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Other Discussions => Off Topic => Topic started by: crownontherocks on February 12, 2013, 04:55:55 PM

Title: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: crownontherocks on February 12, 2013, 04:55:55 PM
LOS ANGELES (AP) — A person believed to be the fugitive ex-Los Angeles cop sought in three killings exchanged gunfire with authorities in the San Bernardino Mountains on Tuesday, a law enforcement official said on condition of anonymity.
The officer requested anonymity because the officer was not authorized to speak publicly about the ongoing investigation.
It's believed Christopher Dorner committed a residential burglary of a cabin where a couple was tied up, the officer told The Associated Press.
One of the people was able to get away and make a call.
Authorities responded to the location and gave chase when the burglar fled in a stolen car. Gunfire was exchanged.

The area is in the Big Bear region where a search for Dorner has been under way since his pickup truck was found there Thursday.
A KCAL-TV reporter in the Angelus Oaks area along Highway 38 reported gunfire in his vicinity.
The noise of the gunbattle was broadcast by the station, whose reporter suddenly found himself near the fight. Someone could be heard yelling at the reporter to get out of the area.
Road blocks are up around Big Bear.
San Bernardino County sheriff's spokeswoman Jodi Miller said a stolen vehicle report from a residence was received at 12:20 p.m.
"The reporting party identified the suspect as looking like Christopher Dorner but that has not been confirmed," Miller said.

The former Navy reservist began his run from the law on Feb. 6 after authorities connected the slayings of a former police captain's daughter and her fiance with an angry manifesto they said Dorner posted on Facebook. He vowed to bring "warfare" to Los Angeles police and their family members, which led the department to assign officers to guard more than 50 families connected to his so-called targets.

Within hours of the release of photos of the 6-foot, 270-pounder described as armed and "extremely dangerous," Dorner allegedly unsuccessfully tried to steal a boat in San Diego to flee to Mexico and then ambushed police in Riverside County, shooting three and killing one.
Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's.

The hunt for Dorner appeared to go cold after his burned-out pickup was found later that morning in the mountains east of Los Angeles and his footprints disappeared on frozen ground.
Police found charred weapons and camping gear inside the truck, but it wasn't clear if he had fled into the San Bernardino Mountains near the resort town of Big Bear Lake or left the area.
Helicopters using heat-seeking technology searched the forest from above while scores of officers, some using bloodhounds, scoured the ground and checked hundreds of vacation cabins — many vacant this time of year — in the area. A snowstorm hindered the search and may have helped cover his tracks, though authorities were hopeful he would leave fresh footprints if hiding in the wilderness.

Dorner's beef with the department dated back at least five years, when he was fired for filing a false report accusing his training officer of kicking a mentally ill suspect. Dorner, who is black, claimed in his manifesto that he was the subject of racism by the department and fired for doing the right thing.
He said he would get even with those who wronged him in an event to reclaim his good name.
"You're going to see what a whistleblower can do when you take everything from him especially his NAME!!!" he wrote. "You have awoken a sleeping giant."
Chief Charlie Beck, who initially dismissed the allegations in Dorner's rant, said he would reopen the investigation into his firing — not to appease the ex-officer, but to restore confidence in the black community, which long had a fractured relationship with police that has improved in recent years.
One of the targets listed in the manifesto was former LAPD Capt. Randal Quan, who represented Dorner before the disciplinary board. Dorner claimed he put the interests of the department above his.

The first victims were Quan's daughter, Monica Quan, 28, a college basketball coach, and her fiance, Keith Lawrence, 27, who were shot multiple times in their car in a parking garage near their condo.
Dorner served in the Navy, earning a rifle marksman ribbon and pistol expert medal. He was assigned to a naval undersea warfare unit and various aviation training units, according to military records. He took leave from the LAPD for a six-month deployment to Bahrain in 2006 and 2007.


http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-ex-cop-exchanges-fire-authorities-212301702.html
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: crownontherocks on February 12, 2013, 05:00:53 PM
cnn is saying 2 deputies were shot in the shoot out
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: crownontherocks on February 12, 2013, 06:46:39 PM
There reporting another cop has died
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 12, 2013, 06:48:17 PM
Crazy stuff.
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: dinome18 on February 12, 2013, 06:56:30 PM
Apparently he's upset with an attempted cover up by the LAPD that he wouldn't partake in. No excuse for such terrible violence but it makes you wonder. ???
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 12, 2013, 07:02:55 PM
Yeah, this story is nuts, I've been following it since it broke.  Some brief details:

- Dorner's beef with the LAPD stems from an incident when he reported his supervisor repeatedly kicked an incapacitated mentally ill man in the face.  He eventually got fired for "making false statements" based on this and lost all his internal and external court challenges.

- He states (this is all in a long manifesto) that the LAPD is riddled with racism, sexism, and that cops are callous and cynical about the cases they try, frequently deliberately cutting corners and abusing suspects.

- Getting fired apparently cost him his security clearance with the Navy, so he can't go back to that either.  He believes the firing cost him any chance at a career and family.

- He says he is targeting not just several specific cops, but their families.  His first victims were the daughter and son-in-law of the cop who defended him in the investigation - he claims the guy threw his case.

- Since the spree started, local police (not sure if actually LAPD or not) have shot at least three people who were near cops on the hit list in trucks that only superficially resembled Dorner's.

Insane story - it's like a movie plot except of course that actual people are being killed.  It's my sincere hope that Dorner is taken in with no more bloodshed, and that both Dorner and his allegations against the LAPD are investigated fully by neutral authorities.
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: Donoghus on February 12, 2013, 10:10:31 PM
Sounds like Dorner is dead now. Possibly taken out by a police sniper.

Good riddance.  What an awful story. 
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: Eddie20 on February 12, 2013, 10:42:03 PM
Sounds like Dorner is dead now. Possibly taken out by a police sniper.

I can almost guarantee you that it was self inflicted.
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: Donoghus on February 12, 2013, 10:44:25 PM
Sounds like Dorner is dead now. Possibly taken out by a police sniper.

I can almost guarantee you that it was self inflicted.

Quite possible. All sorts of stuff out there a little bit earlier.

It'll be interesting what is said at the press conference.
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: KG Living Legend on February 12, 2013, 11:07:12 PM
 
 This Just in. No Body has been found. They have not been able to search the cabin it's still too hot. From the Press conference.
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: crownontherocks on February 12, 2013, 11:40:25 PM

 This Just in. No Body has been found. They have not been able to search the cabin it's still too hot. From the Press conference.

I wonder if theres a chance he got away
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: KGs Knee on February 12, 2013, 11:47:37 PM
Quite frankly, I wouldn't be even remotely surprised if the LAPD was guilty of everything he is accusing them of.  The LAPD is notorious for being a bad lot.

Regardless, there is never an excuse for this kind of behaviour.  Disgusting.
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 13, 2013, 12:07:24 AM
Sounds like they're pretty sure his body is in there but they can't go in to confirm yet.  Given that he didn't own the place and so couldn't have any hidden exits or anything, I'm pretty sure they're right.
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: crownontherocks on February 13, 2013, 01:13:30 AM
Found these clips. 

1:06 "we're gonna go forward with the plan with the burn" 1:27 "seven burners deployed and we have a fire

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=QMU1RNURtHs&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQMU1RNURtHs


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=lrc74j300Ms&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dlrc74j300Ms
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: action781 on February 13, 2013, 01:58:21 AM
Insane story - it's like a movie plot except of course that actual people are being killed.  It's my sincere hope that Dorner is taken in with no more bloodshed, and that both Dorner and his allegations against the LAPD are investigated fully by neutral authorities.

Yeah, that's how I feel, but it looks like that's not going to be the case.

I have a feeling that Dorner's story is true which is messed up.

(Do I need to disclaim the obvious statement that I still think his rampage was inexcusable?  Well, there it is.)
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: crownontherocks on February 13, 2013, 02:01:29 AM
Around 1:24 mark you can hear them mentioning "burn it down" and mention something about "gas". It sounds like they say to burn it down. I am interested to see what the liveleak community thinks they said in this video. The owner of the cabin did say the cabin did have propane.


http://www.liveleak .com/view?i=cc3_1360731734
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 13, 2013, 03:29:08 AM
Smoke and fire has long been used to break up fortified positions through out man's history.

I read today one charred body found.  I do not feel sympathetic to Dorner at all.   Probably shot himself when the building went up and smoke happened.   I 'd rather die by bullet than get roasted alive.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on February 13, 2013, 03:46:31 AM
Good old US of A, innocent until proven guilty...
Title: Re: AP source: Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities
Post by: kozlodoev on February 13, 2013, 12:57:09 PM
Apparently he's upset with an attempted cover up by the LAPD that he wouldn't partake in. No excuse for such terrible violence but it makes you wonder. ???
I can't fathom a situation in which the solution to this is to go rogue. Die Hard is just a movie.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: LB3533 on February 13, 2013, 01:07:06 PM
Do we know for certain that this guy actually killed anyone. Did this guy actually write the manifesto or was it planted?

Is this guy being framed?
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 13, 2013, 01:56:43 PM
Do we know for certain that this guy actually killed anyone. Did this guy actually write the manifesto or was it planted?

Is this guy being framed?

Can you define the level of evidence you'd consider acceptable to answer the first set of questions?  Would it differ from the level you'd need to answer the last one?
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 02:00:53 PM


  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: Rondo2287 on February 13, 2013, 02:02:40 PM


  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

Hence why only trained professionals should have access to the high magazine count weapons.  They know alone know how to safely operate them
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 13, 2013, 02:08:59 PM


  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:

(http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/assets/images/content/truck-shot-by-lapd-in-dorner.jpeg)
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: BballTim on February 13, 2013, 02:12:54 PM


  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:

(http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/assets/images/content/truck-shot-by-lapd-in-dorner.jpeg)

  That's quite a few bullets, too bad those guys didn't have a rocket launcher or something. And is it a little odd that the bullet holes are in the back of the truck? Where were they guarding the family from?
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 13, 2013, 02:17:01 PM


  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:

(http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/assets/images/content/truck-shot-by-lapd-in-dorner.jpeg)

  That's quite a few bullets, too bad those guys didn't have a rocket launcher or something. And is it a little odd that the bullet holes are in the back of the truck? Where were they guarding the family from?

Don't know specifics but my guess is they were in a concealed position, came out fast behind the truck, maybe the driver panicked and started to take off so they shot it up good.  Very fortunate those women are still alive because that looks like a pretty vicious mix of incompetence and overkill.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: Donoghus on February 13, 2013, 02:20:14 PM


  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:

(http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/assets/images/content/truck-shot-by-lapd-in-dorner.jpeg)

  That's quite a few bullets, too bad those guys didn't have a rocket launcher or something. And is it a little odd that the bullet holes are in the back of the truck? Where were they guarding the family from?

Don't know specifics but my guess is they were in a concealed position, came out fast behind the truck, maybe the driver panicked and started to take off so they shot it up good.  Very fortunate those women are still alive because that looks like a pretty vicious mix of incompetence and overkill.

Judging by the number of bullet holes visible, overkill certainly is an apt term in this situation.  Yikes.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: Eddie20 on February 13, 2013, 02:26:22 PM
Do we know for certain that this guy actually killed anyone. Did this guy actually write the manifesto or was it planted?

Is this guy being framed?

Seriously?

It's posts like these that make me wish we could give negative TP's.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: pearljammer10 on February 13, 2013, 02:29:16 PM


  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:

(http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/assets/images/content/truck-shot-by-lapd-in-dorner.jpeg)

  That's quite a few bullets, too bad those guys didn't have a rocket launcher or something. And is it a little odd that the bullet holes are in the back of the truck? Where were they guarding the family from?

Don't know specifics but my guess is they were in a concealed position, came out fast behind the truck, maybe the driver panicked and started to take off so they shot it up good.  Very fortunate those women are still alive because that looks like a pretty vicious mix of incompetence and overkill.

Judging by the number of bullet holes visible, overkill certainly is an apt term in this situation.  Yikes.

This is unbelievable.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: jgod213 on February 13, 2013, 02:31:56 PM
From other sources it sounded like, at least initially, the LAPD was trying to portray his manifesto as the musings of a madman, but based upon that amnifesto, Dorner sounded like an eloquent and thoughful man that was pushed to his breaking point...

In his writings he mentions certain types of cops and specific individuals who he planned to target, but were any of the people that he killed even remotely related to his history/backstory?  I know he killed the daughter/son in law of his former attorney, but his writings suggested that innocents, for the most part, would be spared.  That doesn't seem to be how it went down though...
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: Eddie20 on February 13, 2013, 02:36:35 PM


  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:

(http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/assets/images/content/truck-shot-by-lapd-in-dorner.jpeg)

To be fair, the likelihood of him operating his registered vehicle while being sought out in state wide manhunt is extremely remote.  Hence as to why he was in a stolen car.

And in the photo of the shot up vehicle you simply can't see inside due to darkened tints. I wasn't there to say why the officers shot, but when given the totality of the facts I would doubt if you, Monday morning QB, would calmly have walked up to the vehicle like it was a Sunday stroll in the park.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: slamtheking on February 13, 2013, 02:45:50 PM


  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:

(http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/assets/images/content/truck-shot-by-lapd-in-dorner.jpeg)

  That's quite a few bullets, too bad those guys didn't have a rocket launcher or something. And is it a little odd that the bullet holes are in the back of the truck? Where were they guarding the family from?

Don't know specifics but my guess is they were in a concealed position, came out fast behind the truck, maybe the driver panicked and started to take off so they shot it up good.  Very fortunate those women are still alive because that looks like a pretty vicious mix of incompetence and overkill.

Judging by the number of bullet holes visible, overkill certainly is an apt term in this situation.  Yikes.

This is unbelievable.
lawyers must be lined up around the block to represent those women in what would appear to be a real slam-dunk case.  Cops firing that barrage of bullets not only at the wrong vehicle, but the wrong number of people in it, wrong gender and people actually performing a visible, legitimate act in the area (delivering papers).  Why bother to find out who your shooting at first or even bother to try to detain them before shooting?  not with the good old LAPD. 

7-figure settlement apiece at least.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 13, 2013, 02:59:40 PM


  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:

(http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/assets/images/content/truck-shot-by-lapd-in-dorner.jpeg)

To be fair, the likelihood of him operating his registered vehicle while being sought out in state wide manhunt is extremely remote.  Hence as to why he was in a stolen car.

Except that shortly after this incident they found Dorner's burned-out truck, in the area where he was eventually apprehended.  So perhaps the odds were not as remote as you're categorically stating them to be.  Not to mention the police specifically cited the similarity of the vehicle as a rationale for firing.

Quote
And in the photo of the shot up vehicle you simply can't see inside due to darkened tints. I wasn't there to say why the officers shot, but when given the totality of the facts I would doubt if you, Monday morning QB, would calmly have walked up to the vehicle like it was a Sunday stroll in the park.

I'd say there's a pretty robust middle ground between "calmly walk up to the vehicle whistling a merry tune" and "fire dozens of rounds into a vehicle with no positive ID and no indication of threat other than stopping near the residence of a police officer".  Especially considering they did the same thing again shortly later in the same area. (http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/09/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130210)

It's certainly possible there were unreported circumstances that mitigated this, but they would have to be pretty extraordinary to consider this an appropriate response by the police, and simply assuming they were present is just Monday morning quarterbacking in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: Eddie20 on February 13, 2013, 03:24:34 PM


  "Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's."

  Yikes.

They also shot a third person later for driving a truck in the same spot.  Thing is, neither truck really resembled Dorner's, other than being a truck.  Dorner had a grey Titan - here's the truck the two women had:

(http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/assets/images/content/truck-shot-by-lapd-in-dorner.jpeg)

To be fair, the likelihood of him operating his registered vehicle while being sought out in state wide manhunt is extremely remote.  Hence as to why he was in a stolen car.

Except that shortly after this incident they found Dorner's burned-out truck, in the area where he was eventually apprehended.  So perhaps the odds were not as remote as you're categorically stating them to be.  Not to mention the police specifically cited the similarity of the vehicle as a rationale for firing.

Quote
And in the photo of the shot up vehicle you simply can't see inside due to darkened tints. I wasn't there to say why the officers shot, but when given the totality of the facts I would doubt if you, Monday morning QB, would calmly have walked up to the vehicle like it was a Sunday stroll in the park.

I'd say there's a pretty robust middle ground between "calmly walk up to the vehicle whistling a merry tune" and "fire dozens of rounds into a vehicle with no positive ID and no indication of threat other than stopping near the residence of a police officer".  Especially considering they did the same thing again shortly later in the same area. (http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/09/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130210)

It's certainly possible there were unreported circumstances that mitigated this, but they would have to be pretty extraordinary to consider this an appropriate response by the police, and simply assuming they were present is just Monday morning quarterbacking in the opposite direction.

Finding his truck and him actually driving his truck are two different things. Tactically speaking that would be the worst thing he could do. So if he's an untrained idiot, without any sense of tactical training and/or experience, then yes he might be in his own vehicle. However, considering his experience in both military and law enforcement, it would be extremely remote.

I'm not Monday morning QB'ing the situation. I'm just saying that in this specific case there are factors that you didn't point out and factors that are still unknown. You stated that the vehicle didn't match, which was completely irrelevant.

And the "dozens of rounds" usually happens when multiple officers are involved in a shooting. It's almost an impossibility to differentiate where the rounds are coming from, so you often get a bunch of rounds fired.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: Roy H. on February 13, 2013, 03:30:39 PM

I'm not Monday morning QB'ing the situation. I'm just saying that in this specific case there are factors that you didn't point out and factors that are still unknown. You stated that the vehicle didn't match, which was completely irrelevant.

Is there any reasonable set of facts that could justify that many bullets being fired into a truck without a positive ID?

I'm sympathetic to the cops.  Working for LAPD is a high enough stress job already, without the ramped up tension of this manhunt.  If any reasonable office heard a report that the suspect may be heading my way, and then a truck approached without its headlines on, I'm sure they'd suspect the worst. 

However, this isn't the wild west.  Cops aren't supposed to shoot on sight.  They're not assassins, they're officers sworn to uphold the law.  Seven officers firing dozens of shots at a vehicle without knowing who is inside is the height of irresponsibility.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: Eddie20 on February 13, 2013, 03:49:29 PM

I'm not Monday morning QB'ing the situation. I'm just saying that in this specific case there are factors that you didn't point out and factors that are still unknown. You stated that the vehicle didn't match, which was completely irrelevant.

Is there any reasonable set of facts that could justify that many bullets being fired into a truck without a positive ID?

Absolutely.

Quote
Sources said the Los Angeles police detectives involved in the Torrance shooting were on protective detail for a police official named in the suspect's supposed manifesto, which was posted on what authorities believe is his Facebook page.

That's the background. I can also assure you they were likely in plain clothes and an unmarked vehicle where they have a clear vantage point of the residence. Vehicle drives slowly and subsequently stops at a couple of residences. In hindsight it's known that they're delivering papers, but at the moment you're probably thinking it's Dorner looking for the address. Not only is it dark (which I assume considering the hour of the day), but the windows are also tinted so you don't have a clear vantage point of the occupants.  Not certain if they approached in the vehicle, but I will say that if it were indeed Dorner it would be tactful to exit the vehicle and approach by foot rather than activate your lights and make Dorner aware of your presence. The element of surprise being key. So you approach and the delivery people are startled and make some sudden movement. 1 officer shoots, the other officer simply hearing shots, fires into the vehicle as well. End result is a bunch of rounds into a vehicle, but as long as the officers can articulate their actions they will be fine. At worst, the department, and the two detectives are sued civilly, which often results in an out of court settlement dependent on the demands of the plaintiffs.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: Fafnir on February 13, 2013, 03:51:23 PM
Ugh, great write up of crappy police work and how likely it is they won't be punished for it.

But hey the city will have a nice big insurance claim to deal with when they pay out a settlement/judgment.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: blink on February 13, 2013, 04:10:01 PM
Here's the story from the LA times:
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/08/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130209

I live in orange county ca.  The manhunt story has been on basically 24/7 over the last day or so.  There hasn't been hardly any coverage about the mistaken identity shooting though.

I don't see what those two older hispanic ladies could have done to justify the gunfire into their vehicle.  I don't buy the "You stated that the vehicle didn't match, which was completely irrelevant." argument.  There are millions of autos in so cal, does that give the police the right to shoot up any of them they want? 

Yes, it was a edgy time for so cal law enforcement, but that doesn't mean you throw the law out the window and just start firing guns at people whose identity you haven't even confirmed yet.  This is the US.  It isn't a war zone.
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 13, 2013, 04:13:11 PM
To be fair, the likelihood of him operating his registered vehicle while being sought out in state wide manhunt is extremely remote.  Hence as to why he was in a stolen car.

Except that shortly after this incident they found Dorner's burned-out truck, in the area where he was eventually apprehended.  So perhaps the odds were not as remote as you're categorically stating them to be.  Not to mention the police specifically cited the similarity of the vehicle as a rationale for firing.

Quote
And in the photo of the shot up vehicle you simply can't see inside due to darkened tints. I wasn't there to say why the officers shot, but when given the totality of the facts I would doubt if you, Monday morning QB, would calmly have walked up to the vehicle like it was a Sunday stroll in the park.

I'd say there's a pretty robust middle ground between "calmly walk up to the vehicle whistling a merry tune" and "fire dozens of rounds into a vehicle with no positive ID and no indication of threat other than stopping near the residence of a police officer".  Especially considering they did the same thing again shortly later in the same area. (http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/09/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130210)

It's certainly possible there were unreported circumstances that mitigated this, but they would have to be pretty extraordinary to consider this an appropriate response by the police, and simply assuming they were present is just Monday morning quarterbacking in the opposite direction.

Finding his truck and him actually driving his truck are two different things. Tactically speaking that would be the worst thing he could do. So if he's an untrained idiot, without any sense of tactical training and/or experience, then yes he might be in his own vehicle. However, considering his experience in both military and law enforcement, it would be extremely remote.

Wait, are you arguing that his truck was found in Big Bear, he was (later) found in Big Bear, but he didn't drive his truck to Big Bear?  That seems extremely unlikely.  What's the tactical decision here - he towed his truck there to fool the police into searching for him where he was?

I'm not Monday morning QB'ing the situation. I'm just saying that in this specific case there are factors that you didn't point out and factors that are still unknown. You stated that the vehicle didn't match, which was completely irrelevant.

How is it completely irrelevant when the police specifically cited the similarity of the vehicle as their rationale for believing both of the trucks to be Dorner?

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A team of Los Angeles police officers protecting the home of a high-ranking officer in the 19500 block of Redbeam Avenue believed a pickup truck that stopped in front of the house matched Dorner's blue Nissan Titan.

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...at that point, a driver in another pickup truck that look similar to Dorner's drove toward them on Flagler Lane near Beryl Street.  Officers, suspecting it was Dorner, purposely collided with the truck and shot at him.

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_22544264/police-suspecting-christopher-dorners-arrival-shoot-3-innocent (http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_22544264/police-suspecting-christopher-dorners-arrival-shoot-3-innocent)
 
It sounds like you've independently decided Dorner must have abandoned his vehicle and are flatly denying all the evidence that he was actually in his truck, the police expected him to be in his truck, and they were, at that time, right to assume so. 

Like Roy, I'm sympathetic to the cops; it's a tough job on an ordinary day and this was no ordinary day.  Don't envy them being in that position one bit.  But that doesn't give them carte blanche to open fire on innocent people in multiple situations based on a superficial resemblance to the guy they were looking for. 
Title: Re: AP source: Christopher Dorner exchanges fire with authorities, 1dead
Post by: KGs Knee on February 13, 2013, 04:15:02 PM
Freaking unbeliebavble!

LAPD deserves every bad thing ever said about them.  This doesn't even seem like a incident where the indentity was mistaken.  The dang truck wasn't even the same color or make/model.  Incompetence in it's worst form is what this is.  Innocent people almost died as a result.

The Dorner guy got what he deserved, although I still think there is something going on under the surface with his alleged "cover-up" claims.  Again, the LAPD is widely know for being the most corrupt police department in the nation.  I think ther needs to be a real, and impartial investigation into what really went on, as it pertains to Dorner's dismissal.