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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: tonyto3690 on February 08, 2013, 04:04:46 PM

Title: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 08, 2013, 04:04:46 PM
We all love Perk.  But in spite of his close friendship with Rondo, he was a massive hinderance to Rondo's game was going to cost WAY more than his actual value.  Again, Ainge did try to extend him for fair value but the gross overpricing of Perkins forced Ainge to make a trade.

While in hindsight getting Harden would clearly have been better, Green has displayed the past month or two that he is a fringe star player- something Perkins never has and never will be.  He has displayed a TON of potential lately.

-Three point range
-Fantastic length and athleticism for dunks and layups
-Good to great game speed and the ability to run in transition
-A modest post game
-The ability to create his own shot and have an offense run through him
-Decent passing ability
-Elite defense


Lets not kid ourselves.  Perkins would not have been a difference maker in that Miami series, and he would not have gotten us a higher seed to have homecourt vs Miami that year.  The problem against Miami was we couldn't score.  Last I checked Perkins was never a light-it-up type scorer.

Another thing that is huge is the repercussions of not splurging on Kendricks in a short sighted manner is this season.  With Perkins on the books with Rondo and our team in a downswing the past couple years and limited financial latitude, who  knows if KG and Pierce even return this season? 

Green has been years more valuable than Perkins this season and the disparity will only continue to grow as Green taps into his ridiculous upside while Perkins continues to regress due to his knees falling apart and his lack of offensive game.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 08, 2013, 04:10:20 PM
If Danny was intent on trading Perk, he should have waited until the off-season.  Not only did the trade kill any chance we had at a title, but it's likely that we could have gotten somebody better than Green had we waited and moved Perk for a trade exception.  For instance, David West would have been a possibility, and he would have positioned the team better over the last two seasons.

I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: ScottHow on February 08, 2013, 04:19:51 PM
If Danny was intent on trading Perk, he should have waited until the off-season.  Not only did the trade kill any chance we had at a title, but it's likely that we could have gotten somebody better than Green had we waited and moved Perk for a trade exception.  For instance, David West would have been a possibility, and he would have positioned the team better over the last two seasons.

I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.

I agree with this. It's easy to brush aside now, but I feel we had a legit shot at a title that year. And the Green trade seemed to kill it.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 08, 2013, 04:22:13 PM
yup. I wasn't a fan of the trade from day 1 but right now we have the adv. Its not by alot though bc Green and Durant played the same position and it was better for okc to get vet presence and a centre. Perk doesn't fill the stats but does so many other things to help a team win

It worked out for both teams
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Eja117 on February 08, 2013, 04:24:35 PM
Well. You know what I'd say. Wait till Green is a major part of a championship. Till then he gets none at all
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 08, 2013, 04:45:38 PM
Ill give him credit the day green is a big part of a celtics championship.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: frosty33 on February 08, 2013, 04:51:35 PM
no, we still need a big man till this day
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: nickagneta on February 08, 2013, 04:51:57 PM
I still say if left alone, that team would have won the title. Maybe getting rid of Robinson still would have needed to happen but Perkins being here means there was a golden opportunity to go for the title one more time with that group. Unless Green is a part, an important part of a championship team, I still say it was a bad trade.

Besides, I am still only seeing the same old Jeff Green. He's on another of his 5 game "good Jeff Green" streaks before disappearing again as the "not showing up tonight Jeff Green"(Can't even call him "bad Jeff Green" as he doesn't play bad, he just doesn't show up.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Fred Roberts on February 08, 2013, 04:52:19 PM
The trade hurt at the time and hurt the team's chances that season, but it was a long term move and now it is beginning to pay off.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: kozlodoev on February 08, 2013, 04:56:04 PM
I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.
We put Green on Kobe for defensive purposes yesterday. I know Kobe's not what he used to be, but the fact that Green can play three positions defensively is pretty ridiculous. I'm quietly encouraged about the kid.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: makaveli on February 08, 2013, 04:56:27 PM
Perk was a KG-Doc made, in other words, a lot of his credit for his game was really those two...
I was shocked by the trade, and maybe it wasn't an instant great move, but boy did we save 62 mil $$$
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: nickagneta on February 08, 2013, 04:58:54 PM
The trade hurt at the time and hurt the team's chances that season, but it was a long term move and now it is beginning to pay off.
Is it really paying off? How? Are we any closer right now to winning a championship than we were the day Perk got traded?

I don't think we are. As a matter of fact, I think we are further away from winning a title now than we were when Perk got traded. And in two years all I have seen is a regression or stagnation in Jeff's game.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: kozlodoev on February 08, 2013, 05:00:46 PM
The trade hurt at the time and hurt the team's chances that season, but it was a long term move and now it is beginning to pay off.
Is it really paying off? How? Are we any closer right now to winning a championship than we were the day Perk got traded?

I don't think we are. As a matter of fact, I think we are further away from winning a title now than we were when Perk got traded. And in two years all I have seen is a regression or stagnation in Jeff's game.
You'll have a really hard time convincing anyone that the difference between what happened that season and championship was having good ole Perk hopping around on one leg.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 08, 2013, 05:05:57 PM
I thought it was a great trade at the time, because I thought Ainge had some inside info on Shaq and I was under the assumption Shaq's injuries werent as bad as we thought.   I figured there's no way you pull the trigger on that deal unless you KNOW Shaq is going to return.

For what it's worth, Shaq did end up returning... for about 12 minutes.  He looked great.  Then hobbled off the court never to return.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: scaryjerry on February 08, 2013, 05:10:28 PM
Nope...no way...horrible trade for 2 years could've gotten Jeff green in free agency
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Fafnir on February 08, 2013, 05:11:54 PM
Nope...no way...horrible trade for 2 years could've gotten Jeff green in free agency
With our non-existant cap room?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: scaryjerry on February 08, 2013, 05:17:57 PM
Nope...no way...horrible trade for 2 years could've gotten Jeff green in free agency
With our non-existant cap room?

he was a free agent this past offseason, seems to me we had cap room.. did virtually nothing for us on his remaining contract from the thunder. I didn't say you keep perk...but keeping him the rest of that season and losing him for nothing would've been better then what happened...not like green took a hometown discount.. We offered him the most hence why he came back here
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Donoghus on February 08, 2013, 05:21:10 PM
The trade hurt at the time and hurt the team's chances that season, but it was a long term move and now it is beginning to pay off.
Is it really paying off? How? Are we any closer right now to winning a championship than we were the day Perk got traded?

I don't think we are. As a matter of fact, I think we are further away from winning a title now than we were when Perk got traded. And in two years all I have seen is a regression or stagnation in Jeff's game.
You'll have a really hard time convincing anyone that the difference between what happened that season and championship was having good ole Perk hopping around on one leg.

Yeah, same boat.  That team wasn't winning a title.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Eddie20 on February 08, 2013, 05:23:56 PM
If Danny was intent on trading Perk, he should have waited until the off-season.  Not only did the trade kill any chance we had at a title, but it's likely that we could have gotten somebody better than Green had we waited and moved Perk for a trade exception.  For instance, David West would have been a possibility, and he would have positioned the team better over the last two seasons.

I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.

I don't agree with that. In a perfect world Shaq would've remained healthy, Green would've replaced the injured Daniels, and Krstic and JO would've backed up Shaq. Shaq's injury is what ultimately did us in. Plus, there was no certainty that OKC would've accepted a trade. It's a possibility, sure, but if they didn't we would've been left with nothing.

Let's not forget that we also received the Clippers 1st rd pick (Fab Melo) and this year's Bobcats pick, which was instrumental in us landing Lee from Houston, as part of the deal.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: scaryjerry on February 08, 2013, 05:25:13 PM
The trade hurt at the time and hurt the team's chances that season, but it was a long term move and now it is beginning to pay off.
Is it really paying off? How? Are we any closer right now to winning a championship than we were the day Perk got traded?

I don't think we are. As a matter of fact, I think we are further away from winning a title now than we were when Perk got traded. And in two years all I have seen is a regression or stagnation in Jeff's game.
You'll have a really hard time convincing anyone that the difference between what happened that season and championship was having good ole Perk hopping around on one leg.

Yeah, same boat.  That team wasn't winning a title.


Mmmm that team was pretty good and trading perk demoralized it..he wouldn't have carried them, not sure anyone thinks that
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 08, 2013, 05:58:43 PM
Nope...no way...horrible trade for 2 years could've gotten Jeff green in free agency
With our non-existant cap room?

he was a free agent this past offseason, seems to me we had cap room..

We owned his Bird rights, which we acquired in the Perkins trade. Else we could not have signed him for that much money.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Kane3387 on February 08, 2013, 06:05:44 PM
I still say if left alone, that team would have won the title. Maybe getting rid of Robinson still would have needed to happen but Perkins being here means there was a golden opportunity to go for the title one more time with that group. Unless Green is a part, an important part of a championship team, I still say it was a bad trade.

Besides, I am still only seeing the same old Jeff Green. He's on another of his 5 game "good Jeff Green" streaks before disappearing again as the "not showing up tonight Jeff Green"(Can't even call him "bad Jeff Green" as he doesn't play bad, he just doesn't show up.

No way man. Once Rondo's elbow was dislocated it was over.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Kane3387 on February 08, 2013, 06:13:01 PM
If Danny was intent on trading Perk, he should have waited until the off-season.  Not only did the trade kill any chance we had at a title, but it's likely that we could have gotten somebody better than Green had we waited and moved Perk for a trade exception.  For instance, David West would have been a possibility, and he would have positioned the team better over the last two seasons.

I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.

Hindsight.

No way Ainge gets the return he got at the time in the summer. He would have had no leverage because everyone would know he wasn't committed to Perk.

Very unlikely we dump Robinson's contract. No way we get the Clipper's pick which at the time was the gem of the trade. It looked like a potential lottery pick. Can't foresee "basketball reasons" sending CP3 to the Clippers.

At the time we had two O'Neals along with Krstic (he thought they would be able to give about 30-35 minutes between them with KG and Baby taking the rest) and no backup wing. We were expecting Pierce to go through Melo, Lebron, and then potentially be defended by Artest all by himself?

It had the potential to be a great trade all things considered. Why would he think a hobbled Perk on two bad knees would be better then Krstic and Green?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: LB3533 on February 08, 2013, 06:14:43 PM
I don't like midseason trades just due to the chemistry fiasco factor.

But I gave credit to Ainge at the time of the trade and I give him credit now.

Danny had great foresight to see that our team needed someone extra to deal with the other wings in the Eastern Conference.

Had we stood pat with Perk we probably would have gotten swept by Miami, instead of losing in 5 games.

Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 08, 2013, 06:17:27 PM
Thought it was a good trade back then, nothing has changed in my mind, other than as time goes by the trade looks better and better to me.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: nickagneta on February 08, 2013, 06:21:57 PM
If Danny was intent on trading Perk, he should have waited until the off-season.  Not only did the trade kill any chance we had at a title, but it's likely that we could have gotten somebody better than Green had we waited and moved Perk for a trade exception.  For instance, David West would have been a possibility, and he would have positioned the team better over the last two seasons.

I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.

Hindsight.

No way Ainge gets the return he got at the time in the summer. He would have had no leverage because everyone would know he wasn't committed to Perk.

Very unlikely we dump Robinson's contract. No way we get the Clipper's pick which at the time was the gem of the trade. It looked like a potential lottery pick. Can't foresee "basketball reasons" sending CP3 to the Clippers.

At the time we had two O'Neals along with Krstic (he thought they would be able to give about 30-35 minutes between them with KG and Baby taking the rest) and no backup wing. We were expecting Pierce to go through Melo, Lebron, and then potentially be defended by Artest all by himself?

It had the potential to be a great trade all things considered. Why would he think a hobbled Perk on two bad knees would be better then Krstic and Green?
Strange...OKC didn't think Green was worth a $40 million contract so traded him to the Celtics who didn't think Perk was worth a $40 million contract for Perk. Perk got his money from OKC and has struggled but provided what Perk provides(toughness, leadership, defense, a proven warrior). Boston, thinking Perk wasn't worth $40 million instead decides to give that very same contract to Jeff Green after he took a year off of competitive basketball to have open heart surgery. Strange the way those two franchises took a look at those players and those contracts and think so differently about them.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: xmuscularghandix on February 08, 2013, 06:24:54 PM
(http://www.footbasket.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Jeff-Green-Chris-Bosh-Dunk.png)
(http://starberryicecream.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Wade1.jpg)

 ;D
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: vinnie on February 08, 2013, 07:24:12 PM
I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.
We put Green on Kobe for defensive purposes yesterday. I know Kobe's not what he used to be, but the fact that Green can play three positions defensively is pretty ridiculous. I'm quietly encouraged about the kid.

Lee guarded Kobe much of the time as did Pierce. Green was only on him a few times that I remember.

As for Green overall, he has played well in 7 of the last 10 games and has probably played 20 or so good games all year. If he becomes consistently good I will judge the trade a success. Until then, no chance.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: cman88 on February 08, 2013, 07:38:03 PM
I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.
We put Green on Kobe for defensive purposes yesterday. I know Kobe's not what he used to be, but the fact that Green can play three positions defensively is pretty ridiculous. I'm quietly encouraged about the kid.

Lee guarded Kobe much of the time as did Pierce. Green was only on him a few times that I remember.

As for Green overall, he has played well in 7 of the last 10 games and has probably played 20 or so good games all year. If he becomes consistently good I will judge the trade a success. Until then, no chance.

he's been pretty consistent for the past 10games...averaging 12.7 ppg on 50% shooting

actually he's been playing pretty well since Bradley came back and moved Terry to the bench
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 08, 2013, 07:43:18 PM
Always gave him credit! Don't doubt the "D"s! (Doc and Danny)
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: greenhead85 on February 08, 2013, 08:05:58 PM
Thought it was a good trade back then, nothing has changed in my mind, other than as time goes by the trade looks better and better to me.

Agree.

Two words: progression (Jeff) and regression (Perk).
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: ScoobyDoo on February 08, 2013, 08:09:06 PM
I loved Perkins - one of my all-time favorite Celts -

But I liked the trade then and I like it just as much now.

We got Green and Sully out of that didn't we? Didn't we get the Clipper's first round pick?

I think Ainge knew he wasn't going to be able to re-sign Perk for what his asking price so he got what he could.

Get Jeff Green in a true uptempo team game and he will look better and better.

If he can turn into a stud defender and a 15 point 6 rebound small forward at 35 minutes per game once he's starting we're all going to be very happy.

I don't think he'll ever be a 1st or 2nd option but he could end up being an excellent 3rd option on a championship team.   
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: wdleehi on February 08, 2013, 08:13:52 PM
Nope.


Ainge still traded away someone who should have been the starting C of the playoff team that season for a back up SF who is still the backup SF. 



The Celtics have been playing undersized ever since.  Even if the Celtics move Perk that offseason, a backup SF is still a terrible return. 
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: kozlodoev on February 08, 2013, 08:36:46 PM
Boston, thinking Perk wasn't worth $40 million instead decides to give that very same contract to Jeff Green after he took a year off of competitive basketball to have open heart surgery. Strange the way those two franchises took a look at those players and those contracts and think so differently about them.
Yes, that's because Jeff Green will be a considerably better player over the course of the next 4 years than Kendrick Perkins will be. And it's not even close, really.

It's not Jeff Green's fault that he's playing behind our second-best player.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: jdz101 on February 08, 2013, 08:37:47 PM
Nope.


Ainge still traded away someone who should have been the starting C of the playoff team that season for a back up SF who is still the backup SF. 



The Celtics have been playing undersized ever since.  Even if the Celtics move Perk that offseason, a backup SF is still a terrible return.

In no way should Perkins be a starting center for anyone. The thunder continuing to start him despite his pathetic all round play baffles me. He has no passing game out of the horns set (which is the only play they actually let him touch the ball), he has no shooting, cannot finish around the rim, can't defend anyone except for centers that are slower or more inept offensively than he is, and he is literally a snail on the court. He was not the difference for the thunder and he sure as heck wouldn't have been for us.

Jeff green IS good enough to start for a lot of teams. He is backing up one of the all time greats though.

Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: wdleehi on February 08, 2013, 08:52:05 PM
Nope.


Ainge still traded away someone who should have been the starting C of the playoff team that season for a back up SF who is still the backup SF. 



The Celtics have been playing undersized ever since.  Even if the Celtics move Perk that offseason, a backup SF is still a terrible return.

In no way should Perkins be a starting center for anyone. The thunder continuing to start him despite his pathetic all round play baffles me. He has no passing game out of the horns set (which is the only play they actually let him touch the ball), he has no shooting, cannot finish around the rim, can't defend anyone except for centers that are slower or more inept offensively than he is, and he is literally a snail on the court. He was not the difference for the thunder and he sure as heck wouldn't have been for us.

Jeff green IS good enough to start for a lot of teams. He is backing up one of the all time greats though.


Perk starts because they have been a better team since the trade.


Green is good enough to start on another team.  But the Celtics did not need a starting SF off the bench.  They needed a solid player to play 15 minutes a night to give Pierce a break. 
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: kozlodoev on February 08, 2013, 08:54:06 PM
Nope.


Ainge still traded away someone who should have been the starting C of the playoff team that season for a back up SF who is still the backup SF. 



The Celtics have been playing undersized ever since.  Even if the Celtics move Perk that offseason, a backup SF is still a terrible return.

In no way should Perkins be a starting center for anyone. The thunder continuing to start him despite his pathetic all round play baffles me. He has no passing game out of the horns set (which is the only play they actually let him touch the ball), he has no shooting, cannot finish around the rim, can't defend anyone except for centers that are slower or more inept offensively than he is, and he is literally a snail on the court. He was not the difference for the thunder and he sure as heck wouldn't have been for us.

Jeff green IS good enough to start for a lot of teams. He is backing up one of the all time greats though.


Perk starts because they have been a better team since the trade.


Green is good enough to start on another team.  But the Celtics did not need a starting SF off the bench.  They needed a solid player to play 15 minutes a night to give Pierce a break.
Right, because Pierce is going to play forever, and Green can't play a different position at all.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: wdleehi on February 08, 2013, 09:03:52 PM
Nope.


Ainge still traded away someone who should have been the starting C of the playoff team that season for a back up SF who is still the backup SF. 



The Celtics have been playing undersized ever since.  Even if the Celtics move Perk that offseason, a backup SF is still a terrible return.

In no way should Perkins be a starting center for anyone. The thunder continuing to start him despite his pathetic all round play baffles me. He has no passing game out of the horns set (which is the only play they actually let him touch the ball), he has no shooting, cannot finish around the rim, can't defend anyone except for centers that are slower or more inept offensively than he is, and he is literally a snail on the court. He was not the difference for the thunder and he sure as heck wouldn't have been for us.

Jeff green IS good enough to start for a lot of teams. He is backing up one of the all time greats though.


Perk starts because they have been a better team since the trade.


Green is good enough to start on another team.  But the Celtics did not need a starting SF off the bench.  They needed a solid player to play 15 minutes a night to give Pierce a break.
Right, because Pierce is going to play forever, and Green can't play a different position at all.


And it is so hard to get a SF in the NBA that the Celtics had to do it 4, 5 seasons before Pierce is gone. 


Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Vermont Green on February 08, 2013, 09:04:02 PM
Perk played exactly 12 games before being traded and scored 82 points for the Celtics that season.  I think it is a severe stretch to say that it is clear or obvious that he was going to carry us to a championship.

We played great the whole time he was injured.  We played great because of Shaq.  Shaq got hurt and Perk got traded about the same time.  We received great value for Perk.  He barely did anything for OK after being traded.  How is it that he was going to carry us to a championship?

I just don't get it.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: gpap on February 08, 2013, 09:26:11 PM
As good as Green has been playing lately, I am still not ready to say that the Perk trade was a smart one.

It wasn't even so much that it was a bad trade on paper as much as it was done at the wrong time.

If I remember correctly, that season the Celtics were playing really well and had just gotten Perk back a few weeks prior.

They were a juggernaut in the East and had already beaten Miami 3 times in the regular season.

Regardless of how long Perk was out at that season, it was still the wrong trade at the wrong time.

Having said that, do I think having Perk would've led the Celts to a title that year? Probably not, however that's never a question that a fan or more importantly a GM should ever be asking himself.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 08, 2013, 09:34:26 PM
If Danny was intent on trading Perk, he should have waited until the off-season.  Not only did the trade kill any chance we had at a title, but it's likely that we could have gotten somebody better than Green had we waited and moved Perk for a trade exception.  For instance, David West would have been a possibility, and he would have positioned the team better over the last two seasons.

I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.

Hindsight.

No way Ainge gets the return he got at the time in the summer. He would have had no leverage because everyone would know he wasn't committed to Perk.

Very unlikely we dump Robinson's contract. No way we get the Clipper's pick which at the time was the gem of the trade. It looked like a potential lottery pick. Can't foresee "basketball reasons" sending CP3 to the Clippers.

At the time we had two O'Neals along with Krstic (he thought they would be able to give about 30-35 minutes between them with KG and Baby taking the rest) and no backup wing. We were expecting Pierce to go through Melo, Lebron, and then potentially be defended by Artest all by himself?

It had the potential to be a great trade all things considered. Why would he think a hobbled Perk on two bad knees would be better then Krstic and Green?
Strange...OKC didn't think Green was worth a $40 million contract so traded him to the Celtics who didn't think Perk was worth a $40 million contract for Perk. Perk got his money from OKC and has struggled but provided what Perk provides(toughness, leadership, defense, a proven warrior). Boston, thinking Perk wasn't worth $40 million instead decides to give that very same contract to Jeff Green after he took a year off of competitive basketball to have open heart surgery. Strange the way those two franchises took a look at those players and those contracts and think so differently about them.

Funny because all I've heard from any OKC fan with a voice or a keyboard has been they wanted to use the amnesty clause on Perkins, the team is better with him on the bench, and his best asset is how he's a hard worker.

Sorry, Perkins being a hard worker would not have gotten us any closer to a championship that year or last year.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: scaryjerry on February 08, 2013, 09:38:15 PM
If Danny was intent on trading Perk, he should have waited until the off-season.  Not only did the trade kill any chance we had at a title, but it's likely that we could have gotten somebody better than Green had we waited and moved Perk for a trade exception.  For instance, David West would have been a possibility, and he would have positioned the team better over the last two seasons.

I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.

Hindsight.

No way Ainge gets the return he got at the time in the summer. He would have had no leverage because everyone would know he wasn't committed to Perk.

Very unlikely we dump Robinson's contract. No way we get the Clipper's pick which at the time was the gem of the trade. It looked like a potential lottery pick. Can't foresee "basketball reasons" sending CP3 to the Clippers.

At the time we had two O'Neals along with Krstic (he thought they would be able to give about 30-35 minutes between them with KG and Baby taking the rest) and no backup wing. We were expecting Pierce to go through Melo, Lebron, and then potentially be defended by Artest all by himself?

It had the potential to be a great trade all things considered. Why would he think a hobbled Perk on two bad knees would be better then Krstic and Green?
Strange...OKC didn't think Green was worth a $40 million contract so traded him to the Celtics who didn't think Perk was worth a $40 million contract for Perk. Perk got his money from OKC and has struggled but provided what Perk provides(toughness, leadership, defense, a proven warrior). Boston, thinking Perk wasn't worth $40 million instead decides to give that very same contract to Jeff Green after he took a year off of competitive basketball to have open heart surgery. Strange the way those two franchises took a look at those players and those contracts and think so differently about them.

Funny because all I've heard from any OKC fan with a voice or a keyboard has been they wanted to use the amnesty clause on Perkins, the team is better with him on the bench, and his best asset is how he's a hard worker.

Sorry, Perkins being a hard worker would not have gotten us any closer to a championship that year or last year.

Yup sorry but it would've....got okc closer too
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 08, 2013, 09:39:57 PM

And it is so hard to get a SF in the NBA that the Celtics had to do it 4, 5 seasons before Pierce is gone.

Seriously?

Perkins was going to walk in free agency.
We desperately needed a backup SF
We had played well without Perkins the entire season

Ainge got a sixth man of the year calibre player at that time with the upside to be an elite player at a position of need for a backup center who we had played very well without the entire season.


You people are absolutely ridiculous and will complain about anything you can.  I'm sure if we go on a dynasty run and win 3 straight championships with Green averaging 40 PPG you'd still bemoan how that 2010 title got away because you think Perkins would have suddenly turned into Dwight Howard in the playoffs instead of 2012 Jason Collins which is what he was.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: scaryjerry on February 08, 2013, 09:40:55 PM
Perk played exactly 12 games before being traded and scored 82 points for the Celtics that season.  I think it is a severe stretch to say that it is clear or obvious that he was going to carry us to a championship.

We played great the whole time he was injured.  We played great because of Shaq.  Shaq got hurt and Perk got traded about the same time.  We received great value for Perk.  He barely did anything for OK after being traded.  How is it that he was going to carry us to a championship?

I just don't get it.
Here's the thing
No one said perk would have carried us to a championship...but if you couldn't see that it ruined that teams spirit dramatically then I'm not sure what you were watching...
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 08, 2013, 09:42:11 PM
If Danny was intent on trading Perk, he should have waited until the off-season.  Not only did the trade kill any chance we had at a title, but it's likely that we could have gotten somebody better than Green had we waited and moved Perk for a trade exception.  For instance, David West would have been a possibility, and he would have positioned the team better over the last two seasons.

I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.

Hindsight.

No way Ainge gets the return he got at the time in the summer. He would have had no leverage because everyone would know he wasn't committed to Perk.

Very unlikely we dump Robinson's contract. No way we get the Clipper's pick which at the time was the gem of the trade. It looked like a potential lottery pick. Can't foresee "basketball reasons" sending CP3 to the Clippers.

At the time we had two O'Neals along with Krstic (he thought they would be able to give about 30-35 minutes between them with KG and Baby taking the rest) and no backup wing. We were expecting Pierce to go through Melo, Lebron, and then potentially be defended by Artest all by himself?

It had the potential to be a great trade all things considered. Why would he think a hobbled Perk on two bad knees would be better then Krstic and Green?
Strange...OKC didn't think Green was worth a $40 million contract so traded him to the Celtics who didn't think Perk was worth a $40 million contract for Perk. Perk got his money from OKC and has struggled but provided what Perk provides(toughness, leadership, defense, a proven warrior). Boston, thinking Perk wasn't worth $40 million instead decides to give that very same contract to Jeff Green after he took a year off of competitive basketball to have open heart surgery. Strange the way those two franchises took a look at those players and those contracts and think so differently about them.

Funny because all I've heard from any OKC fan with a voice or a keyboard has been they wanted to use the amnesty clause on Perkins, the team is better with him on the bench, and his best asset is how he's a hard worker.

Sorry, Perkins being a hard worker would not have gotten us any closer to a championship that year or last year.

Yup sorry but it would've....got okc closer too

Are you freaking kidding me?

Perkins had absolutely nothing to do with the Thunders success.  My whole point was how the past two years Thunder fans have wanted Perkins cut because he was a hinderance to the team.  They won IN SPITE of him.

Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 08, 2013, 09:43:09 PM
Perk played exactly 12 games before being traded and scored 82 points for the Celtics that season.  I think it is a severe stretch to say that it is clear or obvious that he was going to carry us to a championship.

We played great the whole time he was injured.  We played great because of Shaq.  Shaq got hurt and Perk got traded about the same time.  We received great value for Perk.  He barely did anything for OK after being traded.  How is it that he was going to carry us to a championship?

I just don't get it.
Here's the thing
No one said perk would have carried us to a championship...but if you couldn't see that it ruined that teams spirit dramatically then I'm not sure what you were watching...

Remember when we started the season hot and were blowing out playoff teams with Shaq starting?

How many minutes was Perkins playing then?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CoachBo on February 08, 2013, 09:47:52 PM
The only spirit that was ruined was the bizarre fan attachment to Perkins.

Green has finally gotten going, so that deal has progressed from a trade that helped neither team to Danny Ainge has Sam Presti's wallet.

Again.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: LB3533 on February 08, 2013, 10:06:10 PM
The only spirit that was ruined was the bizarre fan attachment to Perkins.

Green has finally gotten going, so that deal has progressed from a trade that helped neither team to Danny Ainge has Sam Presti's wallet.

Again.

Agreed.

5 game winning streak immediately following the trade.

What broken spirit?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: jdz101 on February 08, 2013, 10:41:41 PM
Nope.


Ainge still traded away someone who should have been the starting C of the playoff team that season for a back up SF who is still the backup SF. 



The Celtics have been playing undersized ever since.  Even if the Celtics move Perk that offseason, a backup SF is still a terrible return.

In no way should Perkins be a starting center for anyone. The thunder continuing to start him despite his pathetic all round play baffles me. He has no passing game out of the horns set (which is the only play they actually let him touch the ball), he has no shooting, cannot finish around the rim, can't defend anyone except for centers that are slower or more inept offensively than he is, and he is literally a snail on the court. He was not the difference for the thunder and he sure as heck wouldn't have been for us.

Jeff green IS good enough to start for a lot of teams. He is backing up one of the all time greats though.


Perk starts because they have been a better team since the trade.


Green is good enough to start on another team.  But the Celtics did not need a starting SF off the bench.  They needed a solid player to play 15 minutes a night to give Pierce a break.

Perk being there does not necessarily make him the reason for their success.

The emergence of ibaka, and the improvement/increased experience of their two stars are the best two indicators for their improvement. Indicators that are actually backed up by statistical evidence. Not scowls.

Perkins' numbers

Net Points per 100 Possessions
+8.9 On court
+10.0 Off court
-1.1

They are 1.1 points better off when he's not on the court.

Green's Numbers
 
Net Points per 100 Possessions
-2.0 On court
-1.7 Off court
-0.3

Almost zero drop off when green comes on with the bench. Whereas perkins is a net negative as a starter, playing with Oklahoma's best players.

Let's look into opponent production vs own production for both players.

Perkins' numbers

9.0        Own production average per 48
17.8      Opponent production average per 48
-8.9      Net production per 48

Not stopping many people defensively it seems.

Green's Numbers

11.8      Own production average per 48
11.3      Opponent production average per 48
+0.5      Net production per 48

Not amazing by any standards but at least green is in the positive.


         
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tenn_smoothie on February 08, 2013, 10:59:28 PM
No, we can't - not even close.

with Perk, the Celtics were leading the East with an excellent shot at the title in 2011 - this team, as much fun as they have been, isn't close to that team's level.

please don't play out the argument that, well, Rondo's injury in the 2011 playoffs vs Miami would have negated our title shot that year. we keep Perk and we probably have home court throughout the playoffs that season (unless the Spurs make the Finals) and we never would have seen Miami until the East finals.

and please save the argument about Perk's stats - his value, especially to this group of Celtics, goes way beyond the boxscore.

finally, may i remind you - Danny Boy has been looking for a solid center ever since he gave Perk away. that trade was an Ainge ego trip and he is still trying to justify it.

wouldn't you rather be sitting here tonight with another banner already in the rafters watching Danny trying to sustain an aging team than enjoying Jeff Green's improved play of late, which i suppose is the point of this thread ?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 08, 2013, 11:06:35 PM
No, we can't - not even close.

with Perk, the Celtics were leading the East with an excellent shot at the title in 2011 - this team, as much fun as they have been, isn't close to that team's level.

please don't play out the argument that, well, Rondo's injury in the 2011 playoffs vs Miami would have negated our title shot that year. we keep Perk and we probably have home court throughout the playoffs that season (unless the Spurs make the Finals) and we never would have seen Miami until the East finals.

and please save the argument about Perk's stats - his value, especially to this group of Celtics, goes way beyond the boxscore.

finally, may i remind you - Danny Boy has been looking for a solid center ever since he gave Perk away. that trade was an Ainge ego trip and he is still trying to justify it.

wouldn't you rather be sitting here tonight with another banner already in the rafters watching Danny trying to sustain an aging team than enjoying Jeff Green's improved play of late, which i suppose is the point of this thread ?

I actually would not.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: gpap on February 08, 2013, 11:09:33 PM
To the previous poster, well said.

To me, stats don't necessarily tell anything.

Perk and the Celtics were a perfect match.

When the Perk trade happened, KG/Paul/Ray/Rondo were affected in a very negative way.

Doc said it was like they lost a family member.

For those quick to criticize Perk for his play in OKC, well what did you expect? Perk fit well with this team, plain and simple

Perk hasn't been the same since the trade and neither have the Celtics.

You have to go beyond the stats sometimes for the whole story. I also truly believe Miami was absolutely ecstatic when we traded Perk. I think that was the one guy Lebron and Wade feared the most (other than maybe Tony Allen.)
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: ssspence on February 08, 2013, 11:12:26 PM
The reality: two very good NBA GMs got rid of players they didn't want to pay because they had doubts about their value vs. price tag. So far, neither player has panned out in either of those two categories  No one won, both teams lost.

But Perk should have been an asset of stronger value than a return of Jeff Green. So in that fact, I'd say it's still very low on Danny's track record.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 08, 2013, 11:12:48 PM
To the previous poster, well said.

To me, stats don't necessarily tell anything.

Perk and the Celtics were a perfect match.

When the Perk trade happened, KG/Paul/Ray/Rondo were affected in a very negative way.

Doc said it was like they lost a family member.

For those quick to criticize Perk for his play in OKC, well what did you expect? Perk fit well with this team, plain and simple

Perk hasn't been the same since the trade and neither have the Celtics.

You have to go beyond the stats sometimes for the whole story. I also truly believe Miami was absolutely ecstatic when we traded Perk. I think that was the one guy Lebron and Wade feared the most (other than maybe Tony Allen.)

I didn't say that but ok.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: thenotoriousjts on February 08, 2013, 11:13:11 PM
That trade still hasn't paid off in any way. Aren't we 8th or something?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: wdleehi on February 08, 2013, 11:13:27 PM
I never said the Celtics would win the title that year because of Perk.

But I do believe they would have had a better shot with a healthy starting center.

Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 08, 2013, 11:15:06 PM
That trade still hasn't paid off in any way. Aren't we 8th or something?

We didnt know he would nearly die.

We have three+ more years
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 08, 2013, 11:16:38 PM
The reality: two very good NBA GMs got rid of players they didn't want to pay because they had doubts about their value vs. price tag. So far, neither player has panned out in either of those two categories  No one won, both teams lost.

But Perk should have been an asset of stronger value than a return of Jeff Green. So in that fact, I'd say it's still very low on Danny's track record.

Stronger value than Jeff Green? What? After he had come off an injury that has been quite evident to slow him down? Sorry, but I'm having a tough time believing that Perk would've had more trade value than what we got.

We also got a rotation center in that deal. A center that actually played quite well for us, but sadly also got injured as we were closing in for the playoffs.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: indeedproceed on February 08, 2013, 11:45:10 PM
Perkins had 17 pts and 9 rebounds tonight. Jus sayin'.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 08, 2013, 11:54:50 PM
So the argument now...

"I COUNTER YOUR ARGUMENT BASED ON FACTS, STATISTICS AND COMMON SENSE WITH MY PERSONAL OPINION BASED ON NOTHING BUT HOW I THINK THE TEAM EMOTIONALLY FELT AND HOW GROWN MEN AND PAID PROFESSIONALS DECIDED TO PLAY LESS HARD BECAUSE THEIR BEST FRIEND PERKINS WASNT THERE."
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: wdleehi on February 08, 2013, 11:59:57 PM
So the argument now...

"I COUNTER YOUR ARGUMENT BASED ON FACTS, STATISTICS AND COMMON SENSE WITH MY PERSONAL OPINION BASED ON NOTHING BUT HOW I THINK THE TEAM EMOTIONALLY FELT AND HOW GROWN MEN AND PAID PROFESSIONALS DECIDED TO PLAY LESS HARD BECAUSE THEIR BEST FRIEND PERKINS WASNT THERE."


No.


The argument is the Celtics needed a healthy C in the playoffs that season instead starter as a backup SF. 


Shaq was out (not a shock)
JO was hurt (not a shock)
Kristic wasn't good enough to beat out a hurt JO in the playoffs (not a shock)
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: jdz101 on February 09, 2013, 12:39:48 AM
So the argument now...

"I COUNTER YOUR ARGUMENT BASED ON FACTS, STATISTICS AND COMMON SENSE WITH MY PERSONAL OPINION BASED ON NOTHING BUT HOW I THINK THE TEAM EMOTIONALLY FELT AND HOW GROWN MEN AND PAID PROFESSIONALS DECIDED TO PLAY LESS HARD BECAUSE THEIR BEST FRIEND PERKINS WASNT THERE."


No.


The argument is the Celtics needed a healthy C in the playoffs that season instead starter as a backup SF. 


Shaq was out (not a shock)
JO was hurt (not a shock)
Kristic wasn't good enough to beat out a hurt JO in the playoffs (not a shock)

Please do your best to convince me that perk was even 70% that year.

Also convince me that he would have helped against quicker bigs like bosh, when the eyetest and the statistics say otherwise.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 09, 2013, 12:44:09 AM
probably argue this one till the cows one home.....for me it's about what is happening today......move  on already

Jeff is playing  well now, seems happy, and has become a valued player.   That good enough for me.   And Perk is helping his team .

does it really matter t this point.......water under the bridge what ever
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 09, 2013, 01:01:00 AM
I'd have preferred to give Perk the money over Green. Giving it to Perk would've resulted in another championship. How can any level of productivity (undoubtedly mediocre/not worth his contract) from Green over the next X years be equivalent to a championship?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Kane3387 on February 09, 2013, 01:04:01 AM
Perkins had 17 pts and 9 rebounds tonight. Jus sayin'.

He dominated gortat tonight! I still agree with huge trade.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: indeedproceed on February 09, 2013, 01:04:42 AM
probably argue this one till the cows one home.....for me it's about what is happening today......move  on already

Jeff is playing  well now, seems happy, and has become a valued player.   That good enough for me.   And Perk is helping his team .

does it really matter t this point.......water under the bridge what ever

That's mostly where I am at, at this point. Green has been playing well, and if he continues to do so, I thinknAinge does deserve credit.

But, while there is no way to know how Boston would've performed with Perkins in that series, doubt will always remain. They had great chemistry, a brotherhood which was pretty much shattered at the point of the Perkins trade. One year later, Ray takes less money to walk away. I'm not arguing causality, just that it was a watershed moment for the team. They never did lose a playoff series where Perkins, KG, Pierce, Allen, and Rondo were all healthy enough to play.

Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 09, 2013, 01:08:51 AM
Hypothetical championships come a whole lot cheaper than real ones.  No way to know how we'd've done with Perk, but he wasn't very good in OKC the rest of that year either.

Meanwhile Green is starting to look like what Danny must've seen in him all along.  He needs a lot more consistency but we're paying him to be a key backup now and Pierce's replacement later.  So far...not bad.

Bottom line, Ainge's trade always made sense to me on paper, though all our big man injuries made it sting in '11.  But now it's starting to make sense to me on the court too.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Kane3387 on February 09, 2013, 01:13:22 AM
If Danny was intent on trading Perk, he should have waited until the off-season.  Not only did the trade kill any chance we had at a title, but it's likely that we could have gotten somebody better than Green had we waited and moved Perk for a trade exception.  For instance, David West would have been a possibility, and he would have positioned the team better over the last two seasons.

I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.

Hindsight.

No way Ainge gets the return he got at the time in the summer. He would have had no leverage because everyone would know he wasn't committed to Perk.

Very unlikely we dump Robinson's contract. No way we get the Clipper's pick which at the time was the gem of the trade. It looked like a potential lottery pick. Can't foresee "basketball reasons" sending CP3 to the Clippers.

At the time we had two O'Neals along with Krstic (he thought they would be able to give about 30-35 minutes between them with KG and Baby taking the rest) and no backup wing. We were expecting Pierce to go through Melo, Lebron, and then potentially be defended by Artest all by himself?

It had the potential to be a great trade all things considered. Why would he think a hobbled Perk on two bad knees would be better then Krstic and Green?
Strange...OKC didn't think Green was worth a $40 million contract so traded him to the Celtics who didn't think Perk was worth a $40 million contract for Perk. Perk got his money from OKC and has struggled but provided what Perk provides(toughness, leadership, defense, a proven warrior). Boston, thinking Perk wasn't worth $40 million instead decides to give that very same contract to Jeff Green after he took a year off of competitive basketball to have open heart surgery. Strange the way those two franchises took a look at those players and those contracts and think so differently about them.

It's not really that strange. It's need. They needed an enforcer and had kd harden and Thabo for the wings. We needed a wing and had two oneals, a ticket, a baby and were getting Krstic.

The market dictated greens deal. Just like it will flacco for example Should joe flacco be paid like drew Bree's? I don't think so. But he will be. Green deserves a deal like salmons or Marvin Williams for sure but the market skewed their value. So whether Danny thought green "was worth it" doesn't matter bc he either Annie's up or gets nothing. No brainer to me.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: indeedproceed on February 09, 2013, 01:24:13 AM
Ante's up. Like in poker, you pay the ante.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tenn_smoothie on February 09, 2013, 01:44:42 AM
No, we can't - not even close.

with Perk, the Celtics were leading the East with an excellent shot at the title in 2011 - this team, as much fun as they have been, isn't close to that team's level.

please don't play out the argument that, well, Rondo's injury in the 2011 playoffs vs Miami would have negated our title shot that year. we keep Perk and we probably have home court throughout the playoffs that season (unless the Spurs make the Finals) and we never would have seen Miami until the East finals.

and please save the argument about Perk's stats - his value, especially to this group of Celtics, goes way beyond the boxscore.

finally, may i remind you - Danny Boy has been looking for a solid center ever since he gave Perk away. that trade was an Ainge ego trip and he is still trying to justify it.

wouldn't you rather be sitting here tonight with another banner already in the rafters watching Danny trying to sustain an aging team than enjoying Jeff Green's improved play of late, which i suppose is the point of this thread ?

I actually would not.

You actually would not have seen this current team have their 2nd title already??

Then you must be either a transplanted Hawks, Magic, Suns, Jazz, Nuggets, Trail Blazers or maybe Warriors fan who loves an entertaining team that just plays for the 2nd round every year ....... or you are just insane.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tenn_smoothie on February 09, 2013, 02:04:07 AM
So the argument now...

"I COUNTER YOUR ARGUMENT BASED ON FACTS, STATISTICS AND COMMON SENSE WITH MY PERSONAL OPINION BASED ON NOTHING BUT HOW I THINK THE TEAM EMOTIONALLY FELT AND HOW GROWN MEN AND PAID PROFESSIONALS DECIDED TO PLAY LESS HARD BECAUSE THEIR BEST FRIEND PERKINS WASNT THERE."

your understanding of team sports dynamics must be zero.

and with this Celtics group in particular, the importance of emotion, togetherness, of the group, and of their chemistry on the court where they played on a continuous string on the defensive end, multiply the importance of those dynamics 10-times.

that team i'm sure didn't consciously play with less intensity after they lost Perk, but our heads are usually ahead of our hearts anytime we deal with traumatic change. thus, those Celtics could tell themselves to be professional and play hard all they wanted, but if they weren't emotionally in sync, they were always going to be a step behind physically.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on February 09, 2013, 02:49:30 AM
So the argument now...

"I COUNTER YOUR ARGUMENT BASED ON FACTS, STATISTICS AND COMMON SENSE WITH MY PERSONAL OPINION BASED ON NOTHING BUT HOW I THINK THE TEAM EMOTIONALLY FELT AND HOW GROWN MEN AND PAID PROFESSIONALS DECIDED TO PLAY LESS HARD BECAUSE THEIR BEST FRIEND PERKINS WASNT THERE."

your understanding of team sports dynamics must be zero.

and with this Celtics group in particular, the importance of emotion, togetherness, of the group, and of their chemistry on the court where they played on a continuous string on the defensive end, multiply the importance of those dynamics 10-times.

that team i'm sure didn't consciously play with less intensity after they lost Perk, but our heads are usually ahead of our hearts anytime we deal with traumatic change. thus, those Celtics could tell themselves to be professional and play hard all they wanted, but if they weren't emotionally in sync, they were always going to be a step behind physically.

Just want to say, our hearts have no feeling, it's all in our brains. With that said, I agree, something like that "losing a brother" could mess you up no matter how hard you try to not let it get to you.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 09, 2013, 04:49:08 AM
No, we can't - not even close

with Perk, the Celtics were leading the East with an excellent shot at the title in 2011 - this team, as much fun as they have been, isn't close to that team's level.

please don't play out the argument that, well, Rondo's injury in the 2011 playoffs vs Miami would have negated our title shot that year. we keep Perk and we probably have home court throughout the playoffs that season (unless the Spurs make the Finals) and we never would have seen Miami until the East finals.

and please save the argument about Perk's stats - his value, especially to this group of Celtics, goes way beyond the boxscore.

finally, may i remind you - Danny Boy has been looking for a solid center ever since he gave Perk away. that trade was an Ainge ego trip and he is still trying to justify it.

wouldn't you rather be sitting here tonight with another banner already in the rafters watching Danny trying to sustain an aging team than enjoying Jeff Green's improved play of late, which i suppose is the point of this thread ?

I actually would not.

You actually would not have seen this current team have their 2nd title already??

Then you must be either a transplanted Hawks, Magic, Suns, Jazz, Nuggets, Trail Blazers or maybe Warriors fan who loves an entertaining team that just plays for the 2nd round every year ....... or you are just insane.

I've said this once, I've said this 10 million times (slight exaggeration)

1. Perkins suffered a season ending injury against the Lakers, and big men don't have a history of returning well from major injuries.

2. When Perk came back god knows how long it would have taken for him to return to form, if ever.  Also he could have gone 3 more games, reimburse himself, been out again.

For the above reasons, we have no way at al of even imagining whether we'd have won a title or even finished with a better record of we kept Perk.

Next thing:
3. We had Shaq, Perk, Jermaine and Semih Erden.  That's 4 centres on our roster, and all of them had been injured at some point in the season.  We had no way of knowing if wed have either one of those guys healthy come playoff time.  We needed a healthy center.

4. Perk was asking more than we could offer to extend his contract.  If we kept him we already knew he'd sign elsewhere the next season and we'd lose him for nothing.

5. In the trade, along with Jeff, we got Nenad Krstic.  He was a solid big who had been healthy all season.

Put all of this together and Danny would have been an absolute moron to keep Perk.  He had no choice as a GM bit to trade him, and right now I think were better off with KG at center anyway.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 09, 2013, 08:11:58 AM
If Danny was intent on trading Perk, he should have waited until the off-season.  Not only did the trade kill any chance we had at a title, but it's likely that we could have gotten somebody better than Green had we waited and moved Perk for a trade exception.  For instance, David West would have been a possibility, and he would have positioned the team better over the last two seasons.

I appreciate the view that Jeff Green is a star and has "ridiculous upside", but I'm not sure that it's accurate.

Hindsight.

No way Ainge gets the return he got at the time in the summer. He would have had no leverage because everyone would know he wasn't committed to Perk.

Very unlikely we dump Robinson's contract. No way we get the Clipper's pick which at the time was the gem of the trade. It looked like a potential lottery pick. Can't foresee "basketball reasons" sending CP3 to the Clippers.

At the time we had two O'Neals along with Krstic (he thought they would be able to give about 30-35 minutes between them with KG and Baby taking the rest) and no backup wing. We were expecting Pierce to go through Melo, Lebron, and then potentially be defended by Artest all by himself?

It had the potential to be a great trade all things considered. Why would he think a hobbled Perk on two bad knees would be better then Krstic and Green?

Haha.  Hindsight?  I was making these arguments on the day of the trade.

Concerned about chemistry and the loss of swagger?  Check.

Concerned about Green's toughness?  Check.

Concerned that the new guys wouldn't pick up the system?  Check.

Concerned that the team's championship hopes -- which were very much alive -- would be tanked?  Check.

The suggestion that we should have kept Perk for a trade exception?  Check.

http://www.celticsblog.com/2011/2/25/2013952/dannys-folly

Evaluate my argument as you will, but it's definitely not hindsight.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Vermont Green on February 09, 2013, 09:04:27 AM
So who would trade Green, Sullinger, Krstic, and $4.5M (what it cost OKC to cut Nate) to get Perk back right now?

The argument that the trade hurt chemistry does have some weight but it is really the only argument against it.

Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

If the team really stopped playing just becasue of a trade (a trade of a player who only played 12 games that season), to me that is another type of problem altogether.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: PhoSita on February 09, 2013, 09:05:08 AM
Hypothetical championships come a whole lot cheaper than real ones.  No way to know how we'd've done with Perk, but he wasn't very good in OKC the rest of that year either.

Meanwhile Green is starting to look like what Danny must've seen in him all along.  He needs a lot more consistency but we're paying him to be a key backup now and Pierce's replacement later.  So far...not bad.

Bottom line, Ainge's trade always made sense to me on paper, though all our big man injuries made it sting in '11.  But now it's starting to make sense to me on the court too.

This.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: ssspence on February 09, 2013, 09:23:40 AM
The reality: two very good NBA GMs got rid of players they didn't want to pay because they had doubts about their value vs. price tag. So far, neither player has panned out in either of those two categories  No one won, both teams lost.

But Perk should have been an asset of stronger value than a return of Jeff Green. So in that fact, I'd say it's still very low on Danny's track record.

Stronger value than Jeff Green? What? After he had come off an injury that has been quite evident to slow him down? Sorry, but I'm having a tough time believing that Perk would've had more trade value than what we got.

We also got a rotation center in that deal. A center that actually played quite well for us, but sadly also got injured as we were closing in for the playoffs.

Regardless of who you think Green was at the time, or even who you think he is today, there are two non-debatable factors:

1) Green did not fill a position of need for the Cs. They should have traded for a volume bench scorer or a quality 4, if they were going to trade Perk at all. They got neither;

2) Jeff Green has accomplished nothing as a Celtic. He was bad in 2011, he didn't play in 2012, and he's been bad in 2013.

Combine those criteria, and that's very weak value. No reason to trade your starting center for that kind of value.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 09, 2013, 09:24:38 AM
Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: PhoSita on February 09, 2013, 10:06:53 AM
2) Jeff Green has accomplished nothing as a Celtic. He was bad in 2011, he didn't play in 2012, and he's been bad in 2013.

I don't think it's as dogmatically true as you make it out to be that Jeff has been "bad" this season.  Sure, he won't blow you away statistically, and he's been somewhat inconsistent.  But he's been a LOT better since the start of January (he's actually led the team in +/-, for what it's worth).  You can't discount the "coming back from having heart surgery" factor, either.  We're past the year mark on that surgery and Jeff is finally starting to look like a relatively consistent contributor.  He regularly makes big plays that gets the team fired up, even if he's not scoring 15-20 points every night.

I'm more than satisfied with what we've gotten from Jeff Green this season.  I'd rather have him than Gerald Wallace, Demar Derozan, or Marvin Williams . . . which basically means that he's earning his paycheck.


Also, including "didn't play in 2012" in your argument for "you shouldn't trade your starting center for that" doesn't logically make any sense.  There was no way to know that he would miss a season when DA traded for him.  It couldn't possibly have entered into the equation.

Not to mention perhaps the biggest problem with your argument.  Jeff Green DID fill a need.  Since Posey left there was a huge hole at SF behind Paul Pierce; that fact was only exacerbated by the emergence of the Heat as the major Eastern Conference nemesis.  The Celtics needed a big, athletic wing to help defend LeBron and try to match the Heat's speed and athleticism.  Perk would have been about as useful against the Heat as a Panzer tank in the jungles of Vietnam.

The biggest reason to criticize Danny for the Perk trade was, still is, and always will be the fact that it meant that the team was putting all its eggs in the old, often injured Shaq / JO combination at center.  However, I think you can make a strong argument that the team wasn't going to win a championship without Shaq contributing, anyway.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 09, 2013, 10:16:25 AM
The reality: two very good NBA GMs got rid of players they didn't want to pay because they had doubts about their value vs. price tag. So far, neither player has panned out in either of those two categories  No one won, both teams lost.

But Perk should have been an asset of stronger value than a return of Jeff Green. So in that fact, I'd say it's still very low on Danny's track record.

Stronger value than Jeff Green? What? After he had come off an injury that has been quite evident to slow him down? Sorry, but I'm having a tough time believing that Perk would've had more trade value than what we got.

We also got a rotation center in that deal. A center that actually played quite well for us, but sadly also got injured as we were closing in for the playoffs.

Regardless of who you think Green was at the time, or even who you think he is today, there are two non-debatable factors:

1) Green did not fill a position of need for the Cs. They should have traded for a volume bench scorer or a quality 4, if they were going to trade Perk at all. They got neither;

2) Jeff Green has accomplished nothing as a Celtic. He was bad in 2011, he didn't play in 2012, and he's been bad in 2013.

Combine those criteria, and that's very weak value. No reason to trade your starting center for that kind of value.

1) Center wasn't a position with need, and we actually got a center in that trade for Perkins (a healthy center, which was a plus), so that "need" was filled. Green filled an actual position of need, back-up SF which we didn't have.

2) Green wasn't bad in 2011. He didn't play in 2012 due to health reasons, which netted us a second round pick as compensation which was used to trade for Courtney Lee. That said, we acquired Peaches, Sasha, and Daniels to fill in for Green behind Pierce to make due in 2012, and I'm more than fine with that group while Green came back this year.

And he's not been bad in 2013, that's just completely inaccurate.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 09, 2013, 10:20:13 AM
Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.

The only team spirit that was hurt was Rondo's, no one else on that team that I recall let the trade affect their play.

Shaq indeed was hurt as Roy mentions, and I think it was a case of an injury that should've healed quicker just didn't. In fact, didn't he return after that injury, just to get a more severe injury later on? I don't recall that well.

But all that said, we got a rotation center in that Perk trade. A center who actually played well for us, but got he got hurt too.

Oh well, crap happens.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: OttawaCeltic on February 09, 2013, 10:29:19 AM
edit - no personal attacks.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 09, 2013, 11:18:52 AM
So here's the arguments I'm seeing for both sides

Pro trade:
-We got great value
-We had plenty of depth at center
-Perkins was going to walk
-We weren't going to win championship with Perkins
-Green filled a very large need
-Green has star potential
-Green can be the heir apparent to Pierce
-Green is younger than Perkins and will likely have a career for another 10 years vs Perkins 3 year (being generous) career life span


Against trade:
-We should have overpaid for an old center with destroyed knees so we could have an old slow overpaid center now.
-The loss of Perkins caused our grown men professionals to completely lose all desire to win the game they're paid millions to play.
-We should have had future knowledge of hindsight that Shaq wasn't going to be healthy in the playoffs

Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: ssspence on February 09, 2013, 12:22:47 PM
The reality: two very good NBA GMs got rid of players they didn't want to pay because they had doubts about their value vs. price tag. So far, neither player has panned out in either of those two categories  No one won, both teams lost.

But Perk should have been an asset of stronger value than a return of Jeff Green. So in that fact, I'd say it's still very low on Danny's track record.

Stronger value than Jeff Green? What? After he had come off an injury that has been quite evident to slow him down? Sorry, but I'm having a tough time believing that Perk would've had more trade value than what we got.

We also got a rotation center in that deal. A center that actually played quite well for us, but sadly also got injured as we were closing in for the playoffs.

Regardless of who you think Green was at the time, or even who you think he is today, there are two non-debatable factors:

1) Green did not fill a position of need for the Cs. They should have traded for a volume bench scorer or a quality 4, if they were going to trade Perk at all. They got neither;

2) Jeff Green has accomplished nothing as a Celtic. He was bad in 2011, he didn't play in 2012, and he's been bad in 2013.

Combine those criteria, and that's very weak value. No reason to trade your starting center for that kind of value.

1) Center wasn't a position with need, and we actually got a center in that trade for Perkins (a healthy center, which was a plus), so that "need" was filled. Green filled an actual position of need, back-up SF which we didn't have.

2) Green wasn't bad in 2011. He didn't play in 2012 due to health reasons, which netted us a second round pick as compensation which was used to trade for Courtney Lee. That said, we acquired Peaches, Sasha, and Daniels to fill in for Green behind Pierce to make due in 2012, and I'm more than fine with that group while Green came back this year.

And he's not been bad in 2013, that's just completely inaccurate.

Well he certainly hasn't been above average in any facet. So if you want to defend his value since the trade, be my guest, but I'll stand by my argument that he's been a disappointment, and combined with the fact he was at the time, and continues to be, a back-up, I didn't and don't see the deal as a high value move, and therefore certainly not one I'm ready to applaud the Celtics for when you consider the alternatives -- a run at a championship which included their championship center, and / or a trade for a player of greater impact.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: kgainez on February 09, 2013, 12:28:29 PM
So here's the arguments I'm seeing for both sides

Pro trade:
-We got great value
-We had plenty of depth at center
-Perkins was going to walk
-We weren't going to win championship with Perkins
-Green filled a very large need
-Green has star potential
-Green can be the heir apparent to Pierce
-Green is younger than Perkins and will likely have a career for another 10 years vs Perkins 3 year (being generous) career life span


Against trade:
-We should have overpaid for an old center with destroyed knees so we could have an old slow overpaid center now.
-The loss of Perkins caused our grown men professionals to completely lose all desire to win the game they're paid millions to play.
-We should have had future knowledge of hindsight that Shaq wasn't going to be healthy in the playoffs

lol

also, didn't Danny draft Jeff Green? He probably had some sort of attachment and future vision of Green that absolutely no one will know about any time soon.

the Perk trade scared me initially. But seeing how we can make ppl like Steamer and Hollins look good, I say we just need to find some people who can rebound and take some hard fouls.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: pearljammer10 on February 09, 2013, 12:29:38 PM
as much as i love Jeff Green and have been a huge supporter of his all year. Perk shouldnt have been traded that year. I still believe we win the championship with Perk that year.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: ScoobyDoo on February 09, 2013, 12:34:54 PM
I asked this before in this post, but can someone confirm the following:

Didn't we get Jeff Green and Jared Sullinger (Clipper's 1st round pick) out of that trade?

If so, can we put the actual return to the Celtics by trading Kendrick Perkins as Jeff Green and Jared Sullinger?

I loved Perkins, but I don't think he guaranteed us anything as far as championships go. For all we know he could have re-injured his knee in round two fo the playoffs that year, just like Shaq got injured and Rondo got injured. Incredibly bad luck with injuries at the wrong time to key players is the main reason this team built around KG and Pierce hasn't rasied 2-3 banners instead of one and that isn't only because of Perkins  being traded.

Looking forward, I would much rather have a tandem of Green and Sullinger than I would Kendrick Perkins.

* Perkins was one of my all time favorite Celtics.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Vermont Green on February 09, 2013, 12:39:30 PM
Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.
OK, that sets the time line more accurately but the question is still how do you know it was the trade that affected team chemistry and not the Shaq injury revealing itself as being worse than originally thought?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: kgainez on February 09, 2013, 12:46:29 PM
Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.
OK, that sets the time line more accurately but the question is still how do you know it was the trade that affected team chemistry and not the Shaq injury revealing itself as being worse than originally thought?

we don't so this entire argument is moot

the question should be, who's having a better season right now. Perk or Green?

Ok...now who wins?

smh

You all have this crazy ability to overrate these players you're so mentally attached to. I understand it. I really do. But realistically...what's Perk doing over in OKC? 4 points and 6 rebounds?

Why are we so pressed to have ONE person make up for that?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 09, 2013, 12:47:28 PM
Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.
OK, that sets the time line more accurately but the question is still how do you know it was the trade that affected team chemistry and not the Shaq injury revealing itself as being worse than originally thought?

Reports at the time were that the team was "livid" and devastated by the deal.  The true extent of Shaq's injury -- that he'd be out for the season -- wasn't discovered until much later.  Indeed, the team still had Shaq trying to comeback in the playoffs, although he wasn't healthy enough to do so.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: ssspence on February 09, 2013, 12:48:33 PM
I asked this before in this post, but can someone confirm the following:

Didn't we get Jeff Green and Jared Sullinger (Clipper's 1st round pick) out of that trade?

If so, can we put the actual return to the Celtics by trading Kendrick Perkins as Jeff Green and Jared Sullinger?

I loved Perkins, but I don't think he guaranteed us anything as far as championships go. For all we know he could have re-injured his knee in round two fo the playoffs that year, just like Shaq got injured and Rondo got injured. Incredibly bad luck with injuries at the wrong time to key players is the main reason this team built around KG and Pierce hasn't rasied 2-3 banners instead of one and that isn't only because of Perkins  being traded.

Looking forward, I would much rather have a tandem of Green and Sullinger than I would Kendrick Perkins.

* Perkins was one of my all time favorite Celtics.

They actually took Fab Melo with that pick. And as another poster pointed out, they got Charlotte's 2nd this year from OKC as compensation for a lack of disclosure on Green's medical condition, though obviously they didn't know they'd be receiving that at the time. That pick was used to get Courtney Lee from the Rockets.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 09, 2013, 12:49:58 PM
Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.
OK, that sets the time line more accurately but the question is still how do you know it was the trade that affected team chemistry and not the Shaq injury revealing itself as being worse than originally thought?

Reports at the time were that the team was "livid" and devastated by the deal.  The true extent of Shaq's injury -- that he'd be out for the season -- wasn't discovered until much later.  Indeed, the team still had Shaq trying to comeback in the playoffs, although he wasn't healthy enough to do so.

Didn't we later learn that the Big 3, or at least Pierce and Garnett were consulted on this possible trade and both signed-on or something?

The only real affect I recall was with Rondo, people might be "livid" at the time, but we looked good playing together.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 09, 2013, 12:50:25 PM
But realistically...what's Perk doing over in OKC? 4 points and 6 rebounds?

... and anchoring the defense of a team that reached the Finals last year, and has the second best record in the NBA.

Perk's presence is about a lot more than points scored and rebounds collected.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 09, 2013, 12:52:13 PM
The only real affect I recall was with Rondo, people might be "livid" at the time, but we looked good playing together.

We didn't look that good.  We finished out the year 15-12, which was pretty poor.  We played below .500 for the last quarter of the season.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: kgainez on February 09, 2013, 12:53:19 PM
But realistically...what's Perk doing over in OKC? 4 points and 6 rebounds?

... and anchoring the defense of a team that reached the Finals last year, and has the second best record in the NBA.

Perk's presence is about a lot more than points scored and rebounds collected.

arguable
did he get a ring, or nah?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: ScoobyDoo on February 09, 2013, 12:58:06 PM
Ok, so:

Jeff Green: Who appears capable of being a 12-15 point scorer with 4-6 boards a game and a very strong defender at the 2,3 and 4 spots - and who can also play some PF - for the next ten years.

Fab Melo: Perhpas can be as good as Perkins in 2-3 years and then we'd have for another 10 seasons

Courtney Lee: Who we were able to get, in part, because of the Perkins Trade.

I am Ok with that as a return for Perkins, who is now close to a 10 year veteran.

Again, I'm not sure we win the ring that year even with Perk - we haven't raised more then 1 ring in the KG era mostly because of of a series of bad luck with key injuries to key players - not the Perk trade.     
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 09, 2013, 01:01:18 PM
But realistically...what's Perk doing over in OKC? 4 points and 6 rebounds?

... and anchoring the defense of a team that reached the Finals last year, and has the second best record in the NBA.

Perk's presence is about a lot more than points scored and rebounds collected.

arguable
did he get a ring, or nah?

He's gotten a lot closer than Jeff Green has, and realistically, he's probably going to get closer than Green this year, too.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 09, 2013, 01:05:43 PM
The only real affect I recall was with Rondo, people might be "livid" at the time, but we looked good playing together.

We didn't look that good.  We finished out the year 15-12, which was pretty poor.  We played below .500 for the last quarter of the season.

Oh, we looked good with the newly acquired players... we just had some other roster problems that contributed to our struggle.

First, Krstic, KG, and Troy Murphy (who hadn't played all year until that point pretty much) were the only healthy bigs we had in some of our losses.

2 later loses with Pierce playing poorly, and Rondo playing some of the worst basketball of his life (which I've already attributed Rondo as being affected by the trade the most).

Then a game were we played late in the year without Rondo, Pierce, and Allen.

But in all, the consistent in all those games lost are poor games by Rondo, but we had other problems going for us that year other than getting Krstic and Green for Perk.

I thought Krstic assimilated with our team very well right off the bat, Green was a more work in progress.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: celts10 on February 09, 2013, 01:26:35 PM
I can, but a lot of people attached to Perk won't.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Vermont Green on February 09, 2013, 01:33:19 PM
Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.
OK, that sets the time line more accurately but the question is still how do you know it was the trade that affected team chemistry and not the Shaq injury revealing itself as being worse than originally thought?

So what is the lesson learned here.  Don't make a trade if someone on the team may not like it?

I think most people at this point recognize that the trade was good when you consider value in vs. value out.  So does a GM not make the trade based on value because a mercurial PG may not like it?

Maybe Danny could have handled the communication of the trade better, I don't know but if there is a player who stops playing becasue his friend is traded, that shouldn't affect the GM's decision to make a trade.  That is a problem with the player, not the GM.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 09, 2013, 01:34:53 PM
I can, because he got us Jeffrey Lynn Green!
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 24, 2013, 11:32:52 AM
But realistically...what's Perk doing over in OKC? 4 points and 6 rebounds?

... and anchoring the defense of a team that reached the Finals last year, and has the second best record in the NBA.

Perk's presence is about a lot more than points scored and rebounds collected.
That defense sure looks a whole lot of mediocre a lot of the time.

I haven't honestly watched them enough to say, but every time I talk to a Thunder fan all they want is to amnesty Perkins and start Ibaka over him.  Lets not be foolhardy and try to act like Perkins is some juggernaut defensive player who has a massive impact on the game.

He's a player who does the dirty work and works hard, but has Bynum calibre knee issues with a very low ceiling, is hugely overpaid, and has a minimal positive effect (Thunder fans even claim negative) on a team that wants to run.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 24, 2013, 11:44:37 AM
... every time I talk to a Thunder fan all they want is to amnesty Perkins and start Ibaka over him. 

Those Thunder fans must not be particularly savvy, then.

Slotting Perk at center allowed the Thunder to start Ibaka at PF, and to allow him to roam on defense.  Moving Ibaka over to center would minimize his talent, and would continuously put him against larger big men, rather than allowing him to maximize his defensive talent.

The Thunder defense is ranked 8th in the NBA.  Perk's presence is a big part of that.  He ranks 26th in the entire NBA in points allowed per possession, allowing only 36.4% shooting to his opponents overall.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 24, 2013, 11:52:51 AM
... every time I talk to a Thunder fan all they want is to amnesty Perkins and start Ibaka over him. 

Those Thunder fans must not be particularly savvy, then.

Slotting Perk at center allowed the Thunder to start Ibaka at PF, and to allow him to roam on defense.  Moving Ibaka over to center would minimize his talent, and would continuously put him against larger big men, rather than allowing him to maximize his defensive talent.

The Thunder defense is ranked 8th in the NBA.  Perk's presence is a big part of that.  He ranks 26th in the entire NBA in points allowed per possession, allowing only 36.4% shooting to his opponents overall.

Fair enough, though I didn' say they were particularly smart.  TP.

Either way, Perkins knees are a ticking timebomb that arguably have already gone off and he is going to only continue to decline.  Green is only going to improve and Green is already arguably better, and obviously younger.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CoachBo on February 24, 2013, 11:53:45 AM
I always have.

Perkins is consistently overrated on this board.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 24, 2013, 11:59:15 AM
Not to mention he was and is badly damaged goods.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: soap07 on February 24, 2013, 12:09:25 PM
But realistically...what's Perk doing over in OKC? 4 points and 6 rebounds?

... and anchoring the defense of a team that reached the Finals last year, and has the second best record in the NBA.

Perk's presence is about a lot more than points scored and rebounds collected.

Good thing it is - because he's terrible at both.

Quote
The Thunder defense is ranked 8th in the NBA.  Perk's presence is a big part of that.  He ranks 26th in the entire NBA in points allowed per possession, allowing only 36.4% shooting to his opponents overall.

His presence is not a big part of that. He's a net negative on the court. He plays barely half the game. The team gives 104.8 per 100 with him off court, 103.3 with him on it. Which is fine, he has a negligible positive defensive impact - but the offense is equally as worse with him on the court. So he really, his impact is...barely anything.

Combine that with the fact that he's a 7 footer who can't rebound and is continuing to decline....etc etc...


Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 24, 2013, 12:12:16 PM
If you assume KG was going to have to slide over to C to stay effective at this point in the career, Perk would be redundant by now anyway. 

Green and Lee definitely aren't (we gave up more for Lee but the pick was basically what the Rockets moved him for).  Melo's still a big TBD but it seems like we benefited from it.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: TripleOT on February 24, 2013, 12:13:06 PM
It was a bad trade that might have cost the Cs a banner or two.  If Green actually plays to the level of his latest contract, I might feel differently, but him having a couple of good games in a row isn't going to convince me. 

Regarding those who continue to devalue Perk's contribution in OKC, I say - take a look at the won-loss records of OKC and Boston since the trade.  For whatever reasons, it resulted in a serious change in win/loss for both franchises. 
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: soap07 on February 24, 2013, 12:16:55 PM
Quote
Regarding those who continue to devalue Perk's contribution in OKC, I say - take a look at the won-loss records of OKC and Boston since the trade.  For whatever reasons, it resulted in a serious change in win/loss for both franchises. 

Look at the won-loss record of Cleveland when LeBron went to the finals. Clearly, we should resign Sasha Pavlovic.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 24, 2013, 12:32:33 PM
It was a bad trade that might have cost the Cs a banner or two.  If Green actually plays to the level of his latest contract, I might feel differently, but him having a couple of good games in a row isn't going to convince me. 

Regarding those who continue to devalue Perk's contribution in OKC, I say - take a look at the won-loss records of OKC and Boston since the trade.  For whatever reasons, it resulted in a serious change in win/loss for both franchises.

-Durant becomes the second best player in the world
-Westbrook becomes a top 5 PG
-Harden becomes the leagues best sixth man
-Ibaka becomes one of the leagues best bigmen
-Pierce, KG, and Ray all exit their primes



No, you're right, it was all Perkins.   ::)

Quote
Regarding those who continue to devalue Perk's contribution in OKC, I say - take a look at the won-loss records of OKC and Boston since the trade.  For whatever reasons, it resulted in a serious change in win/loss for both franchises. 

Look at the won-loss record of Cleveland when LeBron went to the finals. Clearly, we should resign Sasha Pavlovic.

I think you're talking Udonis Haslem.  Lebron James hasn't won a single title without him.

Maybe Danny can work out a deal package of KG, Rondo and Green for Haslem.  Man, wouldn't that be the biggest steal in NBA history?  We'd be giving up a mere three franchise players for Udonis "automatic banner" Haslem.

I mean what was Danny thinking trading Perkins (who has a ring) and completely shot knees for a young lotto pick athlete with massive upside who DOESNT HAVE A RING?!?


FIRE AINGE
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BballTim on February 24, 2013, 12:39:43 PM
Someone said that after the trade, we won 5 straight, then Shaq got hurt or we found out how much he was hurt.  How does anyone know that it wasn't that which hurt team spirit?

Shaq got hurt about 3 weeks prior to the trade deadline.  Danny definitely underestimated the injury, although Shaq has indicated that Danny knew at the time that he might not be able to come back.
OK, that sets the time line more accurately but the question is still how do you know it was the trade that affected team chemistry and not the Shaq injury revealing itself as being worse than originally thought?

Reports at the time were that the team was "livid" and devastated by the deal.  The true extent of Shaq's injury -- that he'd be out for the season -- wasn't discovered until much later.  Indeed, the team still had Shaq trying to comeback in the playoffs, although he wasn't healthy enough to do so.

Didn't we later learn that the Big 3, or at least Pierce and Garnett were consulted on this possible trade and both signed-on or something?

The only real affect I recall was with Rondo, people might be "livid" at the time, but we looked good playing together.

  Rondo had a lot of health issues that year, starting with the plantar fascitis which bothered him all year. He also had some type of hand injury that affected his play. When he was playing well the team was one of the best in the league, when he wasn't the team was really struggling.

Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Kane3387 on February 24, 2013, 12:42:42 PM
I don't think people in here watch okc much. Collison typically finishes games. Perk barely played in the finals against Miami.

Still all this talk about us "winning the title in 2010" is pure nonsense. Whether it was perk or green on the floor wade is still dislocating our PGs arm. Rondo with one arm isn't getting the celtics a title so please put that one to rest.

Also as for a TE. Those normally don't work out and rarely if ever bring back a quality player. Utah with big al and la with nash are the only two that come to mind. David west signed for ten mill. Much more then perks starting Salary. Also a S and T would still have to take place requiring a three year deal. West wanted two years.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tyrone biggums on February 24, 2013, 01:16:39 PM
It was a bad trade that might have cost the Cs a banner or two.  If Green actually plays to the level of his latest contract, I might feel differently, but him having a couple of good games in a row isn't going to convince me. 

Regarding those who continue to devalue Perk's contribution in OKC, I say - take a look at the won-loss records of OKC and Boston since the trade.  For whatever reasons, it resulted in a serious change in win/loss for both franchises.

Nothing is guaranteed, Perkins was missed for most of that year and the Celtics were still killing it with Shaq and JO at the 5. However, by saying that you were against this trade you are automatically against trading Pierce and KG for something. The reason why Perk was traded is because he wanted to get paid like an upper tier center and Ainge wanted to get an asset for him before he went to free agency. They wanted to get a young asset instead of letting Perk walk. Not to mention that if Melo even becomes a remotely solid contributor in 2 years that deal will look terrible for OKC. Perkins has one of the worst contracts in the NBA...Ainge was right to make the move.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: kgainez on February 24, 2013, 01:47:06 PM
i hate the argument that we would've won if we didn't trade perk
lol
what?
how do you guys know that?

also...I think we're going to need a scorer on this team in the future. the future of centers and PFs in the nba is dramatically changing...more jump shooters, not a ton of posting and with the future of nba, it's not a lot of contact. let's be honest. we're breeding a bunch of softies.

JG for PP is going to be worth it. If we can develop Fab, keep the DJ White fella and get him to the right pieces ALONG with Sully, I still don't hate our team.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 24, 2013, 01:58:38 PM
I'm loving Green right now, but I feel like if we kept Perk that year, we would've had a much better shot at winning the title.  Pierce and Ray were having superb shooting years, Rondo kept improving, and KG was beginning to fully recover from the knee surgery.  Perk, while a shell of himself, was still an effective defender, and he was definitely better than an injured Shaq, a hobbled Jermaine, and Kristic.

Plus, IIRC, we were going to sign Dahntay Jones to back up Pierce after Quisy went down.  He would've been a decent backup, bringing good defense and sold shooting.

If we could've found a way to trade Perk that offseason, I would've been happy, because we might've had an eighteenth banner by then.

Again, I'm loving Green's play right now, though.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Surferdad on February 24, 2013, 02:15:32 PM
I'm loving Green right now, but I feel like if we kept Perk that year, we would've had a much better shot at winning the title.  Pierce and Ray were having superb shooting years, Rondo kept improving, and KG was beginning to fully recover from the knee surgery.  Perk, while a shell of himself, was still an effective defender, and he was definitely better than an injured Shaq, a hobbled Jermaine, and Kristic.

Plus, IIRC, we were going to sign Dahntay Jones to back up Pierce after Quisy went down.  He would've been a decent backup, bringing good defense and sold shooting.

If we could've found a way to trade Perk that offseason, I would've been happy, because we might've had an eighteenth banner by then.

Again, I'm loving Green's play right now, though.
I agree with this.  It is utterly ridiculous to say we could have won a few more titles, but certainly that year, it is legitimate argument that the trade hurt our chances. 
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: azzenfrost on February 24, 2013, 02:17:37 PM
He will never get credit for it. Green is doing really well but Perk had/has a lot of fans with the C's. The slightest chance that he gets any acknowledgement, it would be begrudgingly.

Perk was good for us then but I'm glad we have Green now.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: wiley on February 24, 2013, 02:24:19 PM
I thought it was a good trade at the time and I still think so.  However, Perk is a very valuable piece on a team going to the finals.  He brings leadership, intimidation, all the things that you want in the playoffs (won't be enough against Miami but that's another topic).

Sometimes it's not necessary to talk about winning or losing a trade....both teams got what they want.  Too bad all our Perk replacement centers all broke down physically....

If we hadn't nabbed Green Danny would have found someone else....like Green a lot right now.  If you like Green (and Sully or Fab, forgot which) give Danny credit.  If not, don't.


Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: jdz101 on February 24, 2013, 02:51:50 PM
I'm loving Green right now, but I feel like if we kept Perk that year, we would've had a much better shot at winning the title.  Pierce and Ray were having superb shooting years, Rondo kept improving, and KG was beginning to fully recover from the knee surgery.  Perk, while a shell of himself, was still an effective defender, and he was definitely better than an injured Shaq, a hobbled Jermaine, and Kristic.

Plus, IIRC, we were going to sign Dahntay Jones to back up Pierce after Quisy went down.  He would've been a decent backup, bringing good defense and sold shooting.

If we could've found a way to trade Perk that offseason, I would've been happy, because we might've had an eighteenth banner by then.

Again, I'm loving Green's play right now, though.
I agree with this.  It is utterly ridiculous to say we could have won a few more titles, but certainly that year, it is legitimate argument that the trade hurt our chances.

We werent close that year. Perk wouldnt have helped.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: TripleOT on February 24, 2013, 03:41:04 PM
I love how the Perk haters and Ainge sycophants can't give Perkins ANY credit for OKC's rise to the top of the league.

Their arguments are so bogus that I'm tiring of responding to them.  The facts are that one person in that trade has been a key cog in the second best team in the league since the trade and another has been a hot and cold bench contributor on a barely .500 team since that trade. 

Maybe it's all a big coincidence.  Or maybe OKC was being held back by Green's lukewarm play, and Perkins' skillset (however unskilled it may be) was exactly they needed to take off).  The way I see, Perkins brought a ton of needed leadership and toughness to that team, and also allowed Ibaka to flourish because Perkins could do all the interior dirty work, allowing Ibaka to freelance. 

There's something to be said for a team having great synergy.  The Cs had that with Perkins.  Now OKC has it, while the Celtics don't.  The Celtics have been butter soft int he paint since the Perkins trade, with no solution in sight.   
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CoachBo on February 24, 2013, 03:46:28 PM
You really think Perkins - not Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka - is responsible for OKC's "synergy?"

Wow.

Just wow.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 24, 2013, 03:49:13 PM
You really think Perkins - not Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka - is responsible for OKC's "synergy?"

Wow.

Just wow.

Let's not forget the emergence of Harden.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: jdz101 on February 24, 2013, 03:51:17 PM
I love how the Perk haters and Ainge sycophants can't give Perkins ANY credit for OKC's rise to the top of the league.

Their arguments are so bogus that I'm tiring of responding to them.  The facts are that one person in that trade has been a key cog in the second best team in the league since the trade and another has been a hot and cold bench contributor on a barely .500 team since that trade. 

Maybe it's all a big coincidence.  Or maybe OKC was being held back by Green's lukewarm play, and Perkins' skillset (however unskilled it may be) was exactly they needed to take off).  The way I see, Perkins brought a ton of needed leadership and toughness to that team, and also allowed Ibaka to flourish because Perkins could do all the interior dirty work, allowing Ibaka to freelance. 

There's something to be said for a team having great synergy.  The Cs had that with Perkins.  Now OKC has it, while the Celtics don't.  The Celtics have been butter soft int he paint since the Perkins trade, with no solution in sight.   

Correlation doesn't imply causation. (as many on this board remind me.)

Perk lovers are continuing to ignore the fact that they have two absolute athletic stud scorers that we don't, as well as Ibaka's maturation into a key player.

Perk is garbage. Watch the games.

Then again, if you want to attribute OKC's success to a hobbling, slow center that gives them 4 points and 5 rebounds in 25 minutes as a starter you're more than welcome to live in denial.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: LB3533 on February 24, 2013, 04:11:21 PM
Perk's last game as a Celtic he got injured (left knee) and then proceeded to miss 9 straight games. OKC went 6-2 without Perk available to them with the 2 losses to LA and Memphis. 6-2 is .750 winning percentage.

With the knowledge we had about our big men's health that season and our franchise's luck with injuries....there is a huge doubt that Perk would have remained healthy and effective the rest of the way.

If we didn't make that trade when we did, we probably wouldn't have had any health big at all going into the playoffs and zero backup help for Pierce.

We most likely would have lost to the Knicks in the 1st round.

*Note: Pierce was having a career year in FG shooting efficiency until February when he struggled shooting 42% overall and 26% from 3 point land.

I really believe trading for Jeff Green allowed Paul to return to earlier season form and finish the season strong in the months of March and half of April. In the Knicks series Pierce shot 46% from the field, 50% from 3 and 94% from the line, in a 4-0 sweep of New York.

**Note: Jeff Green in the playoffs played pretty well considering his playing time. He was very efficient, but he was not receiving a lot of time.

He played virtually the same amount of minutes as Delonte West and less minutes than Glenn Davis, less minutes than Jermaine freaking O'Neal who had a broken wrist, if I recall correctly.

Against the Knicks, Green's offense was a non factor, but we swept the Knicks regardless of Green's offensive contributions or lack there of....so no harm, no foul.

Against Miami, Green shot 54% overall from the field and 60% from 3 pt land. We lost to Miami partly because Rondo got hurt and largely because Chris Bosh out played Kevin Garnett over the last 2 games of that series.


***Note: Nenad Kristic is not a great big man, he was never a great big man or awesome rebounder, but what he was, was another body we could have used. And when we traded for him, Doc was using him...some nights he was playing 25 minutes or more, some nights he was playing 30 minutes or more.

But in the playoffs, Doc decided not to play Nenad at all. 7 minutes one game, 11 minutes another, 5 minutes, DNP, DNP etc. It appeared that Doc trusted a hurt Jermaine O'Neal over a live fresh body.


Bottom line with that Celtic team, there were a lot of other factors that derailed the team from contending in the playoffs that season.


Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 24, 2013, 04:16:14 PM
Perk's last game as a Celtic he got injured (left knee) and then proceeded to miss 9 straight games. OKC went 6-2 without Perk available to them with the 2 losses to LA and Memphis. 6-2 is .750 winning percentage.

With the knowledge we had about our big men's health that season and our franchise's luck with injuries....there is a huge doubt that Perk would have remained healthy and effective the rest of the way.

If we didn't make that trade when we did, we probably wouldn't have had any health big at all going into the playoffs and zero backup help for Pierce.

We most likely would have lost to the Knicks in the 1st round.

*Note: Pierce was having a career year in FG shooting efficiency until February when he struggled shooting 42% overall and 26% from 3 point land.

I really believe trading for Jeff Green allowed Paul to return to earlier season form and finish the season strong in the months of March and half of April. In the Knicks series Pierce shot 46% from the field, 50% from 3 and 94% from the line, in a 4-0 sweep of New York.

**Note: Jeff Green in the playoffs played pretty well considering his playing time. He was very efficient, but he was not receiving a lot of time.

He played virtually the same amount of minutes as Delonte West and less minutes than Glenn Davis, less minutes than Jermaine freaking O'Neal who had a broken wrist, if I recall correctly.

Against the Knicks, Green's offense was a non factor, but we swept the Knicks regardless of Green's offensive contributions or lack there of....so no harm, no foul.

Against Miami, Green shot 54% overall from the field and 60% from 3 pt land. We lost to Miami partly because Rondo got hurt and largely because Chris Bosh out played Kevin Garnett over the last 2 games of that series.


***Note: Nenad Kristic is not a great big man, he was never a great big man or awesome rebounder, but what he was, was another body we could have used. And when we traded for him, Doc was using him...some nights he was playing 25 minutes or more, some nights he was playing 30 minutes or more.

But in the playoffs, Doc decided not to play Nenad at all. 7 minutes one game, 11 minutes another, 5 minutes, DNP, DNP etc. It appeared that Doc trusted a hurt Jermaine O'Neal over a live fresh body.


Bottom line with that Celtic team, there were a lot of other factors that derailed the team from contending in the playoffs that season.

  • Rondo's injury
    Shaq's failed recovery
    Doc's refusal to play Nenad
    Glenn Davis disappearing from April and all of the playoffs

I thought Davis got hurt himself too at some point after the trade. And I recall Nenad working on some injury as we were leading up to the playoffs. Still, despite the reputation as a weak rebounder, Nenad actually was rebounding the ball quite well for us, particularly on the offensive glass. He was also doing some good work offensively around the basket, converting easy buckets.

And don't discount the defensive work Green put on Melo, which helped tremendously to contain the Knicks.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 24, 2013, 04:28:10 PM
Perk is garbage.

Garbage that ranks 26th in the entire league in opponents' points allowed per possession.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: OsirusCeltics on February 24, 2013, 04:56:08 PM
I have Ainge credit the day he made the trade
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Induna on February 24, 2013, 05:04:22 PM
Anyone who thinks Perkins for Green is not a steal has very little understanding of basketball. While Perkins fills a need he is only valuable with talent around him. Green is talent you can put Perkins type role players around.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 24, 2013, 05:08:19 PM
Anyone who thinks Perkins for Green is not a steal has very little understanding of basketball.

Anyone who thinks this is a persuasive argument has very little understanding of how to present their ideas logically.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: bfrombleacher on February 24, 2013, 05:17:18 PM
Anyone who thinks Perkins for Green is not a steal has very little understanding of basketball. While Perkins fills a need he is only valuable with talent around him. Green is talent you can put Perkins type role players around.

Green has always had the potential to be talent you can put Perkins type role players around.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: TheTruthFot18 on February 24, 2013, 05:24:49 PM
I wasn't sure either way when the deal went down but the only title we missed when Perk was gone was 2010 in LA. Wasn't going to happen 2011 (Could Perk win us three games in a best of 7?)

Danny clearly had an eye on the future. At the time he had to consider what PP would do and how he wanted to see this team build going forward. Thinking Rondo's development in the prior 2-3 years had an influence on the trade.

If you're playing Miami, do you want someone who will take fouls (from someone else) in the paint leading to 50 FT's attempts or an athletic wing who has a shot of shutting down Lebron/Wade before they start a shot, not to mention can make up for whatever additional defense Perk brought on the offensive end.

I'm sure you can ask OKC how things with Perk are going.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Fred Roberts on February 24, 2013, 05:42:32 PM
It was a hard trade to swallow at the time, but one that I thought would be good for the long term -- not the short term. I think that is going to be the case. Sure, give him credit.

On another note, let's demolish the Blazers tonight and keep gelling as a young, athletic and crafty team. I'm liking this new look squad.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Induna on February 24, 2013, 06:05:22 PM
Anyone who thinks Perkins for Green is not a steal has very little understanding of basketball.

Anyone who thinks this is a persuasive argument has very little understanding of how to present their ideas logically.

do tell how does one present one's ideas (or perhaps argument) Logically and while you doing that it would be good if you explained how the logical presentation of an idea is diminished by my presentation. You may disagree and that's cool but logical presentation?? that makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 24, 2013, 06:06:33 PM
Anyone who thinks Perkins for Green is not a steal has very little understanding of basketball.

Anyone who thinks this is a persuasive argument has very little understanding of how to present their ideas logically.

I lol'd. xD
But Green is much better than Perk in basketball standards now, and in three years.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 24, 2013, 06:12:39 PM
Anyone who thinks Perkins for Green is not a steal has very little understanding of basketball.

Anyone who thinks this is a persuasive argument has very little understanding of how to present their ideas logically.

do tell how does one present one's ideas (or perhaps argument) Logically and while you doing that it would be good if you explained how the logical presentation of an idea is diminished by my presentation. You may disagree and that's cool but logical presentation?? that makes no sense at all.

A logical argument involves rationally explaining one's point of view and showing why it makes sense, rather than saying (essentially) "My opinion is obviously right, and anybody who doesn't agree is an idiot".

Literally hundreds of posters on this blog have disagreed with your assessment of the trade.  To suggest that they don't understand basketball not only is against our rules, but it shows how close-minded your own view of basketball is.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 24, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
Anyone who thinks Perkins for Green is not a steal has very little understanding of basketball.

Anyone who thinks this is a persuasive argument has very little understanding of how to present their ideas logically.

do tell how does one present one's ideas (or perhaps argument) Logically and while you doing that it would be good if you explained how the logical presentation of an idea is diminished by my presentation. You may disagree and that's cool but logical presentation?? that makes no sense at all.

A logical argument involves rationally explaining one's point of view and showing why it makes sense, rather than saying (essentially) "My opinion is obviously right, and anybody who doesn't agree is an idiot".

Literally hundreds of posters on this blog have disagreed with your assessment of the trade.  To suggest that they don't understand basketball not only is against our rules, but it shows how close-minded your own view of basketball is.

And no matter what, state your rationale so we know where your declaration is coming from!
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: jdz101 on February 24, 2013, 06:24:51 PM
Perk is garbage.

Garbage that ranks 26th in the entire league in opponents' points allowed per possession.

26th isn't that great for a center that is meant to be a defensive specialist.

How about the net points for versus points against for his position?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BballTim on February 24, 2013, 06:44:17 PM
Perk is garbage.

Garbage that ranks 26th in the entire league in opponents' points allowed per possession.

26th isn't that great for a center that is meant to be a defensive specialist.

How about the net points for versus points against for his position?

  That's 26th out of all players (starters and reserves) in the league, it's better than you think. It's the same as KG and better than most of the centers of the top defenses in the league, also better than Tyson Chandler.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 24, 2013, 06:48:54 PM
Perk is garbage.

Garbage that ranks 26th in the entire league in opponents' points allowed per possession.

26th isn't that great for a center that is meant to be a defensive specialist.

How about the net points for versus points against for his position?

As BBTim said, 26th in the NBA is very good.  It's especially good for a big man, as players who play close to the basket are by their nature going to give up shots that are usually higher percentage looks.  Perk has held opponents to something like 36% shooting.  How can you look at that as a bad thing?

Perk is in the top 6% of all defensive players in the league.  That's pretty dang good.  In practice, Perk's stalwart defense has allowed Ibaka to roam, maximizing OKC's defensive potential.  There's a ton of value in that.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 24, 2013, 06:54:57 PM
Perk is garbage.

Garbage that ranks 26th in the entire league in opponents' points allowed per possession.

26th isn't that great for a center that is meant to be a defensive specialist.

How about the net points for versus points against for his position?

Good points. Collins was even better (97th percentile), which I think is 15th or so in a league of 450 players. And Stiemsma was 29th in the league last year as of April. If most other players in the top 50 are defensive bigs, Perk might not be special. (Darko ranked out exceptionally on this metric too if you recall). There are some other issues too - I think last year Barnagni was top 20 and Tony Allen was something like 150th in the NBA overall.

In terms of team defense, OkC is about one point better on D with Perk on the floor - and they are also about one point worse on O. At least according to 82games.com (which I don't always trust).

The other interesting thing from 82games is that Perk's opponent PER is quite high at 17.1.

I'm not quite sure how to fit all of these metrics together, because they all have their limitations. I guess I'd view them as indicating that Perk is pretty good, at least, but I don't think they prove that he's a top defender at his position.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 24, 2013, 07:06:35 PM
A couple of other thoughts after reading the thread:

I think it's critical to evaluate this as a trade that involves not only the players traded but the potential replacements one would get after the trade. Even if the two players involved are of equal talent, losing depth at C is so much more costly because league wide talent is so much thinner there than at the wing positions.

I mean, we are seeing this right now. We just picked up two perfectly serviceable NBA- level guards with little trouble, and we've been trying unsuccessfully to add big man depth for the last three years.

If we hadn't gotten Green, someone like Matt Barnes would be a fine replacement...so the trade was really about having "Green plus scrap heap big man X" or "Perk plus castoff SF X." It's the pair of players that matters, not just Green vs. Perk, and I think our ability to get a decent backup SF would have been much better than it has been getting a backup C.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 24, 2013, 07:09:06 PM
A couple of other thoughts after reading the thread:

I think it's critical to evaluate this as a trade that involves not only the players traded but the potential replacements one would get after the trade. Even if the two players involved are of equal talent, losing depth at C is so much more costly because league wide talent is so much thinner there than at the wing positions.

I mean, we are seeing this right now. We just picked up two perfectly serviceable NBA- level guards with little trouble, and we've been trying unsuccessfully to add big man depth for the last three years.

If we hadn't gotten Green, someone like Matt Barnes would be a fine replacement...so the trade was really about having "Green plus scrap heap big man X" or "Perk plus castoff SF X." It's the pair of players that matters, not just Green vs. Perk, and I think our ability to get a decent backup SF would have been much better than it has been getting a backup C.

First, we didn't lose depth at center...

Secondly, well let's just leave it at that.

Well, let me just say that Ainge had no interest in resigning Perk at his cost.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: soap07 on February 24, 2013, 07:14:22 PM
Perk is garbage.

Garbage that ranks 26th in the entire league in opponents' points allowed per possession.

26th isn't that great for a center that is meant to be a defensive specialist.

How about the net points for versus points against for his position?

As BBTim said, 26th in the NBA is very good.  It's especially good for a big man, as players who play close to the basket are by their nature going to give up shots that are usually higher percentage looks.  Perk has held opponents to something like 36% shooting.  How can you look at that as a bad thing?

Perk is in the top 6% of all defensive players in the league.  That's pretty dang good.  In practice, Perk's stalwart defense has allowed Ibaka to roam, maximizing OKC's defensive potential.  There's a ton of value in that.

As has been beaten to death on this board, the Thunder are a net negative with him on the court. And a center's job is not just to play defense. Perkins is a terrible rebounder. He's a net negative on multiple fronts.

I don't deny he plays good defense but his impact is overstated. He plays half the game and the Thunder are just fine on defense when he's out of the game - and in many ways, better off. The cherry on top is Perkins' absurd contract.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 24, 2013, 07:36:52 PM
A couple of other thoughts after reading the thread:

I think it's critical to evaluate this as a trade that involves not only the players traded but the potential replacements one would get after the trade. Even if the two players involved are of equal talent, losing depth at C is so much more costly because league wide talent is so much thinner there than at the wing positions.

I mean, we are seeing this right now. We just picked up two perfectly serviceable NBA- level guards with little trouble, and we've been trying unsuccessfully to add big man depth for the last three years.

If we hadn't gotten Green, someone like Matt Barnes would be a fine replacement...so the trade was really about having "Green plus scrap heap big man X" or "Perk plus castoff SF X." It's the pair of players that matters, not just Green vs. Perk, and I think our ability to get a decent backup SF would have been much better than it has been getting a backup C.

First, we didn't lose depth at center...

Secondly, well let's just leave it at that.

Well, let me just say that Ainge had no interest in resigning Perk at his cost.

We would have had Perk for the rest of the year, and also might have been able to sign and trade him for another big man, or a high pick to use on drafting one. And if you're referring to Krstic...he's played a total of 24 games in the NBA since the trade, and even when we had him he was a benchwarmers by the end of the season. I call that losing depth.

I actually didn't hate the trade, for what that's worth, but mostly because of the Clippers pick. If the Paul trade doesn't happen we are probably looking at Meyers Leonard, John Henson and Tyler Zeller, who are all pretty decent big man prospects.

My point was really just that arguing that it was a good/bad trade because Green is better than Perk, or vice versa, doesn't tell the whole story.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 24, 2013, 07:43:16 PM
A couple of other thoughts after reading the thread:

I think it's critical to evaluate this as a trade that involves not only the players traded but the potential replacements one would get after the trade. Even if the two players involved are of equal talent, losing depth at C is so much more costly because league wide talent is so much thinner there than at the wing positions.

I mean, we are seeing this right now. We just picked up two perfectly serviceable NBA- level guards with little trouble, and we've been trying unsuccessfully to add big man depth for the last three years.

If we hadn't gotten Green, someone like Matt Barnes would be a fine replacement...so the trade was really about having "Green plus scrap heap big man X" or "Perk plus castoff SF X." It's the pair of players that matters, not just Green vs. Perk, and I think our ability to get a decent backup SF would have been much better than it has been getting a backup C.

First, we didn't lose depth at center...

Secondly, well let's just leave it at that.

Well, let me just say that Ainge had no interest in resigning Perk at his cost.

We would have had Perk for the rest of the year, and also might have been able to sign and trade him for another big man, or a high pick to use on drafting one. And if you're referring to Krstic...he's played a total of 24 games in the NBA since the trade, and even when we had him he was a benchwarmers by the end of the season. I call that losing depth.

I actually didn't hate the trade, for what that's worth, but mostly because of the Clippers pick. If the Paul trade doesn't happen we are probably looking at Meyers Leonard, John Henson and Tyler Zeller, who are all pretty decent big man prospects.

My point was really just that arguing that it was a good/bad trade because Green is better than Perk, or vice versa, doesn't tell the whole story.
I agree with your idea of how to evaluate a trade, but I don't think it fits into this particular discussion. Not only did we gain a good young player to play back-up SF, we also got a capable healthy center in return. And as you say, that draft pick.

Krstic not getting on the floor more was Doc's issue though, not a roster or Danny Ainge issue. Consequently, he got hurt a bit as we were entering the playoffs, but a bit irrelevant all told. Should've had a bigger role in the playoffs than he was granted.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: TheTruthFot18 on February 24, 2013, 07:59:51 PM
I thought we weren't supposed to talk about the trade for you know who to get you know who. Be careful, the man is watching  :(
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Celtics18 on February 24, 2013, 08:30:09 PM
A couple of other thoughts after reading the thread:

I think it's critical to evaluate this as a trade that involves not only the players traded but the potential replacements one would get after the trade. Even if the two players involved are of equal talent, losing depth at C is so much more costly because league wide talent is so much thinner there than at the wing positions.

I mean, we are seeing this right now. We just picked up two perfectly serviceable NBA- level guards with little trouble, and we've been trying unsuccessfully to add big man depth for the last three years.

If we hadn't gotten Green, someone like Matt Barnes would be a fine replacement...so the trade was really about having "Green plus scrap heap big man X" or "Perk plus castoff SF X." It's the pair of players that matters, not just Green vs. Perk, and I think our ability to get a decent backup SF would have been much better than it has been getting a backup C.

First, we didn't lose depth at center...

Secondly, well let's just leave it at that.

Well, let me just say that Ainge had no interest in resigning Perk at his cost.

We would have had Perk for the rest of the year, and also might have been able to sign and trade him for another big man, or a high pick to use on drafting one. And if you're referring to Krstic...he's played a total of 24 games in the NBA since the trade, and even when we had him he was a benchwarmers by the end of the season. I call that losing depth.

I actually didn't hate the trade, for what that's worth, but mostly because of the Clippers pick. If the Paul trade doesn't happen we are probably looking at Meyers Leonard, John Henson and Tyler Zeller, who are all pretty decent big man prospects.

My point was really just that arguing that it was a good/bad trade because Green is better than Perk, or vice versa, doesn't tell the whole story.

The Paul trade may have ended up being a blessing in disguise.  If Sully's back can recover, he may end up being better than any of those guys that went before him. 
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 24, 2013, 08:32:54 PM
A couple of other thoughts after reading the thread:

I think it's critical to evaluate this as a trade that involves not only the players traded but the potential replacements one would get after the trade. Even if the two players involved are of equal talent, losing depth at C is so much more costly because league wide talent is so much thinner there than at the wing positions.

I mean, we are seeing this right now. We just picked up two perfectly serviceable NBA- level guards with little trouble, and we've been trying unsuccessfully to add big man depth for the last three years.

If we hadn't gotten Green, someone like Matt Barnes would be a fine replacement...so the trade was really about having "Green plus scrap heap big man X" or "Perk plus castoff SF X." It's the pair of players that matters, not just Green vs. Perk, and I think our ability to get a decent backup SF would have been much better than it has been getting a backup C.

First, we didn't lose depth at center...

Secondly, well let's just leave it at that.

Well, let me just say that Ainge had no interest in resigning Perk at his cost.

We would have had Perk for the rest of the year, and also might have been able to sign and trade him for another big man, or a high pick to use on drafting one. And if you're referring to Krstic...he's played a total of 24 games in the NBA since the trade, and even when we had him he was a benchwarmers by the end of the season. I call that losing depth.

I actually didn't hate the trade, for what that's worth, but mostly because of the Clippers pick. If the Paul trade doesn't happen we are probably looking at Meyers Leonard, John Henson and Tyler Zeller, who are all pretty decent big man prospects.

My point was really just that arguing that it was a good/bad trade because Green is better than Perk, or vice versa, doesn't tell the whole story.

The Paul trade may have ended up being a blessing in disguise.  If Sully's back can recover, he may end up being better than any of those guys that went before him.

No. The pick was used on Melo. Sully would've still been on the board for our pick.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 24, 2013, 08:38:35 PM
Anyone who thinks Perkins for Green is not a steal has very little understanding of basketball.

Anyone who thinks this is a persuasive argument has very little understanding of how to present their ideas logically.

do tell how does one present one's ideas (or perhaps argument) Logically and while you doing that it would be good if you explained how the logical presentation of an idea is diminished by my presentation. You may disagree and that's cool but logical presentation?? that makes no sense at all.

A logical argument involves rationally explaining one's point of view and showing why it makes sense, rather than saying (essentially) "My opinion is obviously right, and anybody who doesn't agree is an idiot".

Literally hundreds of posters on this blog have disagreed with your assessment of the trade.  To suggest that they don't understand basketball not only is against our rules, but it shows how close-minded your own view of basketball is.

And no matter what, state your rationale so we know where your declaration is coming from!

He did give a rationale, it was left out of the original quote.  Basically Perk is a role player and Green is the sort of guy you put role players around.  I mostly agree with it, though disagreeing doesn't mean you don't know anything about basketball (hey triple negative!)
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Smitty77 on February 24, 2013, 08:42:04 PM
Boris,

I don't think it is fair to mention that Kristic only played 26 games in the NBA after the trade.  He CHOSE to take a nice offer overseas if memory serves me correctly.  I am old, so I might not be remembering correctly tho:-))

Smitty77
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Kane3387 on February 24, 2013, 08:42:55 PM
Boris,

I don't think it is fair to mention that Kristic only played 26 games in the NBA after the trade.  He CHOSE to take a nice offer overseas if memory serves me correctly.  I am old, so I might not be remembering correctly tho:-))

Smitty77

Yeah he didn't want to sit around for the lockout.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: vjcsmoke on February 24, 2013, 08:59:18 PM
Jeff Green is more talented than Perkins.  But if he had stayed, we had a chance of winning the championship that year.  Ainge gambled that Shaq or O'Neal would stay healthy and it didn't happen. That cost us a title shot.  So you've got to ask yourself if losing a legit chance at the title is worth acquiring Jeff Green for the future.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 24, 2013, 10:26:28 PM
Boris,

I don't think it is fair to mention that Kristic only played 26 games in the NBA after the trade.  He CHOSE to take a nice offer overseas if memory serves me correctly.  I am old, so I might not be remembering correctly tho:-))

Smitty77

I guess the question is whether Presti or even Ainge knew that Krstic had a real chance of choosing to go home. That might explain why he was included in the trade. We'll never know.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on February 24, 2013, 10:32:38 PM
Boris,

I don't think it is fair to mention that Kristic only played 26 games in the NBA after the trade.  He CHOSE to take a nice offer overseas if memory serves me correctly.  I am old, so I might not be remembering correctly tho:-))

Smitty77

I guess the question is whether Presti or even Ainge knew that Krstic had a real chance of choosing to go home. That might explain why he was included in the trade. We'll never know.

I think Presti didn't care all that much; he knew Krstic isn't the type of center you can build around or commit too long-term.

As for Danny, he knew Krstic was a free agent, and should have anticipated that him leaving was a possibility.  I'm sure it was a consideration.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Cman on February 24, 2013, 10:39:40 PM
Jeff Green is more talented than Perkins.  But if he had stayed, we had a chance of winning the championship that year.  Ainge gambled that Shaq or O'Neal would stay healthy and it didn't happen. That cost us a title shot.  So you've got to ask yourself if losing a legit chance at the title is worth acquiring Jeff Green for the future.

Meh, we also didn't know about Perkins' health. He, like Shaq and JO was a pretty big question mark. Turns out he was okay, turns out the trade probably worked against the Cs short term, but perhaps for the Cs long term. I don't really care anymore.

The bigger question, IMHO, is why these threads keep popping up.
An even bigger question is why I read them.
Biggest question of all? You guessed it: why do I respond to the bait??
I fall for it every time, though. :)
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: saltlover on February 24, 2013, 11:43:20 PM
Jeff Green is more talented than Perkins.  But if he had stayed, we had a chance of winning the championship that year.  Ainge gambled that Shaq or O'Neal would stay healthy and it didn't happen. That cost us a title shot.  So you've got to ask yourself if losing a legit chance at the title is worth acquiring Jeff Green for the future.

Rondo's elbow getting knocked out of its socket by wade cost us an opportunity for a championship, not whatever difference existed between Perkins and Green.  We blew the Knicks off the court in the first round of the playoffs that year.  But no Rondo, or a very limited Rondo, decided the Miami series, and the playoffs.  That trade simply did not cost us a championship.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Induna on February 25, 2013, 12:55:53 AM
Anyone who thinks Perkins for Green is not a steal has very little understanding of basketball.

Anyone who thinks this is a persuasive argument has very little understanding of how to present their ideas logically.

do tell how does one present one's ideas (or perhaps argument) Logically and while you doing that it would be good if you explained how the logical presentation of an idea is diminished by my presentation. You may disagree and that's cool but logical presentation?? that makes no sense at all.

A logical argument involves rationally explaining one's point of view and showing why it makes sense, rather than saying (essentially) "My opinion is obviously right, and anybody who doesn't agree is an idiot".

Literally hundreds of posters on this blog have disagreed with your assessment of the trade.  To suggest that they don't understand basketball not only is against our rules, but it shows how close-minded your own view of basketball is.

The fact that I expressed an opinion doe not make the argument or the point being argued any less logical controversial... maybe, opinionated... sure perhaps even disrespectful. I do suggest that in the case of the Perkins Green trade thinking Perkins is better than Green demonstrates a lack of understanding of basketball. I am sure we can agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BballTim on March 08, 2013, 10:32:57 AM
Perk is garbage.

Garbage that ranks 26th in the entire league in opponents' points allowed per possession.

26th isn't that great for a center that is meant to be a defensive specialist.

How about the net points for versus points against for his position?

As BBTim said, 26th in the NBA is very good.  It's especially good for a big man, as players who play close to the basket are by their nature going to give up shots that are usually higher percentage looks.  Perk has held opponents to something like 36% shooting.  How can you look at that as a bad thing?

Perk is in the top 6% of all defensive players in the league.  That's pretty dang good.  In practice, Perk's stalwart defense has allowed Ibaka to roam, maximizing OKC's defensive potential.  There's a ton of value in that.

  While I realize that people are tired of the Perk/Green talk, one of the articles from the Sloan conference (that I haven't read too much of yet) was about interior defense:

http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/The%20Dwight%20Effect%20A%20New%20Ensemble%20of%20Interior%20Defense%20Analytics%20for%20the%20NBA.pdf

  According to their analysis (which, again, I haven't fully read yet) they have Perk rated as the 3rd best interior defender in the league.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on March 08, 2013, 10:50:07 AM
Jeff Green is more talented than Perkins.  But if he had stayed, we had a chance of winning the championship that year.  Ainge gambled that Shaq or O'Neal would stay healthy and it didn't happen. That cost us a title shot.  So you've got to ask yourself if losing a legit chance at the title is worth acquiring Jeff Green for the future.

Rondo's elbow getting knocked out of its socket by wade cost us an opportunity for a championship, not whatever difference existed between Perkins and Green.  We blew the Knicks off the court in the first round of the playoffs that year.  But no Rondo, or a very limited Rondo, decided the Miami series, and the playoffs.  That trade simply did not cost us a championship.

Nah, we were already down 0-2 before that rondo injury and I'm pretty confident we lose that series even if rondo stayed healthy. If you're saying that injury squashed whatever little hope we had then yeah I guess I agree.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticsFan9 on March 08, 2013, 10:53:36 AM
Jeff Green is more talented than Perkins.  But if he had stayed, we had a chance of winning the championship that year.  Ainge gambled that Shaq or O'Neal would stay healthy and it didn't happen. That cost us a title shot.  So you've got to ask yourself if losing a legit chance at the title is worth acquiring Jeff Green for the future.

Rondo's elbow getting knocked out of its socket by wade cost us an opportunity for a championship, not whatever difference existed between Perkins and Green.  We blew the Knicks off the court in the first round of the playoffs that year.  But no Rondo, or a very limited Rondo, decided the Miami series, and the playoffs.  That trade simply did not cost us a championship.

Nah, we were already down 0-2 before that rondo injury and I'm pretty confident we lose that series even if rondo stayed healthy. If you're saying that injury squashed whatever little hope we had then yeah I guess I agree.

Even though we lost that series in 5, every game was tightly contested.  I think we would've pulled it out if Rondo had been healthy.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: clover on March 08, 2013, 11:15:41 AM
Perk is garbage.

Garbage that ranks 26th in the entire league in opponents' points allowed per possession.

26th isn't that great for a center that is meant to be a defensive specialist.

How about the net points for versus points against for his position?

As BBTim said, 26th in the NBA is very good.  It's especially good for a big man, as players who play close to the basket are by their nature going to give up shots that are usually higher percentage looks.  Perk has held opponents to something like 36% shooting.  How can you look at that as a bad thing?

Perk is in the top 6% of all defensive players in the league.  That's pretty dang good.  In practice, Perk's stalwart defense has allowed Ibaka to roam, maximizing OKC's defensive potential.  There's a ton of value in that.

  While I realize that people are tired of the Perk/Green talk, one of the articles from the Sloan conference (that I haven't read too much of yet) was about interior defense:

http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/The%20Dwight%20Effect%20A%20New%20Ensemble%20of%20Interior%20Defense%20Analytics%20for%20the%20NBA.pdf

  According to their analysis (which, again, I haven't fully read yet) they have Perk rated as the 3rd best interior defender in the league.

A ranking in which Perk comes in behind #2, Bargnani.  Food for thought.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: LB3533 on March 08, 2013, 11:16:48 AM

No. The pick was used on Melo. Sully would've still been on the board for our pick.

It's tough to say, I do think you may be right, but had we not had that 2nd pick do our motivations or strategies change?

If we only had one pick, would we have taken the risk on Sully or followed much like every other team and passed on him?

Maybe, had we only the 1 pick we would have drafted Melo with it over Sullinger.

Who really knows?

Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: LooseCannon on March 08, 2013, 11:24:34 AM
If Ainge could have traded Perk for Green in the off-season instead of waiting until Perkins was healthy, perhaps Green would have gotten up to speed by the end of the season to where he is now and replaced Glen Davis in the crunch time lineup.  Where would the Celtics be then?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 08, 2013, 11:25:22 AM

No. The pick was used on Melo. Sully would've still been on the board for our pick.

It's tough to say, I do think you may be right, but had we not had that 2nd pick do our motivations or strategies change?

If we only had one pick, would we have taken the risk on Sully or followed much like every other team and passed on him?

Maybe, had we only the 1 pick we would have drafted Melo with it over Sullinger.

Who really knows?

It's too tough to say. Our two picks strongly influenced who we picked.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: gpap on March 08, 2013, 11:32:05 AM
One other point to make that I'm surprised no one has brought up.

No 1, I wouldn't have traded Perk. However, if Ainge was adamant about trading him (which it looks like he was) then I would've dealt Perk to Houston for Shane Battier.

Remember, Battier was on the trading block during this time and got moved to Memphis a day before the Perk/Green deal.

If Ainge truly felt we needed another wing instead of keeping our starting center, I think Battier would've contributed alot more for that season (and man he's killing it for Miami off the bench.)

As talented as Green is/was, he's too young a player to have contributed to a veteran team in such a quick amount of time.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: kozlodoev on March 08, 2013, 12:05:06 PM
One other point to make that I'm surprised no one has brought up.

No 1, I wouldn't have traded Perk. However, if Ainge was adamant about trading him (which it looks like he was) then I would've dealt Perk to Houston for Shane Battier.

Remember, Battier was on the trading block during this time and got moved to Memphis a day before the Perk/Green deal.

If Ainge truly felt we needed another wing instead of keeping our starting center, I think Battier would've contributed alot more for that season (and man he's killing it for Miami off the bench.)

As talented as Green is/was, he's too young a player to have contributed to a veteran team in such a quick amount of time.
I don't think that at this point Ainge (or anyone else for that matter) expected that Garnett and Pierce would be able to play so long at such a high level. At least part of the idea was to work towards building a glut of core players that would have a similar career spans to Rondo.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: LooseCannon on March 08, 2013, 12:10:51 PM
Battier was an obvious rental, so Perk would have been too much.  The trade for Green was a move made with the future beyond that season in mind, since Ainge seemed to feel pretty clearly that Perkins would leave in free agency.

So, imagine that the league doesn't void the trade of Chris Paul to the Lakers and the Clippers pick ends up being 11th (and it was top-ten protected, I believe).  The next few players drafted who were available at that point are Meyers Leonard, Jeremy Lamb, Kendall Marshall, John Henson, and Marice Harkness.  Now imagine that the Celtics could have used their own first pick to move up (so no Sullinger).  The players drafted in those slots were Austin Rivers (ugh) and Andre Drummond (not ugh).
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on March 19, 2013, 02:12:10 AM
Bumping this.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on March 19, 2013, 02:18:17 AM
Still too early. We knew he was capable of this... what next?

We have all slept with a woman we felt, at the time, was out of our league. But how many times will (or did, for you older gentlemen) it happen over the course of our lives!?

(perhaps for another thread, but actually interested to hear from the older gentlemen on this one, lol)
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: LarBrd33 on March 19, 2013, 02:30:47 AM
people want Green to dominate every single night and that's just silly... his per minute numbers are as good as they ever were in OKC.  He's a fantastic player.  Perk is pretty overpaid for what he provides.  It would have been a perfect trade had Shaq stayed healthy or if we had replaced Perk with a serviceable center.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: lightspeed5 on March 19, 2013, 02:35:39 AM
green's defense is elite, and now he shows he can be an elite force on offense.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on March 19, 2013, 02:50:57 AM
people want Green to dominate every single night and that's just silly... his per minute numbers are as good as they ever were in OKC.  He's a fantastic player.  Perk is pretty overpaid for what he provides.  It would have been a perfect trade had Shaq stayed healthy or if we had replaced Perk with a serviceable center.

Respectfully disagree. Fans want to see Green play to his potential... not produce numbers acceptable according to his salary. If he can dominate against the best team in the league, he can dominate often... if he doesn't, he's not performing. In my field, if I don't perform to my potential, I'm screwed... so why is he off the hook?

(This implies he has not performed to his potential at this point, which would be tough to argue from your perspective, don't you think?)
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: jdz101 on March 19, 2013, 05:07:43 AM
people want Green to dominate every single night and that's just silly... his per minute numbers are as good as they ever were in OKC.  He's a fantastic player.  Perk is pretty overpaid for what he provides.  It would have been a perfect trade had Shaq stayed healthy or if we had replaced Perk with a serviceable center.

Respectfully disagree. Fans want to see Green play to his potential... not produce numbers acceptable according to his salary. If he can dominate against the best team in the league, he can dominate often... if he doesn't, he's not performing. In my field, if I don't perform to my potential, I'm screwed... so why is he off the hook?

(This implies he has not performed to his potential at this point, which would be tough to argue from your perspective, don't you think?)

You're completely focusing on Green's potential to perform and neglecting how the opponent defends and performs against him. It's a fairly Skip Bayless-esque view to take. NBA basketball isn't simply: "this guy is really physically gifted and talented so he should be dropping 30 every night". It is a two-team game that is heavily dependent on how BOTH teams perform. Unless you have a supremely talented superstar player that gets the keys of the offense given to them, you can't expect numbers like that every night. Green isn't one of those guys. He has flaws and he certainly isn't given the keys to the offense and doesn't have 2 or 3 picks set for him every play.

The guy is coming back off heart surgery. He is not 100% fit. And we didn't pay him an ubermax deal. Don't have ubermax expectations and enjoy the ride.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: eugen on March 19, 2013, 08:51:56 AM
Giving Perking for Green was not a good move in my opinion. Cs lost a big guy, and this problem is still very evident now.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Moranis on March 19, 2013, 09:46:54 AM
green's defense is elite, and now he shows he can be an elite force on offense.
one game does not an elite force make.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticG1 on March 19, 2013, 09:53:53 AM
Unless you think we would have won the championship with perk in '11 I don't see how you can adamantly still be against this trade. It would at the very least be even.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CoachBo on March 19, 2013, 10:14:14 AM
people want Green to dominate every single night and that's just silly... his per minute numbers are as good as they ever were in OKC.  He's a fantastic player.  Perk is pretty overpaid for what he provides.  It would have been a perfect trade had Shaq stayed healthy or if we had replaced Perk with a serviceable center.

Good post.

Some here will never admit the deal was a heist. We had to wait, but Perkins is a wildly overpaid, underperforming amnesty candidate and Green is clearly, unquestionably on the upswing after recovering from heart surgery.

LOL at Sam Presti. Ainge pantsed him, and now we have a key piece at a reasonable price for the post-Big 3 transition.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: thenotoriousjts on March 19, 2013, 10:19:08 AM
Can we start winning first?
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: bfrombleacher on March 19, 2013, 10:21:03 AM
green's defense is elite, and now he shows he can be an elite force on offense.
one game does not an elite force make.

His D has been very good all along, though.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: action781 on March 19, 2013, 11:09:06 AM
If Ainge could have traded Perk for Green in the off-season instead of waiting until Perkins was healthy, perhaps Green would have gotten up to speed by the end of the season to where he is now and replaced Glen Davis in the crunch time lineup.  Where would the Celtics be then?

Wasn't Perk a free agent that offseason though?  And that's why Danny wanted to trade him before the deadline that way he could get something in return for Perkins who Danny was likely to let go b/c he was unwilling to give Perk the $ he wanted.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Kane3387 on March 19, 2013, 11:24:46 AM
If Ainge could have traded Perk for Green in the off-season instead of waiting until Perkins was healthy, perhaps Green would have gotten up to speed by the end of the season to where he is now and replaced Glen Davis in the crunch time lineup.  Where would the Celtics be then?

Wasn't Perk a free agent that offseason though?  And that's why Danny wanted to trade him before the deadline that way he could get something in return for Perkins who Danny was likely to let go b/c he was unwilling to give Perk the $ he wanted.

It was a great and logical trade at the time that just happened to have some bad luck come along, along the way.

Presti wouldn't have traded Green in a S + T with Boston. OKC still ad some cap room, but even if he did do Green in a S + T... ... no way you dump Nate for Krstic and get the Clipper's pick (which before CP3 was acquired there looked like a potential lottery pick in the 11-14 range for us).

One thing I would love to see from ESPN or somewhere else is a stat on how many guys have scored 40+ points while defending Lebron for a lot of the game.

Only players that come to mind are Carmelo and Durant. Kobe might have done it too over the last three years. Pierce clearly did in 2008 but James wasn't as good back then.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on March 20, 2013, 10:33:19 AM
We have been no worse than 3rd in defensive rating post-Perkins trade.

What have consistently been one of the worst teams in the NBA on offense since (and before) the Perkins trade.

So what do Perkins is going to do?  Make our offense better?  No.  He'll marginally improve an already dominant defense and make our offense all-time bad.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: kozlodoev on March 20, 2013, 11:29:43 AM
If Ainge could have traded Perk for Green in the off-season instead of waiting until Perkins was healthy, perhaps Green would have gotten up to speed by the end of the season to where he is now and replaced Glen Davis in the crunch time lineup.  Where would the Celtics be then?

Wasn't Perk a free agent that offseason though?  And that's why Danny wanted to trade him before the deadline that way he could get something in return for Perkins who Danny was likely to let go b/c he was unwilling to give Perk the $ he wanted.
Jeff Green was also a free agent in the off-season.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on March 20, 2013, 12:24:34 PM
If Ainge could have traded Perk for Green in the off-season instead of waiting until Perkins was healthy, perhaps Green would have gotten up to speed by the end of the season to where he is now and replaced Glen Davis in the crunch time lineup.  Where would the Celtics be then?

Wasn't Perk a free agent that offseason though?  And that's why Danny wanted to trade him before the deadline that way he could get something in return for Perkins who Danny was likely to let go b/c he was unwilling to give Perk the $ he wanted.
Jeff Green was also a free agent in the off-season.

A restricted free-agent, it makes a difference.

I think Danny had no problem letting either of them go, but he had a better opportunity with Green to use cap space appropriately, and have other options if needed be, plus Green is simply a better player and prospect... plus he got a draft pick out of it.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: LB3533 on March 20, 2013, 01:25:55 PM
I love Perk and am extremely proud of his growth/development and his career.

But it's looking more and more like Nate Robinson is a better and more valuable player than Perk....and that's a shame.

We won that trade at the time an we are just blowing it out of the water right now.

If Fab Melo turns out to be a serviceable big man....a la Tony Battie......the trade is a slam dunk and then some.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: ederson on March 20, 2013, 02:23:51 PM
It was a bad and a good trade at the same time. I can`t blame nor congratulate DA.

Imho the trade killed a lot of C`s chances for the title that year
But it was for Boston`s best interest to trade Perk.

it depends on how you weight things. i personaly would gable by keeping Perk but it was not completely irrational move to trade him
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Eja117 on March 31, 2013, 09:45:14 PM
 It always amazes me when DA is willing to trade away legit or semi legit shots at a ring for fools gold down the line. Like hey that's great that Jeff Green occasionally looks good two years after you traded Perk for him. Whoop de doo.

Fab Melo.  Rookie year fail. Needed an instant impact guy. Got a project. That would be great if he turns out good....right when we don't need him.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tenn_smoothie on March 31, 2013, 10:33:56 PM
Yes - credit for tossing away a likely title (2011) and for struggling ever since without a center - who we have been desperately searching for since Perk was traded.

let me count the failed replacements ....... Shaq, Jermaine, Kirstic, Stiemsma, Collins, Williams, Hollins, Wilcox, Erden, Johnson, Melo. i'm sure I missed a couple, but the point is made.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BballTim on March 31, 2013, 10:38:05 PM
It always amazes me when DA is willing to trade away legit or semi legit shots at a ring for fools gold down the line. Like hey that's great that Jeff Green occasionally looks good two years after you traded Perk for him. Whoop de doo.

Fab Melo.  Rookie year fail. Needed an instant impact guy. Got a project. That would be great if he turns out good....right when we don't need him.

  I doubt it's true we won't have need for a good center when Melo's older. And getting instant impact centers when you're picking in the 20s is a bit harder than you think.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tonyto3690 on March 31, 2013, 10:41:10 PM
It always amazes me when DA is willing to trade away legit or semi legit shots at a ring for fools gold down the line. Like hey that's great that Jeff Green occasionally looks good two years after you traded Perk for him. Whoop de doo.

Fab Melo.  Rookie year fail. Needed an instant impact guy. Got a project. That would be great if he turns out good....right when we don't need him.

We've gone over this a million times.

The problems with that team that year and since then:
-Bench scoring
-A guy who could guard Lebron besides Pierce

Things that were NOT a problem:
-Post defense
-Interior defense

Our team has had a TOP THREE DEFENSE EVERY YEAR POST PERKINS.
Our team has had A BOTTOM THREE BENCH SCORING UNIT THE LAST TWO YEARS (Greens first year and year without Green).


What we are seeing this year is what Ainge expected out of Jeff.  If Jeff had adjusted quicker then we likely win that year.  What happened was everything possible went wrong.  Everything that could possibly not go right, went exactly as we hoped it wouldn't.

The fact that Perkins ceiling is "mediocre role player" while Greens is "star player" is just gravy.


EDIT:
It just boggles the mind how people think our top 2 defense that year (post Perkins) with our bottom 10 offense was "giving away a sure thing" because we lost Perkins.  PERKINS IS A MASSIVE OFFENSIVE LIABILITY.   OUR DEFENSE WAS GREAT, NOT GOOD, FREAKING GREAT WITHOUT HIM.

You people are so mind boggingly stupid.  I don't understand how anyone can not understand. 
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticsFan9 on March 31, 2013, 10:43:17 PM
It always amazes me when DA is willing to trade away legit or semi legit shots at a ring for fools gold down the line. Like hey that's great that Jeff Green occasionally looks good two years after you traded Perk for him. Whoop de doo.

Fab Melo.  Rookie year fail. Needed an instant impact guy. Got a project. That would be great if he turns out good....right when we don't need him.

  I doubt it's true we won't have need for a good center when Melo's older. And getting instant impact centers when you're picking in the 20s is a bit harder than you think.

In hindsight, had we picked Festus Ezeli (who went 30th), that would've been a perfect draft for Ainge.  He been fantastic for GS when Bogut's been out (pretty much all year).
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Celtics18 on March 31, 2013, 10:45:56 PM
Yes - credit for tossing away a likely title (2011) and for struggling ever since without a center - who we have been desperately searching for since Perk was traded.

let me count the failed replacements ....... Shaq, Jermaine, Kirstic, Stiemsma, Collins, Williams, Hollins, Wilcox, Erden, Johnson, Melo. i'm sure I missed a couple, but the point is made.

You forgot Garnett.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: T-LoDaniels on March 31, 2013, 10:46:57 PM
Yes - credit for tossing away a likely title (2011) and for struggling ever since without a center - who we have been desperately searching for since Perk was traded.

let me count the failed replacements ....... Shaq, Jermaine, Kirstic, Stiemsma, Collins, Williams, Hollins, Wilcox, Erden, Johnson, Melo. i'm sure I missed a couple, but the point is made.

A likely title? You do remember that Perk was coming back from a long-term injury and was REALLY bad for the Thunder in the playoffs that year? The guy could hardly move. A hurt Perkins wouldn't have made us any better
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: lightspeed5 on March 31, 2013, 11:11:37 PM
Yes - credit for tossing away a likely title (2011) and for struggling ever since without a center - who we have been desperately searching for since Perk was traded.

let me count the failed replacements ....... Shaq, Jermaine, Kirstic, Stiemsma, Collins, Williams, Hollins, Wilcox, Erden, Johnson, Melo. i'm sure I missed a couple, but the point is made.
failed replacements? Stiemsma was awesome, and when shaq played with rondo and the big, we were something like 38-10. It was one of the best starting 5 of all time.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: tenn_smoothie on March 31, 2013, 11:36:45 PM
Yes - credit for tossing away a likely title (2011) and for struggling ever since without a center - who we have been desperately searching for since Perk was traded.

let me count the failed replacements ....... Shaq, Jermaine, Kirstic, Stiemsma, Collins, Williams, Hollins, Wilcox, Erden, Johnson, Melo. i'm sure I missed a couple, but the point is made.

You forgot Garnett.

you just made my point for me - we are so desperate for a center that we've had to move our HOF PF over to play center as a stop-gap measure. this of course has put us at a decided disadvantage at the power forward position because we are woefully undersized and underpowered - how many times do we watch Green and Bass get moved out of rebounding position because they are matched against a bigger, stronger true power forward ?

T-Lo, yes, Perk was returning from an injury, but he was getting stronger and would have been a huge upgrade over Shaq (who could barely move) and Jermaine, who was almost as bad. Perk would have been a huge asset back in his rightful place in our defense, which would have then been back in sync, playing on one extended string, each player knowing the rotations were going to right. plus, Jeff Green, was an unmitigated disaster in those playoffs.

also, without the trade, we probably end up as the #1 seed in the East, which adds even more advantages towards a title run.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: jdz101 on April 01, 2013, 01:52:36 AM
Yes - credit for tossing away a likely title (2011) and for struggling ever since without a center - who we have been desperately searching for since Perk was traded.

let me count the failed replacements ....... Shaq, Jermaine, Kirstic, Stiemsma, Collins, Williams, Hollins, Wilcox, Erden, Johnson, Melo. i'm sure I missed a couple, but the point is made.

You forgot Garnett.

you just made my point for me - we are so desperate for a center that we've had to move our HOF PF over to play center as a stop-gap measure. this of course has put us at a decided disadvantage at the power forward position because we are woefully undersized and underpowered - how many times do we watch Green and Bass get moved out of rebounding position because they are matched against a bigger, stronger true power forward ?

T-Lo, yes, Perk was returning from an injury, but he was getting stronger and would have been a huge upgrade over Shaq (who could barely move) and Jermaine, who was almost as bad. Perk would have been a huge asset back in his rightful place in our defense, which would have then been back in sync, playing on one extended string, each player knowing the rotations were going to right. plus, Jeff Green, was an unmitigated disaster in those playoffs.

also, without the trade, we probably end up as the #1 seed in the East, which adds even more advantages towards a title run.

You're conveniently forgetting that Perkins is horrible right now, and the team was playing like their old fatigued self when he came back from injury before the trade. They were actually losing the majority of games if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Celtics4ever on April 01, 2013, 04:48:58 AM
It's all Rondo's fault!   Seriously, we won out on the Perk trade.  We traded a badly damaged center for a guy who ended up being a heart patient but the heart patient guy recovered.   We won out on the deal.

Perk was not that good.  He was servicable and ate up space and we all loved his heart and attitude.   But when he left here he was shadow of his self.  I do not think he was an upgrade over Shaq when Shaq was healthy.  Perk can barely move now.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on April 01, 2013, 09:43:38 AM

You're conveniently forgetting that Perkins is horrible right now, and the team was playing like their old fatigued self when he came back from injury before the trade. They were actually losing the majority of games if I remember correctly.

You're misremembering.  The Celts were 8-4 with Perk.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BballTim on April 01, 2013, 09:58:52 AM
It's all Rondo's fault!   Seriously, we won out on the Perk trade.  We traded a badly damaged center for a guy who ended up being a heart patient but the heart patient guy recovered.   We won out on the deal.

  Speaking of Rondo, his health issues (especially his elbow) would have prevented us from winning the title even with Perk. It's similar to the year-long argument about whether Danny ruined our chances to repeat by letting Posey walk, which was rendered moot by KG's knee. The difference is that debate pretty much ended with that season while this one doesn't seem to have an expiration date.

 
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: Roy H. on April 01, 2013, 10:03:45 AM
It's all Rondo's fault!   Seriously, we won out on the Perk trade.  We traded a badly damaged center for a guy who ended up being a heart patient but the heart patient guy recovered.   We won out on the deal.

  Speaking of Rondo, his health issues (especially his elbow) would have prevented us from winning the title even with Perk. It's similar to the year-long argument about whether Danny ruined our chances to repeat by letting Posey walk, which was rendered moot by KG's knee. The difference is that debate pretty much ended with that season while this one doesn't seem to have an expiration date.

What are that Rondo's elbow gets injured if Perk gets traded?  With Perk in there, the team would have had different personnel, running different sets, possibly playing on a different day or in a different arena.  In this alternate universe, I doubt that Wade and Rondo ever get tangled up.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: BballTim on April 01, 2013, 10:14:09 AM
It's all Rondo's fault!   Seriously, we won out on the Perk trade.  We traded a badly damaged center for a guy who ended up being a heart patient but the heart patient guy recovered.   We won out on the deal.

  Speaking of Rondo, his health issues (especially his elbow) would have prevented us from winning the title even with Perk. It's similar to the year-long argument about whether Danny ruined our chances to repeat by letting Posey walk, which was rendered moot by KG's knee. The difference is that debate pretty much ended with that season while this one doesn't seem to have an expiration date.

What are that Rondo's elbow gets injured if Perk gets traded?  With Perk in there, the team would have had different personnel, running different sets, possibly playing on a different day or in a different arena.  In this alternate universe, I doubt that Wade and Rondo ever get tangled up.

  Possibly, although I still think that was a deliberate play by Wade and not really a freak accident. But Rondo was plagued by injuries for most of that season and wasn't overly healthy in the playoffs that year. He wasn't quite the same player who vanquished the Cavs the year before or took the Heat to 7 games the year after.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: CelticsFan9 on April 01, 2013, 10:22:35 AM
It's all Rondo's fault!   Seriously, we won out on the Perk trade.  We traded a badly damaged center for a guy who ended up being a heart patient but the heart patient guy recovered.   We won out on the deal.

  Speaking of Rondo, his health issues (especially his elbow) would have prevented us from winning the title even with Perk. It's similar to the year-long argument about whether Danny ruined our chances to repeat by letting Posey walk, which was rendered moot by KG's knee. The difference is that debate pretty much ended with that season while this one doesn't seem to have an expiration date.

What are that Rondo's elbow gets injured if Perk gets traded?  With Perk in there, the team would have had different personnel, running different sets, possibly playing on a different day or in a different arena.  In this alternate universe, I doubt that Wade and Rondo ever get tangled up.

  Possibly, although I still think that was a deliberate play by Wade and not really a freak accident. But Rondo was plagued by injuries for most of that season and wasn't overly healthy in the playoffs that year. He wasn't quite the same player who vanquished the Cavs the year before or took the Heat to 7 games the year after.

Eh, I don't know.  Rondo absolutely eviscerated the Knicks in the first round, practically destroying them by himself, allowing Ray and Paul to kill the NY from the outside.

He was due to have a big series against Miami, if not for Wade's dirty play.
Title: Re: Can we finally give credit to Ainge for the Perkins trade?
Post by: kgainez on April 01, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
didn't wade's dirty play happen in game 3 or am I wrong?

I feel like it was game 3 and at that point we were already down in the series?