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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: krook on February 16, 2013, 08:28:52 PM

Title: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: krook on February 16, 2013, 08:28:52 PM
(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/7786/61123207.png)
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on February 16, 2013, 08:42:01 PM
Jet Green could become a LOT better...a lot more consistant....he IS just one season back from MAJOR surgery....he has plenty of talent and ability to become VERY good...sometimes he looks like James Worthy....sometimes he looks like he is not Worthy......another year more..he can be great, or almost a star....he has the potential......and is bringing it sometimes..!
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: vinnie on February 16, 2013, 08:42:56 PM
If we could get Josh Smith as part of a Jeff Green trade, I would do it in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: CelticG1 on February 16, 2013, 08:49:42 PM
The thing with Josh smith is that I wouldn't want to pay him near max money at all.

I think thats what he's looking for and I think that would be one of the worst decisions ever for us to make. Besides him not being good enough to earn that i just don't like his mental capacity that much either. He's not tough. Didn't he sit out the end of a playoff game last year and then miss the next one for what seemed like a minor injury? I mean he came back and played a game later but still kind of embarrassing if you ask me
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: csfansince60s on February 16, 2013, 08:51:35 PM
If we could get Josh Smith as part of a Jeff Green trade, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Me too.

While I think Green is going to improve, our window doesn't allow us to wait for that. We need help now, and Smith gives us the rebounding and rim protection we need now.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: CelticG1 on February 16, 2013, 08:57:50 PM
If we could get Josh Smith as part of a Jeff Green trade, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Me too.

While I think Green is going to improve, our window doesn't allow us to wait for that. We need help now, and Smith gives us the rebounding and rim protection we need now.

Since this isn't in a vaccuum I'm assuming both of you would extend him the full max which he reportedly is asking for?

Or would you just want him for a rental this season?

If you are talking in a vaccum I'll take Smith but when you factor in paying him a max contract I think it's a no brainer that you can't do that.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: bfrombleacher on February 16, 2013, 08:59:23 PM
Green is still recovering from heart surgery.

So yes. He can still be better.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 16, 2013, 09:14:31 PM
I think he will improve, maybe stats slightly ,    but he is starting to become a better all around contributor ,  I hope this continues,   he seems truly happy as a Celtic,   hope he sticks.........if not I could live with Smith, always liked his game too.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: badshar on February 16, 2013, 09:14:58 PM
I have always said that Jeff Green has the capability to be one of the top SF's in the league and be in the same class as LeBron, Durant, Carmelo and I will continue to say that.

I would love it if we can have Smith without giving up Green, but I guess that is very very unlikely.

Although, that's the best thing that can happen.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: badshar on February 16, 2013, 09:16:36 PM
If we could get Josh Smith as part of a Jeff Green trade, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Me too.

While I think Green is going to improve, our window doesn't allow us to wait for that. We need help now, and Smith gives us the rebounding and rim protection we need now.

Since this isn't in a vaccuum I'm assuming both of you would extend him the full max which he reportedly is asking for?

Or would you just want him for a rental this season?

If you are talking in a vaccum I'll take Smith but when you factor in paying him a max contract I think it's a no brainer that you can't do that.
Or maybe he is purposely asking for a max, knowing that the hawks won't give it, so he can go to the Celtics and not get the crazy criticism that LeBron received?

Just something to think about...
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Clench123 on February 16, 2013, 09:31:27 PM
I would trade him for Josh in a heartbeat.  All you have to do is take a loook at that stat.  Big difference.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: lightspeed5 on February 16, 2013, 09:32:01 PM
lebron got criticism for making a tv show about his exit, not because of his exit.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: twistedrico14 on February 16, 2013, 09:33:10 PM
I would not give up Jeff Green for Josh Smith, no thank you.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Q_FBE on February 16, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
Can we get Josh Smith without trading Jeff Green? I don't want to trade Jeff Green considering  how much investment the Celtics put on him.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Kane3387 on February 16, 2013, 09:39:47 PM
lebron got criticism for making a tv show about his exit, not because of his exit.

The celebration afterwards where he wade and bosh we're on stage brought the most "heat".
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: kozlodoev on February 16, 2013, 09:47:22 PM
Is it really necessary to open threads that are pretty much parallel to already ongoing discussions?
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: sdceltsfan on February 16, 2013, 10:44:07 PM
Jeff Green at 9 mil per season > Josh Smith on a max-deal

I would rather have the other 6-9 million that Smith would take up on the cap, to add an additional talented piece to the ROSTER. Unless the guy is top 5 at his position, why pay him a max deal?

Josh Smith is neither a top 5 PF or top 5 SF in the NBA right now, IMO. He would be great to have, and if we got him in the offseason in a sign and trade involving Green and Bass, or agrees now to certain future terms, then it would be a worthwhile move.

I want no part of Josh Smith under the premise that he makes max-money.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: vinnie on February 16, 2013, 10:55:07 PM
I have always said that Jeff Green has the capability to be one of the top SF's in the league and be in the same class as LeBron, Durant, Carmelo and I will continue to say that.

I would love it if we can have Smith without giving up Green, but I guess that is very very unlikely.

Although, that's the best thing that can happen.

The same class as Lebron, Durant and Carmelo? You certainly forgot to use the sarcasm font, right?
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: bfrombleacher on February 16, 2013, 10:57:43 PM
Is it really necessary to open threads that are pretty much parallel to already ongoing discussions?

Absolutely so Celticsblog can keep hating on the players
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: vinnie on February 16, 2013, 10:58:58 PM
Is it really necessary to open threads that are pretty much parallel to already ongoing discussions?

Absolutely so Celticsblog can keep hating on the players

Who is being hated on in this thread? Just curious.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: rondohondo on February 16, 2013, 11:08:38 PM
Wrong thread
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 16, 2013, 11:18:27 PM
He can be better without Pierce. MORE PT
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: bfrombleacher on February 16, 2013, 11:23:20 PM
Is it really necessary to open threads that are pretty much parallel to already ongoing discussions?

Absolutely so Celticsblog can keep hating on the players

Who is being hated on in this thread? Just curious.

Not yet but most other threads end up critiquing the players.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Kane3387 on February 16, 2013, 11:30:05 PM
I would like to acquire Smith without moving Green. Hope that happens.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 17, 2013, 01:01:29 AM
a few months this trade would of been a no brainer. Right now, hell no . Jeff Green is here to stay

I don't know what happened, but he finally "got it" and is playing like he is possessed.

He has tremendous skills, body, and using baseball terminology is like a 5 tool player. Dominating on defense and on offense he is just 80 percent activated. If paul wasn't here, i'm sure he is capable of doing more (maybe even more than he even knew). Shot has improved

He just has no fear out there and playing agressive. Has this , guys i'll carry you on my back or i'll make you get out of your seat Celts fans attitude. Its awesome. At this rate, 9 million dollar a year looks a bargain for this guy
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: KGs Knee on February 17, 2013, 01:27:13 AM
I would like to acquire Smith without moving Green. Hope that happens.

In order to do such a deal this season we would have to give up too many players.  We can only take on (at most) $1mil in incoming salary.  Smith is currently making $13.2mil.

Trading Green is likely our only chance, unless we are trading KG/Pierce.  As it is, trading Green would still require one of Bass/Lee/Terry to match salaries.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: wdleehi on February 17, 2013, 01:30:54 AM
Can I vote neither long term? 



Both are good players.  But both end up being overpayed for a team rebuilding. 
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: bfrombleacher on February 17, 2013, 02:08:33 AM
Is it really necessary to open threads that are pretty much parallel to already ongoing discussions?

Absolutely so Celticsblog can keep hating on the players

Who is being hated on in this thread? Just curious.

Not yet but most other threads end up critiquing the players.

Misread.

Rondo, Green, Lee...even the old guys...every thread turns into someone suggesting a trade or complaining about the players.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: mctyson on February 17, 2013, 09:10:36 AM
The thing with Josh smith is that I wouldn't want to pay him near max money at all.

This is the important point with Josh Smith.  All things being equal, it is a nobrainer trade.  But all things are not equal.  Smith is a free agent this summer.  He wants to get paid.  I am not sure what the Celtics could offer him but no doubt there are many teams that can offer him more.  He does not seem like the type of guy who is going to take less to play in Boston.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: dreamgreen on February 17, 2013, 09:46:59 AM
I think Green is/will get better. I agree with some of the other posters about keeping Green and getting Smith. Those two paired together could have real potential. Down side is it would probably take PP to make that happen so it would depend on what Danny's plan was.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: csfansince60s on February 17, 2013, 10:07:36 AM
Earlier in this thread, I stated that I was for trading Jeff Green for Smith.

While that has not changed, his cost may have gone up.

Woj reports that Bucks, Nets, Wiz. '6ers also in hunt. Now this could be Ferry leaking this to drive the market up for Smith.

However, if it is true, I think we would have to give up more than Green + filler, and I'm not sure I'm down for that.

Bucks are reportedly offering Jennings/Ilyasova. Don't think that we can match that without gutting the team, and we're down bodies already. Nets don't worry me with Humphries/Brooks. Not sure about what Wiz and '6ers can offer.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: ssspence on February 17, 2013, 10:42:19 AM
It makes no sense whatsoever for Ferry to trade Smith's entire cap hit for 3 years of Jeff Green plus 2 years of another middle-of-the-road Celtic (Lee or Bass). None. Nada. Zero. Zilch.

Cs fans should stop fantasizing about it, or any Jeff Green trade. 
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: scaryjerry on February 17, 2013, 11:24:28 AM
How overrated has josh Smith become within Celtics nation?

My God...have you tuned out of the games we've played the hawks? you think Jeff green is an under achiever or rondo is infuriating to watch all season? Lol. Josh Smith sucks
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: BballTim on February 17, 2013, 12:17:19 PM
Earlier in this thread, I stated that I was for trading Jeff Green for Smith.

While that has not changed, his cost may have gone up.

Woj reports that Bucks, Nets, Wiz. '6ers also in hunt. Now this could be Ferry leaking this to drive the market up for Smith.

However, if it is true, I think we would have to give up more than Green + filler, and I'm not sure I'm down for that.

Bucks are reportedly offering Jennings/Ilyasova. Don't think that we can match that without gutting the team, and we're down bodies already. Nets don't worry me with Humphries/Brooks. Not sure about what Wiz and '6ers can offer.

  I think I read somewhere that the Sixers were thinking about moving Turner. He'd probably be the centerpiece of the offer.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: badshar on February 17, 2013, 12:21:55 PM
I have always said that Jeff Green has the capability to be one of the top SF's in the league and be in the same class as LeBron, Durant, Carmelo and I will continue to say that.

I would love it if we can have Smith without giving up Green, but I guess that is very very unlikely.

Although, that's the best thing that can happen.

The same class as Lebron, Durant and Carmelo? You certainly forgot to use the sarcasm font, right?

No, I did not. He has shown many times that he can dominate with the ball and I will continue to believe that whether others agree or make fun of it
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Sketch5 on February 17, 2013, 01:06:26 PM
No way I want to get rid of Green for Smith. Yeah Smith on paper is better, but going forward I'd rather see Green and Smith out on the wings on the fast break. Or either of them leading the break.

Gives us good D at the 3 and 4 spot, you add that with Bradley and Rondo roaming around and then try to bring in a defensive center, thats pretty good.

But if we did have both Green and Smith I would rather try to get a good out side SG and move AB to the bench so the floor is spread a little better.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Geo123 on February 17, 2013, 01:13:15 PM
Green definitely can get better, plus when you compare contracts (what it would cost to sign Smith) that's another plus for Green..
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: vinnie on February 17, 2013, 01:44:58 PM
I have always said that Jeff Green has the capability to be one of the top SF's in the league and be in the same class as LeBron, Durant, Carmelo and I will continue to say that.

I would love it if we can have Smith without giving up Green, but I guess that is very very unlikely.

Although, that's the best thing that can happen.

The same class as Lebron, Durant and Carmelo? You certainly forgot to use the sarcasm font, right?

No, I did not. He has shown many times that he can dominate with the ball and I will continue to believe that whether others agree or make fun of it

This is vintage comedy, right here.  ;D
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: kgainez on February 17, 2013, 02:16:47 PM
well here's my thing.

i'm no lover of Jeff Green's contract, but I assumed he was signed because there's future things that DA and maybe Doc can see. 9 mill for 4 years says to me, hey, we'd REALLY like you to stay.

with that being said, it's no secret that I'm a JG fan but I'm more of a Celtics fan. I'd love to see JG a little more before I say heck yes to this trade.

We tend to forget (and i know you all hate to hear it) that he's a year removed from heart surgery WHERE THEY HAD TO STOP HIS HEART FOR 5 HOURS. Drs. don't expect him to be 100% until NEXT year...

so if this is his 50-75% that he's playing RIGHT NOW on this 10 game strip (and even since January), I'd love to see what his 95-110% looks like.

Jeff has things that are very easy to work on...I think he has a lot of raw talent in some places. Develop more of a post, a more consistent jump shot, learn how to finish better at the rim and I don't see why we don't have some one who's just as good as Josh Smith.

We have Jeff playing 2-4, guarding 1-4 (some 5) nightly...Josh Smith is cool. But...he seems just as passive if not moreso and is a bonehead. I'm not 100% sold on Josh Smith.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: kgainez on February 17, 2013, 02:21:25 PM
I have always said that Jeff Green has the capability to be one of the top SF's in the league and be in the same class as LeBron, Durant, Carmelo and I will continue to say that.

I would love it if we can have Smith without giving up Green, but I guess that is very very unlikely.

Although, that's the best thing that can happen.

The same class as Lebron, Durant and Carmelo? You certainly forgot to use the sarcasm font, right?

No, I did not. He has shown many times that he can dominate with the ball and I will continue to believe that whether others agree or make fun of it

This is vintage comedy, right here.  ;D

I literally do not know who vinnie likes on the current Celtics squad...nor do I know why he's a Celtic fan.

At any rate...for the original comment...I think that JG has as much talent as a LeBron, KD or Melo...the reason why JG will never be seen on that level is because JG is not the #1 option or the #1 scorer. I'm not sure JG can turn it on like these other guys, but I continue to say, with some work, he'd definitely be a beast. LeBron-esque because Melo and KD seem like purer scorers to me. Not really creators.

I think JG will be a GREAT x-factor and if he learns how to play like these guys coming off the bench or being a 2nd or 3rd option, he can be...deadly.

Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: cman88 on February 17, 2013, 02:23:05 PM
Everyone is forgetting the elphant in the room...Josh Smith wants MAX $$

is he really THAT talented for the C's to invest that many assets/ Capital for him??

granted I think he would be a Much better player with Rondo getting him the ball...but I just dont think he's worth Max money
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: LooseCannon on February 17, 2013, 02:56:54 PM
Stipulating that end-of-game isos are usually stupid, if you had to pick one player to put the ball in his hands for the last shot of the game, down one, would you prefer Jeff Green or Josh Smith, and how close is the decision?
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: krook on February 17, 2013, 03:59:12 PM
Stipulating that end-of-game isos are usually stupid, if you had to pick one player to put the ball in his hands for the last shot of the game, down one, would you prefer Jeff Green or Josh Smith, and how close is the decision?

green for sure, smith hits too many awful badshots
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Fred Roberts on February 17, 2013, 04:13:54 PM
Yes, I think he can and will be better. Keep him.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: krook on April 16, 2013, 05:00:35 AM
Yes, I think he can and will be better. Keep him.

agree
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 16, 2013, 06:09:43 AM
Josh Smith needs somebody like Garnet to drive him.   He plays like Rondo, at what ever speed he feels like that night.    Smith would wear out his welcome really fast in Boston without KG to stay on him.

Like Greens attitude better and think he be even better player next year than current.  Green may be one of the few players in the nba with the tools to cover LBJ.

I like Smith, but he needs to be part of a team with at least one player better and more driven than himself.    Smith is not a max contract franchise player IMO.

I would trade Green as part of a deal for DMC . or K Love.

like to see Sully, Green, and DMC
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: CelticConcourse on April 16, 2013, 07:08:36 AM
Give me Jeff at nine mil for three years.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Celtics4ever on April 16, 2013, 07:19:28 AM
Keep Jeff.  If PP stays and KG leaves maybe offer him some of KG's salary but I agree KG would be best to motivate him.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: chambers on April 16, 2013, 07:43:45 AM
 I wouldn't trade Jeff for Josh Smith.
Funny thing is if you asked me 4-5 months ago I probably would.
I'd like Josh to play with Jeff though.
Smoove at PF and Green at SF

Imagine the starting 5 of:

Rondo
Green
Smoove
Sully
KG

With Avery + Bass off the bench.
We somehow dump Courtney Lee and Terry (Maybe Bass too)
Would be great if we could afford Pierce and Smoove and just have Sully off the bench with Avery. Don't think we can get rid of all those sucky contracts though.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: chambers on April 16, 2013, 07:46:42 AM
Josh Smith needs somebody like Garnet to drive him.   He plays like Rondo, at what ever speed he feels like that night.    Smith would wear out his welcome really fast in Boston without KG to stay on him.

Like Greens attitude better and think he be even better player next year than current.  Green may be one of the few players in the nba with the tools to cover LBJ.

I like Smith, but he needs to be part of a team with at least one player better and more driven than himself.    Smith is not a max contract franchise player IMO.

I would trade Green as part of a deal for DMC . or K Love.

like to see Sully, Green, and DMC

Good points about motivating Smoove. TP
I would move Green + Avery for DMC.
would love to somehow keept Rondo and DMC and Sully.
If we could keep Green, DMC, Rondo and Sully I'd be stoked.


Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: wdleehi on April 16, 2013, 08:04:24 AM
I would be perfectly happy moving Green for a strong starting big man, but not Smith because of the contract he would likely be receiving.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Snakehead on April 16, 2013, 08:17:53 AM

I think Green could have a really big year next year with this "leap" year under his belt.  His recovery is said to take a year as well, so I do anticipate more consistency.

I have always really liked Josh Smith, but the contract he could get could be an issue.  I do think he gets too much hate from some, as he would be a much better fit off of Rondo in a smaller ball handling/play making role here, but the contract could still be a bit much and there's no denying some level of "bone headed"-ness.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: CelticsFanNC on April 16, 2013, 08:34:08 AM
  I also think Josh Smith is way over rated among Celtic fans.  He does a lot of things well but nothing consistently and doesn't seem to play smart when it matters most.  He has the physical tools but is a basketball airhead IMO.  If KG were going to be around day in and day out to guide him for the next five years he might be worth the gamble but that isn't the case.

  I don't know if Green will ever be better then he is right now.  Right now he is pretty darn good but still a bit inconsistent.  He should be in better physical condition next season. 

  Smith wants and will get more money then we are paying Green.  He's not worth it.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Evantime34 on April 16, 2013, 10:09:51 AM
I'm a big Josh Smith guy but I would rather have Jeff Green. Green makes less bone headed plays, takes less bad shots and is going to make a lot less money.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Fafnir on April 16, 2013, 10:14:06 AM
I'm a big Josh Smith guy but I would rather have Jeff Green. Green makes less bone headed plays, takes less bad shots and is going to make a lot less money.
I'd rather have the impact shot blocking, rebounding, and other non-scoring contributions.

But giving him the max, blah.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: indeedproceed on April 16, 2013, 12:47:21 PM
I'm a big Josh Smith guy but I would rather have Jeff Green. Green makes less bone headed plays, takes less bad shots and is going to make a lot less money.
I'd rather have the impact shot blocking, rebounding, and other non-scoring contributions.

But giving him the max, blah.

Yeah, on paper, Smith looks like an obvious 'yes'.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=smithjo03&y1=2013&p2=greenje02&y2=2013

Per-minute, identical scoring, identical FG%, identical FTA's with JG having an edge in 3pt% and FT%, and Josh Smith being better literally everywhere else.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: KGs Knee on April 16, 2013, 12:51:42 PM
Just out of curiosity, what is the most (dollars) you'd feel comfortable paying Smith on a per season basis?

I don't think max contract levels have yet been set for the 2013-14 season, but I'm assuming the max for Smith (7-9 years service)* will be approx $17m.

Smith is currently being paid $13.2m.

* Max Salary=.3[.4214((X-Y)/30)]; X=Projected BRI, Y=Projected Player Benefits
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: indeedproceed on April 16, 2013, 01:09:07 PM
I think Smith's current contract is very fair. Max contract looks like a 'one of these things is not like the other', even when you factor in all you young bucks who have max extensions (Harden, Ibaka, Westbrook, etc).
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: BballTim on April 16, 2013, 01:40:38 PM
I'm a big Josh Smith guy but I would rather have Jeff Green. Green makes less bone headed plays, takes less bad shots and is going to make a lot less money.
I'd rather have the impact shot blocking, rebounding, and other non-scoring contributions.

But giving him the max, blah.

Yeah, on paper, Smith looks like an obvious 'yes'.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=smithjo03&y1=2013&p2=greenje02&y2=2013

Per-minute, identical scoring, identical FG%, identical FTA's with JG having an edge in 3pt% and FT%, and Josh Smith being better literally everywhere else.

  There's a pretty big difference (12% or so) in TS%, and the turnovers favor Jeff as well. Smith might get the edge, but it's pretty slight.

  Smallish sample size, but if Green keeps playing at his post all-star level next season which player would you say is more likely to be a 2014 all-star? I'd actually go with Green.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Evantime34 on April 16, 2013, 01:45:10 PM
They seem like they are different players. Green is more of a scoring 3. Smith is more of an athletic, shot blocking, rebounding four.

I think if we had both we could have the makings of a solid team. (assuming KG and Pierce retire/get traded)
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: KGs Knee on April 16, 2013, 01:58:26 PM
They seem like they are different players. Green is more of a scoring 3. Smith is more of an athletic, shot blocking, rebounding four.

I think if we had both we could have the makings of a solid team. (assuming KG and Pierce retire/get traded)

I think it could potentially be a devastating duo, especially when you add in Rondo's game-managing abilities.  The likely-hood of acquiring Smith and keeping Green is slim, though.

I just don't see any trade Atlanta would have interest in that doesn't involve Green.  Signing him as a FA would also be difficult.

In order to make the cap room necessary to sign Smith, the C's would need to amnesty Pierce, clear KG's contract (possibly through retirement), and then also move the contracts of either Bass or Terry+Crawford.  The chances of that happening are, again, very slim.  A S&T would be equally as complicated.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: cavman on April 16, 2013, 02:15:53 PM
I fail to see why anyone would want to trade for Josh Smith. He does not impress me as a player. He reminds me too much of Employee #8- talented but infinitely frustrating.

Green may be inconsistent, but he's not taking tons of stupid shots that hurt his team.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Evantime34 on April 16, 2013, 02:20:11 PM
They seem like they are different players. Green is more of a scoring 3. Smith is more of an athletic, shot blocking, rebounding four.

I think if we had both we could have the makings of a solid team. (assuming KG and Pierce retire/get traded)

I think it could potentially be a devastating duo, especially when you add in Rondo's game-managing abilities.  The likely-hood of acquiring Smith and keeping Green is slim, though.

I just don't see any trade Atlanta would have interest in that doesn't involve Green.  Signing him as a FA would also be difficult.

In order to make the cap room necessary to sign Smith, the C's would need to amnesty Pierce, clear KG's contract (possibly through retirement), and then also move the contracts of either Bass or Terry+Crawford.  The chances of that happening are, again, very slim.  A S&T would be equally as complicated.
If Pierce retires (as well as KG) before he is due his guaranteed $5 I believe we would have enough to sign Smith to a large contract.

I agree there is probably no way for a sign and trade to happen.

Here is a question, do you think the length of Smith and Green would allow Sully to play the five spot (giving us a shot blocking presence at the 4 to help cover up a lack of one at the five)
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: nickagneta on April 16, 2013, 02:20:47 PM
Not the biggest fan of Green or Smith. But Smith does provide more things this team needs more than Green does and is a better overall player.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Atzar on April 16, 2013, 02:26:17 PM
Not really interested in trading Green for Smith.  Relative to their contracts, Green is the better value.  There's also an argument to be made that Green could be much more consistent next year, when he's two years removed from surgery and doesn't have the occasional day where he just has no energy.  Even now, you can see days where he just doesn't have it.

I do like Smith, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to part with the pieces it would take to get him.  I think he'd fit very well with our current team.  Trading for him would probably mean trading some of the pieces that I'd like to play in conjunction with him.  Garnett and Green are both in that list, and I think one or the other would have to move in this trade.   
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: KGs Knee on April 16, 2013, 02:48:39 PM
They seem like they are different players. Green is more of a scoring 3. Smith is more of an athletic, shot blocking, rebounding four.

I think if we had both we could have the makings of a solid team. (assuming KG and Pierce retire/get traded)

I think it could potentially be a devastating duo, especially when you add in Rondo's game-managing abilities.  The likely-hood of acquiring Smith and keeping Green is slim, though.

I just don't see any trade Atlanta would have interest in that doesn't involve Green.  Signing him as a FA would also be difficult.

In order to make the cap room necessary to sign Smith, the C's would need to amnesty Pierce, clear KG's contract (possibly through retirement), and then also move the contracts of either Bass or Terry+Crawford.  The chances of that happening are, again, very slim.  A S&T would be equally as complicated.
If Pierce retires (as well as KG) before he is due his guaranteed $5 I believe we would have enough to sign Smith to a large contract.

I agree there is probably no way for a sign and trade to happen.

Here is a question, do you think the length of Smith and Green would allow Sully to play the five spot (giving us a shot blocking presence at the 4 to help cover up a lack of one at the five)

Checking the math a little closer, if Pierce/KG we're cleared from the books, we'd have approx $47m in committed salaries (including 1st rd pick) for 10 roster spots.  Depending on where the actual soft-cap falls (guessing $60m), we'd be pressed to offer him his current contract.  So, I guess we could offer him up to $15m if we simply moved Crawford for a pick.  If the cap goes up, it makes it easier.

I'm just not even remotely convinced KG is retiring, nor Pierce being amnestied.

As to your last point, no I do not think Sully should be playing center.  He'd be one heck of a bench big, though.  I'd let him build his value, and possibly seek to move him for a big, defensive center type (not necessarily elite, but above-average).
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Bankshot on April 16, 2013, 03:06:03 PM
Eh, I wouldn't trade Green for Smith.  However, I would like to have both of them on the Celtics.  How can we sign Smith and keep Green?
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: indeedproceed on April 16, 2013, 03:13:17 PM
I'm a big Josh Smith guy but I would rather have Jeff Green. Green makes less bone headed plays, takes less bad shots and is going to make a lot less money.
I'd rather have the impact shot blocking, rebounding, and other non-scoring contributions.

But giving him the max, blah.

Yeah, on paper, Smith looks like an obvious 'yes'.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=smithjo03&y1=2013&p2=greenje02&y2=2013

Per-minute, identical scoring, identical FG%, identical FTA's with JG having an edge in 3pt% and FT%, and Josh Smith being better literally everywhere else.

  There's a pretty big difference (12% or so) in TS%, and the turnovers favor Jeff as well. Smith might get the edge, but it's pretty slight.

I disagree, its actually a 6% difference in TS%, and turnovers only favor Green by 2% on turnover ratio (which is very slight when you figure in that Smith also has a higher Usage rate, assist ratio, and 3 more FGA's per 36 minutes).

But Smith has advantages in all the other categories, despite a worse supporting cast, despite teams more aggressively game-planning for him (and despite them being much more familiar with him as a centerpiece of the offense so having literally years to prepare for him).

Plus, Smith has a much bigger impact than Green on defense. Just a better player, and Smith is only 3/4 a year older than Green.

Quote
  Smallish sample size, but if Green keeps playing at his post all-star level next season which player would you say is more likely to be a 2014 all-star? I'd actually go with Green.

This is a tossup for me. All-star voters like sexy stories and points. If the C's are in playoff contention again, and Green is averaging between 18 and 20 ppg with the same FG/3pt numbers, while Smith is still on the Hawks, and they're still middle of the pack, I could see Green getting the nod.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Who on April 16, 2013, 03:16:34 PM
Eh, I wouldn't trade Green for Smith.  However, I would like to have both of them on the Celtics.  How can we sign Smith and keep Green?
Sullinger and two first round picks might get it done.

Matching salaries looks a tough nut to crack. Jeez, I think you might have to give up Pierce or KG in order to send an expiring contract back Atlanta's way. The lack of an expiring contract here is a real draw back.

I imagine Atlanta would rather just keep their cap space than take Bass' + C.Lee's contracts in order to get Sully and two first rounders. Not sure there is enough incentive there for Atlanta. Sullinger hasn't shown enough yet. Tough sell.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: nickagneta on April 16, 2013, 03:27:03 PM
Actually think Smith ends up in Atlanta. Portland, GSW and some other clubs also seem to have a lot more assets that Atlanta would want to offer for Smith than Boston does
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: jambr380 on April 16, 2013, 03:38:21 PM
I fail to see why anyone would want to trade for Josh Smith. He does not impress me as a player. He reminds me too much of Employee #8- talented but infinitely frustrating.

Green may be inconsistent, but he's not taking tons of stupid shots that hurt his team.


The major difference between the two being that Antoine was a great leader and motivator - kind of the opposite of Josh Smith. Antoine used his emotion to carry his team on his back and will them to victory.

As for Smith, I have said it several times before, but I don't think there is anyway that anybody is going to give him the max. Just because he wants it doesn't mean he is going to get it. He received his current contract based on potential and hasn't done anything to prove he should get more than that same 13 million. But, yes, I would gladly take him on the Celtics, although I, too, would like him to play with Green.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: bobbyv on April 16, 2013, 03:41:43 PM
Eh, I wouldn't trade Green for Smith.  However, I would like to have both of them on the Celtics.  How can we sign Smith and keep Green?
I think KG and Pierce would both have to retire for that to happen
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on April 16, 2013, 03:51:11 PM
Haven't read the entire thread, but with what we've seen from Jeff Green the last few weeks we'd be completely foolish to trade him - even for Josh Smith.

Jeff Green is just now scratching the surface of what he can do.

I'd rather ride this train with Super 8 and see where it goes.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: BballTim on April 16, 2013, 04:01:54 PM
I'm a big Josh Smith guy but I would rather have Jeff Green. Green makes less bone headed plays, takes less bad shots and is going to make a lot less money.
I'd rather have the impact shot blocking, rebounding, and other non-scoring contributions.

But giving him the max, blah.

Yeah, on paper, Smith looks like an obvious 'yes'.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=smithjo03&y1=2013&p2=greenje02&y2=2013

Per-minute, identical scoring, identical FG%, identical FTA's with JG having an edge in 3pt% and FT%, and Josh Smith being better literally everywhere else.

  There's a pretty big difference (12% or so) in TS%, and the turnovers favor Jeff as well. Smith might get the edge, but it's pretty slight.

I disagree, its actually a 6% difference in TS%, and turnovers only favor Green by 2% on turnover ratio (which is very slight when you figure in that Smith also has a higher Usage rate, assist ratio, and 3 more FGA's per 36 minutes).

But Smith has advantages in all the other categories, despite a worse supporting cast, despite teams more aggressively game-planning for him (and despite them being much more familiar with him as a centerpiece of the offense so having literally years to prepare for him).

Plus, Smith has a much bigger impact than Green on defense. Just a better player, and Smith is only 3/4 a year older than Green.

Quote
  Smallish sample size, but if Green keeps playing at his post all-star level next season which player would you say is more likely to be a 2014 all-star? I'd actually go with Green.

This is a tossup for me. All-star voters like sexy stories and points. If the C's are in playoff contention again, and Green is averaging between 18 and 20 ppg with the same FG/3pt numbers, while Smith is still on the Hawks, and they're still middle of the pack, I could see Green getting the nod.

  When I said the TS% difference was 12% I meant that Green's number was 12% higher than Smith's, meaning if they both took the same number of shots Green would end up with 12% more points. That 6% difference is pretty significant btw. It's the difference in scoring efficiency between Rondo and Chris Paul for their careers. Also, the usage% doesn't mitigate the TO%, it exacerbates it. Smith is both using more possessions than Green and turning it over more often per possession used.

  Also, I'm not sure what your "all star" comment was supposed to mean. You talk about all-star voters liking points, but the 18-20 a game you have Green scoring would be pretty close to what you might expect from Smith. Also you talk about the Celts being in playoff contention again while the Hawks are "middle of the pack" again. But the Hawks are generally a 4-5 seed in the playoffs. ??
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: indeedproceed on April 16, 2013, 04:45:18 PM
I'm a big Josh Smith guy but I would rather have Jeff Green. Green makes less bone headed plays, takes less bad shots and is going to make a lot less money.
I'd rather have the impact shot blocking, rebounding, and other non-scoring contributions.

But giving him the max, blah.

Yeah, on paper, Smith looks like an obvious 'yes'.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=smithjo03&y1=2013&p2=greenje02&y2=2013

Per-minute, identical scoring, identical FG%, identical FTA's with JG having an edge in 3pt% and FT%, and Josh Smith being better literally everywhere else.

  There's a pretty big difference (12% or so) in TS%, and the turnovers favor Jeff as well. Smith might get the edge, but it's pretty slight.

I disagree, its actually a 6% difference in TS%, and turnovers only favor Green by 2% on turnover ratio (which is very slight when you figure in that Smith also has a higher Usage rate, assist ratio, and 3 more FGA's per 36 minutes).

But Smith has advantages in all the other categories, despite a worse supporting cast, despite teams more aggressively game-planning for him (and despite them being much more familiar with him as a centerpiece of the offense so having literally years to prepare for him).

Plus, Smith has a much bigger impact than Green on defense. Just a better player, and Smith is only 3/4 a year older than Green.

Quote
  Smallish sample size, but if Green keeps playing at his post all-star level next season which player would you say is more likely to be a 2014 all-star? I'd actually go with Green.

This is a tossup for me. All-star voters like sexy stories and points. If the C's are in playoff contention again, and Green is averaging between 18 and 20 ppg with the same FG/3pt numbers, while Smith is still on the Hawks, and they're still middle of the pack, I could see Green getting the nod.

  When I said the TS% difference was 12% I meant that Green's number was 12% higher than Smith's, meaning if they both took the same number of shots Green would end up with 12% more points. That 6% difference is pretty significant btw. It's the difference in scoring efficiency between Rondo and Chris Paul for their careers.

lol. So you took JG's 56%, subtracted Smith's 50%, and divided that remaining 6% by 50% to get 12%?

You couldn't just say, "Green's TS% is higher by 6%"?

I didn't say it wasn't significant, JG shooting 40% from 3 is huge. Its game-changer for him huge. But his eFG% is also less than 2% higher, the operative difference being that Josh Smith's FT shooting this season is well below his career average. That's why Green's TS% is 6% higher, when the FG% are identical, even with Green's higher 3pt %.

And let's not talk about Rondo and Chris Paul.

Quote
Also, the usage% doesn't mitigate the TO%, it exacerbates it. Smith is both using more possessions than Green and turning it over more often per possession used.

Turnover ratio is not one of those numbers that a 2% difference means anything significant though. Those numbers do exist, but its not turnover ratio.

And in this instance, if Jeff Green had the same usage rate as Josh Smith, their turnovers per 36 minutes would be so close its negligible.

EDIT: I should say I'm oversimplifying 'Usage' here. Usage (Tim knows this already, but for those who don't) doesn't actually measure the % of time a player has the ball in their hands, it measures how often a player commits a possession-ending event, which is either a field goal attempt, turnover, or assist. The implication is that the more often a player commits these events, the more often they have the ball in their hands during decision-making moments, so a higher-usage is roughly equivalent with more time spent with the ball in their hands.

Quote
  Also, I'm not sure what your "all star" comment was supposed to mean. You talk about all-star voters liking points, but the 18-20 a game you have Green scoring would be pretty close to what you might expect from Smith. Also you talk about the Celts being in playoff contention again while the Hawks are "middle of the pack" again. But the Hawks are generally a 4-5 seed in the playoffs. ??

Right. I'm saying, Josh Smith has been doing this for years, 2nd team all-defense effort on his resume, career year last year, etc..he's never gotten the nod, so unless he goes to a new team and changes the perception of him, I could see how Josh Smith could continue to put in very good production and continue to miss out on all-star games.

Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: LooseCannon on April 16, 2013, 05:03:01 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: CelticConcourse on April 16, 2013, 05:07:45 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

I like Jeff because he still leads the league in awesomeness by a considerable margin. Josh Smith isn't even close, in my favorite stat.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: KGs Knee on April 16, 2013, 05:15:03 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

I like Jeff because he still leads the league in awesomeness by a considerable margin. Josh Smith isn't even close, in my favorite stat.

Lol..at least you're honest about it  ;D
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: LooseCannon on April 16, 2013, 05:16:51 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

I like Jeff because he still leads the league in awesomeness by a considerable margin. Josh Smith isn't even close, in my favorite stat.

Is there a top ten ranking for that stat I can peruse?
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Atzar on April 16, 2013, 05:21:20 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

That's pretty surprising to me.  I think the main advantage that WS has over PER is its improved emphasis on defense, but I consider Smith to be a better defender than Green.  I might have to dig into that a little bit later.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Fafnir on April 16, 2013, 05:22:42 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.
Negative offensive win shares. For their career their offensive win shares are pretty similar.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: indeedproceed on April 16, 2013, 05:23:12 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Only gives him negative win shares offensively. Anyway you cut it, it was an off-year for Smith in general.

Quote
Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

Wrong, I like WS better, but I like Smith between the two players. Offensively he's had a bit of a rough year, especially with his FT shooting and 3pt shooting (as in he should take less 3's), but defensively he remained solid. It leads me to believe this is a role issue, not a performance issue.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: indeedproceed on April 16, 2013, 05:24:29 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

That's pretty surprising to me.  I think the main advantage that WS has over PER is its improved emphasis on defense, but I consider Smith to be a better defender than Green.  I might have to dig into that a little bit later.

Winshares for the year:
Smith: 4.3
Green: 4.7

DefWS:
Smith: 4.5
Green: 2.8

Your prior assumptions are correct.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Atzar on April 16, 2013, 05:29:28 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

That's pretty surprising to me.  I think the main advantage that WS has over PER is its improved emphasis on defense, but I consider Smith to be a better defender than Green.  I might have to dig into that a little bit later.

Winshares for the year:
Smith: 4.3
Green: 4.7

DefWS:
Smith: 4.5
Green: 2.8

Your prior assumptions are correct.

That makes sense.  Thanks for the clarification. 
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: nickagneta on April 16, 2013, 05:35:13 PM
Neither player is a number one scoring option, both are probably best suited with a pass first PG that can set them up or defer to the number 1 option.

Where I think the biggest difference between the two is that Smith is demonstrably better at rebounding, defense, and having a proven ability to play well in the playoffs. I hate to say it but those areas, to me, have always been effort and toughness stats.

I think Smith has at times "Antoine Walker" disease with his shot selection but his defense, rebounding and ability to show when it matters most makes him preferable to have on this team than Green.

But I honestly, don't want either player on this team. Trade Green but for someone better than Smith.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: LooseCannon on April 16, 2013, 05:36:37 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.
Negative offensive win shares. For their career their offensive win shares are pretty similar.

Yeah, that's that I meant to type, obviously.  One of the criticisms of PER is that it rewards players who jack up a lot of bad shots.  Jeff Green is never going to be your #1 scorer type because he is never going to willingly take a lot of bad shots.  Paul Pierce is a guy who would if he saw no better way, but has the self control to avoid doing so on a regular basis when there are better ways to play. 

I think putting Josh Smith on a team where he is the highest-paid player would be giving him the green light to shoot whenever he feels like it, so I expect him to score more points at a less efficient rate.  If you think his defense is good enough to compensate for that, then go ahead and give him a max contract, but I have my doubts.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: KGs Knee on April 16, 2013, 05:40:02 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

That's pretty surprising to me.  I think the main advantage that WS has over PER is its improved emphasis on defense, but I consider Smith to be a better defender than Green.  I might have to dig into that a little bit later.

Winshares for the year:
Smith: 4.3
Green: 4.7

DefWS:
Smith: 4.5
Green: 2.8

Your prior assumptions are correct.

This confirms my belief Smith is the superior player.  His defensive WS is noticeably better.  Put Smith in an offensive role that suits him, and his offensive numbers would likely return to his career averages, or possibly even improve.

Not sure I'd trade Green for Smith, when factoring in the money difference, though.  Didn't feel that way earlier in the year.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: LooseCannon on April 16, 2013, 05:46:48 PM
If the Celtics acquire Josh Smith, can we look forward to Doc Rivers playing him as the center in a smallball lineup?  If you find that idea abhorrent, do you count that as a reason against trying to acquire Smith?
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 16, 2013, 05:51:39 PM
If the Celtics acquire Josh Smith, can we look forward to Doc Rivers playing him as the center in a smallball lineup?  If you find that idea abhorrent, do you count that as a reason against trying to acquire Smith?

I was hesitant to say it , but  now that you have brought it up , this is the main reason I don't want Josh Smith .  I'm scared Doc will do exactly this , huge money wasted and still not have a true center....

If the Celtics get a really good BIG , and want Smith at the 4 then thats cool.   

No more small ball .
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Who on April 16, 2013, 06:17:01 PM
If the Celtics acquire Josh Smith, can we look forward to Doc Rivers playing him as the center in a smallball lineup?  If you find that idea abhorrent, do you count that as a reason against trying to acquire Smith?

Atlanta used Josh Smith as the center position quite a bit last season while Al Horford was out and a small bit this season too. It's not an ideal option but it is workable.

I expect Doc would be willing to use Smith there at times if the Celtics had a lack of quality alternatives at the five spot. I don't think Doc would do so otherwise.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: BballTim on April 16, 2013, 06:26:35 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Only gives him negative win shares offensively. Anyway you cut it, it was an off-year for Smith in general.

Quote
Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

Wrong, I like WS better, but I like Smith between the two players. Offensively he's had a bit of a rough year, especially with his FT shooting and 3pt shooting (as in he should take less 3's), but defensively he remained solid. It leads me to believe this is a role issue, not a performance issue.

   In terms of scoring efficiency last year was rougher than this year. I think the issue is his shot selection, and I'd say that's at least as much on him as his being asked to do things he shouldn't.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: nickagneta on April 16, 2013, 06:32:52 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Only gives him negative win shares offensively. Anyway you cut it, it was an off-year for Smith in general.

Quote
Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

Wrong, I like WS better, but I like Smith between the two players. Offensively he's had a bit of a rough year, especially with his FT shooting and 3pt shooting (as in he should take less 3's), but defensively he remained solid. It leads me to believe this is a role issue, not a performance issue.

   In terms of scoring efficiency last year was rougher than this year. I think the issue is his shot selection, and I'd say that's at least as much on him as his being asked to do things he shouldn't.
I think its all role. He misses Joe Johnson, or anyone else(Crawford, Bibby), being THAT guy on offense. He just isn't a capable number one scoring option and neither is Horford. Put Smith in a different role and his offense will bounce back or maybe even get better.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: SparzWizard on April 16, 2013, 06:33:15 PM
Can both be in Celtic green next year?  ;D
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: BballTim on April 16, 2013, 06:43:21 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Only gives him negative win shares offensively. Anyway you cut it, it was an off-year for Smith in general.

Quote
Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

Wrong, I like WS better, but I like Smith between the two players. Offensively he's had a bit of a rough year, especially with his FT shooting and 3pt shooting (as in he should take less 3's), but defensively he remained solid. It leads me to believe this is a role issue, not a performance issue.

   In terms of scoring efficiency last year was rougher than this year. I think the issue is his shot selection, and I'd say that's at least as much on him as his being asked to do things he shouldn't.
I think its all role. He misses Joe Johnson, or anyone else(Crawford, Bibby), being THAT guy on offense. He just isn't a capable number one scoring option and neither is Horford. Put Smith in a different role and his offense will bounce back or maybe even get better.

  Johnson was there last year, Smith was taking more shots than Joe. I don't think he wants that lesser role.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: nickagneta on April 16, 2013, 07:10:13 PM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Only gives him negative win shares offensively. Anyway you cut it, it was an off-year for Smith in general.

Quote
Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

Wrong, I like WS better, but I like Smith between the two players. Offensively he's had a bit of a rough year, especially with his FT shooting and 3pt shooting (as in he should take less 3's), but defensively he remained solid. It leads me to believe this is a role issue, not a performance issue.

   In terms of scoring efficiency last year was rougher than this year. I think the issue is his shot selection, and I'd say that's at least as much on him as his being asked to do things he shouldn't.
I think its all role. He misses Joe Johnson, or anyone else(Crawford, Bibby), being THAT guy on offense. He just isn't a capable number one scoring option and neither is Horford. Put Smith in a different role and his offense will bounce back or maybe even get better.

  Johnson was there last year, Smith was taking more shots than Joe. I don't think he wants that lesser role.
Also a very large problem and another reason I wouldn't trade Jeff Green for him and why I would never want him wearing the Green.

Is it fair to call him "dumb" in a basketball sense? I know its a word a used a lot when I watched Antoine Walker and a word I used a lot when watching Smith in a bunch of Hawk playoff games. I also happen to find a lot of other similarities in their games and personality on the court sometimes.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: LooseCannon on April 16, 2013, 07:18:29 PM
If the Celtics acquire Josh Smith, can we look forward to Doc Rivers playing him as the center in a smallball lineup?  If you find that idea abhorrent, do you count that as a reason against trying to acquire Smith?

Atlanta used Josh Smith as the center position quite a bit last season while Al Horford was out and a small bit this season too. It's not an ideal option but it is workable.

I expect Doc would be willing to use Smith there at times if the Celtics had a lack of quality alternatives at the five spot. I don't think Doc would do so otherwise.

Would it bother you if Doc went with Smith as center in the smallball unit if he had a Darko-level alternative that he refused to even experiment with?
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: LooseCannon on April 16, 2013, 07:22:04 PM
Is it fair to call him "dumb" in a basketball sense? I know its a word a used a lot when I watched Antoine Walker and a word I used a lot when watching Smith in a bunch of Hawk playoff games. I also happen to find a lot of other similarities in their games and personality on the court sometimes.

I'd say Smith and Walker both seem like intelligent players who lack...let's call it wisdom.  Maybe also common sense.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Who on April 16, 2013, 07:54:05 PM
If the Celtics acquire Josh Smith, can we look forward to Doc Rivers playing him as the center in a smallball lineup?  If you find that idea abhorrent, do you count that as a reason against trying to acquire Smith?

Atlanta used Josh Smith as the center position quite a bit last season while Al Horford was out and a small bit this season too. It's not an ideal option but it is workable.

I expect Doc would be willing to use Smith there at times if the Celtics had a lack of quality alternatives at the five spot. I don't think Doc would do so otherwise.

Would it bother you if Doc went with Smith as center in the smallball unit if he had a Darko-level alternative that he refused to even experiment with?

Depends on the situation. On the other players in Boston's own lineups and their opponents lineup. In deciding which option I would prefer - Josh Smith at center or at forward alongside a Darko-like player.

I guess Doc refusing to experiment with means regardless of situation so yes that bother me but I am not concerned about Doc doing that.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Sketch5 on April 16, 2013, 08:11:37 PM
It depends on really who else is on the team. Neither one is THE guy, but an other piece.

I think Green would be closer to be THE guy then Smith. Smith is better at defending and rebounding, but Greens offensive game if get can get consistent(still thing he's still recovering mentally) is better, not stat wise, but what he can do.

He can post well, hes a better ball handler. Smith is a good passer, maybe a little better than Green. Green is a better shooter at any spot on the floor.

Plus, how many clutch shots has Green made this season in the fourth. Not just game winners, but shots that keeps them in, or gets them the lead? And some of those are 3  point shots. Thats some thing Smith can't do very well.

So if you can put some one on the floor that can defend the paint and rebound with Green, I say trading him for Smith would be a bad move because you lose your diversity on the offensive end, and the ability to spread the floor.

I think I'd need to know who would be the SF, (and can't say PP since he's close to retiring) that you would have play with Smith.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: nickagneta on April 16, 2013, 08:18:21 PM
Is it fair to call him "dumb" in a basketball sense? I know its a word a used a lot when I watched Antoine Walker and a word I used a lot when watching Smith in a bunch of Hawk playoff games. I also happen to find a lot of other similarities in their games and personality on the court sometimes.

I'd say Smith and Walker both seem like intelligent players who lack...let's call it wisdom.  Maybe also common sense.
I get this. I happen to think it was a lack of good coaching at an impressionable age(teens to early 20's). I think it causes a lot of problems like this in NBA players.

Unbelievable talent, fairly intelligent men, tremendous athleticism, just missing that.....something.....and wisdom makes sense. They weren't taught discipline and fundamentals at an impressionable enough age and then they became such experts in the game, they never learned any more.

Or their egos just got so massive that it never allowed them to see how flawed they are or were.

Or both.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: CelticConcourse on April 16, 2013, 10:03:59 PM
Is it fair to call him "dumb" in a basketball sense? I know its a word a used a lot when I watched Antoine Walker and a word I used a lot when watching Smith in a bunch of Hawk playoff games. I also happen to find a lot of other similarities in their games and personality on the court sometimes.

I'd say Smith and Walker both seem like intelligent players who lack...let's call it wisdom.  Maybe also common sense.
I get this. I happen to think it was a lack of good coaching at an impressionable age(teens to early 20's). I think it causes a lot of problems like this in NBA players.

Unbelievable talent, fairly intelligent men, tremendous athleticism, just missing that.....something.....and wisdom makes sense. They weren't taught discipline and fundamentals at an impressionable enough age and then they became such experts in the game, they never learned any more.

Or their egos just got so massive that it never allowed them to see how flawed they are or were.

Or both.

They should learn to use their egos to their advantage, like Jordan Godford
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Snakehead on April 17, 2013, 08:28:55 AM
PER rates Josh Smith higher.  WS rates Jeff Green higher (and, in fact, gives Josh Smith negative win shares).

Only gives him negative win shares offensively. Anyway you cut it, it was an off-year for Smith in general.

Quote
Who you like better as a player is probably related to which stat, PER or win shares, you like better.

Wrong, I like WS better, but I like Smith between the two players. Offensively he's had a bit of a rough year, especially with his FT shooting and 3pt shooting (as in he should take less 3's), but defensively he remained solid. It leads me to believe this is a role issue, not a performance issue.

   In terms of scoring efficiency last year was rougher than this year. I think the issue is his shot selection, and I'd say that's at least as much on him as his being asked to do things he shouldn't.

I totally agree with this, it's part of the reason I'm not down on him.

If you think about the game against us, he was being asked to play a playmaker role against us at the end of the game.  That is all sorts of wrong.  Not that he can't make a nice pass or anything.

With us, in the pick and roll with Rondo, someone he trusts, that is a much better role for him where he is taking better shots.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Celtics18 on April 17, 2013, 10:13:47 AM
I've traditionally been fairly high on Josh Smith, but at this point I think I'd rather stick with Green.  I say this regardless of contract situation, purely looking at them as basketball players. 

As far as being an elite athlete (running, jumping, moving quickly), I think Jeff at least equals Smith in that category.

Smith seems a little more well rounded while Jeff seems smarter.  Smith is known for being an excellent defender, but I have really enjoyed Jeff's D of late.  I think that he will be known as a premier multi-position defender before too long.

Offensively, I think Green is a much better fit.  He's smoother, smarter with his shot selection, a better finisher, and a better jump shooter.

So, given the choice, I'll stick with Jeff Green at this point.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Fred Roberts on April 17, 2013, 10:21:19 AM
I think in the 2013/14 NBA season, Jeff Green will at least be the equal of Josh Smith in terms of production, talent, etc. I think he will be more efficient and effective possibly.

He will be 60% of the price too. I like Jeff's game, and think he'll age better than Josh Smith in the next 4 years because he relies a bit less on athleticism and has a better shot.

Jeff Green 100% is my take.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Moranis on April 17, 2013, 10:35:11 AM
When looking at price I think you have to go with Green, but Smith is a better player than Green.  He is a better defender, much better rebounder, much better passer, and frankly they shoot about the same (Green a bit better from deep, Smith better from close - the line is a different situation though).  I think if Smith had a clear #1 scorer on his team, like a Pierce, he would be more efficient as well.

If price didn't matter you go with Smith, if price does matter and Smith gets near that max level, then you go with Green. 
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Monkhouse on April 17, 2013, 10:46:19 AM
I'm a firm believer in Josh Smith.

Everyone seems to hate him, but disregard the fact Atlanta Hawks has always been a mid level team. They had the players and depth at one point to push for a championship, but never were able to do so.

I, for one, believe if Josh Smith/Jeff were a SF/PF combo, it would make for one heck of a interesting set up. Jeff has excelled in defending most dominant offensive players, Carmelo, Durant, Lebron, etc. Knowing Doc who would love to have a small ball, that is at least effective, Josh Smith would be swatting, and getting alot of rebounds, while at the same time being able to box out.

To me the complete player would be Josh Smith. Jeff has shown he can step it up, but at times remains very inconsistent, and still needs to learn to be more aggressive. Josh isn't afraid to be aggressive, and will drive to the paint for that jam even if it means taking a hit to do so. With playoff experience, and under a system where he's bound to succeed, Josh Smith would thrive.

Not to mention he wants to play with Rondo, and I believe his whole spiel of a max contract was so Hawks would refuse to re-sign him.

I have no doubt if he signed with Boston, that he would take a significant pay cut. I've actually seen him and Rondo play a few times in Oak Hill, and I was floored. You have no idea how amazing it is to see the two of them with such chemistry. If Josh was to join, I can easily expect him to perform better since he'll be getting better looks, and open shots.

As for Jared if he is still here, I would love to put him as a backup PF. Jared certainly deserves to be starting, but the last thing I want for him is to be injured again. If Josh Smith doesn't mind rotating minutes between him and Jared, then by all means I hope he comes here in the off season.

People tend to forget Josh Smith, at one point was the youngest player to ever record 1,000 blocks. With Josh Smith, and another defensive big clogging up the paint, chances of anyone trying to score on us would seem very dismal.

He also praised Beantown, and loves the city, what else could you ask for?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPrYKGegnqY


Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: BostonNative on April 17, 2013, 11:05:26 AM
I'M A huge j smooth fan and I was one of the people saying trade green for him, but we cant afford to do that. Green is our number 1 scorer now and smith is not putting up any 30 point games no matter what team he will be on. Green at this point in time is NEEDED for any type of celtic success. I doubt we getting anywhere any time soon with this team, but getting rid of green is not the answer.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Who on April 17, 2013, 11:46:55 AM
People tend to forget Josh Smith, at one point was the youngest player to ever record 1,000 blocks. With Josh Smith, and another defensive big clogging up the paint, chances of anyone trying to score on us would seem very dismal.

I would love to see Josh Smith alongside a shot-blocking center. Those two weapons together defensively would be a sight to see. Intimidating.
Title: Re: Do You Think Jeff Green Can Still Be Better,.. Or Just Trade Him For Josh Smith?
Post by: Monkhouse on April 17, 2013, 11:51:55 AM
I'M A huge j smooth fan and I was one of the people saying trade green for him, but we cant afford to do that. Green is our number 1 scorer now and smith is not putting up any 30 point games no matter what team he will be on. Green at this point in time is NEEDED for any type of celtic success. I doubt we getting anywhere any time soon with this team, but getting rid of green is not the answer.

Sure about that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E5CWPzxKw8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wllsUJfGfOU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-F4wm6-Kwo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bfHCd-VFts

Like I said the system for Josh Smith is flawed. He's supposed to be the next play maker behind Teague, and expected of so much... Josh Smith has good handles, and is good at passing the ball for a big man. I personally think Horford is the better choice, but Josh Smith is the more complete player. Josh Smith plays in a system where he isn't destined to succeed.

A big is always what we needed this year, and the lack of one has shown our true deficiencies on court.

We don't need to get rid of Green. The reason I think J-Smoove, and Jeff Green would work well as a duo.

I believe if J-Smoove came to Beantown, that he would as I repeat, take a severe pay cut. J-Smoove has always expressed interest in Celtics, and said multiple times he wished he was playing with his homeboi Rondo.

People tend to forget Josh Smith, at one point was the youngest player to ever record 1,000 blocks. With Josh Smith, and another defensive big clogging up the paint, chances of anyone trying to score on us would seem very dismal.

I would love to see Josh Smith alongside a shot-blocking center. Those two weapons together defensively would be a sight to see. Intimidating.

I agree. If we could just get someone like KG, with potential, then I see a bright future for us. We just need a defensive big, like Kendrick Perkins.
PG- Rondo
SG- Avery Bradley
SF- Jeff Green
PF- Josh Smith
C- Kendrick Perkins

I don't know about you, but thats one hell of a defensive team. Not to mention Jeff Green can spot up the 3, Josh Smith/Perkins will box out for the rebound. Bradley will trouble the opposing SG, with Rondo and AB being the back court pit bulls, and Lee waiting on the sideline to join in.