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Celtics Basketball => Celtics History => Topic started by: stb on March 02, 2013, 10:46:48 AM

Title: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: stb on March 02, 2013, 10:46:48 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svHk8Zntc5g
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Eja117 on March 02, 2013, 10:57:06 AM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 02, 2013, 11:18:16 AM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

Michael was truly one of the greatest of all time...near the top of the list.

It would've been interesting to see him play in the primes of those three you mentioned.

I would've loved to have seen THIS guy reach his prime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni7t4swtdYw

Reggie Lewis would've certainly been a thorn in Michael's side.

Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Jon on March 02, 2013, 11:32:22 AM
That's always been my argument.  You list the top 10 players of all time, and Jordan is the only who was in his prime during the '90s.  Magic and Larry were on their way out and the likes of Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (if you wanted to include them) were too young. 

I suppose you could bring Hakeem into the discussion, but he never actually faced Jordan in a playoff game...ever. 

I mean how many titles would Larry Bird have won if there was no Magic to play against?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell played in a different era? 

So I think there's really a good argument to be made about Jordan being overrated.  He's still a top 10 player and potentially the greatest ever, but if he played 10 years earlier or 10 years later, I'm not sure he'd stand out in people's minds as much as he does now. 

Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: ManUp on March 02, 2013, 11:40:13 AM
Jordan was young and his supporting cast wasn't going to beat those battle tested Celtics teams.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: hwangjini_1 on March 02, 2013, 11:47:09 AM
for reggie lewis we will never know. but if you compare his first 5 years to pierce they are not terribly different in terms of points, rebounds, etc.

pierce was clearly better in those stats, but not dramatically.

so....based solely upon that weak basis, it looks as if lewis would have had a pretty darned good career for himself.

rip 35
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: nostar on March 02, 2013, 11:52:44 AM
That's always been my argument.  You list the top 10 players of all time, and Jordan is the only who was in his prime during the '90s.  Magic and Larry were on their way out and the likes of Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (if you wanted to include them) were too young. 

I suppose you could bring Hakeem into the discussion, but he never actually faced Jordan in a playoff game...ever. 

I mean how many titles would Larry Bird have won if there was no Magic to play against?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell played in a different era? 

So I think there's really a good argument to be made about Jordan being overrated.  He's still a top 10 player and potentially the greatest ever, but if he played 10 years earlier or 10 years later, I'm not sure he'd stand out in people's minds as much as he does now.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

Jordan was just better than them. He willed his teams to win through sickness and injury sometimes with little to no help.

The man took 2 years off and then came back to lead his team to the best single season record in NBA history and a title.

Overrated is never a word that should be used to describe Michael Jordan as a player. Ever.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 02, 2013, 11:55:11 AM
for reggie lewis we will never know. but if you compare his first 5 years to pierce they are not terribly different in terms of points, rebounds, etc.

pierce was clearly better in those stats, but not dramatically.

so....based solely upon that weak basis, it looks as if lewis would have had a pretty darned good career for himself.

rip 35

Yes, truly.

But oddly enough..Jeff Green reminds me a bit of Reggie...there was even a similar thread/fanpost about this same thing a while back....similar build..long...great potential for defense..same heart condition, I believe - with the exception of Today's Technology perhaps identifying Jeff's condition.

Didn't Reggie and Jeff even attend schools in nearly the same location? Northeastern and Georgetown (Maryland area?)...

Jeff Green has already been key for us defensively vs Carmelo and LeBron....
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Roy H. on March 02, 2013, 12:27:09 PM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

Just another guy who dropped 63 on the Celtics in a playoff game.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Snakehead on March 02, 2013, 12:33:38 PM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

Way overboard but I don't think he would have had the same championship success, no.

To me he isn't the far away best ever like some say but he could certainly be the best ever.  I find getting to that level of specific ranking rather pointless as there are so many facets to the players themselves and their situations.


That's always been my argument.  You list the top 10 players of all time, and Jordan is the only who was in his prime during the '90s.  Magic and Larry were on their way out and the likes of Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (if you wanted to include them) were too young. 

I suppose you could bring Hakeem into the discussion, but he never actually faced Jordan in a playoff game...ever. 

I mean how many titles would Larry Bird have won if there was no Magic to play against?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell played in a different era? 

So I think there's really a good argument to be made about Jordan being overrated.  He's still a top 10 player and potentially the greatest ever, but if he played 10 years earlier or 10 years later, I'm not sure he'd stand out in people's minds as much as he does now.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

Jordan was just better than them. He willed his teams to win through sickness and injury sometimes with little to no help.

The man took 2 years off and then came back to lead his team to the best single season record in NBA history and a title.

Overrated is never a word that should be used to describe Michael Jordan as a player. Ever.

You have no idea what he's talking about?  I think he pretty clearly said it:

The only top 10 player who didn't face other top 10 players in his prime.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Celtics4ever on March 02, 2013, 12:37:15 PM
Jordan was a great player, so too was Bird.  Jordan won his titles at a time when the league was low on talent.   It's not his fault but no way do they beat the C's of the 80's, the showtime Lakers or the 83 sixers.   Pipp and MJ would not be enough to take those teams, our bench guys on the 86 team would have started on the MJ teams.   I would take 86 Walton over Longley.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 02, 2013, 12:37:51 PM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

Just another guy who dropped 63 on the Celtics in a playoff game.

And lost, thankfully.

The Big Three stepped up Big-Time in that game.

But Michael was on fire...
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: ianboyextreme on March 02, 2013, 12:48:10 PM
for reggie lewis we will never know. but if you compare his first 5 years to pierce they are not terribly different in terms of points, rebounds, etc.

pierce was clearly better in those stats, but not dramatically.

so....based solely upon that weak basis, it looks as if lewis would have had a pretty darned good career for himself.

rip 35

Yes, truly.

But oddly enough..Jeff Green reminds me a bit of Reggie...there was even a similar thread/fanpost about this same thing a while back....similar build..long...great potential for defense..same heart condition, I believe - with the exception of Today's Technology perhaps identifying Jeff's condition.

Didn't Reggie and Jeff even attend schools in nearly the same location? Northeastern and Georgetown (Maryland area?)...

Jeff Green has already been key for us defensively vs Carmelo and LeBron....
It was actually Bias who had all the uncanny similarities with Green. Maybe Lewis is connected with another player, though.

Avery Bradley kind of seems to channel the same kind demeanor as Lewis to me.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Jon on March 02, 2013, 12:52:27 PM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

Way overboard but I don't think he would have had the same championship success, no.

To me he isn't the far away best ever like some say but he could certainly be the best ever.  I find getting to that level of specific ranking rather pointless as there are so many facets to the players themselves and their situations.


That's always been my argument.  You list the top 10 players of all time, and Jordan is the only who was in his prime during the '90s.  Magic and Larry were on their way out and the likes of Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (if you wanted to include them) were too young. 

I suppose you could bring Hakeem into the discussion, but he never actually faced Jordan in a playoff game...ever. 

I mean how many titles would Larry Bird have won if there was no Magic to play against?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell played in a different era? 

So I think there's really a good argument to be made about Jordan being overrated.  He's still a top 10 player and potentially the greatest ever, but if he played 10 years earlier or 10 years later, I'm not sure he'd stand out in people's minds as much as he does now.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

Jordan was just better than them. He willed his teams to win through sickness and injury sometimes with little to no help.

The man took 2 years off and then came back to lead his team to the best single season record in NBA history and a title.

Overrated is never a word that should be used to describe Michael Jordan as a player. Ever.

You have no idea what he's talking about?  I think he pretty clearly said it:

The only top 10 player who didn't face other top 10 players in his prime.

Yep. 

That's pretty much it. 

None of those players you mentioned are really elite, elite players.  If Barkley was truly a transcendent player, he would've made it to the Finals more than once. 

And that's the problem.  Bird has to contend with Magic's Lakers and vice versa.  Both were perennial contenders.  Who was a perennial contender in Jordan's era? 

No one.  The closest thing we get is the Utah Jazz, who managed to string together two Finals appearance in a row. 

Again, my point isn't that Jordan isn't the greatest player ever.  I said in my last post that he quite possibly could be.  I simply think he's overrated when people say that his status as the all time great player is unquestioned. 

If he had played 10 years earlier or later, it's quite possible he'd have won far fewer titles and would've been viewed as simply a top 10 player and not the unquestioned greatest player of all time. 
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: moiso on March 02, 2013, 12:53:35 PM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

Just another guy who dropped 63 on the Celtics in a playoff game.
Seems like eja117 was poking fun at how Isiah said that if Bird were black he would be just another guy.  Maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 02, 2013, 12:58:57 PM
for reggie lewis we will never know. but if you compare his first 5 years to pierce they are not terribly different in terms of points, rebounds, etc.

pierce was clearly better in those stats, but not dramatically.

so....based solely upon that weak basis, it looks as if lewis would have had a pretty darned good career for himself.

rip 35

Yes, truly.

But oddly enough..Jeff Green reminds me a bit of Reggie...there was even a similar thread/fanpost about this same thing a while back....similar build..long...great potential for defense..same heart condition, I believe - with the exception of Today's Technology perhaps identifying Jeff's condition.

Didn't Reggie and Jeff even attend schools in nearly the same location? Northeastern and Georgetown (Maryland area?)...

Jeff Green has already been key for us defensively vs Carmelo and LeBron....
It was actually Bias who had all the uncanny similarities with Green. Maybe Lewis is connected with another player, though.

Avery Bradley kind of seems to channel the same kind demeanor as Lewis to me.

Good point...even with AB and Lewis demeanor comparison.

Man, if Jeff Green can continue his upward trajectory.....

BOS is due for some good things to happen.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Eja117 on March 02, 2013, 01:34:20 PM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

Just another guy who dropped 63 on the Celtics in a playoff game.
Seems like eja117 was poking fun at how Isiah said that if Bird were black he would be just another guy.  Maybe I'm wrong.
Oh I wish I were that smart
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: nostar on March 05, 2013, 01:50:29 AM
I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

Jordan was just better than them. He willed his teams to win through sickness and injury sometimes with little to no help.

The man took 2 years off and then came back to lead his team to the best single season record in NBA history and a title.

Overrated is never a word that should be used to describe Michael Jordan as a player. Ever.

You have no idea what he's talking about?  I think he pretty clearly said it:

The only top 10 player who didn't face other top 10 players in his prime.

First of all that "he didn't play against other top-10 players" argument is bunk. So bunk. That list is different depending on who you ask. Some people don't even put Bill Russell on it. Do you guys think he would be a top-10 all-time player in today's league? Please tell me you see how that argument is bunk. It's just a terrible basis for comparison.

Second, MJ played against Bird and Magic for 6-7 years (about half their careers). Including playoffs he played 52 games with those guys combined. Some of his best statistical seasons came in the late 80s. Those 3 guys are actually remarkably close in age. Larry is only 4 years older than MJ and Magic is only 3 years older. Did Kobe and Shaq play in different eras? How about Cousy and Russell?

I'd agree that Michael never had a storybook rival in the 90s but I'm not willing to say that it was because the talent in the NBA was thin. Barkley, Olajuwon, Robinson, Drexler, Malone, Stockton...those guys are pretty great. Jordan was just better. If you look at just stats he was better than Magic and Bird too. I think if anything those guys would have won less if Michael had any kind of team during their era.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: wayupnorth on March 05, 2013, 02:19:32 AM
I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

Jordan was just better than them. He willed his teams to win through sickness and injury sometimes with little to no help.

The man took 2 years off and then came back to lead his team to the best single season record in NBA history and a title.

Overrated is never a word that should be used to describe Michael Jordan as a player. Ever.

You have no idea what he's talking about?  I think he pretty clearly said it:

The only top 10 player who didn't face other top 10 players in his prime.

First of all that "he didn't play against other top-10 players" argument is bunk. So bunk. That list is different depending on who you ask. Some people don't even put Bill Russell on it. Do you guys think he would be a top-10 all-time player in today's league? Please tell me you see how that argument is bunk. It's just a terrible basis for comparison.

Second, MJ played against Bird and Magic for 6-7 years (about half their careers). Including playoffs he played 52 games with those guys combined. Some of his best statistical seasons came in the late 80s. Those 3 guys are actually remarkably close in age. Larry is only 4 years older than MJ and Magic is only 3 years older. Did Kobe and Shaq play in different eras? How about Cousy and Russell?

I'd agree that Michael never had a storybook rival in the 90s but I'm not willing to say that it was because the talent in the NBA was thin. Barkley, Olajuwon, Robinson, Drexler, Malone, Stockton...those guys are pretty great. Jordan was just better. If you look at just stats he was better than Magic and Bird too. I think if anything those guys would have won less if Michael had any kind of team during their era.


Russell would be year in year out DPOY candidate. A very, very rich mans Ben Wallace if you will.

As a C's fan this kills me, but I think if LeBron and MJ switched places, LBJ would have more success then, than MJ would have today.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: staticcc on March 05, 2013, 02:59:38 AM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

It can go both ways. Bird and Magic could have ended up not winning a thing if Jordan was in that era.

Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Mr Green on March 05, 2013, 06:57:00 AM
I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

Jordan was just better than them. He willed his teams to win through sickness and injury sometimes with little to no help.

The man took 2 years off and then came back to lead his team to the best single season record in NBA history and a title.

Overrated is never a word that should be used to describe Michael Jordan as a player. Ever.

You have no idea what he's talking about?  I think he pretty clearly said it:

The only top 10 player who didn't face other top 10 players in his prime.

First of all that "he didn't play against other top-10 players" argument is bunk. So bunk. That list is different depending on who you ask. Some people don't even put Bill Russell on it. Do you guys think he would be a top-10 all-time player in today's league? Please tell me you see how that argument is bunk. It's just a terrible basis for comparison.

Second, MJ played against Bird and Magic for 6-7 years (about half their careers). Including playoffs he played 52 games with those guys combined. Some of his best statistical seasons came in the late 80s. Those 3 guys are actually remarkably close in age. Larry is only 4 years older than MJ and Magic is only 3 years older. Did Kobe and Shaq play in different eras? How about Cousy and Russell?

I'd agree that Michael never had a storybook rival in the 90s but I'm not willing to say that it was because the talent in the NBA was thin. Barkley, Olajuwon, Robinson, Drexler, Malone, Stockton...those guys are pretty great. Jordan was just better. If you look at just stats he was better than Magic and Bird too. I think if anything those guys would have won less if Michael had any kind of team during their era.


Russell would be year in year out DPOY candidate. A very, very rich mans Ben Wallace if you will.

As a C's fan this kills me, but I think if LeBron and MJ switched places, LBJ would have more success then, than MJ would have today.

LBJ has never had to proove himself against physical defences the likes of Daly's Pistons or Riley's Knicks, while MJ would thrive in the modern era where defender's can't hand check or trash talk.

No one has ever heard the words "Michael Jordan Olympic Bronze Medalist" either.

I don't remember anything like this ever happening to MJ: www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMY6cqd8al0

It's a pity that MJ never faced Len Bias as a pro, they would have been the yin to each other's yang. However, a bigger shame is that MJ's Bulls never contested the NBA Finals against Hakeem's Rockets, that would have been fantastic to watch.

As for the MJ vs Larry argument set out in previous posts, it was a long time ago but I'm pretty certain that MJ never won a playoff game against Larry. MJ's Bulls were swept twice by the Cs. I guess it comes down to whether you have a personal preference for MJ's athleticism or Larry's fundamentals. I'm a meat and potato guy, which is why I have a photo of Larry in my office.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: slamtheking on March 05, 2013, 08:17:52 AM
seems to me the debate on Jordan's greatness coincides with when someone 'came of age' in terms of watching the NBA.  From what I've noticed, the vast bulk of the people who were around at least long enough to have seen all of Bird and Magic's careers have stated in various forums that Bird and Magic are superior to Jordan (myself included). 

People who came of age in Bird/Magic's decline and Jordan's ascension (or later) feel Jordan is superior -- typically backing that viewpoint up with either stats, athleticism or championships.  I don't agree that any of those are valid arguments but that's me.

Anyone old enough to have seen Russell and Wilt, have been pretty steadfast that Russell is the best ever (I wish I was in that group that had seen him).

IMHO, I'd have to agree that Jordan is truly one of the all-time greats but I don't think he's the best ever.  If I was picking players to build the best team ever, my selections would go Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic and possibly Oscar Robertson before I picked Jordan. 

I'm not knocking Jordan's accomplishments but let's be honest about his competition -- he did not have any one of the other top players playing in his era (in their prime).  I don't think he wins 6 titles if he plays 10 years sooner or later.  He had the 'luxury' of playing in an era where a single great player could put a team on his back and practically win a title by himself. 

Russell couldn't beat Wilt without the other great players on his team.  Wilt couldn't beat Russell even with HOF'ers on his teams.  Same for Bird and Magic -- they both needed a lot of top level talent on their teams to beat each other.  Who'd Jordan need to beat the others--an overrated Scottie Pippen? 
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Celtics17 on March 05, 2013, 09:08:49 AM
Scottie Pippen, overrated? Wow, Pippen had to be on of the most underrated players I ever saw play. He was also the only player in the league for many seasons who could have shut down Jordan.

I think it's not the individual talent on the 80's teams that makes them so much better it's the overall talent. To say that Ewing, Malone, Barkely were not top level players in the 90's is hogwash. But, their teams were not all=time top level teams like the Celts and Lackers of the 80's. The era of the 80's had the American baby-boom generation still in youth however by the mid 90's the talent pool of these same boomers was significantly reduced.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Mr Green on March 05, 2013, 09:55:33 AM
Yes, Scottie Pippen was a great player, however it's difficult to accept that he achieved anything of significance without the opportunity of riding the coat tails of Michael Jordan so to speak. Pippen couldn't be the man in 1993/94 or 1994/95 plus his cupboard is noticably bare post-1997/98. I would suggets that being able to practice day in and day out in scrimmages against MJ was the cornerstone of Pippen's success.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: D.o.s. on March 05, 2013, 10:09:14 AM
Sports greatness ebbs and flows with the collective memory of the fans. Part of the reason why Bill Russell is still considered one of the greatest players ever (if not the GOAT) is because, even if you never saw him play--a statement that covers most NBA fans, even those old enough to be paying attention in the 60's--you can still say "most rings."

Jordan was the foremost NBA superstar at the dawn of the new age of information--when television, newspapers, and (later) the internet were first able to provide an insane amount of coverage on a given athlete. So, if you were born in, say, 1986, and you were in to basketball, you grew up watching Jordan and grew up with the internet, where all your childhood memories can now be revisited at any keyboard. That's a huge cultural adjustment that simply didn't exist for fans of Magic, Bird, Russell, etc.


Was Jordan the best player ever? Maybe. Did was he the best player when the confluence of media and sports marketing created a behemoth of a public figure? Definitely.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: kozlodoev on March 05, 2013, 10:37:55 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svHk8Zntc5g
I'm sorry, but all this video has is Bird making some hoops while Jordan is in the near vicinity (i.e. on the same court). Not sure how this is "schooling" him.

I guess the important part was to rant about Jordan's off-the-court activities. Such a pity.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: EJPLAYA on March 05, 2013, 10:49:09 AM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: rondohondo on March 05, 2013, 11:00:50 AM
Still think Russell would have dominated in the 90's and today, just look at the athleticism and skill in this short clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j2AlFrOj5Mc


Grabs the rebound,in 5 dribbles goes coast to coast , taking off near the free throw line with the left handed finish!

that's freakish athletic ability!
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: slamtheking on March 05, 2013, 11:09:40 AM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.
Stockton and Malone are great players but I wouldn't characterize them as the best ever at their positions.  I'd take Magic, Oscar Robertson and Bob Cousy over Stockton.  I might even take Isaia Thomas too. 

Malone was just built differently than the other guys he played against.  The physique was impressive and he really ran on fast breaks.  not sure I'd call him the best PF ever though.  I'd probably go with Duncan and KG over him and that's just recent players.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 11:10:52 AM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Celtics4ever on March 05, 2013, 11:16:11 AM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: celtsfan84 on March 05, 2013, 11:24:32 AM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

Jordan was also 9x All-Defensive First Team and a Defensive Player of the Year.  Bird was a 3x All-Defensive Second Team.

Ignoring defense, the comparison is close.

With knowledge that the game is played on both ends, the gap grows wider.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 11:53:22 AM
That's always been my argument.  You list the top 10 players of all time, and Jordan is the only who was in his prime during the '90s.  Magic and Larry were on their way out and the likes of Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (if you wanted to include them) were too young. 

I suppose you could bring Hakeem into the discussion, but he never actually faced Jordan in a playoff game...ever. 

I mean how many titles would Larry Bird have won if there was no Magic to play against?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell played in a different era? 

So I think there's really a good argument to be made about Jordan being overrated.  He's still a top 10 player and potentially the greatest ever, but if he played 10 years earlier or 10 years later, I'm not sure he'd stand out in people's minds as much as he does now.

You can say that about anyone. If so and so played during this time then they would have been better or worse. Its all speculation at the end of the day. MJ is the greatest to ever do it. For all you stat boys there's plenty of numbers to back that up lol.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: csfansince60s on March 05, 2013, 12:07:52 PM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

It can go both ways. Bird and Magic could have ended up not winning a thing if Jordan was in that era.

Unlikely, altough "anything's possible". ;)

The difference is McHale/Parrish/DJ and Jabbar/Worthy/Scott vs Pippen and who else?
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 12:08:38 PM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: KG_ended_Bias on March 05, 2013, 12:11:34 PM
I agree with most on here, if you take a prime Jordan & place him & his BEST team up against the 86' Celtics in a 7 game series, at best they win 2 games & at worst they get swept! So in that aspect if Jordan plays like Jordan but never wins a ring just as Charles Barkley, Ewing,Malone & Stockton never done would we be calling him the greatest ever? That's a emphatic NO. Jordan benefitted from Bird's bonespurs problem coupled with Bias death. So I guess it was meant for him to win something because look how things broke open for him with these events (Magic HIV) & (Lewis death). But if those 4 significant things never happened & things progressed naturally Jordan would be a loveable loser just like his buddy Sir Charles because he wasn't going to win a thing!
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 12:15:18 PM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 12:16:47 PM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

It can go both ways. Bird and Magic could have ended up not winning a thing if Jordan was in that era.

  That's kind of like saying Kobe and Dirk couldn't win titles if they played in LeBron's era.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: celtsfan84 on March 05, 2013, 12:20:15 PM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

Rondo, clearly.  Then Bird.  Then Russell.  Then Jordan behind 15 other former Celtics.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 12:22:34 PM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

Rondo, clearly.  Then Bird.  Then Russell.  Then Jordan behind 15 other former Celtics.

Lol, TP!
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 12:28:30 PM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

  I think it's pretty close but I prefer Bird.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 12:29:43 PM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

Rondo, clearly.  Then Bird.  Then Russell.  Then Jordan behind 15 other former Celtics.

  It's nice that your school lets you play on the computers at lunch time.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: celtsfan84 on March 05, 2013, 12:32:09 PM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

Rondo, clearly.  Then Bird.  Then Russell.  Then Jordan behind 15 other former Celtics.

  It's nice that your school lets you play on the computers at lunch time.

It's nice that your parents let you keep your Rondo posters on their basement walls.  Hopefully they haven't thrown out your Bird posters.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 12:38:01 PM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

Rondo, clearly.  Then Bird.  Then Russell.  Then Jordan behind 15 other former Celtics.

  It's nice that your school lets you play on the computers at lunch time.

It's nice that your parents let you keep your Rondo posters on their basement walls.

  Good retort. With your debating skills I'm sure any victory, no matter how small, is worth cherishing.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: celtsfan84 on March 05, 2013, 12:42:35 PM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

Rondo, clearly.  Then Bird.  Then Russell.  Then Jordan behind 15 other former Celtics.

  It's nice that your school lets you play on the computers at lunch time.

It's nice that your parents let you keep your Rondo posters on their basement walls.

  Good retort. With your debating skills I'm sure any victory, no matter how small, is worth cherishing.

Well, seeing that your "debate skills" feature stating that "Home Player X" is better than "Star Player Y", followed by snarky remarks that add nothing to your original statement and are unfunny at best, the bar is set very low.  But thanks.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 12:44:50 PM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

Rondo, clearly.  Then Bird.  Then Russell.  Then Jordan behind 15 other former Celtics.

  It's nice that your school lets you play on the computers at lunch time.

It's nice that your parents let you keep your Rondo posters on their basement walls.

  Good retort. With your debating skills I'm sure any victory, no matter how small, is worth cherishing.

Well, seeing that your debate skills feature "Home Player X" is better than "Star Player Y", followed by snarky remarks, the bar is set very low.  But thanks.

  No, that's your reading comprehension skills which are apparently directly related to your debating skills. Do you actually have anything to add to this discussion or did you just come here to nip at my heels?
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: celtsfan84 on March 05, 2013, 12:49:10 PM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

Rondo, clearly.  Then Bird.  Then Russell.  Then Jordan behind 15 other former Celtics.

  It's nice that your school lets you play on the computers at lunch time.

It's nice that your parents let you keep your Rondo posters on their basement walls.

  Good retort. With your debating skills I'm sure any victory, no matter how small, is worth cherishing.

Well, seeing that your debate skills feature "Home Player X" is better than "Star Player Y", followed by snarky remarks, the bar is set very low.  But thanks.

  No, that's your reading comprehension skills which are apparently directly related to your debating skills. Do you actually have anything to add to this discussion or did you just come here to nip at my heels?

Very mature and hilarious yet again, Tim.

I'll add that maybe you should watch games that aren't Celtics games once in a while.  It is entirely possible that some other franchise might also have good players.

My reading comprehension skills are fine.  I can understand and see through your nonsense quite clearly.  It's a shame, because if you were as smart as you seem to think you are, we'd probably have a cure for all of the world's problems by now.

Have fun with your retort.  I'm sure you'll find a way to get the "last word" as you always do, with something snarky and unfunny.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Donoghus on March 05, 2013, 12:54:30 PM
How about the two of you knock it off?  No one here really wants to put up with you nonsense across multiple threads.[/color]
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 12:55:59 PM
Bird made his team mates better, Jordan carried his team mates more than making them better.  He can't touch Larry in rebounds or passing only shooting and scoring

  In no way can Jordan touch Larry in shooting. Scoring yes, defense yes, everything else no.

Wait, so who are you saying is the better overall basketball player?

  To expound on this I'd say that MJ was a significantly superior athlete but Bird held a similar advantage in BBIQ/vision/overall skills. If you compare their careers up to the point where Bird was slowed by injuries and MJ was suspended their achievements were pretty similar. Bird was probably a little older during that time but MJ had 3 years without Magic or Thomas (or Bird) in their primes. Jordan put up somewhat better stats but he was more the focus of his offense while Bird blended in with his teammates and made them better, MJ wouldn't have been able to do that as well. Also, when you consider MJ having better stats look at what happened to the numbers for players like PP/RA/KG or even Kobe when they were teamed with good players.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 01:01:51 PM
deleted
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: biggs on March 05, 2013, 01:04:08 PM
I'd put it this way- if Bird had the athletic ability Jordan possessed, he may have been the best of all time.  To me, Jordan was the best because of his creativity, his drive and his athletic ability.  Bird possesses only one two of those traits.  Magic is just a freak and can't be compared to anyone, because despite our boy Terrence Williams, I haven't seen a point guard over 6'5 have a "magic run" in quite some time.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 01:11:09 PM
I'd put it this way- if Bird had the athletic ability Jordan possessed, he may have been the best of all time.  To me, Jordan was the best because of his creativity, his drive and his athletic ability.  Bird possesses only one two of those traits.  Magic is just a freak and can't be compared to anyone, because despite our boy Terrence Williams, I haven't seen a point guard over 6'5 have a "magic run" in quite some time.

  I'd compare Bird's advantage in creativity and overall basketball skill to MJ's advantage in athletic ability. MJ was a better defender, Bird was clearly better at passing and shooting and rebounding.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: EJPLAYA on March 05, 2013, 02:09:10 PM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 02:34:54 PM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: EJPLAYA on March 05, 2013, 03:00:08 PM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything. Stockton made average players look very good due to his ability to put them in the best positions. (see Jeff Hornacek, Bryon Russell, Shandon Anderson) When he needed to he also scored. (Not sure how you dismiss almost 20k pts)

Remember, he doesn't just lead the all time list in Assists and Steals, he dominates it. Second place isn't really even close. It will likely stand forever. Stockton played the PG position the way it ought to be played. All the others that were  "take over" guards were just undersized 2 guards who brought the ball up.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 03:03:25 PM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: EJPLAYA on March 05, 2013, 03:32:43 PM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

First of all, we are a better team with Rondo sitting on the bench. It's a fact. This team would be legit contenders with Stockton on the floor instead of Rondo.

I watched Isaiah very closely and he is the one exception to the rule, however I would also argue that they won 2 championships with him only because of their nasty defense, not his scoring prowess.

The other thought is that if you don't think that Stockton ever took over and carried them in games then you clearly didn't watch Stockton. Just ask Barkley about him putting him out of the series when he was with Houston. Stockton had tons of games where he stepped in and scored big. You clearly were "watching" him in the box scores versus seeing him play much.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: dark_lord on March 05, 2013, 04:06:19 PM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

(http://www.prosportsblogging.com/psb/uploads/2012/07/what-the-just-stop.jpg)
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 05, 2013, 04:12:29 PM
yep. If Jordan had played the bulk of his career during prime healthy Magic/Bird/I Thomas days he would be just another guy

(http://www.prosportsblogging.com/psb/uploads/2012/07/what-the-just-stop.jpg)
Lololololol!!!
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: LarBrd33 on March 05, 2013, 04:23:19 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received. 
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 04:27:00 PM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

First of all, we are a better team with Rondo sitting on the bench. It's a fact. This team would be legit contenders with Stockton on the floor instead of Rondo.

  If it's a fact that we're a better team without Rondo then barring major injury we'll be playing in the finals. Get back to me when that happens.

I watched Isaiah very closely and he is the one exception to the rule, however I would also argue that they won 2 championships with him only because of their nasty defense, not his scoring prowess.

  If you don't think Isiah was a great scorer then you didn't watch him closely. He's also far from the one exception to the rule. KJ, CP3, Tiny were also great scorers and that's without giving it a moment's thought.

The other thought is that if you don't think that Stockton ever took over and carried them in games then you clearly didn't watch Stockton. Just ask Barkley about him putting him out of the series when he was with Houston. Stockton had tons of games where he stepped in and scored big. You clearly were "watching" him in the box scores versus seeing him play much.

  Okay, so we've gone from "good point guards don't take over and carry teams" to "Stockton took over games and carried teams". And as for Stockton scoring big, he had 7 career playoff games where he scored 25 or more points. Rondo has 8.
 
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 04:38:12 PM
That's always been my argument.  You list the top 10 players of all time, and Jordan is the only who was in his prime during the '90s.  Magic and Larry were on their way out and the likes of Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (if you wanted to include them) were too young. 

I suppose you could bring Hakeem into the discussion, but he never actually faced Jordan in a playoff game...ever. 

I mean how many titles would Larry Bird have won if there was no Magic to play against?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell played in a different era? 

So I think there's really a good argument to be made about Jordan being overrated.  He's still a top 10 player and potentially the greatest ever, but if he played 10 years earlier or 10 years later, I'm not sure he'd stand out in people's minds as much as he does now.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

  I remember Jordan competing against Thomas in his prime, the results didn't go the Bulls way.

  I was looking at your list trying to figure out who you meant when you mis-typed "Rice". Then it dawned on me that you actually meant to type that. Egads.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 04:46:40 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

  If Durant wasn't in the league (or never wins a title) then LeBron would be similar to MJ, struggling to win in the postseason until Kobe/KG/Shaq/TD were past their prime and having great success when there's no superstars to challenge him.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: EJPLAYA on March 05, 2013, 04:58:37 PM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

First of all, we are a better team with Rondo sitting on the bench. It's a fact. This team would be legit contenders with Stockton on the floor instead of Rondo.

  If it's a fact that we're a better team without Rondo then barring major injury we'll be playing in the finals. Get back to me when that happens.

I watched Isaiah very closely and he is the one exception to the rule, however I would also argue that they won 2 championships with him only because of their nasty defense, not his scoring prowess.

  If you don't think Isiah was a great scorer then you didn't watch him closely. He's also far from the one exception to the rule. KJ, CP3, Tiny were also great scorers and that's without giving it a moment's thought.

The other thought is that if you don't think that Stockton ever took over and carried them in games then you clearly didn't watch Stockton. Just ask Barkley about him putting him out of the series when he was with Houston. Stockton had tons of games where he stepped in and scored big. You clearly were "watching" him in the box scores versus seeing him play much.

  Okay, so we've gone from "good point guards don't take over and carry teams" to "Stockton took over games and carried teams". And as for Stockton scoring big, he had 7 career playoff games where he scored 25 or more points. Rondo has 8.

KJ and CP3 haven't won jack. Tiny isn't in ANYONE'S argument as one of the great PG's of all time and without Larry also wouldn't have won jack. He wasn't the man. Good player, not in the conversation with Stockton or Magic or Isaiah.

Don't misquote me. I said that when needed Stockton COULD step in and carry the team if needed. Rondo on the other hand thinks it is his ROLE to carry us and that we are better when he does it. Not true, but he thinks that.

I said that Stockton was the best TRUE pg of all time. The stats show that. The most important stats of a PG are assists and steals. No one else is close.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: bdm860 on March 05, 2013, 05:00:04 PM
That's always been my argument.  You list the top 10 players of all time, and Jordan is the only who was in his prime during the '90s.  Magic and Larry were on their way out and the likes of Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (if you wanted to include them) were too young. 

I suppose you could bring Hakeem into the discussion, but he never actually faced Jordan in a playoff game...ever. 

I mean how many titles would Larry Bird have won if there was no Magic to play against?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell played in a different era? 

So I think there's really a good argument to be made about Jordan being overrated.  He's still a top 10 player and potentially the greatest ever, but if he played 10 years earlier or 10 years later, I'm not sure he'd stand out in people's minds as much as he does now.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

  I remember Jordan competing against Thomas in his prime, the results didn't go the Bulls way.

  I was looking at your list trying to figure out who you meant when you mis-typed "Rice". Then it dawned on me that you actually meant to type that. Egads.
I used to like this argument, "what top 10 player did Jordan go against"?

But the more I thought about it and looked into it, I think it's kind of crap.

Jordan beat Magic in the Finals as many times as Bird did.

Jordan beat a 31 year old Magic, who was All-NBA first team, had a PER of 25.1, on a Lakers team that had 58 wins.  Let’s not act like Magic wasn’t in his prime then.  And he beat the reigning Finals MVP, a 29 year old Isiah Thomas to get to Magic’s Lakers

How many top 10 players were so far out of their prime at 29 and 31?
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 05:25:55 PM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

First of all, we are a better team with Rondo sitting on the bench. It's a fact. This team would be legit contenders with Stockton on the floor instead of Rondo.

  If it's a fact that we're a better team without Rondo then barring major injury we'll be playing in the finals. Get back to me when that happens.

I watched Isaiah very closely and he is the one exception to the rule, however I would also argue that they won 2 championships with him only because of their nasty defense, not his scoring prowess.

  If you don't think Isiah was a great scorer then you didn't watch him closely. He's also far from the one exception to the rule. KJ, CP3, Tiny were also great scorers and that's without giving it a moment's thought.

The other thought is that if you don't think that Stockton ever took over and carried them in games then you clearly didn't watch Stockton. Just ask Barkley about him putting him out of the series when he was with Houston. Stockton had tons of games where he stepped in and scored big. You clearly were "watching" him in the box scores versus seeing him play much.

  Okay, so we've gone from "good point guards don't take over and carry teams" to "Stockton took over games and carried teams". And as for Stockton scoring big, he had 7 career playoff games where he scored 25 or more points. Rondo has 8.

KJ and CP3 haven't won jack. Tiny isn't in ANYONE'S argument as one of the great PG's of all time and without Larry also wouldn't have won jack. He wasn't the man. Good player, not in the conversation with Stockton or Magic or Isaiah.

Don't misquote me. I said that when needed Stockton COULD step in and carry the team if needed. Rondo on the other hand thinks it is his ROLE to carry us and that we are better when he does it. Not true, but he thinks that.

I said that Stockton was the best TRUE pg of all time. The stats show that. The most important stats of a PG are assists and steals. No one else is close.

  Don't misquote yourself. You said a true pg doesn't take over and carry teams. Are you claiming that CP isn't a true pg? If not, why not?

  You also said Stockton had "tons of games" when he took over and scored big. Now you're trying to back away from that obviously false claim.

  Lastly, the stats don't show that Stockton was the best "true pg" (a term meant to exclude the obviously better pg Magic) ever, it shows he was in the conversation. His average game might have been better than any other pg ever, but his best play didn't measure up to the best play of other top point guards.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 05:38:36 PM
That's always been my argument.  You list the top 10 players of all time, and Jordan is the only who was in his prime during the '90s.  Magic and Larry were on their way out and the likes of Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (if you wanted to include them) were too young. 

I suppose you could bring Hakeem into the discussion, but he never actually faced Jordan in a playoff game...ever. 

I mean how many titles would Larry Bird have won if there was no Magic to play against?  Or how many titles would Wilt have won if Russell played in a different era? 

So I think there's really a good argument to be made about Jordan being overrated.  He's still a top 10 player and potentially the greatest ever, but if he played 10 years earlier or 10 years later, I'm not sure he'd stand out in people's minds as much as he does now.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan competed directly with Barkely, Ewing, Dumars, Thomas, Rice and Drexler, most of them in their prime. I'm not saying he had an equal in that list but come on. Those guys are all HoFers and most first-ballot.

  I remember Jordan competing against Thomas in his prime, the results didn't go the Bulls way.

  I was looking at your list trying to figure out who you meant when you mis-typed "Rice". Then it dawned on me that you actually meant to type that. Egads.
I used to like this argument, "what top 10 player did Jordan go against"?

But the more I thought about it and looked into it, I think it's kind of crap.

Jordan beat Magic in the Finals as many times as Bird did.

Jordan beat a 31 year old Magic, who was All-NBA first team, had a PER of 25.1, on a Lakers team that had 58 wins.  Let’s not act like Magic wasn’t in his prime then.  And he beat the reigning Finals MVP, a 29 year old Isiah Thomas to get to Magic’s Lakers

How many top 10 players were so far out of their prime at 29 and 31?

  Isiah's prime was cut short due to injuries. I don't think he played much past 30. I'll give you Magic although that Lakers team was nowhere near the team it was from 84-89.

  Edit: In general I don't think of the discussion in terms of MJ not going against any great player but that I don't think he faced any great teams. In the 80s the Celts, Lakers and Pistons were all great teams and all of them went to the finals at least 3 straight years. Aside from the Jazz (who I wasn't overly impressed with) the teams the Bulls faced were all one and dones.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: aporel#18 on March 05, 2013, 06:00:31 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell is the greatest basketball player of all time. Period.

He's a smart guy, he was successful in college, olympics and won as a rookie. Yep, he had HOF teammates, but he made them better because he was the most intelligent guy on court. He was able to contain the most dominant basketball player of all time, prime Wilt Chamberlain. Bill and Wilt were world-class athletes, just as good if not better than MJ.

You're right comparing MJ to LeBron, two overhyped stars who are great players, both into top-10 all-time discussion. LeBron has a more complete game, but Jordan was a better defender. Both were good enough to get media attention in their early years, yet not good enough to beat their rivals. The difference is Jordan had to deal with Celtics/Lakers/Pistons, while the only great teams LeBron had to deal with is the Spurs and the Celtics. Great teams, still not good enough to compare to those 80s teams.

Both are very lucky. Jordan was lucky because of Bird/McHale/Bias/Reggie for the Celtics, Magic for the Lakers, Sampson for the Rockets had unlucky career endings, and the Pistons declined after their back-to-back titles.  LBJ is lucky because of KG's knee injury (Celtics 3-peat without that), and the Spurs are too old.

And both have taken advantage of ESPN/Nike/Stern new era of NBA. Star calls, media attention and endorsements. But Jordan was able to win a lot, while LeBron still has to prove he can win multiple titles.

Larry Bird was a comparable level to MJ, only because of MJ's defense and athleticism which helped him to be a great player. They share the All-time greats 2nd tier with Magic and Kareem, but they're half a step below Wilt (who had to deal with the Celtics) and two and a half steps below Bill Russell, absolute GOAT on and off the court, incredible player, great coach and huge personality.

I wish the Celtics get Larry Legend to work for them, he's also a great basketball mind, like Russell and unlike Jordan, who has shown little basketball knowledge in his time in Washington and Charlotte. Maybe Pippen was terribly underrated, because he was a better defender but all the credit went always to MJ.

Of course, if Bias can play for the 1987 Celtics, maybe McHale can rest to heal his foot, taking some weight off Larry's back, and the 1987-1988 Celtics with healthy McHale and Bird start a multiple title streak with Bias and Reggie entering their prime as champions. Then MJ (or the Detroit Pistons) is not another guy, but maybe a one time champion, maybe two.

Another interesting what if is, if Bill Russell had been drafted in the 80s, the kids would wear Air Russells. Of course, that means the 60s Celtics would've been "another team", so I'm fine with Air Jordans or Air LeBrons.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: ronaldo943 on March 05, 2013, 06:06:45 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Amazingly put.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 05, 2013, 06:09:17 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Who knows how many LeBron will win? We can only say 1, at this point in time.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: ronaldo943 on March 05, 2013, 06:10:55 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Who knows how many LeBron will win? We can only say 1, at this point in time.

He said Lebron might go on to win he didnt say Lebron will do it
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 05, 2013, 06:14:57 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Who knows how many LeBron will win? We can only say 1, at this point in time.

He said Lebron might go on to win he didnt say Lebron will do it

I agree.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 06:30:24 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Who knows how many LeBron will win? We can only say 1, at this point in time.

Id be shocked if lebron and the heat didn't win multiple titles. Ill say there's no way they don't win at least 2 more. With how good they are plus the refs on their side, they might be [dang] near unstoppable.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: wayupnorth on March 05, 2013, 06:51:00 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 05, 2013, 06:52:25 PM
All this thread is doing is making me miss the Old Days......

Dr. J..Olajuwon and Sampson's Twin Towers...Buck Williams...Sleepy Floyd...Mookie Blaylock....Tree Rollins...;D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VlM1h5vwyY

Forget Michael and Larry...and LeBron, too, for that matter.

Any man that small that will go after Wayne "Tree" Rollins deserves much love from me.

6'4" 175 pounds vs 7'1" and 235 (Tree HAD to be bigger than that...he looks at LEAST 270-280 in that vid).

Danny Ainge was/is The Man.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 06:55:37 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: celtsfan84 on March 05, 2013, 06:56:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u69SCU79_O0

Linked above is an interesting take which begins with Danny Ainge's opinion on whether Michael Jordan is the greatest NBA player of all-time.

Ainge played with Bird, played against Jordan, and is the greatest GM in the league according to many (including BBallTim, if I remember correctly).

Worth note, he pretty much states exactly my opinion on the topic.  Magic, Barkley, and Kenny follow, so feel free to skip their opinions if they don't interest you.  Ainge begins the video and makes his opinion clear.  Ainge points out his defensive prowess and also argues that he made other players better, a frequent knock on MJ.

It isn't just "ESPN hype fans" and talking heads who like Jordan, as some have suggested. Plenty of scouts, GMs, players, coaches, and people with great basketball knowledge prefer Mike to Larry (and everyone else).

Ainge chimes in to begin the video and again at the 2:15 mark.  Add Danny Ainge to the list of people who think Michael Jordan is better than Larry.

Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter.  Interesting that so many from those teams that beat him early on agree.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: wayupnorth on March 05, 2013, 06:56:52 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell is the greatest basketball player of all time. Period.

He's a smart guy, he was successful in college, olympics and won as a rookie. Yep, he had HOF teammates, but he made them better because he was the most intelligent guy on court. He was able to contain the most dominant basketball player of all time, prime Wilt Chamberlain. Bill and Wilt were world-class athletes, just as good if not better than MJ.

You're right comparing MJ to LeBron, two overhyped stars who are great players, both into top-10 all-time discussion. LeBron has a more complete game, but Jordan was a better defender. Both were good enough to get media attention in their early years, yet not good enough to beat their rivals. The difference is Jordan had to deal with Celtics/Lakers/Pistons, while the only great teams LeBron had to deal with is the Spurs and the Celtics. Great teams, still not good enough to compare to those 80s teams.

Both are very lucky. Jordan was lucky because of Bird/McHale/Bias/Reggie for the Celtics, Magic for the Lakers, Sampson for the Rockets had unlucky career endings, and the Pistons declined after their back-to-back titles.  LBJ is lucky because of KG's knee injury (Celtics 3-peat without that), and the Spurs are too old.

And both have taken advantage of ESPN/Nike/Stern new era of NBA. Star calls, media attention and endorsements. But Jordan was able to win a lot, while LeBron still has to prove he can win multiple titles.

Larry Bird was a comparable level to MJ, only because of MJ's defense and athleticism which helped him to be a great player. They share the All-time greats 2nd tier with Magic and Kareem, but they're half a step below Wilt (who had to deal with the Celtics) and two and a half steps below Bill Russell, absolute GOAT on and off the court, incredible player, great coach and huge personality.

I wish the Celtics get Larry Legend to work for them, he's also a great basketball mind, like Russell and unlike Jordan, who has shown little basketball knowledge in his time in Washington and Charlotte. Maybe Pippen was terribly underrated, because he was a better defender but all the credit went always to MJ.

Of course, if Bias can play for the 1987 Celtics, maybe McHale can rest to heal his foot, taking some weight off Larry's back, and the 1987-1988 Celtics with healthy McHale and Bird start a multiple title streak with Bias and Reggie entering their prime as champions. Then MJ (or the Detroit Pistons) is not another guy, but maybe a one time champion, maybe two.

Another interesting what if is, if Bill Russell had been drafted in the 80s, the kids would wear Air Russells. Of course, that means the 60s Celtics would've been "another team", so I'm fine with Air Jordans or Air LeBrons.

I guess you beat me to it!

TP!
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: wayupnorth on March 05, 2013, 06:59:38 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

While I personally would take Bill RUssell 100/100 when starting a new team, I said that mostly to make the point that just because YOU think that is the case does not make it true.

This is a very subjective topic and NO ONE can ever be right, because ther IS no definate answer.

You are always right though, so my opinion is clearly a joke, because it is not yours.

You could not prove that Russell was NOT the greatest of all time, no matter how much you "know" otherwise.

Are you always so arrogant, or is it just on the net?
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: EJPLAYA on March 05, 2013, 07:02:51 PM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

First of all, we are a better team with Rondo sitting on the bench. It's a fact. This team would be legit contenders with Stockton on the floor instead of Rondo.

  If it's a fact that we're a better team without Rondo then barring major injury we'll be playing in the finals. Get back to me when that happens.

I watched Isaiah very closely and he is the one exception to the rule, however I would also argue that they won 2 championships with him only because of their nasty defense, not his scoring prowess.

  If you don't think Isiah was a great scorer then you didn't watch him closely. He's also far from the one exception to the rule. KJ, CP3, Tiny were also great scorers and that's without giving it a moment's thought.

The other thought is that if you don't think that Stockton ever took over and carried them in games then you clearly didn't watch Stockton. Just ask Barkley about him putting him out of the series when he was with Houston. Stockton had tons of games where he stepped in and scored big. You clearly were "watching" him in the box scores versus seeing him play much.

  Okay, so we've gone from "good point guards don't take over and carry teams" to "Stockton took over games and carried teams". And as for Stockton scoring big, he had 7 career playoff games where he scored 25 or more points. Rondo has 8.

KJ and CP3 haven't won jack. Tiny isn't in ANYONE'S argument as one of the great PG's of all time and without Larry also wouldn't have won jack. He wasn't the man. Good player, not in the conversation with Stockton or Magic or Isaiah.

Don't misquote me. I said that when needed Stockton COULD step in and carry the team if needed. Rondo on the other hand thinks it is his ROLE to carry us and that we are better when he does it. Not true, but he thinks that.

I said that Stockton was the best TRUE pg of all time. The stats show that. The most important stats of a PG are assists and steals. No one else is close.

  Don't misquote yourself. You said a true pg doesn't take over and carry teams. Are you claiming that CP isn't a true pg? If not, why not?

  You also said Stockton had "tons of games" when he took over and scored big. Now you're trying to back away from that obviously false claim.

  Lastly, the stats don't show that Stockton was the best "true pg" (a term meant to exclude the obviously better pg Magic) ever, it shows he was in the conversation. His average game might have been better than any other pg ever, but his best play didn't measure up to the best play of other top point guards.
I know you just love to argue BBALL TIM and I was tempted to go through all his games to show you in addition to the 7 you claim he had in playoff games. Since he played in over 1500 games it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say the guy had TONS of games where he took over and carried the team. Then I realized one thing. Why am I arguing about something so stupid. The guy is a Hall of Famer, Career leader by far all time in assists and steals. For you to say he just had a lot of AVERAGE games through his career is so absurd it isn't even worth continuing. You're arguing the sky isn't blue. Just to argue... Go sell that nonsense somewhere else.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 07:07:35 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

While I personally would take Bill RUssell 100/100 when starting a new team, I said that mostly to make the point that just because YOU think that is the case does not make it true.

This is a very subjective topic and NO ONE can ever be right, because ther IS no definate answer.

You are always right though, so my opinion is clearly a joke, because it is not yours.

You could not prove that Russell was NOT the greatest of all time, no matter how much you "know" otherwise.

Are you always so arrogant, or is it just on the net?

Whoa whoa whoa, I really thought it was a joke, sheesh. Even tho I think picking russell over jordan is borderline insanity I still respect your opinion big guy.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: CelticsFan9 on March 05, 2013, 07:29:51 PM
Personally, I'd take Jordan over Russell because I feel like he'd dominate the way he did in ANY  era.

Russell, in my opinion, would not have been as great mainly due to his size.  Don't get me wrong, he'd still be a great defender, but I think being a 6'9" center, even in today's league, would be a bit of a disadvantage.

However, having watched multiple Russell clips (I wasn't alive when he was playing), if any player could have found a way to adapt, despite going against all odds, it'd be him.

That's one of the great things about both Jordan and Russell: they had that same scary competitiveness that allowed them to ruthlessly dominate and win.

If I were to create a list of the greatest players ever, these two would be the first names I'd write down.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: wayupnorth on March 05, 2013, 07:30:48 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

While I personally would take Bill RUssell 100/100 when starting a new team, I said that mostly to make the point that just because YOU think that is the case does not make it true.

This is a very subjective topic and NO ONE can ever be right, because ther IS no definate answer.

You are always right though, so my opinion is clearly a joke, because it is not yours.

You could not prove that Russell was NOT the greatest of all time, no matter how much you "know" otherwise.

Are you always so arrogant, or is it just on the net?

Whoa whoa whoa, I really thought it was a joke, sheesh. Even tho I think picking russell over jordan is borderline insanity I still respect your opinion big guy.

Borderline insanity? A guy who was so heady about the game, he won two championships as a player coach. I would bet anything Jordan couldn't do that, because he used fear to motivate his teammates.

Ever read the book, "The Jordan Rules"?

Do you think Bill Russell every froze out his teammates like Jordan would?

Jordan is a petulant whiner, who got away with so many things. Like the famous buzzer beater against the Jazz, CLEAR push off.

He does not have half the heart, desire, intelligence or mettle that Russell had.

11>6. This was in an era with Petit, Baylor, Wilt, West, etc.

LOL at the person who said that Stockton and Malone would have won at least three championships if "Jordan wasn't the best player ever".

They only made the finals, twice and they are in a different conference. What, did they get scared of having to play Jordan in the finals, so they just didn't go?

Wow.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: wayupnorth on March 05, 2013, 07:32:25 PM
Personally, I'd take Jordan over Russell because I feel like he'd dominate the way he did in ANY  era.

Russell, in my opinion, would not have been as great mainly due to his size.  Don't get me wrong, he'd still be a great defender, but I think being a 6'9" center, even in today's league, would be a bit of a disadvantage.

However, having watched multiple Russell clips (I wasn't alive when he was playing), if any player could have found a way to adapt, despite going against all odds, it'd be him.

That's one of the great things about both Jordan and Russell: they had that same scary competitiveness that allowed them to ruthlessly dominate and win.

If I were to create a list of the greatest players ever, these two would be the first names I'd write down.

Ben Wallace says whats up.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: LarBrd33 on March 05, 2013, 07:35:17 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

  If Durant wasn't in the league (or never wins a title) then LeBron would be similar to MJ, struggling to win in the postseason until Kobe/KG/Shaq/TD were past their prime and having great success when there's no superstars to challenge him.
So I guess the crux of your argument is that Jordan wouldn't have won as many titles had his prime overlapped with Magic and Bird's prime.   You know, I'm actually not going to disagree with you there man.  BUt I tell you what... Magic and bird wouldn't have won as many titles had their prime overlapped with the mid-90s Bulls... so it goes both ways.

I probably take 86 Celtics over 96 Bulls, but it would be a [dang] good match-up.  And I pity any team that had to face off against Shaq at his apex. 

I think LeBron hasn't yet reached his top level.  He could theoretically rattle off a string of titles here.  He's got another 8 or so years to be a contender.  So I can't yet really debate where LeBron's greatest team ranks against the Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/KG era.  I think that's my point... you can't compare 1985 Jordan's Bulls to 1985 Bird's Celtics and leave at that.  You can't compare 2008 LeBron's Cavs to 2008 KG's Celtics and leave it at that.  1985 wasn't the best of Jordan and we've yet to see the best of LeBron James. 
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 07:41:26 PM
Although they were mentioned in here as a side note, there isn't enough credit given to Stockton and Malone in these comments about Jordan not facing greats. I am assuming most were not old enough to have seen them actually playing, but they were both arguably (not necessarily actually, but arguably) the greatest players of all time at their position. I think John Stockton is without a doubt the greatest "true" point guard in NBA history. Will likely be the Assist leader and Steals leader for good. He is so far in front. Karl Malone was also amazing. Second all time in Points. (would have likely caught Kareem had he not gone to LA to chase a title) 6th all time in rebounds. 10th all time in steals.

To see this thread talking about Jordan not having any competition during his years... Had Jordan not been the greatest player of all time, Stockton and Malone would likely have had 3 rings on their fingers.

  Stockton and Malone only made it to the finals twice that I can recall. I saw Stockton play and there's no possible way he was close to as good as Magic. I personally thought that Stockton was somewhat overrated. He was very good and very consistent but he didn't really have that extra gear that great players have.
Overrated?! Are you kidding?! I am sure you must not have been paying attention. Here are the facts:

19,711 career pts. as a non-scoring PG (2000 shy of Larry Bird), 15,806 assists (#1 all time and HALF AGAIN as many as Magic's 10k) 3265 steals (almost TWICE as many as Magic's 1724) 51.5% career FG % (better than Magic's) , 83% career FT%.

His numbers dwarf Magic's. I have never considered Magic a true PG. He was an everything player and brought the ball up the floor. Yes he was one of the greatest BASKETBALL players of all time. No doubting that. He wasn't though really a true PG. Stockton was the prototypical PG that was so far away from being "overrated" that it isn't even funny. How anyone could call him overrated is unthinkable.

  Yes, Stockton played at a very high level for a very long time and his career stats are very impressive. I don't dispute that at all. I just don't think he was a "take over a game and carry your team" kind of player.

A true PG doesn't "take over a game and carry your team". He leads the team and gets players with the ball in their hands in the right spots so they can be effective. (assist leader). He puts pressure on the opponents ball handler to make it more difficult for them to score. (steals leader). Take over PG's don't win. Since Rondo has been a "take over" PG we haven't won anything.

  First of all we've won as much with Rondo as a "take over" pg as Stockton ever did in his career. Secondly if you think a true point guard never takes over a game and carries his team then you must not know much at all about Isiah Thomas.

First of all, we are a better team with Rondo sitting on the bench. It's a fact. This team would be legit contenders with Stockton on the floor instead of Rondo.

  If it's a fact that we're a better team without Rondo then barring major injury we'll be playing in the finals. Get back to me when that happens.

I watched Isaiah very closely and he is the one exception to the rule, however I would also argue that they won 2 championships with him only because of their nasty defense, not his scoring prowess.

  If you don't think Isiah was a great scorer then you didn't watch him closely. He's also far from the one exception to the rule. KJ, CP3, Tiny were also great scorers and that's without giving it a moment's thought.

The other thought is that if you don't think that Stockton ever took over and carried them in games then you clearly didn't watch Stockton. Just ask Barkley about him putting him out of the series when he was with Houston. Stockton had tons of games where he stepped in and scored big. You clearly were "watching" him in the box scores versus seeing him play much.

  Okay, so we've gone from "good point guards don't take over and carry teams" to "Stockton took over games and carried teams". And as for Stockton scoring big, he had 7 career playoff games where he scored 25 or more points. Rondo has 8.

KJ and CP3 haven't won jack. Tiny isn't in ANYONE'S argument as one of the great PG's of all time and without Larry also wouldn't have won jack. He wasn't the man. Good player, not in the conversation with Stockton or Magic or Isaiah.

Don't misquote me. I said that when needed Stockton COULD step in and carry the team if needed. Rondo on the other hand thinks it is his ROLE to carry us and that we are better when he does it. Not true, but he thinks that.

I said that Stockton was the best TRUE pg of all time. The stats show that. The most important stats of a PG are assists and steals. No one else is close.

  Don't misquote yourself. You said a true pg doesn't take over and carry teams. Are you claiming that CP isn't a true pg? If not, why not?

  You also said Stockton had "tons of games" when he took over and scored big. Now you're trying to back away from that obviously false claim.

  Lastly, the stats don't show that Stockton was the best "true pg" (a term meant to exclude the obviously better pg Magic) ever, it shows he was in the conversation. His average game might have been better than any other pg ever, but his best play didn't measure up to the best play of other top point guards.
I know you just love to argue BBALL TIM and I was tempted to go through all his games to show you in addition to the 7 you claim he had in playoff games. Since he played in over 1500 games it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say the guy had TONS of games where he took over and carried the team. Then I realized one thing. Why am I arguing about something so stupid. The guy is a Hall of Famer, Career leader by far all time in assists and steals. For you to say he just had a lot of AVERAGE games through his career is so absurd it isn't even worth continuing. You're arguing the sky isn't blue. Just to argue... Go sell that nonsense somewhere else.

  No, you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that an average game for Stockton might be better than the average game for any other point guard. In other words, a typical game from Stockton would be better than a typical game from Thomas. I wasn't saying that Stockton was a pedestrian player. But I was also pointing out that a great game (or part of a game) was better than a great game (or part of a game) for Stockton.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: LarBrd33 on March 05, 2013, 07:45:01 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell is the greatest basketball player of all time. Period.

He's a smart guy, he was successful in college, olympics and won as a rookie. Yep, he had HOF teammates, but he made them better because he was the most intelligent guy on court. He was able to contain the most dominant basketball player of all time, prime Wilt Chamberlain. Bill and Wilt were world-class athletes, just as good if not better than MJ.

You're right comparing MJ to LeBron, two overhyped stars who are great players, both into top-10 all-time discussion. LeBron has a more complete game, but Jordan was a better defender. Both were good enough to get media attention in their early years, yet not good enough to beat their rivals. The difference is Jordan had to deal with Celtics/Lakers/Pistons, while the only great teams LeBron had to deal with is the Spurs and the Celtics. Great teams, still not good enough to compare to those 80s teams.

Both are very lucky. Jordan was lucky because of Bird/McHale/Bias/Reggie for the Celtics, Magic for the Lakers, Sampson for the Rockets had unlucky career endings, and the Pistons declined after their back-to-back titles.  LBJ is lucky because of KG's knee injury (Celtics 3-peat without that), and the Spurs are too old.

And both have taken advantage of ESPN/Nike/Stern new era of NBA. Star calls, media attention and endorsements. But Jordan was able to win a lot, while LeBron still has to prove he can win multiple titles.

Larry Bird was a comparable level to MJ, only because of MJ's defense and athleticism which helped him to be a great player. They share the All-time greats 2nd tier with Magic and Kareem, but they're half a step below Wilt (who had to deal with the Celtics) and two and a half steps below Bill Russell, absolute GOAT on and off the court, incredible player, great coach and huge personality.

I wish the Celtics get Larry Legend to work for them, he's also a great basketball mind, like Russell and unlike Jordan, who has shown little basketball knowledge in his time in Washington and Charlotte. Maybe Pippen was terribly underrated, because he was a better defender but all the credit went always to MJ.

Of course, if Bias can play for the 1987 Celtics, maybe McHale can rest to heal his foot, taking some weight off Larry's back, and the 1987-1988 Celtics with healthy McHale and Bird start a multiple title streak with Bias and Reggie entering their prime as champions. Then MJ (or the Detroit Pistons) is not another guy, but maybe a one time champion, maybe two.

Another interesting what if is, if Bill Russell had been drafted in the 80s, the kids would wear Air Russells. Of course, that means the 60s Celtics would've been "another team", so I'm fine with Air Jordans or Air LeBrons.
It's a slippery slope and I'm not touching it, because Russell is sacred here.  It would ping-pong back and forth... Russell being the same size of Josh Smith... how would Russell compete with someone the same size of Shaq?  But then someone would point out that Wilt wasn't all that smaller than Shaq either.  And then someone will bring up how had Kareem played in Russell's day it would have been a different story... and then someone will argue that Russell was the greatest winner of all time and would have found a way.

So I'll just say Jordan was the best basketball player of the past 40 years.  He wasn't overrated.  Dude was dominant.  If it makes you feel better, I'll say he's the most dominant guard of all time... since big men traditionally win titles in this league.

Fwiw, Jordan couldn't do it alone, though.  And I think his experiences helped shape how dominant he ultimately became.  If I was to go back in time and had the #1 pick the 1984 draft... I still probably take Hakeem.  Hakeem was guaranteed success.  Jordan needed the right set of circumstances to reach the basketball-god level he ultimately reached.  I'd take Jordan in his prime over just about anyone, though.  He was unreal.  Just unreal. 
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 07:46:34 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 07:51:06 PM

Ainge played with Bird, played against Jordan, and is the greatest GM in the league according to many (including BBallTim, if I remember correctly).


  Cool. My own stalker. Thanks for caring.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: wayupnorth on March 05, 2013, 07:59:51 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

lol

tp
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 08:02:44 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: wayupnorth on March 05, 2013, 08:08:20 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Roy H. on March 05, 2013, 08:09:27 PM

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

Do you have a link for that?  I'd be interested to see what numbers you're referencing.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 08:11:47 PM

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

Do you have a link for that?  I'd be interested to see what numbers you're referencing.

Its actually a video. I can find It later if you want.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 08:14:08 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

  If Durant wasn't in the league (or never wins a title) then LeBron would be similar to MJ, struggling to win in the postseason until Kobe/KG/Shaq/TD were past their prime and having great success when there's no superstars to challenge him.
So I guess the crux of your argument is that Jordan wouldn't have won as many titles had his prime overlapped with Magic and Bird's prime.   You know, I'm actually not going to disagree with you there man.  BUt I tell you what... Magic and bird wouldn't have won as many titles had their prime overlapped with the mid-90s Bulls... so it goes both ways.

  The 90s Bulls would have probably beaten those late 80s Lakers teams, but if Bird was healthy they'd have been watching the finals on tv. IMO the only reason MJ is seen as better than Bird or Magic is the lack of a worthy opponent in his prime.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 08:16:38 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 08:20:10 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

  So, wait, you looked up the stats (points, assists and rebounds) of the player that's widely seen as the best defensive player *ever* and decided that he shouldn't be mvp of the finals? Even you must see the flaw in that logic. If you're going to start your post with "you're better than that" you shouldn't end it with a doozy like that.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: wayupnorth on March 05, 2013, 08:21:37 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

No matter how you try and slice it, Russell is just a far better overall better basketball player than Jordan.

Seriously.

Just you because you (and ESPN) believe something, doesn't mean it is true.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 08:21:55 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

  Just out of curiosity, how many games did you see Russell play in?
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 08:24:02 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

  So, wait, you looked up the stats (points, assists and rebounds) of the player that's widely seen as the best defensive player *ever* and decided that he shouldn't be mvp of the finals? Even you must see the flaw in that logic. If you're going to start your post with "you're better than that" you shouldn't end it with a doozy like that.

Hey tim, remember when I said "You use stats when it backs your argument but dismiss them when they don't". Thanks for proving my point again lol. How many finals mvps go to players that don't dominate the game on the offensive end?
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 08:26:02 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

  Just out of curiosity, how many games did you see Russell play in?

I wasn't alive back then but I saw alot of games, don't know how many.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 08:30:31 PM
Also when I said "You're better than that" That was more of a compliment than a diss. The second half of the game is about to start tho so I'm going back to the gamethread!
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: wayupnorth on March 05, 2013, 08:32:31 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

  So, wait, you looked up the stats (points, assists and rebounds) of the player that's widely seen as the best defensive player *ever* and decided that he shouldn't be mvp of the finals? Even you must see the flaw in that logic. If you're going to start your post with "you're better than that" you shouldn't end it with a doozy like that.

Hey tim, remember when I said "You use stats when it backs your argument but dismiss them when they don't". Thanks for proving my point again lol. How many finals mvps go to players that don't dominate the game on the offensive end?

Seriously? You use offensive stats to try and prove how bad Bill Russell is.

Are you even aware of what he is known for? Or are you simply out for a nice sTROLL?
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 08:35:44 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

  So, wait, you looked up the stats (points, assists and rebounds) of the player that's widely seen as the best defensive player *ever* and decided that he shouldn't be mvp of the finals? Even you must see the flaw in that logic. If you're going to start your post with "you're better than that" you shouldn't end it with a doozy like that.

Hey tim, remember when I said "You use stats when it backs your argument but dismiss them when they don't". Thanks for proving my point again lol. How many finals mvps go to players that don't dominate the game on the offensive end?

Seriously? You use offensive stats to try and prove how bad Bill Russell is.

Are you even aware of what he is known for? Or are you simply out for a nice sTROLL?

Nobody ever said russell was bad. I said putting him on jordans level is insane. The fact that you can't even use offensive numbers when talking about russell says it all lol.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Roy H. on March 05, 2013, 08:42:51 PM

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

Do you have a link for that?  I'd be interested to see what numbers you're referencing.

Its actually a video. I can find It later if you want.

Yeah, that would be cool.  It's hard to find box scores from before the mid-80s.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 08:45:40 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

  So, wait, you looked up the stats (points, assists and rebounds) of the player that's widely seen as the best defensive player *ever* and decided that he shouldn't be mvp of the finals? Even you must see the flaw in that logic. If you're going to start your post with "you're better than that" you shouldn't end it with a doozy like that.

Hey tim, remember when I said "You use stats when it backs your argument but dismiss them when they don't". Thanks for proving my point again lol. How many finals mvps go to players that don't dominate the game on the offensive end?

  Sigh. I didn't say that the stats were meaningless, but they don't measure what they don't measure. I've never heard a single person who actually saw those Celts teams play name anyone besides Russell as the best or most valuable player on those teams. Using only stats to evaluate players that you've never seen is fairly dangerous, using only stats to evaluate players you've never seen when everything you've heard about that player screams that the stats don't tell the whole story seems silly.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 08:47:25 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

  Just out of curiosity, how many games did you see Russell play in?

I wasn't alive back then but I saw alot of games, don't know how many.

  So if you've seen a lot of Russell's games, how many blocks a game would you estimate he averaged?
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Who on March 05, 2013, 08:49:28 PM

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

Do you have a link for that?  I'd be interested to see what numbers you're referencing.

Its actually a video. I can find It later if you want.

Yeah, that would be cool.  It's hard to find box scores from before the mid-80s.

They have box scores and series averages on basketball-reference.com

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1965_finals.html

They only seem to have the Finals up until the mid to late 70s. Then they have separate series too. Conference finals. Second round. First rounds.

Anyway, you can see what Bill Russell averaged each year in the Finals there. Or anyone else or any other playoff series you are interested in.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: wayupnorth on March 05, 2013, 08:54:11 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

  So, wait, you looked up the stats (points, assists and rebounds) of the player that's widely seen as the best defensive player *ever* and decided that he shouldn't be mvp of the finals? Even you must see the flaw in that logic. If you're going to start your post with "you're better than that" you shouldn't end it with a doozy like that.

Hey tim, remember when I said "You use stats when it backs your argument but dismiss them when they don't". Thanks for proving my point again lol. How many finals mvps go to players that don't dominate the game on the offensive end?

Seriously? You use offensive stats to try and prove how bad Bill Russell is.

Are you even aware of what he is known for? Or are you simply out for a nice sTROLL?

Nobody ever said russell was bad. I said putting him on jordans level is insane. The fact that you can't even use offensive numbers when talking about russell says it all lol.

Fair enough, I implied that, and you never did, so I apologize about that.

I never said you couldn't use them, I meant that they should not be what you base your opinions off of.

Now, if they kept record of blocks (or steals?) I would say that is something to look at. But by focusing a review of Russell on statistics, you overlook the very things that made him the great, great player that he was.

I guess the point I have been trying to make to you, isn't that Russell is better than Jordan (I firmly believe it, but understand, from experience, that is almost like a conversation on the death penalty, in that the lines are drawn already), but that just because you are of the belief of something, that does not mean it is so.


Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 08:56:03 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

  Just out of curiosity, how many games did you see Russell play in?

I wasn't alive back then but I saw alot of games, don't know how many.

  So if you've seen a lot of Russell's games, how many blocks a game would you estimate he averaged?

Um, not sure, alot. Seven? He blocked alot of shots that's all I know for sure. Between 6-9 ? Maybe? Lol Lets just say alot.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: BballTim on March 05, 2013, 09:08:58 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

  Just out of curiosity, how many games did you see Russell play in?

I wasn't alive back then but I saw alot of games, don't know how many.

  So if you've seen a lot of Russell's games, how many blocks a game would you estimate he averaged?

Um, not sure, alot. Seven? He blocked alot of shots that's all I know for sure. Between 6-9 ? Maybe? Lol Lets just say alot.

  So 2-3 times what anyone's ever averaged? That's pretty impressive. I've heard estimates in the 8-10 range which sounds crazy, but so does 50 points or 27 rebounds a game.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 05, 2013, 09:17:57 PM
Here's the deal.  Jordan was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.
But for Jordan's first three years in the league (1984-1987), but Bulls were not even a .500 team.  It's a fact people don't pay much attention to.  They won 38, 30 and 40 games.  But all three years, having a below .500 record was enough for the Bulls to make the playoffs with a low seed.  Naturally, the Boston Celtics (at their apex) were better than a below .500 team.

If the internet had existed in the same capacity during JOrdan's early years, the media would have ripped him apart.  His first 3 years he was out in the first round... his team wasn't even good enough to get over .500.  It wasn't until Pippen arrived that they even turned into a 50 win team.  Then of course there were the 3 next years that they were owned by the Pistons.

It's kinda like LeBron right now.  LeBron finally won his first championship coincidentally at the same age as Jordan when he won his first title.  LeBron very well could go on to win multiple titles... and then decades from now someone will post a video showing how Paul Pierce "owned" LeBron James...   Those Cavs teammates stunk about as bad as those early Bulls teammates surrounding Jordan.  It doesn't take away from what Jordan eventually accomplished and what LeBron is potentially about to accomplish.

Jordan was amazing during those 6 title years.  To be fair, when jordan first retired, the Bulls managed to win 55 games without him with Pippen at the forefront... arguably a better supporting cast than LeBron has now.   Still... Jordan was incredible at his absolute best and deserving of all the praise he received.

Bill Russell was the greatest player of all time.  Bottom line, end of story.

Lol bill russell. I know you're joking but still lol.

  I don't know whether Russell is the best ever (before my time) but at worst he's in the conversation with a few other players. I don't see how you could make a case that anyone's *clearly* better than someone who led teams to 11 titles in 13 years. If MJ had done that people would have shrines to him in their back yards.

Oh tim, you're better than this man. 11 titles is impressive. How many teams were in the league then tho? Also, how tall were the guys matched up with russell? For him to have a clear height advantage and athletic advantage its almost a diss on him that he couldn't be more dominate on the offensive end.

In todays NBA he would obviously be even worse. Also, russell is known for his defense and rebounding but is limited offensively.

He can't take over a game on BOTH ends of the court like MJ. Of course if MJ did that people would have shrines of him. It would have been ALOT more impressive if MJ did that in the 90's.

I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

That is your problem. The game is about far more than stats, and no body proves that more than Russell.

How did you quantify his defense while you were looking at those box scores?

Oh, you didn't?

EDIT: Wilt, who Russell had to play against and was an athletic freak, was better than ANYONE Jordan ever toed up against.

Oh I agree, the game is about more than just stats. I have actually been preaching that lately. That being said no matter how you try to slice it, Jordan is just a far overall better basketball player than russell.

Especially when you take everything into consideration. If you wanna talk strictly winning then yeah russell over jordan.

  Just out of curiosity, how many games did you see Russell play in?

I wasn't alive back then but I saw alot of games, don't know how many.

  So if you've seen a lot of Russell's games, how many blocks a game would you estimate he averaged?

Um, not sure, alot. Seven? He blocked alot of shots that's all I know for sure. Between 6-9 ? Maybe? Lol Lets just say alot.

  So 2-3 times what anyone's ever averaged? That's pretty impressive. I've heard estimates in the 8-10 range which sounds crazy, but so does 50 points or 27 rebounds a game.

Oh for sure, I'm not saying russell is some bum lol. I got him in the top 10 of all time.
Title: Re: Larry Bird schools Michael Jordan
Post by: ejk3489 on March 05, 2013, 09:40:11 PM
I actually just looked at the numbers not long ago of bill russell and those celtics in the finals. Out of those 11 championships if finals mvps existed back then russell would have had 2 maybe 3 at most.

I find this very hard to believe for a guy who was the cornerstone of 11 championships and was the league MVP 5 times.

I mean, the award was named after him for a reason...