CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: kgfor3 on February 06, 2013, 09:55:55 AM
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With our current win streak Rondo has taking a lot of criticism for the way the offense ran with him in the game. Personally I think this criticism is unfair and in large part has more to do with Doc than Rondo. Rondo just doing what Doc asks of him.
If we continue to have success with this dumb downed offense, I believe when Rondo comes back he can adapt to the new style and make us all the better.
Now lets keep winning.
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Honestly I think a lot of how well the team is doing now is the injury to Rondo has woken some players up earlier.
Without Rondo, players suddenly feel the need to step up their game. Stop cruising waiting for some later date to get serious.
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Honestly I think a lot of how well the team is doing now is the injury to Rondo has woken some players up earlier.
Without Rondo, players suddenly feel the need to step up their game. Stop cruising waiting for some later date to get serious.
Yup that's extremely clear to me...fun and cute time for the rondo haters though. The teams captain has directly said they're playing for rondo
Only problem is they should've been before his injury to.
Doc will need to adapt for rondo to.
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Without Rondo, players suddenly feel the need to step up their game. Stop cruising waiting for some later date to get serious.
agree and disagree
players are more free, have more trust and are ALLOWED to do more.
I keep hearing them say they're FORCED to do more now. I think the only thing they're forced to do now is to rebound. it's not like we didn't know jet, jeff, lb, lee couldn't score in the double digits. they just were rarely given the proper opp
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I'm still worried that our improved "play" is mostly schedule related. We're about to find out with a much tougher stretch especially on the road.
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Rondo doesn't need to adapt.
He just plays his game like always. It's the other guys that haven't been playing up to par until now.
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I really don't see the correlation between Rondo being out, and suddenly players "playing hard" because of his absence.
I'm really having trouble finding a player that is playing harder than previously just because Rondo is out.
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I really don't see the correlation between Rondo being out, and suddenly players "playing hard" because of his absence.
I'm really having trouble finding a player that is playing harder than previously just because Rondo is out.
The Celtics' players were on cruise control for the most part up to that point. They did a similar thing last year.
It took sparks to get them going. We saw one when AB first came back.
We are seeing one now with Rondo going out.
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I really don't see the correlation between Rondo being out, and suddenly players "playing hard" because of his absence.
I'm really having trouble finding a player that is playing harder than previously just because Rondo is out.
The Celtics' players were on cruise control for the most part up to that point. They did a similar thing last year.
It took sparks to get them going. We saw one when AB first came back.
We are seeing one now with Rondo going out.
That's just random generalization, more specifics please. Who exactly is playing harder now? And how does it link to Rondo being out?
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I'm still worried that our improved "play" is mostly schedule related. We're about to find out with a much tougher stretch especially on the road.
Beyond it just being schedule related, it could just be something that we can't sustain.
Our last streak we had great competition but then fell apart.
I'm hoping the defense is consistent and that's the most important thing. If we can force turnovers like we are that will lead to scoring.
A good thing to prove that we should temper expectations a bit is how we blew our lead against the Clippers. Sure we held on to win but it wasn't that much different than the Hawks game.
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With our current win streak Rondo has taking a lot of criticism for the way the offense ran with him in the game. Personally I think this criticism is unfair and in large part has more to do with Doc than Rondo. Rondo just doing what Doc asks of him.
If we continue to have success with this dumb downed offense, I believe when Rondo comes back he can adapt to the new style and make us all the better.
Now lets keep winning.
I think a lot of the criticism has come from people who are talking about how much more successful our offense has been even though it hasn't really been more successful, or talk about how much Rondo slows the game down even though we tend to play at a slower pace without him.
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With our current win streak Rondo has taking a lot of criticism for the way the offense ran with him in the game. Personally I think this criticism is unfair and in large part has more to do with Doc than Rondo. Rondo just doing what Doc asks of him.
If we continue to have success with this dumb downed offense, I believe when Rondo comes back he can adapt to the new style and make us all the better.
Now lets keep winning.
I think a lot of the criticism has come from people who are talking about how much more successful our offense has been even though it hasn't really been more successful, or talk about how much Rondo slows the game down even though we tend to play at a slower pace without him.
Look at Pierce.
He has shot better.
His rebounding has shot up.
KG. Shooting is up. Rebounding is up.
Now this is a small sample size, but it looks like they are not cruising any more. More consistency in effort.
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I really don't see the correlation between Rondo being out, and suddenly players "playing hard" because of his absence.
I'm really having trouble finding a player that is playing harder than previously just because Rondo is out.
The Celtics' players were on cruise control for the most part up to that point. They did a similar thing last year.
It took sparks to get them going. We saw one when AB first came back.
We are seeing one now with Rondo going out.
That's just random generalization, more specifics please. Who exactly is playing harder now? And how does it link to Rondo being out?
For starters someone posted an interview with Terry (to show that the players liked playing without Rondo) in which he talked about how the wings were going to run harder in transition because (paraphrasing) they'd need those points to try and make up for Rondo's absence. I think Lee and Terry have been playing harder (or more focused) but that might be as much from more consistent minutes than anything else.
I'd also say that PP is playing with quite a bit more energy, it seems like a week or two ago he was struggling to get his shots over the front rim. He could have had some nagging injury though.
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With our current win streak Rondo has taking a lot of criticism for the way the offense ran with him in the game. Personally I think this criticism is unfair and in large part has more to do with Doc than Rondo. Rondo just doing what Doc asks of him.
If we continue to have success with this dumb downed offense, I believe when Rondo comes back he can adapt to the new style and make us all the better.
Now lets keep winning.
I think a lot of the criticism has come from people who are talking about how much more successful our offense has been even though it hasn't really been more successful, or talk about how much Rondo slows the game down even though we tend to play at a slower pace without him.
Look at Pierce.
He has shot better.
His rebounding has shot up.
KG. Shooting is up. Rebounding is up.
Now this is a small sample size, but it looks like they are not cruising any more. More consistency in effort.
It's true that players might be shooting better but then our last 3 games have been against two of the worst defenses in the league and a Clippers team that got blown out by the Raps right before they played us and lost to the Wizards right after they played us.
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Rondo doesn't need to adapt.
He just plays his game like always. It's the other guys that haven't been playing up to par until now.
My thoughts exactly. But leave it to Rondo haters to keep pounding on the point about how Rondo made the team worse when he was on the floor.
The guy single handedly wheeled us into wins in most games and has always being the one that seemed to care on most games this season (even last). When he create good looks for guys (who are obviously waiting around in the first place), they still brick most of it.
Now that we have a four game winning streak and a schedule that favored us the most, all of a sudden Rondo being out is the reason.
All of a sudden, people seem to forget we had a six game winning streak WITH Rondo when everyone was playing like they're suppose to be playing
All they did is step up to the plate and stop being in a cruise mode. I will let these fans keep believing it though. Reality hasn't hit yet...
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The guy single handedly wheeled us into wins in most games and has always being the one that seemed to care on most games this season (even last). When he creates good looks for guys (who are obviously waiting around in the first place), they still brick most of it.
Overstatement of the year (also, you probably meant 'willed'?).
Also, maybe guys wouldn't be standing around if Rondo wasn't dribbling for half of the shot clock at the top of the key.
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The guy single handedly wheeled us into wins in most games and has always being the one that seemed to care on most games this season (even last). When he creates good looks for guys (who are obviously waiting around in the first place), they still brick most of it.
Overstatement of the year (also, you probably meant 'willed'?).
Also, maybe guys wouldn't be standing around if Rondo wasn't dribbling for half of the shot clock at the top of the key.
Actually I think he meant wielded.
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The guy single handedly wheeled us into wins in most games and has always being the one that seemed to care on most games this season (even last). When he creates good looks for guys (who are obviously waiting around in the first place), they still brick most of it.
Overstatement of the year (also, you probably meant 'willed'?).
Also, maybe guys wouldn't be standing around if Rondo wasn't dribbling for half of the shot clock at the top of the key.
Actually I think he meant wielded.
No, he didn't.
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The guy single handedly wheeled us into wins in most games and has always being the one that seemed to care on most games this season (even last). When he creates good looks for guys (who are obviously waiting around in the first place), they still brick most of it.
Overstatement of the year (also, you probably meant 'willed'?).
Also, maybe guys wouldn't be standing around if Rondo wasn't dribbling for half of the shot clock at the top of the key.
Actually I think he meant wielded.
No, he didn't.
Yes, he did.
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The guy single handedly wheeled us into wins in most games and has always being the one that seemed to care on most games this season (even last). When he creates good looks for guys (who are obviously waiting around in the first place), they still brick most of it.
Overstatement of the year (also, you probably meant 'willed'?).
Also, maybe guys wouldn't be standing around if Rondo wasn't dribbling for half of the shot clock at the top of the key.
Actually I think he meant wielded.
No, he didn't.
Yes, he did.
No, no, no!
Rondo actually rolled his teammates to wins.
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The guy single handedly wheeled us into wins in most games and has always being the one that seemed to care on most games this season (even last). When he creates good looks for guys (who are obviously waiting around in the first place), they still brick most of it.
Overstatement of the year (also, you probably meant 'willed'?).
Also, maybe guys wouldn't be standing around if Rondo wasn't dribbling for half of the shot clock at the top of the key.
Actually I think he meant wielded.
No, he didn't.
Yes, he did.
No, no, no!
Rondo actually rolled his teammates to wins.
No, no, no!
He welded them. So that they can stand still. While he dribbles.
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The guy single handedly wheeled us into wins in most games and has always being the one that seemed to care on most games this season (even last). When he creates good looks for guys (who are obviously waiting around in the first place), they still brick most of it.
Overstatement of the year (also, you probably meant 'willed'?).
Also, maybe guys wouldn't be standing around if Rondo wasn't dribbling for half of the shot clock at the top of the key.
Actually I think he meant wielded.
No, he didn't.
Yes, he did.
No, no, no!
Rondo actually rolled his teammates to wins.
No, no, no!
He welded them. So that they can stand still. While he dribbles.
He welded them into a large wheel so he can roll them?
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The difference that Rondo needs to adapt to is moving the ball quickly in order to create lanes to get open shots.
Before he got injured a lot of the time he just stood there waiting for someone to get open for a high percentage shot. Then if it wasn't there he would take a jumper. Next year they will want him to move the offense but if he doesn't see an opening he needs to either 1. attack or 2. move the ball.
I wouldn't say players are playing harder just that they know, they have freedom to attack on every possession rather than being bogged down by running the play until Rondo gets an easy assist.
I'm a huge Rondo fan but too often he would decide that he isn't going to attack the bucket in a game. This leads to a lot of him waiting at the elbow for something to develop so he can get an assist. Next year him moving the ball immediately when he doesn't feel like attacking will pay large dividends.
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He welded them into a large wheel so he can roll them?
Ding-ding-ding, we have a winner.
Thanks for playing... y'all.
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Rondo doesn't need to adapt.
He just plays his game like always. It's the other guys that haven't been playing up to par until now.
Yes, this is the point that people are seeing. Rondo's detractors are smugly claiming that the Celts, with their increase effort and improved ball movement, have been able to maintain our spot in the mid-20s on offense. The bigger picture is that when the other players move around (and hit their shots) when Rondo's playing and running the offense we're a top 10 offensive team.
Imagine if KG had been injured early last year when we were 20th or so on defense. It's possible that, with the team rounding into shape and Bradley and Steamer playing more that we could have still been a bottom 10 defense without KG. I wonder how many claims there would have been that they had proof that we don't need KG on defense anymore.
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I wrote a bunch on this - with a couple of screen shots of how the offense is running now on my blog http://planetfun.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/understanding-the-celtics-without-9/ (http://planetfun.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/understanding-the-celtics-without-9/).
My ultimate conclusion - The Celtics aren't better without Rondo by any means, but they're running much better offensive sets now. Before the offense was very Rondo centric, I think partially to hide his deficiencies as a shooter. Now we're running an offense that truly utilizes Kevin Garnett as the offensive weapon he is.
And there's no doubt in my mind that Rondo could adapt to these.
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I wrote a bunch on this - with a couple of screen shots of how the offense is running now on my blog http://planetfun.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/understanding-the-celtics-without-9/ (http://planetfun.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/understanding-the-celtics-without-9/).
My ultimate conclusion - The Celtics aren't better without Rondo by any means, but they're running much better offensive sets now. Before the offense was very Rondo centric, I think partially to hide his deficiencies as a shooter. Now we're running an offense that truly utilizes Kevin Garnett as the offensive weapon he is.
And there's no doubt in my mind that Rondo could adapt to these.
I'm guessing you didn't get any of the challenged jumpers that just beat the shot clock in your analysis.
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I wrote a bunch on this - with a couple of screen shots of how the offense is running now on my blog http://planetfun.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/understanding-the-celtics-without-9/ (http://planetfun.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/understanding-the-celtics-without-9/).
My ultimate conclusion - The Celtics aren't better without Rondo by any means, but they're running much better offensive sets now. Before the offense was very Rondo centric, I think partially to hide his deficiencies as a shooter. Now we're running an offense that truly utilizes Kevin Garnett as the offensive weapon he is.
And there's no doubt in my mind that Rondo could adapt to these.
I'm guessing you didn't get any of the challenged jumpers that just beat the shot clock in your analysis.
Not sure if you're referring to challenged jumpers with or without Rondo, but - per usual - I appreciate your tone and overall demeanor, BBallTim! Keep shining! Keep smiling!
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It's all good as long as we are winning. We have only played two good teams without Rondo and minimal road trips (where our age is exposed, right now the schedule has been beneficial to us).
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I'm still worried that our improved "play" is mostly schedule related. We're about to find out with a much tougher stretch especially on the road.
This is how I feel, too.
I do think there's something to the team's improved offensive balance since Rondo has gone out, but I think that speaks more to the trouble that the newer role players on the team have had adjusting to the system we ran with Rondo. It doesn't mean Rondo inherently is bad for the team or that we're better in the long run without him.
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Also, maybe guys wouldn't be standing around if Rondo wasn't dribbling for half of the shot clock at the top of the key.
You know, I've asked this before of you, and of others.
Can you actually provide ANY evidence that Rondo eats up more of the shot clock than any other player? Or that our team is paying at a faster pace, now?
Just because you say that something happens, doesn't mean it does. There is a reason the "eye test" is unreliable. Seriously: either show the numbers that prove our pace is faster without Rondo, or stop parroting unsubstantiated claims.
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I'll interested to see if the Celtics can win this away game tonight without Rondo and Sully. Good luck to us.
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Can you actually provide ANY evidence that Rondo eats up more of the shot clock than any other player? Or that our team is paying at a faster pace, now?
You can't provide evidence that he "eats up" shot clock, because for it to be non-anecdotal, someone has to actually track down what we do during a shot clock. A 20-second possession in which we passed the ball around 5 times is fundamentally different than a 20-second possession where Rondo dribbled around for 12 seconds waiting for something to happen. To my knowledge, no-one keeps easily accessible, large dataset of this.
Just because you say that something happens, doesn't mean it does. There is a reason the "eye test" is unreliable. Seriously: either show the numbers that prove our pace is faster without Rondo, or stop parroting unsubstantiated claims.
That's my opinion. If you don't like it, feel free to ignore it, but don't expect me to pay attention to any instruction on how to spend my character limit on CB.
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Rondo is too much of a liability without the basketball to adapt to the Freedom Offense. He's not a legit threat to knock down open shots... we couldn't play this way with Rondo.
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Rondo is too much of a liability without the basketball to adapt to the Freedom Offense. He's not a legit threat to knock down open shots... we couldn't play this way with Rondo.
Not true. There's always a place for a great passer in this kind of offense. He can cut to the hole or take it there himself as well...
You're making it too black and white. Subtle adjustments are the name of the game in sports....
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I'm still worried that our improved "play" is mostly schedule related. We're about to find out with a much tougher stretch especially on the road.
And how much will still be in the tank at the end of the year if 34 & 5 must keep the ship from sinking without Rondo.
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I'm still worried that our improved "play" is mostly schedule related. We're about to find out with a much tougher stretch especially on the road.
And how much will still be in the tank at the end of the year if 34 & 5 must keep the ship from sinking without Rondo.
Just as much.
The majority of the improved play so far has come from players not named Paul Pierce or Kevin Garnett being more efficient in their (expanded) roles.
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Rondo is too much of a liability without the basketball to adapt to the Freedom Offense. He's not a legit threat to knock down open shots... we couldn't play this way with Rondo.
I'd guess you haven't seen many games this year. But it wouldn't be a disaster if we go back to our (generally superior) offense with Rondo.
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I'm still worried that our improved "play" is mostly schedule related. We're about to find out with a much tougher stretch especially on the road.
And how much will still be in the tank at the end of the year if 34 & 5 must keep the ship from sinking without Rondo.
Just as much.
The majority of the improved play so far has come from players not named Paul Pierce or Kevin Garnett being more efficient in their (expanded) roles.
Paul's had 3 double doubles in 4 games and he's getting 6-7 assists a game.
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Rondo is too much of a liability without the basketball to adapt to the Freedom Offense. He's not a legit threat to knock down open shots... we couldn't play this way with Rondo.
I'd guess you haven't seen many games this year. But it wouldn't be a disaster if we go back to our (generally superior) offense with Rondo.
One thing about the on and off splits is the sample size. Rondo plays so much and hardly sits for more than 3-4 minutes at a time that I don't take too much from that data, good or bad.
But just on a general point, is the leader of the 26th best offense that big of a loss? They gain more on defense than they lose on offense. They're also just more fun to watch because ball movement is better than a one-man dribble fest.
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Rondo is too much of a liability without the basketball to adapt to the Freedom Offense. He's not a legit threat to knock down open shots... we couldn't play this way with Rondo.
I'd guess you haven't seen many games this year. But it wouldn't be a disaster if we go back to our (generally superior) offense with Rondo.
One thing about the on and off splits is the sample size. Rondo plays so much and hardly sits for more than 3-4 minutes at a time that I don't take too much from that data, good or bad.
But just on a general point, is the leader of the 26th best offense that big of a loss? They gain more on defense than they lose on offense. They're also just more fun to watch because ball movement is better than a one-man dribble fest.
We're 26th in offense but we're above average in eFG% and TS%. What happens if those numbers take a dive?
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Rondo is too much of a liability without the basketball to adapt to the Freedom Offense. He's not a legit threat to knock down open shots... we couldn't play this way with Rondo.
I disagree. His mid range game has drastically improved, and Rondo is a great PG he can adapt to any offense.
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Rondo is too much of a liability without the basketball to adapt to the Freedom Offense. He's not a legit threat to knock down open shots... we couldn't play this way with Rondo.
I disagree. His mid range game has drastically improved, and Rondo is a great PG he can adapt to any offense.
Yeah, I don't see the problem with playing Rondo off the ball, particularly when he's actually taking the shots, and making them for a change.
He should be able to cut well, and his penetration off ball movement should give him good opportunities.
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Rondo is too much of a liability without the basketball to adapt to the Freedom Offense. He's not a legit threat to knock down open shots... we couldn't play this way with Rondo.
Everyone clearly has a different point of view on this but I agree 100% with LarBrd33. Although you tend to see stretches where Rondo just works the ball more but it seems to always revert back to the norm of Rondo dribbling and waiting for a pass that can result in an assist.
One thing I notice that the coach could fix is after a defensive rebound, if Rondo is on the court, they always give him the ball and he dribbles it the rest of the way, always. Without Rondo, they just seem to let whoever advance the ball and tend to pass more. It seems like they have been told to get Rondo the ball.
Rondo is dangerous as a passer in this situation but I would prefer to see them just taking what is there and let Rondo end up with the ball only when that is a more natural result (vs. always forcing the ball to him).
The defenses though sag off Rondo once you get in a play set situation. Rondo then seems to fall into the trap of not wanting to shoot and not being pressured so he just dribbles and looks. It is a self sustaining cycle that is the result of Rondo not being a shooting threat that the other team is worried about.
If Rondo passes the ball, his man just goes off and doubles. I guess when Rondo is on the floor, we are probably better off with the ball in his hands and his man sagging vs. Rondo not having the ball and his man doubling whoever does have the ball. Thus the the cycle continues of Rondo holding the ball, dribbling, waiting......
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The guy single handedly wheeled us into wins in most games and has always being the one that seemed to care on most games this season (even last). When he creates good looks for guys (who are obviously waiting around in the first place), they still brick most of it.
Overstatement of the year (also, you probably meant 'willed'?).
Also, maybe guys wouldn't be standing around if Rondo wasn't dribbling for half of the shot clock at the top of the key.
Last year that wasn't a problem. The personnel around Rondo preferred to play off the ball more than this group does. Rondo, no Doc adjusted to that change and as a result we've been running the same sets and Rondo has been playing the same way he played last year.
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Rondo is too much of a liability without the basketball to adapt to the Freedom Offense. He's not a legit threat to knock down open shots... we couldn't play this way with Rondo.
Everyone clearly has a different point of view on this but I agree 100% with LarBrd33. Although you tend to see stretches where Rondo just works the ball more but it seems to always revert back to the norm of Rondo dribbling and waiting for a pass that can result in an assist.
One thing I notice that the coach could fix is after a defensive rebound, if Rondo is on the court, they always give him the ball and he dribbles it the rest of the way, always. Without Rondo, they just seem to let whoever advance the ball and tend to pass more. It seems like they have been told to get Rondo the ball.
Rondo is dangerous as a passer in this situation but I would prefer to see them just taking what is there and let Rondo end up with the ball only when that is a more natural result (vs. always forcing the ball to him).
The defenses though sag off Rondo once you get in a play set situation. Rondo then seems to fall into the trap of not wanting to shoot and not being pressured so he just dribbles and looks. It is a self sustaining cycle that is the result of Rondo not being a shooting threat that the other team is worried about.
If Rondo passes the ball, his man just goes off and doubles. I guess when Rondo is on the floor, we are probably better off with the ball in his hands and his man sagging vs. Rondo not having the ball and his man doubling whoever does have the ball. Thus the the cycle continues of Rondo holding the ball, dribbling, waiting......
TP. It's also why we don't post very often and why we went out of our way to find bigs who could hit jump shots (both by training Glen Davis to shoot and then trading Davis for a better version in Brandon Bass). Having jump shooting big men opens the paint for Rondo drives and allows him to be surrounded with 4 guys capable of knocking down shots. If you tried to post up with Rondo out there, Rondo's defender would sag off and the post-up player would get doubled.
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Here is why Rondo may not fit. If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense. Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless. Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.
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Here is why Rondo may not fit. If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense. Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless. Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.
Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
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Here is why Rondo may not fit. If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense. Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless. Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.
Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball. Game plan all you want. But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.
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Here is why Rondo may not fit. If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense. Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless. Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.
Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball. Game plan all you want. But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.
His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
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Here is why Rondo may not fit. If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense. Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless. Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.
Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball. Game plan all you want. But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.
His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats. Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year. But that really doesn't tell the whole story. Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo. Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball. Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.
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Here is why Rondo may not fit. If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense. Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless. Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.
Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball. Game plan all you want. But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.
His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats. Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year. But that really doesn't tell the whole story. Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo. Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball. Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.
Huh? Rondo has been quite consistent this year in taking and making open shots, particularly from a set position (which is our main interest in this discussion of playing off the ball).
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shooting 48% is not respectable. means he's missing more than he makes them -- and in reality in 1 game he makes em all and in another game he misses them all. you'd much rather Rondo take the shot than PP or KG, who would probably shoot 60% or more from that area. If I'm the opposing team.
I'd also like to know how Rondo would adapt to this. I can't see it right now. I also said he could be a cutter but I'm not 100% sure that's his game. Rondo kinda needs the ball in his hands.
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shooting 48% is not respectable. means he's missing more than he makes them -- and in reality in 1 game he makes em all and in another game he misses them all. you'd much rather Rondo take the shot than PP or KG, who would probably shoot 60% or more from that area. If I'm the opposing team.
I'd also like to know how Rondo would adapt to this. I can't see it right now. I also said he could be a cutter but I'm not 100% sure that's his game. Rondo kinda needs the ball in his hands.
I don't think you have a good view of what "respectable" fg% is. Everyone is streaky and mid to high 40s is very good for jump shots.
Rondo is an excellent off the ball cutter, just hasn't done it as much since getting more ball handling responsibility. If you want evidence roll some 07-09 tape. He's very sneaky on the baseline too.
I'm not worried about Rondo adapting to a less ball dominant role,
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Here is why Rondo may not fit. If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense. Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless. Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.
Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball. Game plan all you want. But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.
His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats. Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year. But that really doesn't tell the whole story. Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo. Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball. Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.
Huh? Rondo has been quite consistent this year in taking and making open shots, particularly from a set position (which is our main interest in this discussion of playing off the ball).
Have teams started to guard Rondo more honestly for his shot? Have they continued to double off of Rondo? Do they continue to clog the lane when Rondo doesn't have the ball?
Until those things change, Rondo will continue to be a liabiability off the ball. He passes up a lot of open shots which perpetuates the Rondo defense strategy.
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Here is why Rondo may not fit. If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense. Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless. Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.
Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball. Game plan all you want. But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.
His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats. Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year. But that really doesn't tell the whole story. Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo. Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball. Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.
Huh? Rondo has been quite consistent this year in taking and making open shots, particularly from a set position (which is our main interest in this discussion of playing off the ball).
Have teams started to guard Rondo more honestly for his shot? Have they continued to double off of Rondo? Do they continue to clog the lane when Rondo doesn't have the ball?
Until those things change, Rondo will continue to be a liabiability off the ball. He passes up a lot of open shots which perpetuates the Rondo defense strategy.
Don't care, as long as the pass is going to Rondo when he's open, and he's taking it (which he has been doing) and he's making them (which he has been doing).
Passes a lot of open shots is pure exaggeration, and inaccurate as far as it pertains to this season.
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Here is why Rondo may not fit. If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense. Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless. Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.
Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball. Game plan all you want. But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.
His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats. Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year. But that really doesn't tell the whole story. Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo. Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball. Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.
Huh? Rondo has been quite consistent this year in taking and making open shots, particularly from a set position (which is our main interest in this discussion of playing off the ball).
Have teams started to guard Rondo more honestly for his shot? Have they continued to double off of Rondo? Do they continue to clog the lane when Rondo doesn't have the ball?
Until those things change, Rondo will continue to be a liabiability off the ball. He passes up a lot of open shots which perpetuates the Rondo defense strategy.
Don't care, as long as the pass is going to Rondo when he's open, and he's taking it (which he has been doing) and he's making them (which he has been doing).
Passes a lot of open shots is pure exaggeration, and inaccurate as far as it pertains to this season.
Clearly, me and you see things differently. I'm not a metrics guy so I don't know what they say about this, but yeah, I still see Rondo passing up lots of shots.
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Here is why Rondo may not fit. If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense. Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless. Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.
Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball. Game plan all you want. But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.
His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats. Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year. But that really doesn't tell the whole story. Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo. Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball. Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.
Huh? Rondo has been quite consistent this year in taking and making open shots, particularly from a set position (which is our main interest in this discussion of playing off the ball).
Have teams started to guard Rondo more honestly for his shot? Have they continued to double off of Rondo? Do they continue to clog the lane when Rondo doesn't have the ball?
Until those things change, Rondo will continue to be a liabiability off the ball. He passes up a lot of open shots which perpetuates the Rondo defense strategy.
Don't care, as long as the pass is going to Rondo when he's open, and he's taking it (which he has been doing) and he's making them (which he has been doing).
Passes a lot of open shots is pure exaggeration, and inaccurate as far as it pertains to this season.
Clearly, me and you see things differently. I'm not a metrics guy so I don't know what they say about this, but yeah, I still see Rondo passing up lots of shots.
What he does do is not take open layups and passing it, don't know if that's what you're referring to. But this year, whenever he's been in a set position open, and the pass goes to him, he's been taking it. This wasn't the case in other seasons... last year he started taking them with more frequency, but still inconsistent. This year he's been quite consistent with his jump shots, both at taking them and making them. In fact, this is the first season where I've seen him quite a few times try to take an off the dribble jump shot in transition.
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Here is why Rondo may not fit. If he isn't dominating the ball and creating for others, then he is most definitely hurting the team on offense. Because away from the ball, he is fairly useless. Teams double off him already and his presence on the court makes it more difficult for others to score.
Hopefully the coaches will be able to come up with a game plan that doesn't have our best passer and playmaker standing without seeing the ball. Sounds crazy, I know.
Any game plan that involves Rondo playing off the ball more than he does will more than likely result in a defense that takes advantage of Rondo playing off the ball. Game plan all you want. But there is only so much one can do to hide a player's weakness.
His "weakness" is something he did very well at this year. I don't know that this will be a huge problem for the Celts.
I've seen the stats. Rondo is shooting a decent percentage on jump shots this year. But that really doesn't tell the whole story. Teams continue to sag off, clog the lane, or double off rondo. Hitting a few shots a game isn't enough to counteract what happens when rondo doesn't shoot the ball. Until rondo consistently makes and TAKES these open shots, he will continue to be a liability off the ball.
Never mind the fact that he takes more of those long twos than the average point guards and has for a few years/
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Can you actually provide ANY evidence that Rondo eats up more of the shot clock than any other player? Or that our team is paying at a faster pace, now?
You can't provide evidence that he "eats up" shot clock, because for it to be non-anecdotal, someone has to actually track down what we do during a shot clock. A 20-second possession in which we passed the ball around 5 times is fundamentally different than a 20-second possession where Rondo dribbled around for 12 seconds waiting for something to happen. To my knowledge, no-one keeps easily accessible, large dataset of this.
Apparently I was wrong:
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4702036/grantland-are-cs-really-better
Hat tip to gar for digging this out in another thread.