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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ScoobyDoo on February 09, 2013, 01:12:47 PM

Title: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: ScoobyDoo on February 09, 2013, 01:12:47 PM
What if you could turn Rondo into something that would help us win the championship this year and set us up longer term as well?

Boston:
Rondo, Melo, Courtney Lee and Bass
Sacramento:
Cousins, Evans, Thompson, Salmons and Garcia

It works numbers wise:

Sacramento does a salary dump and starts over with:
Rondo: Best player in the trade, franchise point
Melo: A young project center with potential
Bass: A solid PF behind Thomas Robinson
Lee: A solid off guard
Their own lottery pick

Melo / Hayes
Robinson / Bass
Outlaw
Thornton / Lee
Rondo / Thomas
* Lottery pick

They completely change the character and personality of their team. They start fresh with Rondo, a lottery pick, cap space and some good young pieces( Thornton, Thomas, Robinson, Bass, Melo and Lee)

For the Celtics, we get juiced for a playoff run this year and get set up moving forward.

Cousins / Collins / Wilcox
KG / Thompson / Wilcox
Pierce / Green / Garcia
Tyreke Evans / Jet / Salmons
Bradley / Barbosa / Jet

If I'm Sacramento, I would seriously consider that. With Rondo, Thornton, Thomas Robinson and a lottery pick you could quickly put together a young, high character and very talented team. You change your team dynamics completely. Sacramento is a lottery team as currently constructed and Cousins is a head case. Why not take that shot?

For us, if we can't raise a ring this year with that team something is really wrong.

Doc and KG get a shot at solving Cousins immaturity issues, probably worth the gamble.

If that pans out, we've got the following in place moving forward after KG and Pierce go.

Cousins
Sully
Green
Evans
Bradley

   
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: BballTim on February 09, 2013, 01:17:39 PM


  If you moved Bradley, Sully and Green to the Kings would you consider them to be set up as contenders for the long term? Because that's what we'll be after KG moves on.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 09, 2013, 01:18:37 PM
Sacramento says no, for two reasons.

1.  They have no idea how Rondo will play when he returns

2.  They aren't letting go of DMC just yet.  If they move to Seattle next season, maybe Cousins' attitude will change.  Who knows?
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: ghost_of_davidthirdkill on February 09, 2013, 01:32:42 PM
What if you could turn Rondo into something that would help us win the championship this year and set us up longer term as well?

Boston:
Rondo, Melo, Courtney Lee and Bass
Sacramento:
Cousins, Evans, Thompson, Salmons and Garcia

It works numbers wise:

Sacramento does a salary dump and starts over with:
Rondo: Best player in the trade, franchise point
Melo: A young project center with potential
Bass: A solid PF behind Thomas Robinson
Lee: A solid off guard
Their own lottery pick

Melo / Hayes
Robinson / Bass
Outlaw
Thornton / Lee
Rondo / Thomas
* Lottery pick

They completely change the character and personality of their team. They start fresh with Rondo, a lottery pick, cap space and some good young pieces( Thornton, Thomas, Robinson, Bass, Melo and Lee)

For the Celtics, we get juiced for a playoff run this year and get set up moving forward.

Cousins / Collins / Wilcox
KG / Thompson / Wilcox
Pierce / Green / Garcia
Tyreke Evans / Jet / Salmons
Bradley / Barbosa / Jet

If I'm Sacramento, I would seriously consider that. With Rondo, Thornton, Thomas Robinson and a lottery pick you could quickly put together a young, high character and very talented team. You change your team dynamics completely. Sacramento is a lottery team as currently constructed and Cousins is a head case. Why not take that shot?

For us, if we can't raise a ring this year with that team something is really wrong.

Doc and KG get a shot at solving Cousins immaturity issues, probably worth the gamble.

If that pans out, we've got the following in place moving forward after KG and Pierce go.

Cousins
Sully
Green
Evans
Bradley

   


I think if you simplify the trade by just making it Rondo and Melo for DMC and Salmons you might get it done.

Granted, this is all contingent on Sacramento being done with DMC, which they might be.  They might have come to the conclusion that he's not going to change while he's there.  If that's the case, why not trade for an all-star point guard in Rondo.  Yes they have to wait until next year for him, but it's not like they have any hope for the playoffs this year.  Plus, they unload Salmons and his bloated contract.

The C's get the big man they need presently and in the future.  While I agree with most that DMC is a knucklehead, I think a lot of that is due to being in a losing environment with no veteran leadership.  I think he could truyly thrive with the Celtics.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: gpap on February 09, 2013, 01:56:39 PM
I think Sac might take back Rondo (as I've suggested in past threads) but I am not quite sure they'd be ready to give up on Cousins just yet.

I think they'd either wait for a better offer for him, or possibly build around him for when the team moves to Seattle.

I do think it's possible however you can possibly land some combo of Evans, Salmons and Thompson for Rondo and filler (Bradley and Bass.)
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Who on February 09, 2013, 02:00:26 PM
I've decided I don't want Danny Ainge to trade Rondo for Cousins.

I do like Cousins and his chances of becoming a high level center but I don't want to go through all the growing pains Cousins needs to go through to get there. I don't want to watch that. It will be infuriating.

I'd rather just let Cousins get on with that somewhere else and watch from a distance.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Cman on February 09, 2013, 02:01:22 PM
No. We'd only get pennies on the dollar cuz no one will trade for him unless he is healthy.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: BballTim on February 09, 2013, 02:03:47 PM
I've decided I don't want Danny Ainge to trade Rondo for Cousins.

I do like Cousins and his chances of becoming a high level center but I don't want to go through all the growing pains Cousins needs to go through to get there. I don't want to watch that. It will be infuriating.

I'd rather just let Cousins get on with that somewhere else and watch from a distance.

  That's similar to what I've said. Some team is going to give Cousins a big contract, the more fortunate team is likely the team that signs Cousins to the contract after that where he's more worth what he'll be getting.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: csfansince60s on February 09, 2013, 03:11:11 PM
What if you could turn Rondo into something that would help us win the championship this year and set us up longer term as well?

While this is the ideal: to have Rondo traded for pieces to help us win now AND in the future. That would be an incredible coup by Ainge if he could do that. While I agree that it is possible to accomplish both objectives with a Rondo trade (Suns, Kings, Wiz,Jazz, Griz), it is unlikely and tremendously dificult to do.

I think that the more realistic question (and more easily attainable result) is "would we trade Rondo for something that makes us championsip contenders this year and next, and not so much after that?" OR "do we trade Rondo for pieces to set up our future"?.

Rondo, the player, is not helping us to win this year (despite that some posters feel that he will by addition by subtraction, i.e. we play better without him than with him).  His impact in the playoffs can't be underestimated.

So the question becomes "does Rondo, the trade asset, give us enough to get over the top this year and next to give us two good runs?"

If we are in WIN NOW mode, I think that the  answer is obvious: trade Rondo NOW for less value perhaps than he could could garner down the road when proven healthy for a big like Gortat, Dalembert and pieces,, Milsap, Cousins, AlJeff, M. Gasol, Nene, Okafor, who could potentially push us over the top now.

I think that the second option of trading Rondo for assets that could help us in the future and not so much now is a non-starter, because a healed Rondo is better than those potential assets.

I don't think that as constituted, we can win this year without help (a big). The better the big, the better chance we have to win. Rondo gets us a far better big than someone we could get off the scrap heap.

Bass + our 1st this year, plus Melo could get us  a Dalembert Otherwise, we have to give up one of our for gurads. I don't think that is prudent.
 
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Neurotic Guy on February 09, 2013, 03:56:24 PM
No. We'd only get pennies on the dollar cuz no one will trade for him unless he is healthy.

Not sure you are correct about pennies on the dollar, but his value is certainly diminished by the injury.  Imagine we didn't have Rondo and were a lottery team -- what would you trade for an injured Derek Rose?  More than pennies, right?  Not full value, but not pennies. 

That said, not sure I'd want to bargain price him.  But as an example, could we get a Gortat and Dragic package for him?  2 decent players in need positions for an all-star -- sounds like about 70 cents on the dollar.    Would you consider that if you are Phoenix? Would Danny consider it?
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on February 09, 2013, 04:09:05 PM
One thing you trade mongers forget...We really have NO ball handler if we don't have Rondo...so, if other teams PRESS us..we could be screwed....Rondo is one more adaptation away from being super GREAT...right now he is great.....and STILL getting better...and he isn't old.....and what will you say if pp or kg pulls up an injury...i hate to say it...but you have to deal with reality..though some like to avoid that here..as they are both playing VERY hard and long...and are not young. Without PP or KG...the only way you'll get people to come HERE is to play with Rondo......a passing pg like that....the same ones who say trade rondo aren't talking so big as they did about deron williams anymore...as we watched him fade.....we aren't getting westbrook or chris paul....but we have rondo still....so look elsewhere....keep rondo i say..!
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 09, 2013, 04:16:16 PM
What if you could turn Rondo into something that would help us win the championship this year and set us up longer term as well?

While this is the ideal: to have Rondo traded for pieces to help us win now AND in the future. That would be an incredible coup by Ainge if he could do that. While I agree that it is possible to accomplish both objectives with a Rondo trade (Suns, Kings, Wiz,Jazz, Griz), it is unlikely and tremendously dificult to do.

I think that the more realistic question (and more easily attainable result) is "would we trade Rondo for something that makes us championsip contenders this year and next, and not so much after that?" OR "do we trade Rondo for pieces to set up our future"?.

Rondo, the player, is not helping us to win this year (despite that some posters feel that he will by addition by subtraction, i.e. we play better without him than with him).  His impact in the playoffs can't be underestimated.

So the question becomes "does Rondo, the trade asset, give us enough to get over the top this year and next to give us two good runs?"

If we are in WIN NOW mode, I think that the  answer is obvious: trade Rondo NOW for less value perhaps than he could could garner down the road when proven healthy for a big like Gortat, Dalembert and pieces,, Milsap, Cousins, AlJeff, M. Gasol, Nene, Okafor, who could potentially push us over the top now.

I think that the second option of trading Rondo for assets that could help us in the future and not so much now is a non-starter, because a healed Rondo is better than those potential assets.

I don't think that as constituted, we can win this year without help (a big). The better the big, the better chance we have to win. Rondo gets us a far better big than someone we could get off the scrap heap.

Bass + our 1st this year, plus Melo could get us  a Dalembert Otherwise, we have to give up one of our for gurads. I don't think that is prudent.

I agree completely. I personally prefer the win now approach. I think of the bigs you list Jefferson, Milsap, and Gortat would all help, and I also think we could probably get Josh Smith for Rondo.

I don't think we can get Gasol, and I don't think Nene or Cousins would help enough (for different reasons).

But if I'm Danny I am looking to move Rondo. I don't think his value is all that low, especially with this news about how it's only a partial ACL tear. I also think most GMs would view Rondo as a guy who would (a) rehab hard, and (b) have a real chip on his shoulder because of being traded.

Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Clench123 on February 09, 2013, 04:29:03 PM
After 6 regular season wins?  Are people crazy?
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: pearljammer10 on February 09, 2013, 04:31:34 PM
Ugh. This again.

No. For the twenty fifth million time No! To any rondo trade or anything involving the Kings. Not happening and Noooo!
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: csfansince60s on February 09, 2013, 04:35:26 PM
Not sure you are correct about pennies on the dollar, but his value is certainly diminished by the injury.  Imagine we didn't have Rondo and were a lottery team -- what would you trade for an injured Derek Rose?  More than pennies, right?  Not full value, but not pennies. 

That said, not sure I'd want to bargain price him.  But as an example, could we get a Gortat and Dragic package for him?  2 decent players in need positions for an all-star -- sounds like about 70 cents on the dollar.    Would you consider that if you are Phoenix? Would Danny consider it?

I proposed this Phoenix trade too earlier in the week, and I think both side should/would seriously consider it.

For Phoenix, they lose most of the rest of their games and get better positioned for the lottery.

In addition, Suns have expressed a very real interest in Josh Smith, Rondo's buddy. Having Rondo on board would be a great enticement for Smith.

Suns also move the disgruntled Gortat and get an upgrade at PG.

For us, we get a versatile, tough, Polish Hammer rebounder, shotblocker who passes well and can hit the 15 footer on the pop and can get to the basket on the roll. He also runs the floor well.

In Dragic, we get a more than adequate point guard.

Both Dragic and Gortat, with our current lineup, extend our window to two years after this one, while enhancing our chances this year.

I do it.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: KG_ended_Bias on February 09, 2013, 04:41:51 PM
Rondo for Al Jefferson, Cousins even Smith would be perfect get back value that can actually help us win now. I would stay away from Gortat not great without a good facilitating PG & Milsap is only 6'8. We need size or great rebounding with shotblocking skill. Hence the only reason I brought up Smith he does everything except shoot jumpers. While Al & Cousins gives us girth/beef along with an awesome back to the basket beastlike post game we never had in the KG era. I don't count Shaq too small a sample size.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Neurotic Guy on February 09, 2013, 05:04:28 PM
One thing you trade mongers forget...We really have NO ball handler if we don't have Rondo...so, if other teams PRESS us..we could be screwed....Rondo is one more adaptation away from being super GREAT...right now he is great.....and STILL getting better...and he isn't old.....and what will you say if pp or kg pulls up an injury...i hate to say it...but you have to deal with reality..though some like to avoid that here..as they are both playing VERY hard and long...and are not young. Without PP or KG...the only way you'll get people to come HERE is to play with Rondo......a passing pg like that....the same ones who say trade rondo aren't talking so big as they did about deron williams anymore...as we watched him fade.....we aren't getting westbrook or chris paul....but we have rondo still....so look elsewhere....keep rondo i say..!

I know there are trade mongers in the commmunity, but this thread doesn't seem to have any.  Posts involve +/- hypotheticals, food for thought.  Sounds to me like most of us are very cautious about a Rondo trade. 
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on February 09, 2013, 05:19:09 PM
One thing you trade mongers forget...We really have NO ball handler if we don't have Rondo...so, if other teams PRESS us..we could be screwed....Rondo is one more adaptation away from being super GREAT...right now he is great.....and STILL getting better...and he isn't old.....and what will you say if pp or kg pulls up an injury...i hate to say it...but you have to deal with reality..though some like to avoid that here..as they are both playing VERY hard and long...and are not young. Without PP or KG...the only way you'll get people to come HERE is to play with Rondo......a passing pg like that....the same ones who say trade rondo aren't talking so big as they did about deron williams anymore...as we watched him fade.....we aren't getting westbrook or chris paul....but we have rondo still....so look elsewhere....keep rondo i say..!

I know there are trade mongers in the commmunity, but this thread doesn't seem to have any.  Posts involve +/- hypotheticals, food for thought.  Sounds to me like most of us are very cautious about a Rondo trade.
maybe i was just coopoed up too long this weekend..!
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: timobusa on February 09, 2013, 06:30:58 PM
Would you move Rose out of Chicago? Since they're playing so well without him they have the 4th or 5th seed right now.

Answer is NO, they will be better with him back.

So many ungrateful fans.
Do you all have selective memories?

Rondo has done more good than bad for this team.

SMH..
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Tradetime on February 09, 2013, 06:59:27 PM
Would you move Rose out of Chicago? Since they're playing so well without him they have the 4th or 5th seed right now.

Answer is NO, they will be better with him back.

So many ungrateful fans.
Do you all have selective memories?

Rondo has done more good than bad for this team.

SMH..

I don't recall in recent years any Derrick Rose led Chicago team sitting three games under .500 this late in the year.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Onslaught on February 09, 2013, 07:18:13 PM
Would you move Rose out of Chicago? Since they're playing so well without him they have the 4th or 5th seed right now.

Answer is NO, they will be better with him back.

So many ungrateful fans.
Do you all have selective memories?

Rondo has done more good than bad for this team.

SMH..

I don't recall in recent years any Derrick Rose led Chicago team sitting three games under .500 this late in the year.
He's team is better.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 09, 2013, 08:01:26 PM
Would you move Rose out of Chicago? Since they're playing so well without him they have the 4th or 5th seed right now.

Answer is NO, they will be better with him back.

So many ungrateful fans.
Do you all have selective memories?

Rondo has done more good than bad for this team.

SMH..

Rose is an MVP and a franchise player. Rondo isn't.

Also, we have one more year at most with Pierce and Garnett playing at a high level. The motive to "win now" is much higher for us than it is for Chicago, who has a much younger core.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: cltc5 on February 09, 2013, 08:19:48 PM
One thing you trade mongers forget...We really have NO ball handler if we don't have Rondo...so, if other teams PRESS us..we could be screwed....Rondo is one more adaptation away from being super GREAT...right now he is great.....and STILL getting better...and he isn't old.....and what will you say if pp or kg pulls up an injury...i hate to say it...but you have to deal with reality..though some like to avoid that here..as they are both playing VERY hard and long...and are not young. Without PP or KG...the only way you'll get people to come HERE is to play with Rondo......a passing pg like that....the same ones who say trade rondo aren't talking so big as they did about deron williams anymore...as we watched him fade.....we aren't getting westbrook or chris paul....but we have rondo still....so look elsewhere....keep rondo i say..!

We;ve been pressed this year and have been fine.  Rondo's a great passer but a decent ball handler.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Juneauz on February 09, 2013, 08:23:25 PM
No.
No way.
Absolutely not.

Next question?
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: ChefEricT on February 09, 2013, 08:38:45 PM
First off, I'm from the side of the fence where we don't trade Rondo.  But if we were going to trade him, now would be the worst time to do it.  Players are a lot like stocks, and his stock is as low as its been in a long time.  Knee injury and the team is playing better since he went down.  Again, I don't believe that we are better without him, but that's not the argument here.  You don't sell apple stock after its gone down in value a few days in a row.  You wait until it comes back up, if you must sell it at all.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: dreamgreen on February 10, 2013, 08:54:03 AM
I wouldn't take Cousins period. The guy is an ass...., leads the league in technicals, seems like a quitter, and on and on.

Also I don't like his game, I'm tired of big guys that want to be guards. If your big play like it, man up and dominate the inside.

I would trade Rondo, I'm just not sure for whom.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 10, 2013, 09:29:52 AM
a big......like Cousins, Marc Gasol ,  Milsap,  Née Née,  Love,  ZBo,  ,     toss in Bass too.

someone who can freakin rebound the ball and play defense in the paint......and is not scard to stand in the paint. and bump and fight for rebounds.

Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 09:49:08 AM
One thing you trade mongers forget...We really have NO ball handler if we don't have Rondo...so, if other teams PRESS us..we could be screwed....Rondo is one more adaptation away from being super GREAT...right now he is great.....and STILL getting better...and he isn't old.....and what will you say if pp or kg pulls up an injury...i hate to say it...but you have to deal with reality..though some like to avoid that here..as they are both playing VERY hard and long...and are not young. Without PP or KG...the only way you'll get people to come HERE is to play with Rondo......a passing pg like that....the same ones who say trade rondo aren't talking so big as they did about deron williams anymore...as we watched him fade.....we aren't getting westbrook or chris paul....but we have rondo still....so look elsewhere....keep rondo i say..!

We;ve been pressed this year and have been fine.  Rondo's a great passer but a decent ball handler.

  I'm trying to think of the last time the Celts had a player that was clearly a better ball handler than Rondo and I'm drawing a complete blank.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 10, 2013, 09:50:39 AM
One thing you trade mongers forget...We really have NO ball handler if we don't have Rondo...so, if other teams PRESS us..we could be screwed....Rondo is one more adaptation away from being super GREAT...right now he is great.....and STILL getting better...and he isn't old.....and what will you say if pp or kg pulls up an injury...i hate to say it...but you have to deal with reality..though some like to avoid that here..as they are both playing VERY hard and long...and are not young. Without PP or KG...the only way you'll get people to come HERE is to play with Rondo......a passing pg like that....the same ones who say trade rondo aren't talking so big as they did about deron williams anymore...as we watched him fade.....we aren't getting westbrook or chris paul....but we have rondo still....so look elsewhere....keep rondo i say..!

We;ve been pressed this year and have been fine.  Rondo's a great passer but a decent ball handler.

  I'm trying to think of the last time the Celts had a player that was clearly a better ball handler than Rondo and I'm drawing a complete blank.

Brandon Bass?
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 10:00:37 AM
One thing you trade mongers forget...We really have NO ball handler if we don't have Rondo...so, if other teams PRESS us..we could be screwed....Rondo is one more adaptation away from being super GREAT...right now he is great.....and STILL getting better...and he isn't old.....and what will you say if pp or kg pulls up an injury...i hate to say it...but you have to deal with reality..though some like to avoid that here..as they are both playing VERY hard and long...and are not young. Without PP or KG...the only way you'll get people to come HERE is to play with Rondo......a passing pg like that....the same ones who say trade rondo aren't talking so big as they did about deron williams anymore...as we watched him fade.....we aren't getting westbrook or chris paul....but we have rondo still....so look elsewhere....keep rondo i say..!

We;ve been pressed this year and have been fine.  Rondo's a great passer but a decent ball handler.

  I'm trying to think of the last time the Celts had a player that was clearly a better ball handler than Rondo and I'm drawing a complete blank.

Brandon Bass?

  I don't think so although the previous poster may agree with you.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 10, 2013, 10:04:45 AM
One thing you trade mongers forget...We really have NO ball handler if we don't have Rondo...so, if other teams PRESS us..we could be screwed....Rondo is one more adaptation away from being super GREAT...right now he is great.....and STILL getting better...and he isn't old.....and what will you say if pp or kg pulls up an injury...i hate to say it...but you have to deal with reality..though some like to avoid that here..as they are both playing VERY hard and long...and are not young. Without PP or KG...the only way you'll get people to come HERE is to play with Rondo......a passing pg like that....the same ones who say trade rondo aren't talking so big as they did about deron williams anymore...as we watched him fade.....we aren't getting westbrook or chris paul....but we have rondo still....so look elsewhere....keep rondo i say..!

We;ve been pressed this year and have been fine.  Rondo's a great passer but a decent ball handler.

  I'm trying to think of the last time the Celts had a player that was clearly a better ball handler than Rondo and I'm drawing a complete blank.

Brandon Bass?

  I don't think so although the previous poster may agree with you.

I was kidding but we,must have had great ball handlers. I'm relatively new to being a fan so I don't know anyone in particular... Nate?
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: csfansince60s on February 10, 2013, 10:38:25 AM
One thing you trade mongers forget...We really have NO ball handler if we don't have Rondo...so, if other teams PRESS us..we could be screwed....Rondo is one more adaptation away from being super GREAT...right now he is great.....and STILL getting better...and he isn't old.....and what will you say if pp or kg pulls up an injury...i hate to say it...but you have to deal with reality..though some like to avoid that here..as they are both playing VERY hard and long...and are not young. Without PP or KG...the only way you'll get people to come HERE is to play with Rondo......a passing pg like that....the same ones who say trade rondo aren't talking so big as they did about deron williams anymore...as we watched him fade.....we aren't getting westbrook or chris paul....but we have rondo still....so look elsewhere....keep rondo i say..!

We;ve been pressed this year and have been fine.  Rondo's a great passer but a decent ball handler.

  I'm trying to think of the last time the Celts had a player that was clearly a better ball handler than Rondo and I'm drawing a complete blank.

Over 10 years ago: Kenny Anderson
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 10:53:53 AM
One thing you trade mongers forget...We really have NO ball handler if we don't have Rondo...so, if other teams PRESS us..we could be screwed....Rondo is one more adaptation away from being super GREAT...right now he is great.....and STILL getting better...and he isn't old.....and what will you say if pp or kg pulls up an injury...i hate to say it...but you have to deal with reality..though some like to avoid that here..as they are both playing VERY hard and long...and are not young. Without PP or KG...the only way you'll get people to come HERE is to play with Rondo......a passing pg like that....the same ones who say trade rondo aren't talking so big as they did about deron williams anymore...as we watched him fade.....we aren't getting westbrook or chris paul....but we have rondo still....so look elsewhere....keep rondo i say..!

We;ve been pressed this year and have been fine.  Rondo's a great passer but a decent ball handler.

  I'm trying to think of the last time the Celts had a player that was clearly a better ball handler than Rondo and I'm drawing a complete blank.

Over 10 years ago: Kenny Anderson

  No freaking way was Kenny Anderson a better ballhandler than Rondo when he was on the Celts. Yikes.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 10, 2013, 11:11:26 AM
This borders idiotic, he would not pass a physical.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: csfansince60s on February 10, 2013, 11:25:18 AM
One thing you trade mongers forget...We really have NO ball handler if we don't have Rondo...so, if other teams PRESS us..we could be screwed....Rondo is one more adaptation away from being super GREAT...right now he is great.....and STILL getting better...and he isn't old.....and what will you say if pp or kg pulls up an injury...i hate to say it...but you have to deal with reality..though some like to avoid that here..as they are both playing VERY hard and long...and are not young. Without PP or KG...the only way you'll get people to come HERE is to play with Rondo......a passing pg like that....the same ones who say trade rondo aren't talking so big as they did about deron williams anymore...as we watched him fade.....we aren't getting westbrook or chris paul....but we have rondo still....so look elsewhere....keep rondo i say..!

We;ve been pressed this year and have been fine.  Rondo's a great passer but a decent ball handler.

  I'm trying to think of the last time the Celts had a player that was clearly a better ball handler than Rondo and I'm drawing a complete blank.

Over 10 years ago: Kenny Anderson

  No freaking way was Kenny Anderson a better ballhandler than Rondo when he was on the Celts. Yikes.

Not only was Kenney Anderson a better ball-handler than Rondo, he passed better and took it to the hole better, which were all set up withhis ball-handling skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FByBHhS14js

See especially at the 2:30 mark, and yuh. highlight clips, I understand , can make the worst players look good, BUT, we are talking about highlight worthy skills that we are comparing, aren't we, when we are comparing superlatives.

I also will state that if Kenny Anderson had the Celtics team that Rondo has had, we, as a team, would've been better and Anderson's numbers and impact would have been better. The teams Anderson played on for us sucked in comparison to even the twilight years of KG/PP  teams.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Donoghus on February 10, 2013, 11:28:20 AM
Kenny Anderson was a serviceable PG when he was with the Celtics but there is absolutely no way that he was a better ball handler than Rondo.  Especially Celtics era Anderson.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 10, 2013, 11:31:09 AM
Quote
I also will state that if Kenny Anderson had the Celtics team that Rondo has had, we, as a team, would've been better and Anderson's numbers and impact would have been better.

I didn't know it was April Fool's Day, ****.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Who on February 10, 2013, 11:31:59 AM
Kenny Anderson is one of the best ball-handlers I have ever seen.

But the man was a shadow of former self during his time with the Celtics. 
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: lon3lytoaster on February 10, 2013, 11:34:10 AM
I've seen probably 99.9 percent of the games Rajon has played in his NBA career. I love him and consider him as true a Celtic as Paul Pierce. With that said, I move him if it makes us better as a whole.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 11:35:30 AM
Kenny Anderson is one of the best ball-handlers I have ever seen.

But the man was a shadow of former self during his time with the Celtics.

  Sure, you could possibly argue that Marbury was a very good ballhandler as well, obviously before he was on the Celts.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 10, 2013, 11:48:19 AM
Kenny Anderson is one of the best ball-handlers I have ever seen.

But the man was a shadow of former self during his time with the Celtics.

  Sure, you could possibly argue that Marbury was a very good ballhandler as well, obviously before he was on the Celts.

Here's the question though, did these guys actually become worse ball-handlers? Or just lose their athleticism? Or even just decide to be less flashy in favor or making the right play more often?
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: GreenEnvy on February 10, 2013, 11:53:39 AM
This borders idiotic, he would not pass a physical.

I think teams can waive physicals for injuries. Wasn't Bogut traded last year with a major injury?



As for the OP, I would trade him for anything above 80 cents on the dollar, but I was in favor of trading him for almost two years now.

I don't believe PG's can lead teams to titles in the first place, and I don't trust "pure PG's" who routinely lead mediocre (at best) offenses. I'm sure some will blame Doc, DA, his teammates, etc. (anybody and everybody but Rondo) for our usually dismal offense, but Doc is well respected (for a reason), KG and Pierce are two HoF'ers (and still All-Stars), and DA knows his stuff, can't deny that.

The fact that our offense not only doesn't look significantly worse when he is out, it often looks better says a lot to me. Our defense is clearly better without his matador impersanation (Terry may not be more capable, but he is definitely more willing to stay in front of his man).

Our assist numbers haven't dipped. Five guys with 4+ assists is better (to me) than one guy with 16, and the rest of the team with 5 combined. We haven't been getting killed on the glass any worse than when Rondo was playing.

So, our offense hasn't dropped much if at all. Our defense is better. Our passing looks better. Our rebounding is the same. We get effort every night from every player, regardless of the opponent or channel we play on.

But I keep hearing we will miss him in the playoffs. What makes the playoffs different? Is it the defense and half-court offense? Well our defense is undeniably better and I'd rather have another offensive threat out there capable of knocking down shots than a player who pounds the ball for 20 seconds.

But I understand that the competition hasn't been great (although we would have beaten the Heat soundly had they not gotten 2 flukish second chance threes in the final minute and the Lakers have gone 5-1 on the rest of their road trip). I agree with that. I will reserve my judgement on whether this team has a legit shot at making noise once we see how they perform on their west coast trip after the ASB.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 11:57:25 AM
Kenny Anderson is one of the best ball-handlers I have ever seen.

But the man was a shadow of former self during his time with the Celtics.

  Sure, you could possibly argue that Marbury was a very good ballhandler as well, obviously before he was on the Celts.

Here's the question though, did these guys actually become worse ball-handlers? Or just lose their athleticism? Or even just decide to be less flashy in favor or making the right play more often?

  I don't know if you can really separate athleticism from ball handling, since how quickly they are able to do something is important. I remember the year Cassell signed with us, there was speculation that he'd join the team while he was still on the Clips right when we were playing them. He was practically unable to bring the ball up court against Rondo, who probably didn't like hearing all the talk that Cassell was going to replace him. I don't think his being unable to dribble with Rondo pressuring him was a result of his having forgotten how to handle the ball, more that he was unable to do so as quickly as he had in the past.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 12:11:26 PM
This borders idiotic, he would not pass a physical.

I think teams can waive physicals for injuries. Wasn't Bogut traded last year with a major injury?



As for the OP, I would trade him for anything above 80 cents on the dollar, but I was in favor of trading him for almost two years now.

I don't believe PG's can lead teams to titles in the first place, and I don't trust "pure PG's" who routinely lead mediocre (at best) offenses. I'm sure some will blame Doc, DA, his teammates, etc. (anybody and everybody but Rondo) for our usually dismal offense, but Doc is well respected (for a reason), KG and Pierce are two HoF'ers (and still All-Stars), and DA knows his stuff, can't deny that.

  The reason some blame Rondo less than you do for our mediocre offense is that they have a decent understanding of why our offense is mediocre. Rondo gets player the shots that they seem to be comfortable taking and they hit those shots at an above average rate. I mean I suppose he could somehow force the bigs to go for offensive rebounds instead of getting back on defense or order KG to post up more, but there's only so much you can realistically expect a pg to do to resolve those issues.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: Evantime34 on February 10, 2013, 12:33:28 PM
Reasons not to move Rondo
1. He is injured which makes his value at an all time low.
2. When he is playing his best there is not another point guard I would rather have.
3. He is the best rebounding pg in the game, and we happen to be a rebounding deficient team.
4. He showed real progression with his jump shot this year and I expect that to continue.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: erisred on February 10, 2013, 12:35:24 PM
I'd move anybody in the right deal, so sure! The right deal won't be on the table, though. I'd certainly move a small for an equally good big... especially for *this* team.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 10, 2013, 01:07:24 PM
If the move gives us a good chance at winning a title this year, and also nets us good value, I think one has to do it. Even with the prospect of rebuild with Rondo, you might not get a better chance at winning a championship than with this group (as long as Garnett is here), so I think you have to go for it if possible.
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: GreenEnvy on February 10, 2013, 01:56:47 PM
This borders idiotic, he would not pass a physical.

I think teams can waive physicals for injuries. Wasn't Bogut traded last year with a major injury?



As for the OP, I would trade him for anything above 80 cents on the dollar, but I was in favor of trading him for almost two years now.

I don't believe PG's can lead teams to titles in the first place, and I don't trust "pure PG's" who routinely lead mediocre (at best) offenses. I'm sure some will blame Doc, DA, his teammates, etc. (anybody and everybody but Rondo) for our usually dismal offense, but Doc is well respected (for a reason), KG and Pierce are two HoF'ers (and still All-Stars), and DA knows his stuff, can't deny that.

  The reason some blame Rondo less than you do for our mediocre offense is that they have a decent understanding of why our offense is mediocre. Rondo gets player the shots that they seem to be comfortable taking and they hit those shots at an above average rate. I mean I suppose he could somehow force the bigs to go for offensive rebounds instead of getting back on defense or order KG to post up more, but there's only so much you can realistically expect a pg to do to resolve those issues.

With the ball in Rondo's hands, what are your options?
A. Find player A if/when he gets open
B. Find player B if/when he gets open
C. Find player C if/when he gets open
D. Find player D if/when he gets open
E. Take a midrange jumper
F. Penetrate and put up circus shot
G. Waste entire shot clock and throw up a last second three
I. Penetrate and get fouled

Those are your offensive options with Rondo in the game. And defenses clearly know that's the order he prefers. The rest of the team is forced to exert a ton of energy trying to get open, and usually for nothing.


The best way to resolve this issue is to not keep the ball in Rondo's hands as much. But by taking it out of his hands, you are playing 4 on 5, because he is such a non-threat as a shooter or cutter, and is way too small to set effective screens.

The media overvalue him because of his gaudy stats and his performances in nationally-televised games, which he obviously plays differently in. How many C's/Suns and C's/Magic midweek games do you think Marc Stein watches? But the other GM's don't value him nearly as high as us fans and the clueless media, because Ainge would have dealt him already (for CP3, Steph Curry maybe?).

I'm not a Rondo basher (or try not to be), but I'm certainly not an apologist.

But this team would be significantly better with someone like Marc (or maybe even Pau) Gasol or DMC or some other big who can rebound well and score decently. We have enough scorers who are also willing passers to make it work. Our current roster can score on their own. They don't need to be spoon-fed every bucket. Maybe in years past that was true, but not with guys like Barbosa, Terry, Green, Lee, and obviously Pierce. Garnett is proving he doesn't only need to take wide open 20-footers or receive lobs from the one and only RR.

Nobody knows how this season is gonna play out. Maybe they make a serious run. Maybe this team gets dusted in the first round and this whole post-ACL-injury debate is for naught. But with Rondo, what proof is there that our odds were really any better?
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 10, 2013, 01:59:19 PM
With the ball in Rondo's hands, what are your options?
A. Find player A if/when he gets open
B. Find player B if/when he gets open
C. Find player C if/when he gets open
D. Find player D if/when he gets open
E. Take a midrange jumper
F. Penetrate and put up circus shot
G. Waste entire shot clock and throw up a last second three
I. Penetrate and get fouled

With the ball in Rondo's hands, what are your options?
A. Find player A if/when he gets open
B. Find player B if/when he gets open
C. Take a midrange jumper
D. Find player C if/when he gets open
E. Run P&R, penetrate and put up easy layup
F. Find player D if/when he gets open
G. Penetrate and get fouled
H. Waste entire shot clock and throw up a last second three
I. Post-up

Isn't this what nearly all players do? O_o
Title: Re: Would you move Rondo now?
Post by: BballTim on February 10, 2013, 02:15:46 PM
This borders idiotic, he would not pass a physical.

I think teams can waive physicals for injuries. Wasn't Bogut traded last year with a major injury?



As for the OP, I would trade him for anything above 80 cents on the dollar, but I was in favor of trading him for almost two years now.

I don't believe PG's can lead teams to titles in the first place, and I don't trust "pure PG's" who routinely lead mediocre (at best) offenses. I'm sure some will blame Doc, DA, his teammates, etc. (anybody and everybody but Rondo) for our usually dismal offense, but Doc is well respected (for a reason), KG and Pierce are two HoF'ers (and still All-Stars), and DA knows his stuff, can't deny that.

  The reason some blame Rondo less than you do for our mediocre offense is that they have a decent understanding of why our offense is mediocre. Rondo gets player the shots that they seem to be comfortable taking and they hit those shots at an above average rate. I mean I suppose he could somehow force the bigs to go for offensive rebounds instead of getting back on defense or order KG to post up more, but there's only so much you can realistically expect a pg to do to resolve those issues.

With the ball in Rondo's hands, what are your options?
A. Find player A if/when he gets open
B. Find player B if/when he gets open
C. Find player C if/when he gets open
D. Find player D if/when he gets open
E. Take a midrange jumper
F. Penetrate and put up circus shot
G. Waste entire shot clock and throw up a last second three
I. Penetrate and get fouled

Those are your offensive options with Rondo in the game. And defenses clearly know that's the order he prefers. The rest of the team is forced to exert a ton of energy trying to get open, and usually for nothing.

  I'd say that a) those are the main options (sarcasm or not) that are available to all nba players and not just Rondo and b) your dire description of the situation we're faced with doesn't change what I said. The fact that we shoot the ball well and Rondo generally gets someone an open shot and still manages to get a ton of assists implies that there's something wrong with your analysis of our offense.