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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Ogaju on February 09, 2013, 07:17:20 PM

Title: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Ogaju on February 09, 2013, 07:17:20 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: esel1000 on February 09, 2013, 07:20:04 PM
Yeah, you're right... I mean not like we would have lost to the Sixers had Rondo not stepped up in game 7...

Oh and try to do it himself? What does that even mean? He was the leader of the team throughout the playoffs and he did an excellent job. Just because the refs cheated us out of his 44 pt game 2 and we lost the series in 7 games does not mean its his fault... he kept us in that series. Hell we were in the ECF because of his BIG PLAYS.

I don't even know what to say...
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: wiley on February 09, 2013, 07:23:58 PM
Yeah, you're right... I mean not like we would have lost to the Sixers had Rondo not stepped up in game 7...

Oh and try to do it himself? What does that even mean? He was the leader of the team throughout the playoffs and he did an excellent job. Just because the refs cheated us out of his 44 pt game 2 and we lost the series in 7 games does not mean its his fault... he kept us in that series. Hell we were in the ECF because of his BIG PLAYS.

I don't even know what to say...

TP.  He plays through dislocated elbows, goes the floor, plays huge minutes (reg. season leader too), leaves his heart on the court, bleeds green....  Let's slam him.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BleedGreen1989 on February 09, 2013, 07:25:25 PM
Yeah, you're right... I mean not like we would have lost to the Sixers had Rondo not stepped up in game 7...

Oh and try to do it himself? What does that even mean? He was the leader of the team throughout the playoffs and he did an excellent job. Just because the refs cheated us out of his 44 pt game 2 and we lost the series in 7 games does not mean its his fault... he kept us in that series. Hell we were in the ECF because of his BIG PLAYS.

I don't even know what to say...

Yea I REALLY don't understand the Rondo bashing.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: bfrombleacher on February 09, 2013, 07:27:30 PM
Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

You can apply the same argument to all good players who haven't played a huge role in winning a championship.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: RockinRyA on February 09, 2013, 07:30:08 PM
Yeah, you're right... I mean not like we would have lost to the Sixers had Rondo not stepped up in game 7...

Oh and try to do it himself? What does that even mean? He was the leader of the team throughout the playoffs and he did an excellent job. Just because the refs cheated us out of his 44 pt game 2 and we lost the series in 7 games does not mean its his fault... he kept us in that series. Hell we were in the ECF because of his BIG PLAYS.

I don't even know what to say...

Yeah, the fact that the refs blatantly ignored wade's foul is really not his fault. That was a won game in my eyes, always will be. He makes the right decisions almost all the time in the playoffs if he should pass or score. That makes me really miss playoff rondo and why its crucial to get a competent backup and play him so we can reduce his 37 min avg in the regular season.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Donoghus on February 09, 2013, 07:31:28 PM
The team is playing better without Rondo but they are not a better team without him.

Rondo has stepped up in the playoffs before and it's a very reasonable expectation that he would have done it again this post-season. 

You could make an argument that every NBA player has mailed it in or given less than a 100% effort in a regular season game so not sure why that would make Rondo unique. Since its an 82 game regular season, I don't really bat an eye to it if they're bringing it in late April, May, and June.

It's a team game but he is a big part of that picture for the Celtics.  His loss shouldn't be minimized.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: ScottHow on February 09, 2013, 08:16:20 PM
The Celtics will miss Rondo in the playoffs as he has always stepped up his game in the biggest moments.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: cltc5 on February 09, 2013, 08:17:19 PM
The team we have now I have faith in.  More faith then any team Rondo's led the past two years.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: TheBig5 on February 09, 2013, 08:18:47 PM
Rondo has flaws some of which you mentioned, but make no mistake this team will miss Rondo when it counts.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Ogaju on February 09, 2013, 08:25:01 PM
TP

I dont understand when the Celtics began to bask in moral victories someone said he counts the 44 game Miami game a win for us. Well I guess I could count the Laker game 7 in 2010 a win for us so we have #18 already. Moral victories are for losers not the Celtics.

No one can say how this team will play in the playoffs. The so-called experts said we wouldnt even make the playoffs when Rondo went down. So much for that.

Anyway, I deal with facts not with speculation. Playoff Rondo is yet to win us a CHIP. Until then I will continue to look at the evidence on the court.

By the way, how is the thread bashing Rondo? I just tried to make a point that this playoff Rondo has yet to win a championship.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: ScottHow on February 09, 2013, 08:33:57 PM
TP

I dont understand when the Celtics began to bask in moral victories someone said he counts the 44 game Miami game a win for us. Well I guess I could count the Laker game 7 in 2010 a win for us so we have #18 already. Moral victories are for losers not the Celtics.

No one can say how this team will play in the playoffs. The so-called experts said we wouldnt even make the playoffs when Rondo went down. So much for that.

Anyway, I deal with facts not with speculation. Playoff Rondo is yet to win us a CHIP. Until then I will continue to look at the evidence on the court.

By the way, how is the thread bashing Rondo? I just tried to make a point that this playoff Rondo has yet to win a championship.

So how can you win a title without playoff Rondo if even him stepping up in the playoffs hasn't gotten it done? Do you really think that Barbosa, Terry, Lee, or Bradley could of done what he did last year? It seems like we would be home sooner, not go farther.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Ogaju on February 09, 2013, 08:38:11 PM
Truth is we already won a chip in 2008 without playoff Rondo.

We can do it again. Rondo has not developed the type of game to take a team all the way. To take a team all the way you must make your teammates better not worse.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: OsirusCeltics on February 09, 2013, 08:38:47 PM
One stat that no one can disagree with

Titles won when Rondo was the main feature of the offense: 0
Titles won when Rondo wasn't the main feature of the offense: 1

Remember 2008? The same year you had KG, Paul, and Ray become the main feature of the offense. Ball movement was top notch (Similar to this year now with Rondo out)

Rondo as the main feature has not yielded any titles, so how can there be so much praise on Rondo in the playoffs?

Especially when he's very inconsistent. Half the time he plays awesome, other half he's either detrimental to the team or non-existent
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: blink on February 09, 2013, 08:38:56 PM
I am so sick of these type of posts.

Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: blink on February 09, 2013, 08:40:22 PM

the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

Have you even watched the Celtics in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012?  Because if you had watched, I don't believe you would be spouting this non-sense.

One player doesn't win you a championship.  It takes a team tremendously focused together and playing their best basketball possible.  Do you even understand that? 

Rondo's efforts in the playoffs have been amazing.  I can't believe that we go on a 6 game win streak after he goes down to injury and then 1/2 the people on this board get selective amnesia about one players contributions. 

It is really bordering on idiocy at this point.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Ogaju on February 09, 2013, 08:43:17 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

Have you even watched the Celtics in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012?  Because if you had watched, I don't believe you would be spouting this non-sense.

One player doesn't win you a championship.  Do you understand that?  Rondo's efforts in the playoffs have been amazing.  I can't believe that we go on a 6 game win streak after he goes down to injury and then 1/2 the people on this board get selective amnesia about one players contributions. 

It is really bordering on idiocy at this point.

Playoff Rondo is not a winning formula. The winning formula is team ball, everyone playing better, sharing the ball. Even Doc talked about this in 2008 or dont you remember YOU GOT TO DO IT TOGETHERRRRRRRRR!!! Somewhere along the line even Doc lost the focus on team play.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: esel1000 on February 09, 2013, 08:45:25 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

Have you even watched the Celtics in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012?  Because if you had watched, I don't believe you would be spouting this non-sense.

One player doesn't win you a championship.  Do you understand that?  Rondo's efforts in the playoffs have been amazing.  I can't believe that we go on a 6 game win streak after he goes down to injury and then 1/2 the people on this board get selective amnesia about one players contributions. 

It is really bordering on idiocy at this point.

Playoff Rondo is not a winning formula. The winning formula is team ball everyone playing better sharign the ball. Even Doc talked about this in 2008 or dont you remember YOU GOT TO DO IT TOGETHERRRRRRRRR!!! Somewhere along the line even Doc lost the focus on team play.

Rondo averages like 13-15 assists throughout the playoffs... How is he not playing team ball?
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BballTim on February 09, 2013, 08:46:59 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

  His most memorable playoff game was against the Cavs when he became (as I heard at the time) the only player in nba history (regular season or playoffs) to have 10+ points, 10+ rebounds and 10+ assists more than anyone else on his team. We never would have won that game if he didn't try to do it all himself. And trash him all you want for not winning a title. The list of players that eventually led their teams to titles when they were older than Rondo starts with MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Hakeem, Isiah, Shaq and Dirk. Good thing you weren't GM for any of those player's teams.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Celtics18 on February 09, 2013, 08:47:20 PM
How many 'Chips do playoff Chris Paul, playoff Kevin Durant, playoff Dwight Howard, playoff Carmelo Anthony, playoff Russell Westbrook, etc. . . have?

Speaking of championships, Rajon Rondo does have one.  I just thought that folks possibly needed to be reminded of that fact. 





Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: blink on February 09, 2013, 08:48:45 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

Have you even watched the Celtics in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012?  Because if you had watched, I don't believe you would be spouting this non-sense.

One player doesn't win you a championship.  Do you understand that?  Rondo's efforts in the playoffs have been amazing.  I can't believe that we go on a 6 game win streak after he goes down to injury and then 1/2 the people on this board get selective amnesia about one players contributions. 

It is really bordering on idiocy at this point.

Playoff Rondo is not a winning formula. The winning formula is team ball, everyone playing better, sharing the ball. Even Doc talked about this in 2008 or dont you remember YOU GOT TO DO IT TOGETHERRRRRRRRR!!! Somewhere along the line even Doc lost the focus on team play.

Well your concept of 'winning formula' is really odd.  We have been to the NBA finals in 2010, and the ECF in 2012.  Exactly how does that not equal 'winning formula'?  Do you really expect a NBA ring every year?  Especially with our roster the past couple years?  I just don't know what to say.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Ogaju on February 09, 2013, 08:49:48 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

Have you even watched the Celtics in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012?  Because if you had watched, I don't believe you would be spouting this non-sense.

One player doesn't win you a championship.  Do you understand that?  Rondo's efforts in the playoffs have been amazing.  I can't believe that we go on a 6 game win streak after he goes down to injury and then 1/2 the people on this board get selective amnesia about one players contributions. 

It is really bordering on idiocy at this point.

Playoff Rondo is not a winning formula. The winning formula is team ball everyone playing better sharign the ball. Even Doc talked about this in 2008 or dont you remember YOU GOT TO DO IT TOGETHERRRRRRRRR!!! Somewhere along the line even Doc lost the focus on team play.

Rondo averages like 13-15 assists throughout the playoffs... How is he not playing team ball?

If the current trend of team assists higher without Rondo than with Rondo holds up then his assists totals may actually be hindering overall ball movement and team ball.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Ogaju on February 09, 2013, 08:52:43 PM
How many 'Chips do playoff Chris Paul, playoff Kevin Durant, playoff Dwight Howard, playoff Carmelo Anthony, playoff Russell Westbrook, etc. . . have?

Speaking of championships, Rajon Rondo does have one.  I just thought that folks possibly needed to be reminded of that fact.

your argument does not follow because fans of those teams are not defedning their stars by saying they step it up in the playoffs. Most of those players you mention come to play everyday.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BballTim on February 09, 2013, 08:53:44 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

Have you even watched the Celtics in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012?  Because if you had watched, I don't believe you would be spouting this non-sense.

One player doesn't win you a championship.  Do you understand that?  Rondo's efforts in the playoffs have been amazing.  I can't believe that we go on a 6 game win streak after he goes down to injury and then 1/2 the people on this board get selective amnesia about one players contributions. 

It is really bordering on idiocy at this point.

Playoff Rondo is not a winning formula. The winning formula is team ball everyone playing better sharign the ball. Even Doc talked about this in 2008 or dont you remember YOU GOT TO DO IT TOGETHERRRRRRRRR!!! Somewhere along the line even Doc lost the focus on team play.

Rondo averages like 13-15 assists throughout the playoffs... How is he not playing team ball?

If the current trend of team asists higher without Rondo than with Rondo holds up then his asists totals may actually be hindering overall ball movement and team ball.

  Yes, the only thing that matters is the recent play of a very inconsistent team, not the years of the team assists being higher with Rondo. Is this your first year watching the Celts?
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: syfy9 on February 09, 2013, 08:54:09 PM

You could make an argument that every NBA player has mailed it in or given less than a 100% effort in a regular season game so not sure why that would make Rondo unique. Since its an 82 game regular season, I don't really bat an eye to it if they're bringing it in late April, May, and June.

Well, Rondo is notorious for being more inconsistent than most.

The fact that it is talked about with Rondo but not with other great players is a testament to something.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: blink on February 09, 2013, 08:55:58 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

Have you even watched the Celtics in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012?  Because if you had watched, I don't believe you would be spouting this non-sense.

One player doesn't win you a championship.  Do you understand that?  Rondo's efforts in the playoffs have been amazing.  I can't believe that we go on a 6 game win streak after he goes down to injury and then 1/2 the people on this board get selective amnesia about one players contributions. 

It is really bordering on idiocy at this point.

Playoff Rondo is not a winning formula. The winning formula is team ball everyone playing better sharign the ball. Even Doc talked about this in 2008 or dont you remember YOU GOT TO DO IT TOGETHERRRRRRRRR!!! Somewhere along the line even Doc lost the focus on team play.

Rondo averages like 13-15 assists throughout the playoffs... How is he not playing team ball?

If the current trend of team asists higher without Rondo than with Rondo holds up then his asists totals may actually be hindering overall ball movement and team ball.

This is a highly un-scientific analysis.  Your original idea behind this thread is based in some kind of bias that you have against Rondo as a player, not his results and play during the playoffs. 

I don't get why people like to go out of their way to make stuff up and bash Rondo?  Do we do that to KG, PP?  I mean Rondo's effort and heart and results in the playoffs in the last couple of years are def. at the same level as KG's and PP's.  Let just start bashing all of our great players then.  And we should really single out those that dislocate an elbow and come back to play and lead us to a win.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: The Rondo Show on February 09, 2013, 08:57:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndyfsS0bFK8

Here you go
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: bfrombleacher on February 09, 2013, 08:59:43 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

Have you even watched the Celtics in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012?  Because if you had watched, I don't believe you would be spouting this non-sense.

One player doesn't win you a championship.  Do you understand that?  Rondo's efforts in the playoffs have been amazing.  I can't believe that we go on a 6 game win streak after he goes down to injury and then 1/2 the people on this board get selective amnesia about one players contributions. 

It is really bordering on idiocy at this point.

Playoff Rondo is not a winning formula. The winning formula is team ball everyone playing better sharign the ball. Even Doc talked about this in 2008 or dont you remember YOU GOT TO DO IT TOGETHERRRRRRRRR!!! Somewhere along the line even Doc lost the focus on team play.

Rondo averages like 13-15 assists throughout the playoffs... How is he not playing team ball?

If the current trend of team assists higher without Rondo than with Rondo holds up then his assists totals may actually be hindering overall ball movement and team ball.

They've been having the same argument round here for the past 2 weeks.

Is it the old system based around Ray Allen or is it Rondo? Can Rondo play outside of the Ray through screens offensive system?
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Celtics18 on February 09, 2013, 09:00:46 PM
How many 'Chips do playoff Chris Paul, playoff Kevin Durant, playoff Dwight Howard, playoff Carmelo Anthony, playoff Russell Westbrook, etc. . . have?

Speaking of championships, Rajon Rondo does have one.  I just thought that folks possibly needed to be reminded of that fact.

your argument does not follow because fans of those teams are not defedning their stars by saying they step it up in the playoffs. Most of those players you mention come to play everyday.

"Most" of the five players that I mentioned "come to play every day"?  Which ones don't?
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: esel1000 on February 09, 2013, 09:05:06 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

Have you even watched the Celtics in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012?  Because if you had watched, I don't believe you would be spouting this non-sense.

One player doesn't win you a championship.  Do you understand that?  Rondo's efforts in the playoffs have been amazing.  I can't believe that we go on a 6 game win streak after he goes down to injury and then 1/2 the people on this board get selective amnesia about one players contributions. 

It is really bordering on idiocy at this point.

Playoff Rondo is not a winning formula. The winning formula is team ball everyone playing better sharign the ball. Even Doc talked about this in 2008 or dont you remember YOU GOT TO DO IT TOGETHERRRRRRRRR!!! Somewhere along the line even Doc lost the focus on team play.

Rondo averages like 13-15 assists throughout the playoffs... How is he not playing team ball?

If the current trend of team asists higher without Rondo than with Rondo holds up then his asists totals may actually be hindering overall ball movement and team ball.

This is a highly un-scientific analysis.  Your original idea behind this thread is based in some kind of bias that you have against Rondo as a player, not his results and play during the playoffs. 

I don't get why people like to go out of their way to make stuff up and bash Rondo?  Do we do that to KG, PP?  I mean Rondo's effort and heart and results in the playoffs in the last couple of years are def. at the same level as KG's and PP's.  Let just start bashing all of our great players then.  And we should really single out those that dislocate an elbow and come back to play and lead us to a win.

Yeah honestly if you want to blame a guy for stalling the offense blame PP... his iso plays have done just that on plenty of occasions. Rondo is an excellent team player and he excels in the playoffs... the numbers and the plays prove it.

The fact is this team would not have gone as far as it has in the playoffs the last couple of years without Rondo. Not winning a championship each of those years is not Rondo's fault... its the rosters...
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: blink on February 09, 2013, 09:05:37 PM
Rondo's points/assists/rebounds/steals averages over the last 4 playoffs.  66 games - which is 11x the current celtic regular season win streak.

2009:  16.9ppg/9.8apg/9.7rpg/2.5spg
2010:  15.6ppg/9.3apg/5.6rpg/1.9spg
2011:  14.0ppg/9.6apg/5.4rpg/1.1spg
2012:  17.3ppg/11.9apg/6.7rpg/2.4spg

I wish we could all at least tip the hat to Rondo's playoff efforts because it has been pretty amazing.  If you don't like those results, and prefer to hang your hat on a Rondo-less 6-game regular season win streak go ahead. 

I am still cheering for them to win the title this year too.  I support ALL of our players, not just a few.  I just don't know how anyone in their right mind thinks that losing that kind of contribution won't have a big impact on our playoff chances.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: ScottHow on February 09, 2013, 09:15:20 PM
The theory that we are better without player X because we've yet to win a title with him as an elite player is just amazing. lol

Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: blink on February 09, 2013, 09:19:02 PM
This was a fun view...

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/allstar/2013/02/08/rajon-rondo-career-top-10-plays.nba/index.html

take a close note at #1 (the last one in the video).
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: cltc5 on February 09, 2013, 09:53:50 PM
The theory that we are better without player X because we've yet to win a title with him as an elite player is just amazing. lol

the thought that one player is better than 5 is even more amazing ::)
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: blink on February 09, 2013, 09:56:51 PM
The theory that we are better without player X because we've yet to win a title with him as an elite player is just amazing. lol

the thought that one player is better than 5 is even more amazing ::)

Who in this whole thread has said anything remotely like what you are implying?
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Swoopz on February 09, 2013, 09:57:16 PM
The theory that we are better without player X because we've yet to win a title with him as an elite player is just amazing. lol

the thought that one player is better than 5 is even more amazing ::)

Good thing no one ever said that. What's not amazing is the thought that one player, who has often stepped up in big moments, can improve a team's chances of winning a championship
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 09, 2013, 09:57:46 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

Have you even watched the Celtics in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012?  Because if you had watched, I don't believe you would be spouting this non-sense.

One player doesn't win you a championship.  Do you understand that?  Rondo's efforts in the playoffs have been amazing.  I can't believe that we go on a 6 game win streak after he goes down to injury and then 1/2 the people on this board get selective amnesia about one players contributions. 

It is really bordering on idiocy at this point.

Playoff Rondo is not a winning formula. The winning formula is team ball everyone playing better sharign the ball. Even Doc talked about this in 2008 or dont you remember YOU GOT TO DO IT TOGETHERRRRRRRRR!!! Somewhere along the line even Doc lost the focus on team play.

Rondo averages like 13-15 assists throughout the playoffs... How is he not playing team ball?

If the current trend of team asists higher without Rondo than with Rondo holds up then his asists totals may actually be hindering overall ball movement and team ball.

This is a highly un-scientific analysis.  Your original idea behind this thread is based in some kind of bias that you have against Rondo as a player, not his results and play during the playoffs. 

I don't get why people like to go out of their way to make stuff up and bash Rondo?  Do we do that to KG, PP?  I mean Rondo's effort and heart and results in the playoffs in the last couple of years are def. at the same level as KG's and PP's.  Let just start bashing all of our great players then.  And we should really single out those that dislocate an elbow and come back to play and lead us to a win.

Yeah honestly if you want to blame a guy for stalling the offense blame PP... his iso plays have done just that on plenty of occasions. Rondo is an excellent team player and he excels in the playoffs... the numbers and the plays prove it.

The fact is this team would not have gone as far as it has in the playoffs the last couple of years without Rondo. Not winning a championship each of those years is not Rondo's fault... its the rosters...

Pierce has those plays where he looks like rondo. Pounding the ball and what not. However rondo does it on a much more consistent basis.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: cltc5 on February 09, 2013, 09:59:46 PM
Truth is we already won a chip in 2008 without playoff Rondo.

We can do it again. Rondo has not developed the type of game to take a team all the way. To take a team all the way you must make your teammates better not worse.

totally different rondo then.  He was a facilitator and the offense ran through the big 3.  Rondo was just the cog.  Now he's been expected to be the whole engine and that's either his fault or doc's.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Ogaju on February 09, 2013, 10:02:42 PM
this is  not a Rondo bashing thread. The thread is a rebuttal to those who are discounting the play of the team by looking forward to the playoffs. There is no evidence that our current play cannot be sustained through the playoff, and if it is not and we dont win, it is not as if we have won with Rondo the last four years.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: blink on February 09, 2013, 10:04:46 PM
this is  not a Rondo bashing thread. The thread is a rebuttal to those who are discounting the play of the team by looking forward to the playoffs. There is no evidence that our current play cannot be sustained through the playoff, and if it is not and we dont win, it is not as if we have won with Rondo the last four years.

This is from the 1st post:
"Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?"

That isn't bashing / diminishing Rondo's contributions???  I disagree 100%.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Ogaju on February 09, 2013, 10:06:56 PM
The point was against those who coined 'playoff Rondo' period. I like Rondo I do not bash him. I criticize his play when I see fit, but I do not bash any player on the Cs.

The point is who cares about playoff Rondo sometimes Championships are won in the regular season when you get favorable seeding. We should worry about doing the right thing to win not waiting for playoffs to really play hard.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: bfrombleacher on February 09, 2013, 10:09:16 PM
this is  not a Rondo bashing thread. The thread is a rebuttal to those who are discounting the play of the team by looking forward to the playoffs. There is no evidence that our current play cannot be sustained through the playoff, and if it is not and we dont win, it is not as if we have won with Rondo the last four years.

The team's ceiling is lower without Rondo but it's not as low as people think but Rondo is nowhere near as bad as you say he is (playoff or not).

Also, what blink said.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: sdceltsfan on February 09, 2013, 10:11:13 PM
I think Rondo's ball dominance hampers many players on this team from getting in to their rhythm from game to game.

Players who were obviously affected:

Jason Terry
Courtney Lee
Jeff Green

To a degree:

Paul Pierce
Brandon Bass

KG was one of the only consistent players whether Rondo was on or off the court with him. I think Rondo has always trusted KG's game, so he goes to him when KG calls for it. When Pierce is flat or cold, Rondo noticeably avoids him at times.......this was even more apparent with Terry, Lee, Green.

I would also argue that much of Terry/Lee/Green's games comes from transition shooting on fast breaks. Now, this is also a Doc Rivers thing, because I feel like he hates doing the D'Antoni type offense, where you just take the open shots/3's if you get them in transition, before the defense is set. Rondo very much falls in line with Doc for the most part.
       However, when he puts Doc out of his ear, he is a very ball-dominant, penetrating, drive and dish type of PG. Shooters like Jason Terry, who basically have to stand in one spot (not his game), once Rondo drives (because of his erratic style of passing, which also makes him an amazing player) just to hope to catch his pass if he kicks it back out. He goes to fast and hard to the hole for guys to be shifting around a whole lot. When Rondo makes his moves, the rest of the offense tends to freeze up, IMO. This is what makes Rondo one of the most talented but also frustrating players to watch.

The Celtics are definitely playing more team ball, and it's working for now. No doubt though, that come playoff time, there will be games where KG/PP are gassed, and we don't exactly have another one player who can put the team on his shoulders. This is where we will miss Rondo.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Ogaju on February 09, 2013, 10:12:29 PM
this is  not a Rondo bashing thread. The thread is a rebuttal to those who are discounting the play of the team by looking forward to the playoffs. There is no evidence that our current play cannot be sustained through the playoff, and if it is not and we dont win, it is not as if we have won with Rondo the last four years.

The team's ceiling is lower without Rondo but it's not as low as people think but Rondo is nowhere near as bad as you say he is (playoff or not).

Also, what blink said.

bad? who said Rondo is bad..the thread is about arguments made by posters unless you can show me where Rondo himself coined himself regular season Rondo and playoff Rondo this thread is not about Rondo but about those who claim there are two Rondos.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BballTim on February 09, 2013, 10:14:38 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

Have you even watched the Celtics in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012?  Because if you had watched, I don't believe you would be spouting this non-sense.

One player doesn't win you a championship.  Do you understand that?  Rondo's efforts in the playoffs have been amazing.  I can't believe that we go on a 6 game win streak after he goes down to injury and then 1/2 the people on this board get selective amnesia about one players contributions. 

It is really bordering on idiocy at this point.

Playoff Rondo is not a winning formula. The winning formula is team ball everyone playing better sharign the ball. Even Doc talked about this in 2008 or dont you remember YOU GOT TO DO IT TOGETHERRRRRRRRR!!! Somewhere along the line even Doc lost the focus on team play.

Rondo averages like 13-15 assists throughout the playoffs... How is he not playing team ball?

If the current trend of team asists higher without Rondo than with Rondo holds up then his asists totals may actually be hindering overall ball movement and team ball.

This is a highly un-scientific analysis.  Your original idea behind this thread is based in some kind of bias that you have against Rondo as a player, not his results and play during the playoffs. 

I don't get why people like to go out of their way to make stuff up and bash Rondo?  Do we do that to KG, PP?  I mean Rondo's effort and heart and results in the playoffs in the last couple of years are def. at the same level as KG's and PP's.  Let just start bashing all of our great players then.  And we should really single out those that dislocate an elbow and come back to play and lead us to a win.

Yeah honestly if you want to blame a guy for stalling the offense blame PP... his iso plays have done just that on plenty of occasions. Rondo is an excellent team player and he excels in the playoffs... the numbers and the plays prove it.

The fact is this team would not have gone as far as it has in the playoffs the last couple of years without Rondo. Not winning a championship each of those years is not Rondo's fault... its the rosters...

Pierce has those plays where he looks like rondo. Pounding the ball and what not. However rondo does it on a much more consistent basis.

  While I'd expect Doc to implement an offense that's somewhat more ball-movement oriented than what we saw with Rondo playing this year it's worth pointing out that the team's had great success with Rondo dominating the ball and racking up the assists.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: ScottHow on February 09, 2013, 10:15:26 PM
this is  not a Rondo bashing thread. The thread is a rebuttal to those who are discounting the play of the team by looking forward to the playoffs. There is no evidence that our current play cannot be sustained through the playoff, and if it is not and we dont win, it is not as if we have won with Rondo the last four years.

This is from the 1st post:
"Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?"

That isn't bashing / diminishing Rondo's contributions???  I disagree 100%.

Exactly. tp
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: triboy16f on February 09, 2013, 10:18:30 PM
I blame rondo for letting things get to his head that he is a super player. I blame him for not figuring out , endless dribbles or lazy court brought UPS has hurt this team. Also blame him for gambling on defense too much. But also u have to blame rivers for not changing his bad habits. If he doesn't listen u can just bench him. His injury is a blessing in disguise and hopefully he will fit into how things r running now. If by a miracle we beat Miami or win it all, he will really have to buy into the system now or get traded to somewhere else where he can play his way
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: blink on February 09, 2013, 10:19:03 PM
this is  not a Rondo bashing thread. The thread is a rebuttal to those who are discounting the play of the team by looking forward to the playoffs. There is no evidence that our current play cannot be sustained through the playoff, and if it is not and we dont win, it is not as if we have won with Rondo the last four years.

The team's ceiling is lower without Rondo but it's not as low as people think but Rondo is nowhere near as bad as you say he is (playoff or not).

Also, what blink said.

bad? who said Rondo is bad..the thread is about arguments made by posters unless you can show me where Rondo himself coined himself regular season Rondo and playoff Rondo this thread is not about Rondo but about those who claim there are two Rondos.

This is what you said in your original post:
"To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself."

IMO this thread is just basically belittling Rondo's contributions in the playoffs.  I posted his playoff stats for the past 4 years.  They show a huge contribution to the team.  Your 'arguement' is that somehow we are better off without the Rondo that contributed that effort for our team.  I disagree 100% with your comments, this thread and the silly way you are trying to backtrack from you original post.

I want us to win this year too, with or without Rondo.  I am just tired of people trying to rationalize that we are somehow a 'better' team and have more of a chance to do damage in the playoffs without Rondo.  There is no evidence that that is the case.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BballTim on February 09, 2013, 10:23:36 PM
The point was against those who coined 'playoff Rondo' period. I like Rondo I do not bash him. I criticize his play when I see fit, but I do not bash any player on the Cs.

The point is who cares about playoff Rondo sometimes Championships are won in the regular season when you get favorable seeding. We should worry about doing the right thing to win not waiting for playoffs to really play hard.

  Championships are never won during the regular season. The Lakers are the only top seed in the last 4 years to get to the finals.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BballTim on February 09, 2013, 10:53:20 PM
I blame rondo for letting things get to his head that he is a super player.

  You're not in Rondo's head. You're blaming him for something you made up.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: chambers on February 09, 2013, 11:02:35 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

you're missing a crucial part about playoff Rondo vs regular season Rondo.
Playoff Rondo goes into attack mode and puts his body on the line  every play down the court.
I NEVER want playoff Rondo playing that way for a full season- otherwise we have more injuries due to his style of game.
His body takes a beating as it is in the regular season- it's rolling the dice too many times to have him play that aggressively every single game- he'd barely get through each season as he does already.

It's about preserving his body until it really matters. I don't care if people think he turns it on and off. As long as he turns it on for the playoffs I'm fine.

And how many championships has Rondo won us? One in 2007, and we don't win that 'ship without Rondo getting the ball to Ray Allen and Pierce and our perimeter guys, or Rondo's running the floor.
I'd actually like him to get back into running up the floor earlier instead of bringing it up every play.
But yeah, the playoff Rondo argument is a legit one.
Think about how many injuries he goes through already each season and what he plays through and then times that by the intensity he brings each playoffs.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: indeedproceed on February 09, 2013, 11:03:49 PM
How many playoff series have we won without Rondo starting and finishing the series healthy? That's not a end-all argument, or an argument that says this team as currently constituted will be limited to anything short of a championship.

But it is an important point when discounting that the team will certainly do well in the playoffs.

Right now, I think we're surprising a lot of people, and are benefitting from the team rallying.

But no winning streak before the all-star break has ever meant anything significant. We are, as we have ever been; waiting to see if the team can really keep up this style of play.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: esel1000 on February 09, 2013, 11:06:30 PM
I blame rondo for letting things get to his head that he is a super player.

  You're not in Rondo's head. You're blaming him for something you made up.

Exactly... not to mention he kind of is a super player...
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: celticslove on February 09, 2013, 11:41:59 PM
months from now we will find out for real if we are better or worse without rondo in the playoffs. stop these never ending talks and let's just enjoy the games.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 09, 2013, 11:47:56 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

44 points ring a bell?
Game 7 Philly?

I'm sure you know the phrase "makes it when it matters most"
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 09, 2013, 11:57:53 PM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

Have you even watched the Celtics in the playoffs in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012?  Because if you had watched, I don't believe you would be spouting this non-sense.

One player doesn't win you a championship.  Do you understand that?  Rondo's efforts in the playoffs have been amazing.  I can't believe that we go on a 6 game win streak after he goes down to injury and then 1/2 the people on this board get selective amnesia about one players contributions. 

It is really bordering on idiocy at this point.

Playoff Rondo is not a winning formula. The winning formula is team ball, everyone playing better, sharing the ball. Even Doc talked about this in 2008 or dont you remember YOU GOT TO DO IT TOGETHERRRRRRRRR!!! Somewhere along the line even Doc lost the focus on team play.

You can't play team ball every game, no matter how good or consistent.
At some point, certain players must take the game over with isos
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: kgainez on February 10, 2013, 12:20:39 AM
the Celtics pay Rondo to show up and play his best every game apparently even his most ardent supporters agree that he does not give his best every game. This is not a good thing.

To those that argue that we will miss Rondo come the playoffs, remember that in his most memorable playoff games where he went all the way - we still lost. Maybe we would have won that game if he did not try to do it himself.

Finally, who cares about playoff Rondo? We should only care about Chips. How many chips has playoff Rondo won us?

this makes too much sense.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: kgainez on February 10, 2013, 12:30:46 AM
The point was against those who coined 'playoff Rondo' period. I like Rondo I do not bash him. I criticize his play when I see fit, but I do not bash any player on the Cs.

The point is who cares about playoff Rondo sometimes Championships are won in the regular season when you get favorable seeding. We should worry about doing the right thing to win not waiting for playoffs to really play hard.

  Championships are never won during the regular season. The Lakers are the only top seed in the last 4 years to get to the finals.

what? lol
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: bfrombleacher on February 10, 2013, 12:38:27 AM
The point was against those who coined 'playoff Rondo' period. I like Rondo I do not bash him. I criticize his play when I see fit, but I do not bash any player on the Cs.

The point is who cares about playoff Rondo sometimes Championships are won in the regular season when you get favorable seeding. We should worry about doing the right thing to win not waiting for playoffs to really play hard.

  Championships are never won during the regular season. The Lakers are the only top seed in the last 4 years to get to the finals.

what? lol

Bulls were top seed last year, not the Heat, in case that's what you were wondering.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 12:39:05 AM
The point was against those who coined 'playoff Rondo' period. I like Rondo I do not bash him. I criticize his play when I see fit, but I do not bash any player on the Cs.

The point is who cares about playoff Rondo sometimes Championships are won in the regular season when you get favorable seeding. We should worry about doing the right thing to win not waiting for playoffs to really play hard.

  Championships are never won during the regular season. The Lakers are the only top seed in the last 4 years to get to the finals.

what? lol

  Nice response. Glad to see the facts both surprise and amuse you.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 10, 2013, 12:42:34 AM
The point was against those who coined 'playoff Rondo' period. I like Rondo I do not bash him. I criticize his play when I see fit, but I do not bash any player on the Cs.

The point is who cares about playoff Rondo sometimes Championships are won in the regular season when you get favorable seeding. We should worry about doing the right thing to win not waiting for playoffs to really play hard.

  Championships are never won during the regular season. The Lakers are the only top seed in the last 4 years to get to the finals.

what? lol

  Nice response. Glad to see the facts both surprise and amuse you.

I couldn't even understand it
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: esel1000 on February 10, 2013, 01:09:23 AM
The point was against those who coined 'playoff Rondo' period. I like Rondo I do not bash him. I criticize his play when I see fit, but I do not bash any player on the Cs.

The point is who cares about playoff Rondo sometimes Championships are won in the regular season when you get favorable seeding. We should worry about doing the right thing to win not waiting for playoffs to really play hard.

  Championships are never won during the regular season. The Lakers are the only top seed in the last 4 years to get to the finals.

what? lol

  Nice response. Glad to see the facts both surprise and amuse you.

I couldn't even understand it

He means that the regular season means nothing... The best players step up in the playoffs. There is one goal every season, and thats a championship. Rondo plays like he wants it. It's not his fault we haven't won a championship in recent years... its the roster, and strength of opposing rosters and players fighting for that same goal.

The Rondo bashing really is ridiculous... has a fanbase ever bashed their star player to this level in recent history if ever? Anyone who thinks this team is A. better without Rondo and/or B. that we have a realistic shot in the playoffs without this guy is fooling themselves...

In the playoffs, the leaders step up and make big plays. Rondo did that in game 7 vs the Sixers to get us to the ECF. Lebron did that in game 6 of the ECF. It's the way it is... People can bash Rondo all they want... I'll believe this roster can get past the first round without him when I see it
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: kgainez on February 10, 2013, 01:09:34 AM
The point was against those who coined 'playoff Rondo' period. I like Rondo I do not bash him. I criticize his play when I see fit, but I do not bash any player on the Cs.

The point is who cares about playoff Rondo sometimes Championships are won in the regular season when you get favorable seeding. We should worry about doing the right thing to win not waiting for playoffs to really play hard.

  Championships are never won during the regular season. The Lakers are the only top seed in the last 4 years to get to the finals.

what? lol

  Nice response. Glad to see the facts both surprise and amuse you.

oh you know what? I misread that
I thought you said Lakers were the only top 4 seed to get to finals
and for that, i was thoroughly confused.

apologies.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: kgainez on February 10, 2013, 01:13:34 AM
The point was against those who coined 'playoff Rondo' period. I like Rondo I do not bash him. I criticize his play when I see fit, but I do not bash any player on the Cs.

The point is who cares about playoff Rondo sometimes Championships are won in the regular season when you get favorable seeding. We should worry about doing the right thing to win not waiting for playoffs to really play hard.

  Championships are never won during the regular season. The Lakers are the only top seed in the last 4 years to get to the finals.

what? lol

  Nice response. Glad to see the facts both surprise and amuse you.

I couldn't even understand it

He means that the regular season means nothing... The best players step up in the playoffs. There is one goal every season, and thats a championship. Rondo plays like he wants it. It's not his fault we haven't won a championship in recent years... its the roster, and strength of opposing rosters and players fighting for that same goal.

The Rondo bashing really is ridiculous... has a fanbase ever bashed their star player to this level in recent history if ever? Anyone who thinks this team is A. better without Rondo and/or B. that we have a realistic shot in the playoffs without this guy is fooling themselves...

In the playoffs, the leaders step up and make big plays. Rondo did that in game 7 vs the Sixers to get us to the ECF. Lebron did that in game 6 of the ECF. It's the way it is... People can bash Rondo all they want... I'll believe this roster can get past the first round without him when I see it

i hate that it's rondo bashing because we'd like rondo to show up for all games.
i hate that it's rondo bashing that people are stating that, besides the moral victories, we've never won with Rondo being a superhuman player.

i don't like to think of myself of bashing the guy, but as being realistic about him. and possibly, just maybe, thinking he's a tinch overrated (as we tend to overrate our own players -- see perk).

i think team ball wins. a spaced floor wins. great defense wins.

not one dominate player. one who happens to cheat a lot on defense. doesn't add a lot of floor spacing (in the system we had). i think we were ok with Ray...but this is a whole different ball game. I don't think the past helps us dictating the future here...it's ALL different.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: esel1000 on February 10, 2013, 01:24:12 AM
The point was against those who coined 'playoff Rondo' period. I like Rondo I do not bash him. I criticize his play when I see fit, but I do not bash any player on the Cs.

The point is who cares about playoff Rondo sometimes Championships are won in the regular season when you get favorable seeding. We should worry about doing the right thing to win not waiting for playoffs to really play hard.

  Championships are never won during the regular season. The Lakers are the only top seed in the last 4 years to get to the finals.

what? lol

  Nice response. Glad to see the facts both surprise and amuse you.

I couldn't even understand it

He means that the regular season means nothing... The best players step up in the playoffs. There is one goal every season, and thats a championship. Rondo plays like he wants it. It's not his fault we haven't won a championship in recent years... its the roster, and strength of opposing rosters and players fighting for that same goal.

The Rondo bashing really is ridiculous... has a fanbase ever bashed their star player to this level in recent history if ever? Anyone who thinks this team is A. better without Rondo and/or B. that we have a realistic shot in the playoffs without this guy is fooling themselves...

In the playoffs, the leaders step up and make big plays. Rondo did that in game 7 vs the Sixers to get us to the ECF. Lebron did that in game 6 of the ECF. It's the way it is... People can bash Rondo all they want... I'll believe this roster can get past the first round without him when I see it

i hate that it's rondo bashing because we'd like rondo to show up for all games.
i hate that it's rondo bashing that people are stating that, besides the moral victories, we've never won with Rondo being a superhuman player.

i don't like to think of myself of bashing the guy, but as being realistic about him. and possibly, just maybe, thinking he's a tinch overrated (as we tend to overrate our own players -- see perk).

i think team ball wins. a spaced floor wins. great defense wins.

not one dominate player. one who happens to cheat a lot on defense. doesn't add a lot of floor spacing (in the system we had). i think we were ok with Ray...but this is a whole different ball game. I don't think the past helps us dictating the future here...it's ALL different.

What's your definition of Rondo showing up to games? He plays harder during certain games? Fine, point taken. But he plays his hardest in the playoffs and in the end thats all that really matters.

It's also not his fault that we haven't won with him as the leader... thats the fault of a roster inadequate to the ones we played in the playoffs. We wouldn't have gotten as far as we did last year without Rondo and thats a fact if you watched the games.

You may be realistic, but most of the Rondo bashers on here are not realistic about the guy. He's not Lebron James but hes a top 15 player in this league and this team, honestly, is not better without him. At least not in the playoffs. Like I said before, i'll believe this current team can get out of the first round when I see it
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 01:37:00 AM
The point was against those who coined 'playoff Rondo' period. I like Rondo I do not bash him. I criticize his play when I see fit, but I do not bash any player on the Cs.

The point is who cares about playoff Rondo sometimes Championships are won in the regular season when you get favorable seeding. We should worry about doing the right thing to win not waiting for playoffs to really play hard.

  Championships are never won during the regular season. The Lakers are the only top seed in the last 4 years to get to the finals.

what? lol

  Nice response. Glad to see the facts both surprise and amuse you.

I couldn't even understand it

He means that the regular season means nothing... The best players step up in the playoffs. There is one goal every season, and thats a championship. Rondo plays like he wants it. It's not his fault we haven't won a championship in recent years... its the roster, and strength of opposing rosters and players fighting for that same goal.

The Rondo bashing really is ridiculous... has a fanbase ever bashed their star player to this level in recent history if ever? Anyone who thinks this team is A. better without Rondo and/or B. that we have a realistic shot in the playoffs without this guy is fooling themselves...

In the playoffs, the leaders step up and make big plays. Rondo did that in game 7 vs the Sixers to get us to the ECF. Lebron did that in game 6 of the ECF. It's the way it is... People can bash Rondo all they want... I'll believe this roster can get past the first round without him when I see it

i hate that it's rondo bashing because we'd like rondo to show up for all games.
i hate that it's rondo bashing that people are stating that, besides the moral victories, we've never won with Rondo being a superhuman player.

i don't like to think of myself of bashing the guy, but as being realistic about him. and possibly, just maybe, thinking he's a tinch overrated (as we tend to overrate our own players -- see perk).

i think team ball wins. a spaced floor wins. great defense wins.

  I don't think that the point is that we haven't won a title with Rondo, the point is we've come close enough to winning a title to demonstrate that it's reasonable to say that we *could* win a title with him in the future. We haven't shown that a team of (with the possible exception of Bradley) fairly ordinary guards and a less than stellar pf can come close to winning the title, although we see fairly similar (talent wise) teams fall to the Miamis and the LAs and the Thunder and the Spurs and the (with Rondo) Celts every year.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Greenbean on February 10, 2013, 06:03:00 AM
The whole anaylsis of the Rondo injury impact on this blog and nationally for that matter has been way off base.

This years team is different from teams in years past. For some reason, running the offense through Rondo exclusively has not been efficient this year as
It has in the past. However, Rondo has proven he can make it work. For whatever reason, this year it was taking time to figure out integrating the new oarts in the Rondo offense.

Now that the offense is simplified, the new pieces are plaging better. May be if Doc had made a similar philosophy shift with Rondo, the results would be similar.

Now there is the issue of Rondos inconsistent defense. I have come to grips with it over the years and have also realized that one man cannot run the entire offense andnplay defense for 40 minutes in the regular season. Which is why I think Rondo can really sell out in the playoffs. There have only been a handful of nba players ever who could dominate both sides of the ball all game.

The guy has some faults but the roster is less talented without him. With him this year the team was underachieving and now they are playing upnto their capabilities. This time away from the team is probably an eye opener for him and for Doc on howthis team best performs.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: mctyson on February 10, 2013, 07:47:33 AM
TP

I dont understand when the Celtics began to bask in moral victories someone said he counts the 44 game Miami game a win for us. Well I guess I could count the Laker game 7 in 2010 a win for us so we have #18 already. Moral victories are for losers not the Celtics.

No one can say how this team will play in the playoffs. The so-called experts said we wouldnt even make the playoffs when Rondo went down. So much for that.

Anyway, I deal with facts not with speculation. Playoff Rondo is yet to win us a CHIP. Until then I will continue to look at the evidence on the court.

By the way, how is the thread bashing Rondo? I just tried to make a point that this playoff Rondo has yet to win a championship.

So how can you win a title without playoff Rondo if even him stepping up in the playoffs hasn't gotten it done? Do you really think that Barbosa, Terry, Lee, or Bradley could of done what he did last year? It seems like we would be home sooner, not go farther.

See, this gets to the heart of this entire argument.  It's called a False Dichotomy.

We have people who say the Celtics didn't get it done when "X" occurred, so how is it possible with "Y" ?  The fact is, we don't know what the outcome will be with Y.

That's why it is a false dichotomy or a false choice.  You simply cannot compare the two situations.  As many people have said, the Celtics are not a better team without Rondo, but they also may not be a worse team without Rondo.  They are a different team without Rondo.

The success of this different team is yet to be determined.  So far, they are playing well, which is great to see.  Whether than turns into a first-round playoff exit or Banner 18 is yet to be determined.  Why do we need to jump to conclusions about an unknown outcome?  Can't we just enjoy watching the show?
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: scaryjerry on February 10, 2013, 08:18:58 AM
He played well enough to be voted all star starter


Sorry bub, he just takes it to another level come playoffs
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: scaryjerry on February 10, 2013, 08:20:27 AM
The team we have now I have faith in.  More faith then any team Rondo's led the past two years.


 ::)
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 10, 2013, 08:49:55 AM
Yeah, you're right... I mean not like we would have lost to the Sixers had Rondo not stepped up in game 7...

Oh and try to do it himself? What does that even mean? He was the leader of the team throughout the playoffs and he did an excellent job. Just because the refs cheated us out of his 44 pt game 2 and we lost the series in 7 games does not mean its his fault... he kept us in that series. Hell we were in the ECF because of his BIG PLAYS.

I don't even know what to say...

You are seriously undermining KG and his Vintage 20/10 playoff performance.  Rondo and KG combined stepped up big time to will us to game 7 of the ECF.  You're absolutely right that Rondo's play was critical to that run, but Garnett's was just as critical, if not more when you factor in the impact he had on defense.

Every time Rondo had an average game KG had a huge one, and vice versa.

BUT that still doesn't change the fact that what the OP said is generally correct.  Boston are playing Rondo the big bucks to give his all every night, not just in the big games that people watch.  As I've said before, Rondo's playoff play means precisely nothing if we don't actually make the playoffs.

Rondo makes about $10 million a year, which is approximately 10x what the CEO of large enterprise makes and about 100x what a good doctor or a senior IT project manager makes. 

That's a LOT of money, and if you're getting that much you BETTER put in 110% effort every night.  I know everybody has bad games, but if you look at the truly elite players in history (Kobe, Jordan, Bird, etc) those guys never played a single game with any less than 100% effort.  KG and PP, even at their current ages, still play with that mentality - even if they play bad, you can never question how hard they tried.

I'm see the same right now in Lee, Bradley, Collins, Barbosa and Sullinger...and I saw that same attitude last season from Marquis and Pietrus.  Those guys always played HARD. 

I respect a player who lacks talent but tries his best, more than I respect a player who has supreme talent but takes games off.

Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 10, 2013, 08:55:48 AM
So you want people to stop arguing a point you can't beat, Eh?   What are you Karl Rove?
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: kgainez on February 10, 2013, 09:31:01 AM
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 09:39:22 AM
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous.

   The league is brimming with players that have won much less than "squat" in the playoffs. Take what you can get.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 10, 2013, 09:43:50 AM
exposure of Rondos, and Doc's stupidly of not seeing how Rondo was killing all the new guys efforts to be part of tHe team......Rondo playing his Perk era ball,   doesn't fit with this newer group , Allen saw the issue with Rondo.

Frankly  we have seen its huge problem, one that  almost caused the team to tank.   Maybe Rondo works though it ?   

He is terrible at having the ball in his hands. the last minutes of a game.   Because he is so Unconfident shooting

Not being able to drive pull upand shoot consistent , like CP3 kills Rondos value,   he isn't trusted to shoot free throws........

at crunch time Rondo's skill set sucks out loud......

He lacks basic shooting skills and confidence  a point guard needs in the NBA.

I 'd rather have Delonte West handle the ball at the end of a game.

Teams KnOW Rondo is looking to pass .......that is killing us .
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 09:45:17 AM

i think team ball wins. a spaced floor wins. great defense wins.


  Just out of curiosity, how many teams can you name that won titles without great players because of good floor spacing?
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 10, 2013, 09:46:43 AM

i think team ball wins. a spaced floor wins. great defense wins.


  Just out of curiosity, how many teams can you name that won titles without great players because of good floor spacing?

Team ball and having great players are not mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: scaryjerry on February 10, 2013, 09:56:21 AM
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.

because pierce and kg were stacking up the championships before having each other and Rondo as their point? Actually they were on perennial losers not even making the playoffs

Yawn.

Kg had made out of the first round exactly one time before becoming a Celtic
Pierce just twice before the big 3 era in a pitiful east

Frankly they were career losers without each other...stop acting like they were Duncan and Kobe
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 09:59:54 AM

i think team ball wins. a spaced floor wins. great defense wins.


  Just out of curiosity, how many teams can you name that won titles without great players because of good floor spacing?

Team ball and having great players are not mutually exclusive.

  Nobody said they were, but if great spacing never wins over great players then how accurate is "a spaced floor wins"?
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 10, 2013, 10:16:56 AM
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.



Yawn.

Kg had made out of the first round exactly one time before becoming a Celtic
Pierce just twice before the big 3 era in a pitiful east

Frankly they were career losers without each other...stop acting like they were Duncan and Kobe

Duncan would've been a career loser without Robinson, Ginobili, and Parker.

Kobe would've been a career loser without Gasol and Shaq.

It took LeBron to join with Wade and Bosh still at the peak of their primes to win a championship, and they struggled to get it.

Jordan didn't accomplish anything until he was joined with Pippen, and even then it took them about 4 years together to get it.

Kevin Garnett in all his career seldom had help. The only year he did have help, they were making a big run in the playoffs, but one of their key players went down in the conference finals. And Garnett was a monster that year.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: hpantazo on February 10, 2013, 11:06:39 AM
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.



Yawn.

Kg had made out of the first round exactly one time before becoming a Celtic
Pierce just twice before the big 3 era in a pitiful east

Frankly they were career losers without each other...stop acting like they were Duncan and Kobe

Duncan would've been a career loser without Robinson, Ginobili, and Parker.

Kobe would've been a career loser without Gasol and Shaq.

It took LeBron to join with Wade and Bosh still at the peak of their primes to win a championship, and they struggled to get it.

Jordan didn't accomplish anything until he was joined with Pippen, and even then it took them about 4 years together to get it.

Kevin Garnett in all his career seldom had help. The only year he did have help, they were making a big run in the playoffs, but one of their key players went down in the conference finals. And Garnett was a monster that year.

I can't believe people still think Jordan, Duncan and Kobe won titles by themselves. They had great players around them, so did Jordan. Ginobili, Gasol, Pippen, and Parker are so underrated. Also, how can people forget Shaq? Shaq!?!?!
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: scaryjerry on February 10, 2013, 11:09:04 AM
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.



Yawn.

Kg had made out of the first round exactly one time before becoming a Celtic
Pierce just twice before the big 3 era in a pitiful east

Frankly they were career losers without each other...stop acting like they were Duncan and Kobe

Duncan would've been a career loser without Robinson, Ginobili, and Parker.

Kobe would've been a career loser without Gasol and Shaq.

It took LeBron to join with Wade and Bosh still at the peak of their primes to win a championship, and they struggled to get it.

Jordan didn't accomplish anything until he was joined with Pippen, and even then it took them about 4 years together to get it.

Kevin Garnett in all his career seldom had help. The only year he did have help, they were making a big run in the playoffs, but one of their key players went down in the conference finals. And Garnett was a monster that year.


Duncan I disagree completely on...Robinson would've been the career loser without him..Duncan made ginobli and Parker and they weren't all that great when they won

Kobe, you have a point.

Lebron you do not..he dragged a crappy team deep in the playoffs every year.

Also cut the excuses for kg...in his prime as a face of his franchise he couldn't drag his team anywhere, and couldn't get them even to the playoffs for several years before coming to Boston.....he often had the teammates he had because of his bloated contract.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: scaryjerry on February 10, 2013, 11:10:21 AM
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.



Yawn.

Kg had made out of the first round exactly one time before becoming a Celtic
Pierce just twice before the big 3 era in a pitiful east

Frankly they were career losers without each other...stop acting like they were Duncan and Kobe

Duncan would've been a career loser without Robinson, Ginobili, and Parker.

Kobe would've been a career loser without Gasol and Shaq.

It took LeBron to join with Wade and Bosh still at the peak of their primes to win a championship, and they struggled to get it.

Jordan didn't accomplish anything until he was joined with Pippen, and even then it took them about 4 years together to get it.

Kevin Garnett in all his career seldom had help. The only year he did have help, they were making a big run in the playoffs, but one of their key players went down in the conference finals. And Garnett was a monster that year.

I can't believe people still think Jordan, Duncan and Kobe won titles by themselves. They had great players around them, so did Jordan. Ginobili, Gasol, Pippen, and Parker are so underrated. Also, how can people forget Shaq? Shaq!?!?!


No one said they won titles alone?


Let me know when kg was the only player on a teams roster, thanks


He had little help because of his own contract
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 10, 2013, 11:49:26 AM
screw 'playoff Rondo' -- playoff Rondo hasn't won squat
can we PLEASE talk about 'championship Rondo' -- the role player who avg 10/6/4 or something like that...we still have a KG and a PP and to think they won't be vintage in the playoffs is dangerous. 2008 was ball movement and spacing.
this doesn't have to be different but would be if we had a ball dominant Rondo.

I appreciate his greatness and some games we would need it. but i don't think we have to be as dependent on him as people are making us out to be.



Yawn.

Kg had made out of the first round exactly one time before becoming a Celtic
Pierce just twice before the big 3 era in a pitiful east

Frankly they were career losers without each other...stop acting like they were Duncan and Kobe

Duncan would've been a career loser without Robinson, Ginobili, and Parker.

Kobe would've been a career loser without Gasol and Shaq.

It took LeBron to join with Wade and Bosh still at the peak of their primes to win a championship, and they struggled to get it.

Jordan didn't accomplish anything until he was joined with Pippen, and even then it took them about 4 years together to get it.

Kevin Garnett in all his career seldom had help. The only year he did have help, they were making a big run in the playoffs, but one of their key players went down in the conference finals. And Garnett was a monster that year.


Duncan I disagree completely on...Robinson would've been the career loser without him..Duncan made ginobli and Parker and they weren't all that great when they won

Highly inaccurate. Parker was huge, and Ginobili has been great for them, underrated player because of Pop keeping his minutes down, and him coming off the bench, particularly when they had Bowen as a incredible wing defender.

Quote
Kobe, you have a point.

Lebron you do not..he dragged a crappy team deep in the playoffs every year.

By your definition of career loser, LeBron is a career loser... and the East was weak overall, let's not kid ourselves.

Quote
Also cut the excuses for kg...in his prime as a face of his franchise he couldn't drag his team anywhere, and couldn't get them even to the playoffs for several years before coming to Boston.....he often had the teammates he had because of his bloated contract.

All of the above is irrelevant, and has zero bearing on his capability to play the game, and win games.

Or should we forget the mess McHale was as a GM, particularly costing their team drafting opportunities, and drafts are the key to get talented players at low cost to balance the team's payroll.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: scaryjerry on February 10, 2013, 12:49:09 PM
It's totally ok .. I hear all the time the theory rondo is only a winner because of the players around him.

Let's face it...Kg couldn't win Jack and never did without great teammates either...thanks :)

My explanation of career loser was 12 years in the league and once out of the first round as a perennial all star and "franchise player" let me know when Lebron did that
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: hpantazo on February 10, 2013, 12:55:55 PM
It's totally ok .. I hear all the time the theory rondo is only a winner because of the players around him.

Let's face it...Kg couldn't win Jack and never did without great teammates either...thanks :)

You still have not made a valid argument as to why some players are "winners" and others "career losers" in your book.

KG was surrounded by a bunch of scrubs in Minny. Not a single player that came anywhere near the talent of a Ginoboli or Parker. Heck, not even near a Sean Elliot!

Spreewell, Olowakandi, and Wally Sczerbiak were awful.

Lebron had significantly better teams on the Cavs than KG ever had in Minny, and Lebron still could't win a ring even when the league was weak.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: LilRip on February 10, 2013, 01:02:44 PM
But no winning streak before the all-star break has ever meant anything significant. We are, as we have ever been; waiting to see if the team can really keep up this style of play.

This.

I don't think this current winning streak should be the biggest and clearest indication whether to trade Rondo or not. trading an allstar-level player would need a deeper reason than a nice 6-game win streak in Feb.

Now, I'm all for trading Rondo, but only if we get something of high value in return like a legit big man who can impact games both on offense and defense. I think the flaw is that when people hear "we should trade Rondo", they treat it as if he's gonna be some salary dump and we'll get some bums like Jodie Meeks and Antawn Jamison in return simply because "the team is playing so well without him".
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 10, 2013, 01:37:16 PM
It's totally ok .. I hear all the time the theory rondo is only a winner because of the players around him.

Let's face it...Kg couldn't win Jack and never did without great teammates either...thanks :)

You still have not made a valid argument as to why some players are "winners" and others "career losers" in your book.

KG was surrounded by a bunch of scrubs in Minny. Not a single player that came anywhere near the talent of a Ginoboli or Parker. Heck, not even near a Sean Elliot!

Spreewell, Olowakandi, and Wally Sczerbiak were awful.

Lebron had significantly better teams on the Cavs than KG ever had in Minny, and Lebron still could't win a ring even when the league was weak.

Yes. Correctamundo
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 10, 2013, 02:31:44 PM
But no winning streak before the all-star break has ever meant anything significant. We are, as we have ever been; waiting to see if the team can really keep up this style of play.

This.

I don't think this current winning streak should be the biggest and clearest indication whether to trade Rondo or not. trading an allstar-level player would need a deeper reason than a nice 6-game win streak in Feb.

Now, I'm all for trading Rondo, but only if we get something of high value in return like a legit big man who can impact games both on offense and defense. I think the flaw is that when people hear "we should trade Rondo", they treat it as if he's gonna be some salary dump and we'll get some bums like Jodie Meeks and Antawn Jamison in return simply because "the team is playing so well without him".

I disagree regarding the win streak.  Its not Like we have just scraped through 1 point victories against garbage teams.  Many of the wins have been big ones (e.g. the 20+ blowout of the streaking Lakers) and a number of them were against playoff contenders. I think our defense improved significantly when AB returned, and I think it improved significantly again when Rondo stopped playing.  I think that defense has been the thing winning us games over this stretch, and that's why I think losing To do has helped us.  Our offensive numbers aren't really any worse, so of you do the math...

I agree though that we shouldnt trade Rondo just for the sake of a trade. If we can get a long term solution to a problem, then I wpuldnt hessitate.  For exampldesperately need a bigtine scorer to take over when Pierce retires - if we could get Eric Gordan (who I feel has the potential to one day be a 25 PPG scorer)for Rondo then I'd definately consider it in order to fill that need.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 10, 2013, 02:33:46 PM
If a win streak before the all-star break doesn't matter, why should a lose streak matter? You guys were all going nuts during the 6-game lose streak... does it not matter? Something's not symmetrical here.

It obviously matters. We beat the Clippers without Paul (low playoff seed), the Heat (contender), streaking Lakers (low playoff seed), the Raptors (fresh off brand new Gay and with confidence), Magic (a bad team that we usually lose against) and Kings (see above)
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: indeedproceed on February 10, 2013, 02:47:07 PM
If a win streak before the all-star break doesn't matter, why should a lose streak matter? You guys were all going nuts during the 6-game lose streak... does it not matter? Something's not symmetrical here.

Losing streaks are always tough. But, if you're talking less than 10 games before the all-star break, and there aren't multiples of them (as in one really bad stretch), and aside from the streak the team looks good, they usually don't matter.

The trick is to figure out the true pattern from the outliers.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: CapnDunks on February 10, 2013, 03:14:35 PM
Stepping up in the playoffs wins chips. I wish rondo phoned it in harder during the regular season this year, maybe he'd be healthy.

We don't know how well this team will do without him. But there is no argument that playoff Rondo isn't a good thing.

last year.
17.3 6.7 11.9 with 2.4 seals in 42 minutes per game

Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 10, 2013, 03:21:35 PM
Stepping up in the playoffs wins chips. I wish rondo phoned it in harder during the regular season this year, maybe he'd be healthy.

Well, he got hurt in a game that was a blowout, and then they let the team get back into the game.

So if him and we actually played hard from the get go in the 2nd half, the injury might have not happened, so...
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: LooseCannon on February 10, 2013, 04:54:30 PM
If a win streak before the all-star break doesn't matter, why should a lose streak matter? You guys were all going nuts during the 6-game lose streak... does it not matter? Something's not symmetrical here.

It's called confirmation bias.
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 10, 2013, 05:05:31 PM
Stepping up in the playoffs wins chips. I wish rondo phoned it in harder during the regular season this year, maybe he'd be healthy.

Well, he got hurt in a game that was a blowout, and then they let the team get back into the game.

So if him and we actually played hard from the get go in the 2nd half, the injury might have not happened, so...

What are "chips"?
Title: Re: Enough of the playoff Rondo argument
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 05:14:03 PM
Stepping up in the playoffs wins chips. I wish rondo phoned it in harder during the regular season this year, maybe he'd be healthy.

Well, he got hurt in a game that was a blowout, and then they let the team get back into the game.

So if him and we actually played hard from the get go in the 2nd half, the injury might have not happened, so...

  The team fell flat in the second half and gave up a big lead, Doc stemmed the tide by taking out all of the starters except for Rondo. One would assume that if the other starters played as hard then as they have since we'd have been into Gino time in the 3rd quarter.