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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: kgainez on February 24, 2013, 11:52:54 PM

Title: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 24, 2013, 11:52:54 PM
am i the only person that's noticed that when one of the big 3 have a big game or even just the big 3, we almost never win the game?

what's so hard to understand that EVERYONE needs to get touches in order for us to win games?

this was my fear with KG coming back in after such a nice win...straight up making sure we passed him the ball. And then when we are down, it becomes the 2 man game with KG and PP.

It doesn't always suck but I hate the dribbling and the making sure PP gets the ball and everyone else just gets out the way. it's annoying!!!!! I blame the players and I blame Doc. I mean...what's it going to take?
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: gpap on February 24, 2013, 11:55:21 PM
Unfortunately, there's no other go-to-guy on this team.

Pierce and KG are as good as we are going to get.

Lee, Bass, Bradley, Green and Terry are all role players and that is all.

This team is clearly missing a closer who can take over the game when it counts.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: Mike on February 24, 2013, 11:56:15 PM
I haven't checked the box score, but I seem to recall Bradley and Terry taking and missing a lot of jump shots.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 25, 2013, 12:01:35 AM
Wow. Pierce is one of the best closers in the game. It isn't even debatable...
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 25, 2013, 12:02:58 AM
Unfortunately, there's no other go-to-guy on this team.

Pierce and KG are as good as we are going to get.

Lee, Bass, Bradley, Green and Terry are all role players and that is all.

This team is clearly missing a closer who can take over the game when it counts.

here's the problem. everyone thinks there needs to be one go to guy
this entire team we have is 'by committee'
we need to get everyone involved because EVERYONE can contribute in their own way
we don't NEED a go to guy. we need everyone to pass the ball until someone gets open
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 25, 2013, 12:05:14 AM
I haven't checked the box score, but I seem to recall Bradley and Terry taking and missing a lot of jump shots.

here's another thing
everyone has a poor time and judging who's on and who's going to turn it on.
i felt like AB just kept chucking because of reasons. I didn't appreciate that.

Jet, however, I thought he took all makeable shots for himself.
I still feel like we're having a poor time trying to get him involved more...but makeable shots
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 25, 2013, 12:05:59 AM
Wow. Pierce is one of the best closers in the game. It isn't even debatable...

that's great
we don't need to defer to him in quarters 1-3 though. just ball.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: Mike on February 25, 2013, 12:07:18 AM
What's so frustrating about Bradley's shot is that it almost always looks to be on target, and then falls just short.  Such a tease.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: MVPPierceNoJoke on February 25, 2013, 12:08:00 AM
Im not a rocket scientist by any means, but Pierce and KG are by far the top two options. For example, Pierce had 8 assists in less than 32 minutes tonight. Green didn't get one. If you are screaming at Doc for not running the offense thru Green in the fourth quarter. You may want evaluate Jeff Greens game.


Also, do you think they passing it to KG and Pierce because no one else on the team could make a shot?
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 25, 2013, 12:13:25 AM
Im not a rocket scientist by any means, but Pierce and KG are by far the top two options. For example, Pierce had 8 assists in less than 32 minutes tonight. Green didn't get one. If you are screaming at Doc for not running the offense thru Green in the fourth quarter. You may want evaluate Jeff Greens game.

Frankly, KG and PP should be top 2 options in the fourth quarter
If we play like we play in Phoenix against any and all teams, who's stopping us?

I think EVERYONE (Doc and players included) keep holding on to the past of Paul and KG. They are good now. They were GREAT then.
In addition, we have TONS OF TALENT ON THIS TEAM!! UTILIZE IT!!

2nd half, I thought we'd get to ball movement but Rondo may as well been out there the way we barely advanced the pass and always threw the ball to Pierce. That is not the way we've been winning games. at all.

Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: MVPPierceNoJoke on February 25, 2013, 12:27:04 AM
Im not a rocket scientist by any means, but Pierce and KG are by far the top two options. For example, Pierce had 8 assists in less than 32 minutes tonight. Green didn't get one. If you are screaming at Doc for not running the offense thru Green in the fourth quarter. You may want evaluate Jeff Greens game.

Frankly, KG and PP should be top 2 options in the fourth quarter
If we play like we play in Phoenix against any and all teams, who's stopping us?

I think EVERYONE (Doc and players included) keep holding on to the past of Paul and KG. They are good now. They were GREAT then.
In addition, we have TONS OF TALENT ON THIS TEAM!! UTILIZE IT!!

2nd half, I thought we'd get to ball movement but Rondo may as well been out there the way we barely advanced the pass and always threw the ball to Pierce. That is not the way we've been winning games. at all.

What kind of offense would you like to see Doc run? The Celtics have resorted to Pierce because  that is there most efficient offense at this time. They ran a free flow offense for the first half of tonights game and they had 6 assists and 6 turnovers at half. The second half they were much better moving the ball around.

The spacing on the floor has to improve in order for the other guys to be max effective and that is not going to happen until Bradley, Lee, Terry, and Bass start knocking down some shots.

Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: ejk3489 on February 25, 2013, 12:38:41 AM
If we play like we play in Phoenix against any and all teams, who's stopping us?

Teams that actually defend?
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: pearljammer10 on February 25, 2013, 12:42:31 AM
Green should be seeing more 4th quarter minutes.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 25, 2013, 01:03:56 AM
If we play like we play in Phoenix against any and all teams, who's stopping us?

Teams that actually defend?

Yeah, that was going to be my answer.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: cltc5 on February 25, 2013, 01:06:56 AM
I don't have a prob with pierce/kg.  They are the best options.  I have a prob with an ineffective bass gettin minutes over green.  Can't believe I'm saying that
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: vinnie on February 25, 2013, 01:09:04 AM
If we play like we play in Phoenix against any and all teams, who's stopping us?

Teams that actually defend?

Beat me to it. Taking anything from the Phoenix game is worse than Fools good.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 25, 2013, 01:18:45 AM
my point is it's harder to defend a pass
I can run with you up the court but I can't run with a ball. the pass is faster.
when you don't make passes you let the defenses set, even if they aren't good -- see Portland.
Suns never had a chance. Just like the Lakers didn't in our first meeting and I'm sure I can go back some more and figure out other wins, but those are at the forefront of my mind.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 25, 2013, 01:21:02 AM
Im not a rocket scientist by any means, but Pierce and KG are by far the top two options. For example, Pierce had 8 assists in less than 32 minutes tonight. Green didn't get one. If you are screaming at Doc for not running the offense thru Green in the fourth quarter. You may want evaluate Jeff Greens game.

Frankly, KG and PP should be top 2 options in the fourth quarter
If we play like we play in Phoenix against any and all teams, who's stopping us?

I think EVERYONE (Doc and players included) keep holding on to the past of Paul and KG. They are good now. They were GREAT then.
In addition, we have TONS OF TALENT ON THIS TEAM!! UTILIZE IT!!

2nd half, I thought we'd get to ball movement but Rondo may as well been out there the way we barely advanced the pass and always threw the ball to Pierce. That is not the way we've been winning games. at all.

What kind of offense would you like to see Doc run? The Celtics have resorted to Pierce because  that is there most efficient offense at this time. They ran a free flow offense for the first half of tonights game and they had 6 assists and 6 turnovers at half. The second half they were much better moving the ball around.

The spacing on the floor has to improve in order for the other guys to be max effective and that is not going to happen until Bradley, Lee, Terry, and Bass start knocking down some shots.

i didn't see much good ball movement. at all until PP decided he wanted to force it.
but then it would stop all of a sudden when we trot up the court or do what? defer to him even if he's behind the ball, not open, or whatever.

it's annoying
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: LB3533 on February 25, 2013, 02:38:07 AM
When guys don't make shots....it looks like we don't pass....it looks like we don't have good ball movement.

Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: BballTim on February 25, 2013, 04:40:00 AM
am i the only person that's noticed that when one of the big 3 have a big game or even just the big 3, we almost never win the game?

  Have you noticed that when the supporting players have bad games we always end up with big games from 1 or all of the big three? Or how last night's game would have gotten well out of hand in the first half if KG didn't keep bailing out bad possessions with last second jump shots?
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: celticsleyte on February 25, 2013, 04:52:46 AM
I would like to see the team continue to run plays other than the Pierce ISO game and a strategy to take advantage of mismatches regardless of which Celtic has the good matchup but Doc just likes to call the same numbers and with Ray gone this year it is more predictable than ever.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: BballTim on February 25, 2013, 05:29:44 AM
If we play like we play in Phoenix against any and all teams, who's stopping us?

Teams that actually defend?

Beat me to it. Taking anything from the Phoenix game is worse than Fools good.

  ...Although it's a shame Jeff Green can't be defended by Scola every game, he'd still have time to play his way onto an all-nba team this year.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: scaryjerry on February 25, 2013, 07:34:16 AM
looks to me we are better without kg looking at the last 2 games
 :P
 ;)
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 25, 2013, 07:37:38 AM
Quote
When guys don't make shots....it looks like we don't pass....it looks like we don't have good ball movement.

Yep, and it's Rondo's fault, right?  I thought the magic would wear off at some point and all this better team without him would be egg on our face.   All it took was a road trip.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: Roy H. on February 25, 2013, 08:19:35 AM
It seems weird to blame Pierce and KG after last night's game, when they were the only players to shoot above 50%.

Green, Terry, Crawford, and Williams were a combined 6-for-24 (25%).  KG, meanwhile, was 4-of-7 in the 4th, and 2-for-2 on FTs.  (Pierce was cold in the 4th, shooting 1-for-5, after carrying us for three quarters.)

As for the theory "we don't win when Pierce or KG have a good game", we're 9-5 in Pierce's 14 best games according to basketball-reference's "game score".  (I used a game score of 17.0 for the cutoff point).  For KG's 9 best games (again, game score over 17.0) the team is 7-2.

Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: ScottHow on February 25, 2013, 08:38:45 AM
I would say a bigger problem would be Green being 4-12 and a -17. Or Crawford Terry and Williams being a combined 1-12
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 25, 2013, 08:40:21 AM
We were playing a team that had a lot of length, it was evident that we were going to have a tough game. It was compounded by Doc giving Bass too many minutes, and going with his Extra Small Doc Special too often.

In a game that it was pivotal to play our big units, Wilcox and KG shared the floor together zero seconds as far as I can recall. It makes little sense to me.

All this to say, what the heck does Pierce and KG have to do with it? They played well.

Bass sucked with dumb decisions, poor possessions, poor defense. Terrence Williams sucked, nowhere was to be found the passing ability he had been showing, instead started playing his version of hero ball, often forgoing passes to open players to put up a bad shot. Avery Bradley played well, but I'm getting a bit tired of his chucker instincts... I really don't know what is it with him, but he goes through stretches where he takes bad shot after bad shot, with little ball movement. Jamal Crawford sucked. Jeff Green I'd say had an overall good game, his shots simply weren't falling, but I didn't expect him to have a good game today considering the length, agility, mobility of the Blazers.

There was a lot of blame to go around, which included one of the worst refs crews we've experienced this year, and Doc's poor usage of his player. Also, we don't have a full big man roster yet, so we're limited in some ways on how we can go and play... DJ White could had helped us a bit.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: BballTim on February 25, 2013, 09:55:54 AM
It seems weird to blame Pierce and KG after last night's game, when they were the only players to shoot above 50%.

  Makes as much sense as blaming Rondo when the other players were playing poorly.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: vinnie on February 25, 2013, 10:33:54 AM
FYI -- now 9-4 in the post "we are a better team without Rondo" era. FYI, Portland had lost 7 in a row including a 36-point shellacking at the hands of the Hornets and a loss to the horrid Suns.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 25, 2013, 10:38:36 AM
FYI -- now 9-4 in the post "we are a better team without Rondo" era. FYI, Portland had lost 7 in a row including a 36-point shellacking at the hands of the Hornets and a loss to the horrid Suns.

9-4 beats 20-23. Just saying vinnie.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: vinnie on February 25, 2013, 10:41:58 AM
FYI -- now 9-4 in the post "we are a better team without Rondo" era. FYI, Portland had lost 7 in a row including a 36-point shellacking at the hands of the Hornets and a loss to the horrid Suns.

9-4 beats 20-23. Just saying vinnie.

For sure. I am just providing an update.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 25, 2013, 10:50:51 AM
I would like to see the team continue to run plays other than the Pierce ISO game and a strategy to take advantage of mismatches regardless of which Celtic has the good matchup but Doc just likes to call the same numbers and with Ray gone this year it is more predictable than ever.

i agree
i'm saying.
when things get bad, we know exactly who's shooting.

it's the same thing. and same when we blow a lead.
we play scared/pass to PP and KG only and get away from gets us the win which is the ball movement and stuff
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: TheReaLPuba on February 25, 2013, 10:57:39 AM
We do have a lot of talent on this team but they don't play up to their capabilities.

PP and KG shouldn't have to play like HOF players anymore but the rest of the other guys needs to play ok to good.

We didn't get any "good" games from anyone outside of PP and KG.

We missed a ton of shots and stupid crazy layups. The other guys may not get the consistent minutes that they're used to getting but they have to adapt and play efficiently with whatever minutes they do get.

I don't see why fans are saying that KO and PP are the problem with this team...without those two we're a lottery team borderlining on the Bobcats record.

Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 25, 2013, 11:00:10 AM
Likely one of those who complained KG and Pierce didn't get enough shots when we lose games and guys like Bass, Terry and Green shouldn't be taking their shots.

People will always complain about something when we lose.  Sometimes you just get outplayed and don't get the breaks.  A lot of our guys were missing a lot of wide open shots.  Sometimes the shots just don't fall.  I loved that after KG missed a couple jumpers he started driving to the rim.  Exactly what you want to see.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 25, 2013, 11:00:26 AM
I understand that KG and PP shoot well (BB shot 50%, too, should we have given him the ball more?) -- but they unnecessarily carry the team. It seems like Doc goes into panic mode and stops trusting everyone else.

It doesn't matter how many times KG and PP brick, as soon as JET or Lee hit some bricks, they get pulled or he never goes to them again.

This unit THRIVES off team play. And I think this is my point. When we are not playing as a team, we lose. Now when PP has a 40 pt night, it's hard to lose there. But when PP is the leading scorer with 21 and the 2nd guy has 19 and the third has 15 -- that's balanced...so I don't really care about the win loss rate because I can count at least 4 or 5 times the aforementioned has happened.

KG and PP are our leading scorers and that's fine. what I'm saying is I can't stand the DEFERMENT...the 'oh ok, well we're down 6, instead of doing the things that make us win, let me just pass it Paul and let him do something' or 'let me just pass it KG in the post and hope he can knock a youngin around for a couple seconds to get a contested layup'.

When Kg and PP are hot, that's different. KG wasn't hot until the 4th. PP tried to create but the players kept giving it to him to do something.

Do you all realize I'm not arguing against KG/PP but against the other players and maybe Doc?
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 25, 2013, 11:03:09 AM
We do have a lot of talent on this team but they don't play up to their capabilities.

PP and KG shouldn't have to play like HOF players anymore but the rest of the other guys needs to play ok to good.

We didn't get any "good" games from anyone outside of PP and KG.

We missed a ton of shots and stupid crazy layups. The other guys may not get the consistent minutes that they're used to getting but they have to adapt and play efficiently with whatever minutes they do get.

I don't see why fans are saying that KO and PP are the problem with this team...without those two we're a lottery team borderlining on the Bobcats record.

i agree and disagree
at some point it feels like PP and KG are being force fed
and I'm not complaining and saying they are what's wrong
I'm saying how I hate how Doc/the others always hope and pray PP/KG can make a play instead of playing the type of TEAM ball that get's us going.

and also, I don't think without them we're a lottery team, but that's a whole nother argument
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: OsirusCeltics on February 25, 2013, 11:38:03 AM
Yeah, lets tell Tony Parker to give up shots and pass to Bonner more
Or tell Durant to pass up shots and give to Ibaka more

Pierce and KG are the best players on this team, so the priority of the available shots go to them
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 25, 2013, 11:44:52 AM
Yeah, lets tell Tony Parker to give up shots and pass to Bonner more
Or tell Durant to pass up shots and give to Ibaka more

Pierce and KG are the best players on this team, so the priority of the available shots go to them

different team make up
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: BballTim on February 25, 2013, 11:46:45 AM
Im not a rocket scientist by any means, but Pierce and KG are by far the top two options. For example, Pierce had 8 assists in less than 32 minutes tonight. Green didn't get one. If you are screaming at Doc for not running the offense thru Green in the fourth quarter. You may want evaluate Jeff Greens game.

Frankly, KG and PP should be top 2 options in the fourth quarter
If we play like we play in Phoenix against any and all teams, who's stopping us?

I think EVERYONE (Doc and players included) keep holding on to the past of Paul and KG. They are good now. They were GREAT then.
In addition, we have TONS OF TALENT ON THIS TEAM!! UTILIZE IT!!

  Offensively we don't have a ton of talent on the team. PP and KG are above average offensive players. Terry's close to average, Green's been average or better for the last few weeks, players like Bass, Lee and AB aren't generally good/great scorers. Doc keeps talking about how the team needs to play uptempo because without Rondo they aren't good enough to do well in a half court game. He isn't kidding.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 25, 2013, 11:54:16 AM
Im not a rocket scientist by any means, but Pierce and KG are by far the top two options. For example, Pierce had 8 assists in less than 32 minutes tonight. Green didn't get one. If you are screaming at Doc for not running the offense thru Green in the fourth quarter. You may want evaluate Jeff Greens game.

Frankly, KG and PP should be top 2 options in the fourth quarter
If we play like we play in Phoenix against any and all teams, who's stopping us?

I think EVERYONE (Doc and players included) keep holding on to the past of Paul and KG. They are good now. They were GREAT then.
In addition, we have TONS OF TALENT ON THIS TEAM!! UTILIZE IT!!

  Offensively we don't have a ton of talent on the team. PP and KG are above average offensive players. Terry's close to average, Green's been average or better for the last few weeks, players like Bass, Lee and AB aren't generally good/great scorers. Doc keeps talking about how the team needs to play uptempo because without Rondo they aren't good enough to do well in a half court game. He isn't kidding.

this is half of my point
this team is athletic now, so we need to move the ball.
when they get it to PP it's always some sort of halfcourt set with maybe 2 or 3 passes max. never the extra pass and I've seen times when we pass behind.

and with or without Rondo, we should be playing as such.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: FreeGreen on February 25, 2013, 11:56:07 AM
When the shot clock is running down, or when the game is tight and defenses tighten up it makes sense to let the plays run through PP and KG.  I don't think the PP ISO is a great offense, but that's not what we were running.  We were running an offense with PP initiating.  That's all.

Look at the other night in Denver ... it was a 2 point game, PP ran the pick and roll up top, beat his guy, drew the help and dished to Bradley who missed a wide open 16 footer.

The end result was we lost, but the play worked.  That's exactly the type of shot you want in that situation.

Look at the offense down the stretch tonight. Starting from when we were down 8:

1.  Pierce PnR pass to Bass for 2 points
2.  KG dunk off PP pass
3.  KG fouled, hits 2 FTs
4.  PP basket off KG pass
5.  Bass scores off KG pass
6.  KG misses off PP pass
7.  KG layup off PP pass
8.  PP misses 3

That's a pretty effective offense down the stretch.  Unfortunately our DEFENSE was porous.   

The Lilliard layup + foul was absolutely TERRIBLE defense in that situation.  Bradley is a phenomenal defender, but you cannot allow the blow by in that situation and then Bass halfheartedly rotated over and gently hacks him.  It was pathetic.
Title: Re: The deferment to KG and PP is starting to get under my skin
Post by: kgainez on February 25, 2013, 11:57:44 AM
When the shot clock is running down, or when the game is tight and defenses tighten up it makes sense to let the plays run through PP and KG.  I don't think the PP ISO is a great offense, but that's not what we were running.  We were running an offense with PP initiating.  That's all.

Look at the other night in Denver ... it was a 2 point game, PP ran the pick and roll up top, beat his guy, drew the help and dished to Bradley who missed a wide open 16 footer.

The end result was we lost, but the play worked.  That's exactly the type of shot you want in that situation.

Look at the offense down the stretch tonight. Starting from when we were down 8:

1.  Pierce PnR pass to Bass for 2 points
2.  KG dunk off PP pass
3.  KG fouled, hits 2 FTs
4.  PP basket off KG pass
5.  Bass scores off KG pass
6.  KG misses off PP pass
7.  KG layup off PP pass
8.  PP misses 3

That's a pretty effective offense down the stretch.  Unfortunately our DEFENSE was porous.   

The Lilliard layup + foul was absolutely TERRIBLE defense in that situation.  Bradley is a phenomenal defender, but you cannot allow the blow by in that situation and then Bass halfheartedly rotated over and gently hacks him.  It was pathetic.

and i've already said i don't mind it down the stretch/in the 4th quarter.