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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: celtics2 on March 02, 2013, 09:19:25 AM

Title: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: celtics2 on March 02, 2013, 09:19:25 AM
Amazing Celtics. They are definitely a force of sorts if they can keep the core healthy. Green has been showing signs of coming out of his year off slumber. I'll leave it to the Purists to determine his real value to the position. Right now he's becoming a force for us. I really enjoy them w/o Rondo. He was a drag on the team mentally. I know for sure if he were ready today Doc would start him and we'd fall back into the Black Hole again. Take your time Rondo......

Rondo:I don't think he was ever reigned in enough. Doc let him run wild. Under different supervision he'd be one of the top 5 point guards in the NBA.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: esel1000 on March 02, 2013, 09:22:50 AM
If you really think this team is better without Rondo you're fooling yourself... This is a league of stars, we'll see if there's a thread like this in the playoffs
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: saltlover on March 02, 2013, 09:28:41 AM
If my KG-hurts-the-team satire thread got locked, then this one better get locked too.

It seems like people on this blog pout a lot more than Rondo ever did.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 09:31:10 AM
If you really think this team is better without Rondo you're fooling yourself... This is a league of stars, we'll see if there's a thread like this in the playoffs

This league is a league of stars. That being said, you can't just stick any star on any team and expect them to be magically better. Unless that star is on the level of lebron james or kevin durant. Some guys playing styles just don't fit well with certain teams. Not saying rondo doesn't fit with this team *Debatable* I'm just saying.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 09:33:54 AM
I still think rondo will be missed in the playoffs but if jeff green can play like an allstar we have a shot.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: droopdog7 on March 02, 2013, 09:47:17 AM
What's our record without Rondo?  I have always said I'd wait the 38 games plus the playoffs to evaluate but it can't be ignored that a case is being made.  And again, its not about dumping rondo for nothing.  Honestly, I wish that DA could have any of the speculated deals using rondo before now.  I think he knew this all along.  Can you imagine having Curry on this team?
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: TripleOT on March 02, 2013, 09:50:01 AM
TO the OP:  Did you start threads like this when the Celtics were losing to Charlotte and Portland? Boston is winning their home games without Rondo.  NBA teams win home games.  Boston is 3-4 on the road since he went down, and probably would have won in Portland and Charlotte with Rondo healthy.

This whole "Rondo Pouting" stuff is foolishness.  The guy is great at running a team.  Now that he's not there, others are expanding their role and the Celtics are winning games.  If these players took it upon themselves to be more active, instead of waiting for Rondo to set the table for them, they would have been winning with Rondo.

One thing I do agree with the Rondo critics is that he wasn't held to a high standard defensively in the regular season. Pressuring the ball defensively has been a key reason why the Celtics have been winning.  Maybe when Rondo returns, he and Doc will have a different perspective on how much energy he can expend on the defensive end and still run the team.     

The regular season is a marathon, and teams, good and bad, go on runs, based on schedule, health, etc.  Let's see how the Cs do in a playoff series before we make and grand pronouncements about how the Celtics are better off without Rajon Rondo. 
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Celtics4ever on March 02, 2013, 09:57:27 AM
If you think we are a better team without Rondo, I have some moon real estate for sale real cheap...
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: jambr380 on March 02, 2013, 09:57:43 AM
Amazing Celtics. They are definitely a force of sorts if they can keep the core healthy. Green has been showing signs of coming out of his year off slumber. I'll leave it to the Purists to determine his real value to the position. Right now he's becoming a force for us. I really enjoy them w/o Rondo. He was a drag on the team mentally. I know for sure if he were ready today Doc would start him and we'd fall back into the Black Hole again. Take your time Rondo......

Rondo:I don't think he was ever reigned in enough. Doc let him run wild. Under different supervision he'd be one of the top 5 point guards in the NBA.

You don't think he is currently in the top 5? I always wonder about these skewed visions of Rondo. How quickly people forget...

Just because other players finally stepped up and are playing better [Green - who is coming off of a life threatening situation and Bradley - who had just come back before Rondo went down], doesn't mean that we are better without him. It just doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 09:59:39 AM
Amazing Celtics. They are definitely a force of sorts if they can keep the core healthy. Green has been showing signs of coming out of his year off slumber. I'll leave it to the Purists to determine his real value to the position. Right now he's becoming a force for us. I really enjoy them w/o Rondo. He was a drag on the team mentally. I know for sure if he were ready today Doc would start him and we'd fall back into the Black Hole again. Take your time Rondo......

Rondo:I don't think he was ever reigned in enough. Doc let him run wild. Under different supervision he'd be one of the top 5 point guards in the NBA.

  Yes, hopefully we'd fall back into the black hole of game 7 of the finals and game 7 of the ecf the last 2 years he was healthy. Although from your perspective I can see why all those playoff wins don't have the cachet of a run of decent play in the middle of a season.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 10:01:47 AM
What's our record without Rondo?  I have always said I'd wait the 38 games plus the playoffs to evaluate but it can't be ignored that a case is being made.  And again, its not about dumping rondo for nothing.  Honestly, I wish that DA could have any of the speculated deals using rondo before now.  I think he knew this all along.  Can you imagine having Curry on this team?

  The evaluation of the team shouldn't end when the playoffs start, it should begin when the playoffs start.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 10:02:13 AM
TO the OP:  Did you start threads like this when the Celtics were losing to Charlotte and Portland? Boston is winning their home games without Rondo.  NBA teams win home games.  Boston is 3-4 on the road since he went down, and probably would have won in Portland and Charlotte with Rondo healthy.

This whole "Rondo Pouting" stuff is foolishness.  The guy is great at running a team.  Now that he's not there, others are expanding their role and the Celtics are winning games.  If these players took it upon themselves to be more active, instead of waiting for Rondo to set the table for them, they would have been winning with Rondo.

One thing I do agree with the Rondo critics is that he wasn't held to a high standard defensively in the regular season. Pressuring the ball defensively has been a key reason why the Celtics have been winning.  Maybe when Rondo returns, he and Doc will have a different perspective on how much energy he can expend on the defensive end and still run the team.     

The regular season is a marathon, and teams, good and bad, go on runs, based on schedule, health, etc.  Let's see how the Cs do in a playoff series before we make and grand pronouncements about how the Celtics are better off without Rajon Rondo.

Definitely wouldn't say PROBABLY. Also that's not their fault. Rondo and doc both demand the ball to be in rondos hands like 95 percent of the time. He calls for the ball the very second someone gets a rebound. Also rondo is known for feeding pierce and KG and sometimes looking past the other guys.

You see it all the time with the lakers. When kobe starts holding the ball and shot jacking the other guys tend to just stand around. You ever try playing basketball with a ball hog? Its not fun. There's no doubt in my mind this team would be better if rondo was healthy and didn't hold the ball every possession for 20 seconds looking for an assist.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: LB3533 on March 02, 2013, 10:09:03 AM
We will need a lot of our guys to "play over their heads" in the playoffs...without Rondo and Sully.

Sorry, but that's just them apples.

I am still pushing and rooting for the team to win it all and I believe they can do it...that's just the nature of a die hard fan.

Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: TripleOT on March 02, 2013, 10:18:12 AM

Definitely wouldn't say PROBABLY. Also that's not their fault. Rondo and doc both demand the ball to be in rondos hands like 95 percent of the time. He calls for the ball the very second someone gets a rebound. Also rondo is known for feeding pierce and KG and sometimes looking past the other guys.

You see it all the time with the lakers. When kobe starts holding the ball and shot jacking the other guys tend to just stand around. You ever try playing basketball with a ball hog? Its not fun. There's no doubt in my mind this team would be better if rondo was healthy and didn't hold the ball every possession for 20 seconds looking for an assist.

Did you just try to compare Rondo, one of the two best set up PGs in the league, to Kobe when he jacks up 28 shots and freezes out the rest of his teammates?   That's lunacy.  A PG focusing too much on setting teammates is a lot different than a gunner hoisting up shot after shot while his teammates stand around.

If you want to argue that the Cs being to Rondo-centric hurt the team because they were easier to defend, because everyone wasn't as engaged as all around players, maybe I'll buy into that, but saying the Celtics players were being freezed out when on the floor with a guy who could get them the ball at any time, better than any other player in the entire league, save CP3, is lunacy. 

I've played with ball hogs, and I've played with pass first set up PGs.  I hated playing with a ball hog, but if he were on, I'd make sure to set picks for him and if he was off, I'd hit the offensive glass.  With the pass hungry PG, I'd make sure I was ready for the ball at all times. Players need to be MORE engaged with Rondo, lest a pass will hit them in the face.     
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: ScottHow on March 02, 2013, 10:19:18 AM
Rondo is becoming one of the most underrated Celtics of all time
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: gpap on March 02, 2013, 10:19:44 AM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: gpap on March 02, 2013, 10:22:20 AM
If you think we are a better team without Rondo, I have some moon real estate for sale real cheap...

What's the mortgage going to cost?
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: gpap on March 02, 2013, 10:26:01 AM

Definitely wouldn't say PROBABLY. Also that's not their fault. Rondo and doc both demand the ball to be in rondos hands like 95 percent of the time. He calls for the ball the very second someone gets a rebound. Also rondo is known for feeding pierce and KG and sometimes looking past the other guys.

You see it all the time with the lakers. When kobe starts holding the ball and shot jacking the other guys tend to just stand around. You ever try playing basketball with a ball hog? Its not fun. There's no doubt in my mind this team would be better if rondo was healthy and didn't hold the ball every possession for 20 seconds looking for an assist.

Did you just try to compare Rondo, one of the two best set up PGs in the league, to Kobe when he jacks up 28 shots and freezes out the rest of his teammates?   That's lunacy.  A PG focusing too much on setting teammates is a lot different than a gunner hoisting up shot after shot while his teammates stand around.

If you want to argue that the Cs being to Rondo-centric hurt the team because they were easier to defend, because everyone wasn't as engaged as all around players, maybe I'll buy into that, but saying the Celtics players were being freezed out when on the floor with a guy who could get them the ball at any time, better than any other player in the entire league, save CP3, is lunacy. 

I've played with ball hogs, and I've played with pass first set up PGs.  I hated playing with a ball hog, but if he were on, I'd make sure to set picks for him and if he was off, I'd hit the offensive glass.  With the pass hungry PG, I'd make sure I was ready for the ball at all times. Players need to be MORE engaged with Rondo, lest a pass will hit them in the face.   

Rondo is not one of the 2 top PG's in the league. I could even argue he's not in the top 10
-CP3
-Westbrook
-Irving
-Deron Williams
-Steve Nash
-Tony Parker
-Derrick Rose
-Steph Curry
-Jason Kidd
-Mike Conley
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: alajet on March 02, 2013, 10:32:10 AM
Well, the most concrete criticism for Rondo could be not giving his 100% to every game. He is coasting through games at times. I don't think this is an attitude you look forward to see in your supposed team leader.
Rondo is in the league of elite PGs. Top 2, Top 5, Top 10, doesn't matter that much. If you aren't a replaceable piece of your team, you are elite. Ranking beyond that isn't really essential.

Aside from that, I don't think we are essentially a better team without him. It's just Jeff and the Captain stepping up big time that makes us winning games at the moment, which is something we didn't have when we had Rondo earlier on.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Vermont Green on March 02, 2013, 10:34:55 AM
TO the OP:  Did you start threads like this when the Celtics were losing to Charlotte and Portland? .... and probably would have won in Portland and Charlotte with Rondo healthy.

With Rondo we lost games to Detroit (2), Phili (2), NO at home, and Sac among others.  The truth is that Rondo's minutes have been replaced with more minutes for Bradley, Lee, and Terry plus now minutes from Jordan Crawford and we are playing as good if not better.  Measure it how every you want, that is just black and white.

This either means that Rondo isn't as good as some think or that Bradley. Lee, Terry, Crawford are just as good as Rondo (or at least make an equal contribution to the team).  This very clearly proven reality seems very hard for people to accept.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 10:39:49 AM

Definitely wouldn't say PROBABLY. Also that's not their fault. Rondo and doc both demand the ball to be in rondos hands like 95 percent of the time. He calls for the ball the very second someone gets a rebound. Also rondo is known for feeding pierce and KG and sometimes looking past the other guys.

You see it all the time with the lakers. When kobe starts holding the ball and shot jacking the other guys tend to just stand around. You ever try playing basketball with a ball hog? Its not fun. There's no doubt in my mind this team would be better if rondo was healthy and didn't hold the ball every possession for 20 seconds looking for an assist.

Did you just try to compare Rondo, one of the two best set up PGs in the league, to Kobe when he jacks up 28 shots and freezes out the rest of his teammates?   That's lunacy.  A PG focusing too much on setting teammates is a lot different than a gunner hoisting up shot after shot while his teammates stand around.

If you want to argue that the Cs being to Rondo-centric hurt the team because they were easier to defend, because everyone wasn't as engaged as all around players, maybe I'll buy into that, but saying the Celtics players were being freezed out when on the floor with a guy who could get them the ball at any time, better than any other player in the entire league, save CP3, is lunacy. 

I've played with ball hogs, and I've played with pass first set up PGs.  I hated playing with a ball hog, but if he were on, I'd make sure to set picks for him and if he was off, I'd hit the offensive glass.  With the pass hungry PG, I'd make sure I was ready for the ball at all times. Players need to be MORE engaged with Rondo, lest a pass will hit them in the face.   

I was hoping you could comprehend my point without saying what you just said, guess not...And yes that's what I was trying to argue. Rondo having the ball every possession for most of the shot clock hurt the team. This team plays better when they play freely not when someone dominates the ball.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: crimson_stallion on March 02, 2013, 10:40:00 AM

Definitely wouldn't say PROBABLY. Also that's not their fault. Rondo and doc both demand the ball to be in rondos hands like 95 percent of the time. He calls for the ball the very second someone gets a rebound. Also rondo is known for feeding pierce and KG and sometimes looking past the other guys.

You see it all the time with the lakers. When kobe starts holding the ball and shot jacking the other guys tend to just stand around. You ever try playing basketball with a ball hog? Its not fun. There's no doubt in my mind this team would be better if rondo was healthy and didn't hold the ball every possession for 20 seconds looking for an assist.

Did you just try to compare Rondo, one of the two best set up PGs in the league, to Kobe when he jacks up 28 shots and freezes out the rest of his teammates?   That's lunacy.  A PG focusing too much on setting teammates is a lot different than a gunner hoisting up shot after shot while his teammates stand around.

If you want to argue that the Cs being to Rondo-centric hurt the team because they were easier to defend, because everyone wasn't as engaged as all around players, maybe I'll buy into that, but saying the Celtics players were being freezed out when on the floor with a guy who could get them the ball at any time, better than any other player in the entire league, save CP3, is lunacy. 

I've played with ball hogs, and I've played with pass first set up PGs.  I hated playing with a ball hog, but if he were on, I'd make sure to set picks for him and if he was off, I'd hit the offensive glass.  With the pass hungry PG, I'd make sure I was ready for the ball at all times. Players need to be MORE engaged with Rondo, lest a pass will hit them in the face.   

Rondo is not one of the 2 top PG's in the league. I could even argue he's not in the top 10
-CP3
-Westbrook
-Irving
-Deron Williams
-Steve Nash
-Tony Parker
-Derrick Rose
-Steph Curry
-Jason Kidd
-Mike Conley

I have more than my share of criticism for Rondo, but that list is garbage

The only guy on that list who is clearly above Rondo talent-wise is CP3.

Nash and Kidd aren't even CLOSE to Rondo's level at this point in their careers, and the rest of the guys on that list are primarilly scoring guards who happen to be decent passers.  Outside of Kidd, Nash, Deron and Paul not one of those guys has ever come close to Rondo as a passer and a playmaker, and three of those four who have (Kidd, Nash, Deron) have gone downhill hard as of late.

Rondo may have his issues (and yes, he has a lot of them) but he's a better POINT GUARD tthan everyone on that list bar Paul.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Vermont Green on March 02, 2013, 10:43:02 AM
What's our record without Rondo?  I have always said I'd wait the 38 games plus the playoffs to evaluate but it can't be ignored that a case is being made.  And again, its not about dumping rondo for nothing.  Honestly, I wish that DA could have any of the speculated deals using rondo before now.  I think he knew this all along.  Can you imagine having Curry on this team?

  The evaluation of the team shouldn't end when the playoffs start, it should begin when the playoffs start.

Yeah, I can see it now, after we lose in the playoffs to Indiana or Miami, the calls will come that "see, we told you so, we would have won if we had Rondo".

It is totally rhetorical to say even though the team is playing better in the regular season without Rondo, that it will definitely be different in the playoffs.  This is rhetorical because there is no way to compile evidence to prove or disprove this.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: saltlover on March 02, 2013, 10:44:11 AM

Definitely wouldn't say PROBABLY. Also that's not their fault. Rondo and doc both demand the ball to be in rondos hands like 95 percent of the time. He calls for the ball the very second someone gets a rebound. Also rondo is known for feeding pierce and KG and sometimes looking past the other guys.

You see it all the time with the lakers. When kobe starts holding the ball and shot jacking the other guys tend to just stand around. You ever try playing basketball with a ball hog? Its not fun. There's no doubt in my mind this team would be better if rondo was healthy and didn't hold the ball every possession for 20 seconds looking for an assist.

Did you just try to compare Rondo, one of the two best set up PGs in the league, to Kobe when he jacks up 28 shots and freezes out the rest of his teammates?   That's lunacy.  A PG focusing too much on setting teammates is a lot different than a gunner hoisting up shot after shot while his teammates stand around.

If you want to argue that the Cs being to Rondo-centric hurt the team because they were easier to defend, because everyone wasn't as engaged as all around players, maybe I'll buy into that, but saying the Celtics players were being freezed out when on the floor with a guy who could get them the ball at any time, better than any other player in the entire league, save CP3, is lunacy. 

I've played with ball hogs, and I've played with pass first set up PGs.  I hated playing with a ball hog, but if he were on, I'd make sure to set picks for him and if he was off, I'd hit the offensive glass.  With the pass hungry PG, I'd make sure I was ready for the ball at all times. Players need to be MORE engaged with Rondo, lest a pass will hit them in the face.   

Rondo is not one of the 2 top PG's in the league. I could even argue he's not in the top 10
-CP3
-Westbrook
-Irving
-Deron Williams
-Steve Nash
-Tony Parker
-Derrick Rose
-Steph Curry
-Jason Kidd
-Mike Conley

lolz.  Jason Kidd is better than Rondo?  You say you can argue that.  Please, go right ahead.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 10:45:03 AM
TO the OP:  Did you start threads like this when the Celtics were losing to Charlotte and Portland? .... and probably would have won in Portland and Charlotte with Rondo healthy.

With Rondo we lost games to Detroit (2), Phili (2), NO at home, and Sac among others.  The truth is that Rondo's minutes have been replaced with more minutes for Bradley, Lee, and Terry plus now minutes from Jordan Crawford and we are playing as good if not better.  Measure it how every you want, that is just black and white.

This either means that Rondo isn't as good as some think or that Bradley. Lee, Terry, Crawford are just as good as Rondo (or at least make an equal contribution to the team).  This very clearly proven reality seems very hard for people to accept.


I think we won't really know about this team until the playoffs. If we somehow beat miami the rondo supporters will lose their minds lol.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: saltlover on March 02, 2013, 10:59:39 AM
TO the OP:  Did you start threads like this when the Celtics were losing to Charlotte and Portland? .... and probably would have won in Portland and Charlotte with Rondo healthy.

With Rondo we lost games to Detroit (2), Phili (2), NO at home, and Sac among others.  The truth is that Rondo's minutes have been replaced with more minutes for Bradley, Lee, and Terry plus now minutes from Jordan Crawford and we are playing as good if not better.  Measure it how every you want, that is just black and white.

This either means that Rondo isn't as good as some think or that Bradley. Lee, Terry, Crawford are just as good as Rondo (or at least make an equal contribution to the team).  This very clearly proven reality seems very hard for people to accept.


I think we won't really know about this team until the playoffs. If we somehow beat miami the rondo supporters will lose their minds lol.

No, I'll be ecstatic.  Shocked as well, but ecstatic.  It won't make me think less of Rondo, however.  Last year we almost beat Miami, and it was pretty much a team of Rondo, KG, and Bass by that point.  Allen was hobbled, Pierce was hobbled, and everyone else was scrubs.  This year's team was supposed to be better, because we would have more depth and health.  It didn't start out well, but Green certainly wasn't at full strength, AB didn't play until early January.  JET has stunk most of the year, with and without Rondo.  Lee's played a little bit better.  Wilcox is heating up.  I like this year's team without Rondo better than last year's playoff team with Rondo, but it's not because of the absence of Rondo.  It's because we have 9 players capable of playing 20 minutes a night.  It's because when KG has an off night like last night, Wilcox is there to step up.  It's because Green on many nights can give us that 6th man quality we lacked last year.  It's because Bradley and Lee wreak havoc on opponents backcourts in ways that would make Ray Allen blush.  None of that was on last year's team, which again, took the Heat to the brink in the conference finals, with Rondo.

The only thing that will make me go crazy are inane threads like this, that are clearly trolling.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 02, 2013, 11:01:04 AM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

Well, I do think that when Rondo does come back, perhaps he needs to grow a bit more and let Paul and others share the ball.

KG is even an elite passer for a big.

Some of that is on Doc....but I'm sure it will all work out.

I bolded your comment there, because one overlooked stat, sadly, is that in that clinching game 6 vs LA in BOS in June 2008, Rajon Rondo quietly flirted with a quadruple double:

21 pts, 7 rebs, 8 assists and SIX steals....all under 32 min.

He played less than Pierce, KG and Ray Allen in that game, too.

He was indeed showing signs of greatness even then, but was overshadowed somewhat by the Big Three.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200806170BOS.html
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Vermont Green on March 02, 2013, 11:02:02 AM

Definitely wouldn't say PROBABLY. Also that's not their fault. Rondo and doc both demand the ball to be in rondos hands like 95 percent of the time. He calls for the ball the very second someone gets a rebound. Also rondo is known for feeding pierce and KG and sometimes looking past the other guys.

You see it all the time with the lakers. When kobe starts holding the ball and shot jacking the other guys tend to just stand around. You ever try playing basketball with a ball hog? Its not fun. There's no doubt in my mind this team would be better if rondo was healthy and didn't hold the ball every possession for 20 seconds looking for an assist.

Did you just try to compare Rondo, one of the two best set up PGs in the league, to Kobe when he jacks up 28 shots and freezes out the rest of his teammates?   That's lunacy.  A PG focusing too much on setting teammates is a lot different than a gunner hoisting up shot after shot while his teammates stand around.

If you want to argue that the Cs being to Rondo-centric hurt the team because they were easier to defend, because everyone wasn't as engaged as all around players, maybe I'll buy into that, but saying the Celtics players were being freezed out when on the floor with a guy who could get them the ball at any time, better than any other player in the entire league, save CP3, is lunacy. 

I've played with ball hogs, and I've played with pass first set up PGs.  I hated playing with a ball hog, but if he were on, I'd make sure to set picks for him and if he was off, I'd hit the offensive glass.  With the pass hungry PG, I'd make sure I was ready for the ball at all times. Players need to be MORE engaged with Rondo, lest a pass will hit them in the face.   

I was hoping you could comprehend my point without saying what you just said, guess not...And yes that's what I was trying to argue. Rondo having the ball every possession for most of the shot clock hurt the team. This team plays better when they play freely not when someone dominates the ball.

Ball hogs are no fun to play with but it is also no fun to play with someone who holds the ball always trying to make the home run pass.  In the group I play with, we seem to have more trouble with the latter.  The result is unnecessary turnovers more often than easy baskets (we are not as good as Rondo obviously).  After the second or third off-the-ball move with the same guy still dribbling around, you get frustrated.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: pearljammer10 on March 02, 2013, 11:05:06 AM
Hey sweet. Another better without rondo thread. Like we haven't heard enough of this nonsense already.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 11:12:58 AM
Rondo is becoming one of the most underrated Celtics of all time

  Hard to disagree with that.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 11:14:23 AM

Definitely wouldn't say PROBABLY. Also that's not their fault. Rondo and doc both demand the ball to be in rondos hands like 95 percent of the time. He calls for the ball the very second someone gets a rebound. Also rondo is known for feeding pierce and KG and sometimes looking past the other guys.

You see it all the time with the lakers. When kobe starts holding the ball and shot jacking the other guys tend to just stand around. You ever try playing basketball with a ball hog? Its not fun. There's no doubt in my mind this team would be better if rondo was healthy and didn't hold the ball every possession for 20 seconds looking for an assist.

Did you just try to compare Rondo, one of the two best set up PGs in the league, to Kobe when he jacks up 28 shots and freezes out the rest of his teammates?   That's lunacy.  A PG focusing too much on setting teammates is a lot different than a gunner hoisting up shot after shot while his teammates stand around.

If you want to argue that the Cs being to Rondo-centric hurt the team because they were easier to defend, because everyone wasn't as engaged as all around players, maybe I'll buy into that, but saying the Celtics players were being freezed out when on the floor with a guy who could get them the ball at any time, better than any other player in the entire league, save CP3, is lunacy. 

I've played with ball hogs, and I've played with pass first set up PGs.  I hated playing with a ball hog, but if he were on, I'd make sure to set picks for him and if he was off, I'd hit the offensive glass.  With the pass hungry PG, I'd make sure I was ready for the ball at all times. Players need to be MORE engaged with Rondo, lest a pass will hit them in the face.   

I was hoping you could comprehend my point without saying what you just said, guess not...And yes that's what I was trying to argue. Rondo having the ball every possession for most of the shot clock hurt the team. This team plays better when they play freely not when someone dominates the ball.

Ball hogs are no fun to play with but it is also no fun to play with someone who holds the ball always trying to make the home run pass.  In the group I play with, we seem to have more trouble with the latter.  The result is unnecessary turnovers more often than easy baskets (we are not as good as Rondo obviously).  After the second or third off-the-ball move with the same guy still dribbling around, you get frustrated.

This is exactly what I meant, thank you lol.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: moiso on March 02, 2013, 11:15:50 AM
I still think rondo will be missed in the playoffs but if jeff green can play like an allstar we have a shot.
Same goes for Shavlick Randolph ;)
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 11:16:06 AM

Definitely wouldn't say PROBABLY. Also that's not their fault. Rondo and doc both demand the ball to be in rondos hands like 95 percent of the time. He calls for the ball the very second someone gets a rebound. Also rondo is known for feeding pierce and KG and sometimes looking past the other guys.

You see it all the time with the lakers. When kobe starts holding the ball and shot jacking the other guys tend to just stand around. You ever try playing basketball with a ball hog? Its not fun. There's no doubt in my mind this team would be better if rondo was healthy and didn't hold the ball every possession for 20 seconds looking for an assist.

Did you just try to compare Rondo, one of the two best set up PGs in the league, to Kobe when he jacks up 28 shots and freezes out the rest of his teammates?   That's lunacy.  A PG focusing too much on setting teammates is a lot different than a gunner hoisting up shot after shot while his teammates stand around.

If you want to argue that the Cs being to Rondo-centric hurt the team because they were easier to defend, because everyone wasn't as engaged as all around players, maybe I'll buy into that, but saying the Celtics players were being freezed out when on the floor with a guy who could get them the ball at any time, better than any other player in the entire league, save CP3, is lunacy. 

I've played with ball hogs, and I've played with pass first set up PGs.  I hated playing with a ball hog, but if he were on, I'd make sure to set picks for him and if he was off, I'd hit the offensive glass.  With the pass hungry PG, I'd make sure I was ready for the ball at all times. Players need to be MORE engaged with Rondo, lest a pass will hit them in the face.   

Rondo is not one of the 2 top PG's in the league. I could even argue he's not in the top 10
-CP3
-Westbrook
-Irving
-Deron Williams
-Steve Nash
-Tony Parker
-Derrick Rose
-Steph Curry
-Jason Kidd
-Mike Conley

  You'd have just as easy a time arguing that he's the best in the league as you would arguing that he's not in the top 10. That list is hilarious. One would assume that you haven't seen Kidd play since 2004 or so and think he's still at that level.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 11:17:29 AM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

Well, I do think that when Rondo does come back, perhaps he needs to grow a bit more and let Paul and others share the ball.

KG is even an elite passer for a big.

Some of that is on Doc....but I'm sure it will all work out.

I bolded your comment there, because one overlooked stat, sadly, is that in that clinching game 6 vs LA in BOS in June 2008, Rajon Rondo quietly flirted with a quadruple double:

21 pts, 7 rebs, 8 assists and SIX steals....all under 32 min.

He played less than Pierce, KG and Ray Allen in that game, too.

He was indeed showing signs of greatness even then, but was overshadowed somewhat by the Big Three.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200806170BOS.html

Those numbers you posted is not flirting with a quadruple double lol.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: beklog on March 02, 2013, 11:19:24 AM
Another win and another Celtics are playing better w/o Rondo thread
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 02, 2013, 11:20:54 AM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

Well, I do think that when Rondo does come back, perhaps he needs to grow a bit more and let Paul and others share the ball.

KG is even an elite passer for a big.

Some of that is on Doc....but I'm sure it will all work out.

I bolded your comment there, because one overlooked stat, sadly, is that in that clinching game 6 vs LA in BOS in June 2008, Rajon Rondo quietly flirted with a quadruple double:

21 pts, 7 rebs, 8 assists and SIX steals....all under 32 min.

He played less than Pierce, KG and Ray Allen in that game, too.

He was indeed showing signs of greatness even then, but was overshadowed somewhat by the Big Three.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200806170BOS.html

Those numbers you posted is not flirting with a quadruple double lol.

Well, what is your definition of it, then?

These threads are crazy, lol...first, Doug Collins - Doc Rivers....Jeff Green is playing better, so he's off the hook (for now).....

....and now we have another Rondo Thread.

What's next? A "Trade Danny Ainge" thread? ;D
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 11:25:00 AM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

Well, I do think that when Rondo does come back, perhaps he needs to grow a bit more and let Paul and others share the ball.

KG is even an elite passer for a big.

Some of that is on Doc....but I'm sure it will all work out.

I bolded your comment there, because one overlooked stat, sadly, is that in that clinching game 6 vs LA in BOS in June 2008, Rajon Rondo quietly flirted with a quadruple double:

21 pts, 7 rebs, 8 assists and SIX steals....all under 32 min.

He played less than Pierce, KG and Ray Allen in that game, too.

He was indeed showing signs of greatness even then, but was overshadowed somewhat by the Big Three.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200806170BOS.html

Those numbers you posted is not flirting with a quadruple double lol.

Well, what is your definition of it, then?

These threads are crazy, lol...first, Doug Collins - Doc Rivers....Jeff Green is playing better, so he's off the hook (for now).....

....and now we have another Rondo Thread.

What's next? A "Trade Danny Ainge" thread? ;D

21, 10, 9, 9. That's flirting with a quadruple double lol..And I'm pretty sure a thread similar to that has already been made. Don't think It was a trade danny thread but it was a bash danny thread, I think.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 11:26:57 AM
TO the OP:  Did you start threads like this when the Celtics were losing to Charlotte and Portland? .... and probably would have won in Portland and Charlotte with Rondo healthy.

With Rondo we lost games to Detroit (2), Phili (2), NO at home, and Sac among others.  The truth is that Rondo's minutes have been replaced with more minutes for Bradley, Lee, and Terry plus now minutes from Jordan Crawford and we are playing as good if not better.  Measure it how every you want, that is just black and white.

This either means that Rondo isn't as good as some think or that Bradley. Lee, Terry, Crawford are just as good as Rondo (or at least make an equal contribution to the team).  This very clearly proven reality seems very hard for people to accept.

  ...or it means that Pierce and Terry are healthier and playing better than they were, or it means that Rondo wasn't really healthy in January, or that Green's getting back into playing form after a year away from basketball or that the reeling Clippers were 1 of the 2 top 10 defenses we've faced since Rondo left compared to 6 bottom 10 defenses. It's not that people don't accept the clear proof, they realize that it doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 02, 2013, 11:29:05 AM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

Well, I do think that when Rondo does come back, perhaps he needs to grow a bit more and let Paul and others share the ball.

KG is even an elite passer for a big.

Some of that is on Doc....but I'm sure it will all work out.

I bolded your comment there, because one overlooked stat, sadly, is that in that clinching game 6 vs LA in BOS in June 2008, Rajon Rondo quietly flirted with a quadruple double:

21 pts, 7 rebs, 8 assists and SIX steals....all under 32 min.

He played less than Pierce, KG and Ray Allen in that game, too.

He was indeed showing signs of greatness even then, but was overshadowed somewhat by the Big Three.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200806170BOS.html

Those numbers you posted is not flirting with a quadruple double lol.

Well, what is your definition of it, then?

These threads are crazy, lol...first, Doug Collins - Doc Rivers....Jeff Green is playing better, so he's off the hook (for now).....

....and now we have another Rondo Thread.

What's next? A "Trade Danny Ainge" thread? ;D

21, 10, 9, 9. That's flirting with a quadruple double lol..And I'm pretty sure a thread similar to that has already been made. Don't think It was a trade danny thread but it was a bash danny thread, I think.

Oh C'mon, Man...that's close enough, lol

When we don't like certain players, we can generate enough statistics, plus/minus, incidents, etc - to paint a player a certain way.

You'd think that Ray Allen ate someone's kid by the way some of these threads speak of him.

Look - I'm just glad we're playing well without him.

But this team STILL needs him going forward.

This time off is hopefully showing him some things.

He WILL come back even better than before.

We need him.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 11:32:54 AM
TO the OP:  Did you start threads like this when the Celtics were losing to Charlotte and Portland? .... and probably would have won in Portland and Charlotte with Rondo healthy.

With Rondo we lost games to Detroit (2), Phili (2), NO at home, and Sac among others.  The truth is that Rondo's minutes have been replaced with more minutes for Bradley, Lee, and Terry plus now minutes from Jordan Crawford and we are playing as good if not better.  Measure it how every you want, that is just black and white.

This either means that Rondo isn't as good as some think or that Bradley. Lee, Terry, Crawford are just as good as Rondo (or at least make an equal contribution to the team).  This very clearly proven reality seems very hard for people to accept.


I think we won't really know about this team until the playoffs. If we somehow beat miami the rondo supporters will lose their minds lol.

  We weren't playing bad because of Rondo and much of our recent improvement is unrelated to Rondo leaving. If we beat the Heat it will go to show how dangerous the team would have been in the playoffs with Rondo on the team.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 02, 2013, 11:35:26 AM
To the OP - I apologize if I come off wrong - no offense to you or any of the other OPs out there.

But why can't we just enjoy these wins without saying whose here or whatnot?

Rajon Rondo NEEDS to grow a bit and mature....but even the great Kobe Bryant has grown this year - he's learning to share the ball at THIS stage of his career, which is incredible.

And Kobe is 34. Rajon is ONLY 27...just turned 27, too...still in his prime.

I have absolutely NO doubt that Rajon Rondo will come back even better than before. He will lead this team far, and prove that he is just as good, if not better, than Chris Paul.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 11:42:07 AM
TO the OP:  Did you start threads like this when the Celtics were losing to Charlotte and Portland? Boston is winning their home games without Rondo.  NBA teams win home games.  Boston is 3-4 on the road since he went down, and probably would have won in Portland and Charlotte with Rondo healthy.

This whole "Rondo Pouting" stuff is foolishness.  The guy is great at running a team.  Now that he's not there, others are expanding their role and the Celtics are winning games.  If these players took it upon themselves to be more active, instead of waiting for Rondo to set the table for them, they would have been winning with Rondo.

One thing I do agree with the Rondo critics is that he wasn't held to a high standard defensively in the regular season. Pressuring the ball defensively has been a key reason why the Celtics have been winning.  Maybe when Rondo returns, he and Doc will have a different perspective on how much energy he can expend on the defensive end and still run the team.     

The regular season is a marathon, and teams, good and bad, go on runs, based on schedule, health, etc.  Let's see how the Cs do in a playoff series before we make and grand pronouncements about how the Celtics are better off without Rajon Rondo.

Definitely wouldn't say PROBABLY. Also that's not their fault. Rondo and doc both demand the ball to be in rondos hands like 95 percent of the time. He calls for the ball the very second someone gets a rebound. Also rondo is known for feeding pierce and KG and sometimes looking past the other guys.

You see it all the time with the lakers. When kobe starts holding the ball and shot jacking the other guys tend to just stand around. You ever try playing basketball with a ball hog? Its not fun. There's no doubt in my mind this team would be better if rondo was healthy and didn't hold the ball every possession for 20 seconds looking for an assist.

  And yet, without Rondo, we take the same number of shots at the end of the shot clock, about 2-3 possessions per quarter. We also average more shot clock violations without him. Rondo demanding the ball and holding it for the entire shot clock is people's memories of the occasional possession in a game reinforced by other people making the same claim.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: CelticsFan9 on March 02, 2013, 11:45:32 AM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

When did Avery Bradley win us a championship?  Jeff Green?  Glen Davis?  Nate Robinson? Kendrick Perkins?  Courtney Lee?  Jason Terry?  Greg Stiemsma?  Marquis Daniels?  What about these guys?  Why the hell didn't they win us a championship?

This "Rondo makes us worse" thing is insane.  I'd love to pull up these threads when we get bounced in the first or second round.

To those who say Rondo is a ball hog who hurts our offense: You know what isn't going to be fun?  Watching our team unable to score against Miami, Chicago, Indiana, or any other team we may face in the playoffs who cares even a lick about defense.

After that, we'll see a bunch of, "Oh, man, if only we had Rondo, one of the few guys in the league capable of breaking down elite defenses."  And the best part: many of those posts will be coming from people. Who say we're better without Rondo.

This is disgusting.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 11:48:04 AM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

  There's a long list of players in the league that aren't valuable. Up until last year LeBron headlined the group, now you'd have to say Durant does.

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

  I thought the list of 10 point guards better than Rondo was ridiculous but it pales in comparison to this.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 11:50:41 AM
TO the OP:  Did you start threads like this when the Celtics were losing to Charlotte and Portland? .... and probably would have won in Portland and Charlotte with Rondo healthy.

With Rondo we lost games to Detroit (2), Phili (2), NO at home, and Sac among others.  The truth is that Rondo's minutes have been replaced with more minutes for Bradley, Lee, and Terry plus now minutes from Jordan Crawford and we are playing as good if not better.  Measure it how every you want, that is just black and white.

This either means that Rondo isn't as good as some think or that Bradley. Lee, Terry, Crawford are just as good as Rondo (or at least make an equal contribution to the team).  This very clearly proven reality seems very hard for people to accept.


I think we won't really know about this team until the playoffs. If we somehow beat miami the rondo supporters will lose their minds lol.

  We weren't playing bad because of Rondo and much of our recent improvement is unrelated to Rondo leaving. If we beat the Heat it will go to show how dangerous the team would have been in the playoffs with Rondo on the team.

Whoa whoa WHOA! Really? So basically, no matter how bad we play with rondo its not his fault and no matter how good we play without him its irrelevant because we'd play much better with him even tho our 20-23 record says otherwise? Let me sum all this up........all hail the mighty rondo. Seriously tim, I have never seen a guy defend ANYONE the way you defend rondo lol. 
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 11:54:03 AM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

When did Avery Bradley win us a championship?  Jeff Green?  Glen Davis?  Nate Robinson? Kendrick Perkins?  Courtney Lee?  Jason Terry?  Greg Stiemsma?  Marquis Daniels?  What about these guys?  Why the hell didn't they win us a championship?

This "Rondo makes us worse" thing is insane.  I'd love to pull up these threads when we get bounced in the first or second round.

To those who say Rondo is a ball hog who hurts our offense: You know what isn't going to be fun?  Watching our team unable to score against Miami, Chicago, Indiana, or any other team we may face in the playoffs who cares even a lick about defense.

After that, we'll see a bunch of, "Oh, man, if only we had Rondo, one of the few guys in the league capable of breaking down elite defenses."  And the best part: many of those posts will be coming from people. Who say we're better without Rondo.

This is disgusting.

Oh, oh, pick me pick me! Because those guys are role players.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: pearljammer10 on March 02, 2013, 11:56:31 AM

Definitely wouldn't say PROBABLY. Also that's not their fault. Rondo and doc both demand the ball to be in rondos hands like 95 percent of the time. He calls for the ball the very second someone gets a rebound. Also rondo is known for feeding pierce and KG and sometimes looking past the other guys.

You see it all the time with the lakers. When kobe starts holding the ball and shot jacking the other guys tend to just stand around. You ever try playing basketball with a ball hog? Its not fun. There's no doubt in my mind this team would be better if rondo was healthy and didn't hold the ball every possession for 20 seconds looking for an assist.

Did you just try to compare Rondo, one of the two best set up PGs in the league, to Kobe when he jacks up 28 shots and freezes out the rest of his teammates?   That's lunacy.  A PG focusing too much on setting teammates is a lot different than a gunner hoisting up shot after shot while his teammates stand around.

If you want to argue that the Cs being to Rondo-centric hurt the team because they were easier to defend, because everyone wasn't as engaged as all around players, maybe I'll buy into that, but saying the Celtics players were being freezed out when on the floor with a guy who could get them the ball at any time, better than any other player in the entire league, save CP3, is lunacy. 

I've played with ball hogs, and I've played with pass first set up PGs.  I hated playing with a ball hog, but if he were on, I'd make sure to set picks for him and if he was off, I'd hit the offensive glass.  With the pass hungry PG, I'd make sure I was ready for the ball at all times. Players need to be MORE engaged with Rondo, lest a pass will hit them in the face.   

Rondo is not one of the 2 top PG's in the league. I could even argue he's not in the top 10
-CP3
-Westbrook
-Irving
-Deron Williams
-Steve Nash
-Tony Parker
-Derrick Rose
-Steph Curry
-Jason Kidd
-Mike Conley

lolz.  Jason Kidd is better than Rondo?  You say you can argue that.  Please, go right ahead.

Haha I second that. This list is hilarious.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 02, 2013, 12:06:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyhiRHUg_Gg

Look..we all know Rondo needs to continue to grow, but let's not forget his talent.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Snakehead on March 02, 2013, 12:11:36 PM
Pouting huh?  Wow OP.

Some people.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: dasani on March 02, 2013, 12:18:10 PM
lol, why a thread like this after every win? It is getting tired. Why not focus on the current guys on the team. It's like Rondo still makes the team relevant even when he is not playing. Focus on the guys playing for a change.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: CelticsFan9 on March 02, 2013, 12:19:00 PM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

When did Avery Bradley win us a championship?  Jeff Green?  Glen Davis?  Nate Robinson? Kendrick Perkins?  Courtney Lee?  Jason Terry?  Greg Stiemsma?  Marquis Daniels?  What about these guys?  Why the hell didn't they win us a championship?

This "Rondo makes us worse" thing is insane.  I'd love to pull up these threads when we get bounced in the first or second round.

To those who say Rondo is a ball hog who hurts our offense: You know what isn't going to be fun?  Watching our team unable to score against Miami, Chicago, Indiana, or any other team we may face in the playoffs who cares even a lick about defense.

After that, we'll see a bunch of, "Oh, man, if only we had Rondo, one of the few guys in the league capable of breaking down elite defenses."  And the best part: many of those posts will be coming from people. Who say we're better without Rondo.

This is disgusting.

Oh, oh, pick me pick me! Because those guys are role players.

So if we're talking about stars, then how come Ray, Paul, and KG don't get the blame for not winning us championships in 2009, 2010, 2011, and last year?  Is it all Rondo's fault?

Well, of course it is.  Because, you know, Rondo hold the ball way too much.

Wait a minute!  Rondo is considered one of the best passers in the league and is great at getting teammates involved!

No, you're wrong, alter ego, because Rondo is a ball hog because I've watched him hold the ball for 20 seconds a couple times a game.

But, wait!  Carmelo, LeBron, Durant, and Kobe do that, so why don't they get criticized?

Because it's Rondo, and our record happened to be pretty bad with him, and it's slightly improved without him, so it's obviously HIS fault.  It is ALL Rondo's fault.

By the way LSS, I'm guessing you don't have an answer for the rest of my original post, so I'll just go on to the next Rondo critic.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: celtics2 on March 02, 2013, 12:20:35 PM
If you really think this team is better without Rondo you're fooling yourself... This is a league of stars, we'll see if there's a thread like this in the playoffs

why the losing record with him? we became an instant success the day he hobbled off the court. I think Doc accidentally wound up with a winning team because he didn't know how to or was afraid to handle Rondo. I think one of the reasons Allen left the Celts was because of Rondo. I think Rondo is one of the Stars, barely, and he carries baggage along with that title. 
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: scaryjerry on March 02, 2013, 12:23:32 PM
Pretty sure they had their largest win of the season against the suns with kg sitting, same suns team who just beat the spurs and hawks, made the second round of the playoffs with him hurt and were nearly undefeated with Scal in his place the year we won a title

Boring
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 02, 2013, 12:24:43 PM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

When did Avery Bradley win us a championship?  Jeff Green?  Glen Davis?  Nate Robinson? Kendrick Perkins?  Courtney Lee?  Jason Terry?  Greg Stiemsma?  Marquis Daniels?  What about these guys?  Why the hell didn't they win us a championship?

This "Rondo makes us worse" thing is insane.  I'd love to pull up these threads when we get bounced in the first or second round.

To those who say Rondo is a ball hog who hurts our offense: You know what isn't going to be fun?  Watching our team unable to score against Miami, Chicago, Indiana, or any other team we may face in the playoffs who cares even a lick about defense.

After that, we'll see a bunch of, "Oh, man, if only we had Rondo, one of the few guys in the league capable of breaking down elite defenses."  And the best part: many of those posts will be coming from people. Who say we're better without Rondo.

This is disgusting.

Oh, oh, pick me pick me! Because those guys are role players.

So if we're talking about stars, then how come Ray, Paul, and KG don't get the blame for not winning us championships in 2009, 2010, 2011, and last year?  Is it all Rondo's fault?

Well, of course it is.  Because, you know, Rondo hold the ball way too much.

Wait a minute!  Rondo is considered one of the best passers in the league and is great at getting teammates involved!

No, you're wrong, alter ego, because Rondo is a ball hog because I've watched him hold the ball for 20 seconds a couple times a game.

But, wait!  Carmelo, LeBron, Durant, and Kobe do that, so why don't they get criticized?

Because it's Rondo, and our record happened to be pretty bad with him, and it's slightly improved without him, so it's obviously HIS fault.  It is ALL Rondo's fault.

By the way LSS, I'm guessing you don't have an answer for the rest of my original post, so I'll just go on to the next Rondo critic.

Because they are STARS...flawless(not), lol....even Melo gets a pass, Honey Nut Cheerios and all...waiting outside with his posse for KG and all.

Rondo can't shoot...never will be able to shoot (not).

BOS is just not that attractive "Star" wise - to the NBA.

They even have an "Older" guy wearing Celtics gear on that NBA commercial, for crying out loud. ;D
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 12:28:16 PM
TO the OP:  Did you start threads like this when the Celtics were losing to Charlotte and Portland? .... and probably would have won in Portland and Charlotte with Rondo healthy.

With Rondo we lost games to Detroit (2), Phili (2), NO at home, and Sac among others.  The truth is that Rondo's minutes have been replaced with more minutes for Bradley, Lee, and Terry plus now minutes from Jordan Crawford and we are playing as good if not better.  Measure it how every you want, that is just black and white.

This either means that Rondo isn't as good as some think or that Bradley. Lee, Terry, Crawford are just as good as Rondo (or at least make an equal contribution to the team).  This very clearly proven reality seems very hard for people to accept.


I think we won't really know about this team until the playoffs. If we somehow beat miami the rondo supporters will lose their minds lol.

  We weren't playing bad because of Rondo and much of our recent improvement is unrelated to Rondo leaving. If we beat the Heat it will go to show how dangerous the team would have been in the playoffs with Rondo on the team.

Whoa whoa WHOA! Really? So basically, no matter how bad we play with rondo its not his fault and no matter how good we play without him its irrelevant because we'd play much better with him even tho our 20-23 record says otherwise? Let me sum all this up........all hail the mighty rondo. Seriously tim, I have never seen a guy defend ANYONE the way you defend rondo lol.

  I'd have thought that the revelation that PP and Terry were struggling with injuries would have tempered the blaming of our offensive woes on Rondo, maybe people just can't see the connection. Not to mention if you've seen the Celts play much since 2010 or so we've played great ball with Rondo controlling the ball.

  Since you made a Kobe comparison in this thread I'll follow suit. Remember all the posts earlier this year about how poorly the team did when Kobe scored 30 or more points? I think their record bottomed out at 2-9 in such games. Everyone heard that and everyone was explaining exactly *why* the team played so poorly when Kobe scored so much.

  The reality of the situation is that the Lakers generally do well when Kobe scores 30 points. They won almost 70% of such games in the prior 3 seasons and they've won 8 out of the last 13 such games this year. What people were seeing was an anomaly. The team was struggling. Not because Kobe was shooting too much, just struggling.

  People 's explanations about what was happening wasn't based on what was going on in games but were based on taking short term results. They assumed that those results were a systemic problem and came up with reasons that Kobe scoring too much might lead to a team struggling. The team's performance in Kobe's high scoring games both before and after that small streak show that the explanations weren't based on reality. The Celt's play over the last few years show the same thing about the claims people are making about the claims about Rondo being the source of our problems.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: scaryjerry on March 02, 2013, 12:29:42 PM
The culture has been changed to a winning one since 07 and we can withstand the loss of players and still win.....was sully pouty to? ::)
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: celtics2 on March 02, 2013, 12:30:33 PM
TO the OP:  Did you start threads like this when the Celtics were losing to Charlotte and Portland? Boston is winning their home games without Rondo.  NBA teams win home games.  Boston is 3-4 on the road since he went down, and probably would have won in Portland and Charlotte with Rondo healthy.

This whole "Rondo Pouting" stuff is foolishness.  The guy is great at running a team.  Now that he's not there, others are expanding their role and the Celtics are winning games.  If these players took it upon themselves to be more active, instead of waiting for Rondo to set the table for them, they would have been winning with Rondo.

One thing I do agree with the Rondo critics is that he wasn't held to a high standard defensively in the regular season. Pressuring the ball defensively has been a key reason why the Celtics have been winning.  Maybe when Rondo returns, he and Doc will have a different perspective on how much energy he can expend on the defensive end and still run the team.     

The regular season is a marathon, and teams, good and bad, go on runs, based on schedule, health, etc.  Let's see how the Cs do in a playoff series before we make and grand pronouncements about how the Celtics are better off without Rajon Rondo.

Well if that's what it takes *Rondo getting hurt* and the rest of the Team picking it up. Kudos to Rondo. He took one for the Team. Bottom line we're winning. Rondo excels on a very well structured Team like Pierce, Kg and Allen carrying the weight. Haven't seen Rondo carry a lesser Team yet.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 12:31:32 PM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

When did Avery Bradley win us a championship?  Jeff Green?  Glen Davis?  Nate Robinson? Kendrick Perkins?  Courtney Lee?  Jason Terry?  Greg Stiemsma?  Marquis Daniels?  What about these guys?  Why the hell didn't they win us a championship?

This "Rondo makes us worse" thing is insane.  I'd love to pull up these threads when we get bounced in the first or second round.

To those who say Rondo is a ball hog who hurts our offense: You know what isn't going to be fun?  Watching our team unable to score against Miami, Chicago, Indiana, or any other team we may face in the playoffs who cares even a lick about defense.

After that, we'll see a bunch of, "Oh, man, if only we had Rondo, one of the few guys in the league capable of breaking down elite defenses."  And the best part: many of those posts will be coming from people. Who say we're better without Rondo.

This is disgusting.

Oh, oh, pick me pick me! Because those guys are role players.

So if we're talking about stars, then how come Ray, Paul, and KG don't get the blame for not winning us championships in 2009, 2010, 2011, and last year?  Is it all Rondo's fault?

Well, of course it is.  Because, you know, Rondo hold the ball way too much.

Wait a minute!  Rondo is considered one of the best passers in the league and is great at getting teammates involved!

No, you're wrong, alter ego, because Rondo is a ball hog because I've watched him hold the ball for 20 seconds a couple times a game.

But, wait!  Carmelo, LeBron, Durant, and Kobe do that, so why don't they get criticized?

Because it's Rondo, and our record happened to be pretty bad with him, and it's slightly improved without him, so it's obviously HIS fault.  It is ALL Rondo's fault.

By the way LSS, I'm guessing you don't have an answer for the rest of my original post, so I'll just go on to the next Rondo critic.

You're talking to the wrong guy. I blame everyone that deserves blame. I'm one of the few guys on here that doesn't fanboy it up to ANYONE. Doc pierce KG idc. If they are hurting the team Ill call it.

I didn't respond to the rest of your post because honestly I don't feel like i need too. Kobe does get criticized, alot actually. Not by the kobe fanboys but by everyone else. Rondo isn't anywhere near as good as lebron or durant so he can't get away with doing what they do because he doesn't do  it anywhere near as great.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: celtics2 on March 02, 2013, 12:39:54 PM
We will need a lot of our guys to "play over their heads" in the playoffs...without Rondo and Sully.

Sorry, but that's just them apples.

I am still pushing and rooting for the team to win it all and I believe they can do it...that's just the nature of a die hard fan.

the oranges is didn't look like a Team that was headed for the playoffs with Rondo. Besides Rondo carries his Health Insurance Policy around because he's always healing something.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 12:47:33 PM
I still think rondo will be missed in the playoffs but if jeff green can play like an allstar we have a shot.

  If Green played like an all-star in the playoffs and we had Rondo that shot would be significantly better.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Celtics4ever on March 02, 2013, 12:50:43 PM
All players are flawed even the all time greats have flaws in their game. (Aside from the Big O triple double year.)

Anyone who thinks Sebastian Telfair would have lead us a ring with the 08 squad or we would have won that without RR is a fool.

We are not a better team without Rondo.   We won some meaningless games in the middle of the season.   Maybe if these guys had played with a sense of urgency earlier in the year we would not be were we are at.   RR had a ton of big games this year.

Rondo has more trade value than Bradley and PP I'd say right now.  Hates are always going to hate it clouds their logic.   We go on a six game win streak and we are a better team.   RR made the all star team the other guys did not save KG.

Rondo had the ball more than PJ Brown that is absurd.  Too bad you don't have demonstrate minimal basketball knowledge to post here because the Op would not make the cut....
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: xmuscularghandix on March 02, 2013, 12:52:33 PM
When he comes back he MUST recognize that some of his decisions were in fact holding back his teammates. He has to be more open to moving the ball around... not to mention gutting it out and locking down defensively like he used to do.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 02, 2013, 01:02:04 PM
When he comes back he MUST recognize that some of his decisions were in fact holding back his teammates. He has to be more open to moving the ball around... not to mention gutting it out and locking down defensively like he used to do.

Good Point.

Even makes me wonder a bit about these Ray Allen-Rondo incidents....

Rondo is a GREAT player, even now.. I love the guy...like you I hope he is paying attention to what's going on.

No matter how good players think they are - they CAN get better, look at Kobe's transformation with Nash.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Swoopz on March 02, 2013, 01:05:11 PM
...Against a team that's gone 3-7 their last 10 games, at home.

I find it ironic how some people say that people who believe that the Celtics will have a tough time in the playoffs don't care about the team, but then make these kinds of posts bashing someone who is part of this team and has played his heart out for this team.

When Rondo went down I was devastated but I thought that at least this kind of stuff would die down. Guess not. Face it, Rondo is not getting traded while he's hurt and it'll be months until he can play again, so let's just focus on the team right now and enjoy these wins without needlessly attacking him.

Besides, everything that is to be said has been said and these threads pretty much just repeat the same stuff every time. So give it a rest.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on March 02, 2013, 01:11:35 PM
There was obvious evidence to the Missing #1 point guard...PP caught with the ball in bad spots often, stolen ball on the way up the floor, no one cutting, settling for jump shots for a long 3rd quarter.....weak passing, many turnovers..no one able to bring the ball up the floor....sure, Ronod had some fualts, ones i am sure he has seen and is fixing....as he did his shooting...hold ALL to these standards you hold Rondo to...then you will see his value and contributions....! They needed 5-6 guys to replace him.....!
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Q_FBE on March 02, 2013, 01:17:38 PM
How many times do I have to write:

It was a pure coincidence that the 2013 Celtics emerged right at the time Rondo get injured. I want to see what the Celtics would be like with Rajon Rondo playing.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on March 02, 2013, 01:22:45 PM
How many times do I have to write:

It was a pure coincidence that the 2013 Celtics emerged right at the time Rondo get injured. I want to see what the Celtics would be like with Rajon Rondo playing.
me too..bradley added a lot...but he cannot replace rondo, they are meant to compliment each other, and do so VERY well..!!!
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 01:29:07 PM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

When did Avery Bradley win us a championship?  Jeff Green?  Glen Davis?  Nate Robinson? Kendrick Perkins?  Courtney Lee?  Jason Terry?  Greg Stiemsma?  Marquis Daniels?  What about these guys?  Why the hell didn't they win us a championship?

This "Rondo makes us worse" thing is insane.  I'd love to pull up these threads when we get bounced in the first or second round.

To those who say Rondo is a ball hog who hurts our offense: You know what isn't going to be fun?  Watching our team unable to score against Miami, Chicago, Indiana, or any other team we may face in the playoffs who cares even a lick about defense.

After that, we'll see a bunch of, "Oh, man, if only we had Rondo, one of the few guys in the league capable of breaking down elite defenses."  And the best part: many of those posts will be coming from people. Who say we're better without Rondo.

This is disgusting.

Oh, oh, pick me pick me! Because those guys are role players.

So if we're talking about stars, then how come Ray, Paul, and KG don't get the blame for not winning us championships in 2009, 2010, 2011, and last year?  Is it all Rondo's fault?

Well, of course it is.  Because, you know, Rondo hold the ball way too much.

Wait a minute!  Rondo is considered one of the best passers in the league and is great at getting teammates involved!

No, you're wrong, alter ego, because Rondo is a ball hog because I've watched him hold the ball for 20 seconds a couple times a game.

But, wait!  Carmelo, LeBron, Durant, and Kobe do that, so why don't they get criticized?

Because it's Rondo, and our record happened to be pretty bad with him, and it's slightly improved without him, so it's obviously HIS fault.  It is ALL Rondo's fault.

By the way LSS, I'm guessing you don't have an answer for the rest of my original post, so I'll just go on to the next Rondo critic.

You're talking to the wrong guy. I blame everyone that deserves blame. I'm one of the few guys on here that doesn't fanboy it up to ANYONE. Doc pierce KG idc. If they are hurting the team Ill call it.

  Claiming that you're not a fanboy doesn't magically add any accuracy to your opinions. It's admirable that you can be critical enough of Rondo to say that his having the ball so much hurts the team. But that doesn't change the fact that our best offensive play over the last few years (including this year) has come with Rondo controlling the ball on offense and "hunting for assists". In the grand scheme of things reconciling the fact that our best offense comes with Rondo controlling the ball with your claim that his controlling the ball hurts the team would go farther than insulting the people who point out the flaws in your analysis.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: ItStaysYang on March 02, 2013, 01:32:43 PM
Sigh..... the grass is always greener.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 01:40:27 PM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

When did Avery Bradley win us a championship?  Jeff Green?  Glen Davis?  Nate Robinson? Kendrick Perkins?  Courtney Lee?  Jason Terry?  Greg Stiemsma?  Marquis Daniels?  What about these guys?  Why the hell didn't they win us a championship?

This "Rondo makes us worse" thing is insane.  I'd love to pull up these threads when we get bounced in the first or second round.

To those who say Rondo is a ball hog who hurts our offense: You know what isn't going to be fun?  Watching our team unable to score against Miami, Chicago, Indiana, or any other team we may face in the playoffs who cares even a lick about defense.

After that, we'll see a bunch of, "Oh, man, if only we had Rondo, one of the few guys in the league capable of breaking down elite defenses."  And the best part: many of those posts will be coming from people. Who say we're better without Rondo.

This is disgusting.

Oh, oh, pick me pick me! Because those guys are role players.

So if we're talking about stars, then how come Ray, Paul, and KG don't get the blame for not winning us championships in 2009, 2010, 2011, and last year?  Is it all Rondo's fault?

Well, of course it is.  Because, you know, Rondo hold the ball way too much.

Wait a minute!  Rondo is considered one of the best passers in the league and is great at getting teammates involved!

No, you're wrong, alter ego, because Rondo is a ball hog because I've watched him hold the ball for 20 seconds a couple times a game.

But, wait!  Carmelo, LeBron, Durant, and Kobe do that, so why don't they get criticized?

Because it's Rondo, and our record happened to be pretty bad with him, and it's slightly improved without him, so it's obviously HIS fault.  It is ALL Rondo's fault.

By the way LSS, I'm guessing you don't have an answer for the rest of my original post, so I'll just go on to the next Rondo critic.

You're talking to the wrong guy. I blame everyone that deserves blame. I'm one of the few guys on here that doesn't fanboy it up to ANYONE. Doc pierce KG idc. If they are hurting the team Ill call it.

  Claiming that you're not a fanboy doesn't magically add any accuracy to your opinions. It's admirable that you can be critical enough of Rondo to say that his having the ball so much hurts the team. But that doesn't change the fact that our best offensive play over the last few years (including this year) has come with Rondo controlling the ball on offense and "hunting for assists". In the grand scheme of things reconciling the fact that our best offense comes with Rondo controlling the ball with your claim that his controlling the ball hurts the team would go farther than insulting the people who point out the flaws in your analysis.

I'm done going in circles with you. No matter how much better or worse we look with rondo, no matter how much we win or lose without him, no matter how much better or worse people look playing beside him, none of that matters. You will defend rondo to the grave and you have made that extremely clear.

Therefore I see no point in going back and forth with you. You like to pull up numbers when they back your stance but ignore them when they don't. I use the eye test first then I resort to numbers. This team *This year* plays better when rondo doesn't dominate the ball, my eyes tell me that and our record tells me that.

I remember awhile back lebron had a triple double in a playoff game. If you just look at the numbers you'd say well, lebron played great. If you actually watch the game you would know that was the most irrelevant triple double ever and wasn't the case. Numbers only tell so much of the story. Watching the games and wins and losses tell more than any statistical number you bring up. So with that said, I'm done here.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 02, 2013, 01:41:55 PM
I just think that - even with all of Rondo's gifts - he is not perfect...no player is.

But we STILL have a gift in Rajon Rondo.

Poster "Who" posted a comment from Andre Iguodala (can't find it for the life of me) giving him much praise.

Even Kobe Bryant listed Rondo as one of his faves...

http://celticshub.com/2013/02/07/kobe-bryant-loves-rajon-rondo/

Quote
You don’t want Rondo? Send him my way,” Kobe declared. “I love everything about him. Everything. I love his attitude, I love his chippiness, his edge, his intellect, his know-it-allness. All of it. That’s what makes championship players.

“What guard have you seen at his size that will get you 18 assists, 17 boards and 20 points all in one game? That’s unheard of. I love that kid. I always make a point of talking to him during All-Star [Weekend]. He’s one of my favorites.”

Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: CelticsFan9 on March 02, 2013, 01:58:15 PM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

When did Avery Bradley win us a championship?  Jeff Green?  Glen Davis?  Nate Robinson? Kendrick Perkins?  Courtney Lee?  Jason Terry?  Greg Stiemsma?  Marquis Daniels?  What about these guys?  Why the hell didn't they win us a championship?

This "Rondo makes us worse" thing is insane.  I'd love to pull up these threads when we get bounced in the first or second round.

To those who say Rondo is a ball hog who hurts our offense: You know what isn't going to be fun?  Watching our team unable to score against Miami, Chicago, Indiana, or any other team we may face in the playoffs who cares even a lick about defense.

After that, we'll see a bunch of, "Oh, man, if only we had Rondo, one of the few guys in the league capable of breaking down elite defenses."  And the best part: many of those posts will be coming from people. Who say we're better without Rondo.

This is disgusting.

Oh, oh, pick me pick me! Because those guys are role players.

So if we're talking about stars, then how come Ray, Paul, and KG don't get the blame for not winning us championships in 2009, 2010, 2011, and last year?  Is it all Rondo's fault?

Well, of course it is.  Because, you know, Rondo hold the ball way too much.

Wait a minute!  Rondo is considered one of the best passers in the league and is great at getting teammates involved!

No, you're wrong, alter ego, because Rondo is a ball hog because I've watched him hold the ball for 20 seconds a couple times a game.

But, wait!  Carmelo, LeBron, Durant, and Kobe do that, so why don't they get criticized?

Because it's Rondo, and our record happened to be pretty bad with him, and it's slightly improved without him, so it's obviously HIS fault.  It is ALL Rondo's fault.

By the way LSS, I'm guessing you don't have an answer for the rest of my original post, so I'll just go on to the next Rondo critic.

You're talking to the wrong guy. I blame everyone that deserves blame. I'm one of the few guys on here that doesn't fanboy it up to ANYONE. Doc pierce KG idc. If they are hurting the team Ill call it.

  Claiming that you're not a fanboy doesn't magically add any accuracy to your opinions. It's admirable that you can be critical enough of Rondo to say that his having the ball so much hurts the team. But that doesn't change the fact that our best offensive play over the last few years (including this year) has come with Rondo controlling the ball on offense and "hunting for assists". In the grand scheme of things reconciling the fact that our best offense comes with Rondo controlling the ball with your claim that his controlling the ball hurts the team would go farther than insulting the people who point out the flaws in your analysis.

I'm done going in circles with you. No matter how much better or worse we look with rondo, no matter how much we win or lose without him, no matter how much better or worse people look playing beside him, none of that matters. You will defend rondo to the grave and you have made that extremely clear.

Therefore I see no point in going back and forth with you. You like to pull up numbers when they back your stance but ignore them when they don't. I use the eye test first then I resort to numbers. This team *This year* plays better when rondo doesn't dominate the ball, my eyes tell me that and our record tells me that.

I remember awhile back lebron had a triple double in a playoff game. If you just look at the numbers you'd say well, lebron played great. If you actually watch the game you would know that was the most irrelevant triple double ever and wasn't the case. Numbers only tell so much of the story. Watching the games and wins and losses tell more than any statistical number you bring up. So with that said, I'm done here.

I totally agree with this point.  In fact, I take it a step further and rarely look at those advanced stats and such for two reasons:

1.  I don't really understand them

2.  Once you start using them, I feel like you end up over-analyzing stuff about players.

The eye test has always been the route for me.

To connect this to the argument about Rondo: When I watch this team (since January 25, the day Rondo tore his ACL), they do play well, no question about it.  The ball moves, the defense is there, and guys are thriving in their roles; however, the Playoffs are a whole other beast, and that's when we'll miss Rondo most.

There are junctures in these past 15 or so games when we struggled to create offense.  Unsurprisingly, these junctures appear when the game is winding down, and usually end in pretty bad shot-selection (the ol' Pierce iso mainly).  So while we may be playing well right now, I think people should lower their expectations when the postseason rolls around, because that's when ALL of us (Rondo detractors, Rondo fanboys, and whatever's in between) will truly appreciate what Rondo does for this team.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 02:06:21 PM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

When did Avery Bradley win us a championship?  Jeff Green?  Glen Davis?  Nate Robinson? Kendrick Perkins?  Courtney Lee?  Jason Terry?  Greg Stiemsma?  Marquis Daniels?  What about these guys?  Why the hell didn't they win us a championship?

This "Rondo makes us worse" thing is insane.  I'd love to pull up these threads when we get bounced in the first or second round.

To those who say Rondo is a ball hog who hurts our offense: You know what isn't going to be fun?  Watching our team unable to score against Miami, Chicago, Indiana, or any other team we may face in the playoffs who cares even a lick about defense.

After that, we'll see a bunch of, "Oh, man, if only we had Rondo, one of the few guys in the league capable of breaking down elite defenses."  And the best part: many of those posts will be coming from people. Who say we're better without Rondo.

This is disgusting.

Oh, oh, pick me pick me! Because those guys are role players.

So if we're talking about stars, then how come Ray, Paul, and KG don't get the blame for not winning us championships in 2009, 2010, 2011, and last year?  Is it all Rondo's fault?

Well, of course it is.  Because, you know, Rondo hold the ball way too much.

Wait a minute!  Rondo is considered one of the best passers in the league and is great at getting teammates involved!

No, you're wrong, alter ego, because Rondo is a ball hog because I've watched him hold the ball for 20 seconds a couple times a game.

But, wait!  Carmelo, LeBron, Durant, and Kobe do that, so why don't they get criticized?

Because it's Rondo, and our record happened to be pretty bad with him, and it's slightly improved without him, so it's obviously HIS fault.  It is ALL Rondo's fault.

By the way LSS, I'm guessing you don't have an answer for the rest of my original post, so I'll just go on to the next Rondo critic.

You're talking to the wrong guy. I blame everyone that deserves blame. I'm one of the few guys on here that doesn't fanboy it up to ANYONE. Doc pierce KG idc. If they are hurting the team Ill call it.

  Claiming that you're not a fanboy doesn't magically add any accuracy to your opinions. It's admirable that you can be critical enough of Rondo to say that his having the ball so much hurts the team. But that doesn't change the fact that our best offensive play over the last few years (including this year) has come with Rondo controlling the ball on offense and "hunting for assists". In the grand scheme of things reconciling the fact that our best offense comes with Rondo controlling the ball with your claim that his controlling the ball hurts the team would go farther than insulting the people who point out the flaws in your analysis.

I'm done going in circles with you. No matter how much better or worse we look with rondo, no matter how much we win or lose without him, no matter how much better or worse people look playing beside him, none of that matters. You will defend rondo to the grave and you have made that extremely clear.

Therefore I see no point in going back and forth with you. You like to pull up numbers when they back your stance but ignore them when they don't. I use the eye test first then I resort to numbers. This team *This year* plays better when rondo doesn't dominate the ball, my eyes tell me that and our record tells me that.

  In other words no explanation of why your opinion might be off, just attacking me for disagreeing with you. I use the eye test just as much as you do. Stats frequently back up what I see, if they don't I generally look for a reason for that, either limitations in what they measure or other factors effecting the game.

  What I've seen from the team since Rondo went out is that the offense hasn't been great but our defense has been much more consistent. The players seem more focused and aggressive but more importantly the new players seem to understand their roles better and there are significantly fewer missed rotations compared to earlier this year.

  It's true that we're playing our best ball of the season recently. Our defense is playing like a top 2-3 defense and our offense is a little below average. When the season started our offense (with Rondo dominating the ball) was a top 10 offense but our defense was in the bottom third of the league. I fail to see how the team playing better defense and worse offense is proof that Rondo controlling the ball was the source of our woes.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Celtics18 on March 02, 2013, 02:10:21 PM
Edit.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: blink on March 02, 2013, 02:22:13 PM
lol, why a thread like this after every win? It is getting tired. Why not focus on the current guys on the team. It's like Rondo still makes the team relevant even when he is not playing. Focus on the guys playing for a change.

I agree. Go grind your anti-rondo ax somewhere else.  These 'we are better w/out Rondo' threads are so uninformed and reactionary.  Just silly.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 02:24:48 PM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

When did Avery Bradley win us a championship?  Jeff Green?  Glen Davis?  Nate Robinson? Kendrick Perkins?  Courtney Lee?  Jason Terry?  Greg Stiemsma?  Marquis Daniels?  What about these guys?  Why the hell didn't they win us a championship?

This "Rondo makes us worse" thing is insane.  I'd love to pull up these threads when we get bounced in the first or second round.

To those who say Rondo is a ball hog who hurts our offense: You know what isn't going to be fun?  Watching our team unable to score against Miami, Chicago, Indiana, or any other team we may face in the playoffs who cares even a lick about defense.

After that, we'll see a bunch of, "Oh, man, if only we had Rondo, one of the few guys in the league capable of breaking down elite defenses."  And the best part: many of those posts will be coming from people. Who say we're better without Rondo.

This is disgusting.

Oh, oh, pick me pick me! Because those guys are role players.

So if we're talking about stars, then how come Ray, Paul, and KG don't get the blame for not winning us championships in 2009, 2010, 2011, and last year?  Is it all Rondo's fault?

Well, of course it is.  Because, you know, Rondo hold the ball way too much.

Wait a minute!  Rondo is considered one of the best passers in the league and is great at getting teammates involved!

No, you're wrong, alter ego, because Rondo is a ball hog because I've watched him hold the ball for 20 seconds a couple times a game.

But, wait!  Carmelo, LeBron, Durant, and Kobe do that, so why don't they get criticized?

Because it's Rondo, and our record happened to be pretty bad with him, and it's slightly improved without him, so it's obviously HIS fault.  It is ALL Rondo's fault.

By the way LSS, I'm guessing you don't have an answer for the rest of my original post, so I'll just go on to the next Rondo critic.

You're talking to the wrong guy. I blame everyone that deserves blame. I'm one of the few guys on here that doesn't fanboy it up to ANYONE. Doc pierce KG idc. If they are hurting the team Ill call it.

  Claiming that you're not a fanboy doesn't magically add any accuracy to your opinions. It's admirable that you can be critical enough of Rondo to say that his having the ball so much hurts the team. But that doesn't change the fact that our best offensive play over the last few years (including this year) has come with Rondo controlling the ball on offense and "hunting for assists". In the grand scheme of things reconciling the fact that our best offense comes with Rondo controlling the ball with your claim that his controlling the ball hurts the team would go farther than insulting the people who point out the flaws in your analysis.

I'm done going in circles with you. No matter how much better or worse we look with rondo, no matter how much we win or lose without him, no matter how much better or worse people look playing beside him, none of that matters. You will defend rondo to the grave and you have made that extremely clear.

Therefore I see no point in going back and forth with you. You like to pull up numbers when they back your stance but ignore them when they don't. I use the eye test first then I resort to numbers. This team *This year* plays better when rondo doesn't dominate the ball, my eyes tell me that and our record tells me that.

I remember awhile back lebron had a triple double in a playoff game. If you just look at the numbers you'd say well, lebron played great. If you actually watch the game you would know that was the most irrelevant triple double ever and wasn't the case. Numbers only tell so much of the story. Watching the games and wins and losses tell more than any statistical number you bring up. So with that said, I'm done here.

I totally agree with this point.  In fact, I take it a step further and rarely look at those advanced stats and such for two reasons:

1.  I don't really understand them

2.  Once you start using them, I feel like you end up over-analyzing stuff about players.

The eye test has always been the route for me.

To connect this to the argument about Rondo: When I watch this team (since January 25, the day Rondo tore his ACL), they do play well, no question about it.  The ball moves, the defense is there, and guys are thriving in their roles; however, the Playoffs are a whole other beast, and that's when we'll miss Rondo most.

There are junctures in these past 15 or so games when we struggled to create offense.  Unsurprisingly, these junctures appear when the game is winding down, and usually end in pretty bad shot-selection (the ol' Pierce iso mainly).  So while we may be playing well right now, I think people should lower their expectations when the postseason rolls around, because that's when ALL of us (Rondo detractors, Rondo fanboys, and whatever's in between) will truly appreciate what Rondo does for this team.

  You also have to consider that in those 15 games we've played 7 of the bottom 10 defenses in the league and just 2 of the top 10. One of the top 10 defenses was the Clippers (our game was sandwiched between their losses to the Raptors and Wizards) and the Bulls game, in which our offense was abysmal.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on March 02, 2013, 03:28:41 PM
I just think that - even with all of Rondo's gifts - he is not perfect...no player is.

But we STILL have a gift in Rajon Rondo.

Poster "Who" posted a comment from Andre Iguodala (can't find it for the life of me) giving him much praise.

Even Kobe Bryant listed Rondo as one of his faves...

http://celticshub.com/2013/02/07/kobe-bryant-loves-rajon-rondo/

Quote
You don’t want Rondo? Send him my way,” Kobe declared. “I love everything about him. Everything. I love his attitude, I love his chippiness, his edge, his intellect, his know-it-allness. All of it. That’s what makes championship players.

“What guard have you seen at his size that will get you 18 assists, 17 boards and 20 points all in one game? That’s unheard of. I love that kid. I always make a point of talking to him during All-Star [Weekend]. He’s one of my favorites.”


THAT is exactly right..I believe a PLAYER like Kobe knows much better than a POSTER here....Rondo is very good and we are lucky to have him...too bad our coach cannot find a way to make him better..and improve those things some here do not like.....no player is perfect..! Bradley fixes rondo's imperfections....that is why they work well togther...
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: CoachBo on March 02, 2013, 04:13:09 PM
It isn't an issue of whether Rondo is a quality player.

It's an issue that he no longer fits with the group of players Ainge has assembled. That is quite clear, and it has been for awhile. As I've said before, he was a perfect fit with three veteran, slowing All-Star scorers.

He is not a fit at all - in fact, he is an impediment - with the group Ainge has assembled right now, led by two veterans who struggle to score every night.

Exacerbated by Rondo's growing laziness on the defensive end of the floor.

Confident Ainge will move him in the off-season. As he should.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Celtics18 on March 02, 2013, 04:25:48 PM
It isn't an issue of whether Rondo is a quality player.

It's an issue that he no longer fits with the group of players Ainge has assembled. That is quite clear, and it has been for awhile. As I've said before, he was a perfect fit with three veteran, slowing All-Star scorers.

He is not a fit at all - in fact, he is an impediment - with the group Ainge has assembled right now, led by two veterans who struggle to score every night.

Exacerbated by Rondo's growing laziness on the defensive end of the floor.

Confident Ainge will move him in the off-season. As he should.

I'm confused as to which players you don't think he fits with.  Personally, I think guys like Green, Bradley, Lee, and Wilcox--up-tempo guys--are going to be a great fit with Rondo for the future of this franchise. 

I'm looking forward to seeing the next phase of the Boston Celtics being a defensive minded up-tempo team, built around the strengths of Rajon Rondo. 
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Greenback on March 02, 2013, 04:28:47 PM
The Celtics are clearly better without Rondo. 

What part of his game is really missed?  Its not his 65% free throw percentage.  Its not his 24% 3pt percentage.  Its not his defense.  Its not his attitude.  Not his stat padding consciousness.  Not his dominating rebounding presence in the paint.  Not his inability to close games with questionable decision making. 

Rondo and Doc are the reasons the Celtics have not won more than 1 title since the big 3 were formed.

Why are you all so hard on lightskinsmurf?


Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Snakehead on March 02, 2013, 04:32:02 PM
The Celtics are clearly better without Rondo. 

What part of his game is really missed?  Its not his 65% free throw percentage.  Its not his 24% 3pt percentage.  Its not his defense.  Its not his attitude.  Not his stat padding consciousness.  Not his dominating rebounding presence in the paint.  Not his inability to close games with questionable decision making. 

Rondo and Doc are the reasons the Celtics have not won more than 1 title since the big 3 were formed.

Why are you all so hard on lightskinsmurf?

Because he's wrong?  And I guess so are you.

Or I guess never has a player damaged his team more while making it to All-Star games, dominating playoff games, leading the league in assists, etc.  It's truly remarkable... almost.... nonsensical.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: scaryjerry on March 02, 2013, 04:37:07 PM
The Celtics are clearly better without Rondo. 

What part of his game is really missed?  Its not his 65% free throw percentage.  Its not his 24% 3pt percentage.  Its not his defense.  Its not his attitude.  Not his stat padding consciousness.  Not his dominating rebounding presence in the paint.  Not his inability to close games with questionable decision making. 

Rondo and Doc are the reasons the Celtics have not won more than 1 title since the big 3 were formed.

Why are you all so hard on lightskinsmurf?

Lol. I'd say kgs injury was the biggest reason we only won one title there bub...as a matter of fact if kg wasn't out/hobbled the 2 seasons following our only title of the era..we probably 3 peat with rondo as a main cog.

Wasn't his fault we lost game 7 of the finals or lost last year in 7 to the heat....as a matter of fact he was the reason we made it that far...buy a clue
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Greenback on March 02, 2013, 04:41:12 PM
I forgot to add that Rondo misses more Bunnies than Elmer Fudd
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Snakehead on March 02, 2013, 04:44:15 PM
I forgot to add that Rondo misses more Bunnies than Elmer Fudd

Oh .613 eFG from inside this year, yeah that's so bad man.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12BOS1.HTM

and Pierce shoots .567 at the rim, he must be really bad huh?

http://www.82games.com/1213/12BOS9.HTM
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: scaryjerry on March 02, 2013, 04:47:58 PM
I forgot to add that Rondo misses more Bunnies than Elmer Fudd

Yet led guards in fg% without a reliable jumpshot

Cool
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 05:16:42 PM
It isn't an issue of whether Rondo is a quality player.

It's an issue that he no longer fits with the group of players Ainge has assembled. That is quite clear, and it has been for awhile. As I've said before, he was a perfect fit with three veteran, slowing All-Star scorers.

He is not a fit at all - in fact, he is an impediment - with the group Ainge has assembled right now, led by two veterans who struggle to score every night.

Exacerbated by Rondo's growing laziness on the defensive end of the floor.

Confident Ainge will move him in the off-season. As he should.

  I hope Danny knows better than that. The offense was fine with Rondo once we got things squared away last year, it was pretty good in the playoffs and it started out the year playing fine. I don't think Danny's memory is short enough that he's forgotten the deep playoff runs Rondo's led us on.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 05:19:25 PM
I forgot to add that Rondo misses more Bunnies than Elmer Fudd

  Your analysis is off but at least you have your sense of humor. That was fairly amusing, even if it wasn't at all accurate.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on March 02, 2013, 05:50:42 PM
Celtics are more consistent without Rondo. This isn't a shocker - he has the ball in his hands the entire game and he's super inconsistent in the regular season.

Celtics will struggle in the playoffs without Rondo. He's a star, and stars win playoff games/series. When it matters most, he is one of the best in the league.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 02, 2013, 06:00:10 PM
I forgot to add that Rondo misses more Bunnies than Elmer Fudd

Lol!!!
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Vermont Green on March 02, 2013, 06:08:38 PM
It isn't an issue of whether Rondo is a quality player.

It's an issue that he no longer fits with the group of players Ainge has assembled. That is quite clear, and it has been for awhile. As I've said before, he was a perfect fit with three veteran, slowing All-Star scorers.

He is not a fit at all - in fact, he is an impediment - with the group Ainge has assembled right now, led by two veterans who struggle to score every night.

Exacerbated by Rondo's growing laziness on the defensive end of the floor.

Confident Ainge will move him in the off-season. As he should.

I think Coach Bo is right in general.  I see the "problem" (if you want to call it that) with Rondo is that other teams have now universally figured him out and this will make it very difficult for him to change and just adopt the move the ball mentality that the current team is playing so well with.

This is a nuanced situation and hard to describe in a concise post.  Rondo is a good passer, no doubt, perhaps the best pure passer in the league, but he can't shoot (I know, he has a high EFg% but if you watch the games and come to the conclusion that Rondo is a good shooter, then just don't read any more of my post because you are not going to agree or understand any of it).

The problem is that Doc/Rondo can't figure out what to do with Rondo when he doesn't have the ball.  The other team doesn't cover him so it is like giving them another defender.  For a while they tried having him camp out at the extreme low post (almost under the basket) but that didn't really work.  So it always comes back to you might as well just let Rondo have the ball.  Then he dribbles around, compiles a ton of assists, and no one really likes playing with him (at least that is the story according to Doc).  Along the way, Rondo does make some fantastic plays but actually the team averages more assists when Rondo doesn't play.  For every easy dunk off a flashy pass, there is a shot against a double team because the other team isn't covering Rondo.

And defense, yes, our defense appears better without Rondo.  He seems to like to rebound, they count those, but he doesn't seem to care about just staying in front of him man and fighting through picks (there isn't a stat for that).  I know, I know, in the playoffs, he will be different.

Rondo is a player with unique skills but also some glaring weaknesses.  If we keep Rondo, we need to figure out a way to use him that doesn't kind of clog up the team.  Depending on what we get back, a trade may not be such a bad thing for the team either.

Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: CelticsFan9 on March 02, 2013, 06:13:22 PM
It isn't an issue of whether Rondo is a quality player.

It's an issue that he no longer fits with the group of players Ainge has assembled. That is quite clear, and it has been for awhile. As I've said before, he was a perfect fit with three veteran, slowing All-Star scorers.

He is not a fit at all - in fact, he is an impediment - with the group Ainge has assembled right now, led by two veterans who struggle to score every night.

Exacerbated by Rondo's growing laziness on the defensive end of the floor.

Confident Ainge will move him in the off-season. As he should.

I think Coach Bo is right in general.  I see the "problem" (if you want to call it that) with Rondo is that other teams have now universally figured him out and this will make it very difficult for him to change and just adopt the move the ball mentality that the current team is playing so well with.

This is a nuanced situation and hard to describe in a concise post.  Rondo is a good passer, no doubt, perhaps the best pure passer in the league, but he can't shoot (I know, he has a high EFg% but if you watch the games and come to the conclusion that Rondo is a good shooter, then just don't read any more of my post because you are not going to agree or understand any of it).

The problem is that Doc/Rondo can't figure out what to do with Rondo when he doesn't have the ball.  The other team doesn't cover him so it is like giving them another defender.  For a while they tried having him camp out at the extreme low post (almost under the basket) but that didn't really work.  So it always comes back to you might as well just let Rondo have the ball.  Then he dribbles around, compiles a ton of assists, and no one really likes playing with him (at least that is the story according to Doc).  Along the way, Rondo does make some fantastic plays but actually the team averages more assists when Rondo doesn't play.  For every easy dunk off a flashy pass, there is a shot against a double team because the other team isn't covering Rondo.

And defense, yes, our defense appears better without Rondo.  He seems to like to rebound, they count those, but he doesn't seem to care about just staying in front of him man and fighting through picks (there isn't a stat for that).  I know, I know, in the playoffs, he will be different.

Rondo is a player with unique skills but also some glaring weaknesses.  If we keep Rondo, we need to figure out a way to use him that doesn't kind of clog up the team.  Depending on what we get back, a trade may not be such a bad thing for the team either.

I've always wished Rondo would go into Avery Bradley-mode and make random cuts to the basket when he doesn't have the ball.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 06:30:37 PM
It isn't an issue of whether Rondo is a quality player.

It's an issue that he no longer fits with the group of players Ainge has assembled. That is quite clear, and it has been for awhile. As I've said before, he was a perfect fit with three veteran, slowing All-Star scorers.

He is not a fit at all - in fact, he is an impediment - with the group Ainge has assembled right now, led by two veterans who struggle to score every night.

Exacerbated by Rondo's growing laziness on the defensive end of the floor.

Confident Ainge will move him in the off-season. As he should.

I think Coach Bo is right in general.  I see the "problem" (if you want to call it that) with Rondo is that other teams have now universally figured him out and this will make it very difficult for him to change and just adopt the move the ball mentality that the current team is playing so well with.

This is a nuanced situation and hard to describe in a concise post.  Rondo is a good passer, no doubt, perhaps the best pure passer in the league, but he can't shoot (I know, he has a high EFg% but if you watch the games and come to the conclusion that Rondo is a good shooter, then just don't read any more of my post because you are not going to agree or understand any of it).

The problem is that Doc/Rondo can't figure out what to do with Rondo when he doesn't have the ball.  The other team doesn't cover him so it is like giving them another defender.  For a while they tried having him camp out at the extreme low post (almost under the basket) but that didn't really work.  So it always comes back to you might as well just let Rondo have the ball.  Then he dribbles around, compiles a ton of assists, and no one really likes playing with him (at least that is the story according to Doc).  Along the way, Rondo does make some fantastic plays but actually the team averages more assists when Rondo doesn't play.  For every easy dunk off a flashy pass, there is a shot against a double team because the other team isn't covering Rondo.

  The team's offense is playing about the same without Rondo in spite of playing the bulk of their games without him against bad defensive teams. The team has a lower percentage of their shots assisted when Rondo isn't playing. And the Doc story about people not wanting to play with Rondo was from his rookie year and completely unrelated to what you were attributing it to.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: TheTruthFot18 on March 02, 2013, 06:44:18 PM
TP to the original poster.  This team plays so much better without Rondo.

I have a question for those out there who say this team needs Rondo so badly

How many championships did Rondo ever win for the Celtics, if he is so valuable?

And 2008 doesn't count because I think PJ Brown who was their 3rd back up center played more of a role in the team going all the way than Rondo did.

How far did KG take the wolves in 1997 or Pierce in 2000? Or Kobe or Lebron in their 2nd year? He was clearly overshadowed by HOF players in/late in their prime.

Now look at where the above players were by their 4th, 5th, 6th years and has Rondo not done the same in terms of bringing success to the team?
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: esel1000 on March 02, 2013, 06:45:52 PM
I can't believe we're really having an argument about this... look any player, no matter how good, sometimes has to change parts of their game for the better of the team. Rondo isnt perfect and has made plenty of mistakes, but I have witnessed him do way too much for this team, especially in the moments that matter, to ever say this teams better off without him right now.

This is the regular season... without Rondo last year, we'd have lost to the Sixers. Without him, wouldn't have been to game 7 vs the Heat. So he doesn't show up every regular season game? Big whoop, hes good enough that he doesn't have to put his full effort against a loser team like the Bobcats. PP and KG have games where they seem to not show up and I dont see ANYBODY getting on them for it.

When Rondo came back vs the Heat a couple of seasons ago and played with a dislocated elbow, I knew we truly had a player with heart. You cant teach that kind of heart, and losing it never makes your team better. But ok some of you GMs on here seem to think you know better, so go ahead, do Danny's job for him  and trade him for crap so we can truly fall back to mediocrity.

Sounds fun ;)
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: SCeltic34 on March 02, 2013, 08:00:18 PM
I know that this is a basketball discussion board, but seriously, wait until the playoffs come to assess whether this team is better without Rondo.  I have a strong feeling these silly threads will disappear when it's all said and done.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: jdz101 on March 02, 2013, 08:18:27 PM
I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 02, 2013, 08:45:00 PM
I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: jdz101 on March 02, 2013, 09:40:19 PM
I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Celtics18 on March 02, 2013, 10:33:15 PM
I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others. 
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 02, 2013, 10:39:34 PM
I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others.

We have a pretty balanced attack.

If all goes well, all these players could technically explode for 25 points in a game:
Bradley/Lee/Bass/Crawford/Williams

For 30:
Green

For 40:
KG/Pierce

Gotta hope for some hot games, like Bass's explosive third quarter last year, 17 points
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: ejk3489 on March 02, 2013, 11:33:53 PM
I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others.

We have a pretty balanced attack.

If all goes well, all these players could technically explode for 25 points in a game:
Bradley/Lee/Bass/Crawford/Williams

For 30:
Green

For 40:
KG/Pierce

Gotta hope for some hot games, like Bass's explosive third quarter last year, 17 points

I see what you're saying, but those scenarios are a pretty big stretch.

Lee has only scored more than 25 points 8 times in his career, Bass twice, Avery/TWill once...

Crawford, Green, and Terry are the only guys (aside from Pierce/KG) that I could see going off for more than 20-25 points in a game.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 02, 2013, 11:46:58 PM
I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others.

We have a pretty balanced attack.

If all goes well, all these players could technically explode for 25 points in a game:
Bradley/Lee/Bass/Crawford/Williams

For 30:
Green

For 40:
KG/Pierce

Gotta hope for some hot games, like Bass's explosive third quarter last year, 17 points

I see what you're saying, but those scenarios are a pretty big stretch.

Lee has only scored more than 25 points 8 times in his career, Bass twice, Avery/TWill once...

Crawford, Green, and Terry are the only guys (aside from Pierce/KG) that I could see going off for more than 20-25 points in a game.

Also, if things get right, we hold teams to just 90ppg so we don't need to score as much.

If the Pitbulls keep playin well, Green stays great on D, KG keeps the center strong, we can afford to score less. Then we just need a few 20 point games from Green and Terry, fully possible.

Terry, Pierce, Lee, Bradley, one of them needs to get hot from downtown or we can't win. We need threes. Green is converting at a great clip, but Terry needs to step up like he did vs MIA. One big game from downtown opens up the paint for the rest of the series.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: saltlover on March 03, 2013, 12:37:18 AM
I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others.

We have a pretty balanced attack.

If all goes well, all these players could technically explode for 25 points in a game:
Bradley/Lee/Bass/Crawford/Williams

For 30:
Green

For 40:
KG/Pierce

Gotta hope for some hot games, like Bass's explosive third quarter last year, 17 points

KG score 40???  For real?  I did a quick scan of his game log, and I don't think he's scored 30 or more in a game since his first year in Boston.  I love KG, but he does not have a 40 point game in him, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he never cracks 30 again.  Maybe I missed a game, but 25 is a great output from him at this point.  He's not a scorer at this point in his career.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: LarBrd33 on March 03, 2013, 02:32:11 AM
I mean obviously I was on the "I love rondo, but he's obscenely overrated" train well before he got injured, but this isn't really how I wanted this to play out.  I hoped he would have been exposed after we had traded him for valuable pieces... Not through a season ending and trade-value-killing injury.  Bummer
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: jdz101 on March 03, 2013, 02:52:27 AM
I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others.

I'm talking about the early 2000's mavs that were amazing offensively and got to the conference finals. They had a seriously good point guard in steve nash, but were like 9th or 10th one year and around 14th the next for assists.

My point was that one player or a team getting lots of assists doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good offense. It is a result of the system you're running. The large assist numbers by rondo lead to some fans (especially on here) overrating what he means to a team's overall offensive production. Of course he is a benefit because he is a great player, but high numbers of assists to rondo don't necessarily lead to high offensive production from his teammates.

I was never knocking rondo at all. All I'm saying is that he benefits from a system and so do his numbers.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: crimson_stallion on March 03, 2013, 04:08:08 AM
Oh C'mon, Man...that's close enough, lol

No, it really isn't.  You cannot say somebody flirted with a triple double when they only recorded double figures in ONE category, and didn't record more than 8 in any others.

Maybe if he had 21, 8, 8 and 8 then you could say it...but 21/8/7/6?  It would have taken him at least another full quarter to record the extra two assists and three rebounds, and it could have taken him a whole extra game to record the extra 4 steals. 

I'm talking about the early 2000's mavs that were amazing offensively and got to the conference finals. They had a seriously good point guard in steve nash, but were like 9th or 10th one year and around 14th the next for assists.

My point was that one player or a team getting lots of assists doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good offense. It is a result of the system you're running. The large assist numbers by rondo lead to some fans (especially on here) overrating what he means to a team's overall offensive production. Of course he is a benefit because he is a great player, but high numbers of assists to rondo don't necessarily lead to high offensive production from his teammates.

I was never knocking rondo at all. All I'm saying is that he benefits from a system and so do his numbers.

This is true.  The greatest number that the Rondo homers completely fail to acknowledge is our assist numbers as a team with and without Rondo.  People talk about how many extra baskets are created by his 11 assists a game, but that is a gross exhageration.  Why?  Because last I checked we only average 3 assists more as a team when Rondo is player as opposed to when he isn't.

What does that mean?  It means that when Rondo isn't here we have a lot of other skilled playmakers who collect all of those assists that Rondo isn't getting, so the vast majority (70%) of Rondo's assists are being made by other guys instead.  What happens if Rondo plays?  He records 11 assists, but the rest of the team collectively records 8 assists less because the ball is ALWAYS in Rondo's hands.

Yes that doesn't change the fact that we are 3 assists per game better with Rondo out there (and hence the team DOES generate more assists with him than without him).  But what it shows is that Rondo's "critical importance" to the teams passing game is clearly way overblown.  If we traded Rondo out for a guy who can give us 5 or 6 assists per game without having the ball in his hands 80% of the time, then we probably wouldn't be producing any fewer assists as a team.

Another question.

Offensively, has our team honestly gotten worse (statistically) since Rondo went out?  Has our offensive rating gotten significantly worse?  I'm not asking to be a smart alec because I actually ahven't looked it up recently, but the last time I checked our offensive rating as a team without Rondo was on par with (or slightly better than) it was when he was still here.

Defensively, has our team gotten better?  Yes, clearly it has.  Last I checked we are not ranked 5th in the NBA in defensive rating, and while Rondo was here we were something like 20th.  No that isn't all due to Rondo - getting AB back strengthened our defense dramatially and it's just gotten better and better since then - but the rate of improvement seems to be dramatically high since Rondo went out.

Now I'm still willing to acknowledge that our team IS better with Rondo in the lineup, simply because he has an ability at times to create matchup problems for opposing teams which makes us stronger at key points in games (like in crunch time and closing minutes).  So better with Rondo?  I'll say yes.  Dramatically better?  I'll say no.  Is he irreplacable?  Again, I'll say no.

Taking into consideration our need for scoring, if we (for arguments sake) replaced Rondo with Chris Paul, would we get worse? 

If we replaced him with a healthy Derek Rose, would we get worse?

If we replaced him with a healthy Tony Parker would we get worse? 

I would say that the answer to all of those questions is no.  There are a LOT of guys out there who play PG who we could replace Rondo with who I don't believe would make out team any worse.  It's not just the superstars either.  How about Jeff Teague or Jrue Holiday?  What they give up in 'assists' they would more than make up for with the extra scoring threat.

Andre Miller even? He is not far off Rondo as a playmaker and a passer, and (like Rondo) he has limited range on his jump shot.  I don't think we get significantly worse as a team if we made a trade of Rondo for Miller + others...at least in the short term.  Long term obviously different story. 

So yes Rondo is a very good player and does give us beneftis when he's on the court, but no he isn't irreplacable.


 
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: crimson_stallion on March 03, 2013, 04:19:17 AM
I've played with ball hogs, and I've played with pass first set up PGs.  I hated playing with a ball hog, but if he were on, I'd make sure to set picks for him and if he was off, I'd hit the offensive glass.  With the pass hungry PG, I'd make sure I was ready for the ball at all times. Players need to be MORE engaged with Rondo, lest a pass will hit them in the face.   

Last I checked the role of a great PG is to make everybody on the team better.  A great PG does this by understanding the strengths/weaknesses/limitations of the guys he plays with, and orchestrating the offense accordingly to take advantage of those charactristics.

If you know a certain player on your team has butter fingers (i.e. Bass) then you make sure you get him soft, simple passes that are easy for him to catch while he's not in heavy traffic.

If you know a certain player is a great catch-and-shoot guy then you run plays to create space for him (i.e. Ray Allen's multiple screens) so that you can get him an open shot.

If you know a guy likes to cut back door (i.e. Lee, Bradley) then you run a play to open up the baseline so that they can cut for an easy layup.

If you know a guy is a pure scorer who can score in pretty much any situation (i.e. Pierce) then you can run ISO's, Post him up on smaller guys, etc. 

Likewise if you know a guy likes to create his own shot, you try to get him an ISO or get him the ball in a mistmatch so he can take it to the basket or shoot over a smaller guy.

I belive that up until this season Rondo did this pretty much as well as (if not better than) anybody else in the league.  This season, I just don't feel he's done that.  He seems to play the way HE wants to play, and he expects everybody else on the team to find a way to excel in that scenario.  He'll drive and throw tricky last minute passes to Bass, who will fumble the ball.  He'll leave Green, Lee and Terry sitting in the corner and set him them for catch-and-shoot threes...but all of those guys are better at creating of the dribble. 

He just seems to make the other guy son the team worse, rather than better, but playing them away from their strengths.

At lest this is how it looks to me. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 03, 2013, 05:03:25 AM
I'll stay out of the main "Rondo vs. no Rondo" argument but I will add a side note.

Assist numbers are just as much a representation of how a TEAM plays and where it's offensive emphasis lies, not necessarily just how the individual passes the ball.

Furthermore having an offense that has a high number of assists to an individual or as a whole is an indicator of HOW a team plays the offensive end. Not HOW WELL they play.

A lot of awesome offensive teams the past few years have had lower assist numbers than some would expect.

This is one part of Rondo's game that is vastly overrated. I don't mean his passing ability (this is very good). I mean "oh my god rondo is the leading assist guy in the NBA". Who cares, our offense was still decidedly average.

  Most of the teams with fewer assists have more players that can create their own shot than we usually do.  I'd also say that Rondo leading the league in assists kept the offense from being farther below average. Over the past few years we've been near the bottom of the league in offensive rebounds but we've somewhat offset that with a good fg%. Rondo has a lot to do with that.

A lot of the Dallas teams from a few years back that were excellent offensively with low assist numbers didn't really have guys that were amazing at creating their own shot. Dirk in the post being the exception to that. They had some great shooters though.

I think with Paul Pierce, KG, Terry, Green etc we would have a similar level of offensive talent to those dallas teams.

Which Dallas teams are you referring to?  Their championship squad led the league in assists per game. 

If you don't have a Lebron James, a Kevin Durant, a Carmelo Anthony, or a Kobe Bryant on your team, you'd better be good at moving the ball around to get open shots. 

Or, you better have a guy like Rondo who can get open shots for others.

I'm talking about the early 2000's mavs that were amazing offensively and got to the conference finals. They had a seriously good point guard in steve nash, but were like 9th or 10th one year and around 14th the next for assists.

My point was that one player or a team getting lots of assists doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good offense. It is a result of the system you're running. The large assist numbers by rondo lead to some fans (especially on here) overrating what he means to a team's overall offensive production. Of course he is a benefit because he is a great player, but high numbers of assists to rondo don't necessarily lead to high offensive production from his teammates.

I was never knocking rondo at all. All I'm saying is that he benefits from a system and so do his numbers.

  Dirk and Finley were both good at creating their own shot and Howard was a pretty decent post player. The Celts have a few players that can create their own shot but before this year it was mainly PP and Rondo. Rondo's passing doesn't necessarily lead to high offensive production but it leads to more efficient scoring from easier shots that he creates.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 03, 2013, 05:48:34 AM
Quote
Quote from: GreenFaith1819 on Yesterday at 11:29:05 AM
Oh C'mon, Man...that's close enough, lol

No, it really isn't.  You cannot say somebody flirted with a triple double when they only recorded double figures in ONE category, and didn't record more than 8 in any others.

Maybe if he had 21, 8, 8 and 8 then you could say it...but 21/8/7/6?  It would have taken him at least another full quarter to record the extra two assists and three rebounds, and it could have taken him a whole extra game to record the extra 4 steals.

For Crimson Stallion -

Can you name me another player in that clinching game 6 that put up those kinds of numbers, then? Across the board?

I just think that with the highlight naturally on the Big Three, Rajon Rondo quietly had himself a VERY good game, too.

It is funny how - and this is not just you, CS - how some of us are writing off Rajon Rondo.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 03, 2013, 06:06:37 AM
I'm talking about the early 2000's mavs that were amazing offensively and got to the conference finals. They had a seriously good point guard in steve nash, but were like 9th or 10th one year and around 14th the next for assists.

My point was that one player or a team getting lots of assists doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good offense. It is a result of the system you're running. The large assist numbers by rondo lead to some fans (especially on here) overrating what he means to a team's overall offensive production. Of course he is a benefit because he is a great player, but high numbers of assists to rondo don't necessarily lead to high offensive production from his teammates.

I was never knocking rondo at all. All I'm saying is that he benefits from a system and so do his numbers.

This is true.  The greatest number that the Rondo homers completely fail to acknowledge is our assist numbers as a team with and without Rondo.  People talk about how many extra baskets are created by his 11 assists a game, but that is a gross exhageration.  Why?  Because last I checked we only average 3 assists more as a team when Rondo is player as opposed to when he isn't.

What does that mean?  It means that when Rondo isn't here we have a lot of other skilled playmakers who collect all of those assists that Rondo isn't getting, so the vast majority (70%) of Rondo's assists are being made by other guys instead.  What happens if Rondo plays?  He records 11 assists, but the rest of the team collectively records 8 assists less because the ball is ALWAYS in Rondo's hands.

Yes that doesn't change the fact that we are 3 assists per game better with Rondo out there (and hence the team DOES generate more assists with him than without him).  But what it shows is that Rondo's "critical importance" to the teams passing game is clearly way overblown.  If we traded Rondo out for a guy who can give us 5 or 6 assists per game without having the ball in his hands 80% of the time, then we probably wouldn't be producing any fewer assists as a team.

  Last year around mod-season some Wizards fan decided that Wall was as good a passer as Rondo but the Wizards were just worse shooters than the Celts and their poor shooting cost him a lot of assists. He looked at all of the Wall passes that led directly to a shot or a turnover when there would have been a shot if not for the turnover and compared that to their efficiency aside from that (makes / (misses + turnovers)) ignoring possessions that led to free throws.

  They found that the scoring efficiency from Wall's passes was 44%, the efficiency from all other plays was 35%, and that 9% difference was just over the expected average from an 82games study. They did the same comparison for Rondo and found that while the efficiency from the non-Rondo passes was about the same as the Wizards 35%, the scoring efficiency from Rondo's passes was 56%. the 21% jump was over twice the jump seen by Wall and about 2.5 times the league average.

  So while the team is only getting a few less assists a game without Rondo, it will probably take more possessions to get those assisted baskets. Just compare Rondo to Wall, who seems to be average in how efficient his passes are. Rondo gets 11 assists a game. From his 56% efficiency it would take almost 20 possessions (shots or turnovers) to get those 11 baskets. At Wall's 44% conversion rate it would take 25 possessions to get 11 assists.

  It's not just the assists you need to look at, it's how efficiently we score off of Rondo's passes.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: mctyson on March 03, 2013, 07:55:57 AM
So yes Rondo is a very good player and does give us beneftis when he's on the court, but no he isn't irreplacable.

This is true, and also not true.  There are few players in the league who are irreplaceable - maybe only two in Durant and Lebron.  I would actually argue that KG is near that level for the Celtics, specifically, because of his defense.  But really only a couple players are irreplaceable.

Having said that - Rondo's game is irreplaceable.  He is one of the most unique talents in today'g game and one of my favorite players of the last 25 years.  He is an athletic freak and, possibly, and all time great passer of the basketball.  If we got rid of him and took back someone like Kyle Lowry, it is true that the Celtics might not be that much worse off - they could even be better - but you will never see the kind of games from Lowry that Rondo was capable of.

At the end of the day, we watch pro sports for the competition and the entertainment.  Rondo has both of those qualities in spades, and there are few players alive that can say the same thing.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 03, 2013, 08:01:30 AM
Look, let's just put all of this to rest via the Great Dr. Seuss with  poem: ;D

-I would not trade Rondo for Green Eggs and Ham-

I would not trade Rondo for Green Eggs and Ham

I would not trade him, Sam I Am

I would not trade him for a flake

I would not trade him for Blake

I would not trade him for Russell

I would not trade him because of his hustle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32MjBkENi3M

I would not trade him for Rose

I would not trade him, I suppose

I would not trade him for Paul

I would not trade him, AT ALL.

I would not trade Rajon Rondo for Green Eggs and Ham, I would NOT trade him, Sam I Am.

Now let's stop the "over-rated"...."moody"..."petulant", lol...comments I've seen about our Rajon Rondo since he's been hurt.

The guy has laid it out there on the line for this team...he is not a perfect player by any means, but - to me - he is UNDOUBTEDLY CELTIC.

Let's just be thankful that the "TEAM" has stepped up in his place, and let's look forward to a HEALTHY Rajon Rondo coming back next year and leading this team.

 
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: jdz101 on March 03, 2013, 08:23:29 AM
I'm talking about the early 2000's mavs that were amazing offensively and got to the conference finals. They had a seriously good point guard in steve nash, but were like 9th or 10th one year and around 14th the next for assists.

My point was that one player or a team getting lots of assists doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good offense. It is a result of the system you're running. The large assist numbers by rondo lead to some fans (especially on here) overrating what he means to a team's overall offensive production. Of course he is a benefit because he is a great player, but high numbers of assists to rondo don't necessarily lead to high offensive production from his teammates.

I was never knocking rondo at all. All I'm saying is that he benefits from a system and so do his numbers.

This is true.  The greatest number that the Rondo homers completely fail to acknowledge is our assist numbers as a team with and without Rondo.  People talk about how many extra baskets are created by his 11 assists a game, but that is a gross exhageration.  Why?  Because last I checked we only average 3 assists more as a team when Rondo is player as opposed to when he isn't.

What does that mean?  It means that when Rondo isn't here we have a lot of other skilled playmakers who collect all of those assists that Rondo isn't getting, so the vast majority (70%) of Rondo's assists are being made by other guys instead.  What happens if Rondo plays?  He records 11 assists, but the rest of the team collectively records 8 assists less because the ball is ALWAYS in Rondo's hands.

Yes that doesn't change the fact that we are 3 assists per game better with Rondo out there (and hence the team DOES generate more assists with him than without him).  But what it shows is that Rondo's "critical importance" to the teams passing game is clearly way overblown.  If we traded Rondo out for a guy who can give us 5 or 6 assists per game without having the ball in his hands 80% of the time, then we probably wouldn't be producing any fewer assists as a team.

  Last year around mod-season some Wizards fan decided that Wall was as good a passer as Rondo but the Wizards were just worse shooters than the Celts and their poor shooting cost him a lot of assists. He looked at all of the Wall passes that led directly to a shot or a turnover when there would have been a shot if not for the turnover and compared that to their efficiency aside from that (makes / (misses + turnovers)) ignoring possessions that led to free throws.

  They found that the scoring efficiency from Wall's passes was 44%, the efficiency from all other plays was 35%, and that 9% difference was just over the expected average from an 82games study. They did the same comparison for Rondo and found that while the efficiency from the non-Rondo passes was about the same as the Wizards 35%, the scoring efficiency from Rondo's passes was 56%. the 21% jump was over twice the jump seen by Wall and about 2.5 times the league average.

  So while the team is only getting a few less assists a game without Rondo, it will probably take more possessions to get those assisted baskets. Just compare Rondo to Wall, who seems to be average in how efficient his passes are. Rondo gets 11 assists a game. From his 56% efficiency it would take almost 20 possessions (shots or turnovers) to get those 11 baskets. At Wall's 44% conversion rate it would take 25 possessions to get 11 assists.

  It's not just the assists you need to look at, it's how efficiently we score off of Rondo's passes.

I don't think rondo being clever and a brilliant executor of passes was ever called into question. A statistic like the one above just feeds the beast of "rondo only passes when he knows he'll get an assist" though. Not saying I'm part of that beast but rondo does benefit from being given the license to hold or dribble the ball for however long it takes during the possession until he does get an assist.

This has been a very effective system in previous years but this year's personnel seem to benefit greatly from playing without that restriction on them.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 03, 2013, 08:31:29 AM
I'm talking about the early 2000's mavs that were amazing offensively and got to the conference finals. They had a seriously good point guard in steve nash, but were like 9th or 10th one year and around 14th the next for assists.

My point was that one player or a team getting lots of assists doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good offense. It is a result of the system you're running. The large assist numbers by rondo lead to some fans (especially on here) overrating what he means to a team's overall offensive production. Of course he is a benefit because he is a great player, but high numbers of assists to rondo don't necessarily lead to high offensive production from his teammates.

I was never knocking rondo at all. All I'm saying is that he benefits from a system and so do his numbers.

This is true.  The greatest number that the Rondo homers completely fail to acknowledge is our assist numbers as a team with and without Rondo.  People talk about how many extra baskets are created by his 11 assists a game, but that is a gross exhageration.  Why?  Because last I checked we only average 3 assists more as a team when Rondo is player as opposed to when he isn't.

What does that mean?  It means that when Rondo isn't here we have a lot of other skilled playmakers who collect all of those assists that Rondo isn't getting, so the vast majority (70%) of Rondo's assists are being made by other guys instead.  What happens if Rondo plays?  He records 11 assists, but the rest of the team collectively records 8 assists less because the ball is ALWAYS in Rondo's hands.

Yes that doesn't change the fact that we are 3 assists per game better with Rondo out there (and hence the team DOES generate more assists with him than without him).  But what it shows is that Rondo's "critical importance" to the teams passing game is clearly way overblown.  If we traded Rondo out for a guy who can give us 5 or 6 assists per game without having the ball in his hands 80% of the time, then we probably wouldn't be producing any fewer assists as a team.

  Last year around mod-season some Wizards fan decided that Wall was as good a passer as Rondo but the Wizards were just worse shooters than the Celts and their poor shooting cost him a lot of assists. He looked at all of the Wall passes that led directly to a shot or a turnover when there would have been a shot if not for the turnover and compared that to their efficiency aside from that (makes / (misses + turnovers)) ignoring possessions that led to free throws.

  They found that the scoring efficiency from Wall's passes was 44%, the efficiency from all other plays was 35%, and that 9% difference was just over the expected average from an 82games study. They did the same comparison for Rondo and found that while the efficiency from the non-Rondo passes was about the same as the Wizards 35%, the scoring efficiency from Rondo's passes was 56%. the 21% jump was over twice the jump seen by Wall and about 2.5 times the league average.

  So while the team is only getting a few less assists a game without Rondo, it will probably take more possessions to get those assisted baskets. Just compare Rondo to Wall, who seems to be average in how efficient his passes are. Rondo gets 11 assists a game. From his 56% efficiency it would take almost 20 possessions (shots or turnovers) to get those 11 baskets. At Wall's 44% conversion rate it would take 25 possessions to get 11 assists.

  It's not just the assists you need to look at, it's how efficiently we score off of Rondo's passes.

I don't think rondo being clever and a brilliant executor of passes was ever called into question. A statistic like the one above just feeds the beast of "rondo only passes when he knows he'll get an assist" though. Not saying I'm part of that beast but rondo does benefit from being given the license to hold or dribble the ball for however long it takes during the possession until he does get an assist.

This has been a very effective system in previous years but this year's personnel seem to benefit greatly from playing without that restriction on them.

Agreed
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Kane3387 on March 03, 2013, 09:47:57 AM
Look, let's just put all of this to rest via the Great Dr. Seuss with  poem: ;D

-I would not trade Rondo for Green Eggs and Ham-

I would not trade Rondo for Green Eggs and Ham

I would not trade him, Sam I Am

I would not trade him for a flake

I would not trade him for Blake

I would not trade him for Russell

I would not trade him because of his hustle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32MjBkENi3M

I would not trade him for Rose

I would not trade him, I suppose

I would not trade him for Paul

I would not trade him, AT ALL.

I would not trade Rajon Rondo for Green Eggs and Ham, I would NOT trade him, Sam I Am.

Now let's stop the "over-rated"...."moody"..."petulant", lol...comments I've seen about our Rajon Rondo since he's been hurt.

The guy has laid it out there on the line for this team...he is not a perfect player by any means, but - to me - he is UNDOUBTEDLY CELTIC.

Let's just be thankful that the "TEAM" has stepped up in his place, and let's look forward to a HEALTHY Rajon Rondo coming back next year and leading this team.

Tp
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 03, 2013, 11:42:12 AM
I'm talking about the early 2000's mavs that were amazing offensively and got to the conference finals. They had a seriously good point guard in steve nash, but were like 9th or 10th one year and around 14th the next for assists.

My point was that one player or a team getting lots of assists doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good offense. It is a result of the system you're running. The large assist numbers by rondo lead to some fans (especially on here) overrating what he means to a team's overall offensive production. Of course he is a benefit because he is a great player, but high numbers of assists to rondo don't necessarily lead to high offensive production from his teammates.

I was never knocking rondo at all. All I'm saying is that he benefits from a system and so do his numbers.

This is true.  The greatest number that the Rondo homers completely fail to acknowledge is our assist numbers as a team with and without Rondo.  People talk about how many extra baskets are created by his 11 assists a game, but that is a gross exhageration.  Why?  Because last I checked we only average 3 assists more as a team when Rondo is player as opposed to when he isn't.

What does that mean?  It means that when Rondo isn't here we have a lot of other skilled playmakers who collect all of those assists that Rondo isn't getting, so the vast majority (70%) of Rondo's assists are being made by other guys instead.  What happens if Rondo plays?  He records 11 assists, but the rest of the team collectively records 8 assists less because the ball is ALWAYS in Rondo's hands.

Yes that doesn't change the fact that we are 3 assists per game better with Rondo out there (and hence the team DOES generate more assists with him than without him).  But what it shows is that Rondo's "critical importance" to the teams passing game is clearly way overblown.  If we traded Rondo out for a guy who can give us 5 or 6 assists per game without having the ball in his hands 80% of the time, then we probably wouldn't be producing any fewer assists as a team.

  Last year around mod-season some Wizards fan decided that Wall was as good a passer as Rondo but the Wizards were just worse shooters than the Celts and their poor shooting cost him a lot of assists. He looked at all of the Wall passes that led directly to a shot or a turnover when there would have been a shot if not for the turnover and compared that to their efficiency aside from that (makes / (misses + turnovers)) ignoring possessions that led to free throws.

  They found that the scoring efficiency from Wall's passes was 44%, the efficiency from all other plays was 35%, and that 9% difference was just over the expected average from an 82games study. They did the same comparison for Rondo and found that while the efficiency from the non-Rondo passes was about the same as the Wizards 35%, the scoring efficiency from Rondo's passes was 56%. the 21% jump was over twice the jump seen by Wall and about 2.5 times the league average.

  So while the team is only getting a few less assists a game without Rondo, it will probably take more possessions to get those assisted baskets. Just compare Rondo to Wall, who seems to be average in how efficient his passes are. Rondo gets 11 assists a game. From his 56% efficiency it would take almost 20 possessions (shots or turnovers) to get those 11 baskets. At Wall's 44% conversion rate it would take 25 possessions to get 11 assists.

  It's not just the assists you need to look at, it's how efficiently we score off of Rondo's passes.

I don't think rondo being clever and a brilliant executor of passes was ever called into question. A statistic like the one above just feeds the beast of "rondo only passes when he knows he'll get an assist" though. Not saying I'm part of that beast but rondo does benefit from being given the license to hold or dribble the ball for however long it takes during the possession until he does get an assist.

  What I said was completely unrelated to "rondo only passes when he knows he'll get an assist". And while it's true that Rondo benefits from having the ball in his hands it's also true that the team benefits from Rondo having the ball in his hands. Look at any good offensive player, wouldn't you say that they benefit from having the ball as much or being allowed to shoot as much as they do?

This has been a very effective system in previous years but this year's personnel seem to benefit greatly from playing without that restriction on them.

  I'd still say that's somewhat overblown. If you look at the team in January (aside from Rondo playing hurt) Paul and Terry were both shooting poorly due to injuries, Wilcox was out of the lineup and Green (still getting healthier/re-acclimated to playing) was playing well in spurts but not as consistent.

  If you look at the offense since Rondo's been out, with Paul and Terry being healthy and playing well, Green playing better than we've ever seen him play in Boston, Wilcox taking Collins' minutes and the guards playing well you'd have to admit that we're close to firing on all cylinders right now. But then consider that the Rondo-less team, while playing about as good as you could expect them to on offense, aren't playing that much better than when our best offensive players were struggling due to injuries. Couple that with the thought that out of our 15 opponents since Rondo left only *3* teams played better than average defense (and remember how we looked against the Bulls last month). Then consider that our best offensive play this year came in the first month or so of the season when Rondo was healthy and controlling the ball. It's easy to argue that, while a player or two benefit from Rondo being out the team as a whole doesn't.

 
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: celtics2 on March 03, 2013, 01:58:59 PM
I know that this is a basketball discussion board, but seriously, wait until the playoffs come to assess whether this team is better without Rondo.  I have a strong feeling these silly threads will disappear when it's all said and done.

I don't think the Celts will go far in the Playoffs with or without Rondo. I don't like the Celts against Miami or NY. Indy would be a better fit for the 1st round. Trade the often injured Rondo. He certainly won't make it back this Season. Enjoy the Team for what it is. Better without Rondo. Dennis Johnson knew how to play point as a mediocre guard. He got rid of the ball asap to Bird, McHale or the Chief. They got paid more than him for a reason. Rondo never got that point. Allen knew it was useless running around like a maniac waiting for Rondo to spoon feed his lazer like shooting. So he flew the coup for less $$. This was supposed to be a pass the ball up the court, not dribble up through double teams wasting time. Pierce KG and Allen took more punishment then warranted. End of Seasons, nothing left in the tank. That was Doc's fault because he couldn't control Rondo. Rondo's qualities are speed and court vision, however, between the ears is a partial vacuum.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: nickagneta on March 03, 2013, 02:05:58 PM
I know that this is a basketball discussion board, but seriously, wait until the playoffs come to assess whether this team is better without Rondo.  I have a strong feeling these silly threads will disappear when it's all said and done.

I don't think the Celts will go far in the Playoffs with or without Rondo. I don't like the Celts against Miami or NY. Indy would be a better fit for the 1st round. Trade the often injured Rondo. He certainly won't make it back this Season. Enjoy the Team for what it is. Better without Rondo. Dennis Johnson knew how to play point as a mediocre guard. He got rid of the ball asap to Bird, McHale or the Chief. They got paid more than him for a reason. Rondo never got that point. Allen knew it was useless running around like a maniac waiting for Rondo to spoon feed his lazer like shooting. So he flew the coup for less $$. This was supposed to be a pass the ball up the court, not dribble up through double teams wasting time. Pierce KG and Allen took more punishment then warranted. End of Seasons, nothing left in the tank. That was Doc's fault because he couldn't control Rondo. Rondo's qualities are speed and court vision, however, between the ears is a partial vacuum.
Your entire post's credibility was lost calling Dennis Johnson "a mediocre guard" who just "got rid of the ball asap to Bird, McHale or the Chief."

Clearly, you know not of what you speak if you think Dennis Johnson was just some middle of the road guard.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: celtics2 on March 03, 2013, 02:21:11 PM

KG score 40???  For real?  I did a quick scan of his game log, and I don't think he's scored 30 or more in a game since his first year in Boston.  I love KG, but he does not have a 40 point game in him, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he never cracks 30 again.  Maybe I missed a game, but 25 is a great output from him at this point.  He's not a scorer at this point in his career.
[/quote]

This Team still has enough talent without Rondo to stay above 500 and make the Playoffs. Doesn't mean much if it's 5-8 spot but that's the best we got right now. Rondo will not make the number go up and could complicate things. He doesn't make a weak Team stronger yet excels with the Big 3's opening act. I say do him a favor,trade him out West to a Team that could profit by his gifts and make a leap up. . Assuming he will be NBA ready again.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: wahz on March 03, 2013, 02:32:10 PM
That post, including the phrase "Dennis Johnson mediocre point guard"  has to go into a top ten post hall of shame here.

Its was nice to have a reason to think about how great he was again. I was usually begging for him to take the last shot, as he was as fearless and clutch as Larry. I loved those line drive jumpers that would rattle down in the last few minutes of the game. Probably nearly as great a defender as Chaney who I'd have on a first team all defense team. And lead a Sonics team to a title before getting to Boston, averaging 23-6-6 for the series. And named Finals MVP
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on March 03, 2013, 02:49:42 PM
I feel so bad for Rondo.

He laid it out for this team. Won with this team, essentially the best player on this team and yet people are still hating on him and his style of play.

People might say we're better off without Rondo, I believe the Captain disagrees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4aSfjV6lTk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4aSfjV6lTk)

One question for everyone, when Rondo was healthy and everybody stepped up like they are stepping up now (Jet hitting his shots, Green scoring, everyone playing with effort and energy) how much games would we lose?
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 03, 2013, 02:51:55 PM
I know that this is a basketball discussion board, but seriously, wait until the playoffs come to assess whether this team is better without Rondo.  I have a strong feeling these silly threads will disappear when it's all said and done.

I don't think the Celts will go far in the Playoffs with or without Rondo. I don't like the Celts against Miami or NY. Indy would be a better fit for the 1st round. Trade the often injured Rondo. He certainly won't make it back this Season. Enjoy the Team for what it is. Better without Rondo. Dennis Johnson knew how to play point as a mediocre guard. He got rid of the ball asap to Bird, McHale or the Chief. They got paid more than him for a reason. Rondo never got that point. Allen knew it was useless running around like a maniac waiting for Rondo to spoon feed his lazer like shooting. So he flew the coup for less $$. This was supposed to be a pass the ball up the court, not dribble up through double teams wasting time. Pierce KG and Allen took more punishment then warranted. End of Seasons, nothing left in the tank. That was Doc's fault because he couldn't control Rondo. Rondo's qualities are speed and court vision, however, between the ears is a partial vacuum.
Your entire post's credibility was lost calling Dennis Johnson "a mediocre guard" who just "got rid of the ball asap to Bird, McHale or the Chief."

Clearly, you know not of what you speak if you think Dennis Johnson was just some middle of the road guard.

Nice new logo nick. I like this one alot more.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 03, 2013, 02:54:35 PM
That video proves nothing yoki. First of all it was the very first game he didn't play. Secondly even if everyone in that locker room liked this celtics team more without rondo of course they wouldn't let that be known to the media.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 03, 2013, 02:57:40 PM
I do think we should cool off on the rondo talk completely until after the season. Rondo is not apart of this years celtics team. Hes not important right now.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on March 03, 2013, 03:05:33 PM
I know that this is a basketball discussion board, but seriously, wait until the playoffs come to assess whether this team is better without Rondo.  I have a strong feeling these silly threads will disappear when it's all said and done.

I don't think the Celts will go far in the Playoffs with or without Rondo. I don't like the Celts against Miami or NY. Indy would be a better fit for the 1st round. Trade the often injured Rondo. He certainly won't make it back this Season. Enjoy the Team for what it is. Better without Rondo. Dennis Johnson knew how to play point as a mediocre guard. He got rid of the ball asap to Bird, McHale or the Chief. They got paid more than him for a reason. Rondo never got that point. Allen knew it was useless running around like a maniac waiting for Rondo to spoon feed his lazer like shooting. So he flew the coup for less $$. This was supposed to be a pass the ball up the court, not dribble up through double teams wasting time. Pierce KG and Allen took more punishment then warranted. End of Seasons, nothing left in the tank. That was Doc's fault because he couldn't control Rondo. Rondo's qualities are speed and court vision, however, between the ears is a partial vacuum.

You lost me at DJ "as a mediocre point guard". If he's mediocre then I don't know what to call the other starting PG's in that era.

Ray got his shots, if anything he's the first option on offense. The play runs on him, so for him to say that he didn't get the ball from Rondo is wrong.

Also, have you seen how Tony Parker and Kyrie Irving play? They pretty much similar, the only difference is they shoot the ball more than Rondo does. But they all run through screens until they get to the lane and decide after. No one seems to be complaining in what they do.

And no, we're not better without Rondo. One thing most folks don't realize, outside of Paul, no one in this team can PENETRATE to the rim effectively. Rondo gives us that, he finds open people in doing so as well. Not his fault the guys we're shooting bricks when he was healthy, otherwise we could have won more games.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on March 03, 2013, 03:09:05 PM
That video proves nothing yoki. First of all it was the very first game he didn't play. Secondly even if everyone in that locker room liked this celtics team more without rondo of course they wouldn't let that be known to the media.

It doesn't prove nothing? Did you see Pierce scratch his head staring blankly in the stands looking like he's thinking "oh boy, we're in trouble"? The face tells it all. I mean no disrespect but you gotta be kidding me...
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: ChainSmokingLikeDino on March 03, 2013, 03:09:24 PM
I know that this is a basketball discussion board, but seriously, wait until the playoffs come to assess whether this team is better without Rondo.  I have a strong feeling these silly threads will disappear when it's all said and done.

I don't think the Celts will go far in the Playoffs with or without Rondo. I don't like the Celts against Miami or NY. Indy would be a better fit for the 1st round. Trade the often injured Rondo. He certainly won't make it back this Season. Enjoy the Team for what it is. Better without Rondo. Dennis Johnson knew how to play point as a mediocre guard. He got rid of the ball asap to Bird, McHale or the Chief. They got paid more than him for a reason. Rondo never got that point. Allen knew it was useless running around like a maniac waiting for Rondo to spoon feed his lazer like shooting. So he flew the coup for less $$. This was supposed to be a pass the ball up the court, not dribble up through double teams wasting time. Pierce KG and Allen took more punishment then warranted. End of Seasons, nothing left in the tank. That was Doc's fault because he couldn't control Rondo. Rondo's qualities are speed and court vision, however, between the ears is a partial vacuum.
Your entire post's credibility was lost calling Dennis Johnson "a mediocre guard" who just "got rid of the ball asap to Bird, McHale or the Chief."

Clearly, you know not of what you speak if you think Dennis Johnson was just some middle of the road guard.

http://www.celticstown.com/2011/06/29/scalabrine-rondo-is-the-smartest-player-ive-ever-played-with/

I honestly don't know how anyone who has watched him play, or listened/read to any good writers, players, coaches etc. could say that there is a vacuum between Rondo's ears. Though, as Nick pointed out, if your idea of a mediocre PG is Dennis Johnson I am reading with one incredibly large grain of salt.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 03, 2013, 03:16:57 PM
That video proves nothing yoki. First of all it was the very first game he didn't play. Secondly even if everyone in that locker room liked this celtics team more without rondo of course they wouldn't let that be known to the media.

It doesn't prove nothing? Did you see Pierce scratch his head staring blankly in the stands looking like he's thinking "oh boy, we're in trouble"? The face tells it all. I mean no disrespect but you gotta be kidding me...

He looked shocked to me and upset for his teammate. He didn't at all look like "Oh boy we're in trouble" I guess if you really wanted the video to look that way i can kinda see how you would say that but I don't see it without reaching.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: jdz101 on March 03, 2013, 03:42:09 PM
I'm talking about the early 2000's mavs that were amazing offensively and got to the conference finals. They had a seriously good point guard in steve nash, but were like 9th or 10th one year and around 14th the next for assists.

My point was that one player or a team getting lots of assists doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good offense. It is a result of the system you're running. The large assist numbers by rondo lead to some fans (especially on here) overrating what he means to a team's overall offensive production. Of course he is a benefit because he is a great player, but high numbers of assists to rondo don't necessarily lead to high offensive production from his teammates.

I was never knocking rondo at all. All I'm saying is that he benefits from a system and so do his numbers.

This is true.  The greatest number that the Rondo homers completely fail to acknowledge is our assist numbers as a team with and without Rondo.  People talk about how many extra baskets are created by his 11 assists a game, but that is a gross exhageration.  Why?  Because last I checked we only average 3 assists more as a team when Rondo is player as opposed to when he isn't.

What does that mean?  It means that when Rondo isn't here we have a lot of other skilled playmakers who collect all of those assists that Rondo isn't getting, so the vast majority (70%) of Rondo's assists are being made by other guys instead.  What happens if Rondo plays?  He records 11 assists, but the rest of the team collectively records 8 assists less because the ball is ALWAYS in Rondo's hands.

Yes that doesn't change the fact that we are 3 assists per game better with Rondo out there (and hence the team DOES generate more assists with him than without him).  But what it shows is that Rondo's "critical importance" to the teams passing game is clearly way overblown.  If we traded Rondo out for a guy who can give us 5 or 6 assists per game without having the ball in his hands 80% of the time, then we probably wouldn't be producing any fewer assists as a team.

  Last year around mod-season some Wizards fan decided that Wall was as good a passer as Rondo but the Wizards were just worse shooters than the Celts and their poor shooting cost him a lot of assists. He looked at all of the Wall passes that led directly to a shot or a turnover when there would have been a shot if not for the turnover and compared that to their efficiency aside from that (makes / (misses + turnovers)) ignoring possessions that led to free throws.

  They found that the scoring efficiency from Wall's passes was 44%, the efficiency from all other plays was 35%, and that 9% difference was just over the expected average from an 82games study. They did the same comparison for Rondo and found that while the efficiency from the non-Rondo passes was about the same as the Wizards 35%, the scoring efficiency from Rondo's passes was 56%. the 21% jump was over twice the jump seen by Wall and about 2.5 times the league average.

  So while the team is only getting a few less assists a game without Rondo, it will probably take more possessions to get those assisted baskets. Just compare Rondo to Wall, who seems to be average in how efficient his passes are. Rondo gets 11 assists a game. From his 56% efficiency it would take almost 20 possessions (shots or turnovers) to get those 11 baskets. At Wall's 44% conversion rate it would take 25 possessions to get 11 assists.

  It's not just the assists you need to look at, it's how efficiently we score off of Rondo's passes.

I don't think rondo being clever and a brilliant executor of passes was ever called into question. A statistic like the one above just feeds the beast of "rondo only passes when he knows he'll get an assist" though. Not saying I'm part of that beast but rondo does benefit from being given the license to hold or dribble the ball for however long it takes during the possession until he does get an assist.

  What I said was completely unrelated to "rondo only passes when he knows he'll get an assist". And while it's true that Rondo benefits from having the ball in his hands it's also true that the team benefits from Rondo having the ball in his hands. Look at any good offensive player, wouldn't you say that they benefit from having the ball as much or being allowed to shoot as much as they do?

This has been a very effective system in previous years but this year's personnel seem to benefit greatly from playing without that restriction on them.

  I'd still say that's somewhat overblown. If you look at the team in January (aside from Rondo playing hurt) Paul and Terry were both shooting poorly due to injuries, Wilcox was out of the lineup and Green (still getting healthier/re-acclimated to playing) was playing well in spurts but not as consistent.

  If you look at the offense since Rondo's been out, with Paul and Terry being healthy and playing well, Green playing better than we've ever seen him play in Boston, Wilcox taking Collins' minutes and the guards playing well you'd have to admit that we're close to firing on all cylinders right now. But then consider that the Rondo-less team, while playing about as good as you could expect them to on offense, aren't playing that much better than when our best offensive players were struggling due to injuries. Couple that with the thought that out of our 15 opponents since Rondo left only *3* teams played better than average defense (and remember how we looked against the Bulls last month). Then consider that our best offensive play this year came in the first month or so of the season when Rondo was healthy and controlling the ball. It's easy to argue that, while a player or two benefit from Rondo being out the team as a whole doesn't.


As I have said previously in above quotes, obviously the team as a whole will suffer when rondo is out because, overall, he is a very good player and he has some great qualities. That said with such a ball dominant point guard that accumulates the sort of stat lines that rondo does, I expected the drop off in offensive production to be much larger than is currently the case after his injury.

You only had to look at the clippers without Chris Paul to see what sort of a shambles their offense was without him. Whilst the clippers went on an immediate losing skid with Paul out, the celtics seem to have trended in the opposite direction, even whilst missing a seriously good contributor in sully. You can attribute this to players having niggling injuries and not being 100% fit while rondo was there if you want, but personally I think that's a bit of a cop out.

My point all along was that rondo, whilst being an all-star does benefit greatly from HOW the celtics play offensively, especially in the assist column. Observing how good Paul, Kevin and Jeff are at executing offensively makes you go "huh, maybe one of the best passers in the game SHOULD be getting 10 assists a game without much trouble, and maybe we shouldn't be making such a big deal out of it."
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Rtpas11 on March 03, 2013, 04:10:29 PM
Rondo is an extremely great player, just not a great fit for this team. I have always stood by & remain standing by that statement for 3+ years now.

The championship season was really Sam Cassell & Eddie House running the point. Rondo's offensive liability really hurt the team. Since 2008 Rondo has improved dramatically well. The problem with Rondo is his ball dominance, & reluctance to think push & try to score 1st before setting up. This team & the ones in the past never needed such a point guard but were all forced to accept the system of play that Doc designed. Its really Doc & Rondo's fault.

Rondo most likely will be traded next year. I don't see the use for him anymore especially if we're still able to play consistent ball (even better) with the core currently in use. Danny isn't going to keep Rondo next year, not with the owners preaching that they like how this team is playing right now (secret coded: since Rondo went down). Rondo will be a Laker next year & D12 will be a Celtic after the sign & trade.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 03, 2013, 04:30:20 PM
The championship season was really Sam Cassell & Eddie House running the point.

  That's an absolutely absurd statement. Cassell and House combined to total 146/37/43 and 13 steals in 430 minutes. Rondo went for a total of 266/107/172 and 45 steals in 830 minutes. Did you even see those playoffs?
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 03, 2013, 04:46:02 PM
I'm talking about the early 2000's mavs that were amazing offensively and got to the conference finals. They had a seriously good point guard in steve nash, but were like 9th or 10th one year and around 14th the next for assists.

My point was that one player or a team getting lots of assists doesn't necessarily mean that you have a good offense. It is a result of the system you're running. The large assist numbers by rondo lead to some fans (especially on here) overrating what he means to a team's overall offensive production. Of course he is a benefit because he is a great player, but high numbers of assists to rondo don't necessarily lead to high offensive production from his teammates.

I was never knocking rondo at all. All I'm saying is that he benefits from a system and so do his numbers.

This is true.  The greatest number that the Rondo homers completely fail to acknowledge is our assist numbers as a team with and without Rondo.  People talk about how many extra baskets are created by his 11 assists a game, but that is a gross exhageration.  Why?  Because last I checked we only average 3 assists more as a team when Rondo is player as opposed to when he isn't.

What does that mean?  It means that when Rondo isn't here we have a lot of other skilled playmakers who collect all of those assists that Rondo isn't getting, so the vast majority (70%) of Rondo's assists are being made by other guys instead.  What happens if Rondo plays?  He records 11 assists, but the rest of the team collectively records 8 assists less because the ball is ALWAYS in Rondo's hands.

Yes that doesn't change the fact that we are 3 assists per game better with Rondo out there (and hence the team DOES generate more assists with him than without him).  But what it shows is that Rondo's "critical importance" to the teams passing game is clearly way overblown.  If we traded Rondo out for a guy who can give us 5 or 6 assists per game without having the ball in his hands 80% of the time, then we probably wouldn't be producing any fewer assists as a team.

  Last year around mod-season some Wizards fan decided that Wall was as good a passer as Rondo but the Wizards were just worse shooters than the Celts and their poor shooting cost him a lot of assists. He looked at all of the Wall passes that led directly to a shot or a turnover when there would have been a shot if not for the turnover and compared that to their efficiency aside from that (makes / (misses + turnovers)) ignoring possessions that led to free throws.

  They found that the scoring efficiency from Wall's passes was 44%, the efficiency from all other plays was 35%, and that 9% difference was just over the expected average from an 82games study. They did the same comparison for Rondo and found that while the efficiency from the non-Rondo passes was about the same as the Wizards 35%, the scoring efficiency from Rondo's passes was 56%. the 21% jump was over twice the jump seen by Wall and about 2.5 times the league average.

  So while the team is only getting a few less assists a game without Rondo, it will probably take more possessions to get those assisted baskets. Just compare Rondo to Wall, who seems to be average in how efficient his passes are. Rondo gets 11 assists a game. From his 56% efficiency it would take almost 20 possessions (shots or turnovers) to get those 11 baskets. At Wall's 44% conversion rate it would take 25 possessions to get 11 assists.

  It's not just the assists you need to look at, it's how efficiently we score off of Rondo's passes.

I don't think rondo being clever and a brilliant executor of passes was ever called into question. A statistic like the one above just feeds the beast of "rondo only passes when he knows he'll get an assist" though. Not saying I'm part of that beast but rondo does benefit from being given the license to hold or dribble the ball for however long it takes during the possession until he does get an assist.

  What I said was completely unrelated to "rondo only passes when he knows he'll get an assist". And while it's true that Rondo benefits from having the ball in his hands it's also true that the team benefits from Rondo having the ball in his hands. Look at any good offensive player, wouldn't you say that they benefit from having the ball as much or being allowed to shoot as much as they do?

This has been a very effective system in previous years but this year's personnel seem to benefit greatly from playing without that restriction on them.

  I'd still say that's somewhat overblown. If you look at the team in January (aside from Rondo playing hurt) Paul and Terry were both shooting poorly due to injuries, Wilcox was out of the lineup and Green (still getting healthier/re-acclimated to playing) was playing well in spurts but not as consistent.

  If you look at the offense since Rondo's been out, with Paul and Terry being healthy and playing well, Green playing better than we've ever seen him play in Boston, Wilcox taking Collins' minutes and the guards playing well you'd have to admit that we're close to firing on all cylinders right now. But then consider that the Rondo-less team, while playing about as good as you could expect them to on offense, aren't playing that much better than when our best offensive players were struggling due to injuries. Couple that with the thought that out of our 15 opponents since Rondo left only *3* teams played better than average defense (and remember how we looked against the Bulls last month). Then consider that our best offensive play this year came in the first month or so of the season when Rondo was healthy and controlling the ball. It's easy to argue that, while a player or two benefit from Rondo being out the team as a whole doesn't.


As I have said previously in above quotes, obviously the team as a whole will suffer when rondo is out because, overall, he is a very good player and he has some great qualities. That said with such a ball dominant point guard that accumulates the sort of stat lines that rondo does, I expected the drop off in offensive production to be much larger than is currently the case after his injury.

You only had to look at the clippers without Chris Paul to see what sort of a shambles their offense was without him. Whilst the clippers went on an immediate losing skid with Paul out, the celtics seem to have trended in the opposite direction, even whilst missing a seriously good contributor in sully. You can attribute this to players having niggling injuries and not being 100% fit while rondo was there if you want, but personally I think that's a bit of a cop out.

  If you just look at PP and Jet they're taking combining for 7 more points on 2 more shots since Rondo's been out. That's the difference between being 25th in offense and being 9th. Again, it's not the only reason we've been better but ignoring it seems a little silly.

My point all along was that rondo, whilst being an all-star does benefit greatly from HOW the celtics play offensively, especially in the assist column. Observing how good Paul, Kevin and Jeff are at executing offensively makes you go "huh, maybe one of the best passers in the game SHOULD be getting 10 assists a game without much trouble, and maybe we shouldn't be making such a big deal out of it."

  I'd say the opposite is true. If you look at the Celts teams over the last few years PP/KG/RA combine to average more assists than almost any other 2-3-4 grouping in the league (clearly LeBron's teams would likely be better, but that's about it). When Rondo passes the ball to one of the main scorers on his team they're more likely to pass instead of shoot than the scorers on other teams. If Rondo's passes are less likely to end up as a shot it's hard to claim it's easier for him to get assists.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: celtics2 on March 03, 2013, 04:54:48 PM
That post, including the phrase "Dennis Johnson mediocre point guard"  has to go into a top ten post hall of shame here.

Its was nice to have a reason to think about how great he was again. I was usually begging for him to take the last shot, as he was as fearless and clutch as Larry. I loved those line drive jumpers that would rattle down in the last few minutes of the game. Probably nearly as great a defender as Chaney who I'd have on a first team all defense team. And lead a Sonics team to a title before getting to Boston, averaging 23-6-6 for the series. And named Finals MVP

My positioning DJ as mediocre was wrong. Upgraded to *Good*

Now, DJ as clutch as LB, not in a lifetime!
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: SHAQATTACK on March 03, 2013, 05:20:29 PM
don't pay alot of attention to Rondos absence anymore,  the team looks so much better most of the time , but not always . Rondo had his great moments.

I really miss Sully's play,  I like the Bigs and watching the battles underneath the rim,  and really liked what Barbosa did .

for me Rondo is just trade bait for a star impact Big...... like Milsap , ect...
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 03, 2013, 05:27:09 PM
That post, including the phrase "Dennis Johnson mediocre point guard"  has to go into a top ten post hall of shame here.

Its was nice to have a reason to think about how great he was again. I was usually begging for him to take the last shot, as he was as fearless and clutch as Larry. I loved those line drive jumpers that would rattle down in the last few minutes of the game. Probably nearly as great a defender as Chaney who I'd have on a first team all defense team. And lead a Sonics team to a title before getting to Boston, averaging 23-6-6 for the series. And named Finals MVP

My positioning DJ as mediocre was wrong. Upgraded to *Good*

Now, DJ as clutch as LB, not in a lifetime!

  DJ was a great clutch player who's deservedly in the hall of fame. He was significantly better than you think he was.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Neurotic Guy on March 03, 2013, 05:35:58 PM
That post, including the phrase "Dennis Johnson mediocre point guard"  has to go into a top ten post hall of shame here.

Its was nice to have a reason to think about how great he was again. I was usually begging for him to take the last shot, as he was as fearless and clutch as Larry. I loved those line drive jumpers that would rattle down in the last few minutes of the game. Probably nearly as great a defender as Chaney who I'd have on a first team all defense team. And lead a Sonics team to a title before getting to Boston, averaging 23-6-6 for the series. And named Finals MVP

My positioning DJ as mediocre was wrong. Upgraded to *Good*

Now, DJ as clutch as LB, not in a lifetime!

  DJ was a great clutch player who's deservedly in the hall of fame. He was significantly better than you think he was.

I'll second this -- DJ was not good, he was great. And he was insanely clutch.  He was the quintessential guy who was a mediocre shooter/scorer EXCEPT when it mattered.  With the game was on the line, he was as good as it gets.
 
I disagree with Tim on almost everything political -- but almost always agree with him regarding basketball.  Not sure what to make of that.  TP Tim.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 03, 2013, 05:49:45 PM
That post, including the phrase "Dennis Johnson mediocre point guard"  has to go into a top ten post hall of shame here.

Its was nice to have a reason to think about how great he was again. I was usually begging for him to take the last shot, as he was as fearless and clutch as Larry. I loved those line drive jumpers that would rattle down in the last few minutes of the game. Probably nearly as great a defender as Chaney who I'd have on a first team all defense team. And lead a Sonics team to a title before getting to Boston, averaging 23-6-6 for the series. And named Finals MVP

My positioning DJ as mediocre was wrong. Upgraded to *Good*

Now, DJ as clutch as LB, not in a lifetime!

  DJ was a great clutch player who's deservedly in the hall of fame. He was significantly better than you think he was.

I'll second this -- DJ was not good, he was great. And he was insanely clutch.  He was the quintessential guy who was a mediocre shooter/scorer EXCEPT when it mattered.  With the game was on the line, he was as good as it gets.
 
I disagree with Tim on almost everything political -- but almost always agree with him regarding basketball.  Not sure what to make of that.  TP Tim.

  At least we agree on the important stuff, starting with supporting the right team.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on March 03, 2013, 06:18:32 PM
DJ..in the right place, at the right time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlmRIoHxPC8

"Steal by Bird....PASS TO DJ who lays it up and in...OH MY"...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY_4v2FkyUA

"DJ's one of the best players I ever played with"....Larry.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: celtics2 on March 04, 2013, 05:54:22 AM
The term Great has been way overused by soft generations. The Halls of Fame's should be renamed Halls of Shame's, because there's enough no shows in them to warrant the name. Dennis Johnson an equal to Magic, Cousy etc., is a joke.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: BballTim on March 04, 2013, 07:10:17 AM
The term Great has been way overused by soft generations. The Halls of Fame's should be renamed Halls of Shame's, because there's enough no shows in them to warrant the name. Dennis Johnson an equal to Magic, Cousy etc., is a joke.

  If you limit the hall to players on Magic's level you'd have fewer than 20 players in the hall.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: SCeltic34 on March 04, 2013, 08:05:26 AM
The championship season was really Sam Cassell & Eddie House running the point.

This might be the most ludicrous thing I've read on this forum.  I'm no Rondo apologist, but seriously.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: pearljammer10 on March 04, 2013, 08:27:58 AM
The championship season was really Sam Cassell & Eddie House running the point.

This might be the most ludicrous thing I've read on this forum.  I'm no Rondo apologist, but seriously.

Haha yeah that is quite hilarious.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: Snakehead on March 04, 2013, 08:38:56 AM
The championship season was really Sam Cassell & Eddie House running the point.

This might be the most ludicrous thing I've read on this forum.  I'm no Rondo apologist, but seriously.

Haha yeah that is quite hilarious.


Rondo criticism officially jumping the shark.
Title: Re: Another win w/o a pouting Rondo
Post by: thirstyboots18 on March 04, 2013, 08:48:31 AM
Look, let's just put all of this to rest via the Great Dr. Seuss with  poem: ;D

-I would not trade Rondo for Green Eggs and Ham-

I would not trade Rondo for Green Eggs and Ham

I would not trade him, Sam I Am

I would not trade him for a flake

I would not trade him for Blake

I would not trade him for Russell

I would not trade him because of his hustle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32MjBkENi3M

I would not trade him for Rose

I would not trade him, I suppose

I would not trade him for Paul

I would not trade him, AT ALL.

I would not trade Rajon Rondo for Green Eggs and Ham, I would NOT trade him, Sam I Am.

Now let's stop the "over-rated"...."moody"..."petulant", lol...comments I've seen about our Rajon Rondo since he's been hurt.

The guy has laid it out there on the line for this team...he is not a perfect player by any means, but - to me - he is UNDOUBTEDLY CELTIC.

Let's just be thankful that the "TEAM" has stepped up in his place, and let's look forward to a HEALTHY Rajon Rondo coming back next year and leading this team.
Agree, agree, agree, TP.