this teams biggest need is having another BIG next to KG that can rebound and keep people out the paint.
Id rather have another good big next to KG than to have rondo come back If I had to pick between the two. If you disagree, whatever. That's my stance.
Rondo scored or assisted a higher percentage of his team's points in the playoffs last year than any other player in the league. Claiming that he's nowhere near as important to the team as KG and PP is silly. And it's great that you have to qualify your comments about Rondo with "THIS TEAM" due to your small sample size, as if his entire career (including the time he spent last year playing with the other four starters we have) is somehow irrelevant. But in this case I'd say that it still falls short.
If you look at our offense up to late Nov (around the time Rondo's assist streak ended) we were a top 10 offense, 6th in eFG% and 3rd in TS%. So THIS TEAM playing well with Rondo controlling the offense clearly occurred, you just weren't paying attention when it did.
Lol if you're trying to tell me that this team was playing well this year with rondo then I have nothing else left to say to you. They might have had some games here and there where they looked ok but overall, no.
I've never seen a team play well and lose so much and look like crap while doing it. Oh, but I just wasn't paying attention lol. ::) I think you're the one not paying attention.
I've already explained why you can't compare previous years to this year. It doesn't matter how pretty rondos stats look if the team is losing and playing bad.
I watched the games, and I'm 100 percent sure when I say that this team looked ALOT better AFTER rondo went down. Even the 6 game winning streak with rondo didn't look that good compared to the one we had without him.
You can't play or win a game on a stat sheet. Almost every argument you have NONE of them involve you actually watching the games. Just reading off stats, which explains alot. This current team not only showed no signs of missing rondo, they started WINNING and looking better after he went down. If you can't see that, then I can't help you.
If you've explained why you can't compare previous years to this year, you haven't done a very good job of it. I don't see why that's the case. What is it that makes you think that the 38 games you saw him play in this season are a more accurate representation of "the true" Rondo than the more than 500 games he's played as a Celtic prior to this season?
Even if I agreed with everything the detractors had to say about Rondo's play this season--which I don't--the argument that we can't use Rondo's past performance as evidence for what type of player he is is nonsense.
because this is this year and 500 games was yesterday. You don't discount the yesterday completely, but todays don't think you think matters a little more??
Let me put it to you this way. There is a pretty big difference from a 2010 to 2011 paul pierce. Same can be said about KG. The issue is age, the reason why play is not as great.
You get another example in Arenas, who let his contract get to his brains, not as great effort as previous contract year and suddenly is no longer in the nba.
This year the variables are, Rondo let the "star" label get to him, new temmates, more control of decision making, no ray allen, pp and kg not as youthful anymore. But then you have to adjust. Work with your new but talented teammates but play the same hard way you have before. The guy didn't adjust and everyone was just remaining optimistic like "lets just wait, lets just wait". Well half the season is gone and we are hanging on for our lives. Who cares if playoff rondo will show his magic when we were on the verge of not even making the playoffs.
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An interesting idea, but pretty simple to solve.
Talent wins championships.
Stars win championships.
Rondo has Sullinger beat in both. The Heat have a terrible front court in the traditional sense and they're still dominating.
We need star power that can carry us for games. Rondo can win a game or two vs the Heat by himself. Sullinger can not.
I find it hard to believe a guy that rebounds the ball and plays tough can't spark a win against the Heatles.
If we found out and know anything. It's that the Heat are rattled by physicality and have a weakness for rebounding.
Sullinger can spark a win, but he isn't going to go out and put the whole team on his back to get the win. He could be an integral part in a TEAM win, but Rondo can go out there and get it all by himself.
I'm not saying Rondo definitely will do that, but he has shown in the past that he can do it.
Sullinger may be perfectly capable of taking over a game to win it by himself, but he hasn't shown that yet so its impossible to say for certain.
Yes the heat have shown they have a weakness for physical play and rebounding, but they've aso shown a weakness for Rondo playing out of his mind at the PG position with no one to match against him.
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An interesting idea, but pretty simple to solve.
Talent wins championships.
Stars win championships.
Rondo has Sullinger beat in both. The Heat have a terrible front court in the traditional sense and they're still dominating.
We need star power that can carry us for games. Rondo can win a game or two vs the Heat by himself. Sullinger can not.
I find it hard to believe a guy that rebounds the ball and plays tough can't spark a win against the Heatles.
If we found out and know anything. It's that the Heat are rattled by physicality and have a weakness for rebounding.
Sullinger can spark a win, but he isn't going to go out and put the whole team on his back to get the win. He could be an integral part in a TEAM win, but Rondo can go out there and get it all by himself.
I'm not saying Rondo definitely will do that, but he has shown in the past that he can do it.
Sullinger may be perfectly capable of taking over a game to win it by himself, but he hasn't shown that yet so its impossible to say for certain.
Yes the heat have shown they have a weakness for physical play and rebounding, but they've aso shown a weakness for Rondo playing out of his mind at the PG position with no one to match against him.
This pretty much nails it.
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An interesting idea, but pretty simple to solve.
Talent wins championships.
Stars win championships.
Rondo has Sullinger beat in both. The Heat have a terrible front court in the traditional sense and they're still dominating.
We need star power that can carry us for games. Rondo can win a game or two vs the Heat by himself. Sullinger can not.
I find it hard to believe a guy that rebounds the ball and plays tough can't spark a win against the Heatles.
If we found out and know anything. It's that the Heat are rattled by physicality and have a weakness for rebounding.
Sullinger can spark a win, but he isn't going to go out and put the whole team on his back to get the win. He could be an integral part in a TEAM win, but Rondo can go out there and get it all by himself.
I'm not saying Rondo definitely will do that, but he has shown in the past that he can do it.
Sullinger may be perfectly capable of taking over a game to win it by himself, but he hasn't shown that yet so its impossible to say for certain.
Yes the heat have shown they have a weakness for physical play and rebounding, but they've aso shown a weakness for Rondo playing out of his mind at the PG position with no one to match against him.
heat ousted us last year
i guess i'm willing to take a gander into different things that work
reg season, we're 2-1 against the heat
faced a blowout with Rondo
won without rondo (and with a Sullinger)...in OT by 2. We had the game won, but some costly turnovers made us have to work a lil harder.
lost by 2 with a nutso performance by JG. Had we gotten just one more offensive rebound, we may be singing a different tune. Then again IDK.
my point is, it's really close with the Heat, as it was all last series. I just like to think we have options...and forgive my green glasses or whatever...I guess that's just me.
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I would probably chose Rondo over Sullinger.
Eitherway JGreen game/development would be impacted. If Rondo comes back, JGreen will get snubbed and won't get many touches, if Sullinger comes back JGreen will lose minutes.
Green is key. Even more so than Sully and Rondo. But Rondo is very important as well
Green was never "snubbed" by Rondo. He took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he does playing without Rondo. People saw Green having some big games after Rondo went out and it didn't occur to them that it might be due to his getting healthier or his getting more minutes with Sully out. Naturally they attributed his play to Rondo's absence.
where are you getting this stat from?
nba.com. Green averages 12.5 shots per36. He averages 12.9 playing with Rondo, 12.1 playing without Rondo.
If you look at Green's splits somewhere, his fg% was .421 in Nov, .414 in Dec, .485 in Jan, .512 in Feb and .472 in Mar. His 3fg% was .292 in Nov, .324 in Dec, .345 in Jan, .414 in Feb and .429 in Mar. The fact that his shooting started to turn around in Jan (while Rondo was playing) and he's benefited from steadier (and more) minutes since Sully went out, along with the fact that he took more shots per minute when Rondo was playing kind of punch a hole in the "Rondo was the cause of Green's struggles" claim.
yea but we aren't looking at the types of shots Green was getting and how he was utilized...I'm not sure .8 makes that much of a difference...i know for a fact JG never got over 15 shots (as he's been getting a lot lately).
Anywho...I think the types of shots matter. I think the confidence of his teammates/the chemistry matters. I don't think it punches a hole...I guess it's in how you analyze the data. I felt like in January, Jeff made a turn around thanks to his slump wearing off as well as him being used differently (which I don't NECESSARILY blame on Rondo).
Also...I also want to point out that Jeff was usually like third or so off the bench. He played ALOT with JET, who actually fed him the ball. So I don't think we can just look at that...we got to look at lineups, too.
oh you used per36
but he didn't even play close to 36 minutes...so why use this stat?
he averaged 8.1 shots with Rondo
averages 11.6 shots without Rondo
I'm sorry..I only tend to use per36 when I want to see what someone could do with 36 minutes. I'm trying to analyze the data that's there, not what COULD be there.
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Love Sully but give me Rondo.
Say what you want (detractors) but Rondo makes his money in the Playoffs. And we can REALLY use that.
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I would probably chose Rondo over Sullinger.
Eitherway JGreen game/development would be impacted. If Rondo comes back, JGreen will get snubbed and won't get many touches, if Sullinger comes back JGreen will lose minutes.
Green is key. Even more so than Sully and Rondo. But Rondo is very important as well
Green was never "snubbed" by Rondo. He took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he does playing without Rondo. People saw Green having some big games after Rondo went out and it didn't occur to them that it might be due to his getting healthier or his getting more minutes with Sully out. Naturally they attributed his play to Rondo's absence.
where are you getting this stat from?
nba.com. Green averages 12.5 shots per36. He averages 12.9 playing with Rondo, 12.1 playing without Rondo.
If you look at Green's splits somewhere, his fg% was .421 in Nov, .414 in Dec, .485 in Jan, .512 in Feb and .472 in Mar. His 3fg% was .292 in Nov, .324 in Dec, .345 in Jan, .414 in Feb and .429 in Mar. The fact that his shooting started to turn around in Jan (while Rondo was playing) and he's benefited from steadier (and more) minutes since Sully went out, along with the fact that he took more shots per minute when Rondo was playing kind of punch a hole in the "Rondo was the cause of Green's struggles" claim.
yea but we aren't looking at the types of shots Green was getting and how he was utilized...I'm not sure .8 makes that much of a difference...i know for a fact JG never got over 15 shots (as he's been getting a lot lately).
Anywho...I think the types of shots matter. I think the confidence of his teammates/the chemistry matters. I don't think it punches a hole...I guess it's in how you analyze the data. I felt like in January, Jeff made a turn around thanks to his slump wearing off as well as him being used differently (which I don't NECESSARILY blame on Rondo).
Also...I also want to point out that Jeff was usually like third or so off the bench. He played ALOT with JET, who actually fed him the ball. So I don't think we can just look at that...we got to look at lineups, too.
The reason you don't remember Jeff getting as many shots when Rondo was playing was because Sully was also playing so Jeff wasn't on the court as much. I was talking about how many shots per minute he was getting. So if he's getting slightly fewer shots per minute now but playing significantly more minutes it will result in more total shots now. Also, I was talking about Green's time on the court with Rondo vs his time on the court with Rondo on the bench, not his play in games with and without Rondo. Jet feeding him the ball with Rondo on the bench would result in his getting more shots without Rondo than with Rondo, obviously that's not the case.
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I would probably chose Rondo over Sullinger.
Eitherway JGreen game/development would be impacted. If Rondo comes back, JGreen will get snubbed and won't get many touches, if Sullinger comes back JGreen will lose minutes.
Green is key. Even more so than Sully and Rondo. But Rondo is very important as well
Green was never "snubbed" by Rondo. He took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he does playing without Rondo. People saw Green having some big games after Rondo went out and it didn't occur to them that it might be due to his getting healthier or his getting more minutes with Sully out. Naturally they attributed his play to Rondo's absence.
where are you getting this stat from?
nba.com. Green averages 12.5 shots per36. He averages 12.9 playing with Rondo, 12.1 playing without Rondo.
If you look at Green's splits somewhere, his fg% was .421 in Nov, .414 in Dec, .485 in Jan, .512 in Feb and .472 in Mar. His 3fg% was .292 in Nov, .324 in Dec, .345 in Jan, .414 in Feb and .429 in Mar. The fact that his shooting started to turn around in Jan (while Rondo was playing) and he's benefited from steadier (and more) minutes since Sully went out, along with the fact that he took more shots per minute when Rondo was playing kind of punch a hole in the "Rondo was the cause of Green's struggles" claim.
yea but we aren't looking at the types of shots Green was getting and how he was utilized...I'm not sure .8 makes that much of a difference...i know for a fact JG never got over 15 shots (as he's been getting a lot lately).
Anywho...I think the types of shots matter. I think the confidence of his teammates/the chemistry matters. I don't think it punches a hole...I guess it's in how you analyze the data. I felt like in January, Jeff made a turn around thanks to his slump wearing off as well as him being used differently (which I don't NECESSARILY blame on Rondo).
Also...I also want to point out that Jeff was usually like third or so off the bench. He played ALOT with JET, who actually fed him the ball. So I don't think we can just look at that...we got to look at lineups, too.
oh you used per36
but he didn't even play close to 36 minutes...so why use this stat?
he averaged 8.1 shots with Rondo
averages 11.6 shots without Rondo
I'm sorry..I only tend to use per36 when I want to see what someone could do with 36 minutes. I'm trying to analyze the data that's there, not what COULD be there.
Seriously? Per36 is a per minute stat. It helps people understand things like a player who gets 5 rebounds a game when they play 35 minutes a game isn't a better rebounder than someone who gets 4 rebounds a game in 15 minutes a game. To put this in terms you might understand, when Green plays with Rondo he averages .36 shots a minute, when he plays without Rondo he averages .34 shots a minute, so he obviously shoots more often when he's playing with Rondo.
It's not at all about what COULD be there instead of what IS there, it's a convenient way of discussing stats used by people who understand that how many minutes you play will affect your numbers.
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An interesting idea, but pretty simple to solve.
Talent wins championships.
Stars win championships.
Rondo has Sullinger beat in both. The Heat have a terrible front court in the traditional sense and they're still dominating.
We need star power that can carry us for games. Rondo can win a game or two vs the Heat by himself. Sullinger can not.
I find it hard to believe a guy that rebounds the ball and plays tough can't spark a win against the Heatles.
If we found out and know anything. It's that the Heat are rattled by physicality and have a weakness for rebounding.
Sullinger can spark a win, but he isn't going to go out and put the whole team on his back to get the win. He could be an integral part in a TEAM win, but Rondo can go out there and get it all by himself.
I'm not saying Rondo definitely will do that, but he has shown in the past that he can do it.
Sullinger may be perfectly capable of taking over a game to win it by himself, but he hasn't shown that yet so its impossible to say for certain.
Yes the heat have shown they have a weakness for physical play and rebounding, but they've aso shown a weakness for Rondo playing out of his mind at the PG position with no one to match against him.
heat ousted us last year
i guess i'm willing to take a gander into different things that work
reg season, we're 2-1 against the heat
faced a blowout with Rondo
won without rondo (and with a Sullinger)...in OT by 2. We had the game won, but some costly turnovers made us have to work a lil harder.
lost by 2 with a nutso performance by JG. Had we gotten just one more offensive rebound, we may be singing a different tune. Then again IDK.
my point is, it's really close with the Heat, as it was all last series. I just like to think we have options...and forgive my green glasses or whatever...I guess that's just me.
We were 3-1 vs the Heat in both 10-11 and 11-12, easily handling them in games both years. Take the regular season wins with a grain of salt.
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
are you trying to jig the truth or something?? If you watch one of the many loses with rondo being the dominant ball holder, you will see that indeed he coasts and does plenty of other "bad habits" on the court. Little things that put the team out of sync, suck the energy out of everyone and we end up losing.
Most pg's in the league can be a top assist guy, as long as you have a good player or two to pass to. Westbrooke could prob have the same assist or more if he just concentrated being a pg and passed it to durant and everyone else in okc. Rondo of the past didn't get as many assist as now, but he made the right choice usually and passed it to the open guy. Then that open guy passed it to someone else or to someone at the corner for the three. The new rondo wants to break the assist record and does it by "selectively" passing. He wants screens after screens, picks after picks, so KG or PP can get free to do their thing. But at the cost of again sucking the life out of everyone else.
Why 2008-2010 rondo didn't do this is bc, the big three were the leaders of the team and rondo the side but important player. This is the role Rondo fits best. The blue collar version. From hs, college, Rondo was never considered a star. And not to be down on the guy, but he just doesn't have all the tools to be one in the nba either. If he were smart, he wouldn't let all this "star label" get to him and play the way he has in the past. I'm not stating he can't grab the horns and try to single handedly win games when the team is down, but the best way for him to make an impact is to do all the little things that made him successful in the past. Example, setting picks, diving for the ball, grabbing rebounds then trying to finish for a layup, staying with his man on defense, not bossing guys around so much and barking for the ball every single time after a rebound and most importantly passing the ball to the open guy most of the time, regardless what his name is on the back of his jersey
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
if that point guard plays and his team goes 20-23, i don't necessarily need him (or want him)
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
if that point guard plays and his team goes 20-23, i don't necessarily need him (or want him)
don't worry , this answer won't be accepted by many and the rebuttal will be , how can you diss a guy who once scored 40 plus in a playoff game. Its like Al Bundy reminiscing that he once scored 4 touchdowns in one game
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
if that point guard plays and his team goes 20-23, i don't necessarily need him (or want him)
don't worry , this answer won't be accepted by many and the rebuttal will be , how can you diss a guy who once scored 40 plus in a playoff game. Its like Al Bundy reminiscing that he once scored 4 touchdowns in one game
I think the best thing here is to understand for EVERYONE is that I think myself and guys like triboy16f like TEAM play. Last night everyone who played scored. Jeff was not the only guy who scored 20+...2 other people did. Everyone seemed to bang on the boards a little harder and everyone seemed to know their position. That's the type of ball I love. That's the type of ball that has been significantly better for THIS TEAM.
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
if that point guard plays and his team goes 20-23, i don't necessarily need him (or want him)
Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce both played through every bad streak we've seen over the last few years. The 27-27 finish to the 2010 season, the 10-11 finish in 2011, the 15-17 start in 2012 and the 20-23 start this year. Are they also players that you don't necessarily need or want? Again, start looking for point guards that have never been on teams that went worse than 20-23, pickings will be rather slim.
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
if that point guard plays and his team goes 20-23, i don't necessarily need him (or want him)
don't worry , this answer won't be accepted by many and the rebuttal will be , how can you diss a guy who once scored 40 plus in a playoff game. Its like Al Bundy reminiscing that he once scored 4 touchdowns in one game
The rebuttal is that it's an extremely uninformed opinion. The HOF has plenty of players in it who have gone through stretches as bad (or worse) than 20-23. It's an easy example of how ridiculous comments or criticisms of Rondo sound when you try and apply them to any other player in the nba (like, for example, KG or PP). I'm unsurprised that you'd endorse it.
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An interesting idea, but pretty simple to solve.
Talent wins championships.
Stars win championships.
Rondo has Sullinger beat in both. The Heat have a terrible front court in the traditional sense and they're still dominating.
We need star power that can carry us for games. Rondo can win a game or two vs the Heat by himself. Sullinger can not.
I find it hard to believe a guy that rebounds the ball and plays tough can't spark a win against the Heatles.
If we found out and know anything. It's that the Heat are rattled by physicality and have a weakness for rebounding.
If rebounding and playing tough was all it took to beat the Heat they wouldn't be the best team in the league.
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I thought this was a cut and dry argument ,
Here it is taking a mear 14 pages to hash it out ;D LoL
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Rondo. Sully is nice, but he's also a rookie. Rondo can be the best player in any series in the playoffs (excluding Lebron)
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
if that point guard plays and his team goes 20-23, i don't necessarily need him (or want him)
Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce both played through every bad streak we've seen over the last few years. The 27-27 finish to the 2010 season, the 10-11 finish in 2011, the 15-17 start in 2012 and the 20-23 start this year. Are they also players that you don't necessarily need or want? Again, start looking for point guards that have never been on teams that went worse than 20-23, pickings will be rather slim.
we have seen what happens to our team when kg or pierce is out of the lineup. Its a disaster field, especially kg.
So with Rondo and one or both of these guys out of the lineup, we are doomed. With rondo and these guys in the lineup we are 50-50 this year. Without rondo and these guys we are like 16-7.
As hard i'm on Rondo i do admit , during the 2nd half of the year, things could of changed. Especially Rondo turning things on and playing harder. Its just hard to know bc all i witnessed was a half azzed team that was hanging on for their lives.
If Rondo comeback healthy and we got the same lineup we have now and start playing the same crappy way we did earlier this year than its Rondo. If we play better or Rondo fits in/enhances, than during his break he probably increased respect for the rest of the team and changed his mentality
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
if that point guard plays and his team goes 20-23, i don't necessarily need him (or want him)
Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce both played through every bad streak we've seen over the last few years. The 27-27 finish to the 2010 season, the 10-11 finish in 2011, the 15-17 start in 2012 and the 20-23 start this year. Are they also players that you don't necessarily need or want? Again, start looking for point guards that have never been on teams that went worse than 20-23, pickings will be rather slim.
we have seen what happens to our team when kg or pierce is out of the lineup. Its a disaster field, especially kg.
So with Rondo and one or both of these guys out of the lineup, we are doomed. With rondo and these guys in the lineup we are 50-50 this year. Without rondo and these guys we are like 16-7.
Obviously this doesn't address what I said at all. You're saying we don't need Rondo because we were 20-23 when he played. PP and KG were also playing during that entire 20-23 start and they're indispensable. You're claiming that KG and PP have much more of an impact on the team than Rondo yet the way the team played for the first half of the season was apparently completely unrelated to their play. Why is that?
There's also this:
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/56110/life-without-kg-a-defensive-travesty-for-the-celtics
"But as John Schuhmann of NBA.com first noted on Twitter a few weeks back, Garnett’s life-or-death impact on Boston’s D mysteriously vanished upon the return of Avery Bradley. Since Bradley’s January 2 debut, Boston has been almost exactly as good defensively regardless of whether Garnett plays or sits, and they’ve been a bit better offensively, per NBA.com."
It's simple math to see that if we're almost exactly the same on defense and better on offense when KG's on the bench then we're playing better without him than with him. This is over a *three month* period, and clearly it flies in the face of "Its a disaster field" without KG.
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
are you trying to jig the truth or something?? If you watch one of the many loses with rondo being the dominant ball holder, you will see that indeed he coasts and does plenty of other "bad habits" on the court. Little things that put the team out of sync, suck the energy out of everyone and we end up losing.
Most pg's in the league can be a top assist guy, as long as you have a good player or two to pass to. Westbrooke could prob have the same assist or more if he just concentrated being a pg and passed it to durant and everyone else in okc. Rondo of the past didn't get as many assist as now, but he made the right choice usually and passed it to the open guy. Then that open guy passed it to someone else or to someone at the corner for the three. The new rondo wants to break the assist record and does it by "selectively" passing. He wants screens after screens, picks after picks, so KG or PP can get free to do their thing. But at the cost of again sucking the life out of everyone else.
Claiming any good pg could lead the league in assists is a pretty meaningless comment. It's like saying any top big could lead the league in rebounding or make the all defense team if they really wanted to so KG's accomplishments in those areas don't mean anything. But aside from that the claim that Rondo's assist streak sucks the life out of everyone is utter nonsense. The team was 21-18 last year when his streak started and went 18-9 down the stretch. They went to game 7 of the ECF with Rondo leading the playoffs in assists by a historically large margin.
I don't think you could have watched the end of last season and convinced anyone that Rondo was sucking the life out of Bradley or Bass or Pietrus or Steamer. I also think you'd have trouble getting anyone to buy Terry (who's best month of the season came during the streak) or Sully or even Green (who, again, was getting more shots playing with Rondo) were having the life sucked out of them by Rondo. It's pure celticsblog fantasy.
Why 2008-2010 rondo didn't do this is bc, the big three were the leaders of the team and rondo the side but important player. This is the role Rondo fits best. The blue collar version. From hs, college, Rondo was never considered a star. And not to be down on the guy, but he just doesn't have all the tools to be one in the nba either. If he were smart, he wouldn't let all this "star label" get to him and play the way he has in the past. I'm not stating he can't grab the horns and try to single handedly win games when the team is down, but the best way for him to make an impact is to do all the little things that made him successful in the past. Example, setting picks, diving for the ball, grabbing rebounds then trying to finish for a layup, staying with his man on defense, not bossing guys around so much and barking for the ball every single time after a rebound and most importantly passing the ball to the open guy most of the time, regardless what his name is on the back of his jersey
Rondo does pass the ball to the open man, grab rebounds, sets picks. He takes more layups than the average point guard and his defense has been good enough to make1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 straight years. I don't see why his calling for the ball to try and get an outlet pass and start a transition is a problem, although I understand that people like to criticize him both for trying to get the team into a fast break and walking the ball up court.
So clearly he does the little things that help a team win. But why should that be all that he does? How many other perennial all-stars would you say should avoid "grabbing the horns" unless his team is down in a game? Answer: none, because that's ridiculous. And go ahead and claim that Rondo doesn't have the tools to be a star but he clearly is one and has been for a while.
Rondo dominates playoff games (and series) on a fairly regular basis, and he does it in a number of ways. In the last 4 years of playoffs he's got 7 of the 9 highest assist games in that time and more than half of all the games with 12 or more assists. He has 7 of the 8 highest rebounding games for pgs and almost 3/4 of the 10+ rebound games. He has more triple doubles than the rest of the league combined over that time period. Last year in the playoffs the only player in the league to generate (score or assist) more points a game than Rondo was LeBron. Clearly he has the tools to be a star in the nba.
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Larry Bird
then Rondo
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if that point guard plays and his team goes 20-23, i don't necessarily need him (or want him)
While we're at it, cut KG, Pierce, Lee, Green and the rest of the team. A load of scrubs. We need to sign real winners out of the China and European league who have never lost an NBA game. THOSE are the type of winners we want on our team.
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We were 21-23 with Sullinger, and we are 17-11 without him. He clearly made the team worse.
I don't need a PF who made our team play less than .500 ball.
Ever since Sullinger went out we have played much better as a team.
Now that Sullinger is out, Green has blossomed into the player we all hoped we could be. Sullinger clearly was holding him back.
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
if that point guard plays and his team goes 20-23, i don't necessarily need him (or want him)
don't worry , this answer won't be accepted by many and the rebuttal will be , how can you diss a guy who once scored 40 plus in a playoff game. Its like Al Bundy reminiscing that he once scored 4 touchdowns in one game
This just doesn't make sense to me. If your argument is that you don't want/like Rondo because he coasts throughout the regular season and yet he is still easily a top 10 PG if not top 5, then wouldn't you want him even more? If he can screw his head on straight and play hard throughout the season would he then be the #1 PG since he isn't putting in full effort now?
Or is your argument is that because this team struggled and went 20-23 at the start of the season and the blame should be put on his shoulders alone despite other players being injured/not hitting their stride yet? Because in that case we should be clearing out a lot of other lockers first since Rondo was averaging a double double during that period. He was most certainly not the sole reason for the struggles and in fact probably prevented our record from being even worse than that.
I think the only valid argument that I've heard expressed as to why to get rid of Rondo (and maybe this is what you were trying to say and I misunderstood) is that Rondo doesn't fit with this current Celtics roster. And since he is our only truly valuable trade asset he should be moved to bring in pieces that would better fit this team's style and help us build for the future. And even that I disagree with, but its a matter of opinion over how this team best operates and what is best for the future, but definitely not a matter of discussing whether Rondo is a star or not (that point is proven by the eye test and the stats that back it up).
I don't think most people here who are favoring Rondo are doing so based purely on his past performance Al Bundy style, but are more focused on his talent that was still on display even during the 20-23 rough start and over the last few seasons.
Rondo has tremendous ability and if you think he is somehow not putting in enough effort that just means he could be even better. BballTim has posted the stats to back up the point in leading the league in assists and rebounds for PGs plus being towards the top for his position defensively.
Yes people harp on about his playoff performances, but thats where you earn your money and your reputation and Rondo has put together some spectacular performances. His ability to turn it up a notch in crunch time and in big games shouldn't be held against him, its an ASSET. Maybe its a signal he could put more effort in during the regular season but its is DEFINITELY a signal that come playoff team he can carry a team, a trait only a handful of guys have in the association.
Rondo is an NBA star, whether you want him on the Celtics or not is another question, but you can't deny his talent.
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
if that point guard plays and his team goes 20-23, i don't necessarily need him (or want him)
don't worry , this answer won't be accepted by many and the rebuttal will be , how can you diss a guy who once scored 40 plus in a playoff game. Its like Al Bundy reminiscing that he once scored 4 touchdowns in one game
This just doesn't make sense to me. If your argument is that you don't want/like Rondo because he coasts throughout the regular season and yet he is still easily a top 10 PG if not top 5, then wouldn't you want him even more? If he can screw his head on straight and play hard throughout the season would he then be the #1 PG since he isn't putting in full effort now?
Or is your argument is that because this team struggled and went 20-23 at the start of the season and the blame should be put on his shoulders alone despite other players being injured/not hitting their stride yet? Because in that case we should be clearing out a lot of other lockers first since Rondo was averaging a double double during that period. He was most certainly not the sole reason for the struggles and in fact probably prevented our record from being even worse than that.
I think the only valid argument that I've heard expressed as to why to get rid of Rondo (and maybe this is what you were trying to say and I misunderstood) is that Rondo doesn't fit with this current Celtics roster. And since he is our only truly valuable trade asset he should be moved to bring in pieces that would better fit this team's style and help us build for the future. And even that I disagree with, but its a matter of opinion over how this team best operates and what is best for the future, but definitely not a matter of discussing whether Rondo is a star or not (that point is proven by the eye test and the stats that back it up).
I don't think most people here who are favoring Rondo are doing so based purely on his past performance Al Bundy style, but are more focused on his talent that was still on display even during the 20-23 rough start and over the last few seasons.
Rondo has tremendous ability and if you think he is somehow not putting in enough effort that just means he could be even better. BballTim has posted the stats to back up the point in leading the league in assists and rebounds for PGs plus being towards the top for his position defensively.
Yes people harp on about his playoff performances, but thats where you earn your money and your reputation and Rondo has put together some spectacular performances. His ability to turn it up a notch in crunch time and in big games shouldn't be held against him, its an ASSET. Maybe its a signal he could put more effort in during the regular season but its is DEFINITELY a signal that come playoff team he can carry a team, a trait only a handful of guys have in the association.
Rondo is an NBA star, whether you want him on the Celtics or not is another question, but you can't deny his talent.
you just summed up some important points without focusing on them. Some of us are focusing on the aspect that its Rondo, a triple double machine and his past playoff performances speak volumes. It is out of question to state it was mainly his fault were stunk earlier this year. There HAS to be other factors
Than you have people like myself that have seen a Rondo transition from a blue collar, non "all star" , that actually helps/enhances "team play" to the earlier this season Rondo, who walks up the ball, doesn't pass the ball to everyone even if they are free, takes risks to steal balls more frequently, stuffs stats YET we are only a 500 team.
Yes if rondo works harder which means 2008-2010 rondo plus utilizes some new skills (jump shot improvement), he would be a top three pg (maybe one can argue #1). It doesn't matter if he can turn it up in the playoffs for someone like myself BC you have to get into the playoffs in the first place. 23-20 = half the season gone. Team is out of whack, where is the indication all of a sudden things will change?? Even though we have had excellent 2nd halfs before to propel us up in the standinds, at least in the beginning of the year, eveyrone was still working hard (and as a cohesive unit), even Rondo.
Again, people earlier this year were enormed by Rondo bc of his assist totals, we got a new leader to take over pp, kg, last years playoff performances still fresh on their minds, yet we are playing 500 ball. Its like a guy scoring 30 a night , but their team out of sync , not performing as a group and playing mediocre ball. If we had scrubs, than yeah, the 30 pt a night guy can't be really the blame. But our team this year was loaded with talent, Rondo got his stats yet we still lost. When he was out due to injuries, we won. So either Rondo or the new Rondo and this new group is not compatible or Rondo's ways is the problem. Its not realistic to say its everyone else fault.
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you just summed up some important points without focusing on them. Some of us are focusing on the aspect that its Rondo, a triple double machine and his past playoff performances speak volumes. It is out of question to state it was mainly his fault were stunk earlier this year. There HAS to be other factors
Than you have people like myself that have seen a Rondo transition from a blue collar, non "all star" , that actually helps/enhances "team play" to the earlier this season Rondo, who walks up the ball, doesn't pass the ball to everyone even if they are free, takes risks to steal balls more frequently, stuffs stats YET we are only a 500 team.
Yes if rondo works harder which means 2008-2010 rondo plus utilizes some new skills (jump shot improvement), he would be a top three pg (maybe one can argue #1). It doesn't matter if he can turn it up in the playoffs for someone like myself BC you have to get into the playoffs in the first place. 23-20 = half the season gone. Team is out of whack, where is the indication all of a sudden things will change?? Even though we have had excellent 2nd halfs before to propel us up in the standinds, at least in the beginning of the year, eveyrone was still working hard (and as a cohesive unit), even Rondo.
Again, people earlier this year were enormed by Rondo bc of his assist totals, we got a new leader to take over pp, kg, last years playoff performances still fresh on their minds, yet we are playing 500 ball. Its like a guy scoring 30 a night , but their team out of sync , not performing as a group and playing mediocre ball. If we had scrubs, than yeah, the 30 pt a night guy can't be really the blame. But our team this year was loaded with talent, Rondo got his stats yet we still lost. When he was out due to injuries, we won. So either Rondo or the new Rondo and this new group is not compatible or Rondo's ways is the problem. Its not realistic to say its everyone else fault.
So what you are saying is that it was solely Rondo's fault that we were playing so poorly until he was injured?
That despite similar streaks of poor play for the last few years, where Rondo played as you referred to it as "2008-2010" Rondo, that we would not have righted the ship had Rondo not gotten injured and continued on to finish the season not in the playoffs? That this team that is currently in line to make the playoffs without Rondo is better than the same exact team would be with Rondo? And it doesn't matter if Rondo can turn it up in the playoffs? Playoffs are all that matters.
And to suggest that this Celtics team would have missed the playoffs with Rondo but were, as recently as a week ago, within reach of a top 4 seed and possibly the Atlantic without him is laughable.
I'm not trying to be a Rondo apologist. I'm just saying that Rondo certainly wasn't the sole reason we struggled for the first half. I'm not saying he wasn't partially to blame. I saw how he was dominating the ball too much overall to let the offense flow and let people get into rhythm. But to put the entire blame on one player when it was clearly a team failure is unfair.
What you are saying is that either it was Rondo or everyone else, what I'm trying to say was that it was a combination of things. That Rondo played a factor as did everyone else on the team. I don't think its as simple as Rondo is gone, we've now hit our stride so obviously we are suddenly a better team thus Rondo was the problem. Its too simple. Its using him as a scapegoat.
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you just summed up some important points without focusing on them. Some of us are focusing on the aspect that its Rondo, a triple double machine and his past playoff performances speak volumes. It is out of question to state it was mainly his fault were stunk earlier this year. There HAS to be other factors
Than you have people like myself that have seen a Rondo transition from a blue collar, non "all star" , that actually helps/enhances "team play" to the earlier this season Rondo, who walks up the ball, doesn't pass the ball to everyone even if they are free, takes risks to steal balls more frequently, stuffs stats YET we are only a 500 team.
Yes if rondo works harder which means 2008-2010 rondo plus utilizes some new skills (jump shot improvement), he would be a top three pg (maybe one can argue #1). It doesn't matter if he can turn it up in the playoffs for someone like myself BC you have to get into the playoffs in the first place. 23-20 = half the season gone. Team is out of whack, where is the indication all of a sudden things will change?? Even though we have had excellent 2nd halfs before to propel us up in the standinds, at least in the beginning of the year, eveyrone was still working hard (and as a cohesive unit), even Rondo.
Again, people earlier this year were enormed by Rondo bc of his assist totals, we got a new leader to take over pp, kg, last years playoff performances still fresh on their minds, yet we are playing 500 ball. Its like a guy scoring 30 a night , but their team out of sync , not performing as a group and playing mediocre ball. If we had scrubs, than yeah, the 30 pt a night guy can't be really the blame. But our team this year was loaded with talent, Rondo got his stats yet we still lost. When he was out due to injuries, we won. So either Rondo or the new Rondo and this new group is not compatible or Rondo's ways is the problem. Its not realistic to say its everyone else fault.
So what you are saying is that it was solely Rondo's fault that we were playing so poorly until he was injured?
That despite similar streaks of poor play for the last few years, where Rondo played as you referred to it as "2008-2010" Rondo, that we would not have righted the ship had Rondo not gotten injured and continued on to finish the season not in the playoffs? That this team that is currently in line to make the playoffs without Rondo is better than the same exact team would be with Rondo? And it doesn't matter if Rondo can turn it up in the playoffs? Playoffs are all that matters.
And to suggest that this Celtics team would have missed the playoffs with Rondo but were, as recently as a week ago, within reach of a top 4 seed and possibly the Atlantic without him is laughable.
I'm not trying to be a Rondo apologist. I'm just saying that Rondo certainly wasn't the sole reason we struggled for the first half. I'm not saying he wasn't partially to blame. I saw how he was dominating the ball too much overall to let the offense flow and let people get into rhythm. But to put the entire blame on one player when it was clearly a team failure is unfair.
What you are saying is that either it was Rondo or everyone else, what I'm trying to say was that it was a combination of things. That Rondo played a factor as did everyone else on the team. I don't think its as simple as Rondo is gone, we've now hit our stride so obviously we are suddenly a better team thus Rondo was the problem. Its too simple. Its using him as a scapegoat.
If we lost still after the rondo's injury, and really badly also, than yes, the blame can't be solely/mainly on him. Than it comesdown to Doc or a few other players etc. Maybe you just got the wrong combination of players.
But like myself and others pointed out, the equation is really easy to see. Usually in science there are more than one variable, side effects etc. It takes a long time to iron things out.
In this situation, with Rondo we are playing 500. Without him starting in miami we go onto being one of the most dangerous teams in the league. We beat top teams suddenly. Nothing else changed except one player is longer playing and now the team playing cohesively. And yes unlike say if Lee was out of the lineup, Rondo can be blamed a little more readily bc he is holding onto the ball 70 percent of the time. And like i've said, you mess up the dynamics offensively, you can also damage the dynamics defensively and vice versa. Rondo holding onto the ball so long already screwed things up on top of walking up with the ball. Rondo taking risks defensively, like a domino effect at times, collapsed the defense. One player for the good or the bad can have this kind of effect
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So basically, the C's need to go out in free agency and see if they can find a point guard who can effectively run the team and play hard in the regular season. Rondo can sit on the bench for the regular season until the playoffs come around, then he becomes the starter because the playoffs are the only time he shows up to play anyway. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture? Every other "star" player in the NBA plays hard regular season AND playoffs, but somehow we have Rondo who absolutely coasts in the regular season. This is unacceptable behavior from a "star" player. Give me Sullinger. At least he plays hard every night.
Sure, as long as the point guard who "coasts" is still able to be top 5 in assists (leading the league 2 years running), top 5 in rebounds/game for point guards (again leading the league 2 straight years) and be 1st or 2nd team all-defense 4 years running. Point guards that can do that while coasting aren't as plentiful as you seem to think. Who do you think fits the bill?
if that point guard plays and his team goes 20-23, i don't necessarily need him (or want him)
don't worry , this answer won't be accepted by many and the rebuttal will be , how can you diss a guy who once scored 40 plus in a playoff game. Its like Al Bundy reminiscing that he once scored 4 touchdowns in one game
This just doesn't make sense to me. If your argument is that you don't want/like Rondo because he coasts throughout the regular season and yet he is still easily a top 10 PG if not top 5, then wouldn't you want him even more? If he can screw his head on straight and play hard throughout the season would he then be the #1 PG since he isn't putting in full effort now?
Or is your argument is that because this team struggled and went 20-23 at the start of the season and the blame should be put on his shoulders alone despite other players being injured/not hitting their stride yet? Because in that case we should be clearing out a lot of other lockers first since Rondo was averaging a double double during that period. He was most certainly not the sole reason for the struggles and in fact probably prevented our record from being even worse than that.
I think the only valid argument that I've heard expressed as to why to get rid of Rondo (and maybe this is what you were trying to say and I misunderstood) is that Rondo doesn't fit with this current Celtics roster. And since he is our only truly valuable trade asset he should be moved to bring in pieces that would better fit this team's style and help us build for the future. And even that I disagree with, but its a matter of opinion over how this team best operates and what is best for the future, but definitely not a matter of discussing whether Rondo is a star or not (that point is proven by the eye test and the stats that back it up).
I don't think most people here who are favoring Rondo are doing so based purely on his past performance Al Bundy style, but are more focused on his talent that was still on display even during the 20-23 rough start and over the last few seasons.
Rondo has tremendous ability and if you think he is somehow not putting in enough effort that just means he could be even better. BballTim has posted the stats to back up the point in leading the league in assists and rebounds for PGs plus being towards the top for his position defensively.
Yes people harp on about his playoff performances, but thats where you earn your money and your reputation and Rondo has put together some spectacular performances. His ability to turn it up a notch in crunch time and in big games shouldn't be held against him, its an ASSET. Maybe its a signal he could put more effort in during the regular season but its is DEFINITELY a signal that come playoff team he can carry a team, a trait only a handful of guys have in the association.
Rondo is an NBA star, whether you want him on the Celtics or not is another question, but you can't deny his talent.
you just summed up some important points without focusing on them. Some of us are focusing on the aspect that its Rondo, a triple double machine and his past playoff performances speak volumes. It is out of question to state it was mainly his fault were stunk earlier this year. There HAS to be other factors
Than you have people like myself that have seen a Rondo transition from a blue collar, non "all star" , that actually helps/enhances "team play" to the earlier this season Rondo, who walks up the ball, doesn't pass the ball to everyone even if they are free, takes risks to steal balls more frequently, stuffs stats YET we are only a 500 team.
Yes if rondo works harder which means 2008-2010 rondo plus utilizes some new skills (jump shot improvement), he would be a top three pg (maybe one can argue #1). It doesn't matter if he can turn it up in the playoffs for someone like myself BC you have to get into the playoffs in the first place. 23-20 = half the season gone. Team is out of whack, where is the indication all of a sudden things will change?? Even though we have had excellent 2nd halfs before to propel us up in the standinds, at least in the beginning of the year, eveyrone was still working hard (and as a cohesive unit), even Rondo.
Again, people earlier this year were enormed by Rondo bc of his assist totals, we got a new leader to take over pp, kg, last years playoff performances still fresh on their minds, yet we are playing 500 ball. Its like a guy scoring 30 a night , but their team out of sync , not performing as a group and playing mediocre ball. If we had scrubs, than yeah, the 30 pt a night guy can't be really the blame. But our team this year was loaded with talent, Rondo got his stats yet we still lost. When he was out due to injuries, we won. So either Rondo or the new Rondo and this new group is not compatible or Rondo's ways is the problem. Its not realistic to say its everyone else fault.
If you focus solely on Rondo's presence or absence and don't consider anything else that was happening with the team it's easy to come to the conclusion that Rondo was the problem. But other things were going on as well:
Green, rusty from a year off and still recovering from his injury was playing poorly the first few months of the season. His numbers started to improve in January, while Rondo was still playing.
PP and Terry were playing poorly in Dec/Jan due to injury. In November they combined for 31 ppg on 61% TS%, in Jan they combined for 23 ppg on 50% TS%.
The bigs aside from KG were playing terrible defense earlier this year. A month or so into the season the team's defense was over *18 ppp* worse when KG was out of the game.
I could go on, but you get the point. Since you're claiming that our record was mainly Rondo's fault (in spite of the fact that he wasn't playing poorly) I'm curious about your position on the issues that I listed. Are you claiming that they didn't happen, that they didn't have any affect on how well the team played, or that they were Rondo's fault?
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The bigs outside of KG and Randolph are still playing poorly. Has Wilcox ever clogged the middle or taken a charge? I am starting to understand why Wilcox played on so many poor teams b4 joining the Cs.
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Or Bass for that matter. At least Bass gives some effort on one to one defense; Wilcox couldn't care less about it.
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I want the all-star level player that makes the rest of the team better and is a big game player.
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Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.
I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.
Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.
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I think Rondo is indispensable as long as he meets the team at least halfway and stops the grandstanding.
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I'm not trying to be a Rondo apologist. I'm just saying that Rondo certainly wasn't the sole reason we struggled for the first half. I'm not saying he wasn't partially to blame. I saw how he was dominating the ball too much overall to let the offense flow and let people get into rhythm. But to put the entire blame on one player when it was clearly a team failure is unfair.
If you want to look at the times over the last few years when Rondo's really dominated the ball start with 10-11 before his injuries kicked in, back in Nov/Dec when he set the record for assists to start a season and was averaging 13+ assists a game. We were playing our best offense of the season at the time.
Or you could look at the tail end of 11-12 during his assist streak, when he was averaging 13+ assists again. We were playing our best offense of the season at the time. Or maybe we should check out the playoffs last year when he was scoring or assisting more points than anyone in the league aside from LeBron and we almost made it to the finals. Or we could look at the beginning of the year when he was finishing up his assist streak and we were a top 10 offense and 3rd or 4th in the league in TS%.
I don't think it's necessarily true that Rondo dominating the ball prevents the team from getting into an offensive flow or from players getting into a god rhythm.
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Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.
I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.
Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.
If you've addressed the questions I posed to you multiple times I'd appreciate it if you pointed me to the post. If not I'd still be interested in your thoughts on those questions.
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Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.
I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.
Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse and apologies if it seems like I'm not getting your points, I think I do we just happen to disagree entirely which is fine, but if Sully and Rondo went down at basically the same time and we have started to play better since, surely thats evidence that the entire team picked up their game as a result of the injuries and its not just addition by subtraction, right?
What I mean to say is that I thought Sully played excellently all year long. Of course there is room for improvement, but he was outstanding and by no means the reason for our struggles, but rather one of the few bright spots.
If Rondo really was the problem, then fine its plausible that the Celtics fared better once he went down. But Sully was purely a positive. So when he went down obviously the entire team had to step up in great measures to make up for his loss. Doesn't that show that the Celtics weren't playing up to their potential even if Rondo was the problem?
This isn't one of those Sully went down at the same time so obviously he was the problem sarcastic arguments.
I just think it goes to show how far the Celtics were playing below their ability that without Rondo AND Sully they went on to get hot and win a lot of games. If it was just Rondo going down then fine maybe there is some evidence that he was the major problem, but to be able to overcome the loss of Sully as well clearly several guys' quality of play improved. And I don't think it all has to do with changing our style without Rondo, but more that they started to hit their stride and find their groove (plus Avery coming back).
So if the team as a whole improved that much from the start of the season to overcome such issues, how can it be entirely Rondo's fault that they struggled? If just a few of the guys who have started to play better (Green, Terry, Lee) had put forth that kind of play at the start of the season, wouldn't we have had a better record and not even be talking about this?
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Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.
I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.
Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse and apologies if it seems like I'm not getting your points, I think I do we just happen to disagree entirely which is fine, but if Sully and Rondo went down at basically the same time and we have started to play better since, surely thats evidence that the entire team picked up their game as a result of the injuries and its not just addition by subtraction, right?
What I mean to say is that I thought Sully played excellently all year long. Of course there is room for improvement, but he was outstanding and by no means the reason for our struggles, but rather one of the few bright spots.
If Rondo really was the problem, then fine its plausible that the Celtics fared better once he went down. But Sully was purely a positive. So when he went down obviously the entire team had to step up in great measures to make up for his loss. Doesn't that show that the Celtics weren't playing up to their potential even if Rondo was the problem?
This isn't one of those Sully went down at the same time so obviously he was the problem sarcastic arguments.
I just think it goes to show how far the Celtics were playing below their ability that without Rondo AND Sully they went on to get hot and win a lot of games. If it was just Rondo going down then fine maybe there is some evidence that he was the major problem, but to be able to overcome the loss of Sully as well clearly several guys' quality of play improved. And I don't think it all has to do with changing our style without Rondo, but more that they started to hit their stride and find their groove (plus Avery coming back).
So if the team as a whole improved that much from the start of the season to overcome such issues, how can it be entirely Rondo's fault that they struggled? If just a few of the guys who have started to play better (Green, Terry, Lee) had put forth that kind of play at the start of the season, wouldn't we have had a better record and not even be talking about this?
I'd say that there is one way that Rondo and Sully being injured helped the team, and that's freeing up minutes. Normally Rondo plays 36+ minutes a game at guard and PP plays about 36 a game at forward. That left Bradley/Lee/Terry/Barbosa to fight over the remaining 60 guard minutes (12 at pg and 48 at sg) and Sully/Green/Bass to fight over the remaining forward minutes (with a few minutes at center thrown in). That meant, aside from the fact that most of those guys were new to the team, they all had inconsistent minutes and rarely enough playing time to get into a good rhythm.
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I'm not trying to be a Rondo apologist. I'm just saying that Rondo certainly wasn't the sole reason we struggled for the first half. I'm not saying he wasn't partially to blame. I saw how he was dominating the ball too much overall to let the offense flow and let people get into rhythm. But to put the entire blame on one player when it was clearly a team failure is unfair.
If you want to look at the times over the last few years when Rondo's really dominated the ball start with 10-11 before his injuries kicked in, back in Nov/Dec when he set the record for assists to start a season and was averaging 13+ assists a game. We were playing our best offense of the season at the time.
Or you could look at the tail end of 11-12 during his assist streak, when he was averaging 13+ assists again. We were playing our best offense of the season at the time. Or maybe we should check out the playoffs last year when he was scoring or assisting more points than anyone in the league aside from LeBron and we almost made it to the finals. Or we could look at the beginning of the year when he was finishing up his assist streak and we were a top 10 offense and 3rd or 4th in the league in TS%.
I don't think it's necessarily true that Rondo dominating the ball prevents the team from getting into an offensive flow or from players getting into a god rhythm.
I wasn't trying to say that Rondo dominating the ball normally prevents the flow or rhythm, but given the struggles of a number of guys at the start of the season it looked like Rondo tightened up a bit and tried to do too much (I assume in an effort to put the struggling guys in better positions to get their shots and heat up).
It seemed as if he was looking for the perfect play every time and when it wasn't there he preferred to leave it with KG or PP to create their own shot at the end of the clock.
I think he would have been better suited getting the ball out of his hands earlier and letting guys like Terry, Lee and Green get the ball earlier and look for their own shots to get comfortable (all three wouldn't have been as used to playing with such an effective assist man who probably holds the ball a little longer than your average nba PG).
Normally I don't have a problem at all with the way Rondo plays, but I think he started to try to do too much on his own because the team was struggling when he was probably better off letting those guys work through their problems early and get into rhythm (which seems to be what helped some of them break out of their funk once he went down, but hindsight is 20/20).
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Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.
I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.
Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse and apologies if it seems like I'm not getting your points, I think I do we just happen to disagree entirely which is fine, but if Sully and Rondo went down at basically the same time and we have started to play better since, surely thats evidence that the entire team picked up their game as a result of the injuries and its not just addition by subtraction, right?
What I mean to say is that I thought Sully played excellently all year long. Of course there is room for improvement, but he was outstanding and by no means the reason for our struggles, but rather one of the few bright spots.
If Rondo really was the problem, then fine its plausible that the Celtics fared better once he went down. But Sully was purely a positive. So when he went down obviously the entire team had to step up in great measures to make up for his loss. Doesn't that show that the Celtics weren't playing up to their potential even if Rondo was the problem?
This isn't one of those Sully went down at the same time so obviously he was the problem sarcastic arguments.
I just think it goes to show how far the Celtics were playing below their ability that without Rondo AND Sully they went on to get hot and win a lot of games. If it was just Rondo going down then fine maybe there is some evidence that he was the major problem, but to be able to overcome the loss of Sully as well clearly several guys' quality of play improved. And I don't think it all has to do with changing our style without Rondo, but more that they started to hit their stride and find their groove (plus Avery coming back).
So if the team as a whole improved that much from the start of the season to overcome such issues, how can it be entirely Rondo's fault that they struggled? If just a few of the guys who have started to play better (Green, Terry, Lee) had put forth that kind of play at the start of the season, wouldn't we have had a better record and not even be talking about this?
The effort was there post Rondo bc of team synergy. Everyone got a touch of the ball and the free shot was made by the open person. People like Terry, Lee got to utilize their passing skills,push the ball on fast break that was near non existant before Rondo. If defenses concentrate on denying these players jumpers on the offensive set , they are not nearly the same players if allowed to do other things.
The games Rondo missed this year, or was not on the floor when sully was on the floor (bc sully came in from the bench), we really got to see the multi talents this kid had. On top of the key, he is a good passer and if he gets the ball in the post once in a while, can score the ball. So he gets to contribute on offense and now has the pump to do well on defense also. I don't know if you ever played basketball, but if you have to do the dirty work, and rarely get to even touch the ball, you don't play with the same excitement. You might just give up trying actually.
So for me, Sully was not part of the problem. He rarely had the ball in his hands (especially when he was on with Rondo), didn't make many mistakes and did the dirty work. Nobody can complain about a guy like that. But when he did have the ball he made an impact.
So my thinking when this thread came up is, from what i witnessed earlier this year, with Rondo back is, sure he will give you the stats but at what cost again?? Will it decrease the productivity and jump of the majority?
With Sully i just see an addition/enhancement to the team play
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Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.
I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.
Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.
We were 21-23 with Sullinger and 17-11 without him. Sully's absence made the Celtics better.
We don't need a PF who made our team play less than .500 ball.
Ever since Sullinger went out we have played much better as a team.
Now that Sullinger is out, Green has blossomed into the player we all hoped we could be. Sullinger clearly was holding him back.
Surely you cannot find a flaw in this logic.
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Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.
I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.
Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.
We were 21-23 with Sullinger and 17-11 without him. Sully's absence made the Celtics better.
We don't need a PF who made our team play less than .500 ball.
Ever since Sullinger went out we have played much better as a team.
Now that Sullinger is out, Green has blossomed into the player we all hoped we could be. Sullinger clearly was holding him back.
Surely you cannot find a flaw in this logic.
Why don't you read the post prior to explain the importance of sully. Nice try using stats to backup your argument or mock.
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Rondo.
But in general I think it's a nice feeling to be a playoff without them. Next year we have an older PP and KG, but add an all-sar PG and a healthy good 2nd year player.
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Ok i think i will stop, bc i feel like a cd skipping trying to make my point. Its ok by me if its not accepted, this is a forum after all.
I pick sully now but this is based on this years play and how he gets along better with everyone else on the floor. Plus we need inside presence.
Outside of this year, i'd pick Rondo for sure. And as a first choice, i do want Rondo back next year, playing like his old self.
We were 21-23 with Sullinger and 17-11 without him. Sully's absence made the Celtics better.
We don't need a PF who made our team play less than .500 ball.
Ever since Sullinger went out we have played much better as a team.
Now that Sullinger is out, Green has blossomed into the player we all hoped we could be. Sullinger clearly was holding him back.
Surely you cannot find a flaw in this logic.
Why don't you read the post prior to explain the importance of sully. Nice try using stats to backup your argument or mock.
I thought that the record with and without the player in question is the most important thing we need to look at.
You disagree?
Because you wrote every single one of the comments below:
"i think Rondo's contribution is overstated by many in this forum. without him we were way over 500."
"The way it was it seemed was, i got my assist record, i'm considered a top pg, i'm an all star and its ok if we got a mediocre record so far"
"With rondo we were 23-20, barely in the playoffs, and without him suddenly like 15-6?"
"Bottom line is we were mere avg with him being the star and without him the team was excellent. so you guys figure it out"
"But its just too much coincidence that the day Rondo doesn't play we beat Miami and go on a long winning run."
"I think i would take 16-7 anyday of the year vs 23-20."
"Doesn't actually provide logic in how the new team is better with Rondo and what proof there is this is true. We went 23-20 and was hanging on for our playoff lives"
"With Rondo earlier this year we stunk and without him starting with the Miami game until Barb went down, we were lethal. Everyone started to play better as a team."
"this answer [about the 20-23 record] won't be accepted by many and the rebuttal will be, how can you diss a guy who once scored 40 plus in a playoff game. Its like Al Bundy reminiscing that he once scored 4 touchdowns in one game"
"With rondo and these guys in the lineup we are 50-50 this year. Without rondo and these guys we are like 16-7."
"Rondo, who walks up the ball, doesn't pass the ball to everyone even if they are free, takes risks to steal balls more frequently, stuffs stats YET we are only a 500 team"
"23-20 = half the season gone."
"Again, people earlier this year were enormed by Rondo bc of his assist totals, we got a new leader to take over pp, kg, last years playoff performances still fresh on their minds, yet we are playing 500 ball."
"But our team this year was loaded with talent, Rondo got his stats yet we still lost. When he was out due to injuries, we won."
"But like myself and others pointed out, the equation is really easy to see...In this situation, with Rondo we are playing 500. Without him starting in miami we go onto being one of the most dangerous teams in the league."
I'm struggling to find one other fact - not opinion, fact - in this entire thread that you've put forth to support your argument.
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And just in case my point is not clear, here it is, as plainly as I can make it:
In arguing the case for Sullinger you are focusing on the one fact that is totally uninformative in the "Rondo or Sullinger" decision (this was the original question in the thread). It's totally uninformative because they were in and out of the lineup for almost the exact same set of games.
20-23 before Rondo got hurt, 17-11 after.
20-23 before Sullinger got hurt, 17-11 after.
How does talking about the record - over and over - tell us anything about who would help the team more?
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So my thinking when this thread came up is, from what i witnessed earlier this year, with Rondo back is, sure he will give you the stats but at what cost again??
Hopefully it will come at the same cost it generally does, making us title contenders. It's tough to deal with but I'm willing to make the sacrifice.
In the 11-12 season we struggled early in the season, mainly because PP and KG were out of shape. Rondo had an injury and the team went on a tear. That didn't stop the team from playing great ball late in the season with Rondo controlling the offense (18-9 finish to the season) and it didn't stop Rondo from leading the team on a deep playoff run.
The same type of arguments that are made now were made then, only not quite as outlandish because they didn't have time to get carried away during the brief time Rondo was out. There were valid reasons aside from Rondo for the turnaround, just like this year (in spite of your not wanting to comment on them). There's no reason to believe that Rondo returning would turn out differently than last year when we were a healthy body or two away from the finals.
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Sully
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And just in case my point is not clear, here it is, as plainly as I can make it:
In arguing the case for Sullinger you are focusing on the one fact that is totally uninformative in the "Rondo or Sullinger" decision (this was the original question in the thread). It's totally uninformative because they were in and out of the lineup for almost the exact same set of games.
20-23 before Rondo got hurt, 17-11 after.
20-23 before Sullinger got hurt, 17-11 after.
How does talking about the record - over and over - tell us anything about who would help the team more?
I think you like to do selective reading instead of reading everything.
I'm not choosing 1 to 1. The point i was ultimately making was without Rondo and a healthy team = we are better team this year . And with Sully we are a better team Rondo or not. He doesn't hurt the dynamics , he enhances it (plus our inside presence is weak). If the title read would you rather have back now Rondo or Green, Rondo or KG, Rondo or Bradley. I'd not pick Rondo in these examples either
Hope you get it
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And just in case my point is not clear, here it is, as plainly as I can make it:
In arguing the case for Sullinger you are focusing on the one fact that is totally uninformative in the "Rondo or Sullinger" decision (this was the original question in the thread). It's totally uninformative because they were in and out of the lineup for almost the exact same set of games.
20-23 before Rondo got hurt, 17-11 after.
20-23 before Sullinger got hurt, 17-11 after.
How does talking about the record - over and over - tell us anything about who would help the team more?
Does sullinger have the ball 70 percent of the time? How many min on avg does he play? How many min did Rondo play?
I think you like to do selective reading instead of reading everything.
I'm not choosing 1 to 1. The point is without Rondo and a healthy team we are better team this year . And with Sully we are a better team. He doesn't hurt the dynamics , he enhances it. If the title read would you rather have Rondo or Green, Rondo or KG, Rondo or Bradley. I'd not not Rondo in these examples
Hope you get it
You've stated multiple times that without Rondo we're better, and with Sully, we're better, despite the fact that our records without both of them are EXACTLY the same.
Seriously, I'd rather you just come out and say you don't like Rondo/like Sully a lot because your crap is getting really old.
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And just in case my point is not clear, here it is, as plainly as I can make it:
In arguing the case for Sullinger you are focusing on the one fact that is totally uninformative in the "Rondo or Sullinger" decision (this was the original question in the thread). It's totally uninformative because they were in and out of the lineup for almost the exact same set of games.
20-23 before Rondo got hurt, 17-11 after.
20-23 before Sullinger got hurt, 17-11 after.
How does talking about the record - over and over - tell us anything about who would help the team more?
Does sullinger have the ball 70 percent of the time? How many min on avg does he play? How many min did Rondo play?
I think you like to do selective reading instead of reading everything.
I'm not choosing 1 to 1. The point is without Rondo and a healthy team we are better team this year . And with Sully we are a better team. He doesn't hurt the dynamics , he enhances it. If the title read would you rather have Rondo or Green, Rondo or KG, Rondo or Bradley. I'd not not Rondo in these examples
Hope you get it
You've stated multiple times that without Rondo we're better, and with Sully, we're better, despite the fact that our records without both of them are EXACTLY the same.
Seriously, I'd rather you just come out and say you don't like Rondo/like Sully a lot because your crap is getting really old.
sorry i hurt your feelings. But if you read properly you would know that i do want Rondo back. The 2008-2010 blue collar version. And yes i don't want the new Rondo back. Its nothing new
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And just in case my point is not clear, here it is, as plainly as I can make it:
In arguing the case for Sullinger you are focusing on the one fact that is totally uninformative in the "Rondo or Sullinger" decision (this was the original question in the thread). It's totally uninformative because they were in and out of the lineup for almost the exact same set of games.
20-23 before Rondo got hurt, 17-11 after.
20-23 before Sullinger got hurt, 17-11 after.
How does talking about the record - over and over - tell us anything about who would help the team more?
Does sullinger have the ball 70 percent of the time? How many min on avg does he play? How many min did Rondo play?
I think you like to do selective reading instead of reading everything.
I'm not choosing 1 to 1. Its more like without Rondo we are a better team this year . And with Sully we are a better team. He doesn't hurt the dynamics , he enhances it. You can understand it whatever way you want
If you want to present some facts to support your position, instead of just posing questions, go ahead. I'm listening.
I have read every post in this thread. In fact, I just went back and read everything again, to assemble the list of 15 separate quotes in which you talked about the record with/without Rondo as if it would settle the Sullinger vs. Rondo question.
There are plenty of facts in my posts, so if you're interested you can go back and review them. You are more than welcome to respond to those - I would argue that you're the one that's been "selective," since you haven't responded to any of them.
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And just in case my point is not clear, here it is, as plainly as I can make it:
In arguing the case for Sullinger you are focusing on the one fact that is totally uninformative in the "Rondo or Sullinger" decision (this was the original question in the thread). It's totally uninformative because they were in and out of the lineup for almost the exact same set of games.
20-23 before Rondo got hurt, 17-11 after.
20-23 before Sullinger got hurt, 17-11 after.
How does talking about the record - over and over - tell us anything about who would help the team more?
Does sullinger have the ball 70 percent of the time? How many min on avg does he play? How many min did Rondo play?
I think you like to do selective reading instead of reading everything.
I'm not choosing 1 to 1. The point is without Rondo and a healthy team we are better team this year . And with Sully we are a better team. He doesn't hurt the dynamics , he enhances it. If the title read would you rather have Rondo or Green, Rondo or KG, Rondo or Bradley. I'd not not Rondo in these examples
Hope you get it
You've stated multiple times that without Rondo we're better, and with Sully, we're better, despite the fact that our records without both of them are EXACTLY the same.
Seriously, I'd rather you just come out and say you don't like Rondo/like Sully a lot because your crap is getting really old.
sorry i hurt your feelings. But if you read properly you would know that i do want Rondo back. The 2008-2010 blue collar version. And yes i don't want the new Rondo back. Its nothing new
If the "blue collar non-star" version of Rondo comes back he'd better bring a younger version of PP/KG/RA back with him or we're done as contenders. Personally I'd rather see the team have a shot at a title than root for a plucky, hustling non-contender because I don't like the way our star plays.
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And just in case my point is not clear, here it is, as plainly as I can make it:
In arguing the case for Sullinger you are focusing on the one fact that is totally uninformative in the "Rondo or Sullinger" decision (this was the original question in the thread). It's totally uninformative because they were in and out of the lineup for almost the exact same set of games.
20-23 before Rondo got hurt, 17-11 after.
20-23 before Sullinger got hurt, 17-11 after.
How does talking about the record - over and over - tell us anything about who would help the team more?
Does sullinger have the ball 70 percent of the time? How many min on avg does he play? How many min did Rondo play?
I think you like to do selective reading instead of reading everything.
I'm not choosing 1 to 1. Its more like without Rondo we are a better team this year . And with Sully we are a better team. He doesn't hurt the dynamics , he enhances it. You can understand it whatever way you want
If you want to present some facts to support your position, instead of just posing questions, go ahead. I'm listening.
I have read every post in this thread. In fact, I just went back and read everything again, to assemble the list of 15 separate quotes in which you talked about the record with/without Rondo as if it would settle the Sullinger vs. Rondo question.
There are plenty of facts in my posts, so if you're interested you can go back and review them. You are more than welcome to respond to those - I would argue that you're the one that's been "selective," since you haven't responded to any of them.
The points i'm making is not rocket science. I'll tell you again one more time so you get it. There is no need to go back and read everything. In essence
without rondo but healthy team this year = we are a playoff calibre team. Team synergy and play is at a high level. We are easily going to make the playoffs
with rondo and a healthy team = Rondo has the ball 70 percent of the time. No team synergy on the offensive end. No synergy in the defensive end. Hanging on for dear life to make it into the playoffs.
-
And just in case my point is not clear, here it is, as plainly as I can make it:
In arguing the case for Sullinger you are focusing on the one fact that is totally uninformative in the "Rondo or Sullinger" decision (this was the original question in the thread). It's totally uninformative because they were in and out of the lineup for almost the exact same set of games.
20-23 before Rondo got hurt, 17-11 after.
20-23 before Sullinger got hurt, 17-11 after.
How does talking about the record - over and over - tell us anything about who would help the team more?
Does sullinger have the ball 70 percent of the time? How many min on avg does he play? How many min did Rondo play?
I think you like to do selective reading instead of reading everything.
I'm not choosing 1 to 1. Its more like without Rondo we are a better team this year . And with Sully we are a better team. He doesn't hurt the dynamics , he enhances it. You can understand it whatever way you want
If you want to present some facts to support your position, instead of just posing questions, go ahead. I'm listening.
I have read every post in this thread. In fact, I just went back and read everything again, to assemble the list of 15 separate quotes in which you talked about the record with/without Rondo as if it would settle the Sullinger vs. Rondo question.
There are plenty of facts in my posts, so if you're interested you can go back and review them. You are more than welcome to respond to those - I would argue that you're the one that's been "selective," since you haven't responded to any of them.
The points i'm making is not rocket science. I'll tell you again one more time so you get it. There is no need to go back and read everything. In essence
without rondo but healthy team this year = we are a playoff calibre team. Team synergy and play is at a high level. We are easily going to make the playoffs
with rondo and a healthy team = Rondo has the ball 70 percent of the time. No team synergy on the offensive end. No synergy in the defensive end. Hanging on for dear life to make it into the playoffs.
So are you claiming that the defensive issues were due to Rondo having the ball too much on offense? Interesting. Do you have any thoughts on why the defensive turnaround came while Rondo was still playing and controlling the ball?
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And just in case my point is not clear, here it is, as plainly as I can make it:
In arguing the case for Sullinger you are focusing on the one fact that is totally uninformative in the "Rondo or Sullinger" decision (this was the original question in the thread). It's totally uninformative because they were in and out of the lineup for almost the exact same set of games.
20-23 before Rondo got hurt, 17-11 after.
20-23 before Sullinger got hurt, 17-11 after.
How does talking about the record - over and over - tell us anything about who would help the team more?
Does sullinger have the ball 70 percent of the time? How many min on avg does he play? How many min did Rondo play?
I think you like to do selective reading instead of reading everything.
I'm not choosing 1 to 1. Its more like without Rondo we are a better team this year . And with Sully we are a better team. He doesn't hurt the dynamics , he enhances it. You can understand it whatever way you want
If you want to present some facts to support your position, instead of just posing questions, go ahead. I'm listening.
I have read every post in this thread. In fact, I just went back and read everything again, to assemble the list of 15 separate quotes in which you talked about the record with/without Rondo as if it would settle the Sullinger vs. Rondo question.
There are plenty of facts in my posts, so if you're interested you can go back and review them. You are more than welcome to respond to those - I would argue that you're the one that's been "selective," since you haven't responded to any of them.
The points i'm making is not rocket science. I'll tell you again one more time so you get it. There is no need to go back and read everything. In essence
without rondo but healthy team this year = we are a playoff calibre team. Team synergy and play is at a high level. We are easily going to make the playoffs
with rondo and a healthy team = Rondo has the ball 70 percent of the time. No team synergy on the offensive end. No synergy in the defensive end. Hanging on for dear life to make it into the playoffs.
Everything you just wrote is 100% your opinion, unsupported by any facts. What does "no synergy on the defensive end" mean, exactly? What does it mean for "synergy" and "team play" to be at a "high level"?
And, you STILL haven't responded to any of the points I raised.
If you don't want to read what I wrote previously, and respond to it, and if you want to just say that your opinion - unsupported by anything else - is that Sullinger would help the team more than Rondo, then that's your prerogative. You should stop there though, rather than obsess about our team's record this year with and without Rondo, and claim that it's somehow useful information in determining the relative value of Rondo and Sullinger.
Here's an example of facts, in case what I mean is not clear. In game 2 of the Miami series last year, Rondo had 44/10/8. This took place less than one year ago (i.e., this was not "2008-2010 Rondo"). It is the last playoff series in which Rondo played - which I think is the best predictor of his likely playoff performance this year.
No one has ever exceed those numbers in a single playoff game. Ever. Those numbers have been exceeded only six times in league history during the regular season.
This was ranked by ESPN's writers as one of the top 25 playoff performances in NBA history:
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/8068148/nba-playoffs-top-25-performances-ever
Another article called it "one of the greatest performances in playoff history."
http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7991469/2012-nba-playoffs-rajon-rondo-performance-deserved-boston-celtics-win
Players and coaches on both sides had this to say:
"[Rondo] was absolutely phenomenal," Rivers said. "He put the whole team on his shoulders. It's tough to have him play that way and not win the game, honestly, because he did basically everything right."
"I have no idea, I'll be honest," Spoelstra said when asked how one defends Rondo. "We've tried almost everything with him."
"Rondo was absolutely amazing," James said. Echoed Wade, "He played an unbelievable game."
The Celtics did lose the game, as you will no doubt note. But this was an overtime loss to the eventual champions, on the road. And the fact that it was a loss didn't seem to change everyone's opinion of how Rondo played.
And, this was not an isolated incident. For the playoffs in 2012 Rondo averaged 17/12/7, with 2.4 steals per game. He posted a 22 PER.
For the playoffs overall he was first in assists, first in steals. He was 9th in offensive rebounds and 7th in defensive rebounds. He was 4th in win shares behind Lebron, Durant and Wade.
Ok. Those are some facts behind my view that Rondo would help us more than Sullinger.
Your turn.
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And just in case my point is not clear, here it is, as plainly as I can make it:
In arguing the case for Sullinger you are focusing on the one fact that is totally uninformative in the "Rondo or Sullinger" decision (this was the original question in the thread). It's totally uninformative because they were in and out of the lineup for almost the exact same set of games.
20-23 before Rondo got hurt, 17-11 after.
20-23 before Sullinger got hurt, 17-11 after.
How does talking about the record - over and over - tell us anything about who would help the team more?
Does sullinger have the ball 70 percent of the time? How many min on avg does he play? How many min did Rondo play?
I think you like to do selective reading instead of reading everything.
I'm not choosing 1 to 1. Its more like without Rondo we are a better team this year . And with Sully we are a better team. He doesn't hurt the dynamics , he enhances it. You can understand it whatever way you want
If you want to present some facts to support your position, instead of just posing questions, go ahead. I'm listening.
I have read every post in this thread. In fact, I just went back and read everything again, to assemble the list of 15 separate quotes in which you talked about the record with/without Rondo as if it would settle the Sullinger vs. Rondo question.
There are plenty of facts in my posts, so if you're interested you can go back and review them. You are more than welcome to respond to those - I would argue that you're the one that's been "selective," since you haven't responded to any of them.
The points i'm making is not rocket science. I'll tell you again one more time so you get it. There is no need to go back and read everything. In essence
without rondo but healthy team this year = we are a playoff calibre team. Team synergy and play is at a high level. We are easily going to make the playoffs
with rondo and a healthy team = Rondo has the ball 70 percent of the time. No team synergy on the offensive end. No synergy in the defensive end. Hanging on for dear life to make it into the playoffs.
Everything you just wrote is 100% your opinion, unsupported by any facts. What does "no synergy on the defensive end" mean, exactly? What does it mean for "synergy" and "team play" to be at a "high level"?
And, you STILL haven't responded to any of the points I raised.
If you don't want to read what I wrote previously, and respond to it, and if you want to just say that your opinion - unsupported by anything else - is that Sullinger would help the team more than Rondo, then that's your prerogative. You should stop there though, rather than obsess about our team's record this year with and without Rondo, and claim that it's somehow useful information in determining the relative value of Rondo and Sullinger.
Here's an example of facts, in case what I mean is not clear. In game 2 of the Miami series last year, Rondo had 44/10/8. This took place less than one year ago (i.e., this was not "2008-2010 Rondo"). It is the last playoff series in which Rondo played - which I think is the best predictor of his likely playoff performance this year.
No one has ever exceed those numbers in a single playoff game. Ever. Those numbers have been exceeded only six times in league history during the regular season.
This was ranked by ESPN's writers as one of the top 25 playoff performances in NBA history:
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/8068148/nba-playoffs-top-25-performances-ever
Another article called it "one of the greatest performances in playoff history."
http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7991469/2012-nba-playoffs-rajon-rondo-performance-deserved-boston-celtics-win
This is what I wonder whether people really understand about Rondo. It's true he's not a great scorer, but you can talk about multiple aspects of his game (like defense, rebounding and passing) in historic terms. Very few players in nba history can match his accomplishments or stats in those areas, especially by the time they were his age.
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I gave you guys your TPs, but really let it go. He clearly has no idea what he's talking about. You're wasting your time. Better off trying to educate a brick wall about how to change the oil in a car.
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epic battle of philosophies
;D
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all i know is
I WANT MOAR JEFF GREEN!!
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Rondo, and it's not even close.
I know i've clamored to trade Rondo and all that, but let's face it, Rondo is one of the top PG's in the league. meanwhile, Sully is a likable rookie who's had his moments. Rondo can singlehandedly defeat (or almost defeat) the Heat on one of his best nights. Can't say the same for Sully.
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Change my mind I want Rondo. Forgive me for thinking Sullinger's contributions would be even near Rondo's contributions.
Our front court doesn't even suck that much. Bass...Green...they've both been good.
Rondo pleeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaassssseeeeee forgive me! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Rondo....doc wouldn't play sully anyway.
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We need both so badly
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I've always stated Rondo...would love Sully too,but he's a Rookie and depending on how tight they call the game he'd be fouled out by the 2nd qtr.
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This would've been such a talented team with both of these guys in the lineup right now.
Best team in the East outside of Miami by a clear margin.