CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Kane3387 on February 07, 2013, 11:36:20 AM
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I have honestly been back and forth on whether Rondo can be the go to guy on a title team so many times I have lost count.
Stan Van Gundy makes an interesting point.
"To me that's not a negative. I didn't say it as a negative. I think some people took it that way. I just don't see John Wall as a franchise player because - a lot like Rajon Rondo; I don't see him as a franchise player even though he's an All-Star - he's not a good enough shooter yet and he's not a reliable go-to scorer.
He's basically saying that if you can't count on a guy to be able to score at the end of games then is not a "Franchise" guy.
"In the NBA, your franchise guy has got to be a guy you can put the ball in his hands late in the game and he can get you a basket. I don't see that from John Wall at this point in his career. Maybe it will develop, but I don't see it."
http://www.csnwashington.com/basketball-washington-wizards/talk/van-gundy-clarifies-his-critique-wall
Not really sure I agree completely but I see his point. Basically if the Celtics want to contend then they have to have a go to scorer at the end of the games. That's what he is saying. A Paul Pierce.
That doesn't have to be Kevin Durant. A James Harden would work.
Ultimately I believe that Van Gundy is right about the scorer. It comes down to whether you think Rondo can evolve into being a player you can count on at the end of games to get you a basket. I think it's possible and he has shown signs but he isn't there yet.
That being said there are a lot of scorers in this league. I think if the Celtics can get this scorer along side Rondo then we are one or two pieces away from consistent contention after KG and Paul leave. I also think we have more then enough assets to get those couple pieces. It will be getting that crunch time scorer that will be key.
Any thoughts on available scorers out there? Rudy Gay was... Danny Granger has shown he can fill it up. If only we could have landed Harden instead of green in the Perk trade...
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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.
You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.
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It's funny that I initially saw bits and pieces of this article that only referenced John wall not being a franchise player, and I was thinking you could just replace wall's name with Rondo and its still true. Then I see that van gundy made the same analogy. Actually, I think walls skill set allows him to potentially be a franchise player moreso than Rondo' s skill set
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Name sounds familiar...Who does he coach for again?
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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.
You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.
Thought the same thing. I think it's obvious he's not. Now with the back injury and the fact he still has sciatica I don't think he ever will be.
I really hope the Lakers make him their 5 year MAX guy.
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Most franchise players are definitely good to great at scoring but you don't necessarily have to be one to be a franchise player.
Bill Russell?
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Has there even been a point guard who was a franchise guy?
I mean I wouldnt consider Stockton, Nash, or Kidd to be franchise guys and they're living legends at the pg spot.
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I think that SVG is right for the most part about his take on what it takes to be a franchise player. What you want is certain qualities, and then add to that, be a go to player. I think that's more or less right, though there are probably exceptions to that rule that have to do with big men.
Whether Rondo is a franchise player or not is a slightly different discussion.
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I guess SVG doesn't count assists for franchise players, at the end of close games Rondo will either take it to the hoop and either pass it to an open man if double teamed or make a layup.
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Has there even been a point guard who was a franchise guy?
I mean I wouldnt consider Stockton, Nash, or Kidd to be franchise guys and they're living legends at the pg spot.
Oscar and Magic.
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SVG thinking rondo is not a franchise player proves nothing but SVG doesnt think rondo is a franchise player....lots of people think that
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A franchise player is a star player you can build a team around.
I think you can certainly build a team around Rondo, but not in the same way you can with a franchise player.
If Rondo can learn to make the outside jumper with higher consistency, and so far this season he has made that jump in my opinion, Rondo will be deadly in the same mold as a CP3, Deron Williams and Kyrie Irving.
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To clarify, this is what SVG said about Wall, which I presume applies to Rondo, as well:
"I don't think he can be your best player, certainly not clearly your best player. You need one guy better than him or a couple of guys at his talent level for them to win.
So, Van Gundy seems to believe that you can win without that franchise player. I think a reasonable course for the Celtics would be to avoid major moves that don't bring back a player as good as Rondo until they assess how he will play post-injury to see if he can be one of a group of roughly equal players to build around as a group.
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SVG restating the obvious - at least to everyone outside Boston.
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This is old news. Csbloggers may not agree, but NBA GMs do, which is why Ainge hasn't been able to find a good deal for him despite trying wicked haaaahhdddd.
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To clarify, this is what SVG said about Wall, which I presume applies to Rondo, as well:
"I don't think he can be your best player, certainly not clearly your best player. You need one guy better than him or a couple of guys at his talent level for them to win.
So, Van Gundy seems to believe that you can win without that franchise player. I think a reasonable course for the Celtics would be to avoid major moves that don't bring back a player as good as Rondo until they assess how he will play post-injury to see if he can be one of a group of roughly equal players to build around as a group.
Yeah I don't think he said the guy has to be better, but he has to be on that level and one of his attributes has to be that he is a great scorer who you can count on, more likely then not, to score in crunch time.
Again there are players like this who aren't top ten guys.
Monta Ellis comes to mind. Joe Johnson was one. Heck even Jamal Crawford has played this role. Hedo and Rashard both did it well for Orlando in 2009. They don't have to be SuperStars, but rather All Star caliber players who can get you points.
As Doc would say, " A professional scorer ".
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I agree with SVG assessment that Rondo is not a franchise player. I disagree with his reasoning for coming to that conclusion.
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I feel real good about rondo being my second or third best player on the team. Not so much when hes the first or "Go to guy". If i had my way rondo would definitely not be high on my list on guys Id like to build my team around for many reasons.
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This is old news. Csbloggers may not agree, but NBA GMs do, which is why Ainge hasn't been able to find a good deal for him despite trying wicked haaaahhdddd.
I think it is reasonable for Ainge to expect around the same value as he would get dealing another non-franchise but All-Star caliber player like Andre Iguodala or Al Horford if he were trying to trade a healthy Rondo and to not even be tempted by a deal that falls well short of that level.
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Name all the under 30 franchise players. :)
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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.
You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.
He must also think that Magic wasn't a franchise player and that Vinnie Johnson and Andrew Toney were.
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This is the dilemma with a Rondo-centric team. A dilemma that has been discuss ad nauseam of late.
SVG is correct. 100%. His quote is right-on.
Now, onto a fan's quote:
I think if the Celtics can get this scorer along side Rondo...
Herein lies a problem. In late game situations the ball needs to be in the hands of the scorer, not Rondo, and Rondo is ineffective off-the-ball. Rondo is not a good spot-up shooter and he is a horrible 3-pt shooter. He's also below-average at the free throw line, so he can become a liability in numerous ways in certain situations. Instead of spacing the floor, he actually helps the defense shrink it. What fan gets excited to see Rondo dribbling the ball at the 3-pt line as the clock winds down? It's nauseating to watch. Unless he drives and gets clean to the bucket, it's a wasted possession. God forbid he gets fouled and has to hit free throws to win the game.
A franchise player cannot be someone who potentially hurts your team at end-of-game situations, such as Dwight Howard or Rondo (just to name two). Coaches actively keep the ball out of these players' hands. That says something. That says they're not franchise players.
Paul Pierce's turnovers notwithstanding, he IS a franchise player. He's not the caliber of scorer that Bryant, Jordan, or Durant are, but he's the guy with the ball in his hands when the game is on the line. He is the guy who will win or lose you the game. Myself and Doc Rivers are comfortable with this.
I would argue that Boston actually currently has TWO franchise players - The Truth and KG - and each of them bring something different to the table, but together they are the Celtics. [This is partially due to their age. When they were younger, they were each full-time franchise players!]
Rondo can be exhilarating and he will sell tickets, but if anyone ever signs him to a max contract they'll regret it. Ainge knew this early on, which is why Rondo's current "under-market" contract is brilliant.
p.s. Oscar and Magic were franchise players. Stockton and Malone were in the class that Pierce and KG are - they shared franchise player responsibilities. Nash tried to be a franchise player alone (didn't work) and tried to split duties with A'mare (didn't work). Kidd was never a franchise player; he was a solid piece.
p.p.s. I would argue that PG and C are the most unlikely positions for a franchise player. There have been a few PGs - Oscar, Magic, Isiah, and a few Cs (of late) - Hakeem, Shaq, but overall they're positions are limited. A shoot-first scoring PG can alienate his team during the other 47 minutes of the game and a C always needs to be given the ball in the proper position (they can rarely create their own shots).
p.p.p.s. Bill Russell played in a different era, so you cannot use him in a comparison to the modern game.
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Has there even been a point guard who was a franchise guy?
I mean I wouldnt consider Stockton, Nash, or Kidd to be franchise guys and they're living legends at the pg spot.
Oscar and Magic.
beat me to it. might even be able to add Isaiah Thomas to that short list. Best player on those butthead Bad Boy teams in the late 80's (but he did have a pretty solid team with him to get those titles)
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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.
You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.
And he's right. That's precisely what they tried to do in Orlando, and it was a complete train wreck.
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Since when are late game half court sets more important than the rest of the game?
Awful definition of "franchise" player.
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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.
You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.
And he's right. That's precisely what they tried to do in Orlando, and it was a complete train wreck.
Hedo/Jameer/Vince had the ball not Dwight.
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Name all the under 30 franchise players. :)
Irving, Durant, Rose, Antony, Paul, Lillard... to name a few. I'm certain you can argue including Curry and Harden in this category, for example.
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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.
You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.
And he's right. That's precisely what they tried to do in Orlando, and it was a complete train wreck.
There's probably about 25 teams in the league that would love to have gone through the Dwight Howard in Orlando train wreck. Regular playoff births, getting to the finals, getting to the ecf. What a nightmare for them.
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Name all the under 30 franchise players. :)
Irving, Durant, Rose, Antony, Paul, Lillard... to name a few. I'm certain you can argue including Curry and Harden in this category, for example.
My list:
Carmelo
Rose
Irving
Harden
Hibbert
Paul
Lebron
Love
Durant
Aldridge
Cousins
Dwight Howard :-\
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Don't misunderstand my earlier comments to mean that Rondo is worthless. Rondo can be a piece on a contending team, but he will never be the franchise guy on a contending team. If he is a team's franchise guy, their ceiling is a 4th seed and 2nd round exit. [Remember, I don't consider Rondo the Celtics' franchise guy now! I believe Pierce and KG still split that duty!]
As for who is a true franchise player - guys worth max deals who will actually single-handedly make you a championship contender!:
LeBron
Durant
There aren't many. Everyone else comes with a caveat.
Kobe - Can no longer carry a team for an entire season, but was a true franchise player for a decade (and still is, in theory - he IS the Lakers franchise).
Dirk - He's aging out of it, but he was a franchise player in his prime.
Duncan - At this age, he splits duties with Parker. I'm not sure he was in his prime either, as he always had a Robinson or Parker/Manu with him.
Pierce/KG - They split duties, but in their youth they were both franchise players for their respective franchises. Pierce just happened to be on some real crappy teams.
Carmelo - He may be, but he hasn't yet proven anything. Carry the Knicks to the Finals and we'll talk.
Rose - He may be, but he hasn't yet proven anything. Come back healthy and carry the Bulls to the Finals and we'll talk.
Howard - For the reasons I wrote earlier, Howard is not a franchise player.
Wade - Kinda sorta, but relied heavily on Shaq and LeBron to get to the Finals. Injuries probably kept him from being a true franchise player.
Chris Paul - He's close, but he has never gotten a team over the hump, and if he does this season with the Clippers a lot of it will have to do with Griffin. It's tough for PGs to be franchise players.
A lot of guys are paid to be franchise players, but that doesn't mean they are. James Harden? Carry the Rockets to the WCF and we'll talk.
That's it. Can you truthfully think of anyone else? And, don't freakin' say Josh Smith. That guy deserves a max contract just a shade more than I do.
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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.
You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.
And he's right. That's precisely what they tried to do in Orlando, and it was a complete train wreck.
Hedo/Jameer/Vince had the ball not Dwight.
They did -- because Dwight obviously can't dribble it up the floor.
But their idea of half-court set was feeding it to Dwight repeatedly, until it was obvious that his awkward post "moves" weren't getting them anywhere.
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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.
You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.
And he's right. That's precisely what they tried to do in Orlando, and it was a complete train wreck.
Hedo/Jameer/Vince had the ball not Dwight.
They did -- because Dwight obviously can't dribble it up the floor.
But their idea of half-court set was feeding it to Dwight repeatedly, until it was obvious that his awkward post "moves" weren't getting them anywhere.
Sure they did that a fair amount, especially early in the game.
But late it was a lot of P&R and other sets from what I recall.
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A lot of guys are paid to be franchise players, but that doesn't mean they are. James Harden? Carry the Rockets to the WCF and we'll talk.
You understand this is an inherently faulty definition, right? There are only 4 spots in the conference finals. That doesn't mean that there are only 4 franchise players in the NBA.
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SVG restating the obvious - at least to everyone outside Boston.
actually people outside Boston are less critical of Rondo and think he is better then people in Boston....voted all star starter, the biggest name players in the game credit him as the engine and best player on our team, the NBA itself was marketing him, espn even had a rondo commercial and the national media thought we should blow it up because of his injury and the locals think it's addition by subtraction...sorry
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Rondo may not be a franchise player but he's capable of being the second best player on a dynasty. There's a little Pippen in him both in his temperment and his wide skill set.
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Sounds like SVG doesn't think Dwight Howard was a franchise player.
You can't put the ball in Dwight's hands and expect him to carry you either.
And he's right. That's precisely what they tried to do in Orlando, and it was a complete train wreck.
Hedo/Jameer/Vince had the ball not Dwight.
They did -- because Dwight obviously can't dribble it up the floor.
But their idea of half-court set was feeding it to Dwight repeatedly, until it was obvious that his awkward post "moves" weren't getting them anywhere.
Sure they did that a fair amount, especially early in the game.
But late it was a lot of P&R and other sets from what I recall.
I always felt that was mostly a result of the obvious fact that you can't win by feeding Howard the ball all the time. I only never understood why they started every game as if they thought he could have morphed overnight into a Shaq clone.
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This is the dilemma with a Rondo-centric team. A dilemma that has been discuss ad nauseam of late.
SVG is correct. 100%. His quote is right-on.
Now, onto a fan's quote:
I think if the Celtics can get this scorer along side Rondo...
Herein lies a problem. In late game situations the ball needs to be in the hands of the scorer, not Rondo, and Rondo is ineffective off-the-ball. Rondo is not a good spot-up shooter and he is a horrible 3-pt shooter. He's also below-average at the free throw line, so he can become a liability in numerous ways in certain situations. Instead of spacing the floor, he actually helps the defense shrink it. What fan gets excited to see Rondo dribbling the ball at the 3-pt line as the clock winds down? It's nauseating to watch. Unless he drives and gets clean to the bucket, it's a wasted possession. God forbid he gets fouled and has to hit free throws to win the game.
A franchise player cannot be someone who potentially hurts your team at end-of-game situations, such as Dwight Howard or Rondo (just to name two). Coaches actively keep the ball out of these players' hands. That says something. That says they're not franchise players.
The thing is, people can come up with long lists of franchise players. Most of them are unlikely to have as much postseason success as Howard and Rondo, in fact many of them will have less playoff success in their careers as Rondo's had in the last 3-4 years. People like to make lists of players that can be the best player on a contender that don't include Rondo or list a myriad of reasons why he'll never be that guy. That ship's already sailed. Arguing that Rondo will never be capable of doing what he's already done is less compelling than one would imagine.
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rondo is very talented, but i agree he is not a franchise player. A team with him as the 1st or 2nd option is not a championship level team imo. I think having rondo as a 3rd option would be ideal.
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I agree that Rondo is not a franchise player. There are few of those in the NBA today.
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Carmello Anthony
Kobe Bryant
Chris Paul
James Harden
Dwayne Wade
Thats it. Others have potential to be one: Griffin, Westbrook, Love.
Others are either stripped by injuries or age: Howard (when he had his full athleticism, he could carry a team), Dirk, Garnett, Pau Gasol (he was the best low post player in the NBA for 2-3 years), Pierce, Duncan, Kidd, Nash.
this just goes to show how difficult it is to get a franchise player. And without one or even 2, it is extremely hard to win a title.
A person could make a case for Parker, Ray Allen in his prime, Vince Carter in his prime.
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A lot of guys are paid to be franchise players, but that doesn't mean they are. James Harden? Carry the Rockets to the WCF and we'll talk.
You understand this is an inherently faulty definition, right? There are only 4 spots in the conference finals. That doesn't mean that there are only 4 franchise players in the NBA.
If the same 4 teams get to the conference finals every year it means exactly that. How many franchise players can you name that never led a team to the conference finals?
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rondo is very talented, but i agree he is not a franchise player. A team with him as the 1st or 2nd option is not a championship level team imo. I think having rondo as a 3rd option would be ideal.
Yeah definitely, if rondo is your 3rd best player chances are you have a championship team on your hands. 2nd option MAYBE but first? Nah
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I agree with STV, Rondo isn't a great shooter and this is very important in this league. For me Rajon Rondo is a incredible player, fantastic and the best in this league passing the ball, but he is not a closer.
I love Rondo but the words by STV are true.
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rondo is very talented, but i agree he is not a franchise player. A team with him as the 1st or 2nd option is not a championship level team imo. I think having rondo as a 3rd option would be ideal.
A team in the playoffs with two players that are both playing better than Rondo would need to have serious problems aside from those three players to avoid being prohibitive favorites.
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A lot of guys are paid to be franchise players, but that doesn't mean they are. James Harden? Carry the Rockets to the WCF and we'll talk.
You understand this is an inherently faulty definition, right? There are only 4 spots in the conference finals. That doesn't mean that there are only 4 franchise players in the NBA.
A true franchise player is a guy worth a max deal who will actually single-handedly make you a championship contender for a number of years!
They HAVE to be able to carry their team deep into the playoffs multiple times.
They HAVE to be great enough that you can build a multi-year championship contender around them.
They HAVE to be great at more than one thing and good at everything else, and they HAVE to make those around them better.
They HAVE to have proven that they can do all of the above.
You cannot declare a 20-year-old kid on an 15-win team a franchise player - Kyrie. Not yet. He has to prove it.
You cannot declare a 28-year-old player who eight times lost in the first round of the playoffs a franchise player - Carmelo. He has to prove it.
You cannot declare a guy who has never been anything but the third-best player on his team, who is only 50 games into his first opportunity to lead a team, a franchise player - Harden. He has to prove it.
You're being too liberal with the term "franchise player."
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You can't have the sort of bench cobbled together behind teams like KG/PP/RA or Lebron/Wade/Bosh, but I think that a team with a core of Rondo and, to name two good players who are not as good as a healthy Rondo, Joachim Noah and Ryan Anderson, you could have a contender.
If you had an uninjured Rondo/Sullinger and replaced Garnett and Pierce on the current team with Noah, Anderson, and a role-playing 3-and-D backup SF who is a plus defender at two positions, I'd argue that you would have a collection of talent that, at least on paper, would look like a team with a reasonable shot at contention now and in the near-future.