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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: AB_Celtic on January 29, 2013, 08:28:17 PM

Title: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: AB_Celtic on January 29, 2013, 08:28:17 PM
Not that it matters now, but I'm beginning to see a trend here.

Quote
Zach Lowe says Courtney Lee has been very unhappy in Boston due to his frustration w/ Rondo's game...
Lowe was on Bill Simmons' show yesterday and mentioned that he's heard that Courtney Lee has been unhappy w/ C's Rondo led offense. First I've heard of this. Here's the exact quote around the 53 minute mark:

"I've heard through back channels that Courtney Lee has been really unhappy in Boston, because he feels like the whole offense is Rondo pounding the ball and doesn't get to do anything."

http://sulia.com/channel/boston-celtics/f/d5f8fe6d-f808-4cea-89f6-010409eee4bd/?source=twitter



EDIT:

Here's the audio clip. Skip to around 53-54 mins.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/grantland/player?id=8891371
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 29, 2013, 08:29:07 PM
Knew it. His best games were always when Rondo was out, remember?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: hpantazo on January 29, 2013, 08:32:53 PM
Not that it matters now, but I'm beginning to see a trend here.

Quote
Zach Lowe says Courtney Lee has been very unhappy in Boston due to his frustration w/ Rondo's game...
Lowe was on Bill Simmons' show yesterday and mentioned that he's heard that Courtney Lee has been unhappy w/ C's Rondo led offense. First I've heard of this. Here's the exact quote around the 53 minute mark:

"I've heard through back channels that Courtney Lee has been really unhappy in Boston, because he feels like the whole offense is Rondo pounding the ball and doesn't get to do anything."


http://sulia.com/channel/boston-celtics/f/d5f8fe6d-f808-4cea-89f6-010409eee4bd/?source=twitter

He may have a case there. It will be interesting to see how some of the players like Lee and Green respond now to Rondo being out.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ScottHow on January 29, 2013, 08:33:55 PM
Sounds like Ray
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Onslaught on January 29, 2013, 08:34:34 PM
If Rondo's "pounding the ball" is a problem with some of the team then that's on Doc.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Roy H. on January 29, 2013, 08:34:48 PM
Knew it. His best games were always when Rondo was out, remember?

Interestingly, two of his best four games by "game score" were indeed when Rondo was out. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leeco01/gamelog/2013/

His performance against the Knicks was nothing to write home about, though.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: esel1000 on January 29, 2013, 08:34:53 PM
Sounds like Ray

Next he's going to the Heat for the vet min
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: AB_Celtic on January 29, 2013, 08:34:57 PM
Sounds like Ray

Not that it matters now, but I'm beginning to see a trend here.

Yup. I think Doc needs to move away from this play style in future years if we don't want to alienate every capable 2-guard that comes to Boston.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BleedGreen1989 on January 29, 2013, 08:36:07 PM
makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of guys have issues with Rondo secretly.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Roy H. on January 29, 2013, 08:38:26 PM
I prefer an offense where there's more movement and sharing of the ball.  However, Rondo has shown that he can play in an offense like that; he did that moreso in 2008 and 2009.  Doc has consciously asked Rondo to control the ball more, which I believe is a mistake.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Cman on January 29, 2013, 08:39:04 PM
makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of guys have issues with Rondo secretly.

Well this is a problem that's not going to be solved via trade for at least a year, now that Rondo is hurt.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: AB_Celtic on January 29, 2013, 08:40:00 PM
Another thing to consider is whether we'll begin to see *The Rise of Courtney Lee* in the coming months. With increased minutes and no Rondo "pounding the ball," I could see him putting up 12-3-3 going forward.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 29, 2013, 08:40:17 PM
We will see how they fare without Rondo for the rest of the season, and since many of these players are locked up for multiple years, it could be a great experiment, whether we succeed or not, for we will have a chance to improve next year.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: gpap on January 29, 2013, 08:41:56 PM
Doesn't surprise me. I think Rondo was a big part of the problem while the Celtics were playing bad.

Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: eugen on January 29, 2013, 08:45:11 PM
Sounds like Ray

Next he's going to the Heat for the vet min

Again defending Rondo?! Ok than...let send our players to HEAT. So, HEAT will have a couple of rings in row, and Cs will be "proud" of Rondo
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: gpap on January 29, 2013, 08:45:30 PM
makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of guys have issues with Rondo secretly.

Well this is a problem that's not going to be solved via trade for at least a year, now that Rondo is hurt.

Not necessarily. I am willing to bet if Ainge used his head, there would be a team whose currently not contending willing to trade for Rondo and build around him next year.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: AB_Celtic on January 29, 2013, 08:46:28 PM
Sounds like Ray

Next he's going to the Heat for the vet min

Again defending Rondo?! Ok than...let send our players to HEAT. So, HEAT will have a couple of rings in row, and Cs will be "proud" of Rondo

I don't think that's what either of them were saying. They weren't taking sides I mean. They were just stating what has become a fact: Rondo ticks some people off.

I don't believe it to be entirely Rondo's fault, either. I'd put more than half of the blame on Doc.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Roy H. on January 29, 2013, 08:47:00 PM
makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of guys have issues with Rondo secretly.

Well this is a problem that's not going to be solved via trade for at least a year, now that Rondo is hurt.

Not necessarily. I am willing to bet if Ainge used his head, there would be a team whose currently not contending willing to trade for Rondo and build around him next year.

There probably is, but we'd get a pretty bad return.  If we're intent on trading him, wouldn't it make some sense to let him recover and re-establish his value?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: eugen on January 29, 2013, 08:48:55 PM
makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of guys have issues with Rondo secretly.

Well this is a problem that's not going to be solved via trade for at least a year, now that Rondo is hurt.

Not necessarily. I am willing to bet if Ainge used his head, there would be a team whose currently not contending willing to trade for Rondo and build around him next year.

There probably is, but we'd get a pretty bad return.  If we're intent on trading him, wouldn't it make some sense to let him recover and re-establish his value?

The prolbem is who is gonna get Rondo? Does any team have shown real interes on him? Till now zero interes
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: AB_Celtic on January 29, 2013, 08:50:31 PM
If at all possible, I'd LOVE if this thread didn't become another *Trade Rondo* thread with trade machine links being posted left and right. We have enough of those, and I'd really like to hear what people have to say about the "pounding the ball" comment and what we can do to remedy that without the use of trades.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: gpap on January 29, 2013, 08:50:49 PM
makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of guys have issues with Rondo secretly.

Well this is a problem that's not going to be solved via trade for at least a year, now that Rondo is hurt.

Not necessarily. I am willing to bet if Ainge used his head, there would be a team whose currently not contending willing to trade for Rondo and build around him next year.

There probably is, but we'd get a pretty bad return.  If we're intent on trading him, wouldn't it make some sense to let him recover and re-establish his value?

I suppose. I am just thinking in terms of "for this year."  My logic is trade the injured guy and see if you can get something of value which could help you this season, even if it's a player who's not great but can at least contribute something
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Roy H. on January 29, 2013, 08:52:06 PM
makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of guys have issues with Rondo secretly.

Well this is a problem that's not going to be solved via trade for at least a year, now that Rondo is hurt.

Not necessarily. I am willing to bet if Ainge used his head, there would be a team whose currently not contending willing to trade for Rondo and build around him next year.

There probably is, but we'd get a pretty bad return.  If we're intent on trading him, wouldn't it make some sense to let him recover and re-establish his value?

The prolbem is who is gonna get Rondo? Does nay team have shown real interes on him? Till now zero interes

I think plenty of teams have interest in a healthy Rondo.  Just because we haven't traded him doesn't mean other teams haven't inquired.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: action781 on January 29, 2013, 08:55:16 PM
makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of guys have issues with Rondo secretly.
I think so too.  Nothing to back that up with, but just a feeling.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 29, 2013, 08:58:43 PM
makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of guys have issues with Rondo secretly.
I think so too.  Nothing to back that up with, but just a feeling.

Except Pierce and KG and Bass and Dooling and Pietrus and Wilcox and Bradley.

But not Lee, Green, Allen, O'Neal (J)...

Hmmmmmmm, works with some but not others.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Sketch5 on January 29, 2013, 08:58:52 PM
makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of guys have issues with Rondo secretly.
I think so too.  Nothing to back that up with, but just a feeling.

I've been hearing on some of the sport shows that the locker room is tense because of Rondo. Not sure how true these are, and its funny its just coming out after he gets hurt.

If true and the guys play looser and they start wining, I wouldn't be surprised right before training camp Rondo gets moved. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: esel1000 on January 29, 2013, 09:00:20 PM
makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of guys have issues with Rondo secretly.
I think so too.  Nothing to back that up with, but just a feeling.

Except Pierce and KG and Bass and Dooling and Pietrus and Wilcox and Bradley.

But not Lee, Green, Allen, O'Neal (J)...

Hmmmmmmm, works with some but not others.

When has there ever been anything saying Green and O'Neal had/have problems with Rondo?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: bfrombleacher on January 29, 2013, 09:01:22 PM
How is this not entirely Doc's fault?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ManUp on January 29, 2013, 09:01:57 PM
I'll admit I'm not surprised.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: crownontherocks on January 29, 2013, 09:02:48 PM
A. Sherrod Blakely @SherrodbCSN 7m #CelticsTalk Rondo looks to get second opinion on ACL from Dr. James Andrew
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: AB_Celtic on January 29, 2013, 09:03:20 PM
A. Sherrod Blakely @SherrodbCSN 7m #CelticsTalk Rondo looks to get second opinion on ACL from Dr. James Andrew

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand Sherrod is back.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: PhoSita on January 29, 2013, 09:03:27 PM
Sounds like Ray

It's a fair criticism.  Rondo's style pretty much precludes the two guards he plays with from doing  much with the ball in their hands.  I'm sure Jason Terry has been frustrated by that at times, too.  Not to mention Barbosa.

But hey, they'll all get their chance now.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ScottHow on January 29, 2013, 09:03:37 PM
I'll admit I'm not surprised.

Ha. Nice Sig, it's much improved.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: nickagneta on January 29, 2013, 09:03:50 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Quinn on January 29, 2013, 09:05:13 PM
makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of guys have issues with Rondo secretly.
I think so too.  Nothing to back that up with, but just a feeling.

I've been hearing on some of the sport shows that the locker room is tense because of Rondo. Not sure how true these are, and its funny its just coming out after he gets hurt.

If true and the guys play looser and they start wining, I wouldn't be surprised right before training camp Rondo gets moved.

Part of me wonders if that's partly because of how popular rondo is as well. He's probably in the top ten-fifteen most popular athletes In sports right now and whether he embraces it or not right now he garnishes a ton of extra media attention. Whether or not the team is winning he's the young star and the spotlights always on him
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 29, 2013, 09:05:54 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

We're not a good team and he is only telling what many have not said. Take off your Rondo pants and see the other side to the situation. Lee has a point and is a great player, and his opinions do count. I, for one, think he is right.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Yogi on January 29, 2013, 09:06:39 PM
I've heard through some back channels that the economy is going to collapse and every one should send me their money for safe keeping.  Please ignore any direct quote from economists because they are just maintaining an image.  My sources are very reliable.  They are back channels. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: kgainez on January 29, 2013, 09:07:30 PM
Sounds like Ray

Not that it matters now, but I'm beginning to see a trend here.

Yup. I think Doc needs to move away from this play style in future years if we don't want to alienate every capable 2-guard that comes to Boston.

i started another thread that said this and everyone wanted my head. glad you guys see it!
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: rondohondo on January 29, 2013, 09:07:35 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

We're not a good team and he is only telling what many have not said. Take off your Rondo pants and see the other side to the situation. Lee has a point and is a great player, and his opinions do count. I, for one, think he is right.

lee is a great player now? ??? ::)
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ScottHow on January 29, 2013, 09:08:09 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

tp for you sir
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticSooner on January 29, 2013, 09:10:50 PM
It's a double-edged sword. Doc wants to turn the keys over to Rondo but at times the ball movement suffers because of it. We'll see how the guards play now without him. C's are really going to need them to up their game.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: gpap on January 29, 2013, 09:11:37 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

Ever think maybe the problem is with Rondo? Every time I see Lee playing, he's hustling his as* off.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: nickagneta on January 29, 2013, 09:12:11 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

We're not a good team and he is only telling what many have not said. Take off your Rondo pants and see the other side to the situation. Lee has a point and is a great player, and his opinions do count. I, for one, think he is right.
The reason we are not a good team probably has more to do with so many players that want things done their way and want their touches than it has to do with Rondo.

Lee, Barbosa and Bass have all complained about getting time and touches. That's never happened here during the Big Three era because it was TEAM first. I don't see Sully, Pierce, KG, or Bradley doing that. Just players that want their games not being sacrificed for the good of the team.

Seems to me this must be the reason this guy has been on 4 teams in 5 years.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: kgainez on January 29, 2013, 09:13:00 PM
and secondly, you all are acting like this isn't anything more than a glorified rumor.

The thing with Ray and Bass is they openly said these things. Don't think Courtney is THAT dumb. Though, I do think if he has a problem he should shut up (which he has).

I think guys are going to love their opportunities for the next couple games and rise to the occasion.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 09:14:53 PM
I've seen Terry frustrated a few times already when he's open in the corner and the pass is not going to him, even on those games when he's actually hitting his shots.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: action781 on January 29, 2013, 09:16:32 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.
Lee has not gone out and said this to the media.  Have you (or anyone) heard him say it?  Lowe says he got this out of "back channels".  Lee is entitled to his feelings and opinions and he's allowed to share those opinions with who he is close to.  If that leaks, it leaks, but he's not going out and selfishly complaining about it publicly.  And when we have as much offensive talent as we do and our offense is as inefficient as it is, well there are 2 natural places to blame - the guy designing the offense (Doc) or the guy running the offense (Rondo).

If the 2008 celtics were under .500 at this point in the season, I have a feeling there would have been grumbling.  I think if everything was ticking, Courtney wouldn't be a unhappy at all.  I believe there is reason for EVERYONE on this team to be unhappy with how the offense is performing and because it is performing far lower than what is expected of them.  Where you place your blame... like I said I think it comes down to 2 possible places.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 09:18:06 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

We're not a good team and he is only telling what many have not said. Take off your Rondo pants and see the other side to the situation. Lee has a point and is a great player, and his opinions do count. I, for one, think he is right.
The reason we are not a good team probably has more to do with so many players that want things done their way and want their touches than it has to do with Rondo.

Lee, Barbosa and Bass have all complained about getting time and touches. That's never happened here during the Big Three era because it was TEAM first. I don't see Sully, Pierce, KG, or Bradley doing that. Just players that want their games not being sacrificed for the good of the team.

Seems to me this must be the reason this guy has been on 4 teams in 5 years.

What??? I do say you have a very poor recollection of what has happened in the Big Three era... unless you mean the original one.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 29, 2013, 09:19:33 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

We're not a good team and he is only telling what many have not said. Take off your Rondo pants and see the other side to the situation. Lee has a point and is a great player, and his opinions do count. I, for one, think he is right.
The reason we are not a good team probably has more to do with so many players that want things done their way and want their touches than it has to do with Rondo.

Lee, Barbosa and Bass have all complained about getting time and touches. That's never happened here during the Big Three era because it was TEAM first. I don't see Sully, Pierce, KG, or Bradley doing that. Just players that want their games not being sacrificed for the good of the team.

Seems to me this must be the reason this guy has been on 4 teams in 5 years.

When he was faded from Orlando, it was because the Nets saw talent in him.
When he went to Houston, they needed him gone so the salaries could match.
Finally, Lee and Ainge saw Lee was a great player and thus traded for him.
He's a solid role player and the quintessential NBA player too.
He will have a job for a while, for a reason.
And with his experience, it's clear he knows how teams work, since he never complained in Orlando or Houston or New Jersey.

Do your research and stop being such a homer. Lee is entitled to his opinion.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: kgainez on January 29, 2013, 09:20:01 PM
You've got to be crazy if you don't notice that Rondo looks off Green, Lee and sometimes JET. I've seen it with my own eyes. He defers to PP and KG.

And I don't think there's a new guy here who's sad and crushed in their heart that Rondo is hurt. It's like 'shucks, well let's move on'...and I really think they will. Once they get into more of a motion offense we have multiple threats. We really do, but no one seems to notice that. And we allow PP and KG to close out games. I really love Jeff's comparison of what we could be to the championship Mavericks. That's SO spot on.

You had the games when JET went completely off. You had the games when Shawn Marion was going nuts. You even had games where Stevenson was going in. AND EVEN IAN MAHIMI!! (hey Fab Melo)...I just haven't give up all hope.

and this Rondo injury means we have to shake things up and adopt a new system. Doesn't mean Rondo sucks. Just means it's time for something new.

And to say Bass and Barbosa 'complained' about their touches is really...untrue. They more or less referenced it to something else (like bad numbers).
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ssspence on January 29, 2013, 09:20:52 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

Think you might be getting just a tad carried away here, considering Lee's actually done no complaining at all?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 29, 2013, 09:21:30 PM
You've got to be crazy if you don't notice that Rondo looks off Green, Lee and sometimes JET. I've seen it with my own eyes. He defers to PP and KG.

And I don't think there's a new guy here who's sad and crushed in their heart that Rondo is hurt. It's like 'shucks, well let's move on'...and I really think they will. Once they get into more of a motion offense we have multiple threats. We really do, but no one seems to notice that. And we allow PP and KG to close out games. I really love Jeff's comparison of what we could be to the championship Mavericks. That's SO spot on.

You had the games when JET went completely off. You had the games when Shawn Marion was going nuts. You even had games where Stevenson was going in. AND EVEN IAN MAHIMI!! (hey Fab Melo)...I just haven't give up all hope.

and this Rondo injury means we have to shake things up and adopt a new system. Doesn't mean Rondo sucks. Just means it's time for something new.

And to say Bass and Barbosa 'complained' about their touches is really...untrue. They more or less referenced it to something else (like bad numbers).

Totally agree. Sometimes you have to see fault in Rondo even though he's the best PG in the league.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: moiso on January 29, 2013, 09:23:45 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

We're not a good team and he is only telling what many have not said. Take off your Rondo pants and see the other side to the situation. Lee has a point and is a great player, and his opinions do count. I, for one, think he is right.:
Is Lee as great as Iverson?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: nickagneta on January 29, 2013, 09:25:28 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Celtics18 on January 29, 2013, 09:25:57 PM
I can't take this nonsense about "touches" anymore.  The best offensive players on the team get the most touches.  Call me insane, but that sounds about right to me. 

The Celtics are actually one of the teams that spread the rock around the most compared to most other NBA teams. 

Also, I'm really tired of these sports "reporters" and their rumors coming from reliable, unnamed sources.  I, basically, don't believe anything anymore unless somebody is directly quoted. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 09:27:56 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

ORRRRRRRRR, we can try and coax Rondo to stop pounding the ball for 20 seconds of the offense, and move the ball like basketball was intended to be played, and get the most of out this team.

How a team with Terry isn't running pick-and-roll plays with KG constantly is beyond me.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 29, 2013, 09:28:20 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

We're not a good team and he is only telling what many have not said. Take off your Rondo pants and see the other side to the situation. Lee has a point and is a great player, and his opinions do count. I, for one, think he is right.:
Is Lee as great as Iverson?

Why is that relevant at all?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: StartOrien on January 29, 2013, 09:29:08 PM
Also, I'm really tired of these sports "reporters" and their rumors coming from reliable, unnamed sources.  I, basically, don't believe anything anymore unless somebody is directly quoted.

Zack Lowe's the best writer going for the NBA. He might not be a 'reporter' like Woj, but he's shown to be nothing but credible.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: syfy9 on January 29, 2013, 09:29:21 PM
I'm pretty sure I'd much rather have fun playing with Nash, Kidd, etc than Rondo. It doesn't really matter if he's a scoring point or a pass first point - If the team can't get 3 or 4 clean passes/swings in each set, it's difficult for the wings to get into rhythm. Touching the ball means so much.

That being said, Rondo's style of play is effective and he's one of the best ball handlers in the league.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 29, 2013, 09:29:37 PM
Also, I'm really tired of these sports "reporters" and their rumors coming from reliable, unnamed sources.  I, basically, don't believe anything anymore unless somebody is directly quoted.

Zack Lowe's the best writer going for the NBA. He might not be a 'reporter' like Woj, but he's shown to be nothing but credible.

Lowe is quite credible.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Celtics18 on January 29, 2013, 09:30:59 PM
Also, I'm really tired of these sports "reporters" and their rumors coming from reliable, unnamed sources.  I, basically, don't believe anything anymore unless somebody is directly quoted.

Zack Lowe's the best writer going for the NBA. He might not be a 'reporter' like Woj, but he's shown to be nothing but credible.

I don't care if it's coming from Woodward and Bernstein,  I'm not going to believe in unsourced, unquoted rumors. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: bfrombleacher on January 29, 2013, 09:31:30 PM
I'm pretty sure I'd much rather have fun playing with Nash, Kidd, etc than Rondo. It doesn't really matter if he's a scoring point or a pass first point - If the team can't get 3 or 4 clean passes/swings in each set, it's difficult for the wings to get into rhythm. Touching the ball means so much.

That being said, Rondo's style of play is effective and he's one of the best ball handlers in the league.

DOC'S system.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 29, 2013, 09:31:57 PM
Also, I'm really tired of these sports "reporters" and their rumors coming from reliable, unnamed sources.  I, basically, don't believe anything anymore unless somebody is directly quoted.

Zack Lowe's the best writer going for the NBA. He might not be a 'reporter' like Woj, but he's shown to be nothing but credible.

I don't care if it's coming from Woodward and Bernstein,  I'm not going to believe in unsourced, unquoted rumors.

Not even Woj?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: kgainez on January 29, 2013, 09:32:08 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ScoobyDoo on January 29, 2013, 09:34:25 PM
Rondo has a dominant personality and when he's on the floor we are a point guard dominant team. He dictates everything.

I love Rondo, want him as a Celtic long term. But I would use his talents differently than they're currently being used.

1. I would keep the hard push on the break with him at the head, that's a no brainer.

2. I'd use him a lot more in pick and rolls and try to get him into the lane more - somewhere he doesn't go as often as I'd like.

3. I'd have a lot less of him pounding the ball and would like to see more motion in the offense with Rondo doing some of the slashing and cutting with other guys being given the chance to create as well. Green on the wing, Lee on the drive, Sully in the post, cutters around him.

With Rondo out - other players are going to now feel more freedom to be assertive and aggressive. Whether they're successful as a unit remains to be seen. But we could see some nice games from multiple players start to happen.

And I could understand why players feel restricted in our offense with Rondo pounding the ball at the top.

In the end though, the ideal scenario would be to maximize Rondo's drive and dish ability in the break and in the half court while also allowing more creativity and involvement.   

My two cents from the arm chair.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Juneauz on January 29, 2013, 09:39:20 PM
Even though I don't believe this kind of rumor...

There's one very easy solution: trade Lee!
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Celtics18 on January 29, 2013, 09:39:32 PM
Also, I'm really tired of these sports "reporters" and their rumors coming from reliable, unnamed sources.  I, basically, don't believe anything anymore unless somebody is directly quoted.

Zack Lowe's the best writer going for the NBA. He might not be a 'reporter' like Woj, but he's shown to be nothing but credible.

I don't care if it's coming from Woodward and Bernstein,  I'm not going to believe in unsourced, unquoted rumors.

Not even Woj?

If he's writing stuff about "what his sources tell him" without quoting or naming those sources, I'm going to be doubtful, for sure. 

I've always taken "unnamed sources" as Inquirer style journalism.  I'll bet if and when Courtney Lee is asked about these rumors, he'll flatly deny them.  Of course, at that point, most people will just say he's just lying and choose to believe Zach Lowe's "sources" instead. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ssspence on January 29, 2013, 09:39:47 PM

Also, I'm really tired of these sports "reporters" and their rumors coming from reliable, unnamed sources.  I, basically, don't believe anything anymore unless somebody is directly quoted.

What sports 'insider' quotes their source directly? If you don't like it -- then don't listen / read. You'll know less about the realities of your team off the court, but at least you won't be violating your own personal if unusual and otherwise nonsensical standards for insider reporting practices.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: nickagneta on January 29, 2013, 09:40:29 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

ORRRRRRRRR, we can try and coax Rondo to stop pounding the ball for 20 seconds of the offense, and move the ball like basketball was intended to be played, and get the most of out this team.

How a team with Terry isn't running pick-and-roll plays with KG constantly is beyond me.
The whole Rondo pounds the ball too much and its his fault is complete hogwash IMO. People have been saying it for 2-3 years now because 2-3 times a game it happens.

But why does it happen? Could the other team's defense have anything to do with it? Could players not moving off the ball have anything to do with it? Could players not running the play right have anything to do with it? Could players not be open have anything to do with it? Or could Rondo seeing certain players looking for a shot that they can't hit or knows they will break the play to play hero ball have anything to do with it?

Of course they do? But people see a few plays a game where rondo is dribbling and its all on Rondo? Right!!

Not saying he doesn't over dribble on occasion or miss the wide open man but he doesn't just pound the ball and ruin the C's offense as much as people say.

Rondo's a [dang] smart basketball player. He knows this team can't succeed with just lazily shooting mid range jumpers, which is what just about the whole roster wants to do. If he holds it, maybe its because he is waiting for a player to get in the post or looking for a cutter going to the basket which this team needs desperately.

I just think this whole "Rondo just pounds the ball" is an easy way to scapegoat Rondo and doesn't look at the big picture of what is really happening on the court.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: nickagneta on January 29, 2013, 09:42:40 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 09:48:47 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

The 2nd unit has been outplaying the starters for quite a bit now.


I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

ORRRRRRRRR, we can try and coax Rondo to stop pounding the ball for 20 seconds of the offense, and move the ball like basketball was intended to be played, and get the most of out this team.

How a team with Terry isn't running pick-and-roll plays with KG constantly is beyond me.
The whole Rondo pounds the ball too much and its his fault is complete hogwash IMO. People have been saying it for 2-3 years now because 2-3 times a game it happens.

But why does it happen? Could the other team's defense have anything to do with it? Could players not moving off the ball have anything to do with it? Could players not running the play right have anything to do with it? Could players not be open have anything to do with it? Or could Rondo seeing certain players looking for a shot that they can't hit or knows they will break the play to play hero ball have anything to do with it?

Of course they do? But people see a few plays a game where rondo is dribbling and its all on Rondo? Right!!

Not saying he doesn't over dribble on occasion or miss the wide open man but he doesn't just pound the ball and ruin the C's offense as much as people say.

Rondo's a [dang] smart basketball player. He knows this team can't succeed with just lazily shooting mid range jumpers, which is what just about the whole roster wants to do. If he holds it, maybe its because he is waiting for a player to get in the post or looking for a cutter going to the basket which this team needs desperately.

I just think this whole "Rondo just pounds the ball" is an easy way to scapegoat Rondo and doesn't look at the big picture of what is really happening on the court.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever complained about playing with Nash, Kidd, or Paul? The former two widely regarded pass first PGs, the last one also in that category, but who was tasked to take a bigger role scoring wise and stayed there.

I just find it quite curious, that someone like Terry and Lee seem uncomfortable playing with Rondo, a pass first PG, someone who both have mentioned as one of their primordial reasons for wanting to come to Boston and seemingly finding it disappointing.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Celtics18 on January 29, 2013, 09:50:41 PM

Also, I'm really tired of these sports "reporters" and their rumors coming from reliable, unnamed sources.  I, basically, don't believe anything anymore unless somebody is directly quoted.

What sports 'insider' quotes their source directly? If you don't like it -- then don't listen / read. You'll know less about the realities of your team off the court, but at least you won't be violating your own personal if unusual and otherwise nonsensical standards for insider reporting practices.

I don't read them.  But, I have the right to point out to my fellow CelticsBloggers that just because somebody wrote it or said it, doesn't necessarily make it true.

That's all. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Evantime34 on January 29, 2013, 09:51:49 PM
Well with Rondo out we are going to see. If Lee and other underachievers play well with Rondo out we will know that he was right and the offense needs to be restructured. If not then he was wrong and has nothing to complain about. Essentially Lee will need to put up or shut up.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 09:52:49 PM
For the record, if anything I think Lee is more displeased with a system that allows Rondo to pound the ball as much as he does rather than playing with Rondo himself.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: nickagneta on January 29, 2013, 09:58:33 PM
Players have complained about playing with MJ, Kobe, Shaq, Deron Williams, Isiah Thomas, etc. Just because some players complain about a player doesn't mean that they have just cause to do so.

Williams is a great offensive facilitator. Lots of players have complained about him. His coach retired because of him. Doesn't make him less of a great PG.

BTW, go back to when Paul was in New Orleans and go read about the complaints of him dribbling the ball too much and taking a last minute shot too much on ESPN and Hornets blogs.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 09:58:56 PM
Knew it. His best games were always when Rondo was out, remember?

Interestingly, two of his best four games by "game score" were indeed when Rondo was out. 


  Hardly surprising, one would expect Green to put up better numbers if PP was out of the lineup.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: WeMadeIt17 on January 29, 2013, 10:01:35 PM
Idk how much i believe he was unhappy but i do beleive that he will have better stats with Rondo not in the picture anymore. Along with Jason Terry and Jeff Green. The ball is going to be in their hand a bit more to have to make plays and I think the three of them are capeable.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: kgainez on January 29, 2013, 10:02:21 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

the second unit?
jet/lee/jeff/sully with kg? uhh...that's our best unit, man.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: bucknersrevenge on January 29, 2013, 10:04:39 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

The 2nd unit has been outplaying the starters for quite a bit now.


I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

ORRRRRRRRR, we can try and coax Rondo to stop pounding the ball for 20 seconds of the offense, and move the ball like basketball was intended to be played, and get the most of out this team.

How a team with Terry isn't running pick-and-roll plays with KG constantly is beyond me.
The whole Rondo pounds the ball too much and its his fault is complete hogwash IMO. People have been saying it for 2-3 years now because 2-3 times a game it happens.

But why does it happen? Could the other team's defense have anything to do with it? Could players not moving off the ball have anything to do with it? Could players not running the play right have anything to do with it? Could players not be open have anything to do with it? Or could Rondo seeing certain players looking for a shot that they can't hit or knows they will break the play to play hero ball have anything to do with it?

Of course they do? But people see a few plays a game where rondo is dribbling and its all on Rondo? Right!!

Not saying he doesn't over dribble on occasion or miss the wide open man but he doesn't just pound the ball and ruin the C's offense as much as people say.

Rondo's a [dang] smart basketball player. He knows this team can't succeed with just lazily shooting mid range jumpers, which is what just about the whole roster wants to do. If he holds it, maybe its because he is waiting for a player to get in the post or looking for a cutter going to the basket which this team needs desperately.

I just think this whole "Rondo just pounds the ball" is an easy way to scapegoat Rondo and doesn't look at the big picture of what is really happening on the court.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever complained about playing with Nash, Kidd, or Paul? The former two widely regarded pass first PGs, the last one also in that category, but who was tasked to take a bigger role scoring wise and stayed there.

I just find it quite curious, that someone like Terry and Lee seem uncomfortable playing with Rondo, a pass first PG, someone who both have mentioned as one of their primordial reasons for wanting to come to Boston and seemingly finding it disappointing.

Without a doubt, the bench group(with Sullinger) has been the better group for several games now. They don't do it all the time but they play with more pace than the starters do and they've been more effective. KG and especially Paul have looked old out there. Paul looks increasingly slow at both ends to be honest lately. I for one don't know how true these complaints even are. The grapevine changes everything. But it will be interesting to see how Terry and Lee play for the rest of the season.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Who on January 29, 2013, 10:04:48 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.
Lee has not gone out and said this to the media.  Have you (or anyone) heard him say it?  Lowe says he got this out of "back channels".  Lee is entitled to his feelings and opinions and he's allowed to share those opinions with who he is close to.  If that leaks, it leaks, but he's not going out and selfishly complaining about it publicly.  And when we have as much offensive talent as we do and our offense is as inefficient as it is, well there are 2 natural places to blame - the guy designing the offense (Doc) or the guy running the offense (Rondo).

If the 2008 celtics were under .500 at this point in the season, I have a feeling there would have been grumbling.  I think if everything was ticking, Courtney wouldn't be a unhappy at all.  I believe there is reason for EVERYONE on this team to be unhappy with how the offense is performing and because it is performing far lower than what is expected of them.  Where you place your blame... like I said I think it comes down to 2 possible places.

Danny Ainge ??
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: nickagneta on January 29, 2013, 10:06:50 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.
Lee has not gone out and said this to the media.  Have you (or anyone) heard him say it?  Lowe says he got this out of "back channels".  Lee is entitled to his feelings and opinions and he's allowed to share those opinions with who he is close to.  If that leaks, it leaks, but he's not going out and selfishly complaining about it publicly.  And when we have as much offensive talent as we do and our offense is as inefficient as it is, well there are 2 natural places to blame - the guy designing the offense (Doc) or the guy running the offense (Rondo).

If the 2008 celtics were under .500 at this point in the season, I have a feeling there would have been grumbling.  I think if everything was ticking, Courtney wouldn't be a unhappy at all.  I believe there is reason for EVERYONE on this team to be unhappy with how the offense is performing and because it is performing far lower than what is expected of them.  Where you place your blame... like I said I think it comes down to 2 possible places.

Danny Ainge ??
Thank you Who.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: bucknersrevenge on January 29, 2013, 10:07:59 PM
For the record, if anything I think Lee is more displeased with a system that allows Rondo to pound the ball as much as he does rather than playing with Rondo himself.

Good point. And one that needs to be said and maybe re-stated again in this thread for recognition.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Roy H. on January 29, 2013, 10:18:41 PM
So, as mentioned on the front page, over the last year we've seen the following players have issues with their role:

Ray
Lee
Bass
Barbosa
Darko

Who or what do we blame for that?  Doc?  Rondo?  Losing?  Egos?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ssspence on January 29, 2013, 10:19:54 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

What would you have done differently, and how would you argue it'd have increased the C's chances of competing for a championship in 2013?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: rondohondo on January 29, 2013, 10:22:25 PM
So, as mentioned on the front page, over the last year we've seen the following players have issues with their role:

Ray
Lee
Bass
Barbosa
Darko

Who or what do we blame for that?  Doc?  Rondo?  Losing?  Egos?

Ray = Cry baby,getting the same shots in Miami

Lee= Journeyman

Bass = The next Mark Blount, how come he was able to get more shots last year?because he didn't have a 20 yr old rookie to blow by him in development

Darko = Darko? really ? ???
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticsFan9 on January 29, 2013, 10:22:42 PM
So, as mentioned on the front page, over the last year we've seen the following players have issues with their role:

Ray
Lee
Bass
Barbosa
Darko

Who or what do we blame for that?  Doc?  Rondo?  Losing?  Egos?

I'd bet if we were winning not only would nobody be complaining, but everybody would be praising Danny for the job he did this summer.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: nickagneta on January 29, 2013, 10:28:23 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

What would you have done differently, and how would you argue it'd have increased the C's chances of competing for a championship in 2013?
Not sure. I would have to think about it. Also, I have the advantage of hindsight to make myself look smart so I am not sure that's fair.

I complained about Danny's past off seasons but had already made comments about how differently I would have done things before the season started. I didn't do that this year.

I will say I had my doubts about Lee before the season. I questioned why so many teams had given up on him in the past. I thought Terry was a good pick up. I hated the Green signing and the Collins signing and was ambivalent on the Wilcox signing.

I did say a few times that I thought Javale McGee might be a guy I would have explored but I don't think Denver was letting that happen.

I also liked the Sully pick and didn't like the Melo pick.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: KGs Knee on January 29, 2013, 10:28:34 PM
Yea!  Alright, awesome, another "bash Rondo" thread.   ::)

There are some seriously sick in the head people around here lately.  I am so thoroughly disgusted, I can't even express it in words allowed on this blog.

Let me get this straight, a journeyman role player is complaining about not getting his touches and is unhappy?  Courtney Lee should keep his [dang] mouth shut (even amongst his inner circle, if it leaked, it's CORTNEY'S fault!) and play his role.  If he still doesn't like it, he can quit.

As much as this may be a dig at Rondo, it's just as much a dig at the coaching staff.  Doc is the one who determines how the offense is run.  Not role players.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ssspence on January 29, 2013, 10:29:39 PM
So, as mentioned on the front page, over the last year we've seen the following players have issues with their role:

Ray
Lee
Bass
Barbosa
Darko

Who or what do we blame for that?  Doc?  Rondo?  Losing?  Egos?

Ray -- Ray's ego.

Lee -- no one. He's at the most competitive position on the team. And he's coming around.

Bass -- his brain. He's not very bright. He's got 18mil guaranteed from the Cs, has regressed in every facet, and isnt bright enough to come up with a better excuse than 'role'.

Barbosa / Darko -- if you don't want to be 12th man, don't sign a vet min deal after every other FA has already been gobbled up to be one. Play overseas, or retire.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: cltc5 on January 29, 2013, 10:38:16 PM
lee will have his chance now
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 10:41:26 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

ORRRRRRRRR, we can try and coax Rondo to stop pounding the ball for 20 seconds of the offense, and move the ball like basketball was intended to be played, and get the most of out this team.

How a team with Terry isn't running pick-and-roll plays with KG constantly is beyond me.

  It's worth pointing out that, if you check shot clock usage on 82games, the percentage of our shots that we take in the first 15 seconds of the shot clock is pretty much league average and the percentage of shots we take in the last 4 seconds of the shot clock looks like it's lower than most teams. Either Rondo doesn't pound the ball for 20 seconds very often or he's mastered time travel.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Banner18now! on January 29, 2013, 10:41:43 PM
Ok Courtney Lee, your excuse for underacheiving so far was Rondo pounding the ball. Now I guess its put up or shut up time because your excuse is out the window now!
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: celticslove on January 29, 2013, 10:46:13 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

ORRRRRRRRR, we can try and coax Rondo to stop pounding the ball for 20 seconds of the offense, and move the ball like basketball was intended to be played, and get the most of out this team.

How a team with Terry isn't running pick-and-roll plays with KG constantly is beyond me.

  It's worth pointing out that, if you check shot clock usage on 82games, the percentage of our shots that we take in the first 15 seconds of the shot clock is pretty much league average and the percentage of shots we take in the last 4 seconds of the shot clock looks like it's lower than most teams. Either Rondo doesn't pound the ball for 20 seconds very often or he's mastered time travel.
or maybe Rondo just misses Ray's perfected craft of squeezing the whole 24 for one shot.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 10:46:14 PM
Ok Courtney Lee, your excuse for underacheiving so far was Rondo pounding the ball. Now I guess its put up or shut up time because your excuse is out the window now!

Good defense, career high FG%... hardly underachieving.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Lucky17 on January 29, 2013, 10:48:01 PM
So, so disappointed in you, Celticsblog.

7 pages into a thread responding to "unnamed sources" and the following hasn't happened:

1. No one has posted the hilarious Chris Broussard jpeg that gets trotted out whenever "unnamed sources" comes up

2. More importantly, no one has considered that the "unnamed sources" are Celtics officials trying to stir the pot and drive up trade buzz around Lee by "leaking" information about friction between Lee and Rondo

Shame, shame, shame.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Roy H. on January 29, 2013, 10:49:18 PM

2. More importantly, no one has considered that the "unnamed sources" are Celtics officials trying to stir the pot and drive up trade buzz around Lee by "leaking" information about friction between Lee and Rondo

How would planting the seed that Lee is a malcontent and wants out of Boston increase his trade value?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: celticslove on January 29, 2013, 10:55:22 PM
Ok Courtney Lee, your excuse for underacheiving so far was Rondo pounding the ball. Now I guess its put up or shut up time because your excuse is out the window now!

Good defense, career high FG%... hardly underachieving.
this. lee played hard since day 1 in green.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: apc on January 29, 2013, 10:58:53 PM
Man, i hate rumors.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: KCattheStripe on January 29, 2013, 11:00:39 PM
The extent to which I don't care about Courtney Lee's opinion on the matter is legendary.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: KGs Knee on January 29, 2013, 11:08:14 PM
The extent to which I don't care about Courtney Lee's opinion on the matter is legendary.

Bravo...TP!

Courtney Lee can pound sand if he doesn't like it.  I really hope this is just a "false rumor" because he was actually starting to grow on me.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticsFan9 on January 29, 2013, 11:13:09 PM
1.  This rumor's probably bogus.

2.  If it's true, Lee is probably frustrated that the team is losing.

3.  How about you start hitting more threes, Courtney?  Maybe Rondo would've passed it to you more if you would stop bricking from the corner, your supposed hot spot.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Lucky17 on January 29, 2013, 11:17:25 PM

2. More importantly, no one has considered that the "unnamed sources" are Celtics officials trying to stir the pot and drive up trade buzz around Lee by "leaking" information about friction between Lee and Rondo

How would planting the seed that Lee is a malcontent and wants out of Boston increase his trade value?

Elementary, Roy. Because it gives a concrete reason for Lee's underperformance. Trade him to a non-Rondo-led team, Lee will magically play better.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 29, 2013, 11:24:15 PM
1.  This rumor's probably bogus.

2.  If it's true, Lee is probably frustrated that the team is losing.

3.  How about you start hitting more threes, Courtney?  Maybe Rondo would've passed it to you more if you would stop bricking from the corner, your supposed hot spot.

Of course, all three are referencing Lee. Never thought of blaming Rondo, huh?
Lee has been playing just like we wanted him to when we traded for him. His threes have been going IN, maybe Rajon is at fault this time. Who knows? But it certainly isn't all Lee's fault. He's been outstanding,
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: triboy16f on January 29, 2013, 11:26:54 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

dude you are seriously rondo'd. I don't know how you can flip the initial issue back to Lee. If the rumor is true, and i believe it is, he just being honest. He has played in the league enough years to know what he doesn't appreciate on the court. Why does he get zero touches for 4 minutes and have to bust his azz off on defense?? The guy is not a defensive specialist naturally

If rondo by himself Jordan us to the top of the standings, then nobody can say anything bad. I'd trade lee in 2 seconds if this were the case. BUT its not the case and we have been losing all year 50 percent of the time. The celts team is packed with talent , enough so that we should be a top three team in the conference.

I guess once we go on a honest and simple winning streak continuing with beat sac tomorrow, you might slightly sober up from Rondo mania.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 29, 2013, 11:28:38 PM
Nick, you need to realize that even though Rondo may be the best PG in the league, he does not suit everyone perfectly and does possess flaws.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Onslaught on January 29, 2013, 11:31:15 PM
Nick, you need to realize that even though Rondo may be the best PG in the league, he does not suit everyone perfectly and does possess flaws.
True. But we should put people around him that fits. And if some scrub like Lee is not happy then he can suck it up or take a walk.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ejk3489 on January 29, 2013, 11:33:57 PM
I don't get why Zach Lowe would suddenly bring this up now...this "issue" has become irrelevant. Just seems like more unnecessary drama for the Celtics/Rondo.

Of course, all three are referencing Lee. Never thought of blaming Rondo, huh?
Lee has been playing just like we wanted him to when we traded for him. His threes have been going IN, maybe Rajon is at fault this time. Who knows? But it certainly isn't all Lee's fault. He's been outstanding,

Lee is shooting .329% on threes this season. That's...not good.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 11:34:01 PM
Nick, you need to realize that even though Rondo may be the best PG in the league, he does not suit everyone perfectly and does possess flaws.
True. But we should put people around him that fits. And if some scrub like Lee is not happy then he can suck it up or take a walk.

If someone like Lee doesn't fit, I think Rondo is screwed.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on January 29, 2013, 11:35:56 PM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

Excellent post.

The fact that Paul and KG has no complains makes Lee's more ridiculous. If he can get himself open a lot he probably got more touches. Even then, his role is not to shoot a ton of shots, no reason to complain about touches, at all.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Onslaught on January 29, 2013, 11:39:54 PM
Nick, you need to realize that even though Rondo may be the best PG in the league, he does not suit everyone perfectly and does possess flaws.
True. But we should put people around him that fits. And if some scrub like Lee is not happy then he can suck it up or take a walk.

If someone like Lee doesn't fit, I think Rondo is screwed.

I can make a long list of people who fit with him just fine. KG and Paul are just two of them. Even Ray played well with him even if they didn't like each other.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 11:42:38 PM
Nick, you need to realize that even though Rondo may be the best PG in the league, he does not suit everyone perfectly and does possess flaws.
True. But we should put people around him that fits. And if some scrub like Lee is not happy then he can suck it up or take a walk.

If someone like Lee doesn't fit, I think Rondo is screwed.

I can make a long list of people who fit with him just fine. KG and Paul are just two of them. Even Ray played well with him even if they didn't like each other.

Lee is playing well...
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Onslaught on January 29, 2013, 11:44:02 PM
Nick, you need to realize that even though Rondo may be the best PG in the league, he does not suit everyone perfectly and does possess flaws.
True. But we should put people around him that fits. And if some scrub like Lee is not happy then he can suck it up or take a walk.

If someone like Lee doesn't fit, I think Rondo is screwed.

I can make a long list of people who fit with him just fine. KG and Paul are just two of them. Even Ray played well with him even if they didn't like each other.

Lee is playing well...
Once in a blue moon. He's a disappointment so far for me. Not as bad as the Jet but still.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 11:50:07 PM
Nick, you need to realize that even though Rondo may be the best PG in the league, he does not suit everyone perfectly and does possess flaws.
True. But we should put people around him that fits. And if some scrub like Lee is not happy then he can suck it up or take a walk.

If someone like Lee doesn't fit, I think Rondo is screwed.

I can make a long list of people who fit with him just fine. KG and Paul are just two of them. Even Ray played well with him even if they didn't like each other.

Lee is playing well...
Once in a blue moon. He's a disappointment so far for me. Not as bad as the Jet but still.

No clue what season you've been seeing. Since December he's pretty much been one of our most consistent players, if not the most.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on January 29, 2013, 11:59:17 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I to agree that rondo and pierce are part of the problem but they are at the very top of the list!

Rondos inconsistent play and pierce bricking everything and mediocre defense is a HUGE problem with this team. Those are like two of your best players not bringing it every night!!
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: KGs Knee on January 30, 2013, 12:01:25 AM
Nick, you need to realize that even though Rondo may be the best PG in the league, he does not suit everyone perfectly and does possess flaws.
True. But we should put people around him that fits. And if some scrub like Lee is not happy then he can suck it up or take a walk.

If someone like Lee doesn't fit, I think RondoLee is screwed.

There, fixed it for you.  Your welcome.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Celtics18 on January 30, 2013, 12:01:48 AM
Nick, you need to realize that even though Rondo may be the best PG in the league, he does not suit everyone perfectly and does possess flaws.
True. But we should put people around him that fits. And if some scrub like Lee is not happy then he can suck it up or take a walk.

If someone like Lee doesn't fit, I think Rondo is screwed.

I can make a long list of people who fit with him just fine. KG and Paul are just two of them. Even Ray played well with him even if they didn't like each other.

Lee is playing well...
Once in a blue moon. He's a disappointment so far for me. Not as bad as the Jet but still.

No clue what season you've been seeing. Since December he's pretty much been one of our most consistent players, if not the most.

I agree.  I've been very happy with Lee's play of late.  That's one of the reasons that I'm very skeptical of this report by Zach Lowe. 

Lee seems to have found his role and seems to be flourishing in it.  I don't understand why he'd be complaining? 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 30, 2013, 12:03:54 AM
Lee has been very good since December.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 30, 2013, 12:05:57 AM
Nick, you need to realize that even though Rondo may be the best PG in the league, he does not suit everyone perfectly and does possess flaws.
True. But we should put people around him that fits. And if some scrub like Lee is not happy then he can suck it up or take a walk.

If someone like Lee doesn't fit, I think RondoLee is screwed.

There, fixed it for you.  Your welcome.

How? Lee is the type of player that fits.with Rondo. If they can't make it work, I reckon it'll be a real.challenge to find someone who does at an effective capacity.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on January 30, 2013, 12:11:07 AM
I have never been a fan of rondo dominating the ball. We have guys on this team that flourish when the ball is in their hands. Sure it looks good when rondo gets somebody an open jumpshot and that's fine.

There has also been plenty of times where the offense just stalls and rondo stands at the top of the key wasting most of the shot clock before somebody has to put up a fast shot because its like 3 seconds left on the shot clock.

I've seen both. I've seen rondo dominating the ball and I've seen everybody sharing the ball. I strongly prefer when everybody shares the ball i think we look better as a team when that happens. We can win games both ways but i prefer this way.

All this is on doc tho. Rondo is only doing what doc wants him to do so he doesn't deserve any blame here. I'm just glad because now we get to see for sure if we're better or worse without the rondo domination of the ball.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: vinnie on January 30, 2013, 12:13:00 AM
I am not even going to read this thread, but I have heard numerous people in the last few days who know what is going on -- Jackie M. for one -- and all of them say that there is strong affection for Rondo in the locker room, especially from the real leader of the team, KG. It's funny to me that so many here debunk any rumors they read from anyone associated with ESPN or the Globe, etc. (because of course those people are all morons), but yet they come here and talk about how they are sure teammates secretly dislike Rondo, and so on. With absolutely ZERO evidence.  :-[
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: KGs Knee on January 30, 2013, 12:13:29 AM
Nick, you need to realize that even though Rondo may be the best PG in the league, he does not suit everyone perfectly and does possess flaws.
True. But we should put people around him that fits. And if some scrub like Lee is not happy then he can suck it up or take a walk.

If someone like Lee doesn't fit, I think RondoLee is screwed.

There, fixed it for you.  Your welcome.

How? Lee is the type of player that fits.with Rondo. If they can't make it work, I reckon it'll be a real.challenge to find someone who does at an effective capacity.

1st, I'm highly skeptical about his supposed "unhappiness".

However, if he is, it's his fault/problem.  Lee is a role player, always has been, and will be.  The job of a role player is to do whatever the team needs him to do to compliment the stars.  Did he really think he was going to come here and get however many shots he pleased?

I can promise you, Danny will not be letting guys like Lee dictate what happens with the teams best player.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 12:13:45 AM
Nick, you need to realize that even though Rondo may be the best PG in the league, he does not suit everyone perfectly and does possess flaws.
True. But we should put people around him that fits. And if some scrub like Lee is not happy then he can suck it up or take a walk.

If someone like Lee doesn't fit, I think Rondo is screwed.

  I don't think that Lee being unhappy with his role doesn't mean he doesn't fit. The same way that Ray may have been unhappy with his role as a shooter and not a playmaker but still fit in well with the team as a shooter. In the same vein I think that there are a fair amount of players in the league that play the way they want to, not the way that helps their team the most. Call it the "Antoine syndrome".
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: KGs Knee on January 30, 2013, 12:17:03 AM
I am not even going to read this thread, but I have heard numerous people in the last few days who know what is going on -- Jackie M. for one -- and all of them say that there is strong affection for Rondo in the locker room, especially from the real leader of the team, KG. It's funny to me that so many here debunk any rumors they read from anyone associated with ESPN or the Globe, etc. (because of course those people are all morons), but yet they come here and talk about how they are sure teammates secretly dislike Rondo, and so on. With absolutely ZERO evidence.  :-[

Apparently Felger has brainwashed/poisend the minds of many a Celtic fan.

Every last bit of garbage I have read here lately has been a word for word regurgitation of the crap he spews.

I blame Michael Felger for all of this.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: blink on January 30, 2013, 12:18:28 AM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

dude you are seriously rondo'd. I don't know how you can flip the initial issue back to Lee. If the rumor is true, and i believe it is, he just being honest. He has played in the league enough years to know what he doesn't appreciate on the court. Why does he get zero touches for 4 minutes and have to bust his azz off on defense?? The guy is not a defensive specialist naturally

If rondo by himself Jordan us to the top of the standings, then nobody can say anything bad. I'd trade lee in 2 seconds if this were the case. BUT its not the case and we have been losing all year 50 percent of the time. The celts team is packed with talent , enough so that we should be a top three team in the conference.

I guess once we go on a honest and simple winning streak continuing with beat sac tomorrow, you might slightly sober up from Rondo mania.

The bolded part just made me spit up my drink.  No way are we top 3 in talent in the east.  Our two best players we have left are both over 35 years old.  We have one great big, KG, and one with a lot of potential Sully.  We have one formerly great player, who is still great sometimes PP. 

Almost the whole rest of the roster is filled out with good role players.  We have a decent roster, but especially with Rondo out now, we probably have more like 5th-8th seed talent.  Miami, Chicago, NYK, Brook, Indiana, Atlanta all have better talent that us in my opinion.  Not that it matters, we tend to get by on effort and guts and a lot of intangibles.  But to say we have top 3 talent?  Maybe in 2010 we did before Shaq got injured, but not now.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: blink on January 30, 2013, 12:22:26 AM
I don't get why Zach Lowe would suddenly bring this up now...this "issue" has become irrelevant. Just seems like more unnecessary drama for the Celtics/Rondo.

Of course, all three are referencing Lee. Never thought of blaming Rondo, huh?
Lee has been playing just like we wanted him to when we traded for him. His threes have been going IN, maybe Rajon is at fault this time. Who knows? But it certainly isn't all Lee's fault. He's been outstanding,

Lee is shooting .329% on threes this season. That's...not good.

Exactly.  So would all of you rather have Lee than Rondo?  Is that what a lot of you are saying?  Lee is a role player, Rondo is a superstar. 

I like Lee, I like his hustle, he has been working hard on D and was a good role player pick up.  If he is upset, he should probably talk to Doc directly.  Who knows what really happened anyways.  It hasn't impacted his effort.  I think this is a non-story other than the over reaction on this board.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on January 30, 2013, 12:36:03 AM
I don't get why Zach Lowe would suddenly bring this up now...this "issue" has become irrelevant. Just seems like more unnecessary drama for the Celtics/Rondo.

Of course, all three are referencing Lee. Never thought of blaming Rondo, huh?
Lee has been playing just like we wanted him to when we traded for him. His threes have been going IN, maybe Rajon is at fault this time. Who knows? But it certainly isn't all Lee's fault. He's been outstanding,

Lee is shooting .329% on threes this season. That's...not good.

Exactly.  So would all of you rather have Lee than Rondo?  Is that what a lot of you are saying?  Lee is a role player, Rondo is a superstar. 

I like Lee, I like his hustle, he has been working hard on D and was a good role player pick up.  If he is upset, he should probably talk to Doc directly.  Who knows what really happened anyways.  It hasn't impacted his effort.  I think this is a non-story other than the over reaction on this board.

Hes an allstar not a superstar.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: triboy16f on January 30, 2013, 12:38:09 AM
We are deep. This age thing is crappy excuse. There's ways around it, like play less min. Tell me how is san Antonio still so good? We compare well to them in terms of lineup makeup. Actually we r deeper imo.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: kgainez on January 30, 2013, 12:42:41 AM
*sigh*

has anyone also stopped to think that MAYBE Zach Lowe did a bad paraphrasing?

You know how in elementary school we used to play telephone, and by the time it got to the end the message could've been completely different?

I really think this is, again, a non-story. You all are making it that Lee hates Rondo and his style of play. Maybe Lee is saying he wants to run more. Maybe he wants to do more. Who knows?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: blink on January 30, 2013, 12:43:32 AM
I don't get why Zach Lowe would suddenly bring this up now...this "issue" has become irrelevant. Just seems like more unnecessary drama for the Celtics/Rondo.

Of course, all three are referencing Lee. Never thought of blaming Rondo, huh?
Lee has been playing just like we wanted him to when we traded for him. His threes have been going IN, maybe Rajon is at fault this time. Who knows? But it certainly isn't all Lee's fault. He's been outstanding,

Lee is shooting .329% on threes this season. That's...not good.

Exactly.  So would all of you rather have Lee than Rondo?  Is that what a lot of you are saying?  Lee is a role player, Rondo is a superstar. 

I like Lee, I like his hustle, he has been working hard on D and was a good role player pick up.  If he is upset, he should probably talk to Doc directly.  Who knows what really happened anyways.  It hasn't impacted his effort.  I think this is a non-story other than the over reaction on this board.

Hes an allstar not a superstar.

Depends on who you ask.  Eh, ok either way.  Doesn't really change my point. 

Who would you say are superstars?  LJ, KD, Kobe, Melo, CP3, DH, Dwade?  He has to be at least in the conversation.

Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on January 30, 2013, 12:45:53 AM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

dude you are seriously rondo'd. I don't know how you can flip the initial issue back to Lee. If the rumor is true, and i believe it is, he just being honest. He has played in the league enough years to know what he doesn't appreciate on the court. Why does he get zero touches for 4 minutes and have to bust his azz off on defense?? The guy is not a defensive specialist naturally

If rondo by himself Jordan us to the top of the standings, then nobody can say anything bad. I'd trade lee in 2 seconds if this were the case. BUT its not the case and we have been losing all year 50 percent of the time. The celts team is packed with talent , enough so that we should be a top three team in the conference.

I guess once we go on a honest and simple winning streak continuing with beat sac tomorrow, you might slightly sober up from Rondo mania.

The bolded part just made me spit up my drink.  No way are we top 3 in talent in the east.  Our two best players we have left are both over 35 years old.  We have one great big, KG, and one with a lot of potential Sully.  We have one formerly great player, who is still great sometimes PP. 

Almost the whole rest of the roster is filled out with good role players.  We have a decent roster, but especially with Rondo out now, we probably have more like 5th-8th seed talent.  Miami, Chicago, NYK, Brook, Indiana, Atlanta all have better talent that us in my opinion.  Not that it matters, we tend to get by on effort and guts and a lot of intangibles.  But to say we have top 3 talent?  Maybe in 2010 we did before Shaq got injured, but not now.

I don't get it... you say we have the talent w/o RR to be a 5th seed but that we aren't top 3 with him? What did we have the talent for, 4th seed, with RR? So with RR we are slightly better? If you think a team without RR could be a 5th seed, I don't see why it's so absurd to say we have the talent for a 3rd seed WITH RR.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: nickagneta on January 30, 2013, 12:46:41 AM
Lee has been on 4 teams in 5 years. Not one of those teams lamented the fact they lost him.

Why?

Lee now comes out and if letting people know he doesn't like the way Rondo runs the team.

Is it any coincidence that there were rumors that Danny Ainge was putting a full court press on acquiring JJ. Reddick

What about the earlier articles of players not acting right after losses or taking losing seriously?

Come on people. Wake up. Read between the lines. Lee is a malcontent or locker room headcase. He didn't fit in in other locker rooms and probably doesn't fit well here. Danny is looking to replace him and has targeted Reddick. And why is that? Probably because he feels his game is bigger than it is or because he wants more shots to prove to everyone that it is.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: kgainez on January 30, 2013, 12:50:06 AM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

dude you are seriously rondo'd. I don't know how you can flip the initial issue back to Lee. If the rumor is true, and i believe it is, he just being honest. He has played in the league enough years to know what he doesn't appreciate on the court. Why does he get zero touches for 4 minutes and have to bust his azz off on defense?? The guy is not a defensive specialist naturally

If rondo by himself Jordan us to the top of the standings, then nobody can say anything bad. I'd trade lee in 2 seconds if this were the case. BUT its not the case and we have been losing all year 50 percent of the time. The celts team is packed with talent , enough so that we should be a top three team in the conference.

I guess once we go on a honest and simple winning streak continuing with beat sac tomorrow, you might slightly sober up from Rondo mania.

The bolded part just made me spit up my drink.  No way are we top 3 in talent in the east.  Our two best players we have left are both over 35 years old.  We have one great big, KG, and one with a lot of potential Sully.  We have one formerly great player, who is still great sometimes PP. 

Almost the whole rest of the roster is filled out with good role players.  We have a decent roster, but especially with Rondo out now, we probably have more like 5th-8th seed talent.  Miami, Chicago, NYK, Brook, Indiana, Atlanta all have better talent that us in my opinion.  Not that it matters, we tend to get by on effort and guts and a lot of intangibles.  But to say we have top 3 talent?  Maybe in 2010 we did before Shaq got injured, but not now.

I don't get it... you say we have the talent w/o RR to be a 5th seed but that we aren't top 3 with him? What did we have the talent for, 4th seed, with RR? So with RR we are slightly better? If you think a team without RR could be a 5th seed, I don't see why it's so absurd to say we have the talent for a 3rd seed WITH RR.

well, i think everyone is crazy to believe that we aren't underachieving.

I called us to be between 2-4 seed with Rondo...
I think we can be 3-6 without.

This is a team game. If we play to the team's strength, we could much much better. We have lots of weapons, but everyone seems to just scratch that off the list.

ALL RONDO EVERYTHING!
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on January 30, 2013, 12:51:09 AM
I don't get why Zach Lowe would suddenly bring this up now...this "issue" has become irrelevant. Just seems like more unnecessary drama for the Celtics/Rondo.

Of course, all three are referencing Lee. Never thought of blaming Rondo, huh?
Lee has been playing just like we wanted him to when we traded for him. His threes have been going IN, maybe Rajon is at fault this time. Who knows? But it certainly isn't all Lee's fault. He's been outstanding,

Lee is shooting .329% on threes this season. That's...not good.

Exactly.  So would all of you rather have Lee than Rondo?  Is that what a lot of you are saying?  Lee is a role player, Rondo is a superstar. 

I like Lee, I like his hustle, he has been working hard on D and was a good role player pick up.  If he is upset, he should probably talk to Doc directly.  Who knows what really happened anyways.  It hasn't impacted his effort.  I think this is a non-story other than the over reaction on this board.

Hes an allstar not a superstar.

Depends on who you ask.  Eh, ok either way.  Doesn't really change my point. 

Who would you say are superstars?  LJ, KD, Kobe, Melo, CP3, DH, Dwade?  He has to be at least in the conversation.

Yes the guys you named are superstars. I mean i guess its fair to put him in the conversation but that's it. He is not in the same league as the guys you named. I think he has ability to be a superstar tho if he actually put in the effort to become one on a consistent basis.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: kgainez on January 30, 2013, 12:52:11 AM
Lee has been on 4 teams in 5 years. Not one of those teams lamented the fact they lost him.

Why?

Lee now comes out and if letting people know he doesn't like the way Rondo runs the team.

Is it any coincidence that there were rumors that Danny Ainge was putting a full court press on acquiring JJ. Reddick

What about the earlier articles of players not acting right after losses or taking losing seriously?

Come on people. Wake up. Read between the lines. Lee is a malcontent or locker room headcase. He didn't fit in in other locker rooms and probably doesn't fit well here. Danny is looking to replace him and has targeted Reddick. And why is that? Probably because he feels his game is bigger than it is or because he wants more shots to prove to everyone that it is.

he hasn't come out and said anything. that's first and foremost.

you may have a point, but it's nothing more than a theory. I find it hard to believe Lee, one of the only guys that tweets in distaste of the losses, is a malcontent in the locker room. but i guess it's possible.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: blink on January 30, 2013, 12:53:52 AM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

dude you are seriously rondo'd. I don't know how you can flip the initial issue back to Lee. If the rumor is true, and i believe it is, he just being honest. He has played in the league enough years to know what he doesn't appreciate on the court. Why does he get zero touches for 4 minutes and have to bust his azz off on defense?? The guy is not a defensive specialist naturally

If rondo by himself Jordan us to the top of the standings, then nobody can say anything bad. I'd trade lee in 2 seconds if this were the case. BUT its not the case and we have been losing all year 50 percent of the time. The celts team is packed with talent , enough so that we should be a top three team in the conference.

I guess once we go on a honest and simple winning streak continuing with beat sac tomorrow, you might slightly sober up from Rondo mania.

The bolded part just made me spit up my drink.  No way are we top 3 in talent in the east.  Our two best players we have left are both over 35 years old.  We have one great big, KG, and one with a lot of potential Sully.  We have one formerly great player, who is still great sometimes PP. 

Almost the whole rest of the roster is filled out with good role players.  We have a decent roster, but especially with Rondo out now, we probably have more like 5th-8th seed talent.  Miami, Chicago, NYK, Brook, Indiana, Atlanta all have better talent that us in my opinion.  Not that it matters, we tend to get by on effort and guts and a lot of intangibles.  But to say we have top 3 talent?  Maybe in 2010 we did before Shaq got injured, but not now.

I don't get it... you say we have the talent w/o RR to be a 5th seed but that we aren't top 3 with him? What did we have the talent for, 4th seed, with RR? So with RR we are slightly better? If you think a team without RR could be a 5th seed, I don't see why it's so absurd to say we have the talent for a 3rd seed WITH RR.

I didn't say anything about our talent level WITH Rondo.  Re-read my post.  You even highlighted in your post.  My comment was with Rondo OUT we are probably 5-8th seed talent. 

With Rondo, I honestly don't know where we stand talent wise, obviously higher.  But unfortunately our record certainly doesn't seem to indicate it.  1/2 way into the season, with no major injuries (pre Rondo injury) you pretty much are what your record says.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: blink on January 30, 2013, 12:55:49 AM
I don't get why Zach Lowe would suddenly bring this up now...this "issue" has become irrelevant. Just seems like more unnecessary drama for the Celtics/Rondo.

Of course, all three are referencing Lee. Never thought of blaming Rondo, huh?
Lee has been playing just like we wanted him to when we traded for him. His threes have been going IN, maybe Rajon is at fault this time. Who knows? But it certainly isn't all Lee's fault. He's been outstanding,

Lee is shooting .329% on threes this season. That's...not good.

Exactly.  So would all of you rather have Lee than Rondo?  Is that what a lot of you are saying?  Lee is a role player, Rondo is a superstar. 

I like Lee, I like his hustle, he has been working hard on D and was a good role player pick up.  If he is upset, he should probably talk to Doc directly.  Who knows what really happened anyways.  It hasn't impacted his effort.  I think this is a non-story other than the over reaction on this board.

Hes an allstar not a superstar.

Depends on who you ask.  Eh, ok either way.  Doesn't really change my point. 

Who would you say are superstars?  LJ, KD, Kobe, Melo, CP3, DH, Dwade?  He has to be at least in the conversation.

Yes the guys you named are superstars. I mean i guess its fair to put him in the conversation but that's it. He is not in the same league as the guys you named. I think he has ability to be a superstar tho if he actually put in the effort to become one on a consistent basis.

I guess I pretty much agree. Maybe if Rondo could develop a decent 3-point shot, he could get into that club.  Man that would really help our spacing.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: KGs Knee on January 30, 2013, 12:56:17 AM
Lee has been on 4 teams in 5 years. Not one of those teams lamented the fact they lost him.

Why?

Lee now comes out and if letting people know he doesn't like the way Rondo runs the team.

Is it any coincidence that there were rumors that Danny Ainge was putting a full court press on acquiring JJ. Reddick

What about the earlier articles of players not acting right after losses or taking losing seriously?

Come on people. Wake up. Read between the lines. Lee is a malcontent or locker room headcase. He didn't fit in in other locker rooms and probably doesn't fit well here. Danny is looking to replace him and has targeted Reddick. And why is that? Probably because he feels his game is bigger than it is or because he wants more shots to prove to everyone that it is.

Well, if this is true, then I doubt there is any chance Orlando would take him back.  That said, Orlando should regret trading him for "Wince" Carter.  That was a seriously bad move.

Personally, I like the way Lee has been playing, but do wonder if some of the rumors of players not having the "right" mentality were about Lee, especially now.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 01:11:04 AM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I to agree that rondo and pierce are part of the problem but they are at the very top of the list!

Rondos inconsistent play and pierce bricking everything and mediocre defense is a HUGE problem with this team. Those are like two of your best players not bringing it every night!!

  On 82games they rank each team by position in terms of PER differential (for example, your total pf PER compared to the total PER for power forwards playing against you).

http://www.82games.com/1213/BYPOSL10.HTM

  Our team has the 4th best PER differential in the league at sf and pg, 19th best at c, 24th best at sg and 29th best at pf. I'd say that putting our pg and sf at the top of the list of our team's problems is pretty far removed from reality.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 30, 2013, 01:15:36 AM
Lee has been on 4 teams in 5 years. Not one of those teams lamented the fact they lost him.

Why?

Lee now comes out and if letting people know he doesn't like the way Rondo runs the team.

Is it any coincidence that there were rumors that Danny Ainge was putting a full court press on acquiring JJ. Reddick

What about the earlier articles of players not acting right after losses or taking losing seriously?

Come on people. Wake up. Read between the lines. Lee is a malcontent or locker room headcase. He didn't fit in in other locker rooms and probably doesn't fit well here. Danny is looking to replace him and has targeted Reddick. And why is that? Probably because he feels his game is bigger than it is or because he wants more shots to prove to everyone that it is.

Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions and making crap up. Unbelievable.

First and foremost, he was traded from the Magic because Otis Thorpe is an idiot and thought Vince Carter was the key to get Dwight his championship.

He was traded from the Nets because that was a horrible team, and during that trade they reduced their cap space by $10 million.

Houston always wanted Courtney Lee. They had planned on drafting him, but he went before it got to their pick.

He was traded to Boston because they had a logjam at the position, and they simply were going to waste money on him unnecesarily.

Kevin McHale had nothing but good things to say about Courtney, not only as a player, but expounded on him as a human being and a great person to be around.

Sorry Nick, but you're just way off base here.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: KGs Knee on January 30, 2013, 01:22:25 AM
Lee has been on 4 teams in 5 years. Not one of those teams lamented the fact they lost him.

Why?

Lee now comes out and if letting people know he doesn't like the way Rondo runs the team.

Is it any coincidence that there were rumors that Danny Ainge was putting a full court press on acquiring JJ. Reddick

What about the earlier articles of players not acting right after losses or taking losing seriously?

Come on people. Wake up. Read between the lines. Lee is a malcontent or locker room headcase. He didn't fit in in other locker rooms and probably doesn't fit well here. Danny is looking to replace him and has targeted Reddick. And why is that? Probably because he feels his game is bigger than it is or because he wants more shots to prove to everyone that it is.

Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions and making crap up. Unbelievable.

First and foremost, he was traded from the Magic because Otis Thorpe is an idiot and thought Vince Carter was the key to get Dwight his championship.

He was traded from the Nets because that was a horrible team, and during that trade they reduced their cap space by $10 million.

Houston always wanted Courtney Lee. They had planned on drafting him, but he went before it got to their pick.

He was traded to Boston because they had a logjam at the position, and they simply were going to waste money on him unnecesarily.

Kevin McHale had nothing but good things to say about Courtney, not only as a player, but expounded on him as a human being and a great person to be around.

Sorry Nick, but you're just way off base here.

It's far more logical than blaming a role players issues on Rondo.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on January 30, 2013, 01:27:59 AM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I to agree that rondo and pierce are part of the problem but they are at the very top of the list!

Rondos inconsistent play and pierce bricking everything and mediocre defense is a HUGE problem with this team. Those are like two of your best players not bringing it every night!!

  On 82games they rank each team by position in terms of PER differential (for example, your total pf PER compared to the total PER for power forwards playing against you).

http://www.82games.com/1213/BYPOSL10.HTM

  Our team has the 4th best PER differential in the league at sf and pg, 19th best at c, 24th best at sg and 29th best at pf. I'd say that putting our pg and sf at the top of the list of our team's problems is pretty far removed from reality.

You're kidding me with this right? Rondo plays lazy defense ALOT. Anybody that watches the games sees that. That is a huge problem with this team.

Pierce has been missing alot of shots lately and is showing real signs of slowing down. If you just look at numbers and base everything off of that you will only get half of the story at best.

*Edit* Perfect example off the top of my head. Lebron scored like 30plus points last game. Now if you just look at the numbers you would assume green played poor defense on lebron. Now if you actually watch the game you will know that is far from the truth.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 30, 2013, 02:22:05 AM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.

Oh guy, another Rondo romantic...

You're saying a person has no right to be unhappy?  Lee hasn't gone around complaining to the media.  It's one guy who made hints ad what Lee has 'allegedly' said.

If Lee is in a position where he cannot be effective becuase the team doesn't allow him to play to his strengths, then he has every right to be unhappy.  If he doesn't produce as well as he can it reflects badly on his value as well. 

Don't forget Lee took a paycut to come here and be a part of this winning system - for a team that has been struggling to win.  If he does feel that way then I doubt he's along either, 

You talk about it like Rondo is god's gift to basketball and everyone who gets a chance to play with him should be honoured and worship the gods.  Geez.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 30, 2013, 02:26:39 AM
How is this not entirely Doc's fault?

Because Doc isn't Rondo? Because Doc doesn't sit behind the bench with an Xbox controller that's wired into Rondo's brain?

Doc's only mistake is that he gives Rondo pretty much complete freedom (too much freedom) to make decisions and do what he wants on the court.  Yes that's a bad thing, but Rondo is still the one who's out there doing it.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: action781 on January 30, 2013, 02:30:35 AM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.
Lee has not gone out and said this to the media.  Have you (or anyone) heard him say it?  Lowe says he got this out of "back channels".  Lee is entitled to his feelings and opinions and he's allowed to share those opinions with who he is close to.  If that leaks, it leaks, but he's not going out and selfishly complaining about it publicly.  And when we have as much offensive talent as we do and our offense is as inefficient as it is, well there are 2 natural places to blame - the guy designing the offense (Doc) or the guy running the offense (Rondo).

If the 2008 celtics were under .500 at this point in the season, I have a feeling there would have been grumbling.  I think if everything was ticking, Courtney wouldn't be a unhappy at all.  I believe there is reason for EVERYONE on this team to be unhappy with how the offense is performing and because it is performing far lower than what is expected of them.  Where you place your blame... like I said I think it comes down to 2 possible places.

Danny Ainge ??
Thank you Who.

In general, yes, the GM would be a 3rd place to place blame.  I didn't mention that, but it's because I don't think its a possible place to place the blame on this team.  Did anyone think in the preseason that Danny Ainge had put together a ball club that would be under .500 at this point in the season?  I think Danny did his job.  Something (or things) else is failing.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 30, 2013, 02:31:54 AM
The reason we are not a good team probably has more to do with so many players that want things done their way and want their touches than it has to do with Rondo.

Lee, Barbosa and Bass have all complained about getting time and touches. That's never happened here during the Big Three era because it was TEAM first. I don't see Sully, Pierce, KG, or Bradley doing that. Just players that want their games not being sacrificed for the good of the team.

Seems to me this must be the reason this guy has been on 4 teams in 5 years.
[/quote]

Maybe this has something to do with the fact that both Bass and Barbosa only really have one talent - scoring.  You can't score if you never get the ball, and if these guys aren't scoring their value on the team goes down, and they open themselves up for being traded to lottery teams.

It's a players responsibility to do their best to make the most of their skills, but if you are put in a position where you can't do that because of the system that's in place around you, then I can understand how that could become highly frustrating. 

As for Lee's attitude, he actually has had a positive reputation everywhere he's gone for being a good team mate and a positive locker room guy.  Same can be said for Ray Allen, and also for Bass.  I've never really heard any complaits about Barbosa being a bad locker-room guy either.   

Rondo is well known around the league for havig not such a positive attitude, and for being a little selfish and arrogant.

So, if anybody has the personality problem...I suspect it's Rondo...though I obviously have no proof of this.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 30, 2013, 02:34:00 AM
I've seen Terry frustrated a few times already when he's open in the corner and the pass is not going to him, even on those games when he's actually hitting his shots.

This.  Terry doesn't look free and comfortable at all in this offense...
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 30, 2013, 02:42:36 AM
I can't take this nonsense about "touches" anymore.  The best offensive players on the team get the most touches.  Call me insane, but that sounds about right to me. 

The Celtics are actually one of the teams that spread the rock around the most compared to most other NBA teams. 

Also, I'm really tired of these sports "reporters" and their rumors coming from reliable, unnamed sources.  I, basically, don't believe anything anymore unless somebody is directly quoted.

It's not about who gets the MOST touches.  It's a no-brainer that Pierce and KG are going to get the most plays run for them.

The problem isn't that, the problem is that Rondo often blatantly ignored the other players on the team.  I've lost count of the number of times Rondo has forced a bad pass to a tightly defended Pierce/KG when there has been a WIDE OPEN Terry, Lee or Green in the corner.  Very few of those times has it led to a score. 

I think everybody here has noticed that our new guys look more active when Rondo isn't there.  They move more without the ball, they attack more, they shoot more freely and they just look like they are having fun out there. When Rondo is there they all kinda look like they have been demoted to just being catch-and-shoot guys. 

I feel like Rondo doesn't really trust the new guys yet, which I understand because he hasn't gone to war with them yet, but I think this is hurting the confidence of the other guys on the team.

As I've said many times in the past, there are no issues with Rondo's talent - he is without a double a top 5 or top 10 talent in this league.  The question mark is about his mentality and his attitude.  He reminds me a lot of Allen Iverson back in the day - superstar talent, but an attitude that not even a mother could love. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 30, 2013, 02:53:29 AM
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

That's kinda funny that you think that, because every since Bradley returned that second unit has pretty much been keeping us in games.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 30, 2013, 02:57:20 AM
Williams is a great offensive facilitator. Lots of players have complained about him. His coach retired because of him. Doesn't make him less of a great PG.

Williams probably deserved the complaints too...

It's not about how great a player you are.  Everybody agree's Rondo is a great player.

The mentality of a player can be just as important to success as the ability.

As for Jordan and Kobe, people may have complained about those guys...but nobody has EVERY complained about their work ethic or their will to win every single night.

Rondo on the other hand...
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 30, 2013, 03:07:12 AM
[quote author=Yoki_IsTheName
Excellent post.

The fact that Paul and KG has no complains makes Lee's more ridiculous. If he can get himself open a lot he probably got more touches. Even then, his role is not to shoot a ton of shots, no reason to complain about touches, at all.
[/quote]

1. Of course they aren't complaining about touches, Paul and KG are the only guys Rondo passes to!

2. KG reportedly has had issues with Rondo in the past, but over time learned to respect him
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 30, 2013, 03:16:03 AM
1st, I'm highly skeptical about his supposed "unhappiness".

However, if he is, it's his fault/problem.  Lee is a role player, always has been, and will be.  The job of a role player is to do whatever the team needs him to do to compliment the stars.  Did he really think he was going to come here and get however many shots he pleased?

I can promise you, Danny will not be letting guys like Lee dictate what happens with the teams best player.

If there are enough guys 'like Lee' on the team, then you may be wrong.

I'm sorry to say but basketball is a team game.  If half of your team isn't happy / effective when playing with one specific individual, it's a big problem. 

It's just like any other job.  If you have a team of good and happy workers and one of those workers has trouble geting along with the others, you get rid of that guy.

If half of your team is unhappy because they hate working with their manager, then for the sake of team efficiency you seriously need to consider that the problem may be the manager...and you may need to consider getting a new one.

Why?  Because if half of your team has a problem with your mananger and you fire them and rehire, then chances are half the new guys are going to have problems with the manager too.  Wouldn't you rather just fire the manager, and then everybody in the team is happy?

If the 'big guy' in your team is causing unhapinness amoung the team, and this unhappiness is causing the team to not perform at their best, then you need to get to the root of the problem and get rid of the 'big guy'.   You can't just apply a bandaid by constantly ditching and rehiring the other guys in the team...because then you have no team loyalty, you never build chemistry, and nobody wants to play for you.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 30, 2013, 03:23:18 AM
The bolded part just made me spit up my drink.  No way are we top 3 in talent in the east.  Our two best players we have left are both over 35 years old.  We have one great big, KG, and one with a lot of potential Sully.  We have one formerly great player, who is still great sometimes PP. 

Almost the whole rest of the roster is filled out with good role players.  We have a decent roster, but especially with Rondo out now, we probably have more like 5th-8th seed talent.  Miami, Chicago, NYK, Brook, Indiana, Atlanta all have better talent that us in my opinion.  Not that it matters, we tend to get by on effort and guts and a lot of intangibles.  But to say we have top 3 talent?  Maybe in 2010 we did before Shaq got injured, but not now.

Actually, he's right.

On potential talent alone, we are easilly a top 4 team in the East.  The only other teams you could even make an argument for are Miami, Brooklyn and New York. 

Our level of talent on paper is FAR superior to thatof Chicago, Atlanta and Indiana.

Also we're talking about talent, not age.  KG is every bit as productive on a per minute basis as Josh Smith, and Pierce is every bit as productive on a per minute basis as Luol Deng or Joe Johnson.  Rondo has a level of talent up there with anybody in the East not named Lebron James. 

New York is probably the only team in the East with a bench that can compete with Barbosa, Terry, Lee, Green, Sullinger and Wilcox.  5 of those 6 guys would be starters or 6th men on a lot of teams. 

There is absolutely no question about it that our team is strongly underperforming in relation to the amount of talent we have.  The Bucks and Rose-less Bulls should not be witin 4 games of our record.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 30, 2013, 03:39:22 AM
Lee has been on 4 teams in 5 years. Not one of those teams lamented the fact they lost him.

Why?

Lee now comes out and if letting people know he doesn't like the way Rondo runs the team.

Is it any coincidence that there were rumors that Danny Ainge was putting a full court press on acquiring JJ. Reddick

What about the earlier articles of players not acting right after losses or taking losing seriously?

Come on people. Wake up. Read between the lines. Lee is a malcontent or locker room headcase. He didn't fit in in other locker rooms and probably doesn't fit well here. Danny is looking to replace him and has targeted Reddick. And why is that? Probably because he feels his game is bigger than it is or because he wants more shots to prove to everyone that it is.

No, you are clearly just a Rondo fanboy who can't see past the "Rondo is God" thinking.  This entire thread you've been talking as if Rondo can do NO WRONG. 

The reason why Doc has shown interest in Reddick?  Because we are one of the worse offensive teams in the league, and we NEED another ~15 PPG player who can take some of the scoring load off Pierce and KG.

The problem is that given our talent level, we shouldn't be anywhere near the bottom of the league offensively.  Somehow though Terry, Green, Lee and Bass have all struggled with their scoring this season, and if you get 3 PPG less from each of those guys, that's 12PPG less we are scoring as a team...and that's a huge difference.

Is an average of 3 PPG unfeasible?  Not really.  Green and Terry should be up around 12PPG, but both are averaging about 9 PPG.  Lee should be up around 8 PPG, and he's at about 7.  Bass was averaging 14 PPG last season, now he's at 8 PPG.

Overall that's 13 PPG less we're getting from those guys than we probably should be.

Barbosa has probably been the only guy who (when on the court) has been gettig his points as expected, and ironically he's the one guy who tends to create his own shots rather than score off assists.

Bradley's numbers are down too.

Rondo fan's point the finger at anybody just so it's not pointing at Rondo - if it's not the players it's the coach, if it's not him then it's DA. 

Rondo pretty much runs this offense from the word go.  A lot of the time Doc doesn't even tell them what to run, he leaves it up to Rondo to dictate. 

I honestly find it difficult to believe that Terry, Lee, Green and Bass (guys who have all been the model of consistency over their careers) are all having down years, and it's purely by coincidence.

You can blame DA, but he brought an INCREDIBLE amount of talent here given what he had available. 

You can blame Doc, but he's consistently shown the ability to make the most of a very small amount of talent over the years.

 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on January 30, 2013, 04:02:34 AM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

dude you are seriously rondo'd. I don't know how you can flip the initial issue back to Lee. If the rumor is true, and i believe it is, he just being honest. He has played in the league enough years to know what he doesn't appreciate on the court. Why does he get zero touches for 4 minutes and have to bust his azz off on defense?? The guy is not a defensive specialist naturally

If rondo by himself Jordan us to the top of the standings, then nobody can say anything bad. I'd trade lee in 2 seconds if this were the case. BUT its not the case and we have been losing all year 50 percent of the time. The celts team is packed with talent , enough so that we should be a top three team in the conference.

I guess once we go on a honest and simple winning streak continuing with beat sac tomorrow, you might slightly sober up from Rondo mania.

The bolded part just made me spit up my drink.  No way are we top 3 in talent in the east.  Our two best players we have left are both over 35 years old.  We have one great big, KG, and one with a lot of potential Sully.  We have one formerly great player, who is still great sometimes PP. 

Almost the whole rest of the roster is filled out with good role players.  We have a decent roster, but especially with Rondo out now, we probably have more like 5th-8th seed talent.  Miami, Chicago, NYK, Brook, Indiana, Atlanta all have better talent that us in my opinion.  Not that it matters, we tend to get by on effort and guts and a lot of intangibles.  But to say we have top 3 talent?  Maybe in 2010 we did before Shaq got injured, but not now.

I don't get it... you say we have the talent w/o RR to be a 5th seed but that we aren't top 3 with him? What did we have the talent for, 4th seed, with RR? So with RR we are slightly better? If you think a team without RR could be a 5th seed, I don't see why it's so absurd to say we have the talent for a 3rd seed WITH RR.

I didn't say anything about our talent level WITH Rondo.  Re-read my post.  You even highlighted in your post.  My comment was with Rondo OUT we are probably 5-8th seed talent. 

With Rondo, I honestly don't know where we stand talent wise, obviously higher.  But unfortunately our record certainly doesn't seem to indicate it.  1/2 way into the season, with no major injuries (pre Rondo injury) you pretty much are what your record says.

You didn't say it, you inferred it... you said that our talent without RR was a 5th-8th seed, so if you think RR makes us better then we were probably good enough for a 3 seed. Which you pretty much said we aren't. The part that you made bold in the original person's comment said that with the talent we have (on paper) we should be a top 3 team... he was talking about with RR! I don't need to reread your post, you need to reread what you were commenting on.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: blink on January 30, 2013, 04:20:26 AM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

dude you are seriously rondo'd. I don't know how you can flip the initial issue back to Lee. If the rumor is true, and i believe it is, he just being honest. He has played in the league enough years to know what he doesn't appreciate on the court. Why does he get zero touches for 4 minutes and have to bust his azz off on defense?? The guy is not a defensive specialist naturally

If rondo by himself Jordan us to the top of the standings, then nobody can say anything bad. I'd trade lee in 2 seconds if this were the case. BUT its not the case and we have been losing all year 50 percent of the time. The celts team is packed with talent , enough so that we should be a top three team in the conference.

I guess once we go on a honest and simple winning streak continuing with beat sac tomorrow, you might slightly sober up from Rondo mania.

The bolded part just made me spit up my drink.  No way are we top 3 in talent in the east.  Our two best players we have left are both over 35 years old.  We have one great big, KG, and one with a lot of potential Sully.  We have one formerly great player, who is still great sometimes PP. 

Almost the whole rest of the roster is filled out with good role players.  We have a decent roster, but especially with Rondo out now, we probably have more like 5th-8th seed talent.  Miami, Chicago, NYK, Brook, Indiana, Atlanta all have better talent that us in my opinion.  Not that it matters, we tend to get by on effort and guts and a lot of intangibles.  But to say we have top 3 talent?  Maybe in 2010 we did before Shaq got injured, but not now.

I don't get it... you say we have the talent w/o RR to be a 5th seed but that we aren't top 3 with him? What did we have the talent for, 4th seed, with RR? So with RR we are slightly better? If you think a team without RR could be a 5th seed, I don't see why it's so absurd to say we have the talent for a 3rd seed WITH RR.

I didn't say anything about our talent level WITH Rondo.  Re-read my post.  You even highlighted in your post.  My comment was with Rondo OUT we are probably 5-8th seed talent. 

With Rondo, I honestly don't know where we stand talent wise, obviously higher.  But unfortunately our record certainly doesn't seem to indicate it.  1/2 way into the season, with no major injuries (pre Rondo injury) you pretty much are what your record says.

You didn't say it, you inferred it... you said that our talent without RR was a 5th-8th seed, so if you think RR makes us better then we were probably good enough for a 3 seed. Which you pretty much said we aren't. The part that you made bold in the original person's comment said that with the talent we have (on paper) we should be a top 3 team... he was talking about with RR! I don't need to reread your post, you need to reread what you were commenting on.

I don't know what you are talking about, or why you are so upset.  I gave my opinion. 

The previous poster used the verb "is".  As in "this Celtics team IS packed with talent".  That is a PRESENT TENSE VERB!  So I assumed he meant with Rondo out.  I said with Rondo out we are a 5-8th seed talent wise.  I said I don't know where we are WITH Rondo.  YOU are the one misinterpreting.  I was extremely clear in what I posted.  If you disagree with my thoughts, oh well.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Gomesfan on January 30, 2013, 07:35:02 AM
Why don't we get on the Memphis Toronto deal and send out Lee &  Bass and get back Ed Davis and Calderón? That trade works straight up on the trade machine and we get an expiring 10 million dollar contract.... Or is Toronto trying to shed money and not take on Bass and Lee's contracts for the next couple of years? I would to rather have Lowry..... At least Calderón shoots 99% from the line.... Lol
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: bfrombleacher on January 30, 2013, 07:40:22 AM
Why don't we get on the Memphis Toronto deal and send out Lee &  Bass and get back Ed Davis and Calderón? That trade works straight up on the trade machine and we get an expiring 10 million dollar contract.... Or is Toronto trying to shed money and not take on Bass and Lee's contracts for the next couple of years? I would to rather have Lowry..... At least Calderón shoots 99% from the line.... Lol

They want to shed Bargnani and Lowry, not Davis and Calderone.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Gomesfan on January 30, 2013, 07:54:39 AM
Why don't we get on the Memphis Toronto deal and send out Lee &  Bass and get back Ed Davis and Calderón? That trade works straight up on the trade machine and we get an expiring 10 million dollar contract.... Or is Toronto trying to shed money and not take on Bass and Lee's contracts for the next couple of years? I would to rather have Lowry..... At least Calderón shoots 99% from the line.... Lol

They want to shed Bargnani and Lowry, not Davis and Calderone.
All the articles Isee say they are looking for a third team to take CCalderón?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 08:20:35 AM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I to agree that rondo and pierce are part of the problem but they are at the very top of the list!

Rondos inconsistent play and pierce bricking everything and mediocre defense is a HUGE problem with this team. Those are like two of your best players not bringing it every night!!

  On 82games they rank each team by position in terms of PER differential (for example, your total pf PER compared to the total PER for power forwards playing against you).

http://www.82games.com/1213/BYPOSL10.HTM

  Our team has the 4th best PER differential in the league at sf and pg, 19th best at c, 24th best at sg and 29th best at pf. I'd say that putting our pg and sf at the top of the list of our team's problems is pretty far removed from reality.

You're kidding me with this right? Rondo plays lazy defense ALOT. Anybody that watches the games sees that. That is a huge problem with this team.

  I get it. You think that players like Bradley and Lee, who play around 22 minutes a game and spend much of their time on offense doing nothing besides standing in a corner, put in more effort than Rondo on defense. You might be right. You also seem to think that's the main way to evaluate a player's worth to a team, and that you can ignore the fact that Rondo's contributions on offense dwarfs theirs. That's where you're wrong.

Pierce has been missing alot of shots lately and is showing real signs of slowing down. If you just look at numbers and base everything off of that you will only get half of the story at best.

  Yes, PP is slowing down, but you also have to consider that a) most of the other players on the roster have had fairly up and down years and b) he was so much more important to the team to begin with than your "non-problem" players that he'll still have to slow down more to get to their level.

*Edit* Perfect example off the top of my head. Lebron scored like 30plus points last game. Now if you just look at the numbers you would assume green played poor defense on lebron. Now if you actually watch the game you will know that is far from the truth.

  Sure, but do you realize that the numbers that I'm showing are for half a season and not just one game? Sometimes Green gets matched up with James, plays good defense and gets bad stats from it. The next night he'll play against Prince or Webster and give up much less scoring. It evens out over time.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ssspence on January 30, 2013, 09:34:28 AM
I think there's a very simple important point here for Celtics fans that supercedes Lee, or any role player.

Rondo is developing a clear reputation for being difficult. Difficult to communicate with, difficult to please, difficult to play with. Hard headed. Petulant. Judging from his demeanor on and off the court, I can't say it's all that surprising to keep seeing this bubble to the surface.

Whether it's a Vet Min player or a HOF'er, whether you like or dislike Lee, whether it's justified or not, is completely beside the point. No blogger can influence it. It is, as they say, what it is. If NBA players feel that way, then they do -- and it's a factor in the future of the team.

That said, it's something to watch. If the Cs reel off a significantly better second half of the year, it won't make them contenders, but it should tell all of us -- just as it will tell the Cs organization -- something very important about Rondo's viability as a franchise player to build around. 

I couldn't care less about whether Courtney Lee is a terrific guy or a li'l weasel. What I care about is avoiding another late-90's early-00's style rebuild. If Rondo is going to be a negative force on the Celtics locker room (as guys are drafted), and therefore the Celtics brand (as Ainge attempts to sign FAs)... I want to know that. We all should.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Roy H. on January 30, 2013, 09:40:12 AM
Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 09:48:04 AM
I think there's a very simple important point here for Celtics fans that supercedes Lee, or any role player.

Rondo is developing a clear reputation for being difficult. Difficult to communicate with, difficult to please, difficult to play with. Hard headed. Petulant. Judging from his demeanor on and off the court, I can't say it's all that surprising to keep seeing this bubble to the surface.


  While it's true Rondo's a little high strung I don't think he's developing a bad reputation as much as people are trying to pin one on him. Last year there was a lot of talk about whether we could rebuild around Rondo and many posters stated that we'd never be able to attract free agents in Boston because none of them would want to play with Rondo. Lo and behold, the people who came here were talking about wanting to play with Rondo as being a big plus.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Chris on January 30, 2013, 09:48:08 AM
While the offense they ran with Rondo certainly caused issues (reportedly Ray Allen hated it too), I also think there is another issue this year, and that is the depth of the team.

We look at depth as a good thing, and generally it is.  However, in the NBA, having a lot of guys who are all around the same skill level always causes issues to some degree.

If the team is winning, it can generally be glossed over a bit, but once the losses start piling up, then things can get ugly.

And I am not sure there is any amount of coaching that can really avoid that.  If you try to make everyone happy, you are just going to make everyone miserable, because no one will get the shots they want.  If you try to pick and choose who to use, then you will have fewer miserable players, but they might be much more angry, and could really cause problems in the lockerroom.

Of course the problem is, it is really hard to get elite talent in the NBA, and if you don't have that elite talent, then your only chance to even try to win is with depth...but that is just so hard to balance. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: MBunge on January 30, 2013, 09:57:23 AM
I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

Including Rondo.

Mike
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Evantime34 on January 30, 2013, 09:58:06 AM
Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.
Hopefully while Rondo is out they are able to implement a more motion oriented offense. Then when he comes back they add his fast break skills to that motion offense.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 30, 2013, 10:06:37 AM
I just never understood why we don't have Rondo playing more off the ball. It's what we did when we won the championship, and back then he was awful with his jumpshot, and very hesitant.

Now he's making them, he's more confident in his game. He's a dangerous slasher when he wants to be.

This doesn't mean either that he won't be touching the ball often within the frame of the system, but I've always felt that the way he dominates the ball is completely counter-productive for us and for him.

Doc and Rondo share the blame on this particular regard, Doc for his system, and it's Rondo out there calling the plays and executing them however he sees fit.

I think this part is quite important from Terry:


“Now we really have to execute our game plan,” he said before Tuesday’s workout. “A lot of times Rajon was able to call his own game, and now we’ve really got to be in tune to what Doc’s saying in timeouts.

“Today’s a key practice for us.”


I think this particular portion of the offensive system left a lot wondering what the heck they should do play to play, and wondering what they think Rondo wants to do from play to play, which means a lot of indecision and stagnation. Again, counter-productive.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ssspence on January 30, 2013, 10:11:40 AM
I think there's a very simple important point here for Celtics fans that supercedes Lee, or any role player.

Rondo is developing a clear reputation for being difficult. Difficult to communicate with, difficult to please, difficult to play with. Hard headed. Petulant. Judging from his demeanor on and off the court, I can't say it's all that surprising to keep seeing this bubble to the surface.


  While it's true Rondo's a little high strung I don't think he's developing a bad reputation as much as people are trying to pin one on him. Last year there was a lot of talk about whether we could rebuild around Rondo and many posters stated that we'd never be able to attract free agents in Boston because none of them would want to play with Rondo. Lo and behold, the people who came here were talking about wanting to play with Rondo as being a big plus.

Yep, and the guy's still an assist machine -- which should make him attractive to shooters and scorers.

Yet it's not last year anymore. Some of those guys are now a little grumpier, and Ray Allen has since aired his dirty laundry (which I find pretty weak, but doesn't ensure NBA players do). Again, I think it bears continued monitoring.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Chris on January 30, 2013, 10:12:00 AM
I just never understood why we don't have Rondo playing more off the ball. It's what we did when we won the championship, and back then he was awful with his jumpshot, and very hesitant.


Well, this is actually pretty simple.  When we had Rondo playing off the ball, KG, Ray, and Pierce were still much more capable of carrying the team offensively, and allowing Rondo to basically be an afterthought offensively. 

As they got older, they couldn't do that consistently, which meant the C's needed someone with younger legs to take up the slack offensively, and Rondo did that. 

The problem with Rondo is that if you play him off the ball, he is basically useless in the flow of the offense, and he kills the spacing.  When the ball is his hands however, he is very dangerous. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 10:12:08 AM
Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

  It's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to take 20+ shots a game as well. That doesn't mean that would be best for the team. Terry even acknowledges that, although he'd like to have a bigger role in the offense, that having Rondo run the offense makes the team the best it can possibly be.

  By the way, from reading the article, how did you feel about the fairly clear inference in the article that at least some of the players were going to play harder and with more energy now? People here would be killing Rondo if he ever intimated something like that, now the players who haven't been putting in the effort get a pass because it's somehow Rondo's fault.

  By the way, I loved this quote:

“Now we really have to execute our game plan,” he said before Tuesday’s workout. “A lot of times Rajon was able to call his own game, and now we’ve really got to be in tune to what Doc’s saying in timeouts.


Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 30, 2013, 10:19:31 AM
I just never understood why we don't have Rondo playing more off the ball. It's what we did when we won the championship, and back then he was awful with his jumpshot, and very hesitant.


Well, this is actually pretty simple.  When we had Rondo playing off the ball, KG, Ray, and Pierce were still much more capable of carrying the team offensively, and allowing Rondo to basically be an afterthought offensively. 

As they got older, they couldn't do that consistently, which meant the C's needed someone with younger legs to take up the slack offensively, and Rondo did that. 

The problem with Rondo is that if you play him off the ball, he is basically useless in the flow of the offense, and he kills the spacing.  When the ball is his hands however, he is very dangerous.

I don't think that's true at all.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Celtics18 on January 30, 2013, 10:29:52 AM
Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

To me, it just sounds like a guy trying to put a positive spin on a difficult situation. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Galeto on January 30, 2013, 10:38:32 AM
This isn't surprising at all.  As boring as basketball is to watch when one guy dribbles the ball all the time, I mean all time in every situation, it has to be just as boring to participate in.  Doc created a monster in the mid-way point of the 2010 season when he decided that the way to get Rondo playing aggressively was by giving him every outlet pass and not letting anyone else bring up the ball.  I noticed the change immediately because it was so repetitive and so unlike how the Celtics had been playing before and how every other team plays. 

One of my frustrations with this new style of play, beyond how tedious and boring it was, was that it wasn't successful.  The Rondo Dribbling Exhibition led to low-rated offenses.  At one point, wouldn't you decide that it's not working and change up, even if just to see what happpens? I get that the counterclaim is that his teammates got old and Rondo had to take on the biggest burden of anybody else in the league but what was Rondo backstopping really?  Was he preventing the Celtics from being the 30th ranked offense in the league?  I doubt it. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Chris on January 30, 2013, 10:41:32 AM
I just never understood why we don't have Rondo playing more off the ball. It's what we did when we won the championship, and back then he was awful with his jumpshot, and very hesitant.


Well, this is actually pretty simple.  When we had Rondo playing off the ball, KG, Ray, and Pierce were still much more capable of carrying the team offensively, and allowing Rondo to basically be an afterthought offensively. 

As they got older, they couldn't do that consistently, which meant the C's needed someone with younger legs to take up the slack offensively, and Rondo did that. 

The problem with Rondo is that if you play him off the ball, he is basically useless in the flow of the offense, and he kills the spacing.  When the ball is his hands however, he is very dangerous.

I don't think that's true at all.

How do?  Could you elaborate?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Galeto on January 30, 2013, 10:43:15 AM
Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

To me, it just sounds like a guy trying to put a positive spin on a difficult situation.

I feel differently.  The comments about Rondo read as not trying to create controversy and not kicking a guy while he's down.  I read excitement and a whiff, Finally!, in his comments about how they're going to play from now on.  Or maybe that's just me because that's how I'm feeling.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on January 30, 2013, 10:48:38 AM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.
Lee has not gone out and said this to the media.  Have you (or anyone) heard him say it?  Lowe says he got this out of "back channels".  Lee is entitled to his feelings and opinions and he's allowed to share those opinions with who he is close to.  If that leaks, it leaks, but he's not going out and selfishly complaining about it publicly.  And when we have as much offensive talent as we do and our offense is as inefficient as it is, well there are 2 natural places to blame - the guy designing the offense (Doc) or the guy running the offense (Rondo).

If the 2008 celtics were under .500 at this point in the season, I have a feeling there would have been grumbling.  I think if everything was ticking, Courtney wouldn't be a unhappy at all.  I believe there is reason for EVERYONE on this team to be unhappy with how the offense is performing and because it is performing far lower than what is expected of them.  Where you place your blame... like I said I think it comes down to 2 possible places.

Thank you for your voice of sanity. It's quite true: this is on Doc and/or Rondo.

It's only logical to think that if Danny goes after certain players, it's because he likes their game and wants to incorporate their game into Boston's scheme. So he goes out and gets Jason Terry, a great pick-and-roll player in Dallas ... and Doc hardly uses him in the P&R. Danny goes to great lengths to get Courtney Lee, who's quite athletic and is capable of cutting and getting to the rim ... yet Doc glues him to the corner 3. Danny brings in Leandro Barbosa, a player known for an explosive offensive game, a guy who'll just put his head down and get to the rack, more often than not leading to something good for his team ... and Doc hardly uses him.

Doc has always favored the older guys, but the older guys can no longer carry the load, so Doc puts the ball in Rondo's hands more and more, which isn't Rondo's fault, but we don't have a multiscreen offensive player (Ray) anymore, and Rondo doesn't like to drive, because he dislikes contact, so what ends up happening? Pound, pound, pound, until Pierce or KG get open, or else Rondo puts up a (for him) low-percentage outside shot, while all these other players—who have their own gifts and abilities—are left standing around like a bunch of window-display dummies, not only to create or play to their strengths.

I, for one, am excited to see what could happen with our offense now that Doc doesn't have his binky to rely on. It certainly looked alright in the Miami game.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Celtics18 on January 30, 2013, 10:53:43 AM
This isn't surprising at all.  As boring as basketball is to watch when one guy dribbles the ball all the time, I mean all time in every situation, it has to be just as boring to participate in.  Doc created a monster in the mid-way point of the 2010 season when he decided that the way to get Rondo playing aggressively was by giving him every outlet pass and not letting anyone else bring up the ball.  I noticed the change immediately because it was so repetitive and so unlike how the Celtics had been playing before and how every other team plays. 

One of my frustrations with this new style of play, beyond how tedious and boring it was, was that it wasn't successful.  The Rondo Dribbling Exhibition led to low-rated offenses.  At one point, wouldn't you decide that it's not working and change up, even if just to see what happpens? I get that the counterclaim is that his teammates got old and Rondo had to take on the biggest burden of anybody else in the league but what was Rondo backstopping really?  Was he preventing the Celtics from being the 30th ranked offense in the league?  I doubt it.

The Celtics aren't the 30th ranked offense in the league.  They are the 21st ranked offense in the league.  Their field goal percentage and TS% are among the top of the league as is their assist rate.  The two factors killing their offense the most are lack of offensive rebounding and poor three point shooting.  Neither of those two things can be blamed on Rondo.  We have neither the personnel nor the offensive philosophy to be a good offensive rebounding team.  That's certainly not Rondo's fault.  The fact that both Terry and Pierce-- our two primary three point shooters--have been unable to make open looks from long range at anywhere near their career averages so far this season can't be pinned on Rondo, either.
 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 30, 2013, 10:54:22 AM
I just never understood why we don't have Rondo playing more off the ball. It's what we did when we won the championship, and back then he was awful with his jumpshot, and very hesitant.


Well, this is actually pretty simple.  When we had Rondo playing off the ball, KG, Ray, and Pierce were still much more capable of carrying the team offensively, and allowing Rondo to basically be an afterthought offensively. 

As they got older, they couldn't do that consistently, which meant the C's needed someone with younger legs to take up the slack offensively, and Rondo did that. 

The problem with Rondo is that if you play him off the ball, he is basically useless in the flow of the offense, and he kills the spacing.  When the ball is his hands however, he is very dangerous.

I don't think that's true at all.

How do?  Could you elaborate?

The notion that playing Rondo off the ball insinuates that someone else needs to carry the team offensively.

Also, as is, Pierce and KG are still carrying a bulk load of our offense... all you're doing with Rondo right now is giving them the ball later in the shot clock.

And I disagree with the "basically useless" aspect of the flow of the offense. If anything Rondo has shown, is that he's become a pretty good spot up shooter. If the spacing is not there, all it means is that Rondo is open for a shot, a shot he's actually taking (it hurts us in previous years because he wasn't comfortable taking it). But he needs to be in a space where he actually can make a shot. What we're doing right now is that once the ball leaves his hands he stays around the 3-point arc, and if you don't have Rondo slashing, then it hurts us.

Rondo with the ball in his hands is only dangerous when, you know, he's actually doing something with it. As is, too often is really not doing anything, and that's a problem. People complain about Chris Paul and Westbrook pounding the ball, I'd take their pounding of the ball and how it affects the offense, over Rondo's version of pounding the ball.

This would be a different story if Rondo thought of himself as a primary scoring threat. Doesn't mean he won't pass the ball, but his passiveness as he waits for plays to "develop" is not very productive in my opinion.

You can constantly play Rondo off the ball, and still have him touching the ball 2 to 3 times in a possession, depending on how it goes within the frame of a more dynamic offense.

All I'm saying is that there's plenty of room to use Rondo more off the ball, and we'd be the better for it.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Galeto on January 30, 2013, 10:56:59 AM
In 2008, when Rondo played off the ball about 100 percent more than he did the past three years, he stood in the corners more.  I re-watched the 2008 Finals and he was there a lot.  That minimized as much as possible how much Rondo's defender could roam and muck up the middle and post-ups.  Ever since Rondo became Rondo, the all-star and one of the best players in the league, his off the ball position has been on the wings or in the middle of the court.  I always thought that perhaps Rondo thought standing in the corner was a little beneath him.  Unsurprisingly, that's allowed his defender to easily choke off drives to the middle or post-ups to his side of the court. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 30, 2013, 10:59:16 AM
Now is time for Lee to put up or shut up with Rondo out.

I agree with Lee , Rondo holds theball far too much , Rondo takes far too much time to put the ball into play

Anxious to see what Barbosa and Lee can do with more movement and team play...........

rondo can be be like Kobe and have too much control for the best  team effort to emerge
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: scaryjerry on January 30, 2013, 11:00:46 AM
Lee is an average role player at best...so waaah. The rondo system had gotten the best out of a lot of our guys, mainly kg....this year because of attitudes like Lee's it hasn't as well after a great start for rajon.. that's been on doc as much as anyone...I'm sure Terry and green both felt the same .....this is on the role players bad attitudes first and foremost...if they embraced it and fit the system they would see results like Avery, bass last year and other role player

Irrelevant now but I don't know who lee thinks he is? Clearly he's delusional....his talents really could have flourished with rondo if he had the right attitude....but he couldn't even start alongside rondo when Avery was out...obviously because doc knew of this whining.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Galeto on January 30, 2013, 11:04:56 AM
This isn't surprising at all.  As boring as basketball is to watch when one guy dribbles the ball all the time, I mean all time in every situation, it has to be just as boring to participate in.  Doc created a monster in the mid-way point of the 2010 season when he decided that the way to get Rondo playing aggressively was by giving him every outlet pass and not letting anyone else bring up the ball.  I noticed the change immediately because it was so repetitive and so unlike how the Celtics had been playing before and how every other team plays. 

One of my frustrations with this new style of play, beyond how tedious and boring it was, was that it wasn't successful.  The Rondo Dribbling Exhibition led to low-rated offenses.  At one point, wouldn't you decide that it's not working and change up, even if just to see what happpens? I get that the counterclaim is that his teammates got old and Rondo had to take on the biggest burden of anybody else in the league but what was Rondo backstopping really?  Was he preventing the Celtics from being the 30th ranked offense in the league?  I doubt it.

The Celtics aren't the 30th ranked offense in the league.  They are the 21st ranked offense in the league.  Their field goal percentage and TS% are among the top of the league as is their assist rate.  The two factors killing their offense the most are lack of offensive rebounding and poor three point shooting.  Neither of those two things can be blamed on Rondo.  We have neither the personnel nor the offensive philosophy to be a good offensive rebounding team.  That's certainly not Rondo's fault.  The fact that both Terry and Pierce-- our two primary three point shooters--have been unable to make open looks from long range at anywhere near their career averages so far this season can't be pinned on Rondo, either.

You missed my point.  First off though, they are actually the 28th rated offense this year.  They were 27th last year too.  My point was, was letting Rondo dominate the ball so much saving them from being the 30th rated offense or perhaps the worst offense of all time?  Even if you were Doc and said, Yes, Rondo is the guy saving this team from scoring 60 a night, wouldn't you want to at least see what the alternative could be?  What was there to lose?  I could understand keeping with the status quo if Rondo was directing top 10 offenses but to not change ANYTHING in the face of putrid offenses, well, that made me hate Doc's coaching.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Celtics18 on January 30, 2013, 11:05:48 AM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.
Lee has not gone out and said this to the media.  Have you (or anyone) heard him say it?  Lowe says he got this out of "back channels".  Lee is entitled to his feelings and opinions and he's allowed to share those opinions with who he is close to.  If that leaks, it leaks, but he's not going out and selfishly complaining about it publicly.  And when we have as much offensive talent as we do and our offense is as inefficient as it is, well there are 2 natural places to blame - the guy designing the offense (Doc) or the guy running the offense (Rondo).

If the 2008 celtics were under .500 at this point in the season, I have a feeling there would have been grumbling.  I think if everything was ticking, Courtney wouldn't be a unhappy at all.  I believe there is reason for EVERYONE on this team to be unhappy with how the offense is performing and because it is performing far lower than what is expected of them.  Where you place your blame... like I said I think it comes down to 2 possible places.

Thank you for your voice of sanity. It's quite true: this is on Doc and/or Rondo.

It's only logical to think that if Danny goes after certain players, it's because he likes their game and wants to incorporate their game into Boston's scheme. So he goes out and gets Jason Terry, a great pick-and-roll player in Dallas ... and Doc hardly uses him in the P&R. Danny goes to great lengths to get Courtney Lee, who's quite athletic and is capable of cutting and getting to the rim ... yet Doc glues him to the corner 3. Danny brings in Leandro Barbosa, a player known for an explosive offensive game, a guy who'll just put his head down and get to the rack, more often than not leading to something good for his team ... and Doc hardly uses him.

Doc has always favored the older guys, but the older guys can no longer carry the load, so Doc puts the ball in Rondo's hands more and more, which isn't Rondo's fault, but we don't have a multiscreen offensive player (Ray) anymore, and Rondo doesn't like to drive, because he dislikes contact, so what ends up happening? Pound, pound, pound, until Pierce or KG get open, or else Rondo puts up a (for him) low-percentage outside shot, while all these other players—who have their own gifts and abilities—are left standing around like a bunch of window-display dummies, not only to create or play to their strengths.

I, for one, am excited to see what could happen with our offense now that Doc doesn't have his binky to rely on. It certainly looked alright in the Miami game.

I'm sorry guys, but Rondo has been our best player for the first half of the season.  The fact that Jason Terry and Paul Pierce have been unable to hit shots isn't his fault. 

The repeated assertion that Rondo doesn't like to drive is completely untrue.  He gets in the lane a lot and makes good things happen when he does.  This is what makes him an elite player.  Are there possessions where he dribbles the ball at the top of the key, waiting for someone to get open off the ball?  Yes. 

Someone, do me a favor and watch a Clippers game sometime, and pay attention to how often Chris Paul--the best point guard in the league--pounds the ball at the top of the key. 

I hope to see this team start to play better.  If they do, it will be because some guys who have been subpar so far this year, particularly Pierce and Terry, step up their games now that Rondo is down.  If they can do that, I'll be thrilled, but it won't be an indictment against Rondo. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: eugen on January 30, 2013, 11:13:24 AM
The point is...Is better to trust the Rondos offensive talent+egoism or to trust more offensive productive work team?!
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Galeto on January 30, 2013, 11:18:51 AM
You know what? Lee is a journeyman bench SG or fringe starter at best and has been on 4 teams in 5 years. The last thing he should be doing is complaining about how an offense runs, how many touches he gets or anything else.

He's just gotten to a good team for the first time since his rookie year. And before the season is half over and just after that team's starting PG and All-Star goes down with a season ending injury, he starts complaining?

Ship him out of town along with Bass. I don't need role players complaining about how the team is being run, their playing time or their touches. When the Big Three came together they all sacrificed their touches and shots and the way they were used to things being run in favor of a team concept. Last thing I want while those players are still on the team is role players complaining about stuff those HOFers sacrificed to win a championship.
Lee has not gone out and said this to the media.  Have you (or anyone) heard him say it?  Lowe says he got this out of "back channels".  Lee is entitled to his feelings and opinions and he's allowed to share those opinions with who he is close to.  If that leaks, it leaks, but he's not going out and selfishly complaining about it publicly.  And when we have as much offensive talent as we do and our offense is as inefficient as it is, well there are 2 natural places to blame - the guy designing the offense (Doc) or the guy running the offense (Rondo).

If the 2008 celtics were under .500 at this point in the season, I have a feeling there would have been grumbling.  I think if everything was ticking, Courtney wouldn't be a unhappy at all.  I believe there is reason for EVERYONE on this team to be unhappy with how the offense is performing and because it is performing far lower than what is expected of them.  Where you place your blame... like I said I think it comes down to 2 possible places.

Thank you for your voice of sanity. It's quite true: this is on Doc and/or Rondo.

It's only logical to think that if Danny goes after certain players, it's because he likes their game and wants to incorporate their game into Boston's scheme. So he goes out and gets Jason Terry, a great pick-and-roll player in Dallas ... and Doc hardly uses him in the P&R. Danny goes to great lengths to get Courtney Lee, who's quite athletic and is capable of cutting and getting to the rim ... yet Doc glues him to the corner 3. Danny brings in Leandro Barbosa, a player known for an explosive offensive game, a guy who'll just put his head down and get to the rack, more often than not leading to something good for his team ... and Doc hardly uses him.

Doc has always favored the older guys, but the older guys can no longer carry the load, so Doc puts the ball in Rondo's hands more and more, which isn't Rondo's fault, but we don't have a multiscreen offensive player (Ray) anymore, and Rondo doesn't like to drive, because he dislikes contact, so what ends up happening? Pound, pound, pound, until Pierce or KG get open, or else Rondo puts up a (for him) low-percentage outside shot, while all these other players—who have their own gifts and abilities—are left standing around like a bunch of window-display dummies, not only to create or play to their strengths.

I, for one, am excited to see what could happen with our offense now that Doc doesn't have his binky to rely on. It certainly looked alright in the Miami game.

I think both Doc and Rondo were to blame.  For instance, who you do blame for Terry only taking 9 shots off the dribble all year after using screens playing with Rondo? I can't say it's all Doc because Rondo's the one who had the ball all the time which invariably, you know, prevented shots off the dribble for Terry.  But at the same time, isn't Doc the coach and couldn't he have demanded that Terry see the ball more?  At the same time there too, this is the coach who complained to the media after a game in Chicago a few seasons ago that Big Baby took too many shots in the fourth quarter and that they should have involved Pierce and Ray more (I think they had like 2 shots combined).  If only Doc knew the coach of the Boston Celtics and had the power to change things.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Celtics18 on January 30, 2013, 11:21:11 AM
This isn't surprising at all.  As boring as basketball is to watch when one guy dribbles the ball all the time, I mean all time in every situation, it has to be just as boring to participate in.  Doc created a monster in the mid-way point of the 2010 season when he decided that the way to get Rondo playing aggressively was by giving him every outlet pass and not letting anyone else bring up the ball.  I noticed the change immediately because it was so repetitive and so unlike how the Celtics had been playing before and how every other team plays. 

One of my frustrations with this new style of play, beyond how tedious and boring it was, was that it wasn't successful.  The Rondo Dribbling Exhibition led to low-rated offenses.  At one point, wouldn't you decide that it's not working and change up, even if just to see what happpens? I get that the counterclaim is that his teammates got old and Rondo had to take on the biggest burden of anybody else in the league but what was Rondo backstopping really?  Was he preventing the Celtics from being the 30th ranked offense in the league?  I doubt it.

The Celtics aren't the 30th ranked offense in the league.  They are the 21st ranked offense in the league.  Their field goal percentage and TS% are among the top of the league as is their assist rate.  The two factors killing their offense the most are lack of offensive rebounding and poor three point shooting.  Neither of those two things can be blamed on Rondo.  We have neither the personnel nor the offensive philosophy to be a good offensive rebounding team.  That's certainly not Rondo's fault.  The fact that both Terry and Pierce-- our two primary three point shooters--have been unable to make open looks from long range at anywhere near their career averages so far this season can't be pinned on Rondo, either.

You missed my point.  First off though, they are actually the 28th rated offense this year.  They were 27th last year too.  My point was, was letting Rondo dominate the ball so much saving them from being the 30th rated offense or perhaps the worst offense of all time?  Even if you were Doc and said, Yes, Rondo is the guy saving this team from scoring 60 a night, wouldn't you want to at least see what the alternative could be?  What was there to lose?  I could understand keeping with the status quo if Rondo was directing top 10 offenses but to not change ANYTHING in the face of putrid offenses, well, that made me hate Doc's coaching.

You seem to have missed my point, as well.  My point is that our poor offensive numbers don't stem from the ball being in Rondo's hands.  They stem from poor offensive rebounding and poor three point shooting.   Rondo has control over a lot of what happens with the offense, but he doesn't have control over the fact that Doc has designed a system that down plays crashing the offensive boards.  He also doesn't have control over the fact that his best three point shooters are shooting well below their own standards from long range so far this season. 
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on January 30, 2013, 11:26:03 AM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I to agree that rondo and pierce are part of the problem but they are at the very top of the list!

Rondos inconsistent play and pierce bricking everything and mediocre defense is a HUGE problem with this team. Those are like two of your best players not bringing it every night!!

  On 82games they rank each team by position in terms of PER differential (for example, your total pf PER compared to the total PER for power forwards playing against you).

http://www.82games.com/1213/BYPOSL10.HTM

  Our team has the 4th best PER differential in the league at sf and pg, 19th best at c, 24th best at sg and 29th best at pf. I'd say that putting our pg and sf at the top of the list of our team's problems is pretty far removed from reality.

You're kidding me with this right? Rondo plays lazy defense ALOT. Anybody that watches the games sees that. That is a huge problem with this team.

  I get it. You think that players like Bradley and Lee, who play around 22 minutes a game and spend much of their time on offense doing nothing besides standing in a corner, put in more effort than Rondo on defense. You might be right. You also seem to think that's the main way to evaluate a player's worth to a team, and that you can ignore the fact that Rondo's contributions on offense dwarfs theirs. That's where you're wrong.


Well maybe if the offense wasn't designed around rondo dominating the ball 95percent of the time and people felt more involved then they wouldn't just stand around. I didn't IGNORE anything. I named the problems with this team. I didn't bring up rondos offensive numbers hence i don't think that's a huge problem with the team......... ::) All tho i do think rondo should score more.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on January 30, 2013, 11:47:08 AM
I agree with you that Jet and Pierce's cold shooting has been a big detriment, and I also agree with you that the lack of offensive rebounding is part of Doc's system, so yes, some blame goes to Jet and Pierce, and some goes to Doc.

Doc deserves another measure of blame, as well, for not utilizing the strengths (driving, slashing, pick and roll) of the guys Danny brought in this season. He also deserves blame for decreeing that Rondo have the ball 90% of the time.

And yes, Rondo does drive a fair amount, but he's not a mad dog about it, you know? I mean, he's fast, and has a great handle, and is also really good at getting off shots at crazy angles that are hard to block, but he doesn't go in there enough for me—and I think it directly relates to his poor free-throw shooting. So maybe he isn't "afraid" of contact, per se, but he definitely shows a hesitancy at times that probably has something to do with free-throw shooting.

Yes, our offense is usually one of the most efficient in terms of FG%, and it's usually at or near the top in assists, but it also regularly takes a low number of shots, which somewhat negates the high shooting percentage, and it also goes stagnant a lot. Why? Because if the jumpers aren't falling, there's no Plan B, no adjustments, no variety with which to kickstart our offense and at the same time throw off the defense.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 11:54:03 AM
This isn't surprising at all.  As boring as basketball is to watch when one guy dribbles the ball all the time, I mean all time in every situation, it has to be just as boring to participate in.  Doc created a monster in the mid-way point of the 2010 season when he decided that the way to get Rondo playing aggressively was by giving him every outlet pass and not letting anyone else bring up the ball.  I noticed the change immediately because it was so repetitive and so unlike how the Celtics had been playing before and how every other team plays. 

One of my frustrations with this new style of play, beyond how tedious and boring it was, was that it wasn't successful.  The Rondo Dribbling Exhibition led to low-rated offenses.  At one point, wouldn't you decide that it's not working and change up, even if just to see what happpens? I get that the counterclaim is that his teammates got old and Rondo had to take on the biggest burden of anybody else in the league but what was Rondo backstopping really?  Was he preventing the Celtics from being the 30th ranked offense in the league?  I doubt it.

  While it's true that Rondo had to take on a bigger offensive burden because his teammates got old, the counterclaim to your argument is that it's just not true that the "Rondo experiment" was unsuccessful.

  Surely you should realize by now that the biggest factor in our having a low rated offense is offensive rebounding. That's based more on team strategy and not having a strong low post threat than on anything Rondo does.

  But one of the main components of how efficiently your offense operates is how efficiently you score, which can be measured in TS%. Look at the effect Rondo's assist streak (when so many people were complaining incessantly about Rondo dominating the ball and spending the game trying to get as many assists as possible to the detriment of the offense) had on our scoring efficiency. When his assist streak started in 2011 we were 10th in the league in TS%, during the streak we were probably top 5. We were scoring about 3 more points a game from the same number of shots during the streak.

  The same effect was seen this year as the streak continued. When the streak ended we 4th in TS%, now we're 14th. I'd also say that Rondo averaging 12 assists per game in the playoffs was instrumental in our being 6th in TS% despite probably having the toughest combined defensive opponents in the playoffs.

  The other component of offensive efficiency (besides shooting efficiency and offensive rebounding) is turnovers. Suffice to say our turnover rate was lower during the streak last year, lower during the streak this year, and better than average during the playoffs.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 12:07:57 PM
This isn't surprising at all.  As boring as basketball is to watch when one guy dribbles the ball all the time, I mean all time in every situation, it has to be just as boring to participate in.  Doc created a monster in the mid-way point of the 2010 season when he decided that the way to get Rondo playing aggressively was by giving him every outlet pass and not letting anyone else bring up the ball.  I noticed the change immediately because it was so repetitive and so unlike how the Celtics had been playing before and how every other team plays. 

One of my frustrations with this new style of play, beyond how tedious and boring it was, was that it wasn't successful.  The Rondo Dribbling Exhibition led to low-rated offenses.  At one point, wouldn't you decide that it's not working and change up, even if just to see what happpens? I get that the counterclaim is that his teammates got old and Rondo had to take on the biggest burden of anybody else in the league but what was Rondo backstopping really?  Was he preventing the Celtics from being the 30th ranked offense in the league?  I doubt it.

The Celtics aren't the 30th ranked offense in the league.  They are the 21st ranked offense in the league.  Their field goal percentage and TS% are among the top of the league as is their assist rate.  The two factors killing their offense the most are lack of offensive rebounding and poor three point shooting.  Neither of those two things can be blamed on Rondo.  We have neither the personnel nor the offensive philosophy to be a good offensive rebounding team.  That's certainly not Rondo's fault.  The fact that both Terry and Pierce-- our two primary three point shooters--have been unable to make open looks from long range at anywhere near their career averages so far this season can't be pinned on Rondo, either.

You missed my point.  First off though, they are actually the 28th rated offense this year.  They were 27th last year too.  My point was, was letting Rondo dominate the ball so much saving them from being the 30th rated offense or perhaps the worst offense of all time?  Even if you were Doc and said, Yes, Rondo is the guy saving this team from scoring 60 a night, wouldn't you want to at least see what the alternative could be?  What was there to lose?  I could understand keeping with the status quo if Rondo was directing top 10 offenses but to not change ANYTHING in the face of putrid offenses, well, that made me hate Doc's coaching.

  Our scoring efficiency (TS%) is above average with Rondo running the offense and creating open shots for people. Maybe he's saving us from having a below average TS%, which wouldn't work out well for our offense. BTW, those numbers (1-30) are just rankings, not the actual number. You're acting like if you're 30th you can't go any lower. Sometimes the 30th team is .01 ppp behind the 29th ranked team, sometimes the difference is significantly greater.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 12:09:22 PM
The point is...Is better to trust the Rondos offensive talent+egoism or to trust more offensive productive work team?!

  That's not the choice, the choice is trust the Rondos offensive talent+egoism or to trust *less* offensive productive work team
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: vinnie on January 30, 2013, 12:12:09 PM
Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

  It's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to take 20+ shots a game as well. That doesn't mean that would be best for the team. Terry even acknowledges that, although he'd like to have a bigger role in the offense, that having Rondo run the offense makes the team the best it can possibly be.

  By the way, from reading the article, how did you feel about the fairly clear inference in the article that at least some of the players were going to play harder and with more energy now? People here would be killing Rondo if he ever intimated something like that, now the players who haven't been putting in the effort get a pass because it's somehow Rondo's fault.

  By the way, I loved this quote:

“Now we really have to execute our game plan,” he said before Tuesday’s workout. “A lot of times Rajon was able to call his own game, and now we’ve really got to be in tune to what Doc’s saying in timeouts.

Great post. If Rondo ever said these things he would be run out of town on a rail. It makes me happy that these guys are going to really make an effort now, but guess what, their effort won't come near producing the results that Rondo does. Too bad they didn't play hard enough before Rondo got hurt.  ???
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Galeto on January 30, 2013, 12:12:43 PM
Regardless of how the Celtics offense looks, whether it craters to the worst in the league and becomes one of the most futile ever or not, their defense should improve a lot, more than enough to make up for any decline in the offense.  In the end, that's the only math that matters.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 12:14:03 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I to agree that rondo and pierce are part of the problem but they are at the very top of the list!

Rondos inconsistent play and pierce bricking everything and mediocre defense is a HUGE problem with this team. Those are like two of your best players not bringing it every night!!

  On 82games they rank each team by position in terms of PER differential (for example, your total pf PER compared to the total PER for power forwards playing against you).

http://www.82games.com/1213/BYPOSL10.HTM

  Our team has the 4th best PER differential in the league at sf and pg, 19th best at c, 24th best at sg and 29th best at pf. I'd say that putting our pg and sf at the top of the list of our team's problems is pretty far removed from reality.

You're kidding me with this right? Rondo plays lazy defense ALOT. Anybody that watches the games sees that. That is a huge problem with this team.

  I get it. You think that players like Bradley and Lee, who play around 22 minutes a game and spend much of their time on offense doing nothing besides standing in a corner, put in more effort than Rondo on defense. You might be right. You also seem to think that's the main way to evaluate a player's worth to a team, and that you can ignore the fact that Rondo's contributions on offense dwarfs theirs. That's where you're wrong.


Well maybe if the offense wasn't designed around rondo dominating the ball 95percent of the time and people felt more involved then they wouldn't just stand around. I didn't IGNORE anything. I named the problems with this team. I didn't bring up rondos offensive numbers hence i don't think that's a huge problem with the team......... ::) All tho i do think rondo should score more.

  If you say Rondo and Pierce are the biggest problems on the team one would expect that you take their entire game into account. You also seem to think "lazy defense" is a HUGE problem but not standing around on offense. Why is that?
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 12:16:22 PM
Regardless of how the Celtics offense looks, whether it craters to the worst in the league and becomes one of the most futile ever or not, their defense should improve a lot, more than enough to make up for any decline in the offense.  In the end, that's the only math that matters.

  Yeah, I guess if all those guys increase their effort on both ends of the court and not just on offense we'll see something of an improvement on defense.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 12:21:49 PM
In 2008, when Rondo played off the ball about 100 percent more than he did the past three years, he stood in the corners more.  I re-watched the 2008 Finals and he was there a lot.  That minimized as much as possible how much Rondo's defender could roam and muck up the middle and post-ups.  Ever since Rondo became Rondo, the all-star and one of the best players in the league, his off the ball position has been on the wings or in the middle of the court.  I always thought that perhaps Rondo thought standing in the corner was a little beneath him.  Unsurprisingly, that's allowed his defender to easily choke off drives to the middle or post-ups to his side of the court.

  In 2008 Rondo used to stand near the endline when one of the big three had the ball and take that 10-12 foot baseline jumper when they passed him the ball. From what I've seen in his career he does a better job shooting the more "straight on" jumpers than the shots from the sides of the court. Could be just me though.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 12:34:37 PM
Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

  It's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to take 20+ shots a game as well. That doesn't mean that would be best for the team. Terry even acknowledges that, although he'd like to have a bigger role in the offense, that having Rondo run the offense makes the team the best it can possibly be.

  By the way, from reading the article, how did you feel about the fairly clear inference in the article that at least some of the players were going to play harder and with more energy now? People here would be killing Rondo if he ever intimated something like that, now the players who haven't been putting in the effort get a pass because it's somehow Rondo's fault.

  By the way, I loved this quote:

“Now we really have to execute our game plan,” he said before Tuesday’s workout. “A lot of times Rajon was able to call his own game, and now we’ve really got to be in tune to what Doc’s saying in timeouts.

Great post. If Rondo ever said these things he would be run out of town on a rail. It makes me happy that these guys are going to really make an effort now, but guess what, their effort won't come near producing the results that Rondo does. Too bad they didn't play hard enough before Rondo got hurt.  ???

  Not only would Rondo get bashed for saying that, but he regularly gets attacked for not "bringing it" or playing with enough energy when those players stand around and the offense stagnates.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: celtsfan84 on January 30, 2013, 12:37:42 PM
Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

  It's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to take 20+ shots a game as well. That doesn't mean that would be best for the team. Terry even acknowledges that, although he'd like to have a bigger role in the offense, that having Rondo run the offense makes the team the best it can possibly be.

  By the way, from reading the article, how did you feel about the fairly clear inference in the article that at least some of the players were going to play harder and with more energy now? People here would be killing Rondo if he ever intimated something like that, now the players who haven't been putting in the effort get a pass because it's somehow Rondo's fault.

  By the way, I loved this quote:

“Now we really have to execute our game plan,” he said before Tuesday’s workout. “A lot of times Rajon was able to call his own game, and now we’ve really got to be in tune to what Doc’s saying in timeouts.

Great post. If Rondo ever said these things he would be run out of town on a rail. It makes me happy that these guys are going to really make an effort now, but guess what, their effort won't come near producing the results that Rondo does. Too bad they didn't play hard enough before Rondo got hurt.  ???

  Not only would Rondo get bashed for saying that, but he regularly gets attacked for not "bringing it" or playing with enough energy when those players stand around and the offense stagnates.

That might be because you perpetuate the myth throughout the blog that he relaxes in the regular season and then morphs into a mythical superhero in the postseason.  Those that follow this myth must wonder why he doesn't morph into a superhero before the regular season begins and "bring it" every night.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: kgainez on January 30, 2013, 01:12:02 PM
Quote
Somebody Please tell me who Zach Lowe is??? If your going to report anything about me or go on shows talking about me INTERVIEW ME FIRST!!

From Courtney's Twitter.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: Interceptor on January 30, 2013, 01:28:27 PM
Quote
Somebody Please tell me who Zach Lowe is??? If your going to report anything about me or go on shows talking about me INTERVIEW ME FIRST!!

From Courtney's Twitter.
Can't help but notice that he didn't deny it.  :P
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: BballTim on January 30, 2013, 01:29:42 PM
Jason Terry alluded to some of the same issues, although more gently than Zach Lowe's quote about Lee:

Quote
“Don’t get me wrong,” he prefaced, “Rajon (Rondo) makes us the best we can possibly be.”

(You can just hear that BUT coming, can’t you?)

“But,” he continued, “now, having multiple ball-handlers out there, it’s just going to make us unpredictable. You don’t know who’s going to handle it. I think the wings are going to get out there and run a little harder. We should be able to play in transition a little more.”

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/blogs/courtsideview/x472365769/Celtics-practice-report-Jason-Terry-talks-candidly-about-life-after-Rajon-Rondo

I think it's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to play in a more open offensive system.

  It's fair to say that a lot of guys would like to take 20+ shots a game as well. That doesn't mean that would be best for the team. Terry even acknowledges that, although he'd like to have a bigger role in the offense, that having Rondo run the offense makes the team the best it can possibly be.

  By the way, from reading the article, how did you feel about the fairly clear inference in the article that at least some of the players were going to play harder and with more energy now? People here would be killing Rondo if he ever intimated something like that, now the players who haven't been putting in the effort get a pass because it's somehow Rondo's fault.

  By the way, I loved this quote:

“Now we really have to execute our game plan,” he said before Tuesday’s workout. “A lot of times Rajon was able to call his own game, and now we’ve really got to be in tune to what Doc’s saying in timeouts.

Great post. If Rondo ever said these things he would be run out of town on a rail. It makes me happy that these guys are going to really make an effort now, but guess what, their effort won't come near producing the results that Rondo does. Too bad they didn't play hard enough before Rondo got hurt.  ???

  Not only would Rondo get bashed for saying that, but he regularly gets attacked for not "bringing it" or playing with enough energy when those players stand around and the offense stagnates.

That might be because you perpetuate the myth throughout the blog that he relaxes in the regular season and then morphs into a mythical superhero in the postseason.  Those that follow this myth must wonder why he doesn't morph into a superhero before the regular season begins and "bring it" every night.

  No, that's not it.

  Seriously, though, have you figured out a position on this issue yet? First you dismiss claims that Rondo steps up his play in the postseason because you don't have any idea how regular season and postseason stats generally track. Now you seem to be doing a complete about face, claiming that he *does* step in order to attack him for not stepping up during the regular season. Too funny.
Title: Re: Report: Lee unhappy in Boston due to Rondo's play style
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on January 30, 2013, 04:07:00 PM
I think this team has been underachieving for a variety of reasons and Rondo's play and Pierce's play,  are two of them, though, IMHO, they are down on the bottom of the list.

One of the things on the top of the list is the players Danny put together to make up this team. Terry and Barbosa are players that want the ball in their hands and want to score, sometimes to the detriment of a team offense. Now we have Lee and Bass complaining of touches or the offense. We also have a player that left for personal reasons and a big who is useless and another that can never stay healthy.

I think Danny messed up this summer. He never got a decent backup big man worth a [dang]. Several players in the locker room were expecting to continue to play their game, regardless of how the Celtics functioned. Danny must have thought that if KG, PP and RA would sacrifice their games to make a team better than others would too. Obviously he was wrong.

I see a house cleaning in this team's future.

nah I disagree. I think Doc messed up.

Doc has been saying since forever that he wanted to run more and wanted more athleticism because the Big 3 or 4 couldn't close out games by themselves. This is when you have a team who's bench consists of Ryan Hollins, Greg Steimsa, Marquise, Dooling, Peaches, that Sean guy (lol) and Wilcox. Not a bunch of freaks of nature there.

so DA went out and got what Doc wanted. But Doc just assumed he could run and all that with the system he had but that's an untruth. Especially with the players he has.

Like I said. And I will continue to say. This team needed a shake up to get Docs attention. This could be a blessing in disguise because right now Doc is saying all the right things (doesn't mean he will do it).

Take the 2nd unit for example. Best unit we got. Why? They run. They play loose. They have pace. Copy and paste that for all...we win games. We compete. We can *gasp* contend
I think this second unit is rather awful. They have some nice career stats but as a cohesive unit, they suck.

dude you are seriously rondo'd. I don't know how you can flip the initial issue back to Lee. If the rumor is true, and i believe it is, he just being honest. He has played in the league enough years to know what he doesn't appreciate on the court. Why does he get zero touches for 4 minutes and have to bust his azz off on defense?? The guy is not a defensive specialist naturally

If rondo by himself Jordan us to the top of the standings, then nobody can say anything bad. I'd trade lee in 2 seconds if this were the case. BUT its not the case and we have been losing all year 50 percent of the time. The celts team is packed with talent , enough so that we should be a top three team in the conference.

I guess once we go on a honest and simple winning streak continuing with beat sac tomorrow, you might slightly sober up from Rondo mania.

The bolded part just made me spit up my drink.  No way are we top 3 in talent in the east.  Our two best players we have left are both over 35 years old.  We have one great big, KG, and one with a lot of potential Sully.  We have one formerly great player, who is still great sometimes PP. 

Almost the whole rest of the roster is filled out with good role players.  We have a decent roster, but especially with Rondo out now, we probably have more like 5th-8th seed talent.  Miami, Chicago, NYK, Brook, Indiana, Atlanta all have better talent that us in my opinion.  Not that it matters, we tend to get by on effort and guts and a lot of intangibles.  But to say we have top 3 talent?  Maybe in 2010 we did before Shaq got injured, but not now.

I don't get it... you say we have the talent w/o RR to be a 5th seed but that we aren't top 3 with him? What did we have the talent for, 4th seed, with RR? So with RR we are slightly better? If you think a team without RR could be a 5th seed, I don't see why it's so absurd to say we have the talent for a 3rd seed WITH RR.

I didn't say anything about our talent level WITH Rondo.  Re-read my post.  You even highlighted in your post.  My comment was with Rondo OUT we are probably 5-8th seed talent. 

With Rondo, I honestly don't know where we stand talent wise, obviously higher.  But unfortunately our record certainly doesn't seem to indicate it.  1/2 way into the season, with no major injuries (pre Rondo injury) you pretty much are what your record says.

You didn't say it, you inferred it... you said that our talent without RR was a 5th-8th seed, so if you think RR makes us better then we were probably good enough for a 3 seed. Which you pretty much said we aren't. The part that you made bold in the original person's comment said that with the talent we have (on paper) we should be a top 3 team... he was talking about with RR! I don't need to reread your post, you need to reread what you were commenting on.

I don't know what you are talking about, or why you are so upset.  I gave my opinion. 

The previous poster used the verb "is".  As in "this Celtics team IS packed with talent".  That is a PRESENT TENSE VERB!  So I assumed he meant with Rondo out.  I said with Rondo out we are a 5-8th seed talent wise.  I said I don't know where we are WITH Rondo.  YOU are the one misinterpreting.  I was extremely clear in what I posted.  If you disagree with my thoughts, oh well.


You'd be right if you didn't skip over everything he said before that bold part...