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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Mazingerz on February 11, 2013, 12:49:42 AM

Title: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Mazingerz on February 11, 2013, 12:49:42 AM
Are we people too short sighted that Rondo is an integral part of this team? Even doc, danny, PP and KG have stipulated this in interviews?

We only can see that:

1. He is moody (although if you look at it Bird, russel hell even KG are moody);
2. He is a ball-hog (Doc's system dictated that he get the ball almost all of the time - doc is a stubborn goat who likes to executes plays which are at times stale already);

But look at rondo as a player, I am not a Rondo apologist - i sometimes am also frustrated by the way Rondo and the Celtics play - but I believe that we need him, and the team needs him.

the kid has heart and once he gets back he'll even be a stud for the celtics. Mark my words, If we traded him and he excels with the other team (think Tony Allen) Some people here will say "Man I wish we still had Rondo";
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Scottie on February 11, 2013, 12:53:31 AM
I'm not seeing any bashing of the guy, simple people speculation on scenario's for the team that don't involve him.

Perk was an integral part of the team too, remember? Doesn't mean they're here forever.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Mazingerz on February 11, 2013, 12:57:06 AM
We have a BASH RONDO THREAD here.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 11, 2013, 12:58:10 AM
Rondo criticism means rondo bashing? And why does it have to stop? If people feel like the celtics are better without rondo that's their opinion. I don't think we're better without him per say but I think we're better without him dominating the ball tho.

Sadly the only way that was going to stop was the exact way it did, by rondo going down with a season ending injury. That's more on doc than anything. He had the players to make it work, he just wasn't making it work. Another example of doc being overrated.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Mazingerz on February 11, 2013, 01:05:08 AM
Ball dominating plays are usually Doc's fave set-ups.

But now i believe that this (rondo's injury) has been a blessing in disguise for the Cs. I for one have been harping about Doc's play calling since the start of this season. He was not using his new players to their strengths. He tried to play Terry as a substitute for Judas - running the multiple screen plays for Terry to catch and shoot. Or using lee to that same effect.

But i still want Doc as our coach but he needs to adapt.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: dmopower on February 11, 2013, 01:12:52 AM
Like the last poster said. People are not bashing Rondo. There calling it like it is, like it was, like some of the more insightful people were saying before Rondo went down.

 Hes a great tallent but his dominance of the ball and selfish attitude that he had to be the one to make the pass was not conductive to our offense and allowed other teams to better prepare for us defensivly.

 You don't go get guys like PP and KG whom are both fine facillitators of the offense then tie their hands and expect them to be catch and shoot player. And hope your team plays better.  Thats insane!!

 I trust that by now Rondo's ego is alittle further in check and I expect his game to be changed when he returns. If not it's on Doc and Danny!

 Now maybe people understand why Ray Allen left. He may have been the only one with the Bball iq and tact to try and address this issue. Yes I said tact as he handled it internaly until he left.  Thats class!

Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: indeedproceed on February 11, 2013, 01:13:01 AM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Clench123 on February 11, 2013, 01:16:55 AM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

Man...I couldn't have put it any better.  Thanks for that.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 11, 2013, 01:34:56 AM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 11, 2013, 01:37:20 AM
Rondo........


who.    ???
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: ScottHow on February 11, 2013, 01:39:27 AM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

And there it is. tp
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: blink on February 11, 2013, 02:24:15 AM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

Absolutely one of the best posts I have read here at celticsblog.  TP!
cheers
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: indeedproceed on February 11, 2013, 02:32:41 AM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: krook on February 11, 2013, 02:51:15 AM
EDIT: Check PMs
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 11, 2013, 02:55:19 AM
It's not so much "bashing" as it is a necessary correction to the Rondo market.  Things had gotten out of hand here.  Too many crazy claims that he was the "best point guard in the league", too many people calling him the MVP of the team and a "superstar"...  and too many delusional folks arguing he was better than Chris Paul. 

These past 7 games have been enlightening.  Rondo's still a great player... he's just not a franchise player.  I still love him.  Enjoying the heck out of the way this team is playing without him, though.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: indeedproceed on February 11, 2013, 03:02:54 AM
It's not so much "bashing" as it is a necessary correction to the Rondo market.  Things had gotten out of hand here.  Too many crazy claims that he was the "best point guard in the league", too many people calling him the MVP of the team and a "superstar"...  and too many delusional folks arguing he was better than Chris Paul. 

These past 7 games have been enlightening.  Rondo's still a great player... he's just not a franchise player.  I still love him.  Enjoying the heck out of the way this team is playing without him, though.

Eh, there was a goodly amount of outright bashing. There still is. You're right though, anointing Rondo above CP3 was an annoying sentiment, but it has historically been tempered with as many people decrying it.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: jdz101 on February 11, 2013, 03:05:27 AM
(http://i45.tinypic.com/30kx3r9.jpg)
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 11, 2013, 03:06:01 AM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.

Boston has always had a tendency to win without Rondo, because our scorers step up.  Instead of having 4 scorers and a passer, you have 5 scorers.  The impact hasn't historically been that great.

I'm a little annoyed by so many people bringing up 2009 as an example of how Boston played "great" without KG.  It's forgetting the fact that Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were still allstar players at the time.  Rondo was coming into his own.  Perkins was at the height of his defensive powers.  We won games in spite of Glen Davis not because of him (I was extremely vocal about that at the time... Davis was the beneficiary of his teammates... KG's teammates were the beneficiary of him).  And in the playoffs, the loss of KG was brutal.  It took mighty otherworldly performances from Ray Allen and Rondo to even knock off the young Bulls in 7 games (including multiple overtime games)... a team that we DESTROYED the next year when we played them in the regular season with KG (28 point blowout on October 30th... 26 point blowout on December 12th)....  Despite the fact we had Ray and Pierce just shy of their prime, KG was the difference between being an pesky little playoff team who could barely scrape by a young Chicago team... to a legit contender that lost the championship by 4 points.

KG is integral to the success of this team... especially at this point where we are deprived of bigs and our defense revolves around his skillset.  Losing KG at this point would be catastrophic.  Losing Rondo is mostly just annoying.   Any other year, losing Rondo would be more difficult... but this team is stacked with guards and all of them are better scorers/shooters than Rondo. 
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: indeedproceed on February 11, 2013, 03:14:27 AM
Quote
KG is integral to the success of this team... especially at this point where we are deprived of bigs and our defense revolves around his skillset.  Losing KG at this point would be catastrophic.  Losing Rondo is mostly just annoying.   Any other year, losing Rondo would be more difficult... but this team is stacked with guards and all of them are better scorers/shooters than Rondo.

Id argue there is still a pretty small sample size here. Too small, in fact, to make a claim as bold (at least for me).

The point of bringing up KG is to show that a team can rally around a fallen leader. I don't think that's anything but apropos here.

And you speak of superstar performances, but Paul Pierce's triple double tonight in a triple overtime game seems like it ought to qualify, no? And the win streak is riddled with near losses, comeback wins against inferior teams, etc.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: JR99 on February 11, 2013, 03:50:26 AM
The labeling of reasonable or constructive criticisms and opinions as "Bashing" or "Hatred" has got to stop.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: celtics2 on February 11, 2013, 04:08:35 AM
Guess it stops when this 8-0 run gets back to 500.  May be he was part of the problem. Sure looks it.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on February 11, 2013, 04:48:38 AM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.

MONEY!

The team needed a jump start, it just sad that it had to be on Rondo's expense. But we still are not better without him.

Call Rondo a ball hog if you please, but most of his plays ends up him passing the ball to an open man. He doesnt overshoots and miss a lot, he finds open guys and the guys are shooting HORRENDOUS during the losing stretch.

Is it Rondo's fault when he finds Lee, Green and Jet wide open and can't make them? How many times was he able to find them wide open and couldn't hit. Is it his fault when he finds Bass open on a pick and pop and was not able to make the shot? Is it his fault that the team showed no effort in stretches of that 6 game losing streak? Is it he to blame when Paul had a very bad shooting slump? Yes he pounds the ball, but he ends up sucking the defense and finding open guys most of the time. The team is shooting well right now, comapre to the losing streak.

You can make the case that the team is better w/o Rondo, I can sure as heck make the case that if the guys we're hitting their WIDE OPEN shots when Rondo finds them, we'd probably 4th in the East right now.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Rtpas11 on February 11, 2013, 05:49:31 AM
Not at all... his shooting hasn't been good also. Maybe after All-Star Break he'll turn the corner or end up traded.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: cltc5 on February 11, 2013, 06:05:50 AM
When people stop saying that this team is done come playoffs, or we need playoffs rondo, then I think the Rondo bashing will stop.  Kinda hard to ignore the obvious.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 11, 2013, 06:12:38 AM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.

Boston has always had a tendency to win without Rondo, because our scorers step up.  Instead of having 4 scorers and a passer, you have 5 scorers.  The impact hasn't historically been that great.

I'm a little annoyed by so many people bringing up 2009 as an example of how Boston played "great" without KG.  It's forgetting the fact that Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were still allstar players at the time.  Rondo was coming into his own.  Perkins was at the height of his defensive powers.  We won games in spite of Glen Davis not because of him (I was extremely vocal about that at the time... Davis was the beneficiary of his teammates... KG's teammates were the beneficiary of him).  And in the playoffs, the loss of KG was brutal.  It took mighty otherworldly performances from Ray Allen and Rondo to even knock off the young Bulls in 7 games (including multiple overtime games)... a team that we DESTROYED the next year when we played them in the regular season with KG (28 point blowout on October 30th... 26 point blowout on December 12th)....  Despite the fact we had Ray and Pierce just shy of their prime, KG was the difference between being an pesky little playoff team who could barely scrape by a young Chicago team... to a legit contender that lost the championship by 4 points.

KG is integral to the success of this team... especially at this point where we are deprived of bigs and our defense revolves around his skillset.  Losing KG at this point would be catastrophic.  Losing Rondo is mostly just annoying.   Any other year, losing Rondo would be more difficult... but this team is stacked with guards and all of them are better scorers/shooters than Rondo.

THIS, plus I didn't think we would beat the heat even with rondo. I do think the celtics will miss rondo in the playoffs but I'm starting to question if i could possibly be wrong on that. I'm still extremely curious to see how this team performs in the playoffs without him.

If we look just as good or better then what? Again, KG is so much more important to this team *Now and 2009* than rondo is I just find comparing them a joke. Rondo was more important to last years team than this years team. Not every team benefits from having one guy *even as great as rondo* dominate the ball and this team clearly doesn't.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 11, 2013, 06:17:23 AM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.

Because statistically on the defensive end of the floor, having KG on (versus off) the floor is the difference between us being a top 5 defense, and us being a bottom 10 defense.

Our offence doesn't really get any better or worse overall when Rondo is on the court compared to when he is off the court, statistically.  On the other hand our defense is actually worse, statistically, when he is on the court.

This team is one that wins games with defense, but we are capable of scoring.  If we have a bad shooting night we can sometimes still overcome that with suffocating defense, but if we have a bad defensive night we are toast.

Also offensively Paul Pierce, statistically, is more valuable to us than Rondo.  When Pierce is not on the court our offense drops just as badly as our defense drops when KG sits. Pierce draws so much attention from the defense that it makes it easier for teammates to get open, and when he is running the plays teams cannot defend him assuming he will pass (as they do with Rondo) because Pierce to this day is still probably a top 10 offensive player in the NBA.

So if KG is our most valuable defensive player, and Pierce is our most valuable offensive player...where does that leave Rondo?

Rondo is an elite talent but basketball isn't all about talent, otherwise Darko Milicic would have been a superstar on a max contract.  Basketball is about what you do (not just what you CAN do). 

I hope Rondo see's the way we are playing now, and uses that as inspiration to change his offensive style so that it's more accomodating to the other guys on the team.  I also hope that Doc see's how capable our supporting cast is and reduces Rondo's minutes (to say 32-35 per game) so that he's not constnatly exausted and might actually have the energy left to play some defense.

This will make me happy :)
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 11, 2013, 06:26:46 AM
Quote
KG is integral to the success of this team... especially at this point where we are deprived of bigs and our defense revolves around his skillset.  Losing KG at this point would be catastrophic.  Losing Rondo is mostly just annoying.   Any other year, losing Rondo would be more difficult... but this team is stacked with guards and all of them are better scorers/shooters than Rondo.

Id argue there is still a pretty small sample size here. Too small, in fact, to make a claim as bold (at least for me).

The point of bringing up KG is to show that a team can rally around a fallen leader. I don't think that's anything but apropos here.

And you speak of superstar performances, but Paul Pierce's triple double tonight in a triple overtime game seems like it ought to qualify, no? And the win streak is riddled with near losses, comeback wins against inferior teams, etc.

Yes, but as the great Vin Diesel once said - "it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning". 

See, to me those close games are in a way even more impressive than the blowouts, because it's in those games that your resolve is tested.  When you are playing a bad team and they are kicking your butt, to you get embarassed and give up?  Do you get overly cocky and let down you guard?

Earlier in the season we were frequently finding ourselves in those same scenarios, but insteading of coming back and wining to close out the games we were giving them away.

Much as I do like Rondo as a fan, there were a lot of times where he REALLY frustrated me jacking up contested three point shots 10 seconds into the shot clock at the end of games, and unsurprisingly bricking a lot of them. 

Rondo is much like Josh Smith - both supremely talented players with questionable attitudes and decision making at critical times.  Very few players can stuff a stat sheet better then Rondo and Josh Smith, and yet very few can leave me frustrated the way they do sometimes.

See, I can live with Rondo taking a three at the end of a game, as long as it's the best (or only) shot available, he's wide open, and the shotclock is winding down.  Rondo should not, under ANY circumstances, shoot from behind the three point line when he has a defender all over him 10 second into the shot clock.  It's not his range.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 11, 2013, 06:28:45 AM
The rondo bashing should probably be doc rivers bashing tho.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 11, 2013, 06:37:41 AM
I am with Tommy, who has forgot more about Basketball than most people here will ever know, Rondo is a Hall of Famer.   Rondo is a real talent and this bashing is nonsense.  We will see how much guts this team has tonight with a back to back after those OTs.


Quote
basketball isn't all about talent, otherwise Darko Milicic

You lost all credibility on that one, don't cofuse size with talent.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: BballTim on February 11, 2013, 07:00:48 AM
Like the last poster said. People are not bashing Rondo. There calling it like it is, like it was, like some of the more insightful people were saying before Rondo went down.

 Hes a great tallent but his dominance of the ball and selfish attitude that he had to be the one to make the pass was not conductive to our offense and allowed other teams to better prepare for us defensivly.

  There's been plenty of posts about why the offense has been better without Rondo. The fact of the matter is that, for all the analysis of what was wrong with the Rondo-led offense and why it's superior now, we're no better offensively than we were when Rondo went down. Guys are working harder on getting out in transition and trying to get more easy buckets but overall we've seen no improvement, it's just selective viewing by people who read how much better the offense is online and then watch the games.

  If you look at just this season, our offense was significantly better when Rondo was on his assist streak (and obviously dominating the ball) than we are without him. If you look at past seasons, our offense has also been generally better when Rondo's healthy and running the offense. This wasn't the first time the team's offense has gone into a funk, but that's really all it was.
 
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: CoachBo on February 11, 2013, 07:05:45 AM
The labeling of reasonable or constructive criticisms and opinions as "Bashing" or "Hatred" has got to stop.

TP.

Really sad how many people worry more about Rondo than they do the Celtic franchise.

And revealing.

It may be that Rondo's game and its vagaries are a poor fit on this basketball team.

Doesn't mean the guy isn't talented. Means the guy's game - its strengths and its substantial warts, whether some of you want to admit it or not - doesn't fit with Pierce, KG, et al anymore.

As some of us have been saying for awhile.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: kozlodoev on February 11, 2013, 07:11:38 AM
This wasn't the first time the team's offense has gone into a funk, but that's really all it was.
No, it wasn't. The offense has changed considerably this year, growing into a Rondo-centric dribble fest which clearly wasn't getting out the best from the rest of the team.

It's a tad sad when the best thing your alleged floor leader has done for the team was to go out of commission, and people still believe he's the next great thing after sliced bread.

If he's gonna control the ball this much, Rondo he has to figure out how to make everyone better, which he's no longer doing. For some reason, he appears to think that the Celtics becoming "his team" is equivalent to having to dribble the ball to oblivion to give someone an open jump shot.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: CelticsFanNC on February 11, 2013, 07:55:45 AM
The labeling of reasonable or constructive criticisms and opinions as "Bashing" or "Hatred" has got to stop.



Really sad how many people worry more about Rondo than they do the Celtic franchise.

And revealing.

It may be that Rondo's game and its vagaries are a poor fit on this basketball team.

doesn't fit with Pierce, KG, et all anymore.

As some of us have been saying for awhile.

   I'm a big Rondo supporter.  With that said you have to be blind not to see this team has looked better in the past couple of week since the Rondo injury then it has all season.

   Still there are at least twice as many people here who are guilty of worrying more about Paul Pierce then the Celtics as there are those who do so about Rondo.  Ever hear Paul Pierce has to retire a Celtic no matter what??

  I root for laundry and have for years.  I say trade anybody and everybody if it makes us better.

  Also how much longer can this team build itself around two ancient(by NBA standards) future HOFers?   Even as good as we look now we're still probably a first round and out or second round at best IMO.

  One more point.  If this team's offense looks miles better now(and it does) then it did with Rondo running it that blames lies on Doc's shoulders, not Rondo's.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 11, 2013, 08:03:41 AM
One more point.  If this team's offense looks miles better now(and it does) then it did with Rondo running it that blames lies on Doc's shoulders, not Rondo's.

Code: [Select]
I agree. If Doc doesn't average a double-double a game or get at least 15 assists
Code: [Select]
tonight vs. the Bobcats, we need to trade him for someone like Tyreke.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: pearljammer10 on February 11, 2013, 08:11:04 AM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

Amen to that brother.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: SCeltic34 on February 11, 2013, 08:16:57 AM
We're just going to have to deal with these silly "team is better without Rondo" threads until the playoffs arrive.  That's when the true test comes, forget regular season games. If we can beat Miami without Rondo, then I will gladly concede that we are better without him.  But I have a feeling that a lot of people will finally shut up when they realize what Rondo brings to our team when it matters most.

These threads remind me of last year when idiotic Miami fans and other NBA fans thought that the Heat were better without Bosh since they smoked Indiana and went up 2-0 against the C's without him.  This isn't the same situation and of course the makeup of our team is entirely different, but such a claim was just as foolish and unfounded as the statement that "we're better off without Rondo".  Why some Celtics fans would rather go into the playoffs without a battle-tested, elite-level point guard who rebounds, gets into the paint, steps up his defense, and improves the play of his teammates, I will never know.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Roy H. on February 11, 2013, 08:20:24 AM
There are several classes of fans who are critical of Rondo:

1.  Those who don't like Rondo's attitude;
2.  Those who don't like Rondo's game / don't like the Celtics' offense when Rondo runs it;
3.  Those who like Rondo, but who want him to improve flaws in his game;
4.  Those who like Rondo, but who think he's expendable in the right trade.

I agree, those who "bash" him reflexively are undervaluing him and doing him a disservice.  However, I think there are a lot of folks with legitimate criticisms or ideas about how to make the team better in the present.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: scaryjerry on February 11, 2013, 08:29:53 AM
My biggest gripe is people wanting to trade him for a decent big to "win now"


LOL

Yeah way to ruin a franchise going forward for a .1% chance at a title.

He's improved his game every year....his style of play worked best in the last few years...why else would doc have been so adamant about it? They're learning this years team is different....he'll improve and make adjustments again.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Moranis on February 11, 2013, 08:40:00 AM
There are several classes of fans who are critical of Rondo:

1.  Those who don't like Rondo's attitude;
2.  Those who don't like Rondo's game / don't like the Celtics' offense when Rondo runs it;
3.  Those who like Rondo, but who want him to improve flaws in his game;
4.  Those who like Rondo, but who think he's expendable in the right trade.

I agree, those who "bash" him reflexively are undervaluing him and doing him a disservice.  However, I think there are a lot of folks with legitimate criticisms or ideas about how to make the team better in the present.
I think I fall into all 4 of those.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 11, 2013, 08:43:00 AM
There are several classes of fans who are critical of Rondo:

1.  Those who don't like Rondo's attitude;
2.  Those who don't like Rondo's game / don't like the Celtics' offense when Rondo runs it;
3.  Those who like Rondo, but who want him to improve flaws in his game;
4.  Those who like Rondo, but who think he's expendable in the right trade.

I agree, those who "bash" him reflexively are undervaluing him and doing him a disservice.  However, I think there are a lot of folks with legitimate criticisms or ideas about how to make the team better in the present.

Put me in category #3.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: BballTim on February 11, 2013, 08:44:09 AM
This wasn't the first time the team's offense has gone into a funk, but that's really all it was.
No, it wasn't. The offense has changed considerably this year, growing into a Rondo-centric dribble fest which clearly wasn't getting out the best from the rest of the team.

It's a tad sad when the best thing your alleged floor leader has done for the team was to go out of commission, and people still believe he's the next great thing after sliced bread.

If he's gonna control the ball this much, Rondo he has to figure out how to make everyone better, which he's no longer doing. For some reason, he appears to think that the Celtics becoming "his team" is equivalent to having to dribble the ball to oblivion to give someone an open jump shot.

  Yes, it was. Our best offense *this year* (and it's not even close) was early in the year when Rondo was getting 13 assists a game. We were top 10 in efficiency and top 5 in efg% right before December. Let me know when the post-Rondo offense gets to that level, or maybe just explain further how our current offense is superior to that.

Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Roy H. on February 11, 2013, 08:50:34 AM

  Yes, it was. Our best offense *this year* (and it's not even close) was early in the year when Rondo was getting 13 assists a game. We were top 10 in efficiency and top 5 in efg% right before December. Let me know when the post-Rondo offense gets to that level, or maybe just explain further how our current offense is superior to that.

Where can you find month-by-month efficiency splits?
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: BballTim on February 11, 2013, 08:51:47 AM
The labeling of reasonable or constructive criticisms and opinions as "Bashing" or "Hatred" has got to stop.

TP.

Really sad how many people worry more about Rondo than they do the Celtic franchise.

And revealing.

It may be that Rondo's game and its vagaries are a poor fit on this basketball team.

Doesn't mean the guy isn't talented. Means the guy's game - its strengths and its substantial warts, whether some of you want to admit it or not - doesn't fit with Pierce, KG, et al anymore.

As some of us have been saying for awhile.

  It's not that people worry more about Rondo than the franchise, it's that they realize the the team would be much better off in the playoffs with Rondo, just like they always are.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: twistedrico14 on February 11, 2013, 08:52:25 AM
I agree. Rondo is still one of the top 3 point guards in the league whether people want to admit it or not. 
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: BballTim on February 11, 2013, 08:53:36 AM

  Yes, it was. Our best offense *this year* (and it's not even close) was early in the year when Rondo was getting 13 assists a game. We were top 10 in efficiency and top 5 in efg% right before December. Let me know when the post-Rondo offense gets to that level, or maybe just explain further how our current offense is superior to that.

Where can you find month-by-month efficiency splits?

  http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/offensive-efficiency

  At the top of the table there's a calender, just pick a different date and see what they numbers were. Pretty cool.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: dark_lord on February 11, 2013, 08:58:40 AM
I agree. Rondo is still one of the top 3 point guards in the league whether people want to admit it or not.

id say he is top five without question, but top three could be debatable
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 11, 2013, 09:03:13 AM
just think the Celtics are more potent team, better spacing with FIVE men on the court that can hit a shot.

Rondo's poor shooting  hurts when, Collins is on the floor, Bass is cold,  and the rest of the role players like Lee , Jet, Green .aren't getting enough touchs due to  Rondo lazy, drag tail offensive play......pounding the precious offensive secs away , all the while letting the other teams defense get set up and stagnating the offensive flow to the game.

Until Rondo improve on the above flawed play...he should be called out for it....as should Doc  for letting his mess continue.

I like his attitude ,  resolve, and passing.......but that's not enough with the current team.....he needs to learn to shoot other than lay ups and wide open mid range.   He needs to learn to make a shot with somebody on  him.    Rondo is epic fail at end of most games and at free throw line...I cringe when he is fouled.  Unacceptable for a NBA point guard.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Fafnir on February 11, 2013, 09:11:13 AM

  Yes, it was. Our best offense *this year* (and it's not even close) was early in the year when Rondo was getting 13 assists a game. We were top 10 in efficiency and top 5 in efg% right before December. Let me know when the post-Rondo offense gets to that level, or maybe just explain further how our current offense is superior to that.

Where can you find month-by-month efficiency splits?

  http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/offensive-efficiency

  At the top of the table there's a calender, just pick a different date and see what they numbers were. Pretty cool.
That's a cumulative rating though, I just exported the basketball reference csv data and calculated it on a month to month basis:

              ORTG       DRTG
November      105.1      103.8
December      101.1      104.8
January       101.9      99.9
February      108.3      98.5
----------
With Rondo    103.0      103.9 (all games prior to acl)
Without Rondo 106.6      97.00 (7 games since his injury)
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Fafnir on February 11, 2013, 09:17:19 AM
just think the Celtics are more potent team, better spacing with FIVE men on the court that can hit a shot.
The problem the C's have is when they're playing against a good defense without Rondo we don't have a threat to penetrate and compromise the defense.

You're right having 4 or 5 shooters on the floor at all times really makes the spacing better. But when we don't have penetration we can get clamped down on like during the Heat game (or second half of Clippers/Denver games)
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: BballTim on February 11, 2013, 09:19:48 AM

  Yes, it was. Our best offense *this year* (and it's not even close) was early in the year when Rondo was getting 13 assists a game. We were top 10 in efficiency and top 5 in efg% right before December. Let me know when the post-Rondo offense gets to that level, or maybe just explain further how our current offense is superior to that.

Where can you find month-by-month efficiency splits?

  http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/offensive-efficiency

  At the top of the table there's a calender, just pick a different date and see what they numbers were. Pretty cool.
That's a cumulative rating though, I just exported the basketball reference csv data and calculated it on a month to month basis:

              ORTG       DRTG
November      105.1      103.8
December      101.1      104.8
January       101.9      99.9
February      108.3      98.5
----------
With Rondo    103.0      103.9 (all games prior to acl)
Without Rondo 106.6      97.00 (7 games since his injury)

  Those numbers look like they're different than what I'm seeing. But when I look at our ORtg for the year it's 102.5, I don't see how we could be above that both with and without Rondo.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Fafnir on February 11, 2013, 09:21:25 AM
Depends on what ORTG formula you use, I'm using Dean Oliver's with a .4 free throw multiplier like basketball reference does. It allowed me to match up several data points to confirm I typed things in correctly.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Moranis on February 11, 2013, 09:22:11 AM
just think the Celtics are more potent team, better spacing with FIVE men on the court that can hit a shot.
The problem the C's have is when they're playing against a good defense without Rondo we don't have a threat to penetrate and compromise the defense.

You're right having 4 or 5 shooters on the floor at all times really makes the spacing better. But when we don't have penetration we can get clamped down on like during the Heat game (or second half of Clippers/Denver games)
I'd rather just replace Rondo with a lesser talented PG overall, but one that is a better shooter, and some other asset that can help.  Right now Boston doesn't have a true PG on the roster, which causes the problem you are describing, but a true PG that is a better shooter would solve both of those issues.  A guy like Mike Conley, Jeff Teague, Goran Dragic, etc. would solve a lot of both of those problems.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Fafnir on February 11, 2013, 09:23:01 AM
I really think Paul Pierce has been underrated bell-weather guy for this team.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Fafnir on February 11, 2013, 09:24:43 AM
just think the Celtics are more potent team, better spacing with FIVE men on the court that can hit a shot.
The problem the C's have is when they're playing against a good defense without Rondo we don't have a threat to penetrate and compromise the defense.

You're right having 4 or 5 shooters on the floor at all times really makes the spacing better. But when we don't have penetration we can get clamped down on like during the Heat game (or second half of Clippers/Denver games)
I'd rather just replace Rondo with a lesser talented PG overall, but one that is a better shooter, and some other asset that can help.  Right now Boston doesn't have a true PG on the roster, which causes the problem you are describing, but a true PG that is a better shooter would solve both of those issues.  A guy like Mike Conley, Jeff Teague, Goran Dragic, etc. would solve a lot of both of those problems.
Maybe I have my doubts about that.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Fafnir on February 11, 2013, 09:27:55 AM
I really think Paul Pierce has been underrated bell-weather guy for this team.
Based on a rough average of his TRB% Pierce has put up approximately a 15.4 TRB% the past 7 games. Massively important for our win steak, KG is pulling down around a 17.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: dmopower on February 11, 2013, 10:01:03 AM
I'm in catagory 3 and 4

 I don't think we need to trade Rondo as he can adapt a little and be fine.

 But I would trade him for a tallented big. deffinetly one named D. Cousins.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: kozlodoev on February 11, 2013, 10:10:42 AM
Yes, it was. Our best offense *this year* (and it's not even close) was early in the year when Rondo was getting 13 assists a game. We were top 10 in efficiency and top 5 in efg% right before December. Let me know when the post-Rondo offense gets to that level, or maybe just explain further how our current offense is superior to that.
It has already gotten to that level. And beyond it.

And yes, our offense is superior: people actually get to touch the ball multiple times, which - believe it or not - leads to better shots.

Does it not trouble you that when our alleged team leader, who's allegedly one of top floor generals in the NBA goes down, goes down, three key rotation players coincidentally start playing better?

And it's not "playing-over-their-head" better, it's simply playing at a level at which we know they could when we signed them. Now you can blame people for not stepping up early in the season -- but I don't think Rondo's leadership and ability to put other people in position to win (all reportedly key qualities of what people around here like to refer to as "true PGs") can come out of this without a dent.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: ssspence on February 11, 2013, 10:22:13 AM
I don't bash Rondo, but I don't agree that assimilating his mood to Bird, Russell, KG is appropriate.

These are intense players, yes. They could press buttons, yes. But they also know how to lead. They know how to prop guys up when the time is right. They knew how to get the best out of teammates. Their peers look up to them, admire them.

Rondo's not there yet in the locker room or on the court. He's still immature in a variety of ways. He's still selfish in a variety of ways. He takes plays or even games off... mails 'em in. He pouts. He's passive-aggressive with teammates. Refs hate him because he's too bitter in arguing calls. Meanwhile, the other team is score in the other direction.

The organization -- including Pierce and KG -- has gone out of its way to try to make him a / the leader, and so far he's failed that test -- concerning considering he's in his 7th year.

Is he tough? Yes. Is he a leader? No. And this element -- considering how much he dictates the Cs success when he's on the floor -- is at least in part responsible for the more energized basketball you're seeing from the Cs since his injury.

I see no fault in calling this out. I, for one, won't homer my way into thinking that Rondo is a better contributor, leader or player than he actually is. 
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: angryguy77 on February 11, 2013, 10:23:23 AM
Got to love short memories. Rondo is so terrible that Phil Jackson and Spolstra put Kobe and Lebron on him for absolutely no reason.

People are going to learn a very hard reality about Rondo once the playoffs start.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: kozlodoev on February 11, 2013, 10:27:21 AM
People are going to learn a very hard reality about Rondo once the playoffs start.
Yup, and we would have won it in 2010 if we had Kendrick Perkins, right? :P
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: angryguy77 on February 11, 2013, 10:32:04 AM
People are going to learn a very hard reality about Rondo once the playoffs start.
Yup, and we would have won it in 2010 if we had Kendrick Perkins, right? :P



you can't compare reg season rondo to playoff rondo. They are two completely different animals. Why do you think teams try so hard to shut him down in the postseason?
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Moranis on February 11, 2013, 10:33:34 AM
People are going to learn a very hard reality about Rondo once the playoffs start.
Yup, and we would have won it in 2010 if we had Kendrick Perkins, right? :P



you can't compare reg season rondo to playoff rondo. They are two completely different animals. Why do you think teams try so hard to shut him down?
because his dribble pounding for 20 seconds was essentially the offense of the team the last few seasons.  If Boston had better ball movement and passing, they wouldn't try so hard to shut him down because doing so wouldn't cause the offense to disappear.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Levis107 on February 11, 2013, 10:37:25 AM
Are we people too short sighted that Rondo is an integral part of this team? Even doc, danny, PP and KG have stipulated this in interviews?

We only can see that:

1. He is moody (although if you look at it Bird, russel hell even KG are moody);
2. He is a ball-hog (Doc's system dictated that he get the ball almost all of the time - doc is a stubborn goat who likes to executes plays which are at times stale already);

But look at rondo as a player, I am not a Rondo apologist - i sometimes am also frustrated by the way Rondo and the Celtics play - but I believe that we need him, and the team needs him.

the kid has heart and once he gets back he'll even be a stud for the celtics. Mark my words, If we traded him and he excels with the other team (think Tony Allen) Some people here will say "Man I wish we still had Rondo";

What are Doc, Danny, Pierce and KG supposed to say? They're not going to bash their own teammate.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: angryguy77 on February 11, 2013, 10:39:48 AM
People are going to learn a very hard reality about Rondo once the playoffs start.
Yup, and we would have won it in 2010 if we had Kendrick Perkins, right? :P



you can't compare reg season rondo to playoff rondo. They are two completely different animals. Why do you think teams try so hard to shut him down?
because his dribble pounding for 20 seconds was essentially the offense of the team the last few seasons.  If Boston had better ball movement and passing, they wouldn't try so hard to shut him down because doing so wouldn't cause the offense to disappear.

that's such an over-exaggeration I don't even know where to start.

We have a different kind of offense than we did before, it's working well for now, but teams will eventually adjust their defense to it. I hope I'm wrong, the next road trip will be very telling...
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Fafnir on February 11, 2013, 10:48:06 AM
We have a different kind of offense than we did before, it's working well for now, but teams will eventually adjust their defense to it. I hope I'm wrong, the next road trip will be very telling...
Yeah it will.

Terry is getting some more shots and is making them at a similar rate he has all season (which is a good rate but not spectacular)

Green is getting a more minutes at PF with out Sullinger and due to whom we're playing at times. He's making the most of it.

Pierce most of all has bounced back, he was killing us on both ends during the losing streak. Just a lot of poor shooting nights and slow defense. (Hawks basically had Pierce's man shoot a 3 during their comeback)

Will the team be able survive if Pierce has another stretch where he doesn't have any lift and can't hit shot? Lee's shot worse this stretch, is that just a normal slump or is he getting worse shots overall. Barbosa is still a roller coster as well. Most of all does our defense stay at an elite level, because that's where it has to be and wasn't early in the season.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: kozlodoev on February 11, 2013, 10:55:39 AM
People are going to learn a very hard reality about Rondo once the playoffs start.
Yup, and we would have won it in 2010 if we had Kendrick Perkins, right? :P
you can't compare reg season rondo to playoff rondo. They are two completely different animals. Why do you think teams try so hard to shut him down in the postseason?
Shut him down? I haven't seen teams try to shut him down -- I've seen teams trying to shut everyone else down and daring Rondo to beat them by putting a guy on him that can help off.

Also, the reference to the 2010 seasons was intended to show that the playoffs are only likely to give ammunition to people who are (even now) willing to argue that the absence of Rajon Rondo is the only thing that stopped us from going deep.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: angryguy77 on February 11, 2013, 11:12:58 AM
People are going to learn a very hard reality about Rondo once the playoffs start.
Yup, and we would have won it in 2010 if we had Kendrick Perkins, right? :P
you can't compare reg season rondo to playoff rondo. They are two completely different animals. Why do you think teams try so hard to shut him down in the postseason?
Shut him down? I haven't seen teams try to shut him down -- I've seen teams trying to shut everyone else down and daring Rondo to beat them by putting a guy on him that can help off.

Also, the reference to the 2010 seasons was intended to show that the playoffs are only likely to give ammunition to people who are (even now) willing to argue that the absence of Rajon Rondo is the only thing that stopped us from going deep.

Yes they try to shut him down. Why do you think they put lebron and kobe on him? They needed to stop him from breaking their d down. He's always been a force in the playoffs and has engineered some great wins.

He has his weaknesses no doubt, but I don't understand how people forget what he has done in the past.

I don't recall one single member of this board saying that we had a better chance to beat the Heat after Wade took him out.

Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: kozlodoev on February 11, 2013, 11:19:34 AM
Yes they try to shut him down. Why do you think they put lebron and kobe on him? They needed to stop him from breaking their d down. He's always been a force in the playoffs and has engineered some great wins.
Um, yeah, I almost believed that until I actually remembered I watched the games.

They put Kobe and Lebron on Rondo so that they can play 5 feet off of him and help out on Garnett and Pierce. Coincidentally, both Kobe and especially Lebron are fantastic help defenders.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: RAcker on February 11, 2013, 11:20:22 AM
I don't think that most people are simply intending to bash, rather I think most are pointing out things that are now glaringly obvious about Rondo's game.  I love the guy, but the criticisms are legit.

Take Rondo's roll from 2008-2010 and compare to now.  The more he has dominated the ball (and thus ball movement has stopped) the more the team has struggled to score. I don't think that is a slap on Rondo as much as it is an obvious thing that Danny and Doc will have to discuss going forward with the team they have constructed.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 11, 2013, 11:28:04 AM
why put cart before horse, about what all a selfish playing Rondo might accomplish ...I F....the Celtics were to make the playoffs.


who cares about playoff, thats just an excuse to hid the fact Rondo was killingbthis teams mojo.if a Celtics led team falls apart in the regular season , has no confidence, and struggling to even beat the worst teams in the league with Rondo pounding the ball endlessly and putting off his teammates .......causing them to play bad.


but...but...but....whine....wine ......this isn't the play offs, and I' m happy to see the Celtic' s playing  inspired team ball.



if the Celtics are better without Rondo,  so be it......be happy....


maybe Rondo can learn not to coast, learn to shoot , play defense the whole game,  lose his big head, .......maybe  then we should keep him.......

otherwise......trade him soon as he is Heathy
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: BballTim on February 11, 2013, 12:26:58 PM
Yes, it was. Our best offense *this year* (and it's not even close) was early in the year when Rondo was getting 13 assists a game. We were top 10 in efficiency and top 5 in efg% right before December. Let me know when the post-Rondo offense gets to that level, or maybe just explain further how our current offense is superior to that.
It has already gotten to that level. And beyond it.

And yes, our offense is superior: people actually get to touch the ball multiple times, which - believe it or not - leads to better shots.

Does it not trouble you that when our alleged team leader, who's allegedly one of top floor generals in the NBA goes down, goes down, three key rotation players coincidentally start playing better?

And it's not "playing-over-their-head" better, it's simply playing at a level at which we know they could when we signed them. Now you can blame people for not stepping up early in the season -- but I don't think Rondo's leadership and ability to put other people in position to win (all reportedly key qualities of what people around here like to refer to as "true PGs") can come out of this without a dent.

  It's obviously not a coincidence that some of the rotation players started playing better when we had some injuries. There are multiple reasons for this. Rondo being out means, obviously, that other players will have a bigger role in the offense. That's better for the individual players productivity. Doc's also simplified the offense.

  Also, these guys now have more consistent roles on the team and more consistent minutes. We haven't really had set rotations or lineups all year. Sometimes Lee (for instance) would play 10 minutes, sometimes he would play 30. Sometimes he's playing with Rondo, sometimes he's not, and his role would vary based on that.
 
  It's difficult for players to excel without steady roles and steady minutes and it's difficult for teams to play well with constantly changing lineups. Doc would have resolved this issue late in the season (as he has in the past) where he tightens up his rotations to 8-9 players instead of 12 or so. We probably would have seen much of the gelling we're seeing now after that happened.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: droopdog7 on February 11, 2013, 12:32:19 PM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.

Boston has always had a tendency to win without Rondo, because our scorers step up.  Instead of having 4 scorers and a passer, you have 5 scorers.  The impact hasn't historically been that great.

I'm a little annoyed by so many people bringing up 2009 as an example of how Boston played "great" without KG.  It's forgetting the fact that Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were still allstar players at the time.  Rondo was coming into his own.  Perkins was at the height of his defensive powers.  We won games in spite of Glen Davis not because of him (I was extremely vocal about that at the time... Davis was the beneficiary of his teammates... KG's teammates were the beneficiary of him).  And in the playoffs, the loss of KG was brutal.  It took mighty otherworldly performances from Ray Allen and Rondo to even knock off the young Bulls in 7 games (including multiple overtime games)... a team that we DESTROYED the next year when we played them in the regular season with KG (28 point blowout on October 30th... 26 point blowout on December 12th)....  Despite the fact we had Ray and Pierce just shy of their prime, KG was the difference between being an pesky little playoff team who could barely scrape by a young Chicago team... to a legit contender that lost the championship by 4 points.

KG is integral to the success of this team... especially at this point where we are deprived of bigs and our defense revolves around his skillset.  Losing KG at this point would be catastrophic.  Losing Rondo is mostly just annoying.   Any other year, losing Rondo would be more difficult... but this team is stacked with guards and all of them are better scorers/shooters than Rondo.
In 09 the C's lost to an inferior magic team.  The next year we dominated them with KG.  It's high comedy to think that we were in any way shape or form better without KG.

In this case, we just need to see what happens over the 38 games without rondo.  Let's not overreact one way or the other.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Donoghus on February 11, 2013, 12:40:02 PM
I'm guessing the Rondo bashing will stop around the same time the Rondacolytes cease chasing people across threads that say anything that could possily be construed as Rondo criticism. 
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: kozlodoev on February 11, 2013, 12:41:29 PM
Yes, it was. Our best offense *this year* (and it's not even close) was early in the year when Rondo was getting 13 assists a game. We were top 10 in efficiency and top 5 in efg% right before December. Let me know when the post-Rondo offense gets to that level, or maybe just explain further how our current offense is superior to that.
It has already gotten to that level. And beyond it.

And yes, our offense is superior: people actually get to touch the ball multiple times, which - believe it or not - leads to better shots.

Does it not trouble you that when our alleged team leader, who's allegedly one of top floor generals in the NBA goes down, goes down, three key rotation players coincidentally start playing better?

And it's not "playing-over-their-head" better, it's simply playing at a level at which we know they could when we signed them. Now you can blame people for not stepping up early in the season -- but I don't think Rondo's leadership and ability to put other people in position to win (all reportedly key qualities of what people around here like to refer to as "true PGs") can come out of this without a dent.

  It's obviously not a coincidence that some of the rotation players started playing better when we had some injuries. There are multiple reasons for this. Rondo being out means, obviously, that other players will have a bigger role in the offense. That's better for the individual players productivity. Doc's also simplified the offense.

  Also, these guys now have more consistent roles on the team and more consistent minutes. We haven't really had set rotations or lineups all year. Sometimes Lee (for instance) would play 10 minutes, sometimes he would play 30. Sometimes he's playing with Rondo, sometimes he's not, and his role would vary based on that.
 
  It's difficult for players to excel without steady roles and steady minutes and it's difficult for teams to play well with constantly changing lineups. Doc would have resolved this issue late in the season (as he has in the past) where he tightens up his rotations to 8-9 players instead of 12 or so. We probably would have seen much of the gelling we're seeing now after that happened.
I thought so. There are multiple reasons, and neither of them is Rondo pounding the ball. Marvelous.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: Smokeeye123 on February 11, 2013, 01:18:24 PM
Im guessing the bashing will stop when we trade Rondo for a legit Center at the deadline and make it to the finals this year.  :P
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: BballTim on February 11, 2013, 01:31:25 PM
Yes, it was. Our best offense *this year* (and it's not even close) was early in the year when Rondo was getting 13 assists a game. We were top 10 in efficiency and top 5 in efg% right before December. Let me know when the post-Rondo offense gets to that level, or maybe just explain further how our current offense is superior to that.
It has already gotten to that level. And beyond it.

And yes, our offense is superior: people actually get to touch the ball multiple times, which - believe it or not - leads to better shots.

Does it not trouble you that when our alleged team leader, who's allegedly one of top floor generals in the NBA goes down, goes down, three key rotation players coincidentally start playing better?

And it's not "playing-over-their-head" better, it's simply playing at a level at which we know they could when we signed them. Now you can blame people for not stepping up early in the season -- but I don't think Rondo's leadership and ability to put other people in position to win (all reportedly key qualities of what people around here like to refer to as "true PGs") can come out of this without a dent.

  It's obviously not a coincidence that some of the rotation players started playing better when we had some injuries. There are multiple reasons for this. Rondo being out means, obviously, that other players will have a bigger role in the offense. That's better for the individual players productivity. Doc's also simplified the offense.

  Also, these guys now have more consistent roles on the team and more consistent minutes. We haven't really had set rotations or lineups all year. Sometimes Lee (for instance) would play 10 minutes, sometimes he would play 30. Sometimes he's playing with Rondo, sometimes he's not, and his role would vary based on that.
 
  It's difficult for players to excel without steady roles and steady minutes and it's difficult for teams to play well with constantly changing lineups. Doc would have resolved this issue late in the season (as he has in the past) where he tightens up his rotations to 8-9 players instead of 12 or so. We probably would have seen much of the gelling we're seeing now after that happened.
I thought so. There are multiple reasons, and neither of them is Rondo pounding the ball. Marvelous.

  I can see why you're looking for it as it's the only reason that ever occurred to you. I would have thought that Doc changing the offense and them having a bigger role on the offense would have covered whatever you think the "Rondo effect" on them was.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 11, 2013, 01:46:21 PM
I'm guessing the Rondo bashing will stop around the same time the Rondacolytes cease chasing people across threads that say anything that could possily be construed as Rondo criticism.

Amen bro
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: kozlodoev on February 11, 2013, 01:53:58 PM
I can see why you're looking for it as it's the only reason that ever occurred to you. I would have thought that Doc changing the offense and them having a bigger role on the offense would have covered whatever you think the "Rondo effect" on them was.
What I said was that I don't think Rondo's leadership and ability to put other people in position to win can come out of this without a dent.

This statement doesn't imply that what you call the "Rondo effect" is the only or even the major reason for what's going on. But it is a part of it, whether you like it or not.

Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 11, 2013, 02:03:45 PM
It does seem strange the type of argumentative tactics Ive seen being used here when criticizing Rondo. We went (I think) 10-1 without KG, but we never thought we were better without KG, and bought that faith wholesale because of back credit accumulated. But we never brought up KG's lackluster games for parts of the 08 playoffs, never used the recent success as justification that KG was expendable or holding the team back, because he's Kevin Garnett, and we knew he was a critical leader who was the very bedrock of the team.

Rondo doesn't have KG's spotless reputation or his MVP pedigree, Rondo's a unique player whose game and reputation does have worts, and maybe that's why we're so quick to use this win streak as a justification. But the parrellels are there; Rondo is argumentably our most talented player, is indisputably a critical leader in the lockerroom, and is an important piece to the very bedrock of the current incarnation of the franchise. He's earned that.

And the reason why the argument is flawed is the same; the team has seen too much greatness, too much success with Rondo, and he's been so good that a 7 game win streak is a paltry sample size as proof positive that the team is 'better off without Rondo'. It should be dismissed out of hand, and no amount of wins between now and the All-star break can tip the scales to justify trading Rondo for anything other than his full value. As Chuck was once wont to say, 'Anything else, would be uncivilized'.

You can't compare losing KG to losing rondo. KG is heads and shoulders more important to the celtics than rondo will ever be. Also its not just the win streak its how we've played during it. This particular team has looked better without rondo than with him. Not talking about last years team or the one before that. I'm talking about this particular group of guys. I'm just calling it how i see it.

And why can't you compare them? Because KG is KG? Rondo's absence caused players who had been underperforming to play harder, the team gelled around the weakness, like a herd of Buffalo protecting an injured member. The same thing happened with Kg. glen Davis was kind of a big deal for a while there, and ultimately you can easily point to 2009 as the year that made BBD resent the 'shadow' he was playing under. Courtney Lee, similarly, was reported to be unhappy with his role wih Rondo, and Jason Terry hadnt yet found his rhythm.

It's the same thing, just one guy is unimpeachable because he's Kevin Garnett.

And the conclusion should be the same; even if the team can come together and play inspired ball for stretches, it doesn't mean we're better off without Rondo. It might just mean some guys needed a kick in the arse to play up to their ability.

Boston has always had a tendency to win without Rondo, because our scorers step up.  Instead of having 4 scorers and a passer, you have 5 scorers.  The impact hasn't historically been that great.

I'm a little annoyed by so many people bringing up 2009 as an example of how Boston played "great" without KG.  It's forgetting the fact that Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were still allstar players at the time.  Rondo was coming into his own.  Perkins was at the height of his defensive powers.  We won games in spite of Glen Davis not because of him (I was extremely vocal about that at the time... Davis was the beneficiary of his teammates... KG's teammates were the beneficiary of him).  And in the playoffs, the loss of KG was brutal.  It took mighty otherworldly performances from Ray Allen and Rondo to even knock off the young Bulls in 7 games (including multiple overtime games)... a team that we DESTROYED the next year when we played them in the regular season with KG (28 point blowout on October 30th... 26 point blowout on December 12th)....  Despite the fact we had Ray and Pierce just shy of their prime, KG was the difference between being an pesky little playoff team who could barely scrape by a young Chicago team... to a legit contender that lost the championship by 4 points.

KG is integral to the success of this team... especially at this point where we are deprived of bigs and our defense revolves around his skillset.  Losing KG at this point would be catastrophic.  Losing Rondo is mostly just annoying.   Any other year, losing Rondo would be more difficult... but this team is stacked with guards and all of them are better scorers/shooters than Rondo.
In 09 the C's lost to an inferior magic team.  The next year we dominated them with KG.  It's high comedy to think that we were in any way shape or form better without KG.

In this case, we just need to see what happens over the 38 games without rondo.  Let's not overreact one way or the other.

People can call 8-0 a small sample size and it is... but the phenomena of Boston winning games without Rondo isn't really new.  I've been bringing it up for a couple years now.  Pierce generally was the one who stepped up.

There was an 8 game stretch a while back with Rondo out and Pierce stepped up:

1/20 (LOSS) 12 points, 6 assists, 3 rebounds, 2 steals, 2 blocks
1/22 (Win) 34 points, 10 assists, 8 rebounds, 3 steals
1/23 (win) 19 points, 7 assists, 5 rebounds
1/26 (win) 24 points, 10 assists, 6 rebounds, 1 block
1/27 (win) 28 points, 8 assists, 10 rebounds, 3 steals,2  blocks
1/29 (loss) 18 points, 5 assists, 6 rebounds
1/31 (win) 20 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds, 3 steals
2/1 (win) 17 points, 8 assists, 6 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 block
4/18 (win) 29 points, 14 assists, 5 rebounds, 2 steals

            Pierce usually steps up his game with Rondo out... which makes sense since the ball pretty much flowed through him his entire career up until late 2009.

Another example: 5/1 (win) 36 points, 14 rebounds, 4 assists.

... anyone surprised that Pierce put up 27 points, 14 rebounds and 14 assists vs Denver?  He's always been our 2nd more important player.  KG has always been our MVP.  And Rondo has always been a fantastic player who was incredibly overrated by some of Boston's fans.  He's got a great skillset and he's a bonified all-star... but our offense survives without him.  He's not as integral to this team as KG or Pierce.  And this year we have the added benefit of additional scorers like Lee, Terry and Barbosa who can ease the blow of losing Rondo... not to mention the defensive improvement of a Lee and Bradley back-court.  It makes sense why we are holding down the fort without our 3rd best player.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 11, 2013, 02:11:38 PM
The labeling of reasonable or constructive criticisms and opinions as "Bashing" or "Hatred" has got to stop.

TP.

Really sad how many people worry more about Rondo than they do the Celtic franchise.

And revealing.

It may be that Rondo's game and its vagaries are a poor fit on this basketball team.

Doesn't mean the guy isn't talented. Means the guy's game - its strengths and its substantial warts, whether some of you want to admit it or not - doesn't fit with Pierce, KG, et al anymore.

As some of us have been saying for awhile.
I'm just going to cut and paste what I said about this last year: 

I've been called a "hater" by many ignorant fans on this forum.  I love Rondo.  He's my 2nd favorite player to watch... but I agree people have an unrealistic perception of him.  He's a fantastic player, but there are better point guards in this league.  Chris Paul is better, for example.  I don't even feel it's debatable.  Still... by taking this stance, my fellow Celtic fans think I'm a traitor. 

I was reading an article on the HBO series "Girls" the other day.  It's a good show.  It has made me laugh several times.  It's not perfect, but I appreciate it.  There's been a ton of internet backlash about it.  A lot of the backlash revolves around some ridiculous nepotism claims.  A lot of people "hate" it for petty reasons.  I was reading the comments section in the article and a user named Homo_Erectus really summed up the culture behind this mentality:

Quote

Haven’t seen the episode yet, though it’s DVR’d. But I’ll tell you why there’s a backlash…

Because this is THE AGE OF HYPERBOLE. The internet has ushered in an era where everything is the “best”, “worst”, “greatest”, “stupidest”, “genius”, “most moronic”, etc.

If we aren’t totally in love with something then we must hate it, right?

Few have any self moderation, and too many have absolutely NO sense of perspective. “You said it was awesome and I watched it and it wasn’t awesome, therefore it’s terrible!”

I think he absolutely hit the nail on the head here.  We live in "THE AGE OF HYPERBOLE".  If I don't think Rondo is the "best" that must mean I think he's the "worst", right?  That kind of thinking needs to end.  I love Pierce, but at no point did I consider him as good as LeBron James.  That doesn't mean I'm a Pierce hater.  Have some perspective.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 11, 2013, 02:21:51 PM
I was reading an article on the HBO series "Girls" the other day.  It's a good show.  It has made me laugh several times.  It's not perfect, but I appreciate it.  There's been a ton of internet backlash about it.  A lot of the backlash revolves around some ridiculous nepotism claims.  A lot of people "hate" it for petty reasons.  I was reading the comments section in the article and a user named Homo_Erectus really summed up the culture behind this mentality:

Quote

Haven’t seen the episode yet, though it’s DVR’d. But I’ll tell you why there’s a backlash…

Because this is THE AGE OF HYPERBOLE. The internet has ushered in an era where everything is the “best”, “worst”, “greatest”, “stupidest”, “genius”, “most moronic”, etc.

If we aren’t totally in love with something then we must hate it, right?

Few have any self moderation, and too many have absolutely NO sense of perspective. “You said it was awesome and I watched it and it wasn’t awesome, therefore it’s terrible!”

I think he absolutely hit the nail on the head here.  We live in "THE AGE OF HYPERBOLE".  If I don't think Rondo is the "best" that must mean I think he's the "worst", right?  That kind of thinking needs to end.  I love Pierce, but at no point did I consider him as good as LeBron James.  That doesn't mean I'm a Pierce hater.  Have some perspective.

THE AGE OF HYPERBOLE is a hyperbolic statement itself.  People have always gravitated to extremes, because it's easier than nuance.  The adjective becomes the argument.  Only thing the internet's done is give us a forum to exchange our hyperbolic positions faster and to more people.  Maybe there's some element of oneupsmanship on top of that, but the tendency isn't remotely a new one.


On the main topic, I don't really like the labeling stuff either, not because of the negativity but because it polarizes everything.  Rondo doesn't have to be either the best point guard in the league or a self-centered ballhog who drags the team down.  Plenty of gray area there.

How about this - we aren't better off without Rondo, but we can sure learn some ways to be better off with him, and maybe win some games in the process.  Let's enjoy the ride while it lasts and hope we can lay the foundation for a better team when he returns.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: OsirusCeltics on February 11, 2013, 02:23:33 PM
Rondo criticism means rondo bashing? And why does it have to stop? If people feel like the celtics are better without rondo that's their opinion. I don't think we're better without him per say but I think we're better without him dominating the ball tho.

Sadly the only way that was going to stop was the exact way it did, by rondo going down with a season ending injury. That's more on doc than anything. He had the players to make it work, he just wasn't making it work. Another example of doc being overrated.

Wow almost verbatim of what I was gonna say
Thanks you saved me making a post, TP
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: snowball on February 11, 2013, 02:32:27 PM
PFFF TO RONDO AND HIS ASSIST PADDING
NO MOMENTUM GAME

CELTICS BETTER WITHOUT HIM
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: RJ87 on February 11, 2013, 02:33:08 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I'm getting to a point now where I hope Rondo gets. I think he deserves to play for a fanbase that actually appreciates what he brings to the table at some point in his career. Things go wrong, its Rondo's fault.  Things go well, everyone else gets the credit. 

Some people here claim Rondo is "overrated" around here. The funny thing is, if you go to other SB Nation sites, his game is pretty well respected. Its mostly around CelticsBlog that he ges beat down and scapegoated so much.

Since he went down, certain guys have stepped up - namely Paul. If we had this version of Paul since the beginning of the season,  our record would be better than it is. Jeff Green has been more consistent. These things are not within Rondo's control, but he gets most of the blame.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: kozlodoev on February 11, 2013, 02:40:53 PM
Some people here claim Rondo is "overrated" around here. The funny thing is, if you go to other SB Nation sites, his game is pretty well respected. Its mostly around CelticsBlog that he ges beat down and scapegoated so much.
It's not funny. There are two things people don't understand:

(1) The fact that his game is respected around the league makes it possible to get some real value in a trade. As in, a player that's at least as good as Rondo (believe it or not, those exist in the NBA).

(2) The world (or the Boston Celtics) doesn't end if you trade Rondo.

So yeah, people who ignore (1) and think (2) is false clearly overrate Rondo.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 11, 2013, 02:58:49 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I'm getting to a point now where I hope Rondo gets. I think he deserves to play for a fanbase that actually appreciates what he brings to the table at some point in his career.
Careful, now... there's nothing different happening here than what was happening with Ray Allen. Constant whining from the fanbase about his streaks.  Constant undermining of his importance to our offense.  Constant hypothetical trade threads.  Furthermore, the team was openly shopping him constantly and even thought they had traded him last year. 

Then after we benched him for an unproven guard, signed Jason Terry and Courtney Lee and effectively eliminated his role... he decides to play in a contender who needs him and half this forum acts like he's the biggest snake in the world.  If Rondo bails on us for a team that "appreciates" him more (sounds like the Lakers covet him), hopefully you forgive him as much as fans here forgave Ray Ray.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: RJ87 on February 11, 2013, 03:22:23 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I'm getting to a point now where I hope Rondo gets. I think he deserves to play for a fanbase that actually appreciates what he brings to the table at some point in his career.
Careful, now... there's nothing different happening here than what was happening with Ray Allen. Constant whining from the fanbase about his streaks.  Constant undermining of his importance to our offense.  Constant hypothetical trade threads.  Furthermore, the team was openly shopping him constantly and even thought they had traded him last year. 

Then after we benched him for an unproven guard, signed Jason Terry and Courtney Lee and effectively eliminated his role... he decides to play in a contender who needs him and half this forum acts like he's the biggest snake in the world.  If Rondo bails on us for a team that "appreciates" him more (sounds like the Lakers covet him), hopefully you forgive him as much as fans here forgave Ray Ray.

He's already disliked by a nice portion of his own fanbase, so I already forgive the guy for when he decides to leave Boston.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: StartOrien on February 11, 2013, 03:27:01 PM
Rondo bashing has brought me to the other side of the pendulum.

Used to be someone who thought Rondo was a little overrated, or a 'hater' in chatroom terms.

Now people have gone too far. And treating him like he's an average point guard, and not a guy who was outright murderous in the playoffs.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: RJ87 on February 11, 2013, 03:27:58 PM
Some people here claim Rondo is "overrated" around here. The funny thing is, if you go to other SB Nation sites, his game is pretty well respected. Its mostly around CelticsBlog that he ges beat down and scapegoated so much.
It's not funny. There are two things people don't understand:

(1) The fact that his game is respected around the league makes it possible to get some real value in a trade. As in, a player that's at least as good as Rondo (believe it or not, those exist in the NBA).

(2) The world (or the Boston Celtics) doesn't end if you trade Rondo.

So yeah, people who ignore (1) and think (2) is false clearly overrate Rondo.

"Believe it or not, those exist in the NBA."

I can't really respond the way I want because it will probably get me banned, but I will say this - you're pretty condescending and its unnecessary.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: RJ87 on February 11, 2013, 03:41:38 PM
Rondo bashing has brought me to the other side of the pendulum.

Used to be someone who thought Rondo was a little overrated, or a 'hater' in chatroom terms.

Now people have gone too far. And treating him like he's an average point guard, and not a guy who was outright murderous in the playoffs.

And I think that's the heart of the "Rondo's overrated" claim. Are there people who overvalue him? Yes. That can be said for a lot of players. If you calmly and respectfully talk to Rondo fans, a lot of them - such as myself - don't think he's perfect. As I've said myself, I believe he's a great building block, but not good enough to be the centerpiece of rebuild. But there's an overwhelming sense of negativity towards him so it makes a lot of people defensive.  There's this desire to devalue what he does bring to this team and undermine what he's accomplished.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: kozlodoev on February 11, 2013, 03:56:08 PM
Some people here claim Rondo is "overrated" around here. The funny thing is, if you go to other SB Nation sites, his game is pretty well respected. Its mostly around CelticsBlog that he ges beat down and scapegoated so much.
It's not funny. There are two things people don't understand:

(1) The fact that his game is respected around the league makes it possible to get some real value in a trade. As in, a player that's at least as good as Rondo (believe it or not, those exist in the NBA).

(2) The world (or the Boston Celtics) doesn't end if you trade Rondo.

So yeah, people who ignore (1) and think (2) is false clearly overrate Rondo.

"Believe it or not, those exist in the NBA."

I can't really respond the way I want because it will probably get me banned, but I will say this - you're pretty condescending and its unnecessary.
This whole thread, starting with its title, is way more condescending to people that refuse to worship Rondo. I find answering in kind pretty necessary.

I can be reasonable, cite examples, and provide a well-argued point (and in fact I have, on multiple occasions) -- but it's less fun, and just as futile where changing people's mind is concerned.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: celtics2 on February 11, 2013, 03:56:26 PM
Are we people too short sighted that Rondo is an integral part of this team? Even doc, danny, PP and KG have stipulated this in interviews?

We only can see that:

1. He is moody (although if you look at it Bird, russel hell even KG are moody);
2. He is a ball-hog (Doc's system dictated that he get the ball almost all of the time - doc is a stubborn goat who likes to executes plays which are at times stale already);

But look at rondo as a player, I am not a Rondo apologist - i sometimes am also frustrated by the way Rondo and the Celtics play - but I believe that we need him, and the team needs him.

the kid has heart and once he gets back he'll even be a stud for the celtics. Mark my words, If we traded him and he excels with the other team (think Tony Allen) Some people here will say "Man I wish we still had Rondo";

 If he couldn't do it on 2 legs how's he going to do it on 1 1/2?
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 11, 2013, 04:00:09 PM
if your team can't get to the playoff..... what's the point of what use to be with a different set of players.....that was then this is now.... freedom ball is not perfect....but it beats losing and watching the Celtics crumble under Rondos Hog Ball...the team was self imploding with the Rondo / Doc driven  program......Maybe it doesn't last but for now the CeltIcs have pulled together and things don't look so bleak........
sharing the ball looks so much better....even if people think it isn't playoff ball....I like it
I enjoyed the play last few games as well as anytime this year.......why complain about getting rid of a problem....be happy the Celtics finally are playing as the unit many of us thought they could

this turn around  is a good  thing........Past play by Rondo  was then....not working so great with these guys

I'm backing this group, far as they go......they deserve a shot...no matter how slim chance.

Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: indeedproceed on February 11, 2013, 04:08:47 PM
Some people here claim Rondo is "overrated" around here. The funny thing is, if you go to other SB Nation sites, his game is pretty well respected. Its mostly around CelticsBlog that he ges beat down and scapegoated so much.
It's not funny. There are two things people don't understand:

(1) The fact that his game is respected around the league makes it possible to get some real value in a trade. As in, a player that's at least as good as Rondo (believe it or not, those exist in the NBA).

(2) The world (or the Boston Celtics) doesn't end if you trade Rondo.

So yeah, people who ignore (1) and think (2) is false clearly overrate Rondo.

"Believe it or not, those exist in the NBA."

I can't really respond the way I want because it will probably get me banned, but I will say this - you're pretty condescending and its unnecessary.
This whole thread, starting with its title, is way more condescending to people that refuse to worship Rondo. I find answering in kind pretty necessary.

So that excuses you being condescending?
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: RJ87 on February 11, 2013, 04:10:52 PM
Some people here claim Rondo is "overrated" around here. The funny thing is, if you go to other SB Nation sites, his game is pretty well respected. Its mostly around CelticsBlog that he ges beat down and scapegoated so much.
It's not funny. There are two things people don't understand:

(1) The fact that his game is respected around the league makes it possible to get some real value in a trade. As in, a player that's at least as good as Rondo (believe it or not, those exist in the NBA).

(2) The world (or the Boston Celtics) doesn't end if you trade Rondo.

So yeah, people who ignore (1) and think (2) is false clearly overrate Rondo.

"Believe it or not, those exist in the NBA."

I can't really respond the way I want because it will probably get me banned, but I will say this - you're pretty condescending and its unnecessary.
This whole thread, starting with its title, is way more condescending to people that refuse to worship Rondo. I find answering in kind pretty necessary.

I can be reasonable, cite examples, and provide a well-argued point (and in fact I have, on multiple occasions) -- but it's less fun, and just as futile where changing people's mind is concerned.

Who asked you to change anyone's mind in the first place? I'm not a sinner whose looking to be converted.

Look, I can already see you and I are not going to see eye to eye, respect each other's opinions,  or otherwise have a civil debate.  Lets just agree to ignore each other.
Title: Re: The RONDO bashing has got to stop
Post by: indeedproceed on February 11, 2013, 04:16:46 PM
Actually, with that it seems like this thread has pretty much run its course. There were some good points made, some nice volley's back and forth, and ultimately everyone walked away without changing anyone's mind.

I'm locking it. If anyone thinks they have something new to add that hasn't already been said, PM me.