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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Eddie20 on February 07, 2013, 03:09:00 PM

Title: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: Eddie20 on February 07, 2013, 03:09:00 PM
I realize there are a lot of Rondo posts, but I thought it was worthy enough to get it's own thread. I think regardless of whether you like Rondo or not, most people would agree with a large portion of the scout's breakdown....Except for BballTim who will defend Rondo with passionate conviction and will likely be responding dismissively to this in 3...2...1...
 ;)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20130207/chris-paul-los-angeles-clippers/index.html

Ian Thomsen Si.com

Quote
Los Angeles Lakers at Boston Celtics, Thursday 8 p.m. ET. An NBA advance scout breaks down the two teams that make up the league's greatest rivalry -- though this game may carry less meaning for both teams than was predicted before the season. Boston, eighth in the East, has won five consecutive games since losing Rajon Rondo to a season-ending knee injury, while Los Angeles has won six of seven and trails Houston by three games for the No. 8 seed in the West.

"Ever since they lost Rajon Rondo for the year, the Celtics have been winning with smoke and mirrors," the scout said. "Eventually that's going to end. I wouldn't be surprised if they make the playoffs -- or if somebody overtakes them for the eighth spot in the East. But if they do make the playoffs, I will be very surprised if they get to the second round. Losing both Rondo and Jared Sullinger is really tough for them.

"I can see why they've had some success without Rondo. I just think Rondo had such a bad effect on Jason Terry and Courtney Lee and the newer guys, that after he went out they were all going to play better.

"Rondo is just so ball dominant. Think about how Terry played in Dallas -- they had given him the keys to drive the bus. But when he came to Boston, he was never himself. While he was playing with Rondo, Terry was not getting the shots he needs to take in order to be successful because the one guy -- Rondo -- was dominating the ball, and the other thing was that they wanted to play in the halfcourt a lot. Rondo is a dominant personality and he didn't want to give the ball up to him [Terry]. If they were on the break, Rondo wanted to dribble up to get the assist. You could see Terry was becoming less confident to the point that he didn't want to take his normal shots even when he was up the floor.

"When Rondo had a chance to make the first pass to help get the ball to the other side of the court, he was not going to make that pass because he wanted to get the assist. Rondo would pound the ball until he could get a guy open for the shot so that he could get the assist. That's why the ball wasn't moving as much when they had Rondo, and it's why the ball is moving so much better now that he's out. The reason they're running more is because he didn't kick the ball ahead. He wanted to hold on to it.

"I think it's going to be a good thing for Rondo if he sees them playing well without him. But I also don't think they would be better if they moved him [in a trade]. He's a hard guy to get rid of -- he's probably going to come back to haunt you because he's so good. But they've got to let him know that he's not the boss. Other teams knew that you should not help on Rondo [with a double team] because he just wants to get the assist. He was trying so hard to get assists that it was bad on everybody with their team.

"Paul Pierce is the key to the team, but I felt that way even before Rondo got hurt. Pierce is not the same guy he was, but he's still better than most everybody in the league. He makes threes, he can post up. Maybe he's not as good at beating guys off the dribble, but he's still got that pump-fake stuff that he can use to get fouled or to get his shot off. I think he's still one of the best one-on-one players in the league, and by creating for himself he's also able to create for his teammates.

"I still think they could have gotten better this year with Rondo, because Doc Rivers is good at getting his point across and allowing things to happen until he can finally get his guys' attention. If they continue to play well, then this will help Doc with Rondo any way you slice it. But they're definitely not a contender as long as they have to give a lot of minutes to Courtney Lee. The only way they get to the second round now is if Pierce and Kevin Garnett are incredible.

Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: Galeto on February 07, 2013, 03:36:45 PM
This scout knows his stuff but then again, how hard it is to see that Rondo dribbles too much and marginalizes too many players to play for assists?  Not too hard.  I don't understand why Doc couldn't see it or maybe he did see it since there were always reports about the Celtics working on better ball movement and advancing the ball with the pass in practices--except none it showed up in games. 
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: Atzar on February 07, 2013, 03:45:37 PM
Agree with everything the guy said, especially the part about Rondo getting the point if the team plays well without him.  He's stubborn, but not stupid.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: Chris on February 07, 2013, 03:47:00 PM
By "scout" does Ian Thompson mean "half the NBA bloggers on the internet"?
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: LooseCannon on February 07, 2013, 03:51:04 PM
People may focus on the Rondo stuff, but I wonder how many agree with this line: " But they're definitely not a contender as long as they have to give a lot of minutes to Courtney Lee."
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: Galeto on February 07, 2013, 04:27:28 PM
People may focus on the Rondo stuff, but I wonder how many agree with this line: " But they're definitely not a contender as long as they have to give a lot of minutes to Courtney Lee."

I guess the scout isn't a fan of Courtney Lee.  I'm not sure where he's coming from with this quote.  If Lee was playing 35 minutes a game in the role of a key playmaker/scorer, I'd agree but fortunately, he's not.  He's still a role player but one who has really upped his game on both ends of the floor now that he's no longer just being used as a spot-up shooter (something which started before Rondo went down).
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: snively on February 07, 2013, 04:35:33 PM
That's a pretty big stretch from that scout.  I think Rondo's ball-dominance had much more to do with our offensive sets than some all-consuming obsession with assists.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 07, 2013, 04:40:07 PM
I'm curious... is there anyone on this forum who has had their perception of Rondo drastically change because of the last 5 games?  I think there has always been a bunch of fans who wanted to believe Rondo was the greatest point guard in the league... and then there are people like myself who have continued to say he was overrated and at most a top 5 point guard. 

Has anyone changed their opinion ?  I'd like to hear from one of the folks who believes ROndo is better than Chris Paul.  Do you still believe that?
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: rickyfan3.0... on February 07, 2013, 04:41:02 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if assists wasn't a stat, Rondo would be a better player. He's too stat driven.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: mgent on February 07, 2013, 04:42:16 PM
That's ridiculous, Terry hasn't handled the ball a whole lot more than he was with Rondo out.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: Galeto on February 07, 2013, 04:46:31 PM
That's a pretty big stretch from that scout.  I think Rondo's ball-dominance had much more to do with our offensive sets than some all-consuming obsession with assists.

They're running mostly the same offensive sets: a metric ton of high pick and rolls mixed in with post-ups to KG, a smattering of isos for Pierce and the set where Pierce comes a screen on the left side of the court and catches the ball beyond the three point line (they went to that line a bunch to close the game last night).  There's no reason the Celtics couldn't have had more ball movement with Rondo in the lineup.   
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: Galeto on February 07, 2013, 04:49:10 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if assists wasn't a stat, Rondo would be a better player. He's too stat driven.

Oh definitely.  If the NBA counted hockey assists, Rondo would play differently and the Celtics would be better off for it.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: ManUp on February 07, 2013, 04:54:53 PM
I agree with this scout.

Rondo was hurting the team, but we're definitely not better off without him. I definitely feel that Rondo seeing the team succeed without him will help  the team moving forward. Hopefully he learns to stop hunting for the assists so hard and move the ball in transition.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: droopdog7 on February 07, 2013, 05:53:15 PM
I know a lot of us love the players as much as the laundry.  Growing up, they were like heroes.  But it seems to me, if we are getting good value in return, there is little question that we could be a better team by trading Rondo.  If said this all along.  It's not just whether we are actually better without Rondo, but are we better without Rondo (plus what he can bring in a trade).
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: ChainSmokingLikeDino on February 07, 2013, 06:27:51 PM
Seems a little odd to be bashing Rondo for being ball dominant when the guy you are talking about it effecting is equally ball dominant AND wasn't supposed to be playing alongside him in the ideal picture anyways. If you want to say Rondo needs the ball in his hands, well, Terry needs it just as much, if not more, and the plan was got him to be a backup and not get as much burn with Rondo anyways (Bradley being the off the ball backcourt mate, which sure makes a lot of sense).

And, yes, I would much rather have Rondo than Terry. Jeez.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 07, 2013, 06:37:36 PM
I'm curious... is there anyone on this forum who has had their perception of Rondo drastically change because of the last 5 games?  I think there has always been a bunch of fans who wanted to believe Rondo was the greatest point guard in the league... and then there are people like myself who have continued to say he was overrated and at most a top 5 point guard. 

Has anyone changed their opinion ?  I'd like to hear from one of the folks who believes ROndo is better than Chris Paul.  Do you still believe that?

I've never thought rondo was better than chris paul. Always thought he was a bit overrated.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 07, 2013, 06:47:00 PM
Pretty much what many of us have already said.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: RJ87 on February 07, 2013, 07:07:03 PM
Seems a little odd to be bashing Rondo for being ball dominant when the guy you are talking about it effecting is equally ball dominant AND wasn't supposed to be playing alongside him in the ideal picture anyways. If you want to say Rondo needs the ball in his hands, well, Terry needs it just as much, if not more, and the plan was got him to be a backup and not get as much burn with Rondo anyways (Bradley being the off the ball backcourt mate, which sure makes a lot of sense).

And, yes, I would much rather have Rondo than Terry. Jeez.

Agreed. When #20 was here, he was great at playing off the ball and the combo worked great. Even after AB took the starting job, his ability to cut really opened up the offense and again, the combo worked great.

The issue is that we tried to shoehorn JET into #20's old role - running off screens, catch-and-shoots - and that's never been the strength in his game. JET is more of a "give him the ball, let him run pick & roll" type of player. They're styles don't mesh right away, that's something I think Doc should've done a better job of prepping for the offseason - how can Rondo and Jason be effective playing with each other?

Everyone saying we're better off without Rondo are wrong. Point blank. I know, we've won 5 in a row. We also won 6 in a row with him in the lineup starting next to AB, and then promptly lost 6 in a row. So basically, what we know now is what we always knew: this group can win games, but whether or not they continue on a consistent basis is still undetermined.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: ssspence on February 07, 2013, 07:11:32 PM
Zach Lowe's article on Rondo today takes a statistical look at how much ball pounding he did this year. It backs up this scout's POV.

Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 07, 2013, 07:31:04 PM
We will see now what kind of team we are after this back to back game.   Will the old guys be exposed, right now the schedule has been nice for the old guys.   The Lakers are a back to back too.   We should win easily folks tonight.

Easy and manly to hate on a guy when he is hurt, I suppose.

I wonder if the anti Rondo crowd thinks we get past CLE in 08 w/o Rondo.   I don't think so.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: KGs Knee on February 07, 2013, 07:38:42 PM
As far as I'm concerned, talk to me when the playoffs are over.

Until then, NOTHING, is proven.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on February 07, 2013, 07:59:22 PM
As far as I'm concerned, talk to me when the playoffs are over.

Until then, NOTHING, is proven.

I am extremely tired of the Rondo chatter myself, I think we would be better with him no doubt about it (in the playoffs b/c of half court play)....

with that said, you can not say we have to wait to the playoffs to judge whether we are better with/without him b/c THIS TEAM did not experience the playoffs with RR. Last year's team was almost completely different than this season's team! So, just because we made it to the ECF last season and may not this season, does not prove one way or the other if we are better or worse w/o RR (I happen to still believe we will win it all, as crazy as that may seem).

Not only is THIS TEAM different (with or without RR) from last season but most every team in the East is different! So, no matter how this season goes, you cannot compare whether we are better/worse with RR!

Now we can get an idea of regular season b/c we had half the games to see how we were with him and now half games to see without him. Even then it might be difficult b/c this team no matter the players of the past few seasons always played better during the second half of the season, so who knows how we would be with RR.


I can never understand why everyone who is a Celtics fan doesn't WANT the team this season to be better without RR, he is out for the season! While I think we are better with RR I WANT us to be better now that we don't have him, I want us to be good enough (I wanted that w/ or w/o him)! The only people I can understand who don't want us to be better w/o him is his fans (I mean people who are fans of his and by default are "Celtics fans")! Actually, I can't even really understand RR fans b/c when I was a Shaq fan I wanted any team he was on to win no matter what, when Shaq was injured I wanted the team to win just as much as I did when he played... because if the team won he won by default, of course I would love if he wasn't injured and it would mean more but I still wanted the win no matter how it came!! So, RR fans that want us to be worse w/o him and want us to lose just to prove that, you are CRAZY, even RR wants the team to win w/o him (if he truly cares about the guys like I think he does), sure he'd rather it was with him but since he's out I doubt he's wishing they lose b/c he isn't able to play!
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 07, 2013, 08:12:01 PM
Our ball tonight is doo doo, no Rondo either.  Who are you going to blame it on tonight?
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: Eddie20 on February 07, 2013, 09:26:13 PM
Our ball tonight is doo doo, no Rondo either.  Who are you going to blame it on tonight?

Huh? We're on pace for 116 pts.
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: BASS_THUMPER on February 07, 2013, 09:36:44 PM
we will see Miami in the finals
Title: Re: NBA scout talks about Rondo
Post by: lantinm on February 07, 2013, 09:40:24 PM
Personally, I lost respect for this scout when he said we are winning with smoke and mirrors.  We are winning because of defense, ball-movement, and exceptional bench play.  Basketball is not Advanced Calculus -- play D, move the ball on offense and get good shots, run when you can, and come up big in crunch-time.