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Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: JSD on February 02, 2013, 08:33:52 AM

Title: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: JSD on February 02, 2013, 08:33:52 AM
In the news recently, Lebron discussed how he is vastly underpaid. I think he is right. If basketball was like baseball and didn't have a salary cap, how much would Lebron command a year? I'm thinking $30-40 million sounds about right...

Now, him bringing this topic up is a whole other story.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Roy H. on February 02, 2013, 08:45:30 AM
He's right.  Michael Jordan got paid $33 million, and that was like 15 years ago.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Eigild on February 02, 2013, 08:46:04 AM
Of course he is underpaid if we talk actual market value. But why does he have to brack about and let us now? It lefts a bad taste and yet again doesn't leave him in the best light. It is estimated he earns around 40 mio. $ a year in sponsorships etc.
A good take on it http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2013/02/01/lebron-james-contract-underpaid-miami-heat-nba/1885161/
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: krook on February 02, 2013, 08:47:39 AM
(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9555/68597129093887255170175.jpg)
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 02, 2013, 08:52:47 AM
Bron is right. .     I don't really think it is fair for the NBA to tell limit the pay the players can earn.

no one tells Tiger Woods he has a pay cap.

Paying players is how you build a team.......seems wrong to limit what they can earn.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Moranis on February 02, 2013, 08:55:12 AM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Sketch5 on February 02, 2013, 09:17:17 AM
He's right.  Michael Jordan got paid $33 million, and that was like 15 years ago.

Jordan got payed that the last two seasons he played with the Bulls. And that was after winning 4 championships. Lebron only has one, and failed two other times.

Before that he made 4 million max. So Lebron can't really say much, even with inflation Jordan got payed less, but actually earned his big pay off his last couple seasons...
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: scaryjerry on February 02, 2013, 09:17:31 AM
He's right.  Michael Jordan got paid $33 million, and that was like 15 years ago.

He definitely is right...agreed.

But Michael Jordan earned that 33 million making role player money nowadays throughout most of his early career.

Just look at kgs earnings in his NBA career...well above what Lebron will ever get.

Buttttt hard to feel bad when he makes triple what he makes in the NBA in endorsements
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 02, 2013, 09:20:21 AM
Bron is right. .     I don't really think it is fair for the NBA to tell limit the pay the players can earn.

no one tells Tiger Woods he has a pay cap.

Paying players is how you build a team.......seems wrong to limit what they can earn.

LeBron could always go and play golf then.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on February 02, 2013, 09:25:34 AM
He's vastly underpaid. Too bad he was young.

Basketball and marketing alone, what he brings to the team, very underpaid.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Sketch5 on February 02, 2013, 09:52:01 AM
The thing is with the new cap now it makes it so every team has a shot of getting a superstar and compete.

So in a couple years he will be getting his value by NBA standards in a sense.

Its also hard to say what his value is when he's playing with two other all stars that can help carry the team. If Im paying a single player 40 mill, he would need to be able to carry the team with support players and maybe a Robin type player, and never loose to the Wizards, or twice to the bucks.

Most people don't get to do what they like to in life for a job, even less have jobs they enjoy. So for him to complain about not getting value in a time when most people took pay cuts to keep their jobs, or other people who use to make 70 grand a year now make 30 is a tasteless statement to make.

He also complained that he wouldn't get to watch the Superbowl because the team plane doesn't have tv.

Well heres two options Queen James. You come to my house, and watch the game, and I'll suit up and take you place and get payed your check for the game which will be more then i make in 15-20 years, I'd miss the bowl just you can see it, it would be my sacrifice for the Queendom.

Or not take the team flight, book on on Jet Blue and watch the game on their in flight tv, and Dunkin Doughnuts so you should be all good.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: BballTim on February 02, 2013, 10:02:07 AM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.

  The issue isn't that he's sacrificing a million a year or whatever, the issue is that he's worth at least double what he gets. It's a huge advantage for teams that have actual franchise players. Think about it, next year Josh Smith could be making comparable money to James. Who would you rather have?

  Imagine if you had the cap but eliminated the max salary. Someone would have offered James well more than the Heat did. Miami may have been able to sign him but would have lost 1 of Bosh or Wade in the process. It would be a more wide open league, with teams that had no superstars able to compete with teams that had those stars because of the quality of the rest of the roster.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Who on February 02, 2013, 10:11:51 AM
$60 million per annum
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: thirstyboots18 on February 02, 2013, 10:30:13 AM

Send him to the Lakers (large market team used to overpaying its stars), let him be taxed at 13.5 % by California, while paying him what he is worth.  California's budget woes solved.   ;)
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: staticcc on February 02, 2013, 10:36:46 AM
There really are some haters here. He was asked the question, he didn't brag about it.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: ScottHow on February 02, 2013, 10:52:29 AM
Poor guy
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Fan from VT on February 02, 2013, 10:53:54 AM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.

  The issue isn't that he's sacrificing a million a year or whatever, the issue is that he's worth at least double what he gets. It's a huge advantage for teams that have actual franchise players. Think about it, next year Josh Smith could be making comparable money to James. Who would you rather have?

  Imagine if you had the cap but eliminated the max salary. Someone would have offered James well more than the Heat did. Miami may have been able to sign him but would have lost 1 of Bosh or Wade in the process. It would be a more wide open league, with teams that had no superstars able to compete with teams that had those stars because of the quality of the rest of the roster.




This.  I've argued this repeatedly elsewhere that all the stuff about a hard cap increasing parity is BS if you also have increasingly severe individual max contracts. those two principals run in direct conflict of each other.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 02, 2013, 10:56:49 AM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.

How is he sacrificing his pay for the good of the team? Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't he payed the MAX?

It's one thing to not be paid what you're valued due to rules of the association, is another to leave money on the table that you could have gotten from your team in order to make the team better.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Fan from VT on February 02, 2013, 10:57:55 AM
Also, in fairness to him, these other "super teams" that are breaking up (OKC), no one there took less than the max to try to keep that team together.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Fan from VT on February 02, 2013, 10:58:35 AM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.

How is he sacrificing his pay for the good of the team? Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't he payed the MAX?

It's one thing to not be paid what you're valued due to rules of the association, is another to leave money on the table that you could have gotten from your team in order to make the team better.

No, he is not. He is under the max.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: BballTim on February 02, 2013, 11:05:11 AM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.

  The issue isn't that he's sacrificing a million a year or whatever, the issue is that he's worth at least double what he gets. It's a huge advantage for teams that have actual franchise players. Think about it, next year Josh Smith could be making comparable money to James. Who would you rather have?

  Imagine if you had the cap but eliminated the max salary. Someone would have offered James well more than the Heat did. Miami may have been able to sign him but would have lost 1 of Bosh or Wade in the process. It would be a more wide open league, with teams that had no superstars able to compete with teams that had those stars because of the quality of the rest of the roster.




This.  I've argued this repeatedly elsewhere that all the stuff about a hard cap increasing parity is BS if you also have increasingly severe individual max contracts. those two principals run in direct conflict of each other.

  Parity is exactly what you'd end up with. A teams with James wouldn't be able to afford 2 other max players, at least one of Wade and Bosh (if not both) would be spread onto other teams. LeBron's team would be worse (probably closer to the Cavs team that the Heat) so that teams with no superstar but more quality players would be able to compete with them.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 02, 2013, 11:08:04 AM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.

How is he sacrificing his pay for the good of the team? Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't he payed the MAX?

It's one thing to not be paid what you're valued due to rules of the association, is another to leave money on the table that you could have gotten from your team in order to make the team better.

No, he is not. He is under the max.

OK.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Fan from VT on February 02, 2013, 11:09:07 AM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.

  The issue isn't that he's sacrificing a million a year or whatever, the issue is that he's worth at least double what he gets. It's a huge advantage for teams that have actual franchise players. Think about it, next year Josh Smith could be making comparable money to James. Who would you rather have?

  Imagine if you had the cap but eliminated the max salary. Someone would have offered James well more than the Heat did. Miami may have been able to sign him but would have lost 1 of Bosh or Wade in the process. It would be a more wide open league, with teams that had no superstars able to compete with teams that had those stars because of the quality of the rest of the roster.




This.  I've argued this repeatedly elsewhere that all the stuff about a hard cap increasing parity is BS if you also have increasingly severe individual max contracts. those two principals run in direct conflict of each other.

  Parity is exactly what you'd end up with. A teams with James wouldn't be able to afford 2 other max players, at least one of Wade and Bosh (if not both) would be spread onto other teams. LeBron's team would be worse (probably closer to the Cavs team that the Heat) so that teams with no superstar but more quality players would be able to compete with them.

Exactly. Im in agreement, and seconding your sentiment. Having individual max contracts completely undoes the goal of parity because it encourages players to team up or consider other factors (location, etc) over the contract offered. Individual max contracts actually remove any compettitive advantage of a place like minny or indiana from getting a real star, because no one will choose one of those places over LA/NY.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 02, 2013, 11:12:33 AM
Personally I think there should be some sort of ranking system to evaluate players, and from there extrapolate max amount they'd be able to get. Not sure how you would go about doing that, and what other problems it will make, but I think that's the best way.

You want LeBron? Sure, give him a 30 million (random number, probably low balled) contract... You're going to have a tough time building a roster to surround him with, but hey, you have LeBron.

The current MAX contract structure is too dependent on time served rather on than talent of player.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Fan from VT on February 02, 2013, 11:14:52 AM
Personally I think there should be some sort of ranking system to evaluate players, and from there extrapolate max amount they'd be able to get. Not sure how you would go about doing that, and what other problems it will make, but I think that's the best way.

You want LeBron? Sure, give him a 30 million (random number, probably low balled) contract... You're going to have a tough time building a roster to surround him with, but hey, you have LeBron.

The current MAX contract structure is too dependent on time served rather on than talent of player.

If you believe in markets, the way to do that is just hav e a team cap and no max caps, so the max contract becomes market driven. 16 million per year in miami or 35 in Minnesota? That's a choice.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: JSD on February 02, 2013, 12:58:08 PM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.

  The issue isn't that he's sacrificing a million a year or whatever, the issue is that he's worth at least double what he gets. It's a huge advantage for teams that have actual franchise players. Think about it, next year Josh Smith could be making comparable money to James. Who would you rather have?

  Imagine if you had the cap but eliminated the max salary. Someone would have offered James well more than the Heat did. Miami may have been able to sign him but would have lost 1 of Bosh or Wade in the process. It would be a more wide open league, with teams that had no superstars able to compete with teams that had those stars because of the quality of the rest of the roster.




This.  I've argued this repeatedly elsewhere that all the stuff about a hard cap increasing parity is BS if you also have increasingly severe individual max contracts. those two principals run in direct conflict of each other.

  Parity is exactly what you'd end up with. A teams with James wouldn't be able to afford 2 other max players, at least one of Wade and Bosh (if not both) would be spread onto other teams. LeBron's team would be worse (probably closer to the Cavs team that the Heat) so that teams with no superstar but more quality players would be able to compete with them.

Exactly. Im in agreement, and seconding your sentiment. Having individual max contracts completely undoes the goal of parity because it encourages players to team up or consider other factors (location, etc) over the contract offered. Individual max contracts actually remove any compettitive advantage of a place like minny or indiana from getting a real star, because no one will choose one of those places over LA/NY.

So what you are suggesting is that you have one or the other or just a hard cap?

Edit - I get it. Just a hard cap. That way a team could send James $40 million then only have $20 left over to fill out the rest of the roster.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Fan from VT on February 02, 2013, 01:01:47 PM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.

  The issue isn't that he's sacrificing a million a year or whatever, the issue is that he's worth at least double what he gets. It's a huge advantage for teams that have actual franchise players. Think about it, next year Josh Smith could be making comparable money to James. Who would you rather have?

  Imagine if you had the cap but eliminated the max salary. Someone would have offered James well more than the Heat did. Miami may have been able to sign him but would have lost 1 of Bosh or Wade in the process. It would be a more wide open league, with teams that had no superstars able to compete with teams that had those stars because of the quality of the rest of the roster.




This.  I've argued this repeatedly elsewhere that all the stuff about a hard cap increasing parity is BS if you also have increasingly severe individual max contracts. those two principals run in direct conflict of each other.

  Parity is exactly what you'd end up with. A teams with James wouldn't be able to afford 2 other max players, at least one of Wade and Bosh (if not both) would be spread onto other teams. LeBron's team would be worse (probably closer to the Cavs team that the Heat) so that teams with no superstar but more quality players would be able to compete with them.

Exactly. Im in agreement, and seconding your sentiment. Having individual max contracts completely undoes the goal of parity because it encourages players to team up or consider other factors (location, etc) over the contract offered. Individual max contracts actually remove any compettitive advantage of a place like minny or indiana from getting a real star, because no one will choose one of those places over LA/NY.

So what you are suggesting is that you have one or the other or just a hard cap?

Edit - I get it. Just a hard cap. That way a team could send James $40 million then only have $20 left over to fill out the rest of the roster.


Exactly.

Right now, individual max contracts ENCOURAGES players to team up in the major markets that are fun to live in, because the max contract guarantees that 2-3 franchise players can fit on one team, and there's no benefit that non-desirable locations can offer to outweigh the desirable locations.


Edit - So a Team Cap (not necessarily a hard cap, i like the flex cap so that you can go over to keep players you've drafted, etc.) with no individual restrictions allows non-ideal locations to try to lure big-time players. It still protects a team's profit margin, which is what the owners all want. It does encourage teams to be more intelligently run, too, and punishes bad decisions.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Finkelskyhook on February 02, 2013, 01:02:18 PM
While the messiah is probably right...He, along with a very willing media have done a great job rehabilitating his image...

He should probably not screw it up by sounding Latrine Sprewellesque.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Fan from VT on February 02, 2013, 01:07:27 PM
Here's an interesting thought:

What if Durant and Westbrook had intentionally taken less than the max so that Harden could stay? We would never stop hearing about how great and team-oriented they were. James/Wade/Bosh did this, and it's rarely mentioned. It is so much about the story we want to tell going into a situation rather than the actual story that dictates sports narratives.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: JSD on February 02, 2013, 01:09:33 PM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.

  The issue isn't that he's sacrificing a million a year or whatever, the issue is that he's worth at least double what he gets. It's a huge advantage for teams that have actual franchise players. Think about it, next year Josh Smith could be making comparable money to James. Who would you rather have?

  Imagine if you had the cap but eliminated the max salary. Someone would have offered James well more than the Heat did. Miami may have been able to sign him but would have lost 1 of Bosh or Wade in the process. It would be a more wide open league, with teams that had no superstars able to compete with teams that had those stars because of the quality of the rest of the roster.




This.  I've argued this repeatedly elsewhere that all the stuff about a hard cap increasing parity is BS if you also have increasingly severe individual max contracts. those two principals run in direct conflict of each other.

  Parity is exactly what you'd end up with. A teams with James wouldn't be able to afford 2 other max players, at least one of Wade and Bosh (if not both) would be spread onto other teams. LeBron's team would be worse (probably closer to the Cavs team that the Heat) so that teams with no superstar but more quality players would be able to compete with them.

Exactly. Im in agreement, and seconding your sentiment. Having individual max contracts completely undoes the goal of parity because it encourages players to team up or consider other factors (location, etc) over the contract offered. Individual max contracts actually remove any compettitive advantage of a place like minny or indiana from getting a real star, because no one will choose one of those places over LA/NY.

So what you are suggesting is that you have one or the other or just a hard cap?

Edit - I get it. Just a hard cap. That way a team could send James $40 million then only have $20 left over to fill out the rest of the roster.


Exactly.

Right now, individual max contracts ENCOURAGES players to team up in the major markets that are fun to live in, because the max contract guarantees that 2-3 franchise players can fit on one team, and there's no benefit that non-desirable locations can offer to outweigh the desirable locations.


Edit - So a Team Cap (not necessarily a hard cap, i like the flex cap so that you can go over to keep players you've drafted, etc.) with no individual restrictions allows non-ideal locations to try to lure big-time players. It still protects a team's profit margin, which is what the owners all want. It does encourage teams to be more intelligently run, too, and punishes bad decisions.

I 100% agree. The current system is terrible compared to this idea.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: timobusa on February 02, 2013, 03:28:01 PM
if i could make 1 percent of what he makes, i would be a happy man
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Kane3387 on February 02, 2013, 03:29:48 PM
He is right.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 02, 2013, 03:33:16 PM
All these guys are over paid and should be thankful for the money they make.  They play a kid's game for a living.   I for one think they are over compensated.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Roy H. on February 02, 2013, 03:42:51 PM
All these guys are over paid and should be thankful for the money they make.  They play a kid's game for a living.   I for one think they are over compensated.

At the same time, though, they're the key pieces in a multi-billion dollar industry.

Sure, in a perfect world sports and entertainment figures wouldn't be the world's highest paid people.  However, when those people are generating the revenue they do, it's to be expected.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Snakehead on February 02, 2013, 06:03:49 PM
All these guys are over paid and should be thankful for the money they make.  They play a kid's game for a living.   I for one think they are over compensated.

At the same time, though, they're the key pieces in a multi-billion dollar industry.

Sure, in a perfect world sports and entertainment figures wouldn't be the world's highest paid people.  However, when those people are generating the revenue they do, it's to be expected.

Couldn't have said it better.

I find it puzzling that we take this attitude in America when we are often so against the CEOs and people at the top abusing power and taking all the profit.  The money is coming in... so if the players don't get it, they would.  Is that what we are asking for instead?

It's simple economics and the fact is these athletes are playing a game, sure, but its one of the hardest things to accomplish, having their job.  They deserve the pay.

If the money isn't there, you see lower salaries, like in hockey.  It's a business.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: mqtcelticsfan on February 02, 2013, 06:05:12 PM
if i could make 1 percent of what he makes, i would be a happy man

Not if the service you were providing your employer was possibly worth double what he's making.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Donoghus on February 02, 2013, 06:07:54 PM
He's right but he's also playing in a structure that was collectively bargained for by his own union & the NBA.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Donoghus on February 02, 2013, 06:09:46 PM

He's right but he's also playing in a structure that was collectively bargained for by his own union/ trade association & the NBA.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: jyyzzoel on February 02, 2013, 06:35:50 PM
I don't like Lebron, but Lebron is 100% correct.  The CBA has put a maximum on what a player's contract can be.  Unfortunately for Lebron, he is such an amazing player that his worth as a player is waaaayyy over that maximum that the league has set.

It isn't about making sure that you're getting paid millions of dollars.  It's about the principle - that in fact - the league is in fact underpaying him, and thus he feels like he is being stolen from/taken advantage of... which he is. 

Of course I understand that it was bargained for by the players association, but nevertheless, it doesn't take away from the facts that I have pointed out above, and that Lebron is 100% correct.  He's not being cocky, he's being realistic.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Smutzy#9 on February 02, 2013, 07:09:38 PM
if there is a guy that could command a ridiculous salary its lebron. Guy is clearly the best in the league. He leads (arguably) the best team in 3 different categories
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: wdleehi on February 04, 2013, 10:01:52 AM
I don't think he is complaining.



He and the other few true stars agreed to take a smaller piece of the pie so other guys could be overpayed.



And there are truly only a few of these type of stars.  The ones that brings fans to the TV and the store.



As of right now:

Lebron
Durrant
Kobe
Paul
Howard
Wade
Probably Blake

And if these teams are good:
Boston
LA Lakers
NY Knicks


And we are not talking the hardcore NBA fan that are there no matter what.  We are talking about the casual fan the the NBA (and other professional sports) work so hard for. 
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Chelm on February 04, 2013, 02:25:43 PM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.

How is he sacrificing his pay for the good of the team? Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't he payed the MAX?

It's one thing to not be paid what you're valued due to rules of the association, is another to leave money on the table that you could have gotten from your team in order to make the team better.
He is not paid the max.  He took less so they could sign Bosh as well (who also took sub-max).
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Chris on February 04, 2013, 02:29:11 PM
Lebron is right.  But, he has no one but his fellow players to blame.  It is the PLAYERS who want the max salaries, because that helps to spread the pie more evenly. 
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: kozlodoev on February 04, 2013, 02:30:46 PM
So, how much money will he be able to make if the league didn't exist in its current form? Yeah, I thought so.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: wdleehi on February 04, 2013, 02:34:11 PM
So, how much money will he be able to make if the league didn't exist in its current form? Yeah, I thought so.


And how much money would the league lose if all the top stars disappeared? 



Notice he is not asking for more money.  Just stating an opinion (which I think he is right about)
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: indeedproceed on February 04, 2013, 02:37:23 PM
So, how much money will he be able to make if the league didn't exist in its current form? Yeah, I thought so.

That's not really the point of his comment though. Assuming his current level of play (and that of the past few years), there is no amount of money allowed under the CBA that would pay him commisserately for the number of wins he brings, or by another standard, the amount of attention (and thus profits) he brings his team.

Its not like he's going to act on his comments, he's just stating a fact.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Q_FBE on February 04, 2013, 02:42:04 PM
Why doesn't he go back to Cleveland after next year (when he has three Miami Heat championship rings presumably) and team up with Kyrie Irving and Greg Oden? I am sure that he would be in the mix for more rings with Cleveland.

Maybe we can pick up Anderson Varejao to make room for the king.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: ewp on February 04, 2013, 02:45:53 PM
All these guys are over paid and should be thankful for the money they make.  They play a kid's game for a living.   I for one think they are over compensated.

At the same time, though, they're the key pieces in a multi-billion dollar industry.

Sure, in a perfect world sports and entertainment figures wouldn't be the world's highest paid people.  However, when those people are generating the revenue they do, it's to be expected.

It says way too much to my sensibilities when someone who makes the money that he does can complain at all about compensation.  Sure he's the best player and not being paid more than everyone else; boo frickin hoo.  He could have gone to New York or New Jersey had he chosen to and make more.  He chose not to in a play to make a "super team" to win "Not 5, not 6..." blah blah.  Now he got a single title and all of a sudden he can't get paid enough?  There are few athletes that I find harder to root for than James.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: wdleehi on February 04, 2013, 02:50:07 PM
All these guys are over paid and should be thankful for the money they make.  They play a kid's game for a living.   I for one think they are over compensated.

At the same time, though, they're the key pieces in a multi-billion dollar industry.

Sure, in a perfect world sports and entertainment figures wouldn't be the world's highest paid people.  However, when those people are generating the revenue they do, it's to be expected.

It says way too much to my sensibilities when someone who makes the money that he does can complain at all about compensation.  Sure he's the best player and not being paid more than everyone else; boo frickin hoo.  He could have gone to New York or New Jersey had he chosen to and make more.  He chose not to in a play to make a "super team" to win "Not 5, not 6..." blah blah.  Now he got a single title and all of a sudden he can't get paid enough?  There are few athletes that I find harder to root for than James.


Yet it is OK for an actor to ask for 20 million because his movies make so much money?



How many business people would allow to be so underpayed vs. the amount of revenue that they bring in?
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Brendan on February 04, 2013, 02:52:37 PM
I don't think NBA teams are really competitive businesses. I think its better understood that the NBA competes with the NFL and other luxury entertainment options for $. So I see no problem with the league setting pay rules.

At the same time - Lebron is probably worth 50-100m per year, depending on what market is he playing with and the team's ability to attract talent. (i.e. his value would be higher going to a team with no shot of drafting / signing a first team talent.)
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: ewp on February 04, 2013, 02:54:24 PM
if i could make 1 percent of what he makes, i would be a happy man

Not if the service you were providing your employer was possibly worth double what he's making.

I don't understand this thinking.  At what point does what my boss is making matter to me?  Well, I can honestly see if you're underpaid.  That stinks and I get it, believe me.  Life is hard when you're struggling to make ends meet.  I however don't believe any of these players are underpaid in any sense of the word, but most of them are extremely overpaid. 

With that said, I'd love to see them make less, and make the games less expensive for people to attend.  They'd be giving back to the fans, not the owners.  Not that I'm naive enough to think that would ever happen.  I'm just saying...
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: ewp on February 04, 2013, 02:55:32 PM
All these guys are over paid and should be thankful for the money they make.  They play a kid's game for a living.   I for one think they are over compensated.

At the same time, though, they're the key pieces in a multi-billion dollar industry.

Sure, in a perfect world sports and entertainment figures wouldn't be the world's highest paid people.  However, when those people are generating the revenue they do, it's to be expected.

It says way too much to my sensibilities when someone who makes the money that he does can complain at all about compensation.  Sure he's the best player and not being paid more than everyone else; boo frickin hoo.  He could have gone to New York or New Jersey had he chosen to and make more.  He chose not to in a play to make a "super team" to win "Not 5, not 6..." blah blah.  Now he got a single title and all of a sudden he can't get paid enough?  There are few athletes that I find harder to root for than James.


Yet it is OK for an actor to ask for 20 million because his movies make so much money?



How many business people would allow to be so underpayed vs. the amount of revenue that they bring in?

A) No, it's not.  But that's the way it is.
B) Most of them if they had their way.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: scaryjerry on February 04, 2013, 02:58:39 PM
I don't think he was complaining about it, he was complaining about not getting credit for sacrificing his own pay for the good of the team. Still whining, but a totally different sort of whining.

How is he sacrificing his pay for the good of the team? Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't he payed the MAX?

It's one thing to not be paid what you're valued due to rules of the association, is another to leave money on the table that you could have gotten from your team in order to make the team better.


He took the same contract as bosh and wade when he's clearly worth more so they could all play together.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: indeedproceed on February 04, 2013, 03:02:41 PM
All these guys are over paid and should be thankful for the money they make.  They play a kid's game for a living.   I for one think they are over compensated.

At the same time, though, they're the key pieces in a multi-billion dollar industry.

Sure, in a perfect world sports and entertainment figures wouldn't be the world's highest paid people.  However, when those people are generating the revenue they do, it's to be expected.

It says way too much to my sensibilities when someone who makes the money that he does can complain at all about compensation.  Sure he's the best player and not being paid more than everyone else; boo frickin hoo.  He could have gone to New York or New Jersey had he chosen to and make more.  He chose not to in a play to make a "super team" to win "Not 5, not 6..." blah blah.  Now he got a single title and all of a sudden he can't get paid enough?  There are few athletes that I find harder to root for than James.


Yet it is OK for an actor to ask for 20 million because his movies make so much money?

A) No, it's not.  But that's the way it is.

Why is it not 'okay'? They're getting back a payment commiserate with what they're bringing in. They're being paid fairly. If your job were to make your company money, in literally any other field, and you vastly out-performed anyone else in the industry in the world, wouldn't you want to paid on a scale that values your contribution? LeBron's point here is not that he took less money to play in Miami, his point is that even if he got the maximum allowable salary in the CBA, it still would not equal a payment comparable to the value he brings in.



Quote
How many business people would allow to be so underpayed vs. the amount of revenue that they bring in?

B) Most of them if they had their way.
[/quote]

I don't understand what you're saying here. Who is 'them', 'they', and 'their'?
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: ewp on February 04, 2013, 03:55:43 PM
Most of them is in direct response to the question that I read incorrectly.  :)  "How many business people would allow to be so underpayed vs. the amount of revenue that they bring in?"  I had read it as "How many businesses would allow people to be so underpayed vs. the amount of revenue that they bring in?"  It's tough to make sense when you respond to a question that wasn't asked....  :D

Why is it not OK to me has a lot to do with how I place value on professions.  I for one feel like police, teachers, firefighters, and many other professions for that matter, bring a whole lot more value to society than they are paid.  So if you base things on a purely monetary system, then I'm wrong, as these roles do not bring in revenue.  It's not to say that the players shouldn't be paid and paid well.  They (both good actors/actresses and professional athletes) a very small subset of the population which drives up their value.  I will grant you that they are paid commensurate with their market within the boundaries of their CBA.  It just so happens that their market overpays IMO, and when a person whines or complains about their pay when they make millions of dollars and chose to make less than they could have, I find it repulsive.  Most of us don't have the luxury of leaving money on the table and then complaining about it later.  If I did, I certainly would not be complaining about it.  But I don't know, maybe I wouldn't mind living in Roy H's "perfect world".

James made his bed, now he gets to lie in it.  At least he can take solace as he suffers with his unfairly low salary that he gets to lie in a multi-million dollar bed.  :)
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 04, 2013, 04:20:05 PM
I think James is right
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: indeedproceed on February 04, 2013, 04:20:21 PM
Most of them is in direct response to the question that I read incorrectly.  :)  "How many business people would allow to be so underpayed vs. the amount of revenue that they bring in?"  I had read it as "How many businesses would allow people to be so underpayed vs. the amount of revenue that they bring in?"  It's tough to make sense when you respond to a question that wasn't asked....  :D

Gotcha. Happens to me all the time.

Quote
Why is it not OK to me has a lot to do with how I place value on professions.  I for one feel like police, teachers, firefighters, and many other professions for that matter, bring a whole lot more value to society than they are paid.  So if you base things on a purely monetary system, then I'm wrong, as these roles do not bring in revenue.

Well, this is bringing in all kinds of points, and I understand what you're saying. But its also not like money saved by paying athletes or actors less is going to be pooled and given to civil servants (although firefighters/police/law enforcement in general, I think are paid pretty well if you're contrasting them against teachers). It kind of just muddies the whole thing and inflicts a personal irrational bias on it. Not that this is a bad thing in a conversation about the wages of the country's citizens in a social sense, but here in this conversation (about how much money athletes are paid vs how much they bring in) it might not be the best place for the comparison.

Quote
Most of us don't have the luxury of leaving money on the table and then complaining about it later.  If I did, I certainly would not be complaining about it. 

James made his bed, now he gets to lie in it.  At least he can take solace as he suffers with his unfairly low salary that he gets to lie in a multi-million dollar bed.  :)

Ah, I understand where your complaint comes from here, and I think maybe a clarification would be useful. There are two separate points:

1) LeBron James did opt to leave tens of millions of dollars (over the life of the contract) to play with both Bosh and Wade. He has never, in fact, taken max salary in a contract.

2) If LeBron James had taken the maximum allowable contract under the CBA, which would've been from Cleveland, he would still only be allowed to sign a contract that paid him less than $20 million dollars a season. He currently makes 17.5 million.  He'll opt out of his contract next year, and probably sign a new deal that gets him roughly the same amount of money. But for the wins he brings you (and people have broken this down), LeBron likely is underpaid by about 50%. His real market value according to estimated wins added is roughly $30 million dollars annually, IIRC.

Here were LeBron's actual comments:

Quote
"What I do on the floor shows my value. At the end of the day, I don't think my value on the floor can really be compensated for, anyways, because of the (collective bargaining agreement)," James said Friday ahead of the Miami Heat's game against the Pacers (7 p.m. ET, ESPN) in Indianapolis.

"If you want the truth. If this was baseball, it'd be up, I mean way up there."

"I have not had a full max deal yet in my career -- that's a story untold," James said.

"I don't get (the credit) for it. That doesn't matter to me; playing the game is what matters to me. Financially, I'll sacrifice for the team. It shows for some of the top guys, it isn't all about money. That's the genuine side of this, it's about winning. I understand that."

"I think teams understand that you need three guys to do big things; the "big three" thing is pretty cool if you can get it," James said. "To keep teams like this together, you may have to take even less because of the new CBA. I guess we'll find out."

So his point is, since I can't get paid what I'm actually worth, I might as well take a little less than the max to make sure I have great teammates.

Its actually a pretty cool sentiment.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: kozlodoev on February 04, 2013, 04:25:11 PM
So, how much money will he be able to make if the league didn't exist in its current form? Yeah, I thought so.
And how much money would the league lose if all the top stars disappeared? 

Notice he is not asking for more money.  Just stating an opinion (which I think he is right about)
He has every chance to disappear, if he so desires. He hasn't, so this is not the issue. On the other hand, playing a bunch of irrelevant games that undermine the product is a very real issue -- just watch some baseball.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: indeedproceed on February 04, 2013, 04:27:10 PM
So, how much money will he be able to make if the league didn't exist in its current form? Yeah, I thought so.
And how much money would the league lose if all the top stars disappeared? 

Notice he is not asking for more money.  Just stating an opinion (which I think he is right about)
He has every chance to disappear, if he so desires. He hasn't, so this is not the issue. On the other hand, playing a bunch of irrelevant games that undermine the product is a very real issue -- just watch some baseball.

That is really interesting. You're saying that baseball's extended season (and profits because of it) actually undermine the quality of the product, so people watch it less?

That is very interesting. I cannot believe I have never heard that before.

Seriously, no sarcasm.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: ewp on February 04, 2013, 04:35:10 PM
Quote from: IndeedProceed
Its actually a pretty cool sentiment.

Agreed, right up until the point that he complained about it.

If he wanted to be paid like a baseball player, he should have played baseball.  FWIW, although I have respect of James as a player, and don't care for him overall, I don't see this as all that different from when Latrell Sprewell famously made the statement "I got my family to feed." after calling an offer of only 27-30 million dollars insulting.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: wdleehi on February 04, 2013, 04:36:22 PM
Quote from: IndeedProceed
Its actually a pretty cool sentiment.

Agreed, right up until the point that he complained about it.

If he wanted to be paid like a baseball player, he should have played baseball.  FWIW, although I have respect of James as a player, and don't care for him overall, I don't see this as all that different from when Latrell Sprewell famously made the statement "I got my family to feed." after calling an offer of only 27-30 million dollars insulting.


Lebron agreed to take less to have better teammates.


Spree never signed a contract. 
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: kozlodoev on February 04, 2013, 04:58:56 PM
So, how much money will he be able to make if the league didn't exist in its current form? Yeah, I thought so.
And how much money would the league lose if all the top stars disappeared? 

Notice he is not asking for more money.  Just stating an opinion (which I think he is right about)
He has every chance to disappear, if he so desires. He hasn't, so this is not the issue. On the other hand, playing a bunch of irrelevant games that undermine the product is a very real issue -- just watch some baseball.

That is really interesting. You're saying that baseball's extended season (and profits because of it) actually undermine the quality of the product, so people watch it less?

That is very interesting. I cannot believe I have never heard that before.

Seriously, no sarcasm.
Let me rephrase that a bit, because it didn't come out right.

I'm saying that the current cap structure allows more teams to be competitive. Relax the salary cap, and there are two scenarios that are probable: (1) half of the teams are like the Miami Heat; however, they play most of their games against the equivalent of the Charlotte Bobcats, or (2) the league is 16 teams; more likely, since I don't think all of the franchises would be able to stay in business.

In both cases, it's likely that the pie will be smaller, so while LeBron may be getting paid more relative to overall league revenue, it's unclear to me that he'll actually be paid more.

Baseball was just an illustrative example of a sport where low-budget teams are in clearly disadvantaged position, even though most of them actually manage to muddle along.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: slamtheking on February 04, 2013, 05:17:45 PM
in terms of his value to the NBA and the Heat, he's absolutely right.

in terms of his value to society in general, he's grossly overpaid but that's true of all athletes and celebrities/entertainers
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: kozlodoev on February 04, 2013, 05:42:04 PM
in terms of his value to the NBA and the Heat, he's absolutely right.

in terms of his value to society in general, he's grossly overpaid but that's true of all athletes and celebrities/entertainers
His value to society is squarely determined by what the society is equal to pay for entertainment. People have the option to watch Joe Schmoe for half the price in their local indoor league, but quite clearly choose to pay more to watch LeBron James.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Neurotic Guy on February 04, 2013, 06:25:41 PM
There is one aspect of Lebron's self-assessment that perhaps he doesn't take into account when considering his compensation v. his value.  It's a component that many NBA players may take for granted and perhaps don't really appreciate in terms of its value.  I am speaking of the long-term, guaranteed contract.

Lebron James will receive about $80M over the next 4 years (if he decides to play out this contract).   Every single day one of a hundred things could happen to him that could cause him to be unspeakably OVERPAID.  That is actual value as far as I am concerned. 

Unlike the rest of us, Lebron will receive a paycheck for the next 4 years no matter what.  As a comparison, I as a self-employed person will not make a penny tomorrow if I am for any reason unable to perform my tasks.  Many of you have the benefit of being compensated for sick time and get paid while on vacation.  But how many of you have a guaranteed contract for the next 4 years? 4 weeks?

Lebron may be underpaid for the reasons already stated, but I doubt when he speaks of his circumstances that he takes into account the unbelievable benefit of the guarantee of $20M over the next 4 years regardless of whether he is injured, otherwise rendered unable to play, or if his skills deteriortate.

Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Eja117 on February 04, 2013, 06:44:02 PM
In the news recently, Lebron discussed how he is vastly underpaid. I think he is right. If basketball was like baseball and didn't have a salary cap, how much would Lebron command a year? I'm thinking $30-40 million sounds about right...

Now, him bringing this topic up is a whole other story.
There are totally teams willing to pay this...in Russia. So if he wants it he can go there.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Fan from VT on February 04, 2013, 07:03:06 PM
So, how much money will he be able to make if the league didn't exist in its current form? Yeah, I thought so.
And how much money would the league lose if all the top stars disappeared? 

Notice he is not asking for more money.  Just stating an opinion (which I think he is right about)
He has every chance to disappear, if he so desires. He hasn't, so this is not the issue. On the other hand, playing a bunch of irrelevant games that undermine the product is a very real issue -- just watch some baseball.

That is really interesting. You're saying that baseball's extended season (and profits because of it) actually undermine the quality of the product, so people watch it less?

That is very interesting. I cannot believe I have never heard that before.

Seriously, no sarcasm.
Let me rephrase that a bit, because it didn't come out right.

I'm saying that the current cap structure allows more teams to be competitive. Relax the salary cap, and there are two scenarios that are probable: (1) half of the teams are like the Miami Heat; however, they play most of their games against the equivalent of the Charlotte Bobcats, or (2) the league is 16 teams; more likely, since I don't think all of the franchises would be able to stay in business.

In both cases, it's likely that the pie will be smaller, so while LeBron may be getting paid more relative to overall league revenue, it's unclear to me that he'll actually be paid more.

Baseball was just an illustrative example of a sport where low-budget teams are in clearly disadvantaged position, even though most of them actually manage to muddle along.

I want to point out that posters in this forum are not advocating relaxing the salary cap in order to pay players like James more money, but rather keeping the cap as is but removing the individual max contract. This would actually increase parity in your example, because instead of choosing to play with other superstars for 16 million vs on their own team for 17.5 million, keeping the cap but removing the individual max would mean players are deciding whether to play with other superstars for 16 million vs on their own team for 25-40 million. And in that case, one team would only be able to afford 1 or 2 such players, so maybe the Bobcats would have one.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 04, 2013, 08:47:52 PM
LeBron is worth tens of millions simply for his revenue.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: slamtheking on February 04, 2013, 09:01:52 PM
in terms of his value to the NBA and the Heat, he's absolutely right.

in terms of his value to society in general, he's grossly overpaid but that's true of all athletes and celebrities/entertainers
His value to society is squarely determined by what the society is equal to pay for entertainment. People have the option to watch Joe Schmoe for half the price in their local indoor league, but quite clearly choose to pay more to watch LeBron James.
says a lot about society doesn't it that entertainers can actually make the amount of $ they make
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 04, 2013, 09:12:19 PM
in terms of his value to the NBA and the Heat, he's absolutely right.

in terms of his value to society in general, he's grossly overpaid but that's true of all athletes and celebrities/entertainers
His value to society is squarely determined by what the society is equal to pay for entertainment. People have the option to watch Joe Schmoe for half the price in their local indoor league, but quite clearly choose to pay more to watch LeBron James.
says a lot about society doesn't it that entertainers can actually make the amount of $ they make

It really doesn't say much... at all.... explicate please
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: fairweatherfan on February 04, 2013, 09:14:16 PM
in terms of his value to the NBA and the Heat, he's absolutely right.

in terms of his value to society in general, he's grossly overpaid but that's true of all athletes and celebrities/entertainers
His value to society is squarely determined by what the society is equal to pay for entertainment. People have the option to watch Joe Schmoe for half the price in their local indoor league, but quite clearly choose to pay more to watch LeBron James.
says a lot about society doesn't it that entertainers can actually make the amount of $ they make

Don't think it says anything more than a lot of people like spending their free time and money on entertainment, and a lot of people find the same things entertaining.


And LeBron's right; he makes more money for his franchise than they could ever pay him under the CBA.  He recoups it in quite a few other ways, though.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Chelm on February 05, 2013, 11:31:24 AM
There is one aspect of Lebron's self-assessment that perhaps he doesn't take into account when considering his compensation v. his value.  It's a component that many NBA players may take for granted and perhaps don't really appreciate in terms of its value.  I am speaking of the long-term, guaranteed contract.

Lebron James will receive about $80M over the next 4 years (if he decides to play out this contract).   Every single day one of a hundred things could happen to him that could cause him to be unspeakably OVERPAID.  That is actual value as far as I am concerned. 

Unlike the rest of us, Lebron will receive a paycheck for the next 4 years no matter what.  As a comparison, I as a self-employed person will not make a penny tomorrow if I am for any reason unable to perform my tasks.  Many of you have the benefit of being compensated for sick time and get paid while on vacation.  But how many of you have a guaranteed contract for the next 4 years? 4 weeks?

Lebron may be underpaid for the reasons already stated, but I doubt when he speaks of his circumstances that he takes into account the unbelievable benefit of the guarantee of $20M over the next 4 years regardless of whether he is injured, otherwise rendered unable to play, or if his skills deteriortate.
Interesting point.




So, how much money will he be able to make if the league didn't exist in its current form? Yeah, I thought so.
And how much money would the league lose if all the top stars disappeared? 

Notice he is not asking for more money.  Just stating an opinion (which I think he is right about)
He has every chance to disappear, if he so desires. He hasn't, so this is not the issue. On the other hand, playing a bunch of irrelevant games that undermine the product is a very real issue -- just watch some baseball.

That is really interesting. You're saying that baseball's extended season (and profits because of it) actually undermine the quality of the product, so people watch it less?

That is very interesting. I cannot believe I have never heard that before.

Seriously, no sarcasm.
Let me rephrase that a bit, because it didn't come out right.

I'm saying that the current cap structure allows more teams to be competitive. Relax the salary cap, and there are two scenarios that are probable: (1) half of the teams are like the Miami Heat; however, they play most of their games against the equivalent of the Charlotte Bobcats, or (2) the league is 16 teams; more likely, since I don't think all of the franchises would be able to stay in business.

In both cases, it's likely that the pie will be smaller, so while LeBron may be getting paid more relative to overall league revenue, it's unclear to me that he'll actually be paid more.

Baseball was just an illustrative example of a sport where low-budget teams are in clearly disadvantaged position, even though most of them actually manage to muddle along.

I want to point out that posters in this forum are not advocating relaxing the salary cap in order to pay players like James more money, but rather keeping the cap as is but removing the individual max contract. This would actually increase parity in your example, because instead of choosing to play with other superstars for 16 million vs on their own team for 17.5 million, keeping the cap but removing the individual max would mean players are deciding whether to play with other superstars for 16 million vs on their own team for 25-40 million. And in that case, one team would only be able to afford 1 or 2 such players, so maybe the Bobcats would have one.
I'd be intrigued to see what would happen to the NBA if this came to pass.  Bosh + Joe Johnson or Lebron?  What would the theoretical "cap" be on an individual?

The top stars would likely have to accept less than their max offer if they ever hope to win a championship.  I'd imagine there'd be more 2004 Pistons championships in this system.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 05, 2013, 08:29:34 PM
I think he should have kept his mouth shut, all it does is make him seem like a whiner- no matter how true it is.

When you see guys like Asik get 8 mill per season, Lebron would easily command 40 million in a vaccuum "value" system.  LBJ is clearly head and shoulders better than anyone else in the NBA and it's not even close.  He's probably the third best offensive player behind Durant and Carmelo (it doesn't matter if you can't shoot threes if you can get a dunk every possession you want).  And he's by far the best defensive wing player in the NBA, probably also top 3 behind Chandler and KG. 

People don't give Lebron enough credit.  He is not simply the best in the world, he is a league above everyone else as far as I'm concerned.  His efficiency ratings and overall impact is completely absurd.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: KGs Knee on February 05, 2013, 08:44:38 PM
There is one aspect of Lebron's self-assessment that perhaps he doesn't take into account when considering his compensation v. his value.  It's a component that many NBA players may take for granted and perhaps don't really appreciate in terms of its value.  I am speaking of the long-term, guaranteed contract.

Lebron James will receive about $80M over the next 4 years (if he decides to play out this contract).   Every single day one of a hundred things could happen to him that could cause him to be unspeakably OVERPAID.  That is actual value as far as I am concerned. 

Unlike the rest of us, Lebron will receive a paycheck for the next 4 years no matter what.  As a comparison, I as a self-employed person will not make a penny tomorrow if I am for any reason unable to perform my tasks.  Many of you have the benefit of being compensated for sick time and get paid while on vacation.  But how many of you have a guaranteed contract for the next 4 years? 4 weeks?

Lebron may be underpaid for the reasons already stated, but I doubt when he speaks of his circumstances that he takes into account the unbelievable benefit of the guarantee of $20M over the next 4 years regardless of whether he is injured, otherwise rendered unable to play, or if his skills deteriortate.

I think you over-blowing this tremdously.  There is nothing in the CBA that says all contracts must be garaunteed.  In fact, there are plenty of contracts in the NBA that are only partially garaunteed.

LeBron has a fully garaunteed contract because he's that darn good, and his talents are not easily replaced.  When you have an ability to do something better than pretty much anyone else in the wolrd, you get to name your price (to a point).
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: Neurotic Guy on February 05, 2013, 09:07:54 PM
There is one aspect of Lebron's self-assessment that perhaps he doesn't take into account when considering his compensation v. his value.  It's a component that many NBA players may take for granted and perhaps don't really appreciate in terms of its value.  I am speaking of the long-term, guaranteed contract.

Lebron James will receive about $80M over the next 4 years (if he decides to play out this contract).   Every single day one of a hundred things could happen to him that could cause him to be unspeakably OVERPAID.  That is actual value as far as I am concerned. 

Unlike the rest of us, Lebron will receive a paycheck for the next 4 years no matter what.  As a comparison, I as a self-employed person will not make a penny tomorrow if I am for any reason unable to perform my tasks.  Many of you have the benefit of being compensated for sick time and get paid while on vacation.  But how many of you have a guaranteed contract for the next 4 years? 4 weeks?

Lebron may be underpaid for the reasons already stated, but I doubt when he speaks of his circumstances that he takes into account the unbelievable benefit of the guarantee of $20M over the next 4 years regardless of whether he is injured, otherwise rendered unable to play, or if his skills deteriortate.

I think you over-blowing this tremdously.  There is nothing in the CBA that says all contracts must be garaunteed.  In fact, there are plenty of contracts in the NBA that are only partially garaunteed.

LeBron has a fully garaunteed contract because he's that darn good, and his talents are not easily replaced.  When you have an ability to do something better than pretty much anyone else in the wolrd, you get to name your price (to a point).

Not overblowing this at all -- never mind tremendously.  Just making a true point -- multiple years of guaranteed money has value beyond the current numbers.
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: KGs Knee on February 05, 2013, 09:18:09 PM
There is one aspect of Lebron's self-assessment that perhaps he doesn't take into account when considering his compensation v. his value.  It's a component that many NBA players may take for granted and perhaps don't really appreciate in terms of its value.  I am speaking of the long-term, guaranteed contract.

Lebron James will receive about $80M over the next 4 years (if he decides to play out this contract).   Every single day one of a hundred things could happen to him that could cause him to be unspeakably OVERPAID.  That is actual value as far as I am concerned. 

Unlike the rest of us, Lebron will receive a paycheck for the next 4 years no matter what.  As a comparison, I as a self-employed person will not make a penny tomorrow if I am for any reason unable to perform my tasks.  Many of you have the benefit of being compensated for sick time and get paid while on vacation.  But how many of you have a guaranteed contract for the next 4 years? 4 weeks?

Lebron may be underpaid for the reasons already stated, but I doubt when he speaks of his circumstances that he takes into account the unbelievable benefit of the guarantee of $20M over the next 4 years regardless of whether he is injured, otherwise rendered unable to play, or if his skills deteriortate.

I think you over-blowing this tremdously.  There is nothing in the CBA that says all contracts must be garaunteed.  In fact, there are plenty of contracts in the NBA that are only partially garaunteed.

LeBron has a fully garaunteed contract because he's that darn good, and his talents are not easily replaced.  When you have an ability to do something better than pretty much anyone else in the wolrd, you get to name your price (to a point).

Not overblowing this at all -- never mind tremendously.  Just making a true point -- multiple years of guaranteed money has value beyond the current numbers.

Your analogy is completely ridiculous.  The "rest of us" are likely not the best in the world at what we do.

As I said, when you are the best of the best at what you do, you get to name your price.  Part of that price is garaunteed dollars.  The fact the CBA limits the amount of money a player can make absolutely prevents a player like LeBron from getting his true value.

Do you honestly think he wouldn't get more money if not for contract limits?
Title: Re: LeBron James doesn’t think it’s possible to be paid his actual value under CBA
Post by: chambers on February 05, 2013, 09:20:00 PM
There is one aspect of Lebron's self-assessment that perhaps he doesn't take into account when considering his compensation v. his value.  It's a component that many NBA players may take for granted and perhaps don't really appreciate in terms of its value.  I am speaking of the long-term, guaranteed contract.

Lebron James will receive about $80M over the next 4 years (if he decides to play out this contract).   Every single day one of a hundred things could happen to him that could cause him to be unspeakably OVERPAID.  That is actual value as far as I am concerned. 

Unlike the rest of us, Lebron will receive a paycheck for the next 4 years no matter what.  As a comparison, I as a self-employed person will not make a penny tomorrow if I am for any reason unable to perform my tasks.  Many of you have the benefit of being compensated for sick time and get paid while on vacation.  But how many of you have a guaranteed contract for the next 4 years? 4 weeks?

Lebron may be underpaid for the reasons already stated, but I doubt when he speaks of his circumstances that he takes into account the unbelievable benefit of the guarantee of $20M over the next 4 years regardless of whether he is injured, otherwise rendered unable to play, or if his skills deteriortate.

I think you over-blowing this tremdously.  There is nothing in the CBA that says all contracts must be garaunteed.  In fact, there are plenty of contracts in the NBA that are only partially garaunteed.

LeBron has a fully garaunteed contract because he's that darn good, and his talents are not easily replaced.  When you have an ability to do something better than pretty much anyone else in the wolrd, you get to name your price (to a point).

Not overblowing this at all -- never mind tremendously.  Just making a true point -- multiple years of guaranteed money has value beyond the current numbers.

This is great in theory, but realistically, if Lebron were to hit the open market overseas, and there was no cap in the NBA...he'd be looking at 50-80 million a year at least- guaranteed.

He's disgustingly underpaid. Baseball players and football/soccer players make way more.

He's the best player in the world representing a company that makes its owners and directors millions of dollars. I don't know how the numbers lay out but they've got to be making 1 billion a year or at least turning over a few billion. Surely Lebron as the focal point should make more than 15-20 million from his contract, and I'm using other sports as a comparison.