Celtics Blog Forums

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: eugen on February 13, 2013, 10:27:58 AM

Title: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: eugen on February 13, 2013, 10:27:58 AM
Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn

CSN New England | Feb 13

The Celtics success without Rajon Rondo has been pretty obvious so far. But will it last into next season when Rondo returns? Will the C's work out a way to play better with him, or will he
Gary Tanguay and Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe discuss.

"My question is, is he sitting and watching and taking notes and reevaluating himself?" Ryan wondered. "We now can see, and didn't I sit here and tell you he was the selfish assist guy? He holds the ball for too long in order to get the assists, passes up shots all which is true in my judgment. Ok, next year does he change? Or does he say, 'I'm Rajon Rondo. I was going to start in the All-Star game. I'm the best point guard in the NBA.' If he comes back with that attitude, next year is going to be a big mess. If he comes back with the appropriate team religion, they'll benefit greatly, but I'm not thinking that's going to happen."
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Fred Roberts on February 13, 2013, 10:35:41 AM
I've also heard rumors that Rondo is a little too stat driven. . .stopping by the scorers table, asking "how many I got?" during games.

Hopefully, he will lose that Wilt Chamberlain-esque habit if it's true and get back to being focused on Ubuntu and how to be a selfless winner. 
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: rondohondo on February 13, 2013, 10:38:03 AM
bob ryan has a really red face and nose, that's all I'm going to say....
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: kozlodoev on February 13, 2013, 10:39:30 AM
The all-bold posts are getting old.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Kane3387 on February 13, 2013, 10:45:27 AM
This isn't new. All Players know their stats. They see how much ESPN loves them and how that leads to more exposure, more acclaim, more money, etc.

If Rondo doesn't go after and attain assists records and triple doubles then does ESPN really talk about how great he is? If ESPN doesn't talk about his greatness is he that popular nation wide with fans? And does he get voted in to start the ALL-Star Game?

Look at Kobe. He has a couple games where he looks to get guys more involved and then the media makes a HUGE deal about it. Then you see in games where he is passing up layups and shots to get assists.

Players love hearing how great they are and will go out of the way to maintain notoriety.

I don't know if it's bad as long as you're winning. If we are winning with Rondo then who cares?
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: D Dub on February 13, 2013, 10:47:14 AM
Better question might be, will Celtic fans learn to stop kicking their best player while he's down?
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: scaryjerry on February 13, 2013, 10:50:47 AM
Don't care...his opinion on rondo means little more than the local alcoholics.

Rondo will adjust because he wants to win...if you ask me the franchise created the "this is now rondos team" monster

There's also 3 years of evidence of proving it was the right idea versus 7 games...Ryan is simply being a prisoner of the moment
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: scaryjerry on February 13, 2013, 10:57:10 AM
I've also heard rumors that Rondo is a little too stat driven. . .stopping by the scorers table, asking "how many I got?" during games.

Hopefully, he will lose that Wilt Chamberlain-esque habit if it's true and get back to being focused on Ubuntu and how to be a selfless winner.


Yawn....this is naive and asinine...you think Michael Jordan didn't do that...or LeBron doesn't? He's very aware and conscious of his current streak right now! Don't let him fool you

That said I've never heard what you're claiming about rondo, but I believe he was aware like most players
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on February 13, 2013, 11:12:08 AM
Better question might be, will Celtic fans learn to stop kicking their best player while he's down?

They're driving him out of town when he's taking over games, he's too easy of a target right now.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: PhoSita on February 13, 2013, 11:14:35 AM
Two Boston sportswriters with whom it's generally smart not to disagree when it comes to the Celtics:

Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullen.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: rondohondo on February 13, 2013, 11:18:50 AM
Two Boston sportswriters with whom it's generally smart not to disagree when it comes to the Celtics:

Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullen.

Jackie mac said a few days ago on Comcast that Rondo gets it now. She talked to people in the c's organization and they said Rondo wants to fit in better after seeing the little win streak .

So do you believe Ryan who is just stating his opinion , or Jackie Mac who actually talked to people in the organization ?
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: KGs Knee on February 13, 2013, 11:20:26 AM
Two Boston sportswriters with whom it's generally smart not to disagree when it comes to the Celtics:

Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullen.
Bob Ryan is overrated, never really liked him.

Jackie Mac is the only Boston writer I lend any credence to.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: DeeMeds on February 13, 2013, 11:21:54 AM
I've also heard rumors that Rondo is a little too stat driven. . .stopping by the scorers table, asking "how many I got?" during games.

Hopefully, he will lose that Wilt Chamberlain-esque habit if it's true and get back to being focused on Ubuntu and how to be a selfless winner.

I'm hoping he can learn that his stats are written on the jumbotron...
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: KGs Knee on February 13, 2013, 11:22:04 AM
Don't care...his opinion on rondo means little more than the local alcoholics.

Yeah, opinions are like buttholes.  Everyone has one, some just stink more than others.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: PhoSita on February 13, 2013, 11:23:05 AM
Two Boston sportswriters with whom it's generally smart not to disagree when it comes to the Celtics:

Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullen.

Jackie mac said a few days ago on Comcast that Rondo gets it now. She talked to people in the c's organization and they said Rondo wants to fit in better after seeing the little win streak .

So do you believe Ryan who is just stating his opinion , or Jackie Mac who actually talked to people in the organization ?

I believe that Jackie talked to people in the organization and that those people believe that Rondo has changed.

And I believe that Bob Ryan is sincere when he expresses his doubts.  And I think his opinion on such things is worth listening to.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: pearljammer10 on February 13, 2013, 11:25:57 AM
Two Boston sportswriters with whom it's generally smart not to disagree when it comes to the Celtics:

Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullen.

Jackie mac said a few days ago on Comcast that Rondo gets it now. She talked to people in the c's organization and they said Rondo wants to fit in better after seeing the little win streak .

So do you believe Ryan who is just stating his opinion , or Jackie Mac who actually talked to people in the organization ?

Or is Bob Ryan just running with what Jackie has reported.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: scaryjerry on February 13, 2013, 11:34:01 AM
Two Boston sportswriters with whom it's generally smart not to disagree when it comes to the Celtics:

Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullen.

Agreed....when it comes to the history of the 80s Celtics...their opinions now don't carry much weight over anyone else's at all to be quite honest


Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on February 13, 2013, 11:35:05 AM
The all-bold posts are getting old.

is someone forcing you to read those???
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 13, 2013, 11:49:11 AM
We'll worry about that next year. Right now, I'm more concerned about what's going on with this current celtics team.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 13, 2013, 11:53:54 AM
I don't think I've agreed with much of what Bob Ryan has had to say for quite some years now.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Levis107 on February 13, 2013, 11:55:09 AM
None of these comments in here matter because Bob Ryan has been around the NBA and knows more about basketball than any of us here will in our lifetime.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: boscel33 on February 13, 2013, 12:00:03 PM
Two Boston sportswriters with whom it's generally smart not to disagree when it comes to the Celtics:

Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullen.
Bob Ryan is overrated, never really liked him.

Jackie Mac is the only Boston writer I lend any credence to.

While I've never been a Ryan fan, he knows the C's as does Jackie Mac.  If you want to know what's going on, listen to them.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: scaryjerry on February 13, 2013, 12:05:08 PM
None of these comments in here matter because Bob Ryan has been around the NBA and knows more about basketball than any of us here will in our lifetime.

Sigh...so his personal opinion on what a player may or may not learn from doesn't have anything to do with how long he's been around the league and certainly doesn't mean his personal opinion will be right....at all.

He's lost it, he may have great insight for the cowens and Bird Celtics but anything he spouts at this point is an opinion of a loopy old guy who didn't like the kg trade

Lol
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: kozlodoev on February 13, 2013, 12:07:24 PM
The all-bold posts are getting old.

is someone forcing you to read those???
Missed the memo on Internet etiquette, didn't we?
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: scaryjerry on February 13, 2013, 12:08:09 PM
Two Boston sportswriters with whom it's generally smart not to disagree when it comes to the Celtics:

Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullen.
Bob Ryan is overrated, never really liked him.

Jackie Mac is the only Boston writer I lend any credence to.

While I've never been a Ryan fan, he knows the C's as does Jackie Mac.  If you want to know what's going on, listen to them.

What do they know about the current Celtics that isn't already readily available?

Sure they're great Celtics historians but like when Ryan had the opinion they'd just barely make the playoffs in 2007 after the kg trade...his opinion on rondo means absolutely nothing
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: ssspence on February 13, 2013, 12:12:00 PM
He's right. Rondo needs to grow up. It's discussed year after year, and not much changes. If seeing how much his teammates enjoy playing without him won't, nothing will.

Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 12:13:24 PM
I've also heard rumors that Rondo is a little too stat driven. . .stopping by the scorers table, asking "how many I got?" during games.

  Is the assumption that he doesn't realize that every arena in the league has a scoreboard with those numbers on it?
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 12:15:57 PM
None of these comments in here matter because Bob Ryan has been around the NBA and knows more about basketball than any of us here will in our lifetime.

  He's met more players than any of us probably ever will. If he knows more about basketball than most he does a masterful job of hiding that fact.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: scaryjerry on February 13, 2013, 12:22:51 PM
He's right. Rondo needs to grow up. It's discussed year after year, and not much changes. If seeing how much his teammates enjoy playing without him won't, nothing will.

Grow up how exactly? Never been in trouble off the court, doesn't throw Russell Westbrook like tantrums, or demand trades and quit like Chris Paul or get coaches fired and make them retire like deron Williams.

He's actually pretty poker faced and boring for his age

 A 7 game sample size without him doesn't all of a sudden disprove the last 3 seasons of constant improvement and being one of the league's best point guards and playoff performers, sorry
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: CoachBo on February 13, 2013, 12:26:44 PM
Well, this thread was as predictable as the sun rising in the morning ...
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 12:36:22 PM
Well, this thread was as predictable as the sun rising in the morning ...

  I know, yet another thread bashing Rondo based on someone's baseless claims about knowing what Rondo's thinking. Hardly a rarity.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: ssspence on February 13, 2013, 12:40:18 PM
Well, this thread was as predictable as the sun rising in the morning ...

haha... which one's aren't?
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: kozlodoev on February 13, 2013, 01:08:33 PM
Well, this thread was as predictable as the sun rising in the morning ...

  I know, yet another thread bashing Rondo based on someone's baseless claims about knowing what Rondo's thinking. Hardly a rarity.
Yes, criticizing Rondo based on how he actually plays works so much better -- retorts typically vary between, "You don't know whether that's how he wants to play" and, "Doc made him!"
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: get_banners on February 13, 2013, 01:14:35 PM
Jackie Mac's still got close connections to the team, so I'd believe her vs. Ryan, who has no inside ties to the team and is just an outside observer. Jackie's got a better relationship with Rondo (and other Celtics) than arguably any other big-time sports journalist, so I would treat her as the best source re: Rondo. Not knocking Ryan...but he is purely speculating, which is what passes as sports journalism these days (also, journalism in general).
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 01:33:01 PM
Well, this thread was as predictable as the sun rising in the morning ...

  I know, yet another thread bashing Rondo based on someone's baseless claims about knowing what Rondo's thinking. Hardly a rarity.
Yes, criticizing Rondo based on how he actually plays works so much better -- retorts typically vary between, "You don't know whether that's how he wants to play" and, "Doc made him!"

  Clearly Doc has no input at all on the offense, it's all on Rondo.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: PhoSita on February 13, 2013, 01:35:20 PM
Two Boston sportswriters with whom it's generally smart not to disagree when it comes to the Celtics:

Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullen.

Agreed....when it comes to the history of the 80s Celtics...their opinions now don't carry much weight over anyone else's at all to be quite honest

I disagree strongly.

Jackie is better plugged in to what's going on in the Celtics organization than pretty much anybody.

Bob Ryan still knows what he's talking about.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: scaryjerry on February 13, 2013, 01:40:36 PM
Two Boston sportswriters with whom it's generally smart not to disagree when it comes to the Celtics:

Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullen.

Agreed....when it comes to the history of the 80s Celtics...their opinions now don't carry much weight over anyone else's at all to be quite honest

I disagree strongly.

Jackie is better plugged in to what's going on in the Celtics organization than pretty much anybody.

Bob Ryan still knows what he's talking about.


Jackie is decent...bob ryans personal opinion doesn't mean anything...did you not read when I said he wasn't a fan of the kg trade and thought we'd barely make the playoffs in 2007?
but bob Ryan thought it, must be true!

Epic fail
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: timobusa on February 13, 2013, 01:58:14 PM
Bob Ryan has been a negative nancy for the past 10 years.

In all actuality, No one knows what will happen when Rondo comes back.

Will he come back and play like the team does now?
Or will he revert back to the ball pounding offense?

Who knows?
Either way, I'm excited to see it.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: RJ87 on February 13, 2013, 02:02:08 PM
He's right. Rondo needs to grow up. It's discussed year after year, and not much changes. If seeing how much his teammates enjoy playing without him won't, nothing will.

Grow up how exactly? Never been in trouble off the court, doesn't throw Russell Westbrook like tantrums, or demand trades and quit like Chris Paul or get coaches fired and make them retire like deron Williams.

He's actually pretty poker faced and boring for his age

 A 7 game sample size without him doesn't all of a sudden disprove the last 3 seasons of constant improvement and being one of the league's best point guards and playoff performers, sorry

TP.

Rondo has his moments when his emotions can get the best of him (see: Bump-Gate), but people like to act like he's the only guy in the league who does that. I think Rondo's maturity has come a long way - its clearly something that's a work in progress,  but you can see he's making an effort.

Being a leader doesn't always come naturally,  sometimes it takes work. Paul Pierce, anyone?
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: slamtheking on February 13, 2013, 02:18:48 PM
Two Boston sportswriters with whom it's generally smart not to disagree when it comes to the Celtics:

Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullen.

Jackie mac said a few days ago on Comcast that Rondo gets it now. She talked to people in the c's organization and they said Rondo wants to fit in better after seeing the little win streak .

So do you believe Ryan who is just stating his opinion , or Jackie Mac who actually talked to people in the organization ?

I believe that Jackie talked to people in the organization and that those people believe that Rondo has changed.

And I believe that Bob Ryan is sincere when he expresses his doubts.  And I think his opinion on such things is worth listening to.
so does that mean you're acknowledging JM has a better insight through actual discussion with insiders than BR who's just spouting opinion without doing any research with Rondo or the team? 

Jackie Mac has an excellent reputation for researching a topic and not going off half-cocked (no pun intended) on just her opinion.  I think she's more likely to be right than Ryan whose standards of reporting seem to have slipped in the past few years.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: eugen on February 13, 2013, 02:24:40 PM
The all-bold posts are getting old.

Normally today, people start topics in bold,  in order to show who is the poster of the topic...Grow up man, grow upppp!
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: slamtheking on February 13, 2013, 02:26:54 PM
The all-bold posts are getting old.

Normally today, people start topics in bold,  in order to show who is the poster of the topic...Grow up man, grow upppp!
that's not how it's done here, now or earlier.  besides, if anyone wants to see the poster of the topic, they can just go to the top of the first page -- you know, common sense   ::)
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: eugen on February 13, 2013, 02:49:55 PM

Bob Ryan has been a negative nancy for the past 10 years.


I disagree strongly.
But I see a very awful thing in this forum. Everybody who is being critic about Rondo is going to be attacked in person, without making debate facing facts and arguments.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: scaryjerry on February 13, 2013, 03:26:13 PM

Bob Ryan has been a negative nancy for the past 10 years.


I disagree strongly.
But I see a very awful thing in this forum. Everybody who is being critic about Rondo is going to be attacked in person, without making debate facing facts and arguments.



Bob Ryan wasn't a fan of the kg trade?

Didn't think the 07 team would make the playoffs?

Bob Ryan isn't being critical of rondo, he's stating an unfounded, non factual personal opinion and apparently some think because he's bob Ryan he's stating a fact after deep investigative reporting.he's retired...he cannot correctly predict what rondo will do in anyway better then me or you.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: droopdog7 on February 13, 2013, 03:29:26 PM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: vinnie on February 13, 2013, 03:33:35 PM
Maybe I am mistaken here, but why do I recall that a few years back Bob Ryan referred to Rondo as a punk, or something like that. Anyone else remember that? And thanks to the OP for keeping the Rondo hate alive. By the way, Ryan has been trying to get Rondo out of town for a long time.

Didn't call him a punk, but this article appeared in 2009: http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2009/06/25/the_curious_case_of_rajon_rondo/

And a more recent article where Ryan shows his love for Rajon: http://www.csnne.com/blog/celtics-talk/post/Ryan-Rondos-inscrutability-drives-Celtic?blockID=661774

And, one more Ryan love letter to Rondo: http://www.csnne.com/blog/celtics-talk/post/Ryan-Rondo-makes-the-Celtics-nervous?blockID=606668

Anyone else sense a pattern?
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 03:36:32 PM

Bob Ryan has been a negative nancy for the past 10 years.


I disagree strongly.
But I see a very awful thing in this forum. Everybody who is being critic about Rondo is going to be attacked in person, without making debate facing facts and arguments.

  The opposite is the general case.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: rondohondo on February 13, 2013, 03:36:51 PM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.

Jackie Mac said on comcast last night that the example Danny gave her about how rondo's game can change is.....

Whenever a wing player , or someone who can handle the ball(Lee,Terry,Green)would get a rebound or a steal , they would immediately look for Rondo and wait to give it to him . Now with Rondo out those guys are just grabbing the ball and starting the break themselves .

 According to Jackie, Danny wants that sort of thing to continue when Rondo gets back. He wants Rondo to be busting it down the court even without the ball in his hand to put more pressure on defenses , and allowing himself to get to better spots on the floor to make plays when the ball gets to him.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: scaryjerry on February 13, 2013, 03:41:50 PM
Maybe I am mistaken here, but why do I recall that a few years back Bob Ryan referred to Rondo as a punk, or something like that. Anyone else remember that? And thanks to the OP for keeping the Rondo hate alive.


He must flip flop a lot then and be a prisoner of the moment then because after great playoff performances rondo has had he's referred to rondo as the most exciting player for him to watch...who knows but I didn't realize there were bob Ryan Homers that believe his unfounded personal opinions are fact
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: timobusa on February 13, 2013, 03:50:23 PM
Bob Ryan's opinion is not FACT.
It's his own speculation.
I for one am not a fan of him.
So I'm not gonna take whatever he says seriously.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 03:56:13 PM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.

  First of all Rondo wouldn't really be off the ball that much, he'd be one of the primary ball handlers in this offense. Secondly it's not really the case that defenders stay close to the other guards when they don't have the ball. That's why you get open shots with this offense.

  Also, if Rondo gets left completely open we'll be in great shape when he gets the ball and he's wide open, he can shoot or pass or drive. All nonsense aside, there's no way any team would consider players like Lee or Bradley to be bigger offensive threats than Rondo.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 13, 2013, 05:17:14 PM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.

Personally Id rather trade him for a good center if possible.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: aporel#18 on February 13, 2013, 05:24:05 PM
Maybe I am mistaken here, but why do I recall that a few years back Bob Ryan referred to Rondo as a punk, or something like that. Anyone else remember that? And thanks to the OP for keeping the Rondo hate alive. By the way, Ryan has been trying to get Rondo out of town for a long time.

Didn't call him a punk, but this article appeared in 2009: http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2009/06/25/the_curious_case_of_rajon_rondo/

And a more recent article where Ryan shows his love for Rajon: http://www.csnne.com/blog/celtics-talk/post/Ryan-Rondos-inscrutability-drives-Celtic?blockID=661774

And, one more Ryan love letter to Rondo: http://www.csnne.com/blog/celtics-talk/post/Ryan-Rondo-makes-the-Celtics-nervous?blockID=606668

Anyone else sense a pattern?

TP.

Bob Ryan is a respected journalist, but whenever he writes about the Celtics, he's more an oracle than a reporter. I guess he's earned respect and deserves it, but that doesn't mean he's right, just means his personal preferences, which Vinnie has brought in his post.

I think Rondo is a smart guy (just my opinion), and hope he can understand what the team needs from him. Looking forward to see him on the bench when his recovery allows him to do so. Every basketball team needs a coach on the court, and he's got all the tools. He could be, if he wants to, this era's Cousy. He's that good.

Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: snively on February 13, 2013, 05:24:14 PM
Rondo doesn't need to change much - the team was blazing hot with him playing his game in the 2nd half of last season. 

Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Mr October on February 13, 2013, 05:24:48 PM
Ryan is or at least was a great writer. But when he speaks he falls into talking-radio-head-stir-the-pot mode. He wants to get a rise, some attention.

He also said in the summer of 2007 that the Celtics had no business thinking championship after they acquired Allen and KG. Again I think he was just enjoying going against the grain.

I trust Jackie M much more. Rondo is a smart guy. Who knows what kind of changes he might make when he comes back.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 13, 2013, 05:24:58 PM
And who cares who Ryan is or what he says? Not many people in the hoopverse.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Mr October on February 13, 2013, 05:28:25 PM
And who cares who Ryan is or what he says? Not many people in the hoopverse.

For a couple decades, he was 1 of the premier NBA writers. He still carries some weight.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 13, 2013, 05:29:26 PM
And who cares who Ryan is or what he says? Not many people in the hoopverse.

For a couple decades, he was 1 of the premier NBA writers. He still carries some weight.

My bad then, never heard of him. I'm young :x
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: j804 on February 13, 2013, 05:49:48 PM
Ryan is or at least was a great writer. But when he speaks he falls into talking-radio-head-stir-the-pot mode. He wants to get a rise, some attention.

He also said in the summer of 2007 that the Celtics had no business thinking championship after they acquired Allen and KG. Again I think he was just enjoying going against the grain.

I trust Jackie M much more. Rondo is a smart guy. Who knows what kind of changes he might make when he comes back.
Jackie is the Woj of Boston she's awesome
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 05:55:38 PM
Rondo doesn't need to change much - the team was blazing hot with him playing his game in the 2nd half of last season.

  They were even better in 2011 before he was slowed by injuries.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 13, 2013, 05:56:42 PM
Rondo doesn't need to change much - the team was blazing hot with him playing his game in the 2nd half of last season.

Last year we had a completely different team.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 06:01:45 PM
Rondo doesn't need to change much - the team was blazing hot with him playing his game in the 2nd half of last season.

Last year we had a completely different team.

   We were slightly different. We still had (when Rondo was playing) the same starting 5 as we had down the stretch in 2012.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: rondohondo on February 13, 2013, 06:03:20 PM
Rondo doesn't need to change much - the team was blazing hot with him playing his game in the 2nd half of last season.



Last year we had a completely different team.

   We were slightly different. We still had (when Rondo was playing) the same starting 5 as we had down the stretch in 2012.

except for the best 3 point shooter ever ;)(in the playoffs)
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 06:06:53 PM
Rondo doesn't need to change much - the team was blazing hot with him playing his game in the 2nd half of last season.



Last year we had a completely different team.

   We were slightly different. We still had (when Rondo was playing) the same starting 5 as we had down the stretch in 2012.

except for the best 3 point shooter ever ;)

  Larry Bird?


  If you mean Ray he missed 15 out of the last 20 games.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 13, 2013, 06:07:18 PM
Rondo doesn't need to change much - the team was blazing hot with him playing his game in the 2nd half of last season.

Last year we had a completely different team.

   We were slightly different. We still had (when Rondo was playing) the same starting 5 as we had down the stretch in 2012.

Yeah but the bench is completely different. I wouldn't call that slightly different. Its different enough to make a huge difference in the kind of team we are.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Juneauz on February 13, 2013, 06:16:43 PM
I recently heard that global warming is Rondo's fault too.

Hang the guy!
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: droopdog7 on February 13, 2013, 06:21:15 PM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.

  First of all Rondo wouldn't really be off the ball that much, he'd be one of the primary ball handlers in this offense. Secondly it's not really the case that defenders stay close to the other guards when they don't have the ball. That's why you get open shots with this offense.

  Also, if Rondo gets left completely open we'll be in great shape when he gets the ball and he's wide open, he can shoot or pass or drive. All nonsense aside, there's no way any team would consider players like Lee or Bradley to be bigger offensive threats than Rondo.
Are you indicating that defenses don't completely ignore Rondo when he doesn't have the ball?  That they don't completely clog the middle every chance they get?  Or that they don't play Lee or Bradley more honestly when they don't have the ball than they do Rondo. 

Because that is what I see.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 06:46:58 PM
Rondo doesn't need to change much - the team was blazing hot with him playing his game in the 2nd half of last season.

Last year we had a completely different team.

   We were slightly different. We still had (when Rondo was playing) the same starting 5 as we had down the stretch in 2012.

Yeah but the bench is completely different. I wouldn't call that slightly different. Its different enough to make a huge difference in the kind of team we are.

  Not really. The team got off to a slow start last year as well. Eventually Doc would have shortened the rotations and had more set rotations and we'd have started playing better.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 06:50:55 PM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.

  First of all Rondo wouldn't really be off the ball that much, he'd be one of the primary ball handlers in this offense. Secondly it's not really the case that defenders stay close to the other guards when they don't have the ball. That's why you get open shots with this offense.

  Also, if Rondo gets left completely open we'll be in great shape when he gets the ball and he's wide open, he can shoot or pass or drive. All nonsense aside, there's no way any team would consider players like Lee or Bradley to be bigger offensive threats than Rondo.
Are you indicating that defenses don't completely ignore Rondo when he doesn't have the ball?  That they don't completely clog the middle every chance they get?  Or that they don't play Lee or Bradley more honestly when they don't have the ball than they do Rondo. 

Because that is what I see.

  I think you're kidding yourself if you think that people stick with players like Bradley and Lee when they don't have the ball. Heck, watch all the wide open shots KG gets, he's standing still on the perimeter without anyone close enough to him to challenge his shot when he gets a pass.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on February 13, 2013, 07:05:00 PM
I am sure that Rajon Rondo will be fine.

Whatever changes he may need to make next season will be done, because he loves this game AND he loves this team.

And he (and BOS) will be better because of it.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: More Banners on February 13, 2013, 07:49:56 PM
Rondo doesn't need to change much - the team was blazing hot with him playing his game in the 2nd half of last season.

Last year we had a completely different team.

   We were slightly different. We still had (when Rondo was playing) the same starting 5 as we had down the stretch in 2012.

Yeah but the bench is completely different. I wouldn't call that slightly different. Its different enough to make a huge difference in the kind of team we are.

  Not really. The team got off to a slow start last year as well. Eventually Doc would have shortened the rotations and had more set rotations and we'd have started playing better.

Yeah, I noticed this too.  I started wondering why I bother watching the C's before the ASB at all.  Doc sticks with things that aren't working early in the season, until it either works (like AB) or it gets worked out in the rotation around the midpoint.

Perk was quoted in Dec saying don't worry, the C's will have a 10 game win streak in January.  Well, it was late, and it was only 7 games, but the rotation shortened, roles became clear, everyone played to their strengths (hello, JET and Green), and wins ensued.

This streak was a testament to the depth of the roster.  We had quite a few rotation guys.  Now, it's time to get serious. 

See the veteran champs KG, Pierce, and JTerry stepping up?

See the youth and energy of Bradley and an engaged Green?

Think we're one piece away, and it isn't Rondo's skillset we're missing?

I say we try like hell to put a winner around these guys, who clearly want and deserve another shot.  Miami is the biggest roadblock, and we're built to beat them.

Trade Rondo for 75cents:  An injured all-star for a mid-level big like Gortat or Dalembert, and a backup guard.

Who cares whether he gets it or not.  We're okay.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: droopdog7 on February 13, 2013, 08:17:05 PM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.

  First of all Rondo wouldn't really be off the ball that much, he'd be one of the primary ball handlers in this offense. Secondly it's not really the case that defenders stay close to the other guards when they don't have the ball. That's why you get open shots with this offense.

  Also, if Rondo gets left completely open we'll be in great shape when he gets the ball and he's wide open, he can shoot or pass or drive. All nonsense aside, there's no way any team would consider players like Lee or Bradley to be bigger offensive threats than Rondo.
Are you indicating that defenses don't completely ignore Rondo when he doesn't have the ball?  That they don't completely clog the middle every chance they get?  Or that they don't play Lee or Bradley more honestly when they don't have the ball than they do Rondo. 

Because that is what I see.

  I think you're kidding yourself if you think that people stick with players like Bradley and Lee when they don't have the ball. Heck, watch all the wide open shots KG gets, he's standing still on the perimeter without anyone close enough to him to challenge his shot when he gets a pass.
You are completely missing the point.  I know defenders aren't sticking to Bradley and lee when they don't have the ball.  They wouldn't be playing team defense if they did.  But they are within a few steps and only leave those guys when the defense is compromised.  If someone beats their man, certainly they come down to prevent penetration.

That is NOT what happens when rondo.  In many cases, defenders are nowhere near him.  They overplay the guy with the ball and don't even bother trying to close out if rondo does get the ball.

Like I said, rondo is a different creature completely off the ball than lee and Bradley.  If you can't see that I'm not sure what to say.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 08:54:22 PM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.

  First of all Rondo wouldn't really be off the ball that much, he'd be one of the primary ball handlers in this offense. Secondly it's not really the case that defenders stay close to the other guards when they don't have the ball. That's why you get open shots with this offense.

  Also, if Rondo gets left completely open we'll be in great shape when he gets the ball and he's wide open, he can shoot or pass or drive. All nonsense aside, there's no way any team would consider players like Lee or Bradley to be bigger offensive threats than Rondo.
Are you indicating that defenses don't completely ignore Rondo when he doesn't have the ball?  That they don't completely clog the middle every chance they get?  Or that they don't play Lee or Bradley more honestly when they don't have the ball than they do Rondo. 

Because that is what I see.

  I think you're kidding yourself if you think that people stick with players like Bradley and Lee when they don't have the ball. Heck, watch all the wide open shots KG gets, he's standing still on the perimeter without anyone close enough to him to challenge his shot when he gets a pass.
You are completely missing the point.  I know defenders aren't sticking to Bradley and lee when they don't have the ball.  They wouldn't be playing team defense if they did.  But they are within a few steps and only leave those guys when the defense is compromised.  If someone beats their man, certainly they come down to prevent penetration.

That is NOT what happens when rondo.  In many cases, defenders are nowhere near him.  They overplay the guy with the ball and don't even bother trying to close out if rondo does get the ball.

Like I said, rondo is a different creature completely off the ball than lee and Bradley.  If you can't see that I'm not sure what to say.

  You're talking about a different kind of playing off the ball. Rondo wouldn't be standing in the corner while PP or someone else runs the offense for a play or two, he'll still be handling the ball quite a bit, making cuts and running off of screens.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: PhoSita on February 13, 2013, 10:28:19 PM
Two Boston sportswriters with whom it's generally smart not to disagree when it comes to the Celtics:

Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullen.

Agreed....when it comes to the history of the 80s Celtics...their opinions now don't carry much weight over anyone else's at all to be quite honest

I disagree strongly.

Jackie is better plugged in to what's going on in the Celtics organization than pretty much anybody.

Bob Ryan still knows what he's talking about.


Jackie is decent...bob ryans personal opinion doesn't mean anything...did you not read when I said he wasn't a fan of the kg trade and thought we'd barely make the playoffs in 2007?
but bob Ryan thought it, must be true!

Epic fail


I didn't say the man is always right.  I just said that when it comes to the Celtics, I respect his opinion more than almost anybody else in sports media.  He knows what he's talking about. 
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: Celtics18 on February 13, 2013, 11:07:01 PM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.

  First of all Rondo wouldn't really be off the ball that much, he'd be one of the primary ball handlers in this offense. Secondly it's not really the case that defenders stay close to the other guards when they don't have the ball. That's why you get open shots with this offense.

  Also, if Rondo gets left completely open we'll be in great shape when he gets the ball and he's wide open, he can shoot or pass or drive. All nonsense aside, there's no way any team would consider players like Lee or Bradley to be bigger offensive threats than Rondo.
Are you indicating that defenses don't completely ignore Rondo when he doesn't have the ball?  That they don't completely clog the middle every chance they get?  Or that they don't play Lee or Bradley more honestly when they don't have the ball than they do Rondo. 

Because that is what I see.

  I think you're kidding yourself if you think that people stick with players like Bradley and Lee when they don't have the ball. Heck, watch all the wide open shots KG gets, he's standing still on the perimeter without anyone close enough to him to challenge his shot when he gets a pass.
You are completely missing the point.  I know defenders aren't sticking to Bradley and lee when they don't have the ball.  They wouldn't be playing team defense if they did.  But they are within a few steps and only leave those guys when the defense is compromised.  If someone beats their man, certainly they come down to prevent penetration.

That is NOT what happens when rondo.  In many cases, defenders are nowhere near him.  They overplay the guy with the ball and don't even bother trying to close out if rondo does get the ball.

Like I said, rondo is a different creature completely off the ball than lee and Bradley.  If you can't see that I'm not sure what to say.

This is false.  Nobody completely ignores Rondo whether the ball is in his hands or not.  You simply don't forget about the other team's best player, even if he's not a great shooter. 

My pet peeve (and it's not just as it pertains to Rondo) is when falsehoods get restated so many times that everybody starts to think they are true. 
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: droopdog7 on February 14, 2013, 12:57:32 AM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.

  First of all Rondo wouldn't really be off the ball that much, he'd be one of the primary ball handlers in this offense. Secondly it's not really the case that defenders stay close to the other guards when they don't have the ball. That's why you get open shots with this offense.

  Also, if Rondo gets left completely open we'll be in great shape when he gets the ball and he's wide open, he can shoot or pass or drive. All nonsense aside, there's no way any team would consider players like Lee or Bradley to be bigger offensive threats than Rondo.
Are you indicating that defenses don't completely ignore Rondo when he doesn't have the ball?  That they don't completely clog the middle every chance they get?  Or that they don't play Lee or Bradley more honestly when they don't have the ball than they do Rondo. 

Because that is what I see.

  I think you're kidding yourself if you think that people stick with players like Bradley and Lee when they don't have the ball. Heck, watch all the wide open shots KG gets, he's standing still on the perimeter without anyone close enough to him to challenge his shot when he gets a pass.
You are completely missing the point.  I know defenders aren't sticking to Bradley and lee when they don't have the ball.  They wouldn't be playing team defense if they did.  But they are within a few steps and only leave those guys when the defense is compromised.  If someone beats their man, certainly they come down to prevent penetration.

That is NOT what happens when rondo.  In many cases, defenders are nowhere near him.  They overplay the guy with the ball and don't even bother trying to close out if rondo does get the ball.

Like I said, rondo is a different creature completely off the ball than lee and Bradley.  If you can't see that I'm not sure what to say.

This is false.  Nobody completely ignores Rondo whether the ball is in his hands or not.  You simply don't forget about the other team's best player, even if he's not a great shooter. 

My pet peeve (and it's not just as it pertains to Rondo) is when falsehoods get restated so many times that everybody starts to think they are true.
Okay, speaking of falsehoods, rondo isn't our best player.  Or at least, he isnt our most important.  And yes, when you have a weakness like rondo has, you most certainly can ignore him off the ball.  Thats what makes him such a unique player.  Just because you say it doesn't happen doesn't make it true. 
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: droopdog7 on February 14, 2013, 01:04:07 AM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.

  First of all Rondo wouldn't really be off the ball that much, he'd be one of the primary ball handlers in this offense. Secondly it's not really the case that defenders stay close to the other guards when they don't have the ball. That's why you get open shots with this offense.

  Also, if Rondo gets left completely open we'll be in great shape when he gets the ball and he's wide open, he can shoot or pass or drive. All nonsense aside, there's no way any team would consider players like Lee or Bradley to be bigger offensive threats than Rondo.
Are you indicating that defenses don't completely ignore Rondo when he doesn't have the ball?  That they don't completely clog the middle every chance they get?  Or that they don't play Lee or Bradley more honestly when they don't have the ball than they do Rondo. 

Because that is what I see.

  I think you're kidding yourself if you think that people stick with players like Bradley and Lee when they don't have the ball. Heck, watch all the wide open shots KG gets, he's standing still on the perimeter without anyone close enough to him to challenge his shot when he gets a pass.
You are completely missing the point.  I know defenders aren't sticking to Bradley and lee when they don't have the ball.  They wouldn't be playing team defense if they did.  But they are within a few steps and only leave those guys when the defense is compromised.  If someone beats their man, certainly they come down to prevent penetration.

That is NOT what happens when rondo.  In many cases, defenders are nowhere near him.  They overplay the guy with the ball and don't even bother trying to close out if rondo does get the ball.

Like I said, rondo is a different creature completely off the ball than lee and Bradley.  If you can't see that I'm not sure what to say.

  You're talking about a different kind of playing off the ball. Rondo wouldn't be standing in the corner while PP or someone else runs the offense for a play or two, he'll still be handling the ball quite a bit, making cuts and running off of screens.
Maybe.  I think we can agree that rondo standing in the corner isn't a good idea.  And I know the ball would still be in rondos hands a lot.  But we are clearly saying here is that the ball should be in his hands less than it is now.  My point is, because rondo doesn't bring all that much when he's off the ball, and he in fact can be a detriment, then I am not sure that change will work.

In turns of him running off screens and such, I don't know.  We're still talking about putting him in a situation that he is not accustomed to.  Running someone like ray off screens pose a serious threat to the defense.  Running rondo off screens, not so much.  Can he cut like like Bradley?  Perhaps.  But now were talking about turning him ins Bradley.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: celtics2 on February 14, 2013, 04:49:33 AM
Ryan is right on. Rondo should be considering an attitude change. He has the skills to be the leader of this team. Just has his priorities mixed up. The Celts are fun to watch again. Spirited and united offensively and defensively. Well, at least as much as they can given the cards they have to play. That's all I'm asking for until a breakthrough comes around. Bradley has a gift to pick up spirits of those around him. This is no fluke. It is the second time he has done it in his career with the Celts.
Let Rondo sit and learn till he gets it.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 14, 2013, 07:35:02 AM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.

  First of all Rondo wouldn't really be off the ball that much, he'd be one of the primary ball handlers in this offense. Secondly it's not really the case that defenders stay close to the other guards when they don't have the ball. That's why you get open shots with this offense.

  Also, if Rondo gets left completely open we'll be in great shape when he gets the ball and he's wide open, he can shoot or pass or drive. All nonsense aside, there's no way any team would consider players like Lee or Bradley to be bigger offensive threats than Rondo.
Are you indicating that defenses don't completely ignore Rondo when he doesn't have the ball?  That they don't completely clog the middle every chance they get?  Or that they don't play Lee or Bradley more honestly when they don't have the ball than they do Rondo. 

Because that is what I see.

  I think you're kidding yourself if you think that people stick with players like Bradley and Lee when they don't have the ball. Heck, watch all the wide open shots KG gets, he's standing still on the perimeter without anyone close enough to him to challenge his shot when he gets a pass.
You are completely missing the point.  I know defenders aren't sticking to Bradley and lee when they don't have the ball.  They wouldn't be playing team defense if they did.  But they are within a few steps and only leave those guys when the defense is compromised.  If someone beats their man, certainly they come down to prevent penetration.

That is NOT what happens when rondo.  In many cases, defenders are nowhere near him.  They overplay the guy with the ball and don't even bother trying to close out if rondo does get the ball.

Like I said, rondo is a different creature completely off the ball than lee and Bradley.  If you can't see that I'm not sure what to say.

This is false.  Nobody completely ignores Rondo whether the ball is in his hands or not.  You simply don't forget about the other team's best player, even if he's not a great shooter. 

My pet peeve (and it's not just as it pertains to Rondo) is when falsehoods get restated so many times that everybody starts to think they are true.
Okay, speaking of falsehoods, rondo isn't our best player.  Or at least, he isnt our most important.  And yes, when you have a weakness like rondo has, you most certainly can ignore him off the ball.  Thats what makes him such a unique player.  Just because you say it doesn't happen doesn't make it true.

  Rondo's been our best player for a while. Saying he isn't our most valuable is IMO fairly silly. KG is obviously our most valuable player but that's due to the rest of the roster, he's quite a bit more valuable than he was before his knee injury when he was an MVP candidate.
Title: Re: Ryan not optimistic Rondo will learn
Post by: BballTim on February 14, 2013, 07:55:01 AM
I am not saying Rondo CAN'T change.  I am not saying Rondo Won'T change.  Because frankly, I really have no idea.

But here is the important question.  If Rondo DID change, then what kind of value would he bring to the team.  Off thd ball, he isn't really very much help at all to the team.  Guys will double off of him and his presence will probably hurt the offense more than it helps.

So basically, we either committ to Rondo and let him be Rondo or we don't.

  First of all Rondo wouldn't really be off the ball that much, he'd be one of the primary ball handlers in this offense. Secondly it's not really the case that defenders stay close to the other guards when they don't have the ball. That's why you get open shots with this offense.

  Also, if Rondo gets left completely open we'll be in great shape when he gets the ball and he's wide open, he can shoot or pass or drive. All nonsense aside, there's no way any team would consider players like Lee or Bradley to be bigger offensive threats than Rondo.
Are you indicating that defenses don't completely ignore Rondo when he doesn't have the ball?  That they don't completely clog the middle every chance they get?  Or that they don't play Lee or Bradley more honestly when they don't have the ball than they do Rondo. 

Because that is what I see.

  I think you're kidding yourself if you think that people stick with players like Bradley and Lee when they don't have the ball. Heck, watch all the wide open shots KG gets, he's standing still on the perimeter without anyone close enough to him to challenge his shot when he gets a pass.
You are completely missing the point.  I know defenders aren't sticking to Bradley and lee when they don't have the ball.  They wouldn't be playing team defense if they did.  But they are within a few steps and only leave those guys when the defense is compromised.  If someone beats their man, certainly they come down to prevent penetration.

That is NOT what happens when rondo.  In many cases, defenders are nowhere near him.  They overplay the guy with the ball and don't even bother trying to close out if rondo does get the ball.

Like I said, rondo is a different creature completely off the ball than lee and Bradley.  If you can't see that I'm not sure what to say.

  You're talking about a different kind of playing off the ball. Rondo wouldn't be standing in the corner while PP or someone else runs the offense for a play or two, he'll still be handling the ball quite a bit, making cuts and running off of screens.
Maybe.  I think we can agree that rondo standing in the corner isn't a good idea.  And I know the ball would still be in rondos hands a lot.  But we are clearly saying here is that the ball should be in his hands less than it is now.  My point is, because rondo doesn't bring all that much when he's off the ball, and he in fact can be a detriment, then I am not sure that change will work.

In turns of him running off screens and such, I don't know.  We're still talking about putting him in a situation that he is not accustomed to.  Running someone like ray off screens pose a serious threat to the defense.  Running rondo off screens, not so much.  Can he cut like like Bradley?  Perhaps.  But now were talking about turning him ins Bradley.

  Again, he'll have the ball in his hands more than Lee or Bradley or Terry do now. He's not going to be spending much time off the ball, just for a couple of passes at a time. We'll still want to have the ball in his hands quite a bit as he's the best ball handler, passer and creator on the team and, when he puts his mind to it, a better scorer than Lee or Bradley as well.