CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rondohondo on February 24, 2013, 05:28:07 PM
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With the way Jeff Green is playing the last few months, and the way PP has been up and down all year, and losing a step , I just don't see how it makes much sense for him to be making 15 mil next year.
He is only partially guaranteed 4 or 5 mil next year , so a team looking to shed salary or a contender might have interest ?
Or should we just keep him for 1 more year , and try to make 1 more run next year with Rondo and Sully back before PP and KG ride off into the sunset ?
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As long as KG is here, you keep the best players you have to go with him.
Pierce is still the best SF and top 3 player on this team. He stays.
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As long as KG is here, you keep the best players you have to go with him.
Pierce is still the best SF and top 3 player on this team. He stays.
Might be fourth after Rondo/KG/Green.
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As long as KG is here, you keep the best players you have to go with him.
Pierce is still the best SF and top 3 player on this team. He stays.
Might be fourth after Rondo/KG/Green.
Pinched nerve Pierce is still the best SF on the Celtics.
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As long as KG is here, you keep the best players you have to go with him.
Pierce is still the best SF and top 3 player on this team. He stays.
Might be fourth after Rondo/KG/Green.
Pinched nerve Pierce is still the best SF on the Celtics.
I'm talking about 2013-2014 Pierce
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As long as KG is here, you keep the best players you have to go with him.
Pierce is still the best SF and top 3 player on this team. He stays.
Might be fourth after Rondo/KG/Green.
Pinched nerve Pierce is still the best SF on the Celtics.
I'm talking about 2013-2014 Pierce
Until I see a huge decline from what is out there now, Pierce is clearly the better player.
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As long as KG is here, you keep the best players you have to go with him.
Pierce is still the best SF and top 3 player on this team. He stays.
Might be fourth after Rondo/KG/Green.
Pinched nerve Pierce is still the best SF on the Celtics.
I'm talking about 2013-2014 Pierce
Until I see a huge decline from what is out there now, Pierce is clearly the better player.
Just because Pierce doesn't decline doesn't mean Green won't get much better ;D
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As long as KG is here, you keep the best players you have to go with him.
Pierce is still the best SF and top 3 player on this team. He stays.
Might be fourth after Rondo/KG/Green.
Pinched nerve Pierce is still the best SF on the Celtics.
I'm talking about 2013-2014 Pierce
Until I see a huge decline from what is out there now, Pierce is clearly the better player.
Just because Pierce doesn't decline doesn't mean Green won't get much better ;D
Let me know when he plays better did all those year with the Thunder. (you know, the way he is finally playing here in Boston)
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Let me know when he plays better did all those year with the Thunder. (you know, the way he is finally playing here in Boston)
I don't get it. ???
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Until I see a huge decline from what is out there now, Pierce is clearly the better player.
Not sure how this is defensible, Pierce clearly looks on his last legs: most shots are flat, driving to the basket is an issue, defense is pretty much nonexistent.
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As long as KG is here, you keep the best players you have to go with him.
Pierce is still the best SF and top 3 player on this team. He stays.
Might be fourth after Rondo/KG/Green.
Pinched nerve Pierce is still the best SF on the Celtics.
I'm talking about 2013-2014 Pierce
Until I see a huge decline from what is out there now, Pierce is clearly the better player.
Somebody needs to take their green-colored glasses off. While we need to see Green perform at this level for a much longer time and he's GOT to become a better rebounder, Green's size, speed and athleticism alone make it a close race between him and Pierce.
Pierce is a Hall of Famer and even running on fumes, he's still going to give you something. But while Green may never be close to being as good as Pierce was, Green is doing things for this team now that Pierce can't.
Mike
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As long as KG is here, you keep the best players you have to go with him.
Pierce is still the best SF and top 3 player on this team. He stays.
Might be fourth after Rondo/KG/Green.
Pinched nerve Pierce is still the best SF on the Celtics.
I'm talking about 2013-2014 Pierce
Until I see a huge decline from what is out there now, Pierce is clearly the better player.
Somebody needs to take their green-colored glasses off. While we need to see Green perform at this level for a much longer time and he's GOT to become a better rebounder, Green's size, speed and athleticism alone make it a close race between him and Pierce.
Pierce is a Hall of Famer and even running on fumes, he's still going to give you something. But while Green may never be close to being as good as Pierce was, Green is doing things for this team now that Pierce can't.
Mike
That is a long lists of "ifs" to make it "close"
Pierce is still the better player.
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
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This only happens if KG decides to retire. Pierce will be on this team until then.
Now, depending on how Pierce looks compared to Green for the remainder of this season, I wouldn't rule out switching their roles.
Maybe during the off-season, Doc has a talk with Pierce, and sees if he would accept a move to the bench. Pierce would still finish games, but with reduced minutes against lesser players, it might be to his and the team's benefit. This is stictly hypothetical though.
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This only happens if KG decides to retire. Pierce will be on this team until then.
Now, depending on how Pierce looks compared to Green for the remainder of this season, I wouldn't rule out switching their roles.
Maybe during the off-season, Doc has a talk with Pierce, and sees if he would accept a move to the bench. Pierce would still finish games, but with reduced minutes against lesser players, it might be to his and the team's benefit. This is stictly hypothetical though.
Then everyone is on the table to be traded.
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
Green is not greater then Pierce. It's not even close when you consider leadership and playmaking ability. I like what Green has been doing and his future still seems brighter then his present. However he has shown almost no ability to create for others and make them better. Pierce is still an elite SF and one of the best point forwards in the game.
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
Green is not greater then Pierce. It's not even close when you consider leadership and playmaking ability. I like what Green has been doing and his future still seems brighter then his present. However he has shown almost no ability to create for others and make them better. Pierce is still an elite SF and one of the best point forwards in the game.
Yeah, I love Jeff Green and am starting to get excited about a future with him at small forward, but, nah, he's not on Paul Pierce's level.
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Roy,
To be fair and objective, can you please run those numbers for January and February and get back with us with those?? I think we might be looking at a totally different set of statistics. I look forward to seeing those shortly.
And I do realize that two months is not a large sample, but Green seems to be getting better and better and PP worse and worse over the last two months.
Thanks for running those Roy.
Smitty77
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
And that's Green, who spent the first month of the season getting back into game shape after heart surgery. You can spin this either way.
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Roy,
To be fair and objective, can you please run those numbers for January and February and get back with us with those?? I think we might be looking at a totally different set of statistics. I look forward to seeing those shortly.
And I do realize that two months is not a large sample, but Green seems to be getting better and better and PP worse and worse over the last two months.
Thanks for running those Roy.
Smitty77
Pierce isn't getting worse. If I had a nickel for every time I've read that claim over the course of the past four years, well, I'd have a heck of a lot of nickels.
He's still an elite player, and he'll continue to have his ups and downs throughout the rest of the season, I'm sure. During the downs, everyone will post their theories about him being washed up, and during the ups, people will go; "wow, totally forgot the Truth could still do that."
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Should a trade be on the table as an option? Yes, and I am sure it is. Should Ainge shop Pierce around and take the best offer he gets? No. I'd probably say no to a hypothetical offer of the expiring contracts of a solid backup PF who isn't good enough to take the starting job from Bass and an overpaid aging point guard plus a first round draft pick likely to be in the 25-30 range.
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Roy,
To be fair and objective, can you please run those numbers for January and February and get back with us with those?? I think we might be looking at a totally different set of statistics. I look forward to seeing those shortly.
And I do realize that two months is not a large sample, but Green seems to be getting better and better and PP worse and worse over the last two months.
Thanks for running those Roy.
Smitty77
Pierce isn't getting worse. If I had a nickel for every time I've read that claim over the course of the past four years, well, I'd have a heck of a lot of nickels.
He's still an elite player, and he'll continue to have his ups and downs throughout the rest of the season, I'm sure. During the downs, everyone will post their theories about him being washed up, and during the ups, people will go; "wow, totally forgot the Truth could still do that."
pierce is still elite, but not as elite as he once was...or at least not elite on a consistent basis anymore. kozlo points out that pierce's shot is flat, he doesnt drive to the basket with the same authority and force he once did, and his defense is not consistently superior.
i see a pierce who has quarters, sometimes games, of elite performance. he still is a killer with timely 3 pointers.
but i also see him struggling some nights, more nights than used to be the case. some nights he looks just plain old.
pierce this season, i believe, is still good enough to help lift the celtics to victory against most nba teams in a short play off series. it is not a guarantee, but i wouldnt be surprised if he carried the team in a number of games in the playoffs.
but, he is aging and just watch his flat shot and his lack of lift when he jumps. it shows and eventually the "crafty veteran" stuff wont be enough to make up for deteriorating physical skills.
next year i would guess that barring injuries, pierce will still be one of the better sf in the nba. not elite, but very good with an occasional great outing.
in two years? geez....if he can play at even above average levels i would be very very pleased.
i state the obvious, i am good that. :) pierce is still good, but let's enjoy it while we can.
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If the right situation comes up he could be traded. I do not think the team does it to clear cap space per se unless KG retires.
I think the fight PP and KG have put up against father time is commendable but the slippage is visible. Knowing the best play to make via experience is quite valuable but as your athleticism slips there are less plays that you can make. I love watching these guys play but it is near the end of all star level play.
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Roy,
To be fair and objective, can you please run those numbers for January and February and get back with us with those?? I think we might be looking at a totally different set of statistics. I look forward to seeing those shortly.
And I do realize that two months is not a large sample, but Green seems to be getting better and better and PP worse and worse over the last two months.
Thanks for running those Roy.
Smitty77
Feel free to double check, as I did this in kind of a rush:
January and February:
Paul Pierce per 36: 17.2 points, 6.9 rebounds, 5.4 assists.
Jeff Green per 36: 16.4 points, 5.1 rebounds, 1.9 assists.
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I will do it myself.
PP vs. JG for January and February!!!
FG%: PP= 39.19% ///JG= 51.94%
3pt%: PP= 34.38% /// JG = 41.51%
PPG: PP= 16.24pts.// JG= 12.28pts.
FT%: PP=74.38% /// JG 84.52%
Rebs: PP= 7.4 /// JG 3.68
Assists: PP= 5.12 /// JG 1.4
Blocks: PP=.32 /// JG 1.12
Steals: PP=.96 ///JG .48
I will let someone else do the percentages or comparisons, but clearly Jeff has been FAR MORE efficient on offense and by the eyesight test, a better defender in Jan. and Feb. combined, but clearly in February.
Green clearly needs to rebound better and pass more. I would like to see him average about 1.5 steals per game as well.
Smitty77
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I will do it myself.
PP vs. JG for January and February!!!
FG%: PP= 39.19% ///JG= 51.94%
3pt%: PP= 34.38% /// JG = 41.51%
PPG: PP= 16.24pts.// JG= 12.28pts.
FT%: PP=74.38% /// JG 84.52%
Rebs: PP= 7.4 /// JG 3.68
Assists: PP= 5.12 /// JG 1.4
Blocks: PP=.32 /// JG 1.12
Steals: PP=.96 ///JG .48
I will let someone else do the percentages or comparisons, but clearly Jeff has been FAR MORE efficient on offense and by the eyesight test, a better defender in Jan. and Feb. combined, but clearly in February.
Green clearly needs to rebound better and pass more. I would like to see him average about 1.5 steals per game as well.
Smitty77
See above. I did the per 36 for you in points, rebounds, and assists.
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All of the Celtics are trade bait in the days leading up to the draft. No secret there. PP and KG in particular, with Rondo not far behind. If Danny sees a good trade, he'll take it (as he should).
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Roy,
To be fair and objective, can you please run those numbers for January and February and get back with us with those?? I think we might be looking at a totally different set of statistics. I look forward to seeing those shortly.
And I do realize that two months is not a large sample, but Green seems to be getting better and better and PP worse and worse over the last two months.
Thanks for running those Roy.
Smitty77
I don't think you need Roy to do that. Go to any stat site and click on "splits".
Anyways, Pierce is still outscoring Green the past two months, and dominating him in every other category besides blocks. Green is scoring more efficiently, however.
Pierce is still Top 5 at his position. Unless the Cs get a solid offer this summer, I can see ownership paying Pierce his money next year. Ownership places a value on PP's legacy, which they should.
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
And that's Green, who spent the first month of the season getting back into game shape after heart surgery. You can spin this either way.
How can you spin those numbers Green's way, without reaching for the 'poor baby doesn't get enough run' argument?
Having absolutely nothing to do with Green, i think the chances Pierce is playing for the Cs next year on his current contract is about 10%. I suspect when the season's over, they'll let him know they can't keep him at $16mil, try to trade him to a 'contender' -- to LAL for Gasol, for example, makes sense for both teams...thought I'm not sure the Lakers wouldn't then just cut him -- and if they can't, they'll release him from his deal.
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
And that's Green, who spent the first month of the season getting back into game shape after heart surgery. You can spin this either way.
How can you spin those numbers Green's way, without reaching for the 'poor baby doesn't get enough run' argument?
Having absolutely nothing to do with Green, i think the chances Pierce is playing for the Cs next year on his current contract is about 10%. I suspect when the season's over, they'll let him know they can't keep him at $16mil, try to trade him to a 'contender' -- to LAL for Gasol, for example, makes sense for both teams...thought I'm not sure the Lakers wouldn't then just cut him -- and if they can't, they'll release him from his deal.
For a player not too long removed from a heart surgery, he was getting plenty much burn early in the season.
Of course, our insistence to go to Pierce is understandable -- how can you pass on this .420 FG%.
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It is actually quite easy to spin those numbers in Green's direction and at least call them even offensively over the last two months. I do NOT feel that I am out on a limb AT ALL doing that.
Over 50% shooting compared to under 40% are NOT EVEN CLOSE. The three pt. % is not even close. The FT% is not even close.
Smitty77
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
Green is not greater then Pierce. It's not even close when you consider leadership and playmaking ability. I like what Green has been doing and his future still seems brighter then his present. However he has shown almost no ability to create for others and make them better. Pierce is still an elite SF and one of the best point forwards in the game.
green isn't better yet
Paul is almost 40 also. Green isn't even 30 yet
also...the way the team is now, i think we've outgrown the dominance needed by one person. it's a team effort. JG paired with Rondo or JG paired with Crawford or T-Will could be excellent.
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i have no clue how some of you can still hold on to Paul by saying he's elite lol
wow
KG, I think still has some left...more than Paul does
If we'd just stop comparing Jeff and Paul, things would be so much easier.
And the notion that every one should be on the trade table when Paul and KG leave is so awful. If we get a nice dominant big man -- let's say DJ White pans out and then you have Sully coming back...I'm not sure how we're a losing team with Rondo, Jeff, Sully, AB, Lee, Jet and a pure scorer in Crawford.
Now, that's if we hold on to them. But I'm really loving how DA is gathering the talent.
we are just outside of the big 3 style of play and need to move forward accordingly
no one seems to want to move on from paul or kg. some of us are still on ray. some of us still praise Doc. smh. IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON, GUYS!!
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It is actually quite easy to spin those numbers in Green's direction and at least call them even offensively over the last two months. I do NOT feel that I am out on a limb AT ALL doing that.
Over 50% shooting compared to under 40% are NOT EVEN CLOSE. The three pt. % is not even close. The FT% is not even close.
Smitty77
You actually didn't spin the numbers quoted at all, just came up with some new ones, but who cares.
Jeff Green's much improved scoring numbers over the past few weeks makes it easy to get carried away about his history as a player. A couple of key points here:
~ his rebounding numbers and assist-to-turnover ratio in particular can still use a great deal of improvement;
~ he's too one dimensional. as Jeff plays more, NBA coaches will begin shading him to the left more consistently, which is going to be a problem for him. he's going to have to put in the work there, but he should be able to improve if he stays healthy.
Regardless, it's equally easy to get carried away about the expendability of Pierce while Green is hot. If the Celtics have championship aspirations once the 2012-13 season is over (meaning, they don't decide to rebuild), I agree with the previous poster that it's premature to assume they can do so without Pierce.
But, as I pointed out above, I don't believe the Cs will continue to push the existing window over the summer. Which means all those Green slobberers are gonna get what they want in 2013-14: 35-40 minutes a night of Green Leaf.
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
And that's Green, who spent the first month of the season getting back into game shape after heart surgery. You can spin this either way.
How do you spin Green's performance last night? Completely mailed it in.
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
And that's Green, who spent the first month of the season getting back into game shape after heart surgery. You can spin this either way.
How do you spin Green's performance last night? Completely mailed it in.
Everyone has a down game. Hopefully Green will continue to have fewer now then he has in the past.
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Now I remember why I don't visit the Forums very often: any place where people are seriously saying that Jeff Green is as good as Pierce is not a place where serious arguments are going on.
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Now I remember why I don't visit the Forums very often: any place where people are seriously saying that Jeff Green is as good as Pierce is not a place where serious arguments are going on.
Because serious arguments only happen when people have the same opinion?
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Now I remember why I don't visit the Forums very often: any place where people are seriously saying that Jeff Green is as good as Pierce is not a place where serious arguments are going on.
who said anything about Green being as good as PP? It is obvious Green will never reach PP's level, but it's about the team salary cap and collecting future assets .
If Green can give you about 80% of what PP does, while being able to shed salary, or gain assets for the future, I don't see why the c's wouldn't do it . They have offered him in trades the last 2 years....
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Now I remember why I don't visit the Forums very often: any place where people are seriously saying that Jeff Green is as good as Pierce is not a place where serious arguments are going on.
who said anything about Green being as good as PP? It is obvious Green will never reach PP's level, but it's about the team salary cap and collecting future assets .
If Green can give you about 80% of what PP does, while being able to shed salary, or gain assets for the future, I don't see why the c's wouldn't do it . They have offered him in trades the last 2 years....
There are posters pushing the idea that Green is as good if not better then Pierce on this thread.
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There are posters pushing the idea that Green is as good if not better then Pierce on this thread.
When games like yesterday's are becoming more of an exception rather than the norm for Pierce, you better hope that the pinched nerve has something to do with it. That's all I have on the issue.
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The only trades where this makes sense are for teams that want to clear a "bad" or redundant contract or for teams that want to get more cap room. Thus, there are very few trades that I think would be out there.
Dallas seems like a team that might want some cap room and that wouldn't burden Boston that much. Dallas could trade Marion 9.3 (expiring), Carter 3.6 (expiring), Cunningham 1.2, maybe Crowder 800k (expiring), and a future pick. Dallas could then cut Pierce and essentially free up another 10+ million in cap room and really be in play for both Deron and Dwight to pair with Dirk.
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Green is not as good as Pierce, but Paul has clearly lost a step. Personally, I don't think it's fair to play him 35 mins a game anymore. I would like to see him come off the bench for 2 more years and play 20-25 mins a game. It would extend his career, and he is still has enough left that he could be very effective in that role. Mark it down, Paul Pierce @ 36, next year, wins the 6th man of the year award.
Plus we will really find out if Green can handle Boston once and for all.
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
And that's Green, who spent the first month of the season getting back into game shape after heart surgery. You can spin this either way.
How do you spin Green's performance last night? Completely mailed it in.
5 games in 7 nights
2 years until no effects (fatigue, tightness in chest, etc) from aortic heart surgery).
only at 1 year and 1 month.
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There are posters pushing the idea that Green is as good if not better then Pierce on this thread.
When games like yesterday's are becoming more of an exception rather than the norm for Pierce, you better hope that the pinched nerve has something to do with it. That's all I have on the issue.
Pierce is averaging 19, 6 and 5 in 33 mpg. He's good.
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Since Rondo went down....
Pierce is averaging 18 points 7 assists and 8 rebounds ... We are 10-4 with Pierce back in command of his offense.
He's had some shooting issues, but he's clearly still the best offensive player on this team. And overall I still have these players ranked as #1 - Healthy KG, #2 - Healthy Pierce, #3 - Healthy Rondo, #4 - Healthy Green
Every champion has an elite big and an elite scorer. Boston only goes as far as KG (an elite big) and Pierce (an elite scorer) takes them. You could try to dangle 37 year old Pierce at the deadline or during the draft, but I doubt you're going to get anything substantial for the old man at this point. You're best off just having him play in Boston until he retires.
NOte: Paul had a pretty rough stretch of shooting in the middle of those 14 games, but apparently he's dealing with a pinched nerve? He's shot over 50% in all of his last 4 games and brought his FG% up to 42% for the post-Rondo stretch.
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Since Rondo went down....
Pierce is averaging 18 points 7 assists and 8 rebounds ... We are 10-4 with Pierce back in command of his offense.
He's had some shooting issues, but he's clearly still the best offensive player on this team. And overall I still have these players ranked as #1 - Healthy KG, #2 - Healthy Pierce, #3 - Healthy Rondo, #4 - Healthy Green
Every champion has an elite big and an elite scorer. Boston only goes as far as KG (an elite big) and Pierce (an elite scorer) takes them. You could try to dangle 37 year old Pierce at the deadline or during the draft, but I doubt you're going to get anything substantial for the old man at this point. You're best off just having him play in Boston until he retires.
NOte: Paul had a pretty rough stretch of shooting in the middle of those 14 games, but apparently he's dealing with a pinched nerve? He's shot over 50% in all of his last 4 games and brought his FG% up to 42% for the post-Rondo stretch.
I agree they're not likely to get much value for him as a player.
I also doubt the Celtics are going to pay him $16mil to play for the 2013-14 team.
Regardless, you can be sure they'll shop his attractive contract around before the draft.
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Since Rondo went down....
Pierce is averaging 18 points 7 assists and 8 rebounds ... We are 10-4 with Pierce back in command of his offense.
He's had some shooting issues, but he's clearly still the best offensive player on this team. And overall I still have these players ranked as #1 - Healthy KG, #2 - Healthy Pierce, #3 - Healthy Rondo, #4 - Healthy Green
Every champion has an elite big and an elite scorer. Boston only goes as far as KG (an elite big) and Pierce (an elite scorer) takes them. You could try to dangle 37 year old Pierce at the deadline or during the draft, but I doubt you're going to get anything substantial for the old man at this point. You're best off just having him play in Boston until he retires.
Healthy Rondo is our best player and has been for years. The team also generally goes as far as he takes them as well. Pierce is fully capable of carrying a team but not as regularly as he used to. Someone mentioned our 20-5 finish last year. Rondo averaged 13.5 assists over that time and followed that by having the 7 highest assist games of anyone in the playoffs, 9 of the top 10 and more than half the total 10+ assist games that occurred in the playoffs. Paul can play great as well, just not necessarily for a 45 game stretch.
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Pierce on the C's this year is worth more than anything you could get for him this year. Next year, is next year.
Yes, $16 million is a lot of money to pay Paul next year. I'm sure Danny and Wyc would like to pay him less. I'm also pretty sure both of them would *like* Paul to still be playing for the C's next year. What can they do?
Well the two options that stand out are:
1. Pick up the guarantee and pay him $16 million. This will limit who can be brought in for the MLE. I think the C's will be limited to the tax payers MLE at about $4 million and they need a quality Center. Won't get one for that price.
2. Don't pick up the guarantee and Pierce is a Free Agent with the C's on the hook for $5 million. The C's would save enough money to use the full MLE, and maybe be able to add a middle of the pack Center, but that's it. Pierce would be gone and that hurts!
3. Trade Paul for expirings and picks, but would they get anyone good enough for losing Pierce...unlikely. Plus with Paul gone, KG might be gone too. Those of us that prefer to "rebuild on the fly" rather than "go tanking for balls" won't like any of this.
But just exactly what else they can do? Is there any way to keep Pierce on the squad for a lower salary than that $16 million, maybe opening up the opportunity to add full MLE player?
1. Can they re-negotiate a deal with Paul before July 1 for less money but extending over a couple of extra years?
2. Can they not pick up the guarantee and then re-sign Paul for less money?
I think the answers to the two questions above is CBA says no, but I'm hoping I'm wrong.
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I would like to table this topic for another day. Right now I say bring him back and make another run with the troops with a healthy Rondo and Sullenger. That is what Danny and Doc originally intended last off-season and we all thought this team could contend in the Conference Finals against Miami.
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Yeah, 15 mil is pretty pricey
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To the OP:
Yes, he'll be trade bait around the draft, but I suspect he'll stay with the Cs.
If he stays with the Cs, he'll also be trade bait at the trade deadline next Feb.
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This is what will happen, he obviously want's to remain a Celtics, the Organization obviously want's him(they would give him up for a bigger value), so I gather they will void the current contract, and just spread around that same money for another 2 or 3 years
expl. his current contract is 16 mill for another 2 years and they will sign a 4 mil 4 year deal or something like that, it will give the Celtics a nice cap space, plus you get to keep still a top SF in the game(no trade clause involved)
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Are we absolutely sure Pierce can’t restructure his deal like he did last time? I know it wasn't really restructuring, but he had the option to opt out and sign a new deal.
I would love to see Pierce and Danny rip up his current deal this summer and sign something like 3 years/ $30 million so he can retire in Boston.
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The uniqueness of his current deal (Only $5 million or so guaranteed on that final year) makes it so nobody really knows for sure if what I presented can be done.
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
And that's Green, who spent the first month of the season getting back into game shape after heart surgery. You can spin this either way.
Let's all settle this nice and simple.
How many 40 point games has Green had this season?
How many triple doubles has Green had this season?
How many times has Green led the Celtics in scoring, rebounding or assists during a single game?
Now compare those numbers to Pierce, then come back to me.
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
And that's Green, who spent the first month of the season getting back into game shape after heart surgery. You can spin this either way.
Let's all settle this nice and simple.
How many 40 point games has Green had this season?
How many triple doubles has Green had this season?
How many times has Green led the Celtics in scoring, rebounding or assists during a single game?
Now compare those numbers to Pierce, then come back to me.
Not sure what this comment is supposed to indicate. Pierce gets the ball on every trip down the floor. He's filling up the stat sheet and doing this with so-so efficiency more often rather than not.
As I said already, this better be the pinched nerve.
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
And that's Green, who spent the first month of the season getting back into game shape after heart surgery. You can spin this either way.
Let's all settle this nice and simple.
How many 40 point games has Green had this season?
How many triple doubles has Green had this season?
How many times has Green led the Celtics in scoring, rebounding or assists during a single game?
Now compare those numbers to Pierce, then come back to me.
Not sure what this comment is supposed to indicate. Pierce gets the ball on every trip down the floor. He's filling up the stat sheet and doing this with so-so efficiency more often rather than not.
As I said already, this better be the pinched nerve.
Stop comparing. You simply cannot. Pierce is our leader, Green is a role player.
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Did someone just rank a healthy Rondo 3rd on our team BEHIND PP and KG???:-)))))))))
As the infamous John McEnroe once said, "You can NOT be serious!!!!"
Smitty77
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
And that's Green, who spent the first month of the season getting back into game shape after heart surgery. You can spin this either way.
Let's all settle this nice and simple.
How many 40 point games has Green had this season?
How many triple doubles has Green had this season?
How many times has Green led the Celtics in scoring, rebounding or assists during a single game?
Now compare those numbers to Pierce, then come back to me.
Not sure what this comment is supposed to indicate. Pierce gets the ball on every trip down the floor. He's filling up the stat sheet and doing this with so-so efficiency more often rather than not.
As I said already, this better be the pinched nerve.
Stop comparing. You simply cannot. Pierce is our leader, Green is a role player.
Well, like leader, like team, I guess.
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On a per-minute basis, Pierce is averaging 24% more points than Green, 37% more rebounds, three times more assists, and 56% more steals. That's with Pierce playing with a pinched nerve.
I think the "Green is better" argument is pretty premature.
And that's Green, who spent the first month of the season getting back into game shape after heart surgery. You can spin this either way.
Let's all settle this nice and simple.
How many 40 point games has Green had this season?
How many triple doubles has Green had this season?
How many times has Green led the Celtics in scoring, rebounding or assists during a single game?
Now compare those numbers to Pierce, then come back to me.
]
the comparison game is getting old
when will you all understand that Pierce is being asked to be THAT guy and Jeff is NOT?
Let's revisit this comment when Jeff is asked to be THAT guy minus a Rondo.
Also, I love the way we bring up a pinched nerve in a NECK like that's more serious than surgery...you know...in a heart.
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I don't understand why people are arguing about who is better, PP or Green. The argument is basically irrelevant. IMO, whether PP and/or KG are traded has much less to do with player evals and everything to do with Rondo's ACL and the new CBA.
This time it's different.
The 2007-2013 run is over. There's no getting around it. As currently constituted, there is no title shot this season nor next. Yes, Rondo will play next season, but at diminished capacity. PP, KG, and Terry will all be a year older. The Cs will be worse, not better.
Rondo's ACL tear couldn't come at a worse time. Next season, PP will be in his contract year and Rondo is missing some of his prime years. This season is lost for Rondo and next season he will still be recovering. By the time Rondo is back at 100% for the 14/15 season, he will be 28/29 and in the last year of his contract. KG;s contract year to.
If Rondo recovers to the expected 100% then he will rightly demand/deserve a max deal, 16-20 million a year for 5 years. Do Danny and Wyc want to pony up $110 million to Rondo? Does Danny believe that Rondo will be a max-deserving playing at 32, 33, or 34 y/o? These are the issue that the Cs front office are dealing with. What happens to PP & KG will be a result of their decision on how to deal with Rondo.
Add to the this that the new CBA is very restrictive to over-the-cap teams and VERY harshly penalizing to over the tax teams. The Cs have to be very careful on who they spend their $$$ on. For Example, the Cs somehow do a s&t for Josh Smith and extend Rondo at the max, roughly 50% of the tax threshold. The Cs will have little latitude to do anything if either of those player fail to play to their expected levels.
For these reasons, I believe everyone on the Cs roster is fair game to be traded and probably will be traded.
If Danny & Wyc don't believe Rondo is a max player, he may be moved this summer or by next. Keeping PP & KG around for that doesn't make much sense... except to sell tickets to a 35-40 win team.
Perhaps, without PP & KG, Danny will tell Rondo to not rush back, tanking the season in an effort to land Wiggins or Parker.
The only ways that I can see both PP & KG sticking around is if one of these 3 happen:
1 - There are no legit deals for either of them. Even in this case, KG may retire or PP is bought out of his contract for whatever reason.
2 - Danny trades Rondo for some immediate help, e.g. Rondo for Cousins and Thomas. Danny wants to keep PP & KG around to keep Cousins in-line and show him what it takes to win.
3 - Danny fleas another GM out of a prime asset for very little, e.g. Kahn trading Big Al to Utah for next to nothing or Morey netting TRob for spare parts and $$$. This is of course the dream. Rondo, PP, KG, and a shiny new player. This is however, the least likely of the three.
Mk
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Now I remember why I don't visit the Forums very often: any place where people are seriously saying that Jeff Green is as good as Pierce is not a place where serious arguments are going on.
Was thinking the exact same thing. Pierce is still top 5 SF in the nba.
Paul George and dengs stats weren't as good as pierces and he was robbed of an all star spot.
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Eventually this team need to move on. I think it is 50/50 whether or not KG retires this off season or decides to play.
They aren't a title contender this season.
If not this off season then when?
They are looking more and more like the early 90's Bird era Celtic's. Dragging it out gets more and more painful to watch each season you hang onto the past.
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To rely on Jeff green over pierce next year would be extremely silly. Pierce is the better player by a long shot and will be next year as well whether he retires or not.
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I don't understand why people are arguing about who is better, PP or Green. The argument is basically irrelevant.
Agreed.
1 - ... PP is bought out of his contract for whatever reason.
Isn't next season a team option? No need for buy out if the contract is over.
3 - Danny fleas another GM
That would be a blessing in the skies. :D
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1 - ... PP is bought out of his contract for whatever reason.
Isn't next season a team option? No need for buy out if the contract is over.
PP has a partially guaranteed ($5 million) contract for next season. Bad language on my part, but the Cs can cut Paul and only pay him $5 million. This would save the team $10.3 million in cash and cap room. It's not a *real* buyout, but serves the same purpose.
Also, PP has a Player Option for next season. Theoretically, he could opt out and sign a longer term contract somewhere else. The cascading effect would be that KG would either retire or request a trade, forcing a rebuild on the Cs.
The scenario would be awful for the Cs. The Cs may not get anything in return for PP. Plus, Danny would loose most of his KG trade leverage. A Bledsoe, Jordan, and a pick type package would be long gone.
Mk
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I wouldn't be surprised if both players decided to retire before the draft but didn't fill out their paperwork.
The Celtics would then trade them on draft night to teams that want to create cap space. In return we would take on salary but also get draft picks or young players.
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I wouldn't be surprised if both players decided to retire before the draft but didn't fill out their paperwork.
The Celtics would then trade them on draft night to teams that want to create cap space. In return we would take on salary but also get draft picks or young players.
That's an interesting thought. I would be a little surprised in PP retired though. To me, he seems like the kind of player who has so much fun playing the game and hanging with his teammates that he would keep playing as long as he was able to.
KG on the other hand, is a different kind of person. Even though he played really well this season and should be productive next season and beyond, I could see him retiring this off-season and never looking back.
Mk
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I wouldn't be surprised if both players decided to retire before the draft but didn't fill out their paperwork.
The Celtics would then trade them on draft night to teams that want to create cap space. In return we would take on salary but also get draft picks or young players.
That's an interesting thought. I would be a little surprised in PP retired though. To me, he seems like the kind of player who has so much fun playing the game and hanging with his teammates that he would keep playing as long as he was able to.
KG on the other hand, is a different kind of person. Even though he played really well this season and should be productive next season and beyond, I could see him retiring this off-season and never looking back.
Mk
I think this pinched nerve in his neck situation, that won't go away until the offseason could be a good reason for him to hang it up permanently. I have a friend who has been unable to play sports for about a year due to a pinched nerve in his neck, he's 25 and a good athlete (number one singles player on the uconn tennis team a few years ago)