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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ctrey on February 04, 2013, 11:56:10 PM

Title: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: ctrey on February 04, 2013, 11:56:10 PM
I can admit it. I have no idea what is going on with this team. Now two of the last four victories have been against teams we absolutely should have won. One was against a team without it's best player and clearly going through a rough patch. Beating Miami, who knows?

Now I do not buy that this team is better without Rondo but something does look different over the last four games. Celtics may revert to the mean, in this case staying at around .500 but honestly I do not know.

Clearly Jason Terry is better without Rondo around. It also appears that this uptempo style and extra team passing favors Jeff Green. Or Green is finally in playing shape and getting plenty of minutes playing the 3 or a 4 in a small ball lineup? I have always thought that if Green was allowed to just play the 3 he would produce solid numbers. Something along the lines of Danny Granger. (Why folks think we would trade for Granger when we have the same player basically being paid a lot less mystifies me.)

Again, I tend to think that losing Rondo and Sullinger will start to wear us down. I do not believe we can make it to the Finals or win a title as the team is now. This has all been terribly heroic but I do not expect it to last. However, they do have a different "look" about them so who knows?

Finally there seems to be a staggering amount of smoke on the trade front. That just adds to confusion about this team. Who is going? Who may stay? Will they trade to simply get under the tax line or will the rebuilding begin? It would seem at least one more PF or C is needed. Should Wilcox or Collins go down (A real possibility I think) we would be in huge trouble. I also find it interesting that the team seems to have indicated that Sullinger could have kept playing but that they elected to shut him down now with a view towards the future. Things become even more curious.

I see no one on the free agent scrap heap worth picking up. This Kenyon Martin love befuddles me to say the least. If he had anything left someone would have given him a shot. I think between having nothing in the tank and not being the greatest locker room type people are done with him.

Look, at the very least watching them finally play with boundless heart and passion is a thrill. At the same time the whole thing seems to have a smoke and mirrors quality to it. Every few minutes another trade rumor regarding one of our players pops up. Every hour a mention of "perhaps they are better without Rondo" is posted.

It sure is weird. That is for sure. All I know is that between now and February 21st we are in for a bumpy ride.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 05, 2013, 01:00:32 AM
Feel similar(ly confused, lol) on all fronts. Enjoyed the post. TP.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 05, 2013, 01:25:07 AM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

In the long run tho i don't think we will have enough star power to bring down the heat or bulls. When i say star power i mean the guys that will take over the game when needed in the playoffs. Pierce and kg can do it at times but i don't think they can do it consistently enough.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: kg is king on February 05, 2013, 01:54:41 AM
I can admit it. I have no idea what is going on with this team. Now two of the last four victories have been against teams we absolutely should have won. One was against a team without it's best player and clearly going through a rough patch. Beating Miami, who knows?

Now I do not buy that this team is better without Rondo but something does look different over the last four games. Celtics may revert to the mean, in this case staying at around .500 but honestly I do not know.

Clearly Jason Terry is better without Rondo around. It also appears that this uptempo style and extra team passing favors Jeff Green. Or Green is finally in playing shape and getting plenty of minutes playing the 3 or a 4 in a small ball lineup? I have always thought that if Green was allowed to just play the 3 he would produce solid numbers. Something along the lines of Danny Granger. (Why folks think we would trade for Granger when we have the same player basically being paid a lot less mystifies me.)
I am sorry but I'll have to disagree with the bolded statement. Granger and Green are not similar players. Granger is a career 38% shooter from three whereas Green is at 34%. Green is an average shooter at best who thrives on posting up smaller players and in transition. Granger on the other hand can create his own shots better than Green, but is primarily a jump shooter.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: indeedproceed on February 05, 2013, 02:43:28 AM
I can admit it. I have no idea what is going on with this team. Now two of the last four victories have been against teams we absolutely should have won. One was against a team without it's best player and clearly going through a rough patch. Beating Miami, who knows?

Now I do not buy that this team is better without Rondo but something does look different over the last four games. Celtics may revert to the mean, in this case staying at around .500 but honestly I do not know.

Clearly Jason Terry is better without Rondo around. It also appears that this uptempo style and extra team passing favors Jeff Green. Or Green is finally in playing shape and getting plenty of minutes playing the 3 or a 4 in a small ball lineup? I have always thought that if Green was allowed to just play the 3 he would produce solid numbers. Something along the lines of Danny Granger. (Why folks think we would trade for Granger when we have the same player basically being paid a lot less mystifies me.)
I am sorry but I'll have to disagree with the bolded statement. Granger and Green are not similar players. Granger is a career 38% shooter from three whereas Green is at 34%. Green is an average shooter at best who thrives on posting up smaller players and in transition. Granger on the other hand can create his own shots better than Green, but is primarily a jump shooter.

Danny Granger hasn't looked like Danny Granger in a long time. Nobody seems to know why. It is concerning.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: Smutzy#9 on February 05, 2013, 03:53:59 AM
Im gonna put it this way. During the season losing Rondo may seem so so. The area where it is really going to show is in the playoffs where half court sets are in full swing and the pace of the game slows right down.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: jdz101 on February 05, 2013, 06:36:50 AM
Im gonna put it this way. During the season losing Rondo may seem so so. The area where it is really going to show is in the playoffs where half court sets are in full swing and the pace of the game slows right down.

(http://blueskiesabove.us/pics/gifs/busey_clapping_hypno.gif)

Listening to this man will bring you endless wisdom.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BballTim on February 05, 2013, 07:58:37 AM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

  Also, there have been long(ish) stretches over the last few years where the Celts offense has performed especially well and those have been the times where Rondo's been controlling the offense the most and getting the most assists. It might be true that people like watching the offense more when it's more diverse, it's not true the team's playing better offense.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 05, 2013, 08:06:30 AM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

  Also, there have been long(ish) stretches over the last few years where the Celts offense has performed especially well and those have been the times where Rondo's been controlling the offense the most and getting the most assists. It might be true that people like watching the offense more when it's more diverse, it's not true the team's playing better offense.

I'm not saying the celtics have never played well with rondo dominating the ball. Everything always looks better when everybody is hitting jumpshots.

I just think we play better as a team when the ball is shared and not dominated by one person. If you've been paying attention to interviews lately pretty much everybody on the team agrees with me as well.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: scaryjerry on February 05, 2013, 08:07:09 AM
I'm almost positive rondo plays his best game of the year if he doesn't get injured against the heat in a win...the next 3 wins are luck of the draw and all at home...the clippers just lost to the wizards and playing their worst ball of the year.

Yeah doc simplified things and the team is playing harder now that they've been counted out and their pride was on the line...not buying anything yet other then the east is weak and we could possibly still make some noise.

For the people who think we're better without Rondo....better without sully too? All of a sudden bass and Collins look better then they have all year and Wilcox gets minutes   :P
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: action781 on February 05, 2013, 08:37:09 AM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

  Also, there have been long(ish) stretches over the last few years where the Celts offense has performed especially well and those have been the times where Rondo's been controlling the offense the most and getting the most assists. It might be true that people like watching the offense more when it's more diverse, it's not true the team's playing better offense.

I think that's a very accurate first point Tim. 

I think particularly Terry will play better because now he gets to play more minutes, but mostly, with the ball in his hands more where he is most threatening.  He will be the biggest beneficiary.  I think he'll revert to the level he played in Dallas.

I think Bass will play better because he will now be back in his role he had last season opposed to being jerked in and out of the starting lineup with another PF breathing down his neck.

I think Green will play better because the sheer increase in minutes at backup 4 and backup 3 will allow him to just play whereas before I think he was thinking about his game too much and how he should play.

Lee will probably benefit from the new style of play given his comment leaked a week ago regarding personal preference on that issue.  Inconsistent playing time had to be a concern of his too.

I could manufacture a reason for the rest of the gang, but I'd rather stick with those 4 because I think the reasons are pretty natural and evident to all who watch.

Tim, I've argued much with you about Rondo's offense.  If you think I believe this, I just want you to know that I don't argue that we are at our best with Rondo at our best over the past few years.  What I've been arguing in these threads is that Rondo has not been at his best this season.  When he's not at his best + has the ball in his hands at all times, I think that is the reason for our weak offense this year.  And I truly believe we'd see him at his best come playoff time, but not seeing that for the majority of the reg season is frustrating for someone who shells out several thousand $ a year in season tickets.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: Fan from VT on February 05, 2013, 08:48:15 AM
I do think that Rondo was/is generally our second best player. However, he was wildly inconsistent; in some games (national TV, playoffs...something like 70% of his triple doubles are on national TV games, which account for less than 20% of his games, I believe) he can win it by himself, but the bulk of the time he is just kind of there. This becomes a problem because he is so ball-dominant, and Terry is much better with the ball than off the ball. THis doesn't mean he plays point, but for example when he was with Kidd, he would initiate pick and roll and have Kidd as an outlet to drain open threes, something Rondo cannot do. So with Rondo out, Terry gets to shoot more off the dribble than off the catch, which helps him. Then both Pierce and KG are well above average passers for their position, it's part of what makes them stand out. But when you have two very good passers in an offense that basically runs everything off of one primary passer, those skills become irrelevant/redundant.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BballTim on February 05, 2013, 08:51:13 AM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

  Also, there have been long(ish) stretches over the last few years where the Celts offense has performed especially well and those have been the times where Rondo's been controlling the offense the most and getting the most assists. It might be true that people like watching the offense more when it's more diverse, it's not true the team's playing better offense.

I'm not saying the celtics have never played well with rondo dominating the ball. Everything always looks better when everybody is hitting jumpshots.

  Likewise it's easier to his shots when you're getting easier looks at the basket.

I just think we play better as a team when the ball is shared and not dominated by one person. If you've been paying attention to interviews lately pretty much everybody on the team agrees with me as well.

  I haven't heard all the interviews but I haven't seen any claiming the team's better off without Rondo running the offense.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: kozlodoev on February 05, 2013, 08:53:49 AM
I just think we play better as a team when the ball is shared and not dominated by one person. If you've been paying attention to interviews lately pretty much everybody on the team agrees with me as well.

  I haven't heard all the interviews but I haven't seen any claiming the team's better off without Rondo running the offense.
I'd be surprised if anyone on the team goes out to directly say we're better without Rondo. Not great for team-building. So they will give you the party line of how it's "not any one guy" and "everyone has to step up".

But to me at least it's kind of obvious that there are surprisingly many things that the team does better without Rondo.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: scaryjerry on February 05, 2013, 08:55:34 AM
I do think that Rondo was/is generally our second best player. However, he was wildly inconsistent; in some games (national TV, playoffs...something like 70% of his triple doubles are on national TV games, which account for less than 20% of his games, I believe) he can win it by himself, but the bulk of the time he is just kind of there. This becomes a problem because he is so ball-dominant, and Terry is much better with the ball than off the ball. THis doesn't mean he plays point, but for example when he was with Kidd, he would initiate pick and roll and have Kidd as an outlet to drain open threes, something Rondo cannot do. So with Rondo out, Terry gets to shoot more off the dribble than off the catch, which helps him. Then both Pierce and KG are well above average passers for their position, it's part of what makes them stand out. But when you have two very good passers in an offense that basically runs everything off of one primary passer, those skills become irrelevant/redundant.

Much of this on doc...and as far as Terry...kg isn't close to playing the pick and roll like Dirk...pretty sure you can't just blame it on rondo
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: scaryjerry on February 05, 2013, 09:00:15 AM
I just think we play better as a team when the ball is shared and not dominated by one person. If you've been paying attention to interviews lately pretty much everybody on the team agrees with me as well.

  I haven't heard all the interviews but I haven't seen any claiming the team's better off without Rondo running the offense.
I'd be surprised if anyone on the team goes out to directly say we're better without Rondo. Not great for team-building. So they will give you the party line of how it's "not any one guy" and "everyone has to step up".

But to me at least it's kind of obvious that there are surprisingly many things that the team does better without Rondo.

The guys that have been through the wars with rondo know we aren't better, or better off...the new guys might be naive and delusional enough and just happy to get the minutes...the "party line" is pretty accurate but idk maybe we just need to lose someone else for the year to be true contenders since we seem to do things better without rondo and sully ::) ::)
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BballTim on February 05, 2013, 09:09:06 AM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

  Also, there have been long(ish) stretches over the last few years where the Celts offense has performed especially well and those have been the times where Rondo's been controlling the offense the most and getting the most assists. It might be true that people like watching the offense more when it's more diverse, it's not true the team's playing better offense.

I think that's a very accurate first point Tim. 

I think particularly Terry will play better because now he gets to play more minutes, but mostly, with the ball in his hands more where he is most threatening.  He will be the biggest beneficiary.  I think he'll revert to the level he played in Dallas.

I think Bass will play better because he will now be back in his role he had last season opposed to being jerked in and out of the starting lineup with another PF breathing down his neck.

I think Green will play better because the sheer increase in minutes at backup 4 and backup 3 will allow him to just play whereas before I think he was thinking about his game too much and how he should play.

Lee will probably benefit from the new style of play given his comment leaked a week ago regarding personal preference on that issue.  Inconsistent playing time had to be a concern of his too.

I could manufacture a reason for the rest of the gang, but I'd rather stick with those 4 because I think the reasons are pretty natural and evident to all who watch.

  I'm not arguing with people who claim that certain players are playing better when Rondo's not there and they have the ball more, I just don't think our overall offense has been better.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: Celtics18 on February 05, 2013, 09:23:31 AM
Our offense during the six game losing streak was atrocious, but I don't see how that can be pinned solely on Rondo.  The fact is that pretty much everyone on the team was mired in awful shooting slumps during that stretch. 

Guys were getting looks that they normally get, but it just seemed that nobody was able to put the ball in the basket. 

I've been one of the few people that thought the Celtics were a contender when Rondo was still playing.  Now that he's down, I'm not so sure.  I want to believe, and I love the way they've been playing over the last four games.  I just don't know if they'll have the firepower once the playoffs come around.  For me, the two guys who will really have to continue to step up offensively to make up for the loss are Green and Terry.  I love the way Bradley and Lee play.  I dig their defensive energy and floor running, but offensively, I think they are both fairly limited players. 
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 05, 2013, 09:27:21 AM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up into their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who need to be the #4 to excel.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 05, 2013, 09:29:40 AM
Our offense during the six game losing streak was atrocious, but I don't see how that can be pinned solely on Rondo.  The fact is that pretty much everyone on the team was mired in awful shooting slumps during that stretch. 

Guys were getting looks that they normally get, but it just seemed that nobody was able to put the ball in the basket. 

I've been one of the few people that thought the Celtics were a contender when Rondo was still playing.  Now that he's down, I'm not so sure.  I want to believe, and I love the way they've been playing over the last four games.  I just don't know if they'll have the firepower once the playoffs come around.  For me, the two guys who will really have to continue to step up offensively to make up for the loss are Green and Terry.  I love the way Bradley and Lee play.  I dig their defensive energy and floor running, but offensively, I think they are both fairly limited players.

Great post.  TP
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: Celtics18 on February 05, 2013, 09:32:01 AM
Our offense during the six game losing streak was atrocious, but I don't see how that can be pinned solely on Rondo.  The fact is that pretty much everyone on the team was mired in awful shooting slumps during that stretch. 

Guys were getting looks that they normally get, but it just seemed that nobody was able to put the ball in the basket. 

I've been one of the few people that thought the Celtics were a contender when Rondo was still playing.  Now that he's down, I'm not so sure.  I want to believe, and I love the way they've been playing over the last four games.  I just don't know if they'll have the firepower once the playoffs come around.  For me, the two guys who will really have to continue to step up offensively to make up for the loss are Green and Terry.  I love the way Bradley and Lee play.  I dig their defensive energy and floor running, but offensively, I think they are both fairly limited players.

Great post.  TP

Thanks.  I'll give a TP for a compliment.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 05, 2013, 09:41:35 AM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up to their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who want to be the #4.

I don't think that's true. Lee's minutes increased, nothing has improved much for him, nothing has fundamentally changed in his play other than a couple of bad shooting nights.

Barbosa's minutes increased, but he's really about the same he's always was.

Bradley is playing about the same, his efficiency has dropped.

The only real notable change with Rondo off has been with Terry's play lately, and his minutes are not any different than previously.

Pierce is playing better, though I think Rondo is irrelevant to it.

Bass? I don't think it has anything to do with Rondo, or Sully for that matter.

Green? Could go either way, but he had a good January, so don't think Rondo has much to do with it. That said, I'd wager that Green has been getting easier looks in transition than previously.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BballTim on February 05, 2013, 09:51:10 AM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up into their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who need to be the #4 to excel.

  I was getting fairly curious about how the playoffs were going to pan out. Doc was going to have to tell Sully or Bass and one of the sgs that they were out of the regular rotation so he could go with his usual 8-9 players. I think a lot of the improvements from steadier minutes and better defined roles would have been realized then instead of now.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: LilRip on February 05, 2013, 09:52:31 AM
i really think it was the logjam. too many guys worthy of minutes, but not enough minutes to go around. guys seem to just be playing more free now. barbosa has done a pretty good job too, and he was hardly playing before rondo went down.

this is kinda why i wanted to trade rondo earlier on too. not wanting to start any debates again (because lets face it, rondo's not getting traded with a torn acl), but say we got a guy like Cousins for him. We get pretty much equal talent coming in, it frees up a ton of minutes for our guards (Terry/Lee/Bradley/Barbosa) and we don't have to play Collins and Wilcox at all. Of course, it would destroy KG and Pierce to see Rondo go, and i dunno if the damage to chemistry would be irreparable, but Cousins is legit.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: kgainez on February 05, 2013, 10:08:41 AM
i'm confused as well and I'm trying not to get too up or down about the team. just enjoying the wins. i feel like a trade is going to happen but i mean...say we only lose a handful of games (less than 5) by feb 21. DA really going to break that up? hmm

I think the players are being utilized better. This worries me because t makes me feel like Doc is being exposed as well as Rondo. I think we obviously miss Sully's rebounding but if we could get more from Wilcox athleticism, that MIGHT even things out just a LIL bit.

And then the offense has looked so good because the floor is so SPREAD. People do not respect Rondo's shot...at all...even if he is 48% mid range. They still sag off him and make KG and PP's job harder. So when he returns are we really supposed to play this spread, free offense? I'm not concerned about Rondo being loose, but just about Rondo being effective like that.

I don't know. It's all so confusing.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BballTim on February 05, 2013, 10:33:02 AM
i really think it was the logjam. too many guys worthy of minutes, but not enough minutes to go around. guys seem to just be playing more free now. barbosa has done a pretty good job too, and he was hardly playing before rondo went down.

this is kinda why i wanted to trade rondo earlier on too. not wanting to start any debates again (because lets face it, rondo's not getting traded with a torn acl), but say we got a guy like Cousins for him. We get pretty much equal talent coming in, it frees up a ton of minutes for our guards (Terry/Lee/Bradley/Barbosa) and we don't have to play Collins and Wilcox at all. Of course, it would destroy KG and Pierce to see Rondo go, and i dunno if the damage to chemistry would be irreparable, but Cousins is legit.

  I'm not a big fan of Cousins or of unloading your best player in order to free up playing time for the backups.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BballTim on February 05, 2013, 10:38:40 AM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up to their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who want to be the #4.

I don't think that's true. Lee's minutes increased, nothing has improved much for him, nothing has fundamentally changed in his play other than a couple of bad shooting nights.

Barbosa's minutes increased, but he's really about the same he's always was.

Bradley is playing about the same, his efficiency has dropped.

The only real notable change with Rondo off has been with Terry's play lately, and his minutes are not any different than previously.

Pierce is playing better, though I think Rondo is irrelevant to it.

Bass? I don't think it has anything to do with Rondo, or Sully for that matter.

Green? Could go either way, but he had a good January, so don't think Rondo has much to do with it. That said, I'd wager that Green has been getting easier looks in transition than previously.

  For whatever reason the team's playing with more focus and energy since Rondo went down. That's translated to better defense, not better offense. Their numbers aren't going to be much better.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: Fafnir on February 05, 2013, 10:43:03 AM
I'm not even sure the team is playing better at all at this point. We usually play the Heat tough, especially at home, and the other three teams all are playing bad basketball right now.

Then again we didn't exactly play terrible every game of our 6 game losing streak either so I don't know. I think with the schedule getting tougher we're going to continue the roller coaster ride.

Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 05, 2013, 10:49:30 AM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up to their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who want to be the #4.

I don't think that's true. Lee's minutes increased, nothing has improved much for him, nothing has fundamentally changed in his play other than a couple of bad shooting nights.

Barbosa's minutes increased, but he's really about the same he's always was.

Bradley is playing about the same, his efficiency has dropped.

The only real notable change with Rondo off has been with Terry's play lately, and his minutes are not any different than previously.

Pierce is playing better, though I think Rondo is irrelevant to it.

Bass? I don't think it has anything to do with Rondo, or Sully for that matter.

Green? Could go either way, but he had a good January, so don't think Rondo has much to do with it. That said, I'd wager that Green has been getting easier looks in transition than previously.

  For whatever reason the team's playing with more focus and energy since Rondo went down. That's translated to better defense, not better offense. Their numbers aren't going to be much better.

I haven't noticed any changes defensively from an individual standpoint. Bass maybe, but he was already picking up his defense before Sully went down... his effort at least.

So while overall we may be playing better defense, I don't think it has much to do with our players playing any different than previously.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BballTim on February 05, 2013, 12:05:36 PM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up to their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who want to be the #4.

I don't think that's true. Lee's minutes increased, nothing has improved much for him, nothing has fundamentally changed in his play other than a couple of bad shooting nights.

Barbosa's minutes increased, but he's really about the same he's always was.

Bradley is playing about the same, his efficiency has dropped.

The only real notable change with Rondo off has been with Terry's play lately, and his minutes are not any different than previously.

Pierce is playing better, though I think Rondo is irrelevant to it.

Bass? I don't think it has anything to do with Rondo, or Sully for that matter.

Green? Could go either way, but he had a good January, so don't think Rondo has much to do with it. That said, I'd wager that Green has been getting easier looks in transition than previously.

  For whatever reason the team's playing with more focus and energy since Rondo went down. That's translated to better defense, not better offense. Their numbers aren't going to be much better.

I haven't noticed any changes defensively from an individual standpoint. Bass maybe, but he was already picking up his defense before Sully went down... his effort at least.

So while overall we may be playing better defense, I don't think it has much to do with our players playing any different than previously.

  More effort, more focus, more aggressiveness. Probably better help defense, possibly getting back quicker. Nothing major, but there wasn't really anything major that was wrong with us. We've been very streaky, meaning we were capable of playing well but haven't done it consistently. That's why I was less pessimistic abut our chances than many here. Take the team the way it's playing now and put it in the playoffs with a healthy Rondo and they'd be capable of beating anyone.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: scaryjerry on February 05, 2013, 12:48:53 PM
I'm not even sure the team is playing better at all at this point. We usually play the Heat tough, especially at home, and the other three teams all are playing bad basketball right now.

Then again we didn't exactly play terrible every game of our 6 game losing streak either so I don't know. I think with the schedule getting tougher we're going to continue the roller coaster ride.


Yup, absolutely.
When rondo and Bradley were healthy for the only time this year we won 6 in a row and pieces were falling together against decent competition, Bradley got banged up, pierce played the worst 6 game stretch possibly in his career and rondo playing on a torn acl capped off a 6 game losing streak and the choke against Atlanta before heading into the Miami game...which we were going to win with rondo...certainly didn't win it because we were without him....as you said the last 3 have been against teams playing worse then anyone in the league by far while our sense of urgency is up and pierce out of his slump.

It's cute for anyone and everyone who already disliked rondo right now...congrats to them
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: angryguy77 on February 05, 2013, 12:54:02 PM
seems like the team might be playing with something to prove. I unfortunately think they'll come down to earth.

I hope I'm wrong, but it's like a team that gets a new coach mid-season and goes on a win streak.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: kgainez on February 05, 2013, 12:55:46 PM
I'm not even sure the team is playing better at all at this point. We usually play the Heat tough, especially at home, and the other three teams all are playing bad basketball right now.

Then again we didn't exactly play terrible every game of our 6 game losing streak either so I don't know. I think with the schedule getting tougher we're going to continue the roller coaster ride.


Yup, absolutely.
When rondo and Bradley were healthy for the only time this year we won 6 in a row and pieces were falling together against decent competition, Bradley got banged up, pierce played the worst 6 game stretch possibly in his career and rondo playing on a torn acl capped off a 6 game losing streak and the choke against Atlanta before heading into the Miami game...which we were going to win with rondo...certainly didn't win it because we were without him....as you said the last 3 have been against teams playing worse then anyone in the league by far while our sense of urgency is up and pierce out of his slump.

It's cute for anyone and everyone who already disliked rondo right now...congrats to them

1. sacramento beat us by 20ish points when PP was shooting fine.
2. you can argue AB back was pure excitement, as the last 3 games we won were still very ugly games in the 6 game winning streak.
3. how can you say what game we would've won with Rondo? lol. We lost to them by 15ish in the season opener.
4. i will take orlando as the obvious give me win.
5. clips have the best BENCH in the league. and a blake griffin. i'm supposed to believe they absolutely need their pg to beat the 500 celtics without their pg? ok.

I just feel like whatever they do, no one will be happy with it. there are things to take away from each win.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: AshyLarry on February 05, 2013, 01:08:51 PM
And as usual, Celtics fans just have no clue how to feel right now.

I feel like an early adolescent again, just so many emotions, and not sure what to do with them, who to hate on, who to be happy with. Rondo's the best passing pg in the NBA, but wait, our passing's better without him!!

AHHHHHHHH!!!!!

We're just so mixed up! Hahaha it's ridiculous.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: Fafnir on February 05, 2013, 01:19:08 PM
5. clips have the best BENCH in the league. and a blake griffin. i'm supposed to believe they absolutely need their pg to beat the 500 celtics without their pg? ok.
Clippers have been playing poorly lately. They're under .500 since January 1st and have a point differential of essentially zero. They're missing CP3 badly and their bench has come back to earth.

Plus the C's could have easily lost that game, just as they did to the Hawks.

I just feel like whatever they do, no one will be happy with it. there are things to take away from each win.
This is true with any small group of wins, you have to keep winning for it to mean something. With so many games of bad play, more games of inconsistent play, and fewest of all games of superior play the team has to prove it.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: scaryjerry on February 05, 2013, 01:22:16 PM
I'm not even sure the team is playing better at all at this point. We usually play the Heat tough, especially at home, and the other three teams all are playing bad basketball right now.

Then again we didn't exactly play terrible every game of our 6 game losing streak either so I don't know. I think with the schedule getting tougher we're going to continue the roller coaster ride.


Yup, absolutely.
When rondo and Bradley were healthy for the only time this year we won 6 in a row and pieces were falling together against decent competition, Bradley got banged up, pierce played the worst 6 game stretch possibly in his career and rondo playing on a torn acl capped off a 6 game losing streak and the choke against Atlanta before heading into the Miami game...which we were going to win with rondo...certainly didn't win it because we were without him....as you said the last 3 have been against teams playing worse then anyone in the league by far while our sense of urgency is up and pierce out of his slump.

It's cute for anyone and everyone who already disliked rondo right now...congrats to them

1. sacramento beat us by 20ish points when PP was shooting fine.
2. you can argue AB back was pure excitement, as the last 3 games we won were still very ugly games in the 6 game winning streak.
3. how can you say what game we would've won with Rondo? lol. We lost to them by 15ish in the season opener.
4. i will take orlando as the obvious give me win.
5. clips have the best BENCH in the league. and a blake griffin. i'm supposed to believe they absolutely need their pg to beat the 500 celtics without their pg? ok.

I just feel like whatever they do, no one will be happy with it. there are things to take away from each win.

Rondo has easily been the best player vs Miami for us in recent years and we clearly could've used him in that eventual double ot win..maybe that's why.

Sacramento played their best game in years that night, the Celtics were out west on a back to back, rondo came back too soon from a hip injury that game, still no Bradley in the lineup...you can't compare it with a young garbage road team playing across the country in the garden and playing the exact opposite effort wise as when we saw them in Sacramento..sorry just can't.

Clippers another team playing across the country at 1 o clock no less without their top player and already slumping on top of it, getting blown out by the raptors the game before and losing to the wizards following...they're not playing well.

Look I am happy they aren't going into the tank and as pierce has directly stated "playing for rondo" but this is easily fools gold
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 05, 2013, 05:48:43 PM
We'll see, i definitely know that certain players for sure play better without rondo. I mean its clear as day terry does. As a team i think we play better when rondo isn't dominating the ball.

  I'm starting to wonder how much of the improved individual play we're seeing from some of the guys is from the logjams in playing time that were relieved from Rondo and Sully's injuries. People don't have to worry about whether they'll play 10 minute or 25 tonight, and their roles are more set. Doc simplifying the offense helped some of the people as well.

Yeah I had a similar thought - if there's one thing injuries do, it's tighten up the rotation in a hurry.

I think the certainty of reliable minutes helps, but I also think player efficiency runs on a curve - most players struggle to be effective with too small or too big a role.  We've been asking guys who've spent their careers as #3-7 players to be our 6-11 options.  Now almost everyone has moved up to their comfort zone, and we're seeing them respond well.

I don't think Rondo out helps us overall (though it might improve us in some of his weaker areas), but maybe there's something to be said for trying to have a more traditional rotation in the future instead of three stars and 8 guys who want to be the #4.

I don't think that's true. Lee's minutes increased, nothing has improved much for him, nothing has fundamentally changed in his play other than a couple of bad shooting nights.

Barbosa's minutes increased, but he's really about the same he's always was.

Bradley is playing about the same, his efficiency has dropped.

The only real notable change with Rondo off has been with Terry's play lately, and his minutes are not any different than previously.

Pierce is playing better, though I think Rondo is irrelevant to it.

Bass? I don't think it has anything to do with Rondo, or Sully for that matter.

Green? Could go either way, but he had a good January, so don't think Rondo has much to do with it. That said, I'd wager that Green has been getting easier looks in transition than previously.

  For whatever reason the team's playing with more focus and energy since Rondo went down. That's translated to better defense, not better offense. Their numbers aren't going to be much better.

I haven't noticed any changes defensively from an individual standpoint. Bass maybe, but he was already picking up his defense before Sully went down... his effort at least.

So while overall we may be playing better defense, I don't think it has much to do with our players playing any different than previously.

  More effort, more focus, more aggressiveness. Probably better help defense, possibly getting back quicker. Nothing major, but there wasn't really anything major that was wrong with us. We've been very streaky, meaning we were capable of playing well but haven't done it consistently. That's why I was less pessimistic abut our chances than many here. Take the team the way it's playing now and put it in the playoffs with a healthy Rondo and they'd be capable of beating anyone.

The second unit has been doing this quite consistently for a while now though. Pierce comes and goes just the same, KG is always elite, Bradley is always on... so I really don't see much of a change.

The only one I can point to is Bass, but once again I have to take note that he was already beginning to put more effort this year, and I think this had more to do with the wakeup call of when Sully was inserted into the starting line-up which seemed to light a fire under him.

We're missing Sully though, who had been very solid to very good as of late defensively for that second unit thought.

The only change has been the absence of Rondo, but you already now my opinion on his defensive style, so no need to rehash.

During our struggles, it was the second unit that kept us in games or gave us a chance to win for the most part, and what I'm seeing now is more of a continuation of the same.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 05, 2013, 06:39:27 PM
I'm not confused.  Rondo is a talented guy, but he's overrated over here.  The team seems to enjoy playing without him and we have some scorers who can handle their own without Rondo.  The injury also resolves some of the roster conflicts we were dealing with. 

The two key players on this team have always been KG and Pierce.  It's not like we're going to win a title now, but we weren't going to win a title before anyways.  We'll remain a capable little .500 team unless we land an impact big.  Then... we could make a run with or without Rondo. 
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 05, 2013, 07:01:10 PM
It's really not all that complicated when you think about it.  Let me break it down for you.

Rondo was having his best season ever... averaging 13.7 points, 11 assists in 37 minutes.  Pretty impressive.  He's arguably responsible for 35.7 points.   But his presence didn't leave a ton of minutes left for the other 4 guards on this team.

We can skip talking about Bradley, because Bradley's minutes aren't really effected.  He just slides over the PG where he belongs (he's too small to play SG).

Leading up to the injury, Barbosa was getting like 5 minutes a night when he played... and getting DNP after DNP.  In December, Barbosa averaged 1 point in 6 minutes per game... if he played at all.

Barbosa's last 4 games:  10.5 points 2.7 assists 23.25 minutes


Terry's last 4 games:  12.5 points, 4 assists in 28.25 minutes

Lee's last 4 games:  8.5 points, 3 assists in 30 minutes a night.  About 7 minutes more than he usually plays.

Pierce is averaging 6.2 assists in the last 4 games.

Jeff Green is averaging 13.5 points in the last 4 games now that he gets to hold the basketball.

So basically you have guys like Barbosa (who would be getting DNP's) getting quality minutes.  You got barbosa getting a couple assists, you got Terry getting a couple more assists, you got Lee getting a couple more assists and you got Pierce getting a couple more assists.  Barbosa is scoring more buckets, Lee is scoring more buckets and Terry is scoring more buckets.  At the end of the day, we have guys who are filling up the stats that Rondo usually gets.  It's spread around more.  The team is moving the ball more.  Our best defensive guards are starting in the back court.  We aren't starting a 6'2 180 pound player at SG.  JEff Green gets to have a bigger role.  The team doesn't have to worry about Rondo being a liability without the basketball.   Losing Rondo hurts the team, but what we're gaining by him being out kinda evens  it out.  We'll continue being .500.

Welcome to the Freedom Offense.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 05, 2013, 07:05:12 PM
I'm not confused.  Rondo is a talented guy, but he's overrated over here.  The team seems to enjoy playing without him and we have some scorers who can handle their own without Rondo.  The injury also resolves some of the roster conflicts we were dealing with. 

The two key players on this team have always been KG and Pierce.  It's not like we're going to win a title now, but we weren't going to win a title before anyways.  We'll remain a capable little .500 team unless we land an impact big.  Then... we could make a run with or without Rondo.

I agree with pretty much everything here.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: Greenback on February 05, 2013, 07:29:30 PM
Has anyone seen the article by Chris Frosberg that states: 

"Boston's most successful five-man unit during this four-game stretch has been Leandro Barbosa, Jason Terry, Paul Pierce, Jeff Green, and Jason Collins.

According to lineup data logged by NBA.com, that unit has the best overall plus/minus of any Boston unit over the last four games checking in at plus-16 in 12 minutes of floor time (which doesn't sound like a lot, but that's the fourth most used lineup in that span).

Sure, plus/minus isn't the only barometer for quality play, but it's hard to argue with the bottom line. That five-man unit shot 80 percent both overall (16 of 20) and beyond the 3-point arc (4 of 5) and generated 45 points in those 12 minutes. That output is crazy enough on its own, but even more so when you consider that unit turned the ball over eight times as well. The five-man unit owned a ridiculous 148.6 offensive rating during its floor time (only somewhat diminished by a 103.3 defensive rating, even as opponents shot a mere 37 percent). "

Here's the link:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701996/lineup-watch-whats-working


Still confused? He backs it up with statistics and small sample sizes... :)
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BballTim on February 05, 2013, 07:31:23 PM
I'm not confused.  Rondo is a talented guy, but he's overrated over here.  The team seems to enjoy playing without him and we have some scorers who can handle their own without Rondo.  The injury also resolves some of the roster conflicts we were dealing with. 

The two key players on this team have always been KG and Pierce.  It's not like we're going to win a title now, but we weren't going to win a title before anyways.  We'll remain a capable little .500 team unless we land an impact big.  Then... we could make a run with or without Rondo.

  When you say "key players" it depends on whether your goal is to be respectable or a contender. It's true that, with the bigs on the roster, the wheels fall off without KG. But I think out of the big three if PP/RR play good but not great and KG plays great we won't get far. If KG/RR play good but not great and PP plays great we can go far, and if KG/PP are good and Rondo's great we can go far. The problem with PP is that he can play great ball but he can't sustain it for any length of time.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BballTim on February 05, 2013, 07:34:00 PM
It's really not all that complicated when you think about it.  Let me break it down for you.

Rondo was having his best season ever... averaging 13.7 points, 11 assists in 37 minutes.  Pretty impressive.  He's arguably responsible for 35.7 points.   But his presence didn't leave a ton of minutes left for the other 4 guards on this team.

We can skip talking about Bradley, because Bradley's minutes aren't really effected.  He just slides over the PG where he belongs (he's too small to play SG).

Leading up to the injury, Barbosa was getting like 5 minutes a night when he played... and getting DNP after DNP.  In December, Barbosa averaged 1 point in 6 minutes per game... if he played at all.

Barbosa's last 4 games:  10.5 points 2.7 assists 23.25 minutes


Terry's last 4 games:  12.5 points, 4 assists in 28.25 minutes

Lee's last 4 games:  8.5 points, 3 assists in 30 minutes a night.  About 7 minutes more than he usually plays.

Pierce is averaging 6.2 assists in the last 4 games.

Jeff Green is averaging 13.5 points in the last 4 games now that he gets to hold the basketball.

So basically you have guys like Barbosa (who would be getting DNP's) getting quality minutes.  You got barbosa getting a couple assists, you got Terry getting a couple more assists, you got Lee getting a couple more assists and you got Pierce getting a couple more assists.  Barbosa is scoring more buckets, Lee is scoring more buckets and Terry is scoring more buckets.  At the end of the day, we have guys who are filling up the stats that Rondo usually gets.  It's spread around more.  The team is moving the ball more.  Our best defensive guards are starting in the back court.  We aren't starting a 6'2 180 pound player at SG.  JEff Green gets to have a bigger role.  The team doesn't have to worry about Rondo being a liability without the basketball.   Losing Rondo hurts the team, but what we're gaining by him being out kinda evens  it out.  We'll continue being .500.

Welcome to the Freedom Offense.

  Again, when we get into a playoff series against a top defensive team we can put your analysis to the test.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BballTim on February 05, 2013, 07:40:03 PM
Has anyone seen the article by Chris Frosberg that states: 

"Boston's most successful five-man unit during this four-game stretch has been Leandro Barbosa, Jason Terry, Paul Pierce, Jeff Green, and Jason Collins.

According to lineup data logged by NBA.com, that unit has the best overall plus/minus of any Boston unit over the last four games checking in at plus-16 in 12 minutes of floor time (which doesn't sound like a lot, but that's the fourth most used lineup in that span).

Sure, plus/minus isn't the only barometer for quality play, but it's hard to argue with the bottom line. That five-man unit shot 80 percent both overall (16 of 20) and beyond the 3-point arc (4 of 5) and generated 45 points in those 12 minutes. That output is crazy enough on its own, but even more so when you consider that unit turned the ball over eight times as well. The five-man unit owned a ridiculous 148.6 offensive rating during its floor time (only somewhat diminished by a 103.3 defensive rating, even as opponents shot a mere 37 percent). "

Here's the link:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701996/lineup-watch-whats-working


Still confused? He backs it up with statistics and small sample sizes... :)

  Sounds like proof that we don't need KG.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 05, 2013, 07:47:01 PM
Some teams simply play better when faced with adversity.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 05, 2013, 07:51:21 PM
Has anyone seen the article by Chris Frosberg that states: 

"Boston's most successful five-man unit during this four-game stretch has been Leandro Barbosa, Jason Terry, Paul Pierce, Jeff Green, and Jason Collins.

According to lineup data logged by NBA.com, that unit has the best overall plus/minus of any Boston unit over the last four games checking in at plus-16 in 12 minutes of floor time (which doesn't sound like a lot, but that's the fourth most used lineup in that span).

Sure, plus/minus isn't the only barometer for quality play, but it's hard to argue with the bottom line. That five-man unit shot 80 percent both overall (16 of 20) and beyond the 3-point arc (4 of 5) and generated 45 points in those 12 minutes. That output is crazy enough on its own, but even more so when you consider that unit turned the ball over eight times as well. The five-man unit owned a ridiculous 148.6 offensive rating during its floor time (only somewhat diminished by a 103.3 defensive rating, even as opponents shot a mere 37 percent). "

Here's the link:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701996/lineup-watch-whats-working


Still confused? He backs it up with statistics and small sample sizes... :)

  Sounds like proof that we don't need KG.

STATISTICS ARE OVERRATED.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 06, 2013, 01:25:58 PM
It's really not all that complicated when you think about it.  Let me break it down for you.

Rondo was having his best season ever... averaging 13.7 points, 11 assists in 37 minutes.  Pretty impressive.  He's arguably responsible for 35.7 points.   But his presence didn't leave a ton of minutes left for the other 4 guards on this team.

We can skip talking about Bradley, because Bradley's minutes aren't really effected.  He just slides over the PG where he belongs (he's too small to play SG).

Leading up to the injury, Barbosa was getting like 5 minutes a night when he played... and getting DNP after DNP.  In December, Barbosa averaged 1 point in 6 minutes per game... if he played at all.

Barbosa's last 4 games:  10.5 points 2.7 assists 23.25 minutes


Terry's last 4 games:  12.5 points, 4 assists in 28.25 minutes

Lee's last 4 games:  8.5 points, 3 assists in 30 minutes a night.  About 7 minutes more than he usually plays.

Pierce is averaging 6.2 assists in the last 4 games.

Jeff Green is averaging 13.5 points in the last 4 games now that he gets to hold the basketball.

So basically you have guys like Barbosa (who would be getting DNP's) getting quality minutes.  You got barbosa getting a couple assists, you got Terry getting a couple more assists, you got Lee getting a couple more assists and you got Pierce getting a couple more assists.  Barbosa is scoring more buckets, Lee is scoring more buckets and Terry is scoring more buckets.  At the end of the day, we have guys who are filling up the stats that Rondo usually gets.  It's spread around more.  The team is moving the ball more.  Our best defensive guards are starting in the back court.  We aren't starting a 6'2 180 pound player at SG.  JEff Green gets to have a bigger role.  The team doesn't have to worry about Rondo being a liability without the basketball.   Losing Rondo hurts the team, but what we're gaining by him being out kinda evens  it out.  We'll continue being .500.

Welcome to the Freedom Offense.

  Again, when we get into a playoff series against a top defensive team we can put your analysis to the test.
Why would the playoffs be any different?  Rondo's regular season production this year is pretty darn close to his playoff numbers.. he just was getting an extra 5 minutes a night.
Title: Re: Thoroughly Confused.
Post by: BballTim on February 06, 2013, 02:58:05 PM
It's really not all that complicated when you think about it.  Let me break it down for you.

Rondo was having his best season ever... averaging 13.7 points, 11 assists in 37 minutes.  Pretty impressive.  He's arguably responsible for 35.7 points.   But his presence didn't leave a ton of minutes left for the other 4 guards on this team.

We can skip talking about Bradley, because Bradley's minutes aren't really effected.  He just slides over the PG where he belongs (he's too small to play SG).

Leading up to the injury, Barbosa was getting like 5 minutes a night when he played... and getting DNP after DNP.  In December, Barbosa averaged 1 point in 6 minutes per game... if he played at all.

Barbosa's last 4 games:  10.5 points 2.7 assists 23.25 minutes


Terry's last 4 games:  12.5 points, 4 assists in 28.25 minutes

Lee's last 4 games:  8.5 points, 3 assists in 30 minutes a night.  About 7 minutes more than he usually plays.

Pierce is averaging 6.2 assists in the last 4 games.

Jeff Green is averaging 13.5 points in the last 4 games now that he gets to hold the basketball.

So basically you have guys like Barbosa (who would be getting DNP's) getting quality minutes.  You got barbosa getting a couple assists, you got Terry getting a couple more assists, you got Lee getting a couple more assists and you got Pierce getting a couple more assists.  Barbosa is scoring more buckets, Lee is scoring more buckets and Terry is scoring more buckets.  At the end of the day, we have guys who are filling up the stats that Rondo usually gets.  It's spread around more.  The team is moving the ball more.  Our best defensive guards are starting in the back court.  We aren't starting a 6'2 180 pound player at SG.  JEff Green gets to have a bigger role.  The team doesn't have to worry about Rondo being a liability without the basketball.   Losing Rondo hurts the team, but what we're gaining by him being out kinda evens  it out.  We'll continue being .500.

Welcome to the Freedom Offense.

  Again, when we get into a playoff series against a top defensive team we can put your analysis to the test.
Why would the playoffs be any different?  Rondo's regular season production this year is pretty darn close to his playoff numbers.. he just was getting an extra 5 minutes a night.

  Why do teams that rely on balanced offense without players who can dominate games tend to wither in the playoffs against tougher opponents? I'll leave that to you to figure out when it happens. And for all your posts about how Rondo isn't much better in the playoffs than the regular season, the fact that he's better at all is fairly impressive.