CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rutzan on February 03, 2013, 09:54:46 PM
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love AB, his defense, his energy and his intensity...and...at the same time...he has gotten a pass...especially at celtic blog...where green, bass, terry, lee and even rondo and pierce have gone under the hot, vitriolic and scathing knife that is celtic blog...so beside defense where does AB make his mark and become an impact player...which i think he will and i hope he will...he avg's 1.5 reb/gm and 1.0 assts/gm while shooting 34.6% from 3-pt land for his career...so...that really only leaves scoring/slashing...he is taking 8.5 shots per game while shooting a low 40.2%...i think he will need to take and make more shots to become an impact player...but...shots will be hard to come by with terry, lee and barbosa...interesting note...barbosa took 10 shots today...2nd to pierce...not complaining...so..do the celtics need to call ab's number more...or...run more?
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You don't need every player to score. Two guys can be defensive guys and the other three run the offense. He hits the corner three well enough that you can't just leave him.
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His job is to make an impact on defense and be respectable on offense.
He has recently come back from injury.
He has space for growth.
As far as I can see, he is playing the role that he is capable and asked to play.
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Defensively, he is an impact player.
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He already is an impact player on D.
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I'm pretty sure Bradley won't become considerably "more impact" than he is already.
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I reject your premise. He's already making a pretty large impact.
He's a role player, sure, but one that is vital to the success of this team moving forward.
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He's a Tony Allen with less defensive upside and better shooting motion. Quality rotation player at worst and at best, so, he's an impact player probably.
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love AB, his defense, his energy and his intensity...and...at the same time...he has gotten a pass...especially at celtic blog...where green, bass, terry, lee and even rondo and pierce have gone under the hot, vitriolic and scathing knife that is celtic blog...so beside defense where does AB make his mark and become an impact player...which i think he will and i hope he will...he avg's 1.5 reb/gm and 1.0 assts/gm while shooting 34.6% from 3-pt land for his career...so...that really only leaves scoring/slashing...he is taking 8.5 shots per game while shooting a low 40.2%...i think he will need to take and make more shots to become an impact player...but...shots will be hard to come by with terry, lee and barbosa...interesting note...barbosa took 10 shots today...2nd to pierce...not complaining...so..do the celtics need to call ab's number more...or...run more?
The dude just turned 22 this season and is just now back playing after about as long an injury break as Green had. (E.g., he's been back for 16 games now and has shot .379 from the 3 over the past 10 of those games.) Sure, his shooting numbers are down right now, but he had great averages last year (.498 FG% and .407 3PT%) in his first real year playing in the NBA.
I don't expect him to ever be a team's first or second offensive option, but already at age 21 he was a very efficient shooter for a guard.
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He's a Tony Allen with less defensive upside and better shooting motion. Quality rotation player at worst and at best, so, he's an impact player probably.
Less defensive upside? I can't really agree with that. Are you basing that just on the fact that he's an inch or two shorter than TA? Bradley is a much smarter player, for starters. I think it's fair to say his upside is better on both ends of the floor.
I think Bradley's ceiling is as the best guard defender in the game with an offensive game pretty similar to Courtney Lee -- 12-14 pts a night on 45 / 40 / 80 shooting.
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Uhhhhh he's made an impact...his late game d on Jamal Crawford was key just yesterday. At the same time he will miss rondo probably more than anybody on offense
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He's already an impact player on defense.
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He's a Tony Allen with less defensive upside and better shooting motion. Quality rotation player at worst and at best, so, he's an impact player probably.
Less defensive upside? I can't really agree with that. Are you basing that just on the fact that he's an inch or two shorter than TA? Bradley is a much smarter player, for starters. I think it's fair to say his upside is better on both ends of the floor.
I think Bradley's ceiling is as the best guard defender in the game with an offensive game pretty similar to Courtney Lee -- 12-14 pts a night on 45 / 40 / 80 shooting.
The advantage Allen has over Bradley is versatility. Avery's a very good defender but Tony's bigger and stronger and can cover more players effectively.
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He's a Tony Allen with less defensive upside and better shooting motion. Quality rotation player at worst and at best, so, he's an impact player probably.
Less defensive upside? I can't really agree with that. Are you basing that just on the fact that he's an inch or two shorter than TA? Bradley is a much smarter player, for starters. I think it's fair to say his upside is better on both ends of the floor.
I think Bradley's ceiling is as the best guard defender in the game with an offensive game pretty similar to Courtney Lee -- 12-14 pts a night on 45 / 40 / 80 shooting.
The advantage Allen has over Bradley is versatility. Avery's a very good defender but Tony's bigger and stronger and can cover more players effectively.
Yeah, I get that. TA can perhaps cover 3 positions (both guard spots and SF) while Avery can really only cover guards.
But I don't think that's the same as saying that Bradley doesn't have more "upside" than TA, even defensively. TA is a very good defender, but he doesn't change the game the way that Bradley does. Bradley seems to have an almost KG-like effect on team defense. I don't remember TA ever doing that.
Also you can't underestimate the importance of the fact that Bradley is a smart basketball player; nobody has ever accused TA of being particularly smart (on the court).
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He's a Tony Allen with less defensive upside and better shooting motion. Quality rotation player at worst and at best, so, he's an impact player probably.
Less defensive upside? I can't really agree with that. Are you basing that just on the fact that he's an inch or two shorter than TA? Bradley is a much smarter player, for starters. I think it's fair to say his upside is better on both ends of the floor.
I think Bradley's ceiling is as the best guard defender in the game with an offensive game pretty similar to Courtney Lee -- 12-14 pts a night on 45 / 40 / 80 shooting.
The advantage Allen has over Bradley is versatility. Avery's a very good defender but Tony's bigger and stronger and can cover more players effectively.
Yeah, I get that. TA can perhaps cover 3 positions (both guard spots and SF) while Avery can really only cover guards.
But I don't think that's the same as saying that Bradley doesn't have more "upside" than TA, even defensively. TA is a very good defender, but he doesn't change the game the way that Bradley does. Bradley seems to have an almost KG-like effect on team defense. I don't remember TA ever doing that.
Also you can't underestimate the importance of the fact that Bradley is a smart basketball player; nobody has ever accused TA of being particularly smart (on the court).
I remember the 2010 playoffs where TA made a big defensive impact against the Heat by guarding Wade, the Cavs by guarding James and the Lakers by guarding Kobe. Bradley generally doesn't guard whoever the best scorer is on the other team, he guards the pg.
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He's a Tony Allen with less defensive upside and better shooting motion. Quality rotation player at worst and at best, so, he's an impact player probably.
Less defensive upside? I can't really agree with that. Are you basing that just on the fact that he's an inch or two shorter than TA? Bradley is a much smarter player, for starters. I think it's fair to say his upside is better on both ends of the floor.
I think Bradley's ceiling is as the best guard defender in the game with an offensive game pretty similar to Courtney Lee -- 12-14 pts a night on 45 / 40 / 80 shooting.
The advantage Allen has over Bradley is versatility. Avery's a very good defender but Tony's bigger and stronger and can cover more players effectively.
Yeah, I get that. TA can perhaps cover 3 positions (both guard spots and SF) while Avery can really only cover guards.
But I don't think that's the same as saying that Bradley doesn't have more "upside" than TA, even defensively. TA is a very good defender, but he doesn't change the game the way that Bradley does. Bradley seems to have an almost KG-like effect on team defense. I don't remember TA ever doing that.
Also you can't underestimate the importance of the fact that Bradley is a smart basketball player; nobody has ever accused TA of being particularly smart (on the court).
I remember the 2010 playoffs where TA made a big defensive impact against the Heat by guarding Wade, the Cavs by guarding James and the Lakers by guarding Kobe. Bradley generally doesn't guard whoever the best scorer is on the other team, he guards the pg.
Bradley is perhaps the best defender ever against Wade. Also, this is the age of the pg, so I have no problem with him guarding the likes of Irving, Westbrook, CP3, etc...
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He's a Tony Allen with less defensive upside and better shooting motion. Quality rotation player at worst and at best, so, he's an impact player probably.
Less defensive upside? I can't really agree with that. Are you basing that just on the fact that he's an inch or two shorter than TA? Bradley is a much smarter player, for starters. I think it's fair to say his upside is better on both ends of the floor.
I think Bradley's ceiling is as the best guard defender in the game with an offensive game pretty similar to Courtney Lee -- 12-14 pts a night on 45 / 40 / 80 shooting.
The advantage Allen has over Bradley is versatility. Avery's a very good defender but Tony's bigger and stronger and can cover more players effectively.
Yeah, I get that. TA can perhaps cover 3 positions (both guard spots and SF) while Avery can really only cover guards.
But I don't think that's the same as saying that Bradley doesn't have more "upside" than TA, even defensively. TA is a very good defender, but he doesn't change the game the way that Bradley does. Bradley seems to have an almost KG-like effect on team defense. I don't remember TA ever doing that.
Also you can't underestimate the importance of the fact that Bradley is a smart basketball player; nobody has ever accused TA of being particularly smart (on the court).
I remember the 2010 playoffs where TA made a big defensive impact against the Heat by guarding Wade, the Cavs by guarding James and the Lakers by guarding Kobe. Bradley generally doesn't guard whoever the best scorer is on the other team, he guards the pg.
Bradley is perhaps the best defender ever against Wade. Also, this is the age of the pg, so I have no problem with him guarding the likes of Irving, Westbrook, CP3, etc...
Tony Allen was just as good on wade...I do think Avery is smarter then ta ever was here and doesn't get the credit for his d on taller 2s ala James harden and Joe Johnson and and I expect to see him on Kobe coming up...he doesn't just chase pgs
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When he gets back to being a somewhat effective offensive player.
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I think the answer to your question is probably "now"
His offensive usage will be much higher for the rest of the spring than it was before. If he takes 4-5 three pointers every night from here on and makes .375 or better, I'll say he's arrived.
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In his time in an NBA rotation, AB shot 40/50/80%. This season, coming off operations to BOTH shoulders, his accuracy is down. Is that really all that surprising?
I don't think Bradley will be a career 50/40% shooter, because there are very guards who have been in league history, but I suspect he can be somewhere close to that as he gets more experience and understands his strong spots on the floor.
This season Bradley is a disaster with perimeter shooting from the middle of the court (4-27). From the corners, he's a respectable 25-53 with both his twos and threes. He's also struggling at the rim this year at 45% after hitting 64% there last year, not getting as many back door layups.
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In his time in an NBA rotation, AB shot 40/50/80%. This season, coming off operations to BOTH shoulders, his accuracy is down. Is that really all that surprising?
I don't think Bradley will be a career 50/40% shooter, because there are very guards who have been in league history, but I suspect he can be somewhere close to that as he gets more experience and understands his strong spots on the floor.
This season Bradley is a disaster with perimeter shooting from the middle of the court (4-27). From the corners, he's a respectable 25-53 with both his twos and threes. He's also struggling at the rim this year at 45% after hitting 64% there last year, not getting as many back door layups.
The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
I do think he's better that the current numbers indicate, but I don't think he'll be anything more than 10 ppg player who mostly scores on wide open shots, cuts, and broken defensive assignments.
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i think everyone knows he is a great defensive player and is young with a lot of upside...and...at the same time...i do not think he wants to be labeled a one-trick pony...when you think of great def players you think of russell, mchale, bobby jones, rodman, mutumbo, ben wallace...then...you have players like michael cooper, joe dumars, marcus camby,reggie evans, tony allen...i'm sure i'm missing many...is ab dpoy candidate...maybe...i think we have already seen he is not a ft pg...better as a sg or combo guard...not really a strong rebounder...to be called a more complete guard...i think it has to come from more scoring...which comes back to how does he score more...do the c's need to call his number more...running the ball would obviously help...also...right now...there is a minutes crunch...i'm sure his numbers would increase with starter minutes...
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i think everyone knows he is a great defensive player and is young with a lot of upside...and...at the same time...i do not think he wants to be labeled a one-trick pony...when you think of great def players you think of russell, mchale, bobby jones, rodman, mutumbo, ben wallace...then...you have players like michael cooper, joe dumars, marcus camby,reggie evans, tony allen...i'm sure i'm missing many...is ab dpoy candidate...maybe...i think we have already seen he is not a ft pg...better as a sg or combo guard...not really a strong rebounder...to be called a more complete guard...i think it has to come from more scoring...which comes back to how does he score more...do the c's need to call his number more...running the ball would obviously help...also...right now...there is a minutes crunch...i'm sure his numbers would increase with starter minutes...
I'm sure he "doesn't want to" be labeled a one-trick pony. I reckon Rondo also doesn't want to be a 60-odd percent FT shooter. Except that's not the way it works :-D
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In his time in an NBA rotation, AB shot 40/50/80%. This season, coming off operations to BOTH shoulders, his accuracy is down. Is that really all that surprising?
I don't think Bradley will be a career 50/40% shooter, because there are very guards who have been in league history, but I suspect he can be somewhere close to that as he gets more experience and understands his strong spots on the floor.
This season Bradley is a disaster with perimeter shooting from the middle of the court (4-27). From the corners, he's a respectable 25-53 with both his twos and threes. He's also struggling at the rim this year at 45% after hitting 64% there last year, not getting as many back door layups.
The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
I do think he's better that the current numbers indicate, but I don't think he'll be anything more than 10 ppg player who mostly scores on wide open shots, cuts, and broken defensive assignments.
I'm fine with his threes, they're in transition or off of feeds to the corner shot and have a better eFG% than his roughly 43% 2 point FG%.
Just needs to make more shots period.
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so...the real question is...was it fool's gold when ab was scoring 16-18 pts/gm in that late-season run last yr...is that something he is capable of...or...is that asking too much...is that too much pressure...is that something he grows into...
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He's a Tony Allen with less defensive upside and better shooting motion. Quality rotation player at worst and at best, so, he's an impact player probably.
Less defensive upside? I can't really agree with that. Are you basing that just on the fact that he's an inch or two shorter than TA? Bradley is a much smarter player, for starters. I think it's fair to say his upside is better on both ends of the floor.
I think Bradley's ceiling is as the best guard defender in the game with an offensive game pretty similar to Courtney Lee -- 12-14 pts a night on 45 / 40 / 80 shooting.
If Avery Bradley ever has a season where he shoots 45 from the floor and 40 from three he should instantly become president of the United States.
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
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In his time in an NBA rotation, AB shot 40/50/80%. This season, coming off operations to BOTH shoulders, his accuracy is down. Is that really all that surprising?
I don't think Bradley will be a career 50/40% shooter, because there are very guards who have been in league history, but I suspect he can be somewhere close to that as he gets more experience and understands his strong spots on the floor.
This season Bradley is a disaster with perimeter shooting from the middle of the court (4-27). From the corners, he's a respectable 25-53 with both his twos and threes. He's also struggling at the rim this year at 45% after hitting 64% there last year, not getting as many back door layups.
The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
I do think he's better that the current numbers indicate, but I don't think he'll be anything more than 10 ppg player who mostly scores on wide open shots, cuts, and broken defensive assignments.
I'm think Bradley has microwave potential. Down the road a bit when he's comfortable he's going to have games where he suddenly hits 3 and 4 short-range jumpers in a row in the way Vinnie the Microwave Johnson used to....
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
I totally agree. He needs to take these shots and look for them in game to get used to it.
And this discussion is fine and all, but I hope we aren't saying Avery hasn't made an impact because he shoots 3 three pointers a game and has a 42 % eFG? Right?
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
I totally agree. He needs to take these shots and look for them in game to get used to it.
And this discussion is fine and all, but I hope we aren't saying Avery hasn't made an impact because he shoots 3 three pointers a game and has a 42 % eFG? Right?
Well, he's taking them. It's mostly a brick fest. "Developing as a threat" is all fine and dandy, except that you don't shoot yourself into being a threat, that's putting the cart before the horse.
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
I totally agree. He needs to take these shots and look for them in game to get used to it.
And this discussion is fine and all, but I hope we aren't saying Avery hasn't made an impact because he shoots 3 three pointers a game and has a 42 % eFG? Right?
Well, he's taking them. It's mostly a brick fest. "Developing as a threat" is all fine and dandy, except that you don't shoot yourself into being a threat, that's putting the cart before the horse.
I'm not sure what you're saying here?
It seems like Bradley is capable as a shooter when he's just shooting around or in drills. He needs to take them in the game and improve there. There seems to be a perhaps confidence related gap.
Look at any prospect report for him when he was being drafted. Besides athleticism, they basically all said his next asset was his jump shot; pulling up, spot up, midrange:
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/avery-bradley
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Avery-Bradley-5285/
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
I totally agree. He needs to take these shots and look for them in game to get used to it.
And this discussion is fine and all, but I hope we aren't saying Avery hasn't made an impact because he shoots 3 three pointers a game and has a 42 % eFG? Right?
Well, he's taking them. It's mostly a brick fest. "Developing as a threat" is all fine and dandy, except that you don't shoot yourself into being a threat, that's putting the cart before the horse.
I'm not sure what you're saying here?
It seems like Bradley is capable as a shooter when he's just shooting around. He needs to take them in the game and improve there. There seems to be a perhaps confidence related gap.
Look at any prospect report for him when he was being drafted. Besides athleticism, they basically all said his next asset was his jump shot:
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/avery-bradley
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Avery-Bradley-5285/
My point is quite clear: he isn't shooting very well, because his shot selection is poor. He needs to stop jacking shots that are not in his arsenal (said arsenal mostly consists of mid-range jumpers and corner threes) -- not to try break the rim in order to "improve".
Also, the overall board populace should stop expecting that Bradley will become an "impact" player who's going to score 18 ppg on 50% shooting and be a perennial DPOY candidate. It's called "tempering expectations".
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
I totally agree. He needs to take these shots and look for them in game to get used to it.
And this discussion is fine and all, but I hope we aren't saying Avery hasn't made an impact because he shoots 3 three pointers a game and has a 42 % eFG? Right?
Well, he's taking them. It's mostly a brick fest. "Developing as a threat" is all fine and dandy, except that you don't shoot yourself into being a threat, that's putting the cart before the horse.
I'm not sure what you're saying here?
It seems like Bradley is capable as a shooter when he's just shooting around. He needs to take them in the game and improve there. There seems to be a perhaps confidence related gap.
Look at any prospect report for him when he was being drafted. Besides athleticism, they basically all said his next asset was his jump shot:
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/avery-bradley
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Avery-Bradley-5285/
My point is quite clear: he isn't shooting very well, because his shot selection is poor. He needs to stop jacking shots that are not in his arsenal (said arsenal mostly consists of mid-range jumpers and corner threes) -- not to try break the rim in order to "improve".
Also, the overall board populace should stop expecting that Bradley will become an "impact" player who's going to score 18 ppg on 50% shooting and be a perennial DPOY candidate. It's called "tempering expectations".
I would love to see what bad shots he is taking. Are you saying he takes JR Smith like size up where he pulls up and fades away?
He takes open midrange shots and threes from kick outs.
I have no idea what you are talking about with "bad shot selection".
And scoring aside, what you're saying about "impact" is my point earlier, he plays some of the very best perimeter defense in the league. When he plays our defense somehow magically becomes elite again. THAT is impact.
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Would anyone ask this question if he was scoring 25 a game on offense but playing below average defense?
Everyone can agree that the Celtics need to be a great defensive team to contend but no one can look at an individual's game objectively without bringing scoring statistics into the conversation.
Bradley's defense is as good as any Celtic's offense on the team and offensively he is not that much of a libility when paired with the right players.
I'd say that's pretty impactful.
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Bradley is what he is, he's not going to change. He's an excellent defender with amazing hustle, but he is not a scorer or a ball handler, and he will never be.
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
I totally agree. He needs to take these shots and look for them in game to get used to it.
And this discussion is fine and all, but I hope we aren't saying Avery hasn't made an impact because he shoots 3 three pointers a game and has a 42 % eFG? Right?
Well, he's taking them. It's mostly a brick fest. "Developing as a threat" is all fine and dandy, except that you don't shoot yourself into being a threat, that's putting the cart before the horse.
I'm not sure what you're saying here?
It seems like Bradley is capable as a shooter when he's just shooting around. He needs to take them in the game and improve there. There seems to be a perhaps confidence related gap.
Look at any prospect report for him when he was being drafted. Besides athleticism, they basically all said his next asset was his jump shot:
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/avery-bradley
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Avery-Bradley-5285/
My point is quite clear: he isn't shooting very well, because his shot selection is poor. He needs to stop jacking shots that are not in his arsenal (said arsenal mostly consists of mid-range jumpers and corner threes) -- not to try break the rim in order to "improve".
Also, the overall board populace should stop expecting that Bradley will become an "impact" player who's going to score 18 ppg on 50% shooting and be a perennial DPOY candidate. It's called "tempering expectations".
I don't think Bradley can do much about his shot selection while Rondo is out. He is not going to be able to get high percentage attempts regularly enough + with the ball-handling duties Doc is giving Bradley, Bradley is going to have to take a much larger number of low to medium percentage shot attempts.
Just the way it's going to be until Rondo comes back next season.
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I really hate how they're trying to make Bradley into a PG. Terry, Barbosa, and Lee should all be handling the ball before Bradley does.
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I would love to see what bad shots he is taking. Are you saying he takes JR Smith like size up where he pulls up and fades away?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bradlav01/shooting/2013/
His efficiency at the rim has distinctly dropped (.600 last season, .450 this season). It's quite evident that he isn't much of a threat when we're not feeding him for wide-open dunks.
With him, as with Bass, the drop in efficiency comes clearly from the fact that they're trying to play outside of their skill set. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it's a misguided attempt to "build" on last year's success.
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
I totally agree. He needs to take these shots and look for them in game to get used to it.
And this discussion is fine and all, but I hope we aren't saying Avery hasn't made an impact because he shoots 3 three pointers a game and has a 42 % eFG? Right?
Well, he's taking them. It's mostly a brick fest. "Developing as a threat" is all fine and dandy, except that you don't shoot yourself into being a threat, that's putting the cart before the horse.
I don't think that's the case. He's got too small a sample size to draw any reasonable conclusions, the first few games he was back and the game or two after his rib injury probably constitute 1/4 to 1/3 of his total attempts.
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
I totally agree. He needs to take these shots and look for them in game to get used to it.
And this discussion is fine and all, but I hope we aren't saying Avery hasn't made an impact because he shoots 3 three pointers a game and has a 42 % eFG? Right?
Well, he's taking them. It's mostly a brick fest. "Developing as a threat" is all fine and dandy, except that you don't shoot yourself into being a threat, that's putting the cart before the horse.
I don't think that's the case. He's got too small a sample size to draw any reasonable conclusions, the first few games he was back and the game or two after his rib injury probably constitute 1/4 to 1/3 of his total attempts.
So what _is_ the case then?
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He's a Tony Allen with less defensive upside and better shooting motion. Quality rotation player at worst and at best, so, he's an impact player probably.
Less defensive upside? I can't really agree with that. Are you basing that just on the fact that he's an inch or two shorter than TA? Bradley is a much smarter player, for starters. I think it's fair to say his upside is better on both ends of the floor.
I think Bradley's ceiling is as the best guard defender in the game with an offensive game pretty similar to Courtney Lee -- 12-14 pts a night on 45 / 40 / 80 shooting.
The advantage Allen has over Bradley is versatility. Avery's a very good defender but Tony's bigger and stronger and can cover more players effectively.
Yeah, I get that. TA can perhaps cover 3 positions (both guard spots and SF) while Avery can really only cover guards.
But I don't think that's the same as saying that Bradley doesn't have more "upside" than TA, even defensively. TA is a very good defender, but he doesn't change the game the way that Bradley does. Bradley seems to have an almost KG-like effect on team defense. I don't remember TA ever doing that.
Also you can't underestimate the importance of the fact that Bradley is a smart basketball player; nobody has ever accused TA of being particularly smart (on the court).
I remember the 2010 playoffs where TA made a big defensive impact against the Heat by guarding Wade, the Cavs by guarding James and the Lakers by guarding Kobe. Bradley generally doesn't guard whoever the best scorer is on the other team, he guards the pg.
Bradley is perhaps the best defender ever against Wade. Also, this is the age of the pg, so I have no problem with him guarding the likes of Irving, Westbrook, CP3, etc...
Tony Allen was just as good on wade...I do think Avery is smarter then ta ever was here and doesn't get the credit for his d on taller 2s ala James harden and Joe Johnson and and I expect to see him on Kobe coming up...he doesn't just chase pgs
Yeah, I too give the edge to Allen as a defender. As has already been stated, Bradley can really only guard PG's and smallish 2 guards. He would have trouble against anyone with size that has a post game (see Joe Johnson, Kobe).
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
I totally agree. He needs to take these shots and look for them in game to get used to it.
And this discussion is fine and all, but I hope we aren't saying Avery hasn't made an impact because he shoots 3 three pointers a game and has a 42 % eFG? Right?
Well, he's taking them. It's mostly a brick fest. "Developing as a threat" is all fine and dandy, except that you don't shoot yourself into being a threat, that's putting the cart before the horse.
I don't think that's the case. He's got too small a sample size to draw any reasonable conclusions, the first few games he was back and the game or two after his rib injury probably constitute 1/4 to 1/3 of his total attempts.
So what _is_ the case then?
Well, if you look at the aggregate of all his shooting at various levels (high school, college, D-League, AND the NBA) then he projects out to be a pretty decent shooter - somewhere between 35-40% from 3PT land, for example.
This season is, as BBallTim indicates, still a small sample size and it is not at all unreasonable to believe that the early couple of weeks of shooting, just back from a long absence from the game, are not necessarily representative of how he'll shoot over the long run - but they have a pretty strong statistical weight on the current season. Thus his overall 3PT% for the season is a miserable 31.2% so far.
As others have noted, though, over the last 10 games, Bradley has shot 37.9% from 3PT land. That seems more likely to be where he settles in for the long haul (given his larger body of work at the NBA and other levels). At that rate, yes, yes I do want him taking at least 3 3PT shots per game. In fact, I'd prefer him to be taking 4 or 5 such shots.
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
I totally agree. He needs to take these shots and look for them in game to get used to it.
And this discussion is fine and all, but I hope we aren't saying Avery hasn't made an impact because he shoots 3 three pointers a game and has a 42 % eFG? Right?
Well, he's taking them. It's mostly a brick fest. "Developing as a threat" is all fine and dandy, except that you don't shoot yourself into being a threat, that's putting the cart before the horse.
I don't think that's the case. He's got too small a sample size to draw any reasonable conclusions, the first few games he was back and the game or two after his rib injury probably constitute 1/4 to 1/3 of his total attempts.
So what _is_ the case then?
Well, if you look at the aggregate of all his shooting at various levels (high school, college, D-League, AND the NBA) then he projects out to be a pretty decent shooter - somewhere between 35-40% from 3PT land, for example.
This season is, as BBallTim indicates, still a small sample size and it is not at all unreasonable to believe that the early couple of weeks of shooting, just back from a long absence from the game, are not necessarily representative of how he'll shoot over the long run - but they have a pretty strong statistical weight on the current season. Thus his overall 3PT% for the season is a miserable 31.2% so far.
As others have noted, though, over the last 10 games, Bradley has shot 37.9% from 3PT land. That seems more likely to be where he settles in for the long haul (given his larger body of work at the NBA and other levels). At that rate, yes, yes I do want him taking at least 3 3PT shots per game. In fact, I'd prefer him to be taking 4 or 5 such shots.
So the solution to the small sample issue is to take... an even smaller sample?
For that matter, the respectable three point shooting percentage is largely due to one game, in which he shot 4 for 7. Incidentally, that was eleven games ago (he missed one in the process). Take this one out, and he's back to shooting a pedestrian .318 from three.
Or in other words, he's shot close to 32% from three over the team's last 10 games. So if you're trying to argue trend there, there isn't much of a trend.
Not only would I like him to take less threes than he does right now, but I'd like him to not take any unless they're corner threes.
I'm not saying he can't be efficient (as his track record indicates) -- I'm saying that he's most efficient when he picks his spots, and I don't think he's doing it this season.
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
I totally agree. He needs to take these shots and look for them in game to get used to it.
And this discussion is fine and all, but I hope we aren't saying Avery hasn't made an impact because he shoots 3 three pointers a game and has a 42 % eFG? Right?
Well, he's taking them. It's mostly a brick fest. "Developing as a threat" is all fine and dandy, except that you don't shoot yourself into being a threat, that's putting the cart before the horse.
I don't think that's the case. He's got too small a sample size to draw any reasonable conclusions, the first few games he was back and the game or two after his rib injury probably constitute 1/4 to 1/3 of his total attempts.
So what _is_ the case then?
Sorry, that was unclear. I don't think it's the case that Bradley is a poor 3 point shooter but the sample size is too small to draw any conclusions either way.
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Bradley will probably be a lifelong role player. A solid defensive option for covering opposing point guards. I've been calling him a smaller Tony Allen for a while now... Tony Allen has more offense, but Bradley doesn't have the mental lapses. I think some fans got a little overly excited by Bradley's crazy month of hot shooting and assumed he was a future star. He's not. He's probably going to spend most of his career coming off the bench as a defensive specialist. This league is loaded with young talented point guards... Bradley has value to a team looking to counteract that.
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Sorry, that was unclear. I don't think it's the case that Bradley is a poor 3 point shooter but the sample size is too small to draw any conclusions either way.
I agree that the sample is small to draw conclusions either way. But I feel that Bradley was successful last year because he was taking better shots (that is, mostly wide open corner trees). I don't think this is the case this season.
For comparison, last year he took 1.5 threes per contest in games when he played 20+ minutes. So he is what he is -- but why is he trying to play like something he isn't, when it doesn't work?
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Bradley scored very well for the Celtics, to end the season. I expect him to get back to that.
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The problem is Bradley is now jacking threes like there's no tomorrow (3 per game) -- and when he shot .500 from the field he mostly got wide open layups.
That's not a problem, that's the kind of thing you do to try and develop a young player. I want him to pick a few spots on the floor other than the corner and shoot a three almost any time he's open there until he is considered a threat or he proves he will never develop that shot.
I totally agree. He needs to take these shots and look for them in game to get used to it.
And this discussion is fine and all, but I hope we aren't saying Avery hasn't made an impact because he shoots 3 three pointers a game and has a 42 % eFG? Right?
Well, he's taking them. It's mostly a brick fest. "Developing as a threat" is all fine and dandy, except that you don't shoot yourself into being a threat, that's putting the cart before the horse.
I don't think that's the case. He's got too small a sample size to draw any reasonable conclusions, the first few games he was back and the game or two after his rib injury probably constitute 1/4 to 1/3 of his total attempts.
So what _is_ the case then?
Well, if you look at the aggregate of all his shooting at various levels (high school, college, D-League, AND the NBA) then he projects out to be a pretty decent shooter - somewhere between 35-40% from 3PT land, for example.
This season is, as BBallTim indicates, still a small sample size and it is not at all unreasonable to believe that the early couple of weeks of shooting, just back from a long absence from the game, are not necessarily representative of how he'll shoot over the long run - but they have a pretty strong statistical weight on the current season. Thus his overall 3PT% for the season is a miserable 31.2% so far.
As others have noted, though, over the last 10 games, Bradley has shot 37.9% from 3PT land. That seems more likely to be where he settles in for the long haul (given his larger body of work at the NBA and other levels). At that rate, yes, yes I do want him taking at least 3 3PT shots per game. In fact, I'd prefer him to be taking 4 or 5 such shots.
So the solution to the small sample issue is to take... an even smaller sample?
For that matter, the respectable three point shooting percentage is largely due to one game, in which he shot 4 for 7. Incidentally, that was eleven games ago (he missed one in the process). Take this one out, and he's back to shooting a pedestrian .318 from three.
Or in other words, he's shot close to 32% from three over the team's last 10 games. So if you're trying to argue trend there, there isn't much of a trend.
Not only would I like him to take less threes than he does right now, but I'd like him to not take any unless they're corner threes.
I'm not saying he can't be efficient (as his track record indicates) -- I'm saying that he's most efficient when he picks his spots, and I don't think he's doing it this season.
Well, I agree that normally one doesn't want to keep shrinking the sample. The point really just illustrates how a few games can skew the numbers when the data set is so small. The more recent data is only interesting if we accept the premise that it has more relevance by being more recent and further from his injury rehab stint.
I do know that, over spans at every level where Bradley has gotten consistent minutes and taken more shots, his shooting percentages have been fine and I'm not particularly worried about it. He's still young and far from defined by the first 16 games back from a long absence.
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I may be late and most people probably already said it...
on offense, probably not as much, but he did hit a key 3 in the NY game...
on defense...my god, there is a lot to say about his defense...words cannot describe how much I love this kid on defense...
he hustles, he never gives up on any play...not to mention him and Lee combine to harass Wade for 6/22 and 6 TO...yesterday's game against the Clips, with that offensive foul on Crawford...
you cannot say he is not an impact player now on defense...his defense helped us win games, if he can also be an impact player on offense, this kid can and will be an all star very soon
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I think Avery's an impact player already on defense. He changes games on that end of the floor. And is a very good asset to have in a league with a lot of high scoring point guards.
Offensively, this conversation reminds me of that one we had last year when Bradley was struggling so badly from the floor, until...he wasn't and he started shooting at a very high clip from range, from mid range and at the rim.
I think it takes Bradley a while to get comfortable with how he fits into an offense. Once he settled in with Rondo, Pierce, KG and Bass last year he was very effective offensively.
I think he needs to settled in with the new guys and with running with Lee as well instead of with Rondo.
Let's give him another 2-3 months coming off surgery also.
I think he's fully capable of scoring 14-17 point a game on a regular basis once he's fully re-acclimated coming off surgery. If he combines that with stellar D on opposing points, I'd be very, very happy.
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I reject your premise. He's already making a pretty large impact.
He's a role player, sure, but one that is vital to the success of this team moving forward.
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He's a Tony Allen with less defensive upside and better shooting motion. Quality rotation player at worst and at best, so, he's an impact player probably.
Less defensive upside? I can't really agree with that. Are you basing that just on the fact that he's an inch or two shorter than TA? Bradley is a much smarter player, for starters. I think it's fair to say his upside is better on both ends of the floor.
I think Bradley's ceiling is as the best guard defender in the game with an offensive game pretty similar to Courtney Lee -- 12-14 pts a night on 45 / 40 / 80 shooting.
If Avery Bradley ever has a season where he shoots 45 from the floor and 40 from three he should instantly become president of the United States.
Alright, fine, closer to 42 or 43 percent than 45.
But it's silly to act like Bradley can't possibly achieve close to those numbers. If he's taking fewer than 9-10 shots a game, most of his threes are spot up shots from the corners, and he's getting fed by a passer like Rondo, he could easily put up very nice shooting numbers.
Still, I don't think Bradley is ever going to score more than 12-14 points a game (and probably more like 10-11), nor is he ever going to be very good at creating his own shot.
Nevertheless, it's clear he has upside on that end of the floor, for sure.