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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: gar on February 03, 2013, 10:07:09 AM

Title: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: gar on February 03, 2013, 10:07:09 AM
All of Rondo's triple doubles were not allowing the C's to run. Yes the C's have a rebounding problem; but as the last 3 games have clearly shown, having your point guard rebound the ball and pound it up the court is not the fastest way to advance the ball, no matter how speedy he is.

KG and Sully are both excellent at getting the ball up the court quickly. Unfortunately with Sully out Bass will have to step in and get the ball out on the wing to Bradley, Lee, Terry, Barbosa or Pierce so they can keep feeding Green or Wilcox at the rim!
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Rtpas11 on February 03, 2013, 10:16:41 AM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: saltlover on February 03, 2013, 10:19:28 AM
All of Rondo's triple doubles were not allowing the C's to run. Yes the C's have a rebounding problem; but as the last 3 games have clearly shown, having your point guard rebound the ball and pound it up the court is not the fastest way to advance the ball, no matter how speedy he is.

KG and Sully are both excellent at getting the ball up the court quickly. Unfortunately with Sully out Bass will have to step in and get the ball out on the wing to Bradley, Lee, Terry, Barbosa or Pierce so they can keep feeding Green or Wilcox at the rim!

I love revisionist history.  Rondo averaged 4.4 defensive rebounds per game.  Assuming every time Rondo rebounded that his next move was to "pound it up the court" (which was not the case, at least not every time) then this play occurred, at most, 4.4 times per game.  I do not think that Rondo's rebounding slowed the team down by any noticeable measure, especially considering the Celtics average 93 possessions per game.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: MBunge on February 03, 2013, 10:37:03 AM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 03, 2013, 10:43:34 AM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

My problem with this is Rondo isn't a great enough player where you build your franchise around him.  Now, if Rondo was your second best player, that'd be fine.

The way this team is constructed is to cover up Rondo's weaknesses (floor spacing) while at the same time boost his strengths (transisition opportunies; ability to drive and kick for jumpers).  The problem is, the system we've been using (at least before Rondo went down) wasn't playing to Rondo's strengths.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: pearljammer10 on February 03, 2013, 10:46:43 AM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

My problem with this is Rondo isn't a great enough player where you build your franchise around him.  Now, if Rondo was your second best player, that'd be fine.

The way this team is constructed is to cover up Rondo's weaknesses (floor spacing) while at the same time boost his strengths (transisition opportunies; ability to drive and kick for jumpers).  The problem is, the system we've been using (at least before Rondo went down) wasn't playing to Rondo's strengths.

So how is that Rondo fault?
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: wiley on February 03, 2013, 10:48:35 AM
Didn't someone recently post the Celtics overall record when Rondo has a triple double.  It's a very good record.

Rondo was playing the style the Celtics will/do play in the playoffs against the nastier defenses in the league.  I wouldn't have minded if the coaches noticed this and gave Rondo more rest on the bench and let the team play a looser style during the regular season. 

It's amazing how people forget the difference between regular and post season games.  Rondo will be sorely missed, but I'm ready to enjoy what should be an awesome level of defense from the Celtics in this year's playoffs. 

Need Dalembert pretty badly I'd say.  Not sure what his issues are....so maybe we don't, but you get my point.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 03, 2013, 10:54:23 AM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

My problem with this is Rondo isn't a great enough player where you build your franchise around him.  Now, if Rondo was your second best player, that'd be fine.

The way this team is constructed is to cover up Rondo's weaknesses (floor spacing) while at the same time boost his strengths (transisition opportunies; ability to drive and kick for jumpers).  The problem is, the system we've been using (at least before Rondo went down) wasn't playing to Rondo's strengths.

So how is that Rondo fault?

I don't think it's Rondo's fault.  You could put the blame on Doc, Danny, the role players not producing.

The reason I had a problem with what MBunge said was because I don't think Rondo is a franchise player (yet) who a team should build around.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 03, 2013, 11:02:52 AM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

  Most of the people who think Rondo's bad for the team watch the game selectively and only see particular things they're looking for. They're the people who claim that Rondo slows the game down too much even though we play at a faster pace with him than without him, they're the ones who are praising our newfound transition game in spite of the fact that we aren't scoring more fast break points or scoring them more efficiently, they're the ones who are thrilled about how much better the offense is without him even though it hasn't improved at all.

  Those are the people who are "catching up" to you.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: pearljammer10 on February 03, 2013, 11:06:12 AM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

My problem with this is Rondo isn't a great enough player where you build your franchise around him.  Now, if Rondo was your second best player, that'd be fine.

The way this team is constructed is to cover up Rondo's weaknesses (floor spacing) while at the same time boost his strengths (transisition opportunies; ability to drive and kick for jumpers).  The problem is, the system we've been using (at least before Rondo went down) wasn't playing to Rondo's strengths.

So how is that Rondo fault?

I don't think it's Rondo's fault.  You could put the blame on Doc, Danny, the role players not producing.

The reason I had a problem with what MBunge said was because I don't think Rondo is a franchise player (yet) who a team should build around.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarify. As much as I think rondo is the best PG to run an nba offense, I also think he needs a number 1 franchise scorer to be at his best.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: gar on February 03, 2013, 11:14:31 AM
Interesting that this turned into a blame Rondo thread. All I was saying was maybe he shouldn't be Rebounding when you have a Wilcox, Green or Lee on the floor who can run in transition.

More often than not when Rondo is able to beat the defense down the floor he is looking to drive himself or kick.

That is fine when you had PP, RA and KG trailing; but if you want to run you need to get the ball up the floor faster. Lee, Green and Wilcox can all finish at the rim if you advance with the pass. At least Doc had the good sense to recognize this once Rondo went down.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 03, 2013, 11:23:48 AM
Rondo and Doc both should share the bulk of the blame for the team not performing the way it should, then Pierce to a certain extent.

Rondo's pace is horrible. Game after game you'd see Rondo going to the bench, and suddenly we start playing faster, you put Rondo back in, with the same unit, and everything slowed down.

Also, Rondo pretty much had complete autonomy on play calling.

So I don't see how one can see a problem in our offensive system, and not throw some of the blame towards Rondo in this circumstances.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: GreenEnvy on February 03, 2013, 11:27:33 AM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

For a PF or C, maybe.

PG? I wouldn't. Non-scoring PG? No way. You can make a case for Irving or Rose, but I still wouldn't remake the entire organization for either of them.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Clench123 on February 03, 2013, 11:43:44 AM
Celtics' fans intelligence is overrated
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 03, 2013, 11:48:25 AM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

My problem with this is Rondo isn't a great enough player where you build your franchise around him.  Now, if Rondo was your second best player, that'd be fine.

The way this team is constructed is to cover up Rondo's weaknesses (floor spacing) while at the same time boost his strengths (transisition opportunies; ability to drive and kick for jumpers).  The problem is, the system we've been using (at least before Rondo went down) wasn't playing to Rondo's strengths.

So how is that Rondo fault?

I don't think it's Rondo's fault.  You could put the blame on Doc, Danny, the role players not producing.

The reason I had a problem with what MBunge said was because I don't think Rondo is a franchise player (yet) who a team should build around.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarify. As much as I think rondo is the best PG to run an nba offense, I also think he needs a number 1 franchise scorer to be at his best.

  What's the definition of a number 1 franchise scorer? Because PP, while 16th and 14th in scoring this year and last wasn't in the top 20 the previous 3 years. People like to talk about not wanting to build a team around Rondo and not wanting him to be your "best player". Rondo's one of the few players in the league that will give you a shot at a title without a franchise player.

  Look at the 2010 team that came within a few points of winning a title. We beat the teams with the two best records in the league (and 2 of the 3 best players in the league) so it wasn't a cakewalk. Pierce was tied for 20th in the league in scoring, KG was tied for 19th in rebounds per game. I don't think very many teams have ever had that type of success without better scorers or rebounders. People want to move on from Rondo because we don't have a franchise player to pair him with. Given the right mix of players, you don't need one.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: eugen on February 03, 2013, 11:56:59 AM
Rondo has talent for Harlem team, but Cs p;lay better without him
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: MBunge on February 03, 2013, 11:59:00 AM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

My problem with this is Rondo isn't a great enough player where you build your franchise around him. 

How many players in the whole frickin' league are then "great" enough to build a franchise around them if Rondo isn't?

LeBron.  Howard.  Durant.  Probably Derrick Rose and Chris Paul.  After that?  Can we really put Carmello in that category?  Isn't it too early to put Kyrie Irving in that class?  Steph Curry clearly isn't that kind of player.  Heck, Tim Duncan is no longer that kind of player.  Neither was KG, Pierce or Ray when Ainge put them all together.

Rondo's the best player on the team.  Either you build around him...or what?  Build around aging veterans who are going to retire in a year or two?  Deliberately try and suck as bad as you can in the hope that you get lucky in the draft and get someone better than Rondo?  Clear out cap space in the hope you can get a free agent better than Rondo?  How many teams have spent YEARS in the lottery without ever getting someone better than Rondo?  Look where the whole "let's just get cap space" approach got Dallas, from championship and likely contender for several more years to terrible with nothing to show for it.

You have to deal with what is.  Not some fantasy of what you want to be.

Mike
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: celtics2 on February 03, 2013, 12:03:43 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 03, 2013, 12:08:29 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 03, 2013, 12:13:56 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

Most teams don't have 8.7 steals per game either or cause teams to turn the ball over 15.8 times a game.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: scaryjerry on February 03, 2013, 12:20:10 PM
Yawn....threads like this are starting to irritate me so much you're going to make me root for missing the playoffs.

Rondo was above and beyond our best player

when Bradley was healthy and paired with rondo we won 6 in a row..the team is now playing harder (against 2 of the worst teams I've seen in a while) because they know they have to without their best player who carried them most nights.....not sustainable.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 03, 2013, 12:22:20 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

Most teams don't have 8.7 steals per game either or cause teams to turn the ball over 15.8 times a game.

  So you're claiming that 1 above average transition possession a game accounts for the difference? Would we suddenly go from better than average to worse than average if we accounted for it?

Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: ThaPreacher on February 03, 2013, 12:27:46 PM
Sometimes your fast break doesn't work because the ball isn't advanced up the court, with all players running.  Rondo requires the ball on every break and every possession. The Rondoless Celtics have distributed the ball well on the break, and in the half court.  But rondo is a weapon as well. He certainly is a top tier guard.  Both sides make valid points.  ONE THING, I think we all agree, Rondo should not have the ball at the end of the game with time running down.  The pick and roll with KG is terrible.  Rondo cannot hit that shot, and a deep jumper from Kevin is not the way to go.  It has cost the Celtics at least 5-6 games this season. 
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 03, 2013, 12:31:34 PM
Only a handful of guys on this team can run with Rondo.   I think our guys let him do his thing sometimes and didn't run the floor save the few who could.

The reason fast breaks don't work well for us is that you have to start the break off the boards.   We are one of the worst rebounding teams.   It is hard to break without the ball.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 03, 2013, 12:32:41 PM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

My problem with this is Rondo isn't a great enough player where you build your franchise around him. 

How many players in the whole frickin' league are then "great" enough to build a franchise around them if Rondo isn't?

LeBron.  Howard.  Durant.  Probably Derrick Rose and Chris Paul.  After that?  Can we really put Carmello in that category?  Isn't it too early to put Kyrie Irving in that class?  Steph Curry clearly isn't that kind of player.  Heck, Tim Duncan is no longer that kind of player.  Neither was KG, Pierce or Ray when Ainge put them all together.

Rondo's the best player on the team.  Either you build around him...or what?  Build around aging veterans who are going to retire in a year or two?  Deliberately try and suck as bad as you can in the hope that you get lucky in the draft and get someone better than Rondo?  Clear out cap space in the hope you can get a free agent better than Rondo?  How many teams have spent YEARS in the lottery without ever getting someone better than Rondo?  Look where the whole "let's just get cap space" approach got Dallas, from championship and likely contender for several more years to terrible with nothing to show for it.

You have to deal with what is.  Not some fantasy of what you want to be.

Mike

That's the problem.

We've got a VERY talented player in Rondo, no question. Is he a superstar and a franchise player?  In my opinion, no.  Can he get there?  Of course, if he puts in the work.

If we build around Rondo, we'll never be contenders unless he steps up his game.  We aren't going to build around KG and Pierce; they're on the tail end of their careers.  We aren't building around anyone else on the roster because none of them have superstar potential.

That's our problem.  We are stuck with a talented guy in Rondo as our franchise player, and unfortunately, we won't be able to win a chip with him as our best player.

If Danny feels the same as I do, he will blow it up, try to nab a stud in the draft, and see how he pans out.  He might even trade Rondo in the next year or two.  If the rook doesn't pan out, it's rinse and repeat.  That's how rebuilding works.  Sometimes it takes five years, ten years, heck, even 22 years.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 03, 2013, 12:34:49 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

Most teams don't have 8.7 steals per game either or cause teams to turn the ball over 15.8 times a game.

  So you're claiming that 1 above average transition possession a game accounts for the difference? Would we suddenly go from better than average to worse than average if we accounted for it?

I'm not making any claims, just laying the facts.

I personally don't care about the whole when in the shot clock we're shooting discussion, to me is meaningless. Teams have 24 seconds to put up a good shot, don't care much when that shot is taken.

I care more about the amount of time that is put to good use actually looking for a good shot.

But Rondo is just a player of extremes for me, he plays really fast during a stretch, then he goes through an excessively slow stretch. And it's unnecessary. Consistency on how he plays is the big problem, not his ability to perform as he should.

As I've mentioned through the past 5 or so years, one of my main problems with Rondo is the role he's been given, and not being satisfied how he performs under that role (and considering the role, he deserves a lot of praise, and a lot of the blame). I really think he would perform much better for us, and the team would perform better with him, under different circumstances. And as I've said plenty of times, really liked how he played during last year's playoffs through much of it... but it's irrelevant to his contribution to us so far this year.

Still it's maddening when a guy with his speed, which is his biggest asset, doesn't put it to appropriate use. It's maddening seeing his poor defensive effort. I could generally live with one of the two not being there game to game, but not the two, which happens too often.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: ThaPreacher on February 03, 2013, 12:43:20 PM
Only a handful of guys on this team can run with Rondo.   I think our guys let him do his thing sometimes and didn't run the floor save the few who could.

The reason fast breaks don't work well for us is that you have to start the break off the boards.   We are one of the worst rebounding teams.   It is hard to break without the ball.

If you have 20 def rebounds you can run 20 times.  If you have 10 def rebounds you can run 10 times.  Green. Bradley. KG. Wilcox. Lee. Terry. Bass. Rondo can all run.   The problem is that rondo turns back, foul line and below to outlet.  Dribbling doesn't advance the ball as fast as passing. Rondo demands the ball.  The rise in the Celtic fast break points is similar to the offense.  Rondo is not dribbling.   Simple.  Why argue.

In a playoff series, the celtics will have difficulty, because they need Rondo to dribble.  They will have trouble getting into their offense without an elite ball handler.  Rondo is a tease, because he simply can't hit free throws so he doesn't want to penetrate. His jumper has improved, but yours would put more fear into the opposition.  Rondo is a Catch22. (Joseph Heller btw).  Which is why we are having this discussion....heh
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: wiley on February 03, 2013, 12:53:34 PM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

My problem with this is Rondo isn't a great enough player where you build your franchise around him. 

How many players in the whole frickin' league are then "great" enough to build a franchise around them if Rondo isn't?

LeBron.  Howard.  Durant.  Probably Derrick Rose and Chris Paul.  After that?  Can we really put Carmello in that category?  Isn't it too early to put Kyrie Irving in that class?  Steph Curry clearly isn't that kind of player.  Heck, Tim Duncan is no longer that kind of player.  Neither was KG, Pierce or Ray when Ainge put them all together.

Rondo's the best player on the team.  Either you build around him...or what?  Build around aging veterans who are going to retire in a year or two?  Deliberately try and suck as bad as you can in the hope that you get lucky in the draft and get someone better than Rondo?  Clear out cap space in the hope you can get a free agent better than Rondo?  How many teams have spent YEARS in the lottery without ever getting someone better than Rondo?  Look where the whole "let's just get cap space" approach got Dallas, from championship and likely contender for several more years to terrible with nothing to show for it.

You have to deal with what is.  Not some fantasy of what you want to be.

Mike

That's the problem.

We've got a VERY talented player in Rondo, no question. Is he a superstar and a franchise player?  In my opinion, no.  Can he get there?  Of course, if he puts in the work.

If we build around Rondo, we'll never be contenders unless he steps up his game.  We aren't going to build around KG and Pierce; they're on the tail end of their careers.  We aren't building around anyone else on the roster because none of them have superstar potential.

That's our problem.  We are stuck with a talented guy in Rondo as our franchise player, and unfortunately, we won't be able to win a chip with him as our best player.

If Danny feels the same as I do, he will blow it up, try to nab a stud in the draft, and see how he pans out.  He might even trade Rondo in the next year or two.  If the rook doesn't pan out, it's rinse and repeat.  That's how rebuilding works.  Sometimes it takes five years, ten years, heck, even 22 years.

I have to try and tackle the illogic of this post, as I have before when this argument is presented.  The problem is the use of the term "build around".  It's a mis-used term. 

Do you think Oklahoma City went out and got Russell Westbrook because they wanted a PG who would shoot a lower percentage than Durant and yet continue to shoot more than him despite it?  No.  They picked up Westbrook because he was a stud basketball player.  Is that "building around" Durant?  Or is it just adding as much talent as possible.  The answer is the latter.

NBA team building is about collecting as much talent as possible at each position, period.  Of course you can tweak things like defense, rebounding, and pure shooting abiilty, but you don't tweak it at the expense of overall talent.

If you look closely, what you and many others are saying is that Rondo sucks at being best.  Trust me, if he sucks that bad at being best we can find better.  And if a team like the Boston Celtics can't find better than Rondo, then it's time to give the guy props.  But the bottom line is that keeping Rondo is not going to prevent the Celtics from re-loading at other positions, especially at his current contract.

So, if you don't like Rondo as a PG, that's fine.  Get rid of him.  But don't argue that you can't build around him.  He'd have 3 rings without injuries to Garnett and Perk.  He's going to the hall of fame if he can get healthy.  Of course you can build around that.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: clover on February 03, 2013, 01:01:47 PM
Yawn....threads like this are starting to irritate me so much you're going to make me root for missing the playoffs.

Rondo was above and beyond our best player

when Bradley was healthy and paired with rondo we won 6 in a row..the team is now playing harder (against 2 of the worst teams I've seen in a while) because they know they have to without their best player who carried them most nights.....not sustainable.

Basketball is still a two-way game and I'd argue that KG is still hands down the most important cog in this team's wheel. Also, he certainly was a franchise player back when the C's acquired him.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: wiley on February 03, 2013, 01:07:26 PM
Yawn....threads like this are starting to irritate me so much you're going to make me root for missing the playoffs.

Rondo was above and beyond our best player

when Bradley was healthy and paired with rondo we won 6 in a row..the team is now playing harder (against 2 of the worst teams I've seen in a while) because they know they have to without their best player who carried them most nights.....not sustainable.

Basketball is still a two-way game and I'd argue that KG is still hands down the most important cog in this team's wheel. Also, he certainly was a franchise player back when the C's acquired him.

Yes.  Not sure who said KG is not a franchise type player.  KG is the definition of franchise player. 
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 03, 2013, 01:23:13 PM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

My problem with this is Rondo isn't a great enough player where you build your franchise around him. 

How many players in the whole frickin' league are then "great" enough to build a franchise around them if Rondo isn't?

LeBron.  Howard.  Durant.  Probably Derrick Rose and Chris Paul.  After that?  Can we really put Carmello in that category?  Isn't it too early to put Kyrie Irving in that class?  Steph Curry clearly isn't that kind of player.  Heck, Tim Duncan is no longer that kind of player.  Neither was KG, Pierce or Ray when Ainge put them all together.

Rondo's the best player on the team.  Either you build around him...or what?  Build around aging veterans who are going to retire in a year or two?  Deliberately try and suck as bad as you can in the hope that you get lucky in the draft and get someone better than Rondo?  Clear out cap space in the hope you can get a free agent better than Rondo?  How many teams have spent YEARS in the lottery without ever getting someone better than Rondo?  Look where the whole "let's just get cap space" approach got Dallas, from championship and likely contender for several more years to terrible with nothing to show for it.

You have to deal with what is.  Not some fantasy of what you want to be.

Mike

That's the problem.

We've got a VERY talented player in Rondo, no question. Is he a superstar and a franchise player?  In my opinion, no.  Can he get there?  Of course, if he puts in the work.

If we build around Rondo, we'll never be contenders unless he steps up his game.  We aren't going to build around KG and Pierce; they're on the tail end of their careers.  We aren't building around anyone else on the roster because none of them have superstar potential.

That's our problem.  We are stuck with a talented guy in Rondo as our franchise player, and unfortunately, we won't be able to win a chip with him as our best player.

If Danny feels the same as I do, he will blow it up, try to nab a stud in the draft, and see how he pans out.  He might even trade Rondo in the next year or two.  If the rook doesn't pan out, it's rinse and repeat.  That's how rebuilding works.  Sometimes it takes five years, ten years, heck, even 22 years.

I have to try and tackle the illogic of this post, as I have before when this argument is presented.  The problem is the use of the term "build around".  It's a mis-used term. 

Do you think Oklahoma City went out and got Russell Westbrook because they wanted a PG who would shoot a lower percentage than Durant and yet continue to shoot more than him despite it?  No.  They picked up Westbrook because he was a stud basketball player.  Is that "building around" Durant?  Or is it just adding as much talent as possible.  The answer is the latter.

NBA team building is about collecting as much talent as possible at each position, period.  Of course you can tweak things like defense, rebounding, and pure shooting abiilty, but you don't tweak it at the expense of overall talent.

If you look closely, what you and many others are saying is that Rondo sucks at being best.  Trust me, if he sucks that bad at being best we can find better.  And if a team like the Boston Celtics can't find better than Rondo, then it's time to give the guy props.  But the bottom line is that keeping Rondo is not going to prevent the Celtics from re-loading at other positions, especially at his current contract.

So, if you don't like Rondo as a PG, that's fine.  Get rid of him.  But don't argue that you can't build around him.  He'd have 3 rings without injuries to Garnett and Perk.  He's going to the hall of fame if he can get healthy.  Of course you can build around that.

What's wrong with saying, "Rondo sucks at being best"?  I gave Rondo props; he's very talented, but he's not a franchise player.

Sure, you can reload at other positions with players that have skill-sets  which compliment Rondo's game.  I have no problem with that.  You just have to hope that one of those guys is better than Rondo.

I love Rondo.  I don't understand why people here think, "Oh, this guy criticizes Rondo, therefore he doesn't like Rondo."  And, yes, Rondo would have three rings if it weren't for injuries.  Was he the best player on those three teams?  In my opinion, no.  Is he going to the HOF?  Yeah, if he can stay healthy.  Could you build around that?  I'm not as sure as you are.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: celtics2 on February 03, 2013, 01:29:34 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

I don't think veterans like Allen, Pierce and KG were thrilled with waiting for Rondo to do his dribble under the net while they were getting through screens and double teams. The Team was tired of running down and waiting. The Team was designed for down the court and quick strikes. But those eventually ended up in half court situations and shoving matches. Dennis Johnson pulled that off because a post up always touched the ball early.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: ItStaysYang on February 03, 2013, 01:42:32 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

... Except it was only true this season, so you're still wrong
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: OmarSekou on February 03, 2013, 01:43:53 PM
Rondo's done for the season. He's not even playing anymore. Can't we just hope he gets better for next year?

As far as his future, I hope it's with the Celts. If a team can't find a way to make use of a great player, then that's on the team. Rondo's a great player and we won't get back better value for him. Let's hope the team can figure it out when the time comes.

This may be the last ride for PP and KG. We're playing well and I hope we can send them off on a high note if this is indeed the end.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: action781 on February 03, 2013, 02:34:50 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

For me, the issue is not when we're taking shots compared to other teams.  The issue is the efficiency.  We were 26th in the NBA in offensive efficiency.  And the ball was in Rondo's hands most of the time.  My issue lies with Rondo's over dribbling and Doc's allowing (or encouraging) this inefficient offense.

And over dribbling can even be acceptable in certain cases like if the other players on the team aren't good decision makers with the ball in their hands.  But thats not the case with the celtics, we have so many talented players on this team.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 03, 2013, 02:55:40 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

For me, the issue is not when we're taking shots compared to other teams.  The issue is the efficiency.  We were 26th in the NBA in offensive efficiency.  And the ball was in Rondo's hands most of the time.  My issue lies with Rondo's over dribbling and Doc's allowing (or encouraging) this inefficient offense.

And over dribbling can even be acceptable in certain cases like if the other players on the team aren't good decision makers with the ball in their hands.  But thats not the case with the celtics, we have so many talented players on this team.

  When we take shots we hit them fairly efficiently. The main reason our offensive efficiency is low is that we're a terrible offensive rebounding team, we don't take (or hit) a lot of threes and we don't get a lot of shots at the rim. I don't think any of these issues are because of the ball being in Rondo's hands.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 03, 2013, 02:55:59 PM
the main thing I think ...all the Celtics and Rondo should see is the fastest way to move the ball is with THEPASS.      not dribble.......Celtics as a team need to move the ball with passing first, dribble  second........see the Spurs.......

this said......Rondo is the most guilty of dribbling the ball forever........passing the ball......is far faster way to get a play going


Rondo stagnates the offense ...way too much .......it is clear as mud

Doc is guilty of letting him screwup the offensive flow
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 03, 2013, 02:59:09 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

I don't think veterans like Allen, Pierce and KG were thrilled with waiting for Rondo to do his dribble under the net while they were getting through screens and double teams. The Team was tired of running down and waiting. The Team was designed for down the court and quick strikes. But those eventually ended up in half court situations and shoving matches. Dennis Johnson pulled that off because a post up always touched the ball early.

  I don't think Rondo was thrilled about all the times he rushed the ball up court only to have those three trotting up court a few seconds later either. If Rondo gave them the ball in transition it probably would have resulted in a back court violation.

Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 03, 2013, 03:03:29 PM
What's wrong with saying, "Rondo sucks at being best"?  I gave Rondo props; he's very talented, but he's not a franchise player.

Sure, you can reload at other positions with players that have skill-sets  which compliment Rondo's game.  I have no problem with that.  You just have to hope that one of those guys is better than Rondo.

  You just need one of those players to be a better scorer than Rondo.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: OttawaCeltic on February 03, 2013, 03:15:07 PM
the main thing I think ...all the Celtics and Rondo should see is the fastest way to move the ball is with THEPASS.      not dribble.......Celtics as a team need to move the ball with passing first, dribble  second........see the Spurs.......

this said......Rondo is the most guilty of dribbling the ball forever........passing the ball......is far faster way to get a play going


Rondo stagnates the offense ...way too much .......it is clear as mud

Doc is guilty of letting him screwup the offensive flow


preach brother!
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BenHenry on February 03, 2013, 03:36:18 PM
What's up with all these bandwagon fans hoping we miss the playoffs just to prove that Rondo is the best player on the team? Just go away and join the Heats' bandwagon fans you're embarrassing this forum.

This team's best players have always been KG and Pierce. The Celts are built around Rondo's shooting liabilities granted that he's a great passer. KG has the most impact on this teams' chances of winning while Pierce can still put up 30 on any given night. KG is the anchor of our defense and The Truth is still clutch, we don't call him the Captain for nothing.

Don't call yourselves Celtics fans if you're gonna wish we lose every game. Jeez what the hell is wrong with some people.

edit: Did anyone else saw that Pierce's clutch dagger 3 on the Clippers with five seconds left? Go Celtics! I totally think we can make a deep run in the playoffs.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Swoopz on February 03, 2013, 04:03:31 PM
What's up with all these bandwagon fans hoping we miss the playoffs just to prove that Rondo is the best player on the team? Just go away and join the Heats' bandwagon fans you're embarrassing this forum.

This team's best players have always been KG and Pierce. The Celts are built around Rondo's shooting liabilities granted that he's a great passer. KG has the most impact on this teams' chances of winning while Pierce can still put up 30 on any given night. KG is the anchor of our defense and The Truth is still clutch, we don't call him the Captain for nothing.

Don't call yourselves Celtics fans if you're gonna wish we lose every game. Jeez what the hell is wrong with some people.

edit: Did anyone else saw that Pierce's clutch dagger 3 on the Clippers with five seconds left? Go Celtics! I totally think we can make a deep run in the playoffs.

Not sure how bandwagoners fit into anything discussed here so far, and no one is wishing the Celtics will lose every game. No need to act superior by making up claims
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 03, 2013, 04:10:45 PM
What's wrong with saying, "Rondo sucks at being best"?  I gave Rondo props; he's very talented, but he's not a franchise player.

Sure, you can reload at other positions with players that have skill-sets  which compliment Rondo's game.  I have no problem with that.  You just have to hope that one of those guys is better than Rondo.

  You just need one of those players to be a better scorer than Rondo.

This is a great point, Tim.  TP.

I forgot to include this in my original post.  The reason we were contenders before Rondo went down AND had Rondo as our best player is because Pierce, KG, and Jet are, in my opinion, still above-average scorers in the league.  When you pair that with good shooters (Bass and Lee), Rondo can be considered a team's best player on a contender.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BenHenry on February 03, 2013, 04:11:42 PM
What's up with all these bandwagon fans hoping we miss the playoffs just to prove that Rondo is the best player on the team? Just go away and join the Heats' bandwagon fans you're embarrassing this forum.

This team's best players have always been KG and Pierce. The Celts are built around Rondo's shooting liabilities granted that he's a great passer. KG has the most impact on this teams' chances of winning while Pierce can still put up 30 on any given night. KG is the anchor of our defense and The Truth is still clutch, we don't call him the Captain for nothing.

Don't call yourselves Celtics fans if you're gonna wish we lose every game. Jeez what the hell is wrong with some people.

edit: Did anyone else saw that Pierce's clutch dagger 3 on the Clippers with five seconds left? Go Celtics! I totally think we can make a deep run in the playoffs.

Not sure how bandwagoners fit into anything discussed here so far, and no one is wishing the Celtics will lose every game. No need to act superior by making up claims

So the 6th post down on page 2 doesn't exist? - "Yawn....threads like this are starting to irritate me so much you're going to make me root for missing the playoffs."

Yeah okay, learn to read the thread before posting.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: KGs Knee on February 03, 2013, 04:25:45 PM
Interesting that this turned into a blame Rondo thread.

9 out of 10 threads right now seem to end up being "blame Rondo" threads.  Which just turn into p---ing matches.

I'm becoming extremely disillusioned with this blog right now.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 03, 2013, 04:29:29 PM
frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   

It is Tuff pill to swallow for a lot of folks ......but maybe this will show how Rondo improves the game of some players and destroys the game of others all at the same time.

Clearly Doc has to consider how ROndos erratic play from one game to another destroys  the team rhythm
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Spicoli on February 03, 2013, 05:05:07 PM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

Building this team around Rondo is insanity. Rondo is not good enough to build around. You only build teams around superstars not all-stars like Rondo.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Spicoli on February 03, 2013, 05:10:56 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

  Most of the people who think Rondo's bad for the team watch the game selectively and only see particular things they're looking for. They're the people who claim that Rondo slows the game down too much even though we play at a faster pace with him than without him, they're the ones who are praising our newfound transition game in spite of the fact that we aren't scoring more fast break points or scoring them more efficiently, they're the ones who are thrilled about how much better the offense is without him even though it hasn't improved at all.

  Those are the people who are "catching up" to you.

I can't speak for everyone, but i evaluate Rondo on whether or not he plays the game the "right" way. Too many times he will pass up open layups or open shots that would easily be two points in exchange for passing it out to another guy who might or might not make the shot. This is just...not very smart. If he didn't do this so frequently i might not have a problem, but he basically does this every game. His defense is atrocious (he's always letting his man get in front so he can swipe at the ball from behind) and he basically just chooses to play hard whenever he wants. These are the reasons why i am not a fan of Rondos game.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: greenpride32 on February 03, 2013, 05:29:22 PM
I've been saying for years Rondo is overrated.  For all the high praise he gets by the C's fans, he was not good enough to land Westbrook, CP3, or Steph Curry.  Now that's not exactly trashing the guy as those are some pretty talented players.  But the main point is nobody around the league holds him in as high regard as being a top player.  He couldn't even make the Team USA squad.  Look at home the team is playing without him. I don't know how much more evidence you need.  All he does is hold the ball for at least half the shot clock and he'll rack up assists based on how well we are shooting that day.  Guess what, most guys who are good enough to make the NBA know how to play basketball.  They all didn't make it this far because they had some wizard play maker always supplying them with perfect passes (sarcasm).  Even the C's wanted this guy out, but of course there are no takers.  If this guy is so great at "running the offense" why is our offensive efficiency so bad compared to other teams?
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: OmarSekou on February 03, 2013, 05:30:46 PM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

Building this team around Rondo is insanity. Rondo is not good enough to build around. You only build teams around superstars not all-stars like Rondo.

These are the posts I don't understand. There are 2 "superstars" in the league by most people's definition of the type of player teams should build around. Chances of us getting either are slim. Chances of another emerging in the draft (let alone us getting him) are also slim.

We won a title with no "superstars" and 3 all-stars. You build a team around the best pieces you have. We should do what got us to a title and has kept us relevant, team basketball. Valuing the team over the individual.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: greenpride32 on February 03, 2013, 05:31:58 PM

I can't speak for everyone, but i evaluate Rondo on whether or not he plays the game the "right" way. Too many times he will pass up open layups or open shots that would easily be two points in exchange for passing it out to another guy who might or might not make the shot. This is just...not very smart.

He does this to fill up the stat sheet.  Goes for his assists; if he's approaching 10 boards he will hang around the rim.

There's a very notable trend that he has bigger games when they're nationally televised.  So basically he plays harder during these games to promote himself.  Don't fool yourself into thinking he's "stepping up his game".  The great players play hard EVERY game.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 03, 2013, 06:26:54 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

  Most of the people who think Rondo's bad for the team watch the game selectively and only see particular things they're looking for. They're the people who claim that Rondo slows the game down too much even though we play at a faster pace with him than without him, they're the ones who are praising our newfound transition game in spite of the fact that we aren't scoring more fast break points or scoring them more efficiently, they're the ones who are thrilled about how much better the offense is without him even though it hasn't improved at all.

  Those are the people who are "catching up" to you.

I can't speak for everyone, but i evaluate Rondo on whether or not he plays the game the "right" way. Too many times he will pass up open layups or open shots that would easily be two points in exchange for passing it out to another guy who might or might not make the shot. This is just...not very smart. If he didn't do this so frequently i might not have a problem, but he basically does this every game.

  Rondo generally only passes up open layups on fast breaks. Every game you see Rondo drive the lane, suck in the defense and pass the ball out to someone for a jumper. There will be a big near Rondo ready to defend the shot. Since Rondo passes it and doesn't shoot it the big makes no effort to block the (non)shot. Since Rondo drove the lane and (because he didn't attempt a shot) nobody tried to block him some people think he passed up an open layup.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: danglertx on February 03, 2013, 08:30:44 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

  Most of the people who think Rondo's bad for the team watch the game selectively and only see particular things they're looking for. They're the people who claim that Rondo slows the game down too much even though we play at a faster pace with him than without him, they're the ones who are praising our newfound transition game in spite of the fact that we aren't scoring more fast break points or scoring them more efficiently, they're the ones who are thrilled about how much better the offense is without him even though it hasn't improved at all.

  Those are the people who are "catching up" to you.

I can't speak for everyone, but i evaluate Rondo on whether or not he plays the game the "right" way. Too many times he will pass up open layups or open shots that would easily be two points in exchange for passing it out to another guy who might or might not make the shot. This is just...not very smart. If he didn't do this so frequently i might not have a problem, but he basically does this every game.

  Rondo generally only passes up open layups on fast breaks. Every game you see Rondo drive the lane, suck in the defense and pass the ball out to someone for a jumper. There will be a big near Rondo ready to defend the shot. Since Rondo passes it and doesn't shoot it the big makes no effort to block the (non)shot. Since Rondo drove the lane and (because he didn't attempt a shot) nobody tried to block him some people think he passed up an open layup.

That might be true, but then we end up with a bunch of mid-range jump shots and it is hard to win with mid-range jump shots, even if they are open looks.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 03, 2013, 08:55:53 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

  Most of the people who think Rondo's bad for the team watch the game selectively and only see particular things they're looking for. They're the people who claim that Rondo slows the game down too much even though we play at a faster pace with him than without him, they're the ones who are praising our newfound transition game in spite of the fact that we aren't scoring more fast break points or scoring them more efficiently, they're the ones who are thrilled about how much better the offense is without him even though it hasn't improved at all.

  Those are the people who are "catching up" to you.

I can't speak for everyone, but i evaluate Rondo on whether or not he plays the game the "right" way. Too many times he will pass up open layups or open shots that would easily be two points in exchange for passing it out to another guy who might or might not make the shot. This is just...not very smart. If he didn't do this so frequently i might not have a problem, but he basically does this every game.

  Rondo generally only passes up open layups on fast breaks. Every game you see Rondo drive the lane, suck in the defense and pass the ball out to someone for a jumper. There will be a big near Rondo ready to defend the shot. Since Rondo passes it and doesn't shoot it the big makes no effort to block the (non)shot. Since Rondo drove the lane and (because he didn't attempt a shot) nobody tried to block him some people think he passed up an open layup.

That might be true, but then we end up with a bunch of mid-range jump shots and it is hard to win with mid-range jump shots, even if they are open looks.

  That's true but I don't think you can really blame Rondo for that.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: cltc5 on February 03, 2013, 09:21:12 PM
Doc, Danny, rondo or someone messed things up when they decided that rondo needed to be the focal point of the offense.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Spicoli on February 03, 2013, 09:28:50 PM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

Building this team around Rondo is insanity. Rondo is not good enough to build around. You only build teams around superstars not all-stars like Rondo.

These are the posts I don't understand. There are 2 "superstars" in the league by most people's definition of the type of player teams should build around. Chances of us getting either are slim. Chances of another emerging in the draft (let alone us getting him) are also slim.

We won a title with no "superstars" and 3 all-stars. You build a team around the best pieces you have. We should do what got us to a title and has kept us relevant, team basketball. Valuing the team over the individual.

The year the team won the title, Garnett was still a superstar in this league.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 03, 2013, 09:35:52 PM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

Building this team around Rondo is insanity. Rondo is not good enough to build around. You only build teams around superstars not all-stars like Rondo.

These are the posts I don't understand. There are 2 "superstars" in the league by most people's definition of the type of player teams should build around. Chances of us getting either are slim. Chances of another emerging in the draft (let alone us getting him) are also slim.

We won a title with no "superstars" and 3 all-stars. You build a team around the best pieces you have. We should do what got us to a title and has kept us relevant, team basketball. Valuing the team over the individual.

The year the team won the title, Garnett was still a superstar in this league.

  And the year we went to game 7 of the finals he wasn't, neither was PP or RA.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: OttawaCeltic on February 03, 2013, 09:36:54 PM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

Building this team around Rondo is insanity. Rondo is not good enough to build around. You only build teams around superstars not all-stars like Rondo.

These are the posts I don't understand. There are 2 "superstars" in the league by most people's definition of the type of player teams should build around. Chances of us getting either are slim. Chances of another emerging in the draft (let alone us getting him) are also slim.

We won a title with no "superstars" and 3 all-stars. You build a team around the best pieces you have. We should do what got us to a title and has kept us relevant, team basketball. Valuing the team over the individual.

The year the team won the title, Garnett was still a superstar in this league.

True that. "These are the posts I don't understand." :P
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: eugen on February 03, 2013, 10:01:32 PM
Is a MUST to send Rondo out from this team
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: lightspeed5 on February 03, 2013, 11:44:06 PM
rondo carried us on our backs last year and the 2010 finals year.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BASS_THUMPER on February 03, 2013, 11:46:15 PM
rondo carried us on his back last year and the 2010 finals year.

i think it's what u meant
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Celtics18 on February 03, 2013, 11:46:59 PM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

Building this team around Rondo is insanity. Rondo is not good enough to build around. You only build teams around superstars not all-stars like Rondo.

These are the posts I don't understand. There are 2 "superstars" in the league by most people's definition of the type of player teams should build around. Chances of us getting either are slim. Chances of another emerging in the draft (let alone us getting him) are also slim.

We won a title with no "superstars" and 3 all-stars. You build a team around the best pieces you have. We should do what got us to a title and has kept us relevant, team basketball. Valuing the team over the individual.

TP for the truth. 
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: danglertx on February 03, 2013, 11:50:26 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

  Most of the people who think Rondo's bad for the team watch the game selectively and only see particular things they're looking for. They're the people who claim that Rondo slows the game down too much even though we play at a faster pace with him than without him, they're the ones who are praising our newfound transition game in spite of the fact that we aren't scoring more fast break points or scoring them more efficiently, they're the ones who are thrilled about how much better the offense is without him even though it hasn't improved at all.

  Those are the people who are "catching up" to you.

I can't speak for everyone, but i evaluate Rondo on whether or not he plays the game the "right" way. Too many times he will pass up open layups or open shots that would easily be two points in exchange for passing it out to another guy who might or might not make the shot. This is just...not very smart. If he didn't do this so frequently i might not have a problem, but he basically does this every game.

  Rondo generally only passes up open layups on fast breaks. Every game you see Rondo drive the lane, suck in the defense and pass the ball out to someone for a jumper. There will be a big near Rondo ready to defend the shot. Since Rondo passes it and doesn't shoot it the big makes no effort to block the (non)shot. Since Rondo drove the lane and (because he didn't attempt a shot) nobody tried to block him some people think he passed up an open layup.

That might be true, but then we end up with a bunch of mid-range jump shots and it is hard to win with mid-range jump shots, even if they are open looks.

  That's true but I don't think you can really blame Rondo for that.

I'm not blaming him and I'm not sure blame matters.  It is what it is and wasn't working.  If Garnett and Bass are knocking down those 15-20ft shots like they are layups then it works.  If they aren't hitting we need to do something else offensively.

Now we are doing something else and it seems to be working better.  Plus, our defense seems much better.  At some point Rondo gave up playing anything but reach defense.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BASS_THUMPER on February 03, 2013, 11:55:01 PM
"trade Paul and Kg"
"trade Lee and Avery"
"what can we get for Bass"

lol...after rondo went down we wanna blow it up..now we are better without rondo..if we had lost to the clips today i wonder what new "get rid of" thread would have been born
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Clench123 on February 03, 2013, 11:59:15 PM
frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   


That is so laughable.  It's so ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.  I would like to have what you're smoking, bruh
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 04, 2013, 12:03:52 AM
I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit.

Then you get the players and coach to fit around Rondo, not get rid of your best player.

Mike

Yeah, so you keep firing everybody around you 'best player' until you find a lineup that can actually work.

Or alternatively you simply remove your 'best player' and immediately start winning games.

Hmm...tough choice there! Change one player...change entire team. 

Let me help you. 

When EVERYBODY on the team plays better when a certain player is out, then that player is your problem...not everybody else around him.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 04, 2013, 12:11:04 AM
This whole blame Doc thing is so laughable...it's an absolute joke.

People need to stop trying to point the finger at everybody else to try to protect their favorite stat stuffer. 

The fact is Rondo leaves, everybody plays better, we start winning.

How on earth can you blame Doc - the same Doc who was also coaching us when Rondo was here, and we were losing.

How can you blame the support players - the same support players who were also playing for us when Rondo was here, and we were losing.

It's utterly rediculous because the reality is so blatantly obvious, and it's just so amusing to me that after all of this the Rondo fanboys are STILL in denial.

How many of us have been saying for how long that this team is better when Rondo isn't on the court?  How many times have we quoted our negative on/off numbers when he's playing?  How many times have we said that our players share the ball and get involved more when he's not there, because they aren't standing falling asleep while he holds the ball?

The Rondo lovers constantly mock these suggestions and throw out the "you wait and see how bad we are without him" and yet I'm waiting, and I'm not seeing.

We beat New York, a top three team in the East, without Rondo. 

We beat Miami, the top team in the East, without Rondo. 

We beat Clippers, a top three team in the league, without
Rondo.

Our overall record is now something like 5-1 without Rondo.

What more do the Rondo fanboys seriously need to see in order open your eyes and accept the reality.

Rondo is our most talented player, but we are a better TEAM when he's not here.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 04, 2013, 12:13:37 AM
frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   


That is so laughable.  It's so ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.  I would like to have what you're smoking, bruh

Maybe you should have some, it might help you to see through the Rondo glasses and see true reality...
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Clench123 on February 04, 2013, 12:22:59 AM
frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   


That is so laughable.  It's so ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.  I would like to have what you're smoking, bruh

Maybe you should have some, it might help you to see through the Rondo glasses and see true reality...

Reality is we've won few games at home without Rondo.  Reality is we were once on a 6 game winning streak with Rondo before going on a loosing streak again.
Reality is we're not a contender without our best player (and yes, Rondo is our best player)
Reality is we won't beat Miami, New York, Chicago Bulls in 7 games without Rondo
Reality is that reality hasn't hit us yet because we've won few games at home
That is reality my friend
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Mazingerz on February 04, 2013, 01:40:09 AM
Some people tend to be shortsighted in terms of Rondo's meaning to this ball club. Rondo, Garnett, and Pierce have been together for quite a while and know each others movements.

It was the system designed by Doc that slowed the newcomers to the Celtics. Most of players acquired were freestyle players who do not want to be confined to a set play type of system.

I guess this is happening now where rondo is not around. When he comes back he needs to allow a little leeway for Lee, Barbosa, Green and Terry to thrive in. Doc's schemes are not suitable to the new look Celtic role players
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 04, 2013, 06:44:32 AM
This whole blame Doc thing is so laughable...it's an absolute joke.

People need to stop trying to point the finger at everybody else to try to protect their favorite stat stuffer. 

The fact is Rondo leaves, everybody plays better, we start winning.

How on earth can you blame Doc - the same Doc who was also coaching us when Rondo was here, and we were losing.

How can you blame the support players - the same support players who were also playing for us when Rondo was here, and we were losing.

It's utterly rediculous because the reality is so blatantly obvious, and it's just so amusing to me that after all of this the Rondo fanboys are STILL in denial.

How many of us have been saying for how long that this team is better when Rondo isn't on the court?  How many times have we quoted our negative on/off numbers when he's playing?  How many times have we said that our players share the ball and get involved more when he's not there, because they aren't standing falling asleep while he holds the ball?

The Rondo lovers constantly mock these suggestions and throw out the "you wait and see how bad we are without him" and yet I'm waiting, and I'm not seeing.

We beat New York, a top three team in the East, without Rondo. 

We beat Miami, the top team in the East, without Rondo. 

We beat Clippers, a top three team in the league, without
Rondo.

Our overall record is now something like 5-1 without Rondo.

What more do the Rondo fanboys seriously need to see in order open your eyes and accept the reality.

Rondo is our most talented player, but we are a better TEAM when he's not here.

  Have you pre-ordered your 2013 ECF champs tee shirt yet?
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 04, 2013, 06:55:33 AM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

  Most of the people who think Rondo's bad for the team watch the game selectively and only see particular things they're looking for. They're the people who claim that Rondo slows the game down too much even though we play at a faster pace with him than without him, they're the ones who are praising our newfound transition game in spite of the fact that we aren't scoring more fast break points or scoring them more efficiently, they're the ones who are thrilled about how much better the offense is without him even though it hasn't improved at all.

  Those are the people who are "catching up" to you.

I can't speak for everyone, but i evaluate Rondo on whether or not he plays the game the "right" way. Too many times he will pass up open layups or open shots that would easily be two points in exchange for passing it out to another guy who might or might not make the shot. This is just...not very smart. If he didn't do this so frequently i might not have a problem, but he basically does this every game.

  Rondo generally only passes up open layups on fast breaks. Every game you see Rondo drive the lane, suck in the defense and pass the ball out to someone for a jumper. There will be a big near Rondo ready to defend the shot. Since Rondo passes it and doesn't shoot it the big makes no effort to block the (non)shot. Since Rondo drove the lane and (because he didn't attempt a shot) nobody tried to block him some people think he passed up an open layup.

That might be true, but then we end up with a bunch of mid-range jump shots and it is hard to win with mid-range jump shots, even if they are open looks.

  That's true but I don't think you can really blame Rondo for that.

I'm not blaming him and I'm not sure blame matters.  It is what it is and wasn't working.  If Garnett and Bass are knocking down those 15-20ft shots like they are layups then it works.  If they aren't hitting we need to do something else offensively.

Now we are doing something else and it seems to be working better.  Plus, our defense seems much better.  At some point Rondo gave up playing anything but reach defense.

  It wouldn't surprise me if the Celts were playing better defense right now, the players on the court have been playing harder and with more focus than they have been for much of the year. I don't think the offense has been better. It's true that a lot of people are thrilled with our transition game (in spite of the fact that we aren't really scoring more points or converting our opportunities better) and they like our ball-movement offense despite our still struggling on offense but actual improvement would be nice.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 04, 2013, 08:01:39 AM
frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   


That is so laughable.  It's so ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.  I would like to have what you're smoking, bruh

Maybe you should have some, it might help you to see through the Rondo glasses and see true reality...

Reality is we've won few games at home without Rondo.  Reality is we were once on a 6 game winning streak with Rondo before going on a loosing streak again.
Reality is we're not a contender without our best player (and yes, Rondo is our best player)
Reality is we won't beat Miami, New York, Chicago Bulls in 7 games without Rondo
Reality is that reality hasn't hit us yet because we've won few games at home
That is reality my friend

very funny stuff  :D
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 04, 2013, 08:23:55 AM
frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   


That is so laughable.  It's so ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.  I would like to have what you're smoking, bruh

Maybe you should have some, it might help you to see through the Rondo glasses and see true reality...

Reality is we've won few games at home without Rondo.  Reality is we were once on a 6 game winning streak with Rondo before going on a loosing streak again.
Reality is we're not a contender without our best player (and yes, Rondo is our best player)
Reality is we won't beat Miami, New York, Chicago Bulls in 7 games without Rondo
Reality is that reality hasn't hit us yet because we've won few games at home
That is reality my friend

I believe we are 5-1 right now without Rondo.

Three of those games have come against undisputed championship contenders - Miami, New York and the Clippers.

Let me point some stats out for you in the three games we just played without Rondo.

1. Pierce is averaging 5 APG (1.0 above season avg)
2. Bass is averaging 2.5 APG (1.5 above season avg)
3. KG is averaging 2.6 APG (0.4 above season avg)
4. Lee is averaging 10 APG (2.0 above season avg)
5. Bradley is averaging 2 APG (0.9 above season avg)
6. Terry is averaging 5 APG (2.6 above season avg)
7. Green is averaging 3 APG (2.1 above season avg)
8. Barbosa is averaging 2.3 APG (1.0 above season avg)

Between all of those guys, that's a net total of 11.5 greater assists per game when Rondo is out.  Rondo was averaging 11.1 APG. 

1. Pierce is averaging 17.3 PPG (1.3 below season avg)
2. Bass is averaging 9 PPG (1.5 above season avg)
3. KG is averaging 13 PPG (1.8 below season avg)
4. Lee is averaging 10 PPG (2.6 above season avg)
5. Bradley is averaging 7 PPG (0.9 below season avg)
6. Terry is averaging 12.3 PPG (2.2 above season avg)
7. Green is averaging 15.3 PPG (5.4 above season avg)
8. Barbosa is averaging 11 APG (5.8 above season avg)

That's a net total of 13.5 PPG more from those guys when Rondo isn't here.  Rondo was averaging 13.7 PPG. 

What does all of this mean?

We get the same number of assists AND points regardless of whether Rondo is out there or not, the only difference is it's spread over the team rather than all coming from one guy - personally I'd say that's a good thing, because it suggets better ball movement from the team and that our offensive attack is coming in multiple different ways, from multiple threats.

Now, everybody loves to argue about how irreplacable Rondo's stats are, but the above (albiet small) sample proves otherwise.  His stats are completely replacable, because even if you simply delete him from the team (and do not bring any replacement in return) the other guys are clearly making up those numbers in his absense.

So, why are we paying $10M per year to a guy who gives us nothing that we don't already get?  Maybe we are better off letting him go in return for some guys who fill important voids such as rebounds or interior defense...or maybe let him go in return for $10M is cap space a year or two down the track.

Offensively our production doesn't really change with him, but defensively we are clearly better without him.  Net result is that we are better without him - assuming this current trend continues to hold up.

Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 04, 2013, 08:33:11 AM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

  Most of the people who think Rondo's bad for the team watch the game selectively and only see particular things they're looking for. They're the people who claim that Rondo slows the game down too much even though we play at a faster pace with him than without him, they're the ones who are praising our newfound transition game in spite of the fact that we aren't scoring more fast break points or scoring them more efficiently, they're the ones who are thrilled about how much better the offense is without him even though it hasn't improved at all.

  Those are the people who are "catching up" to you.

I can't speak for everyone, but i evaluate Rondo on whether or not he plays the game the "right" way. Too many times he will pass up open layups or open shots that would easily be two points in exchange for passing it out to another guy who might or might not make the shot. This is just...not very smart. If he didn't do this so frequently i might not have a problem, but he basically does this every game.

  Rondo generally only passes up open layups on fast breaks. Every game you see Rondo drive the lane, suck in the defense and pass the ball out to someone for a jumper. There will be a big near Rondo ready to defend the shot. Since Rondo passes it and doesn't shoot it the big makes no effort to block the (non)shot. Since Rondo drove the lane and (because he didn't attempt a shot) nobody tried to block him some people think he passed up an open layup.

That might be true, but then we end up with a bunch of mid-range jump shots and it is hard to win with mid-range jump shots, even if they are open looks.

  That's true but I don't think you can really blame Rondo for that.

I'm not blaming him and I'm not sure blame matters.  It is what it is and wasn't working.  If Garnett and Bass are knocking down those 15-20ft shots like they are layups then it works.  If they aren't hitting we need to do something else offensively.

Now we are doing something else and it seems to be working better.  Plus, our defense seems much better.  At some point Rondo gave up playing anything but reach defense.

  It wouldn't surprise me if the Celts were playing better defense right now, the players on the court have been playing harder and with more focus than they have been for much of the year. I don't think the offense has been better. It's true that a lot of people are thrilled with our transition game (in spite of the fact that we aren't really scoring more points or converting our opportunities better) and they like our ball-movement offense despite our still struggling on offense but actual improvement would be nice.

I wouldn't say peole are playing with more effort, I'd say they are playing with more energy.

I think that has a lot to do with the fact that they now have clear roles, or more importantly they actually HAVE roles.  It's not just "Get into position, stand and wait".  Everybody now gets a chance to run the offense, bring the ball up, try to create something.  It keeps the guys awake and sharp because they are involved in the game constantly - every time up 4 or 5 guys touch the ball, so you need to keep alert.

It's not easy to stay mentally alert and energetic when you aren't moving much, and guys couldn't move much before because they needed to be where Rondo directed them to be.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 04, 2013, 08:36:17 AM
frankly IMO...the loss of  Sully is more serious to this Celtic team than Rondo.   


That is so laughable.  It's so ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.  I would like to have what you're smoking, bruh

Maybe you should have some, it might help you to see through the Rondo glasses and see true reality...

Reality is we've won few games at home without Rondo.  Reality is we were once on a 6 game winning streak with Rondo before going on a loosing streak again.
Reality is we're not a contender without our best player (and yes, Rondo is our best player)
Reality is we won't beat Miami, New York, Chicago Bulls in 7 games without Rondo
Reality is that reality hasn't hit us yet because we've won few games at home
That is reality my friend

I believe we are 5-1 right now without Rondo.

Three of those games have come against undisputed championship contenders - Miami, New York and the Clippers.

Let me point some stats out for you in the three games we just played without Rondo.

1. Pierce is averaging 5 APG (1.0 above season avg)
2. Bass is averaging 2.5 APG (1.5 above season avg)
3. KG is averaging 2.6 APG (0.4 above season avg)
4. Lee is averaging 10 APG (2.0 above season avg)
5. Bradley is averaging 2 APG (0.9 above season avg)
6. Terry is averaging 5 APG (2.6 above season avg)
7. Green is averaging 3 APG (2.1 above season avg)
8. Barbosa is averaging 2.3 APG (1.0 above season avg)

Between all of those guys, that's a net total of 11.5 greater assists per game when Rondo is out.  Rondo was averaging 11.1 APG. 

1. Pierce is averaging 17.3 PPG (1.3 below season avg)
2. Bass is averaging 9 PPG (1.5 above season avg)
3. KG is averaging 13 PPG (1.8 below season avg)
4. Lee is averaging 10 PPG (2.6 above season avg)
5. Bradley is averaging 7 PPG (0.9 below season avg)
6. Terry is averaging 12.3 PPG (2.2 above season avg)
7. Green is averaging 15.3 PPG (5.4 above season avg)
8. Barbosa is averaging 11 APG (5.8 above season avg)

That's a net total of 13.5 PPG more from those guys when Rondo isn't here.  Rondo was averaging 13.7 PPG. 

What does all of this mean?

We get the same number of assists AND points regardless of whether Rondo is out there or not, the only difference is it's spread over the team rather than all coming from one guy - personally I'd say that's a good thing, because it suggets better ball movement from the team and that our offensive attack is coming in multiple different ways, from multiple threats.

Now, everybody loves to argue about how irreplacable Rondo's stats are, but the above (albiet small) sample proves otherwise.  His stats are completely replacable, because even if you simply delete him from the team (and do not bring any replacement in return) the other guys are clearly making up those numbers in his absense.

So, why are we paying $10M per year to a guy who gives us nothing that we don't already get?  Maybe we are better off letting him go in return for some guys who fill important voids such as rebounds or interior defense...or maybe let him go in return for $10M is cap space a year or two down the track.

Offensively our production doesn't really change with him, but defensively we are clearly better without him.  Net result is that we are better without him - assuming this current trend continues to hold up.

  Again, if you're confident that everyone you listed will play as well (or better) than that in a playoff series against a top defensive team when there are fewer transition opportunities then you're onto something. Is that the case?
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Roy H. on February 04, 2013, 08:55:13 AM
Let me point some stats out for you in the three games we just played without Rondo.

Is a three game sample -- including one game against the league's worst defense, another against the league's 21st rated defense, and a third game against a team missing it's star PG -- really meaningful?

I like the ball movement, but I think it's too early to say much.  As others have pointed out, the team played very well in 2008 without KG, as well.  Statistically, I'm sure we made up for a lot of his production.  That doesn't mean he was replaceable.

Let's see what happens the rest of the season, and make assessments after the playoffs.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: Fafnir on February 04, 2013, 09:15:46 AM
Let me point some stats out for you in the three games we just played without Rondo.

Is a three game sample -- including one game against the league's worst defense, another against the league's 21st rated defense, and a third game against a team missing it's star PG -- really meaningful?

I like the ball movement, but I think it's too early to say much.  As others have pointed out, the team played very well in 2008 without KG, as well.  Statistically, I'm sure we made up for a lot of his production.  That doesn't mean he was replaceable.

Let's see what happens the rest of the season, and make assessments after the playoffs.
+1 to this.

I'm glad the team is playing better, but people are really getting ahead of themselves. Remember we put up a 6 game winning streak to dig ourselves out of a hole before, and then promptly fell on our faces again.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: snowball on February 04, 2013, 09:21:32 AM
They look like a real basketball team
instead of a Rondo supporting cast.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: action781 on February 04, 2013, 09:11:47 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

For me, the issue is not when we're taking shots compared to other teams.  The issue is the efficiency.  We were 26th in the NBA in offensive efficiency.  And the ball was in Rondo's hands most of the time.  My issue lies with Rondo's over dribbling and Doc's allowing (or encouraging) this inefficient offense.

And over dribbling can even be acceptable in certain cases like if the other players on the team aren't good decision makers with the ball in their hands.  But thats not the case with the celtics, we have so many talented players on this team.

  When we take shots we hit them fairly efficiently. The main reason our offensive efficiency is low is that we're a terrible offensive rebounding team, we don't take (or hit) a lot of threes and we don't get a lot of shots at the rim. I don't think any of these issues are because of the ball being in Rondo's hands.

Interesting response.  I'll respond to a few things:

-We've always been a terrible offensive rebounding team, so I'm going to throw that out for blame.
-We don't take/hit threes could be a viable reason.  Losing Ray is a huge part of that and change from last year.
-We don't get a lot of shots at the rim.  If this is different from last year, who are the players shooting less from the rim?  Why is this changing?  I don't think lsoing Ray is the problem here.

If not Rondo (whos hand the ball is in), then is Doc (who designs the offense) solely to blame for this inefficient offense of all these long range 2's?  Or are the other 11 players to blame for attempting so many mid range jumpers?  I find it hard to lay blame in 11 other players for all doing the same thing.  And I'm not being rhetoric here, I'd genuinely like to hear your thoughts and discuss this.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 04, 2013, 09:13:26 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

For me, the issue is not when we're taking shots compared to other teams.  The issue is the efficiency.  We were 26th in the NBA in offensive efficiency.  And the ball was in Rondo's hands most of the time.  My issue lies with Rondo's over dribbling and Doc's allowing (or encouraging) this inefficient offense.

And over dribbling can even be acceptable in certain cases like if the other players on the team aren't good decision makers with the ball in their hands.  But thats not the case with the celtics, we have so many talented players on this team.

  When we take shots we hit them fairly efficiently. The main reason our offensive efficiency is low is that we're a terrible offensive rebounding team, we don't take (or hit) a lot of threes and we don't get a lot of shots at the rim. I don't think any of these issues are because of the ball being in Rondo's hands.

Interesting response.  I'll respond to a few things:

-We've always been a terrible offensive rebounding team, so I'm going to throw that out for blame.
-We don't take/hit threes could be a viable reason.  Losing Ray is a huge part of that and change from last year.
-We don't get a lot of shots at the rim.  If this is different from last year, who are the players shooting less from the rim?  Why is this changing?  I don't think lsoing Ray is the problem here.

If not Rondo (whos hand the ball is in), then is Doc (who designs the offense) solely to blame for this inefficient offense of all these long range 2's?  Or are the other 11 players to blame for attempting so many mid range jumpers?  I find it hard to lay blame in 11 other players for all doing the same thing.  And I'm not being rhetoric here, I'd genuinely like to hear your thoughts and discuss this.

BRADLEY AND LEE are going to the rim more, which is good!
Our inefficient defense ain't the long-range 2's which we're mad efficient at.
Threes.... Lee/Bradley/Green need more corner shots, Terry/Pierce from anywhere
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: gar on February 07, 2013, 01:53:19 PM
Article supporting the fact that Rondo was limiting other peoples touches which in my mind means that it is harder for other players to get into any kind of rhythm, hence the inconsistency and lack of production from players outside of the new big three.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4702036/grantland-are-cs-really-better
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: BballTim on February 07, 2013, 02:12:46 PM
Simply put Rondo was overall hurting this team. I've been saying so for 3+ yrs now. I always stated Rondo was a Great Player but not a Great Fit. I've been bashed for being a so-called Rondo basher for stating the all of a sudden obvious to many, I even been warned by a moderator in the past for bashing Rondo... ??? Now its an epiphany for most if not all to agree to what I observed 3 seasons ago. thx for catching up  :-*

Well I agree with your assessment. Some of the blame goes to Doc who should have recognized the problem especially with zillions of plays run down to the end of the 24 second clock. Rondo's like a caged Tiger he needs to run laps before game to get rid of all that wasteful enthusiasm. As far as the moderator, we're all being watched. Sign, warm air on your neck.

  Most nba teams take more shots at the end of the shot clock than the Celts. Why is that, if none of them are saddled with Rondo pounding the ball and running complicated plays?

For me, the issue is not when we're taking shots compared to other teams.  The issue is the efficiency.  We were 26th in the NBA in offensive efficiency.  And the ball was in Rondo's hands most of the time.  My issue lies with Rondo's over dribbling and Doc's allowing (or encouraging) this inefficient offense.

And over dribbling can even be acceptable in certain cases like if the other players on the team aren't good decision makers with the ball in their hands.  But thats not the case with the celtics, we have so many talented players on this team.

  When we take shots we hit them fairly efficiently. The main reason our offensive efficiency is low is that we're a terrible offensive rebounding team, we don't take (or hit) a lot of threes and we don't get a lot of shots at the rim. I don't think any of these issues are because of the ball being in Rondo's hands.

Interesting response.  I'll respond to a few things:

-We've always been a terrible offensive rebounding team, so I'm going to throw that out for blame.
-We don't take/hit threes could be a viable reason.  Losing Ray is a huge part of that and change from last year.
-We don't get a lot of shots at the rim.  If this is different from last year, who are the players shooting less from the rim?  Why is this changing?  I don't think lsoing Ray is the problem here.

If not Rondo (whos hand the ball is in), then is Doc (who designs the offense) solely to blame for this inefficient offense of all these long range 2's?  Or are the other 11 players to blame for attempting so many mid range jumpers?  I find it hard to lay blame in 11 other players for all doing the same thing.  And I'm not being rhetoric here, I'd genuinely like to hear your thoughts and discuss this.

  I'll get back to this when I have more time but a) we haven't always been a bad offensive rebounding team and our drop in efficiency is directly related too our drop in ORebs and b) Rondo takes more shots at the rim than our starting center and pf combined.
Title: Re: Rondo was slowing the team down?!
Post by: RyNye on February 07, 2013, 03:10:49 PM
I also love how people are citing this Grantland article as if it is proof that the team plays better without Rondo. Even though, you know, the article doesn't say that, and in fact implies the exact opposite.

The truth is, over the past 4 seasons, while Rondo-Pierce-and Garnett have shared the floor, our offense has been top 10 in the league. The perennial problem with the Celtics has not been the Big 3, it has been our inability to get consistent bench production.