CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Rtpas11 on February 25, 2013, 09:53:09 PM
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Have anyone else witnessed what I've been seeing... When this new without Rondo group started playing these guys were playing freely, running, pushing the ball & just finding the open man. = WINNING
Now that Doc has has few practices in with this new group teaching them how to run plays without Rondo they started struggling = losing
Doc simply needs to stop coaching & tell the guys just run & find the open man
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Are you positive the schedule has nothing to do with it?
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Have anyone else witnessed what I've been seeing... When this new without Rondo group started playing these guys were playing freely, running, pushing the ball & just finding the open man. = WINNING
Now that Doc has has few practices in with this new group teaching them how to run plays without Rondo they started struggling = losing
Doc simply needs to stop coaching & tell the guys just run & find the open man
i absolutely agree and have been preaching this board wise
unfortunately, everyone seems to overrate Doc as well as 2013 KG and PP, so you won't get much feedback here lol
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Have anyone else witnessed what I've been seeing... When this new without Rondo group started playing these guys were playing freely, running, pushing the ball & just finding the open man. = WINNING
Now that Doc has has few practices in with this new group teaching them how to run plays without Rondo they started struggling = losing
Doc simply needs to stop coaching & tell the guys just run & find the open man
i absolutely agree and have been preaching this board wise
unfortunately, everyone seems to overrate Doc as well as 2013 KG and PP, so you won't get much feedback here lol
I don't think "feedback" means what you think it does.
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The C's, sadly, will win another title when doc is no longer coach. :-\
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Great plan.
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I keep saying the intelligence of Celtics' fans is vastly overrated. Proof at it's best
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There's a real lack of perception happening here, cuz Doc never stopped coaching ... I think folks need to look a little closer, or maybe are misinterpreting what was being said by him and the press.
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(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/smh.gif)
I dunno....I got nothin....There have been posts on here lately that have just boggled my mind.
I'd like for some of these threads to provide a better alternative to doc rivers as a coach right now.
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Are you positive the schedule has nothing to do with it?
Couldn't be, I mean long winning stretches happening during long homestands and then struggles on long road trips aren't in any way related.
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Having them run and play a little more free IS Doc coaching. Without a pure PG to run things through he is working out ways to get better ball movement and try to run more so we don't get stuck in half court sets.
You can't beat good teams without a game plan, this isn't street ball. And the Celtics certainly don't have enough pure talent through its roster to go out there and wing it day in and day out and expect to be competitive against teams that are going to have schemes to take advantage of their weaknesses.
Maybe Doc is overrated in Celtics fans' eyes but even still that would make him a well above average nba coach.
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Having them run and play a little more free IS Doc coaching. Without a pure PG to run things through he is working out ways to get better ball movement and try to run more so we don't get stuck in half court sets.
You can't beat good teams without a game plan, this isn't street ball. And the Celtics certainly don't have enough pure talent through its roster to go out there and wing it day in and day out and expect to be competitive against teams that are going to have schemes to take advantage of their weaknesses.
Maybe Doc is overrated in Celtics fans' eyes but even still that would make him a well above average nba coach.
No-no-no, you missed the memo. When we win, our players are great. When we lose, it's Doc's coaching.
(oh, and when we tie a game, it's time to wake up ;D)
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We should just fire Doc and run no plays. We can be like the Heat? From a few.years ago...didn't they do something like if you grab a rebound you get to shoot the next shot?
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hahah wow this thread. Talk about twisting anything to reach your desired conclusion.
Doc wins with a Rondo-less lineup: he isn't coaching.
Doc loses with a Rondo-less lineup: he is coaching.
Because of course practice is the only time NBA coaches coach their teams.
Doc has been telling them to play freely ever since Rondo went down. In the Phoenix game everyone said they weren't running plays so much as just figuring out match ups, being aggressive. That's why Jeff Green kept getting fed.
But hey, keep finding ways to twist things to fit your points.
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Having them run and play a little more free IS Doc coaching. Without a pure PG to run things through he is working out ways to get better ball movement and try to run more so we don't get stuck in half court sets.
You can't beat good teams without a game plan, this isn't street ball. And the Celtics certainly don't have enough pure talent through its roster to go out there and wing it day in and day out and expect to be competitive against teams that are going to have schemes to take advantage of their weaknesses.
Maybe Doc is overrated in Celtics fans' eyes but even still that would make him a well above average nba coach.
No-no-no, you missed the memo. When we win, our players are great. When we lose, it's Doc's coaching.
(oh, and when we tie a game, it's time to wake up ;D)
Sorry I'm new and haven't been fully indoctrinated yet ;) I'll be sure to blame doc from this point forward though.
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I think a lot more of the winning & losing this season has been due to the performance of the players, not Doc. We've seen some real stink bombs from players this season from Pierce to Terry to Rondo to Bass. Lots of inconsistency, especially early on.
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Have anyone else witnessed what I've been seeing... When this new without Rondo group started playing these guys were playing freely, running, pushing the ball & just finding the open man. = WINNING
Now that Doc has has few practices in with this new group teaching them how to run plays without Rondo they started struggling = losing
Doc simply needs to stop coaching & tell the guys just run & find the open man
i absolutely agree and have been preaching this board wise
unfortunately, everyone seems to overrate Doc as well as 2013 KG and PP, so you won't get much feedback here lol
I don't think "feedback" means what you think it does.
what?
he came up with a thought or idea and asked for your thoughts
or FEEDBACK
i'm well aware of what the word means†t
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and after reading this thread
yes...overrating Doc
his rotations suck. he's finally gotten better at calling time outs. he almost never rides the hot hand (unless it's Paul). has a very predictable crunch time play (PP iso). doesn't INSTILL enough trust in his younger guys, which could mess with their developmet.
Now, that's just the petty stuff.
And I think, once again, you all are misunderstanding what he's saying. He's not saying the difference is between Doc taking a day off and Doc not, or at least that's not what I'm saying.
Sometimes Doc seems to let them play freely, by calling one play until the other team defends it (which he's said after many games). Mainly because no one knows the sets. Then we have a practice and everyone comes out trying to do too much and pretend like they're real PG's...running more halfcourt/set plays rather than playing freely.
What I'm saying is always play freely.
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Have anyone else witnessed what I've been seeing... When this new without Rondo group started playing these guys were playing freely, running, pushing the ball & just finding the open man. = WINNING
Now that Doc has has few practices in with this new group teaching them how to run plays without Rondo they started struggling = losing
Doc simply needs to stop coaching & tell the guys just run & find the open man
Yes, Yes, and more Yes.
Very astute of you. Through history, Doc has a way of coaching to losing. Sam Cassell, Curly Kristic(?), Starbury, etc. Now, we are going to be stuck in a half court offense with a two man game, Pierce and Garnett.
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Now that Doc has has few practices in with this new group teaching them how to run plays without Rondo they started struggling = losing
You clearly have no idea how the NBA schedule works -- since the trade deadline, we've had one game and one back-to-back set with 1 travel day in-between. I guarantee you the team has had 0 (yes, zero) practices during this period.
For better or for worse, this is not the Euroleague, where teams play once a week and practice two times a day in-between.
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Now that Doc has has few practices in with this new group teaching them how to run plays without Rondo they started struggling = losing
You clearly have no idea how the NBA schedule works -- since the trade deadline, we've had one game and one back-to-back set with 1 travel day in-between. I guarantee you the team has had 0 (yes, zero) practices during this period.
For better or for worse, this is not the Euroleague, where teams play once a week and practice two times a day in-between.
Do you think Doc is a good Coach?
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Now that Doc has has few practices in with this new group teaching them how to run plays without Rondo they started struggling = losing
You clearly have no idea how the NBA schedule works -- since the trade deadline, we've had one game and one back-to-back set with 1 travel day in-between. I guarantee you the team has had 0 (yes, zero) practices during this period.
For better or for worse, this is not the Euroleague, where teams play once a week and practice two times a day in-between.
Do you think Doc is a good Coach?
Do you think LeBron is better than Kobe?
Sorry, I thought we were asking questions marginally related to the post they're replying to.
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and after reading this thread
yes...overrating Doc
his rotations suck. he's finally gotten better at calling time outs. he almost never rides the hot hand (unless it's Paul). has a very predictable crunch time play (PP iso). doesn't INSTILL enough trust in his younger guys, which could mess with their developmet.
Now, that's just the petty stuff.
And I think, once again, you all are misunderstanding what he's saying. He's not saying the difference is between Doc taking a day off and Doc not, or at least that's not what I'm saying.
Sometimes Doc seems to let them play freely, by calling one play until the other team defends it (which he's said after many games). Mainly because no one knows the sets. Then we have a practice and everyone comes out trying to do too much and pretend like they're real PG's...running more halfcourt/set plays rather than playing freely.
What I'm saying is always play freely.
Yes I agree 100 percent. I can't wait until the doc era is over. I honestly never liked his coaching. If he can just NOT MESS ANYTHING UP I consider that a victory for mr doc rivers. Just don't do anything stupid....like sitting green for bass when green has it going. Or putting bass at the 5. Or playing bass and sully together or treating terry like hes ray allen or........I think you get my point.
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and after reading this thread
yes...overrating Doc
his rotations suck. he's finally gotten better at calling time outs. he almost never rides the hot hand (unless it's Paul). has a very predictable crunch time play (PP iso). doesn't INSTILL enough trust in his younger guys, which could mess with their developmet.
Now, that's just the petty stuff.
And I think, once again, you all are misunderstanding what he's saying. He's not saying the difference is between Doc taking a day off and Doc not, or at least that's not what I'm saying.
Sometimes Doc seems to let them play freely, by calling one play until the other team defends it (which he's said after many games). Mainly because no one knows the sets. Then we have a practice and everyone comes out trying to do too much and pretend like they're real PG's...running more halfcourt/set plays rather than playing freely.
What I'm saying is always play freely.
Yes I agree 100 percent. I can't wait until the doc era is over. I honestly never liked his coaching. If he can just NOT MESS ANYTHING UP I consider that a victory for mr doc rivers. Just don't do anything stupid....like sitting green for bass when green has it going. Or putting bass at the 5. Or playing bass and sully together or treating terry like hes ray allen or........I think you get my point.
i have no clue when you're being sarcastic lol
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Now that Doc has has few practices in with this new group teaching them how to run plays without Rondo they started struggling = losing
You clearly have no idea how the NBA schedule works -- since the trade deadline, we've had one game and one back-to-back set with 1 travel day in-between. I guarantee you the team has had 0 (yes, zero) practices during this period.
For better or for worse, this is not the Euroleague, where teams play once a week and practice two times a day in-between.
Do you think Doc is a good Coach?
Do you think LeBron is better than Kobe?
Sorry, I thought we were asking questions marginally related to the post they're replying to.
I forgive you for being so bitter.
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Have anyone else witnessed what I've been seeing... When this new without Rondo group started playing these guys were playing freely, running, pushing the ball & just finding the open man. = WINNING
Now that Doc has has few practices in with this new group teaching them how to run plays without Rondo they started struggling = losing
Doc simply needs to stop coaching & tell the guys just run & find the open man
We were playing great basketball when Rondo went out, but nobody is making a big enough deal about how much Barbosa was contributing. Those first 5 wins he had 9, 7, 12, 14 and 14... You had 4 guards all contributing in their own way and that combined with Green's newfound freedom made up for the loss of Rondo.
Barbosa went down and we were lacking that scoring punch off the bench.
We just added Williams and Crawford... Crawford specifically is expected to fill the Barbosa role. It's been 3 games and we've won 2 of them... could have won all 3. That game in Portland came down to the wire. I don't expect these new guys to just instantly "get it". It's going to take time. I wouldn't have been shocked to see us stumble for 5-10 games while the team adjusted again... And yet we're still doing fantastic, imo. We are definitely playing like a playoff team. We might not make it out of Round 1, but we aren't going to be an easy beat.
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and after reading this thread
yes...overrating Doc
his rotations suck. he's finally gotten better at calling time outs. he almost never rides the hot hand (unless it's Paul). has a very predictable crunch time play (PP iso). doesn't INSTILL enough trust in his younger guys, which could mess with their developmet.
Now, that's just the petty stuff.
And I think, once again, you all are misunderstanding what he's saying. He's not saying the difference is between Doc taking a day off and Doc not, or at least that's not what I'm saying.
Sometimes Doc seems to let them play freely, by calling one play until the other team defends it (which he's said after many games). Mainly because no one knows the sets. Then we have a practice and everyone comes out trying to do too much and pretend like they're real PG's...running more halfcourt/set plays rather than playing freely.
What I'm saying is always play freely.
Yes I agree 100 percent. I can't wait until the doc era is over. I honestly never liked his coaching. If he can just NOT MESS ANYTHING UP I consider that a victory for mr doc rivers. Just don't do anything stupid....like sitting green for bass when green has it going. Or putting bass at the 5. Or playing bass and sully together or treating terry like hes ray allen or........I think you get my point.
i have no clue when you're being sarcastic lol
I was being serious and agreeing with you.
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Maybe we really aren't all that good? I don't know how you can just force a group of players to be better. We aren't a championship caliber team, I love this team to death, but I've come to grips with just riding into the playoffs and just taking as much as we can.
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Maybe we really aren't all that good? I don't know how you can just force a group of players to be better. We aren't a championship caliber team, I love this team to death, but I've come to grips with just riding into the playoffs and just taking as much as we can.
Yeah, I've come to grips with that too. Sucks, but reality is reality.
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I think the weird thing about trying to coach this team would be the incredible depth coupled with the relative balance in talent level.
KG is probably tops, but I don't think there's a massive dispersion in level of talent between KG, Pierce, JET, Green, and Healthy Rondo as stars, and then a next tier of midlevel-type guys like Bass, Barbosa, Lee, Bradley, and Motivated Wilcox are.
Losing the three guys shortened and cleared up rotations and roles by necessity, but that short rotation can't hang in a marathon. We need to rotate other guys through and work rest into the mix.
When it shortenes back up in the playoffs, it should look better.
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Maybe we really aren't all that good? I don't know how you can just force a group of players to be better. We aren't a championship caliber team, I love this team to death, but I've come to grips with just riding into the playoffs and just taking as much as we can.
Yeah, I've come to grips with that too. Sucks, but reality is reality.
Coaches are the number one scape goat in the NBA. If we had lesser management we would have fired Doc long ago (before the Big Three era) and we'd have god knows who as a coach.
Coaches can't make players better and they can't always make them play harder. Just how it is. Doc seems to be a great motivator for a lot of guys who have had great careers and strong work ethic and a certain respect, others like say Big Baby... well he may never get through. Do we blame that on Doc?
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??? I know we gave injuries now, but I still stand by what I've been preaching. Docs coaching isn't helping but hurting. These players are now starting to think the game & plays way too much. It looks like Rondo is back on the floor the way our guys especially Jeff Green looks so confused. T-will looks indecisive like docs voice is controlling his every move.
Terry is flat out playing terrible. His impact really shapes this team. Well just fins wait for playoffs. Hopefully we do make it & play far better like we usually do.
Last: we don't need to run a bunch of plays to beat good teams. Look at the knicks great record, & they probably run 2-3 plays all game. Pick n roll, pick n pop & iso
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T-will looks indecisive like docs voice is controlling his every move.
OMG!!
I feel like I've seen the same thing, but I don't say it because ppl here like stats and don't believe what you see.
I feel this way about JG and T-Will. A lil about Crawford, too and also when LB plays. It feels like Doc is putting them in a box or wants one thing from them. Going away from that results in being in the dog house.
Tonight..when T-Will stopped at the top of the key he kept looking like he was supposed to pass it but nothing opened up. It seemed like he reluctantly drove to the basket.
Crazy.
The KG/Lee loss also doesn't seem to help either.
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Doc was coaching all season people, including the times when we had those big win streaks.
The difference is that something like 5 of our last 6 losses have been wither without KG or without Pierce. We cannot win consistently without both of those guys on the court, its just not going to happen.
Rondo is somewhat expendable but those guys are not.
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Look at our rotation and then tell me this is Doc's fault.
We're missing four of our starters. Let me say that again: our starting PG, SG, PF and C are all injured.
We gave 40 minutes to a guy who couldn't get on the court in Washington. The worst part is that he deserved it - not because he's so good, but because he's the best of a bad situation.
No coach in the league could win with the squad we suited up tonight.
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Look at our rotation and then tell me this is Doc's fault.
We're missing four of our starters. Let me say that again: our starting PG, SG, PF and C are all injured.
We gave 40 minutes to a guy who couldn't get on the court in Washington. The worst part is that he deserved it - not because he's so good, but because he's the best of a bad situation.
No coach in the league could win with the squad we suited up tonight.
Not if they went 3 sgs and 2 sf for a large portion of the game.
That sounds insane. Some might not think much of our new bigs, but they are big. Basketball has not changed that much in the last 50 years. Big men are an important part of the game. You play who you got, in their right positions, and then outcoach the other team.
Doc is trying to reinvent the wheel. Right now he's got a triangle.
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Are you positive the schedule has nothing to do with it?
And the fact that two more of our starters are out?
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Look at our rotation and then tell me this is Doc's fault.
We're missing four of our starters. Let me say that again: our starting PG, SG, PF and C are all injured.
We gave 40 minutes to a guy who couldn't get on the court in Washington. The worst part is that he deserved it - not because he's so good, but because he's the best of a bad situation.
No coach in the league could win with the squad we suited up tonight.
Not if they went 3 sgs and 2 sf for a large portion of the game.
That sounds insane. Some might not think much of our new bigs, but they are big. Basketball has not changed that much in the last 50 years. Big men are an important part of the game. You play who you got, in their right positions, and then outcoach the other team.
Knicks weren't playing a big man when Doc did that. When they had a big on the floor so did the C's. You want Bass/Wilcox guarding Novak? Melo? JR Smith?
Yet in the end it was turnovers that did us in more than anything, which had little to do with the lack of "bigs" you are harping on.
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Look at our rotation and then tell me this is Doc's fault.
We're missing four of our starters. Let me say that again: our starting PG, SG, PF and C are all injured.
We gave 40 minutes to a guy who couldn't get on the court in Washington. The worst part is that he deserved it - not because he's so good, but because he's the best of a bad situation.
No coach in the league could win with the squad we suited up tonight.
Not if they went 3 sgs and 2 sf for a large portion of the game.
That sounds insane. Some might not think much of our new bigs, but they are big. Basketball has not changed that much in the last 50 years. Big men are an important part of the game. You play who you got, in their right positions, and then outcoach the other team.
Knicks weren't playing a big man when Doc did that. When they had a big on the floor so did the C's. You want Bass/Wilcox guarding Novak? Melo? JR Smith?
Yet in the end it was turnovers that did us in more than anything, which had little to do with the lack of "bigs" you are harping on.
I guess we see basketball differently. I like traditional basketball and traditional line-ups no matter what the opponent counters with. Over the history of the NBA, that has been the most successful formula.
As far as the turnovers, it happens when you don't have a true pg (as mentioned above) and everyone is playing out of their natural/more comfortable positions.
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Look at our rotation and then tell me this is Doc's fault.
We're missing four of our starters. Let me say that again: our starting PG, SG, PF and C are all injured.
We gave 40 minutes to a guy who couldn't get on the court in Washington. The worst part is that he deserved it - not because he's so good, but because he's the best of a bad situation.
No coach in the league could win with the squad we suited up tonight.
Not if they went 3 sgs and 2 sf for a large portion of the game.
That sounds insane. Some might not think much of our new bigs, but they are big. Basketball has not changed that much in the last 50 years. Big men are an important part of the game. You play who you got, in their right positions, and then outcoach the other team.
Knicks weren't playing a big man when Doc did that. When they had a big on the floor so did the C's. You want Bass/Wilcox guarding Novak? Melo? JR Smith?
Yet in the end it was turnovers that did us in more than anything, which had little to do with the lack of "bigs" you are harping on.
I guess we see basketball differently. I like traditional basketball and traditional line-ups no matter what the opponent counters with. Over the history of the NBA, that has been the most successful formula.
As far as the turnovers, it happens when you don't have a true pg (as mentioned above) and everyone is playing out of their natural/more comfortable positions.
Last night the C's didn't have the players to play traditional line ups, especially with the other team only playing one or none big men.
I don't think citing tradition an eschewing thinking about how things are occuring on the court is a good way to analyze coaching decisions.
How you match up, how you'll guard the other teams actions, and how you'll run your offensive action should be what you look at. Instead its:
If 2 tall guys in Then
Good Coach
Else
Bad Coach
Of course when Doc does play the tall guys and it still doesn't "work", he's "playing the wrong ones". Bass is the target this time, used to be Davis. Before that it was O'Neal, etc.
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Look at our rotation and then tell me this is Doc's fault.
We're missing four of our starters. Let me say that again: our starting PG, SG, PF and C are all injured.
We gave 40 minutes to a guy who couldn't get on the court in Washington. The worst part is that he deserved it - not because he's so good, but because he's the best of a bad situation.
No coach in the league could win with the squad we suited up tonight.
Not if they went 3 sgs and 2 sf for a large portion of the game.
That sounds insane. Some might not think much of our new bigs, but they are big. Basketball has not changed that much in the last 50 years. Big men are an important part of the game. You play who you got, in their right positions, and then outcoach the other team.
Knicks weren't playing a big man when Doc did that. When they had a big on the floor so did the C's. You want Bass/Wilcox guarding Novak? Melo? JR Smith?
Yet in the end it was turnovers that did us in more than anything, which had little to do with the lack of "bigs" you are harping on.
I guess we see basketball differently. I like traditional basketball and traditional line-ups no matter what the opponent counters with. Over the history of the NBA, that has been the most successful formula.
As far as the turnovers, it happens when you don't have a true pg (as mentioned above) and everyone is playing out of their natural/more comfortable positions.
Last night the C's didn't have the players to play traditional line ups, especially with the other team only playing one or none big men.
I don't think citing tradition an eschewing thinking about how things are occuring on the court is a good way to analyze coaching decisions.
How you match up, how you'll guard the other teams actions, and how you'll run your offensive action should be what you look at. Instead its:
If 2 tall guys in Then
Good Coach
Else
Bad Coach
Of course when Doc does play the tall guys and it still doesn't "work", he's "playing the wrong ones". Bass is the target this time, used to be Davis. Before that it was O'Neal, etc.
That's why he gets paid the big bucks. His job is to evaluate the talent Danny gives him and do the best with it. IMO, he has not always done that.
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Look at our rotation and then tell me this is Doc's fault.
We're missing four of our starters. Let me say that again: our starting PG, SG, PF and C are all injured.
We gave 40 minutes to a guy who couldn't get on the court in Washington. The worst part is that he deserved it - not because he's so good, but because he's the best of a bad situation.
No coach in the league could win with the squad we suited up tonight.
Not if they went 3 sgs and 2 sf for a large portion of the game.
That sounds insane. Some might not think much of our new bigs, but they are big. Basketball has not changed that much in the last 50 years. Big men are an important part of the game. You play who you got, in their right positions, and then outcoach the other team.
Doc is trying to reinvent the wheel. Right now he's got a triangle.
Basketball has changed drastically in the last 50 years.
This article from Zach Lowe, just the other day, highlights that as well as anything (and, really, any work Lowe has done this year shows how much the game has changed and evolved):
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9098417/how-miami-heat-went-historic-winning-streak-came-dominate-league
To say that a team, missing 4/5ths of its starting lineup just needs to play some bigs to right the ship seems to be putting a bit too much faith in the strength of an antiquated system.
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Look at our rotation and then tell me this is Doc's fault.
We're missing four of our starters. Let me say that again: our starting PG, SG, PF and C are all injured.
We gave 40 minutes to a guy who couldn't get on the court in Washington. The worst part is that he deserved it - not because he's so good, but because he's the best of a bad situation.
No coach in the league could win with the squad we suited up tonight.
Not if they went 3 sgs and 2 sf for a large portion of the game.
That sounds insane. Some might not think much of our new bigs, but they are big. Basketball has not changed that much in the last 50 years. Big men are an important part of the game. You play who you got, in their right positions, and then outcoach the other team.
Doc is trying to reinvent the wheel. Right now he's got a triangle.
Basketball has changed drastically in the last 50 years.
This article from Zach Lowe, just the other day, highlights that as well as anything (and, really, any work Lowe has done this year shows how much the game has changed and evolved):
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9098417/how-miami-heat-went-historic-winning-streak-came-dominate-league
To say that a team, missing 4/5ths of its starting lineup just needs to play some bigs to right the ship seems to be putting a bit too much faith in the strength of an antiquated system.
It works when you have the greatest player on the planet. We don't.
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It's kind of ridiculous to complain about Doc's coaching now, when the team is being held together with spit and bailing wire.
It it, however, entirely fair to look at some of the weird play out of this Celtic team and wonder what role Doc's coaching plays in it. Like when they played .500 ball for the last 2/3rd of the season a few years ago, including home losses to some of the worst teams in the league. Or the start of this season when the defense was atrocious and Rondo's "I'm going to pass up lay ups in order to try for assists" approach got as bad as its ever been.
Of course, such thoughts are treated as blasphemy by some of the folks around here.
Mike
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Look at our rotation and then tell me this is Doc's fault.
We're missing four of our starters. Let me say that again: our starting PG, SG, PF and C are all injured.
We gave 40 minutes to a guy who couldn't get on the court in Washington. The worst part is that he deserved it - not because he's so good, but because he's the best of a bad situation.
No coach in the league could win with the squad we suited up tonight.
Not if they went 3 sgs and 2 sf for a large portion of the game.
That sounds insane. Some might not think much of our new bigs, but they are big. Basketball has not changed that much in the last 50 years. Big men are an important part of the game. You play who you got, in their right positions, and then outcoach the other team.
Doc is trying to reinvent the wheel. Right now he's got a triangle.
Basketball has changed drastically in the last 50 years.
This article from Zach Lowe, just the other day, highlights that as well as anything (and, really, any work Lowe has done this year shows how much the game has changed and evolved):
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9098417/how-miami-heat-went-historic-winning-streak-came-dominate-league
To say that a team, missing 4/5ths of its starting lineup just needs to play some bigs to right the ship seems to be putting a bit too much faith in the strength of an antiquated system.
It works when you have the greatest player on the planet. We don't.
That doesn't mean you go back to a system that isn't working for anyone. Defenses are so wildly more sophisticated now. And, yes, Lowe was looking at The Heat but he has written numerous other articles on a variety of teams, all of which pinpoint how the game has developed and changed. The Heat in that article are an example, the best one, of how offenses, and defenses, have changed. If you really think the answer to a team's woes, any teams, is to regress to an offensive or defensive scheme that most every team has figured out how to stop, or succeed against, well, we think fundamentally differently.
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Look at our rotation and then tell me this is Doc's fault.
We're missing four of our starters. Let me say that again: our starting PG, SG, PF and C are all injured.
We gave 40 minutes to a guy who couldn't get on the court in Washington. The worst part is that he deserved it - not because he's so good, but because he's the best of a bad situation.
No coach in the league could win with the squad we suited up tonight.
Not if they went 3 sgs and 2 sf for a large portion of the game.
That sounds insane. Some might not think much of our new bigs, but they are big. Basketball has not changed that much in the last 50 years. Big men are an important part of the game. You play who you got, in their right positions, and then outcoach the other team.
Doc is trying to reinvent the wheel. Right now he's got a triangle.
Basketball has changed drastically in the last 50 years.
This article from Zach Lowe, just the other day, highlights that as well as anything (and, really, any work Lowe has done this year shows how much the game has changed and evolved):
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9098417/how-miami-heat-went-historic-winning-streak-came-dominate-league
To say that a team, missing 4/5ths of its starting lineup just needs to play some bigs to right the ship seems to be putting a bit too much faith in the strength of an antiquated system.
It works when you have the greatest player on the planet. We don't.
That doesn't mean you go back to a system that isn't working for anyone. Defenses are so wildly more sophisticated now. And, yes, Lowe was looking at The Heat but he has written numerous other articles on a variety of teams, all of which pinpoint how the game has developed and changed. The Heat in that article are an example, the best one, of how offenses, and defenses, have changed. If you really think the answer to a team's woes, any teams, is to regress to an offensive or defensive scheme that most every team has figured out how to stop, or succeed against, well, we think fundamentally differently.
I think Indiana and Memphis play a very similar style as the 1980s Celtics. Seems to be working there.
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Look at our rotation and then tell me this is Doc's fault.
We're missing four of our starters. Let me say that again: our starting PG, SG, PF and C are all injured.
We gave 40 minutes to a guy who couldn't get on the court in Washington. The worst part is that he deserved it - not because he's so good, but because he's the best of a bad situation.
No coach in the league could win with the squad we suited up tonight.
Not if they went 3 sgs and 2 sf for a large portion of the game.
That sounds insane. Some might not think much of our new bigs, but they are big. Basketball has not changed that much in the last 50 years. Big men are an important part of the game. You play who you got, in their right positions, and then outcoach the other team.
Doc is trying to reinvent the wheel. Right now he's got a triangle.
Basketball has changed drastically in the last 50 years.
This article from Zach Lowe, just the other day, highlights that as well as anything (and, really, any work Lowe has done this year shows how much the game has changed and evolved):
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9098417/how-miami-heat-went-historic-winning-streak-came-dominate-league
To say that a team, missing 4/5ths of its starting lineup just needs to play some bigs to right the ship seems to be putting a bit too much faith in the strength of an antiquated system.
It works when you have the greatest player on the planet. We don't.
That doesn't mean you go back to a system that isn't working for anyone. Defenses are so wildly more sophisticated now. And, yes, Lowe was looking at The Heat but he has written numerous other articles on a variety of teams, all of which pinpoint how the game has developed and changed. The Heat in that article are an example, the best one, of how offenses, and defenses, have changed. If you really think the answer to a team's woes, any teams, is to regress to an offensive or defensive scheme that most every team has figured out how to stop, or succeed against, well, we think fundamentally differently.
I think Indiana and Memphis play a very similar style as the 1980s Celtics. Seems to be working there.
I would still say those offenses and defenses run very differently from the 80's C's. Indiana suffers when they try and utilize Hibbert as a classic post-up big man (though he is playing better than the beginning of the year, but that was abysmal). Memphis's center, Gasol, plays best from the elbow. He is a terrific basketball player but hardly a "throwback." I would say he is a very modern player.
What this discussion has gone away from is the players we had available. The calls for size are great but the available size in last nights game was all picked up from the scrapheap from China.
Putting a system in place that you have none of the pieces to make work makes zero sense. How did the roster the C's had available last night lend itself to playing that kind of game?
It is fine to take Doc to task for certain moves but with the injuries this team has had the roster is a mess (and that isn't blaming Danny). 4 out of the 5 starters on this team were out last night. No NBA team, barring The Spurs, can see any success with that. I just don't get killing Doc for the bad luck this team has had.
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I think you have a really good subject line. After that I disagree. I would like to propose an alternative subject line to "Doc starts Coaching Celts start losing"
"Celtics start losing, Fan starts doubting."
"Celtics keep losing, Fan starts blaming."
"Fan starts blogging, heads start scratching."
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I think Indiana and Memphis play a very similar style as the 1980s Celtics. Seems to be working there.
Which one of Brandon Bass, Chris Wilcox, DJ White and Shavlik Randolph is going to replicate what ZBo, Marc Gasol, Roy Hibbert and David West do for a basketball team?
That's not a system problem, that's a talent problem. Doc doesn't play many bigs because we have no good bigs.
Doc showed a willingness to go with a more traditional lineup when Sully and KG were both playing. But right now, we don't have the horses for that kind of race. He's essentially telling our five best players to go out there and win us a ballgame, but unfortunately we can't just out-talent teams anymore.
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Coach as he may with our injuries right now the talent isn't there. Red would not win every game with this team.