CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: OsirusCeltics on January 28, 2013, 05:04:05 PM
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I honestly do believe Celtics are better without Rondo. And can be competive and contend for a title, but only with a trade for a big man
Celtics have a better record without Rondo. Even in the playoffs, they play better without him
People say Celtics also have a winning record without KG, and try to correlate it to Celtics without Rondo.
The situation isn't similar because KG is better and more important for the Celtics, even in KG's advanced age. KG's affect on the Celtics weighs heavily more than anything Rondo can do.
KG is the backbone of the defense, post scorer, pick-and-pop guy, automatic from 17ft, pick and roll defense, etc. endless stuff he brings to the table in the playoffs
The stuff Rondo brings can be replicated by another point guard. Really I wanna know, what does he do that is so unique and special for the Celtics that another guard can't do? Most of what he does is dribble the ball for 10 seconds and pass to open players
-Doesn't drive the ball in fear of his free throw percentage
-Has horrible perimeter defense
-Shaky inconsistent jumpshot
Rondo is basically non-existent on offense except for passing. Very easy for other teams to play 5 on 4, which makes the Celtics easy to defend. So people are saying Celtics have no chance when a replacement point guard can do the same tasks as Rondo (and probably even better)? I don't get it
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The stuff Rondo brings can be replicated by another point guard. Really I wanna know, what does he do that is so unique and special for the Celtics that another guard can't do?
Who is this "another point guard", and how are we going to get him on our roster?
It should be pretty obvious that Terry, Barbosa, and Bradley don't possess the point guard skills of Rondo.
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can we merge all these threads? lol
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I honestly do believe Celtics are better without Rondo. And can be competive and contend for a title, but only with a trade for a big man
Celtics have a better record without Rondo. Even in the playoffs, they play better without him
People say Celtics also have a winning record without KG, and try to correlate it to Celtics without Rondo.
The situation isn't similar because KG is better and more important for the Celtics, even in KG's advanced age.
Too funny. "The same stats are either very telling or completely meaningless based on whether or not I agree with what they show".
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You make it sound like any team can find their own Rondo off the street.
You can't just replace a player that can do 17, 12, and 7 in the playoffs.
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The stuff Rondo brings can be replicated by another point guard. Really I wanna know, what does he do that is so unique and special for the Celtics that another guard can't do?
Who is this "another point guard", and how are we going to get him on our roster?
It should be pretty obvious that Terry, Barbosa, and Bradley don't possess the point guard skills of Rondo.
doesn't matter to me personally. PG's are essentially worthless on title winning teams in the last 30 years. In fact, PG's on both finals teams are so rarely even an all star in that season that you can ignore the losing PG as well. I mean seriously, look at the PG's that are winning titles. Even the all time great PG's, only 4 won a title as their teams first or second best player (Cousy, Robertson, Johnson, and Thomas). Sure Archibald, Kidd and Payton picked one up late in their careers, but they were long past their prime. The great PG's of today, Paul, Williams, etc. haven't even made the finals. No other position in the game has the dearth of title winners in their prime like PG's do.
In other words, your PG just doesn't matter.
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I honestly do believe Celtics are better without Rondo. And can be competive and contend for a title, but only with a trade for a big man
Celtics have a better record without Rondo. Even in the playoffs, they play better without him
People say Celtics also have a winning record without KG, and try to correlate it to Celtics without Rondo.
The situation isn't similar because KG is better and more important for the Celtics, even in KG's advanced age.
Too funny. "The same stats are either very telling or completely meaningless based on whether or not I agree with what they show".
Ok, tell me ...Cs without Rondo but with other great PG(PAUL/Billups/Westbrook/Williams) how many titiles can win during BIG3 legacy 2008-2012?
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Its Ewing theory time for the Boston Celtics. Time to find out just how valuable Rondo is to the team.
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I suppose it's all easy to say when Rondo's gone. Why didn't these threads appear when he was playing?
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I agree that we, as fans, over rate most of our players.
I'm not sure about the too high a pedestal. But I mean...
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yawn
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I honestly do believe Celtics are better without Rondo. And can be competive and contend for a title, but only with a trade for a big man
Celtics have a better record without Rondo. Even in the playoffs, they play better without him
People say Celtics also have a winning record without KG, and try to correlate it to Celtics without Rondo.
The situation isn't similar because KG is better and more important for the Celtics, even in KG's advanced age.
Too funny. "The same stats are either very telling or completely meaningless based on whether or not I agree with what they show".
Ok, tell me ...Cs without Rondo but with other great PG(PAUL/Billups/Westbrook/Williams) how many titiles can win during BIG3 legacy 2008-2012?
Aside from the fact that your question doesn't have anything to do with my post, the obvious answer is "who knows"? Probably no more than we did. But how do you determine things like health?
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I think we're a "different" team without Rondo. Whether we are better or worse remains to be seen.
Rondo lays up numbers when it matters most - in the playoffs - that is huge.
But it's possible we can be a very good team without him as well.
Other guys are going to have to do more and we'll certainly find out soon.
I love Rondo - but I also think this team could be very good with a Goran Dragic type point - or some other point with a very solid shooting game and who can put up 6-7 assists a night.
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Rondo is overrated for sure. Imagine Rondo playign in West Conference...There is no chance to see him in West All Star Team
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Oh, come on now! The C's are not better without Rondo. They are probably not a lot worse without regular season Rondo, but they will certainly miss playoffs Rondo.
Having said that, the problems the C's have today are not much different from the ones they had last week.
1. They need a scoring wing (SF/SG), preferably a deadly 3pt shooter. That's Pierce if he can shake his slump. It's Terry if he can shake his season long slump. Could that be Barbosa? Do the C's really need to pursue Reddick?
2. They need a quality Big to spell KG. Bass isn't big enough and isn't playing well enough, anyway. Sully is doing better than I thought he would, but isn't enough. The C's need a "rim-protector." Collins can't and Wilcox can't stay healthy...and probably isn't good enough anyway. Melo is way too raw. Anybody the C's could trade for would cost too much or not be any better than what we currently have. This is a need that likely can't be filled this year.
3. They need Terry, Lee and Green to play up to their averages. Playing up to their potential would be better, but just up to their career averages would be an improvement. I think Lee is over the last month, Green looks like he is coming along, but I think the Jet is still grounded. If these three could start playing well, they solve problem 1, but I think it'll take all three.
4. Consistency! Consistency! Consistency! The C's haven't had it, and they need it. Time to pass their chemistry test and start playing consistent team basketball. Play like they did yesterday and they win a lot of games even with Rondo out and even if Pierce and Terry stay in their slumps.
Here's something that I think we all noticed yesterday. The C's ran more than I recall them running in any game this season. The transition happy Heat had half as many fast-break points as the C's. Rondo could run. Rondo doesn't run. Why won't Rondo run? Yes, you have to play defense...and they did. Yes, you have to rebound...and surprisingly they did fairly well. Yes, playoff basketball is half-court basketball, but this team can run...and it needs to!
Oh, and Barbosa needs to play a lot more! :)
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Rondo is overrated for sure. Imagine Rondo playign in West Conference...There is no chance to see him in West All Star Team
Aside from Paul and Rondo I'd say it's easy to argue that the point guards in the east are better than the point guards in the west.
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I think we're a "different" team without Rondo. Whether we are better or worse remains to be seen.
very very well put.
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Here is what the captain said :
"We've just to rally around each other," Celtics forward Paul Pierce said. "I feel for him. He was having such a great season. I'm disappointed for him."
"Oh my God," Pierce told ABC's Doris Burke when she informed him of Rondo's injury after the Celtics defeated the Heat 100-98 in double overtime.
Sure sounds like Rondo will be missed, the look on KG's face said it all to me, he was devastated.
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While I do like Rondo and wish him well, I am not willing to write off the rest of the season just because he is hurt. This team is deep and talented IMHO, even though they have underachieved most of the season so far.
Like everyone else here, I wanted a championship run this season and thought we might have a shot at one. We still have enough to make a deep playoff run and I look forward to it. I believe we will be playing past the first round and maybe even a conference final.
I know if we are swept in the first round some will say I told you so, thats ok.
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Thanks kgainez -
I started another thread about how I felt the Celtics were still in a favorable position moving forward - having all options available (rebuild, stand pat, have good young players, etc) and while losing Rondo was bad, it's not the end of the world.
I mean, we're under .500 with him, 11-16 over the last 27 game.
I don't buy the sky is falling attitude. It happened and it sucks - now what?...
Our offense was point guard dominant - and it stagnated sometimes, maybe everyone takes a slightly more aggressive role now rather than waiting to be "set up" by Rondo and maybe that translates into an overall better offense - or not...
While I'd obviously rather have Rondo playing, I'm also very curious to see what kind of pressure Bradley and lee can create in tow ways:
1. On the break offensively - they both fly up and down the court.
2. Perimeter Defense: I think Bradley will play better overall D on the point guards and Lee will give us more size at the two.
* And both guys play "very hard" on the defensive end.
If the two of them can limit dribble drive our defensive numbers could be pretty good.
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Rondo is SUPREMELY overrated on this forum. At most, he's a top 5 point guard in this league. He's great at some things (passing), mediocre at other things (shooting)... and if you have the right players (guys who can create their own offense), you don't necessarily need what he brings to the table. It's not like we're losing Chris Paul here or a guy who our offense relies on. Rondo's job is to pass.. not to score. It's not the same as the Bulls losing Rose. Rose was their entire offense.
As long as you have scorers, you can withstand losing Rondo... hence why we typically win when Rondo sits... Pierce usually steps up.
Also, losing Rondo can potentially fix some of the issues with this team. More minutes to Terry and Barbosa mean we'll have offensive weapons out there. Presumably starting Bradley at PG makes up for the fact he's ridiculously undersized for a shooting guard... likewise, starting Lee and Bradley together means our two best defensive guards will make up our starting back court. If there was ever a year to lose Rondo... this was the year for it.
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Rondo is SUPREMELY overrated on this forum. At most, he's a top 5 point guard in this league. He's great at some things (passing), mediocre at other things (shooting)... and if you have the right players (guys who can create their own offense), you don't necessarily need what he brings to the table. It's not like we're losing Chris Paul here or a guy who our offense relies on. Rondo's job is to pass.. not to score. It's not the same as the Bulls losing Rose. Rose was their entire offense.
As long as you have scorers, you can withstand losing Rondo... hence why we typically win when Rondo sits... Pierce usually steps up.
I agree Pierce usually steps up for a stretch when Rondo has gone down, but I doubt that he can sustain that over the second half of the season. That's a lot to ask a 35 yr old.
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you're a known rondo detractor. the team and franchise and his play put him on this pedestal...he earned it. team will be fine until the playoffs where they have absolutely no shot
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Rondo is overrated for sure. Imagine Rondo playign in West Conference...There is no chance to see him in West All Star Team
Well, he did get more fan votes than Russell Westbrook, Tony Parker, and Steph Curry combined. Maybe he would have made it, after all, if he played out west.
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Rondo is SUPREMELY overrated on this forum. At most, he's a top 5 point guard in this league. He's great at some things (passing), mediocre at other things (shooting)... and if you have the right players (guys who can create their own offense), you don't necessarily need what he brings to the table. It's not like we're losing Chris Paul here or a guy who our offense relies on. Rondo's job is to pass.. not to score. It's not the same as the Bulls losing Rose. Rose was their entire offense.
As long as you have scorers, you can withstand losing Rondo... hence why we typically win when Rondo sits... Pierce usually steps up.
Also, losing Rondo can potentially fix some of the issues with this team. More minutes to Terry and Barbosa mean we'll have offensive weapons out there. Presumably starting Bradley at PG makes up for the fact he's ridiculously undersized for a shooting guard... likewise, starting Lee and Bradley together means our two best defensive guards will make up our starting back court. If there was ever a year to lose Rondo... this was the year for it.
meh it's a split between being under and overrated on these forums...frankly the national media speaks more highly of him then anyone around here nowadays
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
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Rondo is SUPREMELY overrated on this forum. At most, he's a top 5 point guard in this league. He's great at some things (passing), mediocre at other things (shooting)... and if you have the right players (guys who can create their own offense), you don't necessarily need what he brings to the table. It's not like we're losing Chris Paul here or a guy who our offense relies on. Rondo's job is to pass.. not to score. It's not the same as the Bulls losing Rose. Rose was their entire offense.
As long as you have scorers, you can withstand losing Rondo... hence why we typically win when Rondo sits... Pierce usually steps up.
Also, losing Rondo can potentially fix some of the issues with this team. More minutes to Terry and Barbosa mean we'll have offensive weapons out there. Presumably starting Bradley at PG makes up for the fact he's ridiculously undersized for a shooting guard... likewise, starting Lee and Bradley together means our two best defensive guards will make up our starting back court. If there was ever a year to lose Rondo... this was the year for it.
Every time I see your posts about Rondo I briefly wonder if the Lakers are still on a pace to break 70 wins this year.
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I think alot of people on this site take Rondo for granted honestly. sure maybe during the regular season he doesnt give 100% every night...but during the playoffs he plays like a superstar
theres still alot of talent on this team...other guys simply have to step up.
Bradley, barbosa, terry, Green, Lee all have to up their levels of play and try and make up for Rondo not being there.
defensively we might actually be better with a starting back-court of Bradley/Lee
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I don't think Rondo's being put up too high on a pedestal at all.
Rajon Rondo's importance to this team is probably under-rated in some circles.
I was happy to see him get his 1st All-Star start, finally.
And then THIS happens.
Count me as one that is not giving up on this season, but BOS will HAVE to play like they did on Sunday to have a shot vs MIA in a potential series.
I think we will win a fair amount of games from here on out, too.
I'm not counting them out, myself. This team's history is all about overcoming odds.
The season just got even more interesting....I just hope Danny doesn't pull the trigger on the season unless he is absolutely sure this team can't compete or it's for the best.
But make no mistake - our playoff success opportunity just got extremely small with Rondo's injury. Talk about no room for error, now.
We will miss "Triple-Double Rondo" in the playoffs - make no doubt about that....
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Rondo is SUPREMELY overrated on this forum. At most, he's a top 5 point guard in this league. He's great at some things (passing), mediocre at other things (shooting)... and if you have the right players (guys who can create their own offense), you don't necessarily need what he brings to the table. It's not like we're losing Chris Paul here or a guy who our offense relies on. Rondo's job is to pass.. not to score. It's not the same as the Bulls losing Rose. Rose was their entire offense.
As long as you have scorers, you can withstand losing Rondo... hence why we typically win when Rondo sits... Pierce usually steps up.
Also, losing Rondo can potentially fix some of the issues with this team. More minutes to Terry and Barbosa mean we'll have offensive weapons out there. Presumably starting Bradley at PG makes up for the fact he's ridiculously undersized for a shooting guard... likewise, starting Lee and Bradley together means our two best defensive guards will make up our starting back court. If there was ever a year to lose Rondo... this was the year for it.
I agree with alot of this but if we're counting on pierce to be the pierce of old then i don't like our chances at all.
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Rondo is SUPREMELY overrated on this forum. At most, he's a top 5 point guard in this league. He's great at some things (passing), mediocre at other things (shooting)... and if you have the right players (guys who can create their own offense), you don't necessarily need what he brings to the table. It's not like we're losing Chris Paul here or a guy who our offense relies on. Rondo's job is to pass.. not to score. It's not the same as the Bulls losing Rose. Rose was their entire offense.
As long as you have scorers, you can withstand losing Rondo... hence why we typically win when Rondo sits... Pierce usually steps up.
Also, losing Rondo can potentially fix some of the issues with this team. More minutes to Terry and Barbosa mean we'll have offensive weapons out there. Presumably starting Bradley at PG makes up for the fact he's ridiculously undersized for a shooting guard... likewise, starting Lee and Bradley together means our two best defensive guards will make up our starting back court. If there was ever a year to lose Rondo... this was the year for it.
Completely agree.
There are deficits to be absorbed in leadership, for one, and rebounding.
However, I'm intrigued to see what might happen - or might not happen - with this offense with the ball moving more. Having coached and played the position, it drives me nuts to see the ball stopped in certain spots on the floor.
And ask yourself this: How many times over the last few years has TV shifted to a shot of Doc in a huddle imploring "get the ball moving."
Not to mention defensively. The backcourt defense Sunday was spectacular, and let's face it: Rondo doesn't play hard often enough on the defensive end.
This team might crater, but I have a notion that it isn't going to crater.
As for overrating players in general, it's the nature of the beast. One of the big reasons I stepped away from the game is an entire generation of young people raised on the notion that basketball is an individual game.
They measure players by the quality of their dunk, a facet of the game that could not be more meaningless, when the beauty of the game is found in a pinpoint pass, a well-set screen, a physical rebound.
I reject that notion in total, and it makes me furious.
The people who think that never had the pleasure of watching the beauty of John Wooden's UCLA teams. He had individual stars every bit as bright as any playing today, and those teams were NOT unbeatable because they were loaded up with "me" types.
They were unbeatable because they played the game as a team, the way it was meant to be played.
As a result, the purest form of basketball out there today is the women's game, where team play and fundamentals are crucial to success.
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Oh, come on now! The C's are not better without Rondo. They are probably not a lot worse without regular season Rondo, but they will certainly miss playoffs Rondo.
This is how I feel. Rondo's regular season play frankly p---es me off. And that's why I think the celts will be OK without him for the regular season.
But playoff Rondo is a top 10 player in the NBA I believe. We are going to miss him terribly.
I do think Rondo's overrated. Not because of what he's capable of (see above), but because he doesn't bring it all season long. He's a top 10 player when he's at his best. But at least 30 games of the regular season he will play like he doesn't belong in the top 40. Rondo, over the course of the regular season, doesn't play much better than Brandon Jennings if any. You can bet he'd torch him in the playoffs though. That's what makes people's opinions of him so polarizing.
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rondo outplayed everyone on the court last season vs miami for at least 2 games. you don't lose someone like that and still have even hail mary prayer to win a title. this team can get to the playoffs, maybe win some games. that's all. it could be argued this is what the ceiling was anyway, but their chance at making real noise is over.
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I think without Rondo, we'll find ways to win in the regular season. But in the playoffs, much like KG in 09, we'll be looking at an early exit. Honestly, there's no other point guard in the NBA (yes, that includes the infallible Chris Paul) that I'd rather have for a playoff run. You guys can debate and rip each other to shreds over what he does in the regular season, but what he brings to the table in the playoffs can't be replaced.
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Oh, come on now! The C's are not better without Rondo. They are probably not a lot worse without regular season Rondo, but they will certainly miss playoffs Rondo.
This is how I feel. Rondo's regular season play frankly p---es me off. And that's why I think the celts will be OK without him for the regular season.
But playoff Rondo is a top 10 player in the NBA I believe. We are going to miss him terribly.
I do think Rondo's overrated. Not because of what he's capable of (see above), but because he doesn't bring it all season long. He's a top 10 player when he's at his best. But at least 30 games of the regular season he will play like he doesn't belong in the top 40. Rondo, over the course of the regular season, doesn't play much better than Brandon Jennings if any. You can bet he'd torch him in the playoffs though. That's what makes people's opinions of him so polarizing.
Yeah i sometimes forget regular season rondo and playoff rondo are two completely different people which also p--es me off. I could do without regular season rondo all season and not care much.
His defense was one of the main reasons we were losing games. Not to mention the way he dominates the ball, annoying. We won't really see how much we miss rondo until the playoffs start. That being said i agree he is overrated in a sense.
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The people who think that never had the pleasure of watching the beauty of John Wooden's UCLA teams. He had individual stars every bit as bright as any playing today, and those teams were NOT unbeatable because they were loaded up with "me" types.
They were unbeatable because they played the game as a team, the way it was meant to be played.
Well put.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
Team didn't skip a beat in kgs first few years when he missed an abundance of time...pretty sure we were undefeated for a good stretch with scalabrine started for him...pretty sure the Chicago bulls have currently done fine without Derrick rose and a more historical perspective in Michael Jordans first retirement the bulls cruised the whole regular season....happens all the time in the NBA...not sustainable in the playoffs sorry
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Zach Lowe has an interesting take on this. To quote,
"The shaky jumper means Rondo is of little use off the ball. This is one reason Boston has been unable to properly incorporate Jason Terry, shooting less often than ever and putting up the sort of usage rate we'd expect from a limited offensive player like LARRY SANDERS!"
Read more at http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8890026/with-rajon-rondo-season-boston-celtics-do-now
I think the guy defending Rondo is always free to help on our shooters because they leave Rondo open. This causes bad shot selection for other wing players. When a PG (Lee or Terry or even Barbosa) can shoot, his man has to remain honest which allows the SG or SF to only care about beating his man and not worry about Rondo's man helping on him.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
Actually no, I don't remember that. What I do remember is Rondo scoring 9 points in the final 3 minutes of game 7 against the Sixers to advance to the ECF (ending the game with 18/10/10), while Pierce was fouled out on the bench. I also recall him putting up 22 points, 10 rebounds, and 14 assists in game 7 of the ECF against the Heat and was the only Celtic able to score in the last six minutes of the game, while Chris Bosh and Lebron James continuously burned us every time down the floor. Then of course there was game 2 where he played every second of the game, putting up 44/10/8 while scoring all 12 of Boston's points in overtime. In game 6 he was the only player to keep us even remotely close to the Heat, scoring 21 points while the "Big 3" combined for just 31.
For the series he averaged 20.9pts, 11.3ast, 7rbs, .700FT%, .488FG%, and was the leading scorer for the Celtics and the 2nd best rebounder. (Then you have our "scorers" in Pierce who averaged 19ppg on .344FG% and Ray who averaged 11.9ppg on .377FG%; their opponents, Lebron and Wade, combined for 55ppg on .480FG%)
Meanwhile, Chalmers scored more than 14 points exactly once against Rondo, and that was in game 2 when he had 22 points to Rajon's 44. On the series he averaged only 12ppg, 4.6ast, 3.1rbs, .591FT% .310-3pt%, and .456FG% in 38min.
For the entire 2012 playoffs (among players with 500+ minutes) he was 7th in OWS, 3rd in DWS (behind Lebron and KG), tied for 3rd best PER and defensive rating, 5th in WS/48, 8th in total points, and was easily the best rebounding guard.
But yeah, keep on believing that Rondo's a terrible playoff performer who is easily replaceable with any average point guard in the NBA.
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Rondo is SUPREMELY overrated on this forum. At most, he's a top 5 point guard in this league. He's great at some things (passing), mediocre at other things (shooting)... and if you have the right players (guys who can create their own offense), you don't necessarily need what he brings to the table. It's not like we're losing Chris Paul here or a guy who our offense relies on. Rondo's job is to pass.. not to score. It's not the same as the Bulls losing Rose. Rose was their entire offense.
As long as you have scorers, you can withstand losing Rondo... hence why we typically win when Rondo sits... Pierce usually steps up.
Also, losing Rondo can potentially fix some of the issues with this team. More minutes to Terry and Barbosa mean we'll have offensive weapons out there. Presumably starting Bradley at PG makes up for the fact he's ridiculously undersized for a shooting guard... likewise, starting Lee and Bradley together means our two best defensive guards will make up our starting back court. If there was ever a year to lose Rondo... this was the year for it.
very well said. Have to agree with all of that.
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Overrated or not, the C's just lost their best player for the year. I actually [edit: CAN'T] believe the stuff I'm reading about how we're better off without him. How many teams get better after losing their best player? Especially on a team that was already doing poorly? Was Rondo overrated on this board? Probably. Is he better than Paul, Deron, Rose, Westbrook and arguably Kyrie? In my opinion, no - but you can't lose that kind of talent, not replace it with something comparable, and expect to tread water over a long period of time.
As a result, the purest form of basketball out there today is the women's game, where team play and fundamentals are crucial to success.
Please name me the last NBA team that won a championship in which team play and fundamentals were not crucial to its success.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
Actually no, I don't remember that. What I do remember is Rondo scoring 9 points in the final 3 minutes of game 7 against the Sixers to advance to the ECF (ending the game with 18/10/10), while Pierce was fouled out on the bench. I also recall him putting up 22 points, 10 rebounds, and 14 assists in game 7 of the ECF against the Heat and was the only Celtic able to score in the last six minutes of the game, while Chris Bosh and Lebron James continuously burned us every time down the floor. Then of course there was game 2 where he played every second of the game, putting up 44/10/8 while scoring all 12 of Boston's points in overtime. In game 6 he was the only player to keep us even remotely close to the Heat, scoring 21 points while the "Big 3" combined for just 31.
For the series he averaged 20.9pts, 11.3ast, 7rbs, .700FT%, .488FG%, and was the leading scorer for the Celtics and the 2nd best rebounder. (Then you have our "scorers" in Pierce who averaged 19ppg on .344FG% and Ray who averaged 11.9ppg on .377FG%; their opponents, Lebron and Wade, combined for 55ppg on .480FG%)
Meanwhile, Chalmers scored more than 14 points exactly once against Rondo, and that was in game 2 when he had 22 points to Rajon's 44. On the series he averaged only 12ppg, 4.6ast, 3.1rbs, .591FT% .310-3pt%, and .456FG% in 38min.
For the entire 2012 playoffs (among players with 500+ minutes) he was 7th in OWS, 3rd in DWS (behind Lebron and KG), tied for 3rd best PER and defensive rating, 5th in WS/48, 8th in total points, and was easily the best rebounding guard.
But yeah, keep on believing that Rondo's a terrible playoff performer who is easily replaceable with any average point guard in the NBA.
Finally someone who got annoyed enough to look up some actual Rondo playoff stats. Thank you! I agree 100% with this and mentioned it in two other treads as well. Good luck with having CLee, Jet, or AB taking over games, dropping triple doubles, or single-handedly keeping us in games when our other great "scorers" can't seem to produce.
I have nothing against CL, Jet, or AB. I really like all of them as players, especially CL and AB. But thinking they are going to bring the same production to the playoffs as Rondo seems seriously flawed to me.
I would love it if the C's would win it all this year and prove me wrong. I would eat everyone's crow, but you don't lose a player like Rondo and then think, ok, since he is gone we will do better.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.
But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.
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There is some truth to both sides of the argument.
Based on his talent and ability, Rondo absolutely is as good as people claim. He's a top 2 PG in the league hands down, and probably a top 10 player overall.
However based on his every day production, Rondo is massively overrated. Frankly he gets outplayed far too often by opposing PG's who have no right to be able to outplay him. There are far too many games where Rondo plays with a "minimum effort" mentality, and he often plays with a selfish arrogance that seems to hurt his teamates more than it helps.
Rondo is IMHO the best player in the league at connecting difficult passes, seeing the floor and orchestrating an offense...and yet too many times I see him force up bad shots when there is a wide open Jeff Green or Jason Terry in the corner.
Rondo used to be IMHO the best on-ball defender in the league at the PG position due to his length, his big hands and his agility...and yet far too often he gambles for steals, allowing his defensive assignment to go right by him for an easy layup.
Rondo is one of the best PGs in the league at attacking the basket - with his strength and explosive quickness he can blow by anybody pretty much at will, and he's very good at finishig around the basket...and yet he barely ever attacks.
Rondo is one of the best players in the league at leading a fast break thanks to his end-to-end speed, court vision, passing ability and ability to finish...and yet far to often he slows it down and holds the ball for long periods of time, allowing the defense to get set.
The problem with Rondo is not his game, it's his attitude. Rondo is beyond confident - he is cocky. He knows full well that he can dominate any player in the league when he wants to, but he also knows that he can play with 70% effort and still put up his numbers...so he seems to believe that putting 100% effort is wasteful in a 'regular' game when 70% effort is sufficient to get the job done.
As others here have stated, when Rondo is in "Playoff" mode or "National Televised" mode his play is a massive contributer to our success. However, when he's in "Passive" mode he has little if any positive impact on the team - you could replace him with any decent PG in the league and it wouldn't make a difference. In fact, in those situations repalcing him with any decent PG may even make us better.
The problem here is that this season he has been in "Passive" mode far more often then he is in "Playoff" mode - I'd say the ratio is probably 4:1 if I had to hazard a guess. That means roughly 75% of the time he has a nagative or neutral impact on the team. This is made all the more obvious by the fact that he's had a negative on/off net rating for most of this season. This is why we have been able to beat good teams this season without Rondo.
Another factor to consider is that we have a number of guards (Lee, Terry, Barbosa, Bradley) who are all very skilled players, but we've never really had the chance to see what they are really capapble of because Rondo has played close to 40 minutes per game, so they have mostly all been sharing the SG minutes and a couple of scrap PG minutes. Barbosa is a 'spark plug' type player who's very skilled at exploding with short notice - but Lee, Terry and Bradley are all players who would probably play better if they got more time on the court.
It's not just the minutes either, it's the roles. Rondo was always the key ball handlder for the 35-40 minutes he spends on the court, and his way is usually to hold on the ball for a long time while a play develops, then pass it off to the shooter last minute. The other guards never got a whole lot of time with the ball in their hands, so every one of those guys might get a little bit more confident and comfortable with handling the ball now that they will be doing it more often. The result is that hopefuly we will have 4 ball handlers on our team rather than one.
so yes, Rondo is an outstanding basketball player. He probably is the most TALENTED player on our team, because Pierce and KG get a lot of their success from pure hustle and hard work - for Rondo a lot of the time it seems to come easy because he's just so talented. Because of all the above reasons though, I just don't think we will be tha tmuch worse off without him...at least until we get in the playoffs, at which time I've no doubt we'll miss him.
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day 2, and the Bizarro World Celtics Blog continues. I can't wait until we get back to the real world blog.
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you're a known rondo detractor. the team and franchise and his play put him on this pedestal...he earned it. team will be fine until the playoffs where they have absolutely no shot
This. Although Rondo has been terrible in the playoffs (insert sarcasm sound). I honestly cannot take it anymore. I think I have to leave here forever because the stuff I am reading is literally hurting my head,
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
Actually no, I don't remember that. What I do remember is Rondo scoring 9 points in the final 3 minutes of game 7 against the Sixers to advance to the ECF (ending the game with 18/10/10), while Pierce was fouled out on the bench. I also recall him putting up 22 points, 10 rebounds, and 14 assists in game 7 of the ECF against the Heat and was the only Celtic able to score in the last six minutes of the game, while Chris Bosh and Lebron James continuously burned us every time down the floor. Then of course there was game 2 where he played every second of the game, putting up 44/10/8 while scoring all 12 of Boston's points in overtime. In game 6 he was the only player to keep us even remotely close to the Heat, scoring 21 points while the "Big 3" combined for just 31.
For the series he averaged 20.9pts, 11.3ast, 7rbs, .700FT%, .488FG%, and was the leading scorer for the Celtics and the 2nd best rebounder. (Then you have our "scorers" in Pierce who averaged 19ppg on .344FG% and Ray who averaged 11.9ppg on .377FG%; their opponents, Lebron and Wade, combined for 55ppg on .480FG%)
Meanwhile, Chalmers scored more than 14 points exactly once against Rondo, and that was in game 2 when he had 22 points to Rajon's 44. On the series he averaged only 12ppg, 4.6ast, 3.1rbs, .591FT% .310-3pt%, and .456FG% in 38min.
For the entire 2012 playoffs (among players with 500+ minutes) he was 7th in OWS, 3rd in DWS (behind Lebron and KG), tied for 3rd best PER and defensive rating, 5th in WS/48, 8th in total points, and was easily the best rebounding guard.
But yeah, keep on believing that Rondo's a terrible playoff performer who is easily replaceable with any average point guard in the NBA.
Great post, but why bother? The Rondo haters are never going to listen to any facts.
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you're a known rondo detractor. the team and franchise and his play put him on this pedestal...he earned it. team will be fine until the playoffs where they have absolutely no shot
This. Although Rondo has been terrible in the playoffs (insert sarcasm sound). I honestly cannot take it anymore. I think I have to leave here forever because the stuff I am reading is literally hurting my head,
Tell me when Rondo has been important the playoff?? Any stats?
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We have an ex point guard as a head coach. Its not some amazing mystery to me this coach hasn't cared about adding a genuine point guard behind him all these years and instead has marched through guys who can dribble but can shoot the ball.
Honestly I am going to really be shocked if they add a point guard. They know better, imho.
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I'll tell you what, I'll play along for just one brief moment. Maybe the team will play better without Rondo for a period of time.
The one thing I've noticed this year is that most all of the players on this team seem to defer to Rondo, even KG/Pierce to a point. They've become dependant on his exceptional play-making ability. As a result, it seems the effectiveness of these other players is entirely tied to how well Rondo plays in any particular game. On the whole, it may, at times, actually be a detriment to the individual games of the rest of the roster in some aspects.
This is absolutely NOT Rondo's fault, however. It is the fault of the coaching staff and the other players on the roster. These are highly paid professionals. It is inexcusable they rely so heavily on one player to "pick them up".
So, going forward, maybe now that the teams security blanket is gone, they'll be forced to sink or swim on thier own, and have to pick up their play. It happens in sports all the time. The "lead dog" goes down and the troops rally.
At the end of the day though, in basketball a team only can go as far as it's best player can take it. Point blank, Rondo is this teams best player. There will be no title coming to Boston this year. Which at the end of the day, is really all that matters here in Boston. Or at least that seems to be the company line.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.
But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.
From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility
His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that
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Whether or not we'll bring back Banner 18, make the Finals, make the ECF, get swept in the first round, or miss the playoffs entirely remains to be seen. Games aren't played by prediction.
But a year without Rondo is a serious bummer any way you slice it. Season-ending injuries to unique/great/good players suck.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.
But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.
From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility
His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that
Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.
But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.
From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility
His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that
Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.
2009- Game 7 2nd round against the Magic. Played horribly and cost the Celtics the game. Wasn't pushing the offense causing turnovers. His play made Ainge blast him in the media
- Couple of games in the Bulls 1st round series where Rose outplayed him
2008- Game 5 EFC against the Pistons. People questioning if Sam Cassell should start instead
2010- Game 7 NBA Finals. NIce stat line, but no where to be found. Stopped driving the ball, passed when open. Lakers played 4 on 5 and made the Celtics easier to defend
2012- Game 6 against the Sixers, looked out of the game. DIdn't drive, dribbled the ball too much till the offense got stagnant, etc.
-Game 5 against the Heat. Caused turnovers, passed the ball too many times when he was wide open, lack of shooting caused Heat to play 5 on 4, horrible defense. Missed a chance to close out the Heat at home
Not sure if there's more, but these are the ones I member off head. And all of those games were pivitol important games. He's a good player, but his "godly playoff dominance" is overblown
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you're a known rondo detractor. the team and franchise and his play put him on this pedestal...he earned it. team will be fine until the playoffs where they have absolutely no shot
This. Although Rondo has been terrible in the playoffs (insert sarcasm sound). I honestly cannot take it anymore. I think I have to leave here forever because the stuff I am reading is literally hurting my head,
holla
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I'll tell you what, I'll play along for just one brief moment. Maybe the team will play better without Rondo for a period of time.
No, always Cs play better without Rondo.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.
But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.
From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility
His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that
Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.
PG's rarely score 30 ppg, the better gauge is did the PG do better in the post season against Rondo then they did in the regular season as a whole and in that, the answer is yes quite often. Just take the 09/10 playoff run. Derek Fisher and Jameer Nelson both had better series against Rondo than their regular season averages. Mo Williams was about the same. Only Mike Bibby was appreciably worse against Rondo and he was a part-time player that year.
Rondo clearly picks it up in the playoffs, but that is mostly his scoring, not his overall play and defense. He just plays so much more aggressively offensively, which leads to a lot more big scoring and rebounding games in the playoffs, but it also leads to a lot more just downright awful shooting games. People always ignore that about every third game Rondo is atrocious in the playoffs and probably costs us the game that he won with the monster game 2 games earlier. A more consistent player but with a smaller peak, certainly might not win the games Rondo does, but probably doesn't lose the games Rondo loses either.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.
But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.
From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility
His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that
Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.
2009- Game 7 2nd round against the Magic. Played horribly and cost the Celtics the game. Wasn't pushing the offense causing turnovers. His play made Ainge blast him in the media
- Couple of games in the Bulls 1st round series where Rose outplayed him
2008- Game 5 EFC against the Pistons. People questioning if Sam Cassell should start instead
2010- Game 7 NBA Finals. NIce stat line, but no where to be found. Stopped driving the ball, passed when open. Lakers played 4 on 5 and made the Celtics easier to defend
2012- Game 6 against the Sixers, looked out of the game. DIdn't drive, dribbled the ball too much till the offense got stagnant, etc.
-Game 5 against the Heat. Caused turnovers, passed the ball too many times when he was wide open, lack of shooting caused Heat to play 5 on 4, horrible defense. Missed a chance to close out the Heat at home
Not sure if there's more, but these are the ones I member off head. And all of those games were pivitol important games. He's a good player, but his "godly playoff dominance" is overblown
Rondo didn't disappear in game 5 vs the Heat, he just missed some shots. Miami's point guards were a combined 3-11 for 9 points. You'd call that bad defense, or possibly "an average pg scoring 30 against Rondo". But even if I gave you that game 5, your claim was that Rondo has a game where he disappears for every good game he has, so you're short at least 8-10 games from last year's playoffs.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.
But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.
From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility
His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that
Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.
2009- Game 7 2nd round against the Magic. Played horribly and cost the Celtics the game. Wasn't pushing the offense causing turnovers. His play made Ainge blast him in the media
- Couple of games in the Bulls 1st round series where Rose outplayed him
2008- Game 5 EFC against the Pistons. People questioning if Sam Cassell should start instead
2010- Game 7 NBA Finals. NIce stat line, but no where to be found. Stopped driving the ball, passed when open. Lakers played 4 on 5 and made the Celtics easier to defend
2012- Game 6 against the Sixers, looked out of the game. DIdn't drive, dribbled the ball too much till the offense got stagnant, etc.
-Game 5 against the Heat. Caused turnovers, passed the ball too many times when he was wide open, lack of shooting caused Heat to play 5 on 4, horrible defense. Missed a chance to close out the Heat at home
Not sure if there's more, but these are the ones I member off head. And all of those games were pivitol important games. He's a good player, but his "godly playoff dominance" is overblown
Four "bad" playoff games in four years? Yeah, great point.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on tahe game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
Actually no, I don't remember that. What I do remember is Rondo scoring 9 points in the final 3 minutes of game 7 against the Sixers to advance to the ECF (ending the game with 18/10/10), while Pierce was fouled out on the bench. I also recall him putting up 22 points, 10 rebounds, and 14 assists in game 7 of the ECF against the Heat and was the only Celtic able to score in the last six minutes of the game, while Chris Bosh and Lebron James continuously burned us every time down the floor. Then of course there was game 2 where he played every second of the game, putting up 44/10/8 while scoring all 12 of Boston's points in overtime. In game 6 he was the only player to keep us even remotely close to the Heat, scoring 21 points while the "Big 3" combined for just 31.
For the series he averaged 20.9pts, 11.3ast, 7rbs, .700FT%, .488FG%, and was the leading scorer for the Celtics and the 2nd best rebounder. (Then you have our "scorers" in Pierce who averaged 19ppg on .344FG% and Ray who averaged 11.9ppg on .377FG%; their opponents, Lebron and Wade, combined for 55ppg on .480FG%)
Meanwhile, Chalmers scored more than 14 points exactly once against Rondo, and that was in game 2 when he had 22 points to Rajon's 44. On the series he averaged only 12ppg, 4.6ast, 3.1rbs, .591FT% .310-3pt%, and .456FG% in 38min.
For the entire 2012 playoffs (among players with 500+ minutes) he was 7th in OWS, 3rd in DWS (behind Lebron and KG), tied for 3rd best PER and defensive rating, 5th in WS/48, 8th in total points, and was easily the best rebounding guard.
But yeah, keep on believing that Rondo's a terrible playoff performer who is easily replaceable with any average point guard in the NBA.
Great post, but why bother? The Rondo haters are never going to listen to any facts.
better then great post....osirusceltics just got owned by facts....but what he has to say about rondo carries no weight...and you're right he won't listen, period.
pierce was pathetic and dreadful in the playoffs...he should be traded for Rudy gay OSirus, what do you think of that? oh wait no he's above the franchise, on a pedestal, highest paid on the team and deserving of retiring a Celtic right?
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.
But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.
From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility
His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that
Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.
2009- Game 7 2nd round against the Magic. Played horribly and cost the Celtics the game. Wasn't pushing the offense causing turnovers. His play made Ainge blast him in the media
- Couple of games in the Bulls 1st round series where Rose outplayed him
2008- Game 5 EFC against the Pistons. People questioning if Sam Cassell should start instead
2010- Game 7 NBA Finals. NIce stat line, but no where to be found. Stopped driving the ball, passed when open. Lakers played 4 on 5 and made the Celtics easier to defend
2012- Game 6 against the Sixers, looked out of the game. DIdn't drive, dribbled the ball too much till the offense got stagnant, etc.
-Game 5 against the Heat. Caused turnovers, passed the ball too many times when he was wide open, lack of shooting caused Heat to play 5 on 4, horrible defense. Missed a chance to close out the Heat at home
Not sure if there's more, but these are the ones I member off head. And all of those games were pivitol important games. He's a good player, but his "godly playoff dominance" is overblown
Four "bad" playoff games in four years? Yeah, great point.
It is more than 4. He had 4 p--- poor games last year alone (game 5 against Miami, games 2 and 6 against Philly, game 5 against Atlanta). Boston was 1-3 in those games. He also had quite a few mediocre games (game 3 against Atlanta, games 1 and 7 against Philly, game 1 against Miami). Boston was 3-1 in those games, so his play is often overlooked.
Now don't get me wrong that is pretty typical especially in the playoffs, but the way "playoff" Rondo is regarded around here really doesn't paint the full picture.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.
But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.
From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility
His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that
Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.
2009- Game 7 2nd round against the Magic. Played horribly and cost the Celtics the game. Wasn't pushing the offense causing turnovers. His play made Ainge blast him in the media
- Couple of games in the Bulls 1st round series where Rose outplayed him
2008- Game 5 EFC against the Pistons. People questioning if Sam Cassell should start instead
2010- Game 7 NBA Finals. NIce stat line, but no where to be found. Stopped driving the ball, passed when open. Lakers played 4 on 5 and made the Celtics easier to defend
2012- Game 6 against the Sixers, looked out of the game. DIdn't drive, dribbled the ball too much till the offense got stagnant, etc.
-Game 5 against the Heat. Caused turnovers, passed the ball too many times when he was wide open, lack of shooting caused Heat to play 5 on 4, horrible defense. Missed a chance to close out the Heat at home
Not sure if there's more, but these are the ones I member off head. And all of those games were pivitol important games. He's a good player, but his "godly playoff dominance" is overblown
Four "bad" playoff games in four years? Yeah, great point.
It is more than 4. He had 4 p--- poor games last year alone (game 5 against Miami, games 2 and 6 against Philly, game 5 against Atlanta). Boston was 1-3 in those games. He also had quite a few mediocre games (game 3 against Atlanta, games 1 and 7 against Philly, game 1 against Miami). Boston was 3-1 in those games, so his play is often overlooked.
Now don't get me wrong that is pretty typical especially in the playoffs, but the way "playoff" Rondo is regarded around here really doesn't paint the full picture.
The way "playoff" Rondo is regarded is fairly accurate. The way the perception is characterized might not be.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.
But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.
From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility
His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that
Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.
2009- Game 7 2nd round against the Magic. Played horribly and cost the Celtics the game. Wasn't pushing the offense causing turnovers. His play made Ainge blast him in the media
- Couple of games in the Bulls 1st round series where Rose outplayed him
2008- Game 5 EFC against the Pistons. People questioning if Sam Cassell should start instead
2010- Game 7 NBA Finals. NIce stat line, but no where to be found. Stopped driving the ball, passed when open. Lakers played 4 on 5 and made the Celtics easier to defend
2012- Game 6 against the Sixers, looked out of the game. DIdn't drive, dribbled the ball too much till the offense got stagnant, etc.
-Game 5 against the Heat. Caused turnovers, passed the ball too many times when he was wide open, lack of shooting caused Heat to play 5 on 4, horrible defense. Missed a chance to close out the Heat at home
Not sure if there's more, but these are the ones I member off head. And all of those games were pivitol important games. He's a good player, but his "godly playoff dominance" is overblown
Four "bad" playoff games in four years? Yeah, great point.
It is more than 4. He had 4 p--- poor games last year alone (game 5 against Miami, games 2 and 6 against Philly, game 5 against Atlanta). Boston was 1-3 in those games. He also had quite a few mediocre games (game 3 against Atlanta, games 1 and 7 against Philly, game 1 against Miami). Boston was 3-1 in those games, so his play is often overlooked.
Now don't get me wrong that is pretty typical especially in the playoffs, but the way "playoff" Rondo is regarded around here really doesn't paint the full picture.
This is silly. Rondo has played in 92 total playoff games so far in his career. Yes, of course, he's had some sub-par and even downright terrible ones. When I go through the box scores for the playoff games of Lebron James and Chris Paul, for example, (or any other top player who has played in a lot of playoff games) I can find you some real stinkers for them as well.
This is why when we talk about how good players are and how well they have performed, we look at the holistic picture. When you look at Rondo, if you are being objective, you have to admit that he's been an excellent playoff guy overall for his relatively short career to date.
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Here's a question that I just started thinking about...
Rondo is truly one of the most spectacular passers in the NBA (I could listen to an argument of anywhere #1-#5), so I wonder why we don't get more backdoor cuts from him. It seems that Bradley is the only beneficiary of this. I can't understand why more players like Lee and Green don't make these cuts. Even KG used to get back door lobs more frequently than he does now. What's up?
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i have said for a while now, i think rondo is overrated in boston and underrated nationally. i think his true value lies in the middle
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.
But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.
From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility
His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that
Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.
2009- Game 7 2nd round against the Magic. Played horribly and cost the Celtics the game. Wasn't pushing the offense causing turnovers. His play made Ainge blast him in the media
- Couple of games in the Bulls 1st round series where Rose outplayed him
2008- Game 5 EFC against the Pistons. People questioning if Sam Cassell should start instead
2010- Game 7 NBA Finals. NIce stat line, but no where to be found. Stopped driving the ball, passed when open. Lakers played 4 on 5 and made the Celtics easier to defend
2012- Game 6 against the Sixers, looked out of the game. DIdn't drive, dribbled the ball too much till the offense got stagnant, etc.
-Game 5 against the Heat. Caused turnovers, passed the ball too many times when he was wide open, lack of shooting caused Heat to play 5 on 4, horrible defense. Missed a chance to close out the Heat at home
Not sure if there's more, but these are the ones I member off head. And all of those games were pivitol important games. He's a good player, but his "godly playoff dominance" is overblown
Four "bad" playoff games in four years? Yeah, great point.
It is more than 4. He had 4 p--- poor games last year alone (game 5 against Miami, games 2 and 6 against Philly, game 5 against Atlanta). Boston was 1-3 in those games. He also had quite a few mediocre games (game 3 against Atlanta, games 1 and 7 against Philly, game 1 against Miami). Boston was 3-1 in those games, so his play is often overlooked.
Now don't get me wrong that is pretty typical especially in the playoffs, but the way "playoff" Rondo is regarded around here really doesn't paint the full picture.
This is silly. Rondo has played in 92 total playoff games so far in his career. Yes, of course, he's had some sub-par and even downright terrible ones. When I go through the box scores for the playoff games of Lebron James and Chris Paul, for example, (or any other top player who has played in a lot of playoff games) I can find you some real stinkers for them as well.
This is why when we talk about how good players are and how well they have performed, we look at the holistic picture. When you look at Rondo, if you are being objective, you have to admit that he's been an excellent playoff guy overall for his relatively short career to date.
I agree with this. Let's look at Rondo's stats from the 19 playoff games he played last year:
17.3 ppg / 11.9 apg / 6.7 rpg
Looks like some seriously good numbers to me. Better numbers than Chris Paul, and CP3 didn't play nearly as many games.
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This is ridiculous. You really think we are going to be fine without Rondo? I can see us making the playoffs, but there's no way we win the championship without Rondo. That's how we judge this team: can they win the chip or not?
The only thing that annoys me about Rondo is that some consider him to be this super-dooper star. The only reason Rondo can be THIS team's best player and still give us a shot to win is because he has complimentary pieces around him. Good shooters and defenders are what make Rondo's game so effective.
Rondo, until he develops a jump shot and consistency, will never be the best player on a championship team. He's best suited as a second-best player on a title team, and I think it's difficult for people on this board to recognize that.
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Rondo, until he develops a jump shot and consistency, will never be the best player on a championship team. He's best suited as a second-best player on a title team, and I think it's difficult for people on this board to recognize that.
Aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have developed a jump shot, he's already been the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the finals and game 7 of the ecf in separate seasons. It's also difficult for people on this board to recognize that they're claiming Rondo will never be able to do what he's already shown that he's capable of.
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Rondo, until he develops a jump shot and consistency, will never be the best player on a championship team. He's best suited as a second-best player on a title team, and I think it's difficult for people on this board to recognize that.
Aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have developed a jump shot, he's already been the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the finals and game 7 of the ecf in separate seasons. It's also difficult for people on this board to recognize that they're claiming Rondo will never be able to do what he's already shown that he's capable of.
He said rondo will never be the best player on a championship team. You provided examples of years the celtics didn't win it all when rondo was the best player on the team........so......you kinda just further proved his point.
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Rondo, until he develops a jump shot and consistency, will never be the best player on a championship team. He's best suited as a second-best player on a title team, and I think it's difficult for people on this board to recognize that.
Aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have developed a jump shot, he's already been the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the finals and game 7 of the ecf in separate seasons. It's also difficult for people on this board to recognize that they're claiming Rondo will never be able to do what he's already shown that he's capable of.
He said rondo will never be the best player on a championship team. You provided examples of years the celtics didn't win it all when rondo was the best player on the team........so......you kinda just further proved his point.
I think he made a valid point. While it's debateable whether Rondo was the best player on the 2009-10 team, I don't think it's fair to conclude that this team was not a championship level team. No, technically they didn't win, but they came within 10 minutes of winning and were without their starting center. Only lost by 4 points -- and Rondo singlehandedly got them to 2 points and then nearly stole the ball before C's had to foul. That's championship level. That said, he had competition for best player.
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This is ridiculous. You really think we are going to be fine without Rondo? I can see us making the playoffs, but there's no way we win the championship without Rondo. That's how we judge this team: can they win the chip or not?
You are absolutely wrong. Rondo is a great player bit is not superstar in order to lift up the team and to decide for wining a championship. Cs all these 5 years, has been a great team because of great teamwork, especially a great defence team. In 2008 Cs won the title because they have been better team in general, and not a team with single players.
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Rondo, until he develops a jump shot and consistency, will never be the best player on a championship team. He's best suited as a second-best player on a title team, and I think it's difficult for people on this board to recognize that.
Aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have developed a jump shot, he's already been the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the finals and game 7 of the ecf in separate seasons. It's also difficult for people on this board to recognize that they're claiming Rondo will never be able to do what he's already shown that he's capable of.
He said rondo will never be the best player on a championship team. You provided examples of years the celtics didn't win it all when rondo was the best player on the team........so......you kinda just further proved his point.
I think he made a valid point. While it's debateable whether Rondo was the best player on the 2009-10 team, I don't think it's fair to conclude that this team was not a championship level team. No, technically they didn't win, but they came within 10 minutes of winning and were without their starting center. Only lost by 4 points -- and Rondo singlehandedly got them to 2 points and then nearly stole the ball before C's had to foul. That's championship level. That said, he had competition for best player.
No, i think its unfair to say a team that didn't win a championship is a championship team. Idc how close you get. If you don't get it done then you don't get it done.
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This is ridiculous. You really think we are going to be fine without Rondo? I can see us making the playoffs, but there's no way we win the championship without Rondo. That's how we judge this team: can they win the chip or not?
You are absolutely wrong. Rondo is a great player bit is not superstar in order to lift up the team and to decide for wining a championship. Cs all these 5 years, has been a great team because of great teamwork, especially a great defence team. In 2008 Cs won the title because they have been better team in general, and not a team with single players.
You oughtta read the rest of my post, pal. I said the reason Rondo can be the best player on this team is because the pieces around him complement the way he plays. I know the only way we win is if we play like a team, thanks for stating the obvious.
I also said Rondo is not a superstar, so that's two things you missed by not reading my post.
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Rondo, until he develops a jump shot and consistency, will never be the best player on a championship team. He's best suited as a second-best player on a title team, and I think it's difficult for people on this board to recognize that.
Aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have developed a jump shot, he's already been the best player on a team that went to game 7 of the finals and game 7 of the ecf in separate seasons. It's also difficult for people on this board to recognize that they're claiming Rondo will never be able to do what he's already shown that he's capable of.
By jump shot, I mean a consistent, you-can't-leave-me-open-anymore shot, and then you might as well add in range out to the three point line. I know this is a lot to ask, but do you know how much easier it would be if Rondo had range? Man, I wish Rondo could get that. Then, he'd be near unstoppable.
I'd argue that the '10 run was a total team effort. Everyone had their moments, whether it was the Big Three, Shrek and Donkey, even Sheed. I'll admit those playoffs proved to me Rondo was "the real deal."
Last year, I give 50% of the credit to KG, and 50% to Rondo. We needed both to play at unbelievable levels, and without that we'd have never made it out of the first round, people forget that monstrous Game 6 vs. Atlanta. KG was Minnesota KG.
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Rondo put up some incredible stats last season during the playoffs, but he definitely wasn't going up against the leagues' top point guards ... an and the fact he was playing 43 minutes per game definitely inflated his stats a bit . Cut that to 36 minutes and those stats drop closer to regular season rondo.
The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Let's just say this has the potential to be very interesting. We have guys who can generate offense. We could go out and get a post up player or allow kg to pound down low more often... We don't need to start Bass. We don't need to make up for the fact our point guard is a semi liability off the ball...
That combined with the fact it clears up our guard clog (no more dnps for Barbosa), moves the 6'2 180 pound Bradley to PG, ensures our two best defensive guards are starting and moves terry to the 6th man role he belongs in... It could be very interesting
I can't think of a team who has ever won a title due to having a super good passer. At least with Nash it was more plausible, because off the ball he doubled as arguably the best shooter in the world
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Rondo put up some incredible stats last season during the playoffs, but he definitely wasn't going up against the leagues' top point guards ... an and the fact he was playing 43 minutes per game definitely inflated his stats a bit . Cut that to 36 minutes and those stats drop closer to regular season rondo.
The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Let's just say this has the potential to be very interesting. We have guys who can generate offense. We could go out and get a post up player or allow kg to pound down low more often... We don't need to start Bass. We don't need to make up for the fact our point guard is a semi liability off the ball...
That combined with the fact it clears up our guard clog (no more dnps for Barbosa), moves the 6'2 180 pound Bradley to PG, ensures our two best defensive guards are starting and moves terry to the 6th man role he belongs in... It could be very interesting
I can't think of a team who has ever won a title due to having a super good passer. At least with Nash it was more plausible, because off the ball he doubled as arguably the best shooter in the world
Rondo looked pretty good when we had Shaq
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Rondo put up some incredible stats last season during the playoffs, but he definitely wasn't going up against the leagues' top point guards ... an and the fact he was playing 43 minutes per game definitely inflated his stats a bit . Cut that to 36 minutes and those stats drop closer to regular season rondo.
The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Let's just say this has the potential to be very interesting. We have guys who can generate offense. We could go out and get a post up player or allow kg to pound down low more often... We don't need to start Bass. We don't need to make up for the fact our point guard is a semi liability off the ball...
That combined with the fact it clears up our guard clog (no more dnps for Barbosa), moves the 6'2 180 pound Bradley to PG, ensures our two best defensive guards are starting and moves terry to the 6th man role he belongs in... It could be very interesting
I can't think of a team who has ever won a title due to having a super good passer. At least with Nash it was more plausible, because off the ball he doubled as arguably the best shooter in the world
Rondo looked pretty good when we had Shaq
This. TP.
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The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I'd hope Ray would have enough tact to not be "giddy" over a season ending injury to a past teammate.
It sure seems like that's the mentality around here though.
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The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I'd hope Ray would have enough tact to not be "giddy" over a season ending injury to a past teammate.
It sure seems like that's the mentality around here though.
Well said.
I cannot seem to fathom why some would be happy we just lost our most talented player. It's disturbing.
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I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Agree with you. The problems the team are offensively and defensively. Offensive manover of Rondo is slow, and predictable sometimes. Very static position of players like PP/KG or Ray (till last year). The only smart moves that Rondo make in are unpredictable smart penetrations that he does well. But if you take care of offensive philosophy of Rondo, of coarse there is not any. At this pint, I don't understand how Doc does not change anything, because in this season this problem is more than evident. If you compare Ray playing for Heat you will see that Heat do not use great PG, who can't play more with the ball like Rondo does. So HEAT use more movement of Lebron, Wade or other shooting guys, and let the PG to play less and less with the ball, and delivery the ball the Lebron, Wade, etc. This HEAT strategy killed the OKC in final games. Defensilvy Rondo is a poor defender...
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I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Agree with you. The problems the team are offensively and defensively. Offensive manover of Rondo is slow, and predictable sometimes. Very static position of players like PP/KG or Ray (till last year). The only smart moves that Rondo make in are unpredictable smart penetrations that he does well. But if you take care of offensive philosophy of Rondo, of coarse there is not any. At this pint, I don't understand how Doc does not change anything, because in this season this problem is more than evident. If you compare Ray playing for Heat you will see that Heat do not use great PG, who can't play more with the ball like Rondo does. So HEAT use more movement of Lebron, Wade or other shooting guys, and let the PG to play less and less with the ball, and delivery the ball the Lebron, Wade, etc. This HEAT strategy killed the OKC in final games. Defensilvy Rondo is a poor defender...
Aside from the fact that the post you quoted was clearly wrong, the Heat don't rely on ball movement, they rely on dribble penetration from LeBron. You've picked the most ball dominant player in the league as an example of a ball movement based offense.
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I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Agree with you. The problems the team are offensively and defensively. Offensive manover of Rondo is slow, and predictable sometimes. Very static position of players like PP/KG or Ray (till last year). The only smart moves that Rondo make in are unpredictable smart penetrations that he does well. But if you take care of offensive philosophy of Rondo, of coarse there is not any. At this pint, I don't understand how Doc does not change anything, because in this season this problem is more than evident. If you compare Ray playing for Heat you will see that Heat do not use great PG, who can't play more with the ball like Rondo does. So HEAT use more movement of Lebron, Wade or other shooting guys, and let the PG to play less and less with the ball, and delivery the ball the Lebron, Wade, etc. This HEAT strategy killed the OKC in final games. Defensilvy Rondo is a poor defender...
What is 'offensive manover'? not being a jerk, I just don't know what you are trying to say 3/4 the time.
Last I checked Rondo isn't the one who makes KG and PP static, that would be whatever offensive scheme we are running at the time. Our other players seem to wait around for Rondo to make a play sometimes. I wish that we could move without the ball more, and that includes everyone.
Moving without the ball gets open looks and allows for better ball movement. This is a big problem with our team, but it isn't only on Rondo, it is the whole team.
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I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Agree with you. The problems the team are offensively and defensively. Offensive manover of Rondo is slow, and predictable sometimes. Very static position of players like PP/KG or Ray (till last year). The only smart moves that Rondo make in are unpredictable smart penetrations that he does well. But if you take care of offensive philosophy of Rondo, of coarse there is not any. At this pint, I don't understand how Doc does not change anything, because in this season this problem is more than evident. If you compare Ray playing for Heat you will see that Heat do not use great PG, who can't play more with the ball like Rondo does. So HEAT use more movement of Lebron, Wade or other shooting guys, and let the PG to play less and less with the ball, and delivery the ball the Lebron, Wade, etc. This HEAT strategy killed the OKC in final games. Defensilvy Rondo is a poor defender...
Aside from the fact that the post you quoted was clearly wrong, the Heat don't rely on ball movement, they rely on dribble penetration from LeBron. You've picked the most ball dominant player in the league as an example of a ball movement based offense.
The Heat do have great ball movement. They just do it differently then us. Like you said, LeBron penetrates, and then he kicks it out, and the perimeter players swing it to the open man.
Don't forget that LeBron may be the best passing non-guard ever.
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I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Agree with you. The problems the team are offensively and defensively. Offensive manover of Rondo is slow, and predictable sometimes. Very static position of players like PP/KG or Ray (till last year). The only smart moves that Rondo make in are unpredictable smart penetrations that he does well. But if you take care of offensive philosophy of Rondo, of coarse there is not any. At this pint, I don't understand how Doc does not change anything, because in this season this problem is more than evident. If you compare Ray playing for Heat you will see that Heat do not use great PG, who can't play more with the ball like Rondo does. So HEAT use more movement of Lebron, Wade or other shooting guys, and let the PG to play less and less with the ball, and delivery the ball the Lebron, Wade, etc. This HEAT strategy killed the OKC in final games. Defensilvy Rondo is a poor defender...
Aside from the fact that the post you quoted was clearly wrong, the Heat don't rely on ball movement, they rely on dribble penetration from LeBron. You've picked the most ball dominant player in the league as an example of a ball movement based offense.
The Heat do have great ball movement. They just do it differently then us. Like you said, LeBron penetrates, and then he kicks it out, and the perimeter players swing it to the open man.
Don't forget that LeBron may be the best passing non-guard ever.
I always feel a little bad for the fans that aren't old enough to have seen Bird play.
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I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Agree with you. The problems the team are offensively and defensively. Offensive manover of Rondo is slow, and predictable sometimes. Very static position of players like PP/KG or Ray (till last year). The only smart moves that Rondo make in are unpredictable smart penetrations that he does well. But if you take care of offensive philosophy of Rondo, of coarse there is not any. At this pint, I don't understand how Doc does not change anything, because in this season this problem is more than evident. If you compare Ray playing for Heat you will see that Heat do not use great PG, who can't play more with the ball like Rondo does. So HEAT use more movement of Lebron, Wade or other shooting guys, and let the PG to play less and less with the ball, and delivery the ball the Lebron, Wade, etc. This HEAT strategy killed the OKC in final games. Defensilvy Rondo is a poor defender...
What is 'offensive manover'? not being a jerk, I just don't know what you are trying to say 3/4 the time.
Last I checked Rondo isn't the one who makes KG and PP static, that would be whatever offensive scheme we are running at the time. Our other players seem to wait around for Rondo to make a play sometimes. I wish that we could move without the ball more, and that includes everyone.
Moving without the ball gets open looks and allows for better ball movement. This is a big problem with our team, but it isn't only on Rondo, it is the whole team.
The bolded part is extremely important. It's partly why Bradley fits so well with Rondo. The rest of the guys just stand around waiting. It's bizarre. That is either the coach's fault, or the players themselves.
Maybe if the rest of the players moved around a bit, our offense would flow better. Must be Rondo's fault though, because I'm sure he tells them to just stnad there like a bunch of mooks.
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I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Agree with you. The problems the team are offensively and defensively. Offensive manover of Rondo is slow, and predictable sometimes. Very static position of players like PP/KG or Ray (till last year). The only smart moves that Rondo make in are unpredictable smart penetrations that he does well. But if you take care of offensive philosophy of Rondo, of coarse there is not any. At this pint, I don't understand how Doc does not change anything, because in this season this problem is more than evident. If you compare Ray playing for Heat you will see that Heat do not use great PG, who can't play more with the ball like Rondo does. So HEAT use more movement of Lebron, Wade or other shooting guys, and let the PG to play less and less with the ball, and delivery the ball the Lebron, Wade, etc. This HEAT strategy killed the OKC in final games. Defensilvy Rondo is a poor defender...
Aside from the fact that the post you quoted was clearly wrong, the Heat don't rely on ball movement, they rely on dribble penetration from LeBron. You've picked the most ball dominant player in the league as an example of a ball movement based offense.
The Heat do have great ball movement. They just do it differently then us. Like you said, LeBron penetrates, and then he kicks it out, and the perimeter players swing it to the open man.
Don't forget that LeBron may be the best passing non-guard ever.
I always feel a little bad for the fans that aren't old enough to have seen Bird play.
I didn't say LeBron is, I said he might me.
He's got to be in your top five, though?
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I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Agree with you. The problems the team are offensively and defensively. Offensive manover of Rondo is slow, and predictable sometimes. Very static position of players like PP/KG or Ray (till last year). The only smart moves that Rondo make in are unpredictable smart penetrations that he does well. But if you take care of offensive philosophy of Rondo, of coarse there is not any. At this pint, I don't understand how Doc does not change anything, because in this season this problem is more than evident. If you compare Ray playing for Heat you will see that Heat do not use great PG, who can't play more with the ball like Rondo does. So HEAT use more movement of Lebron, Wade or other shooting guys, and let the PG to play less and less with the ball, and delivery the ball the Lebron, Wade, etc. This HEAT strategy killed the OKC in final games. Defensilvy Rondo is a poor defender...
Aside from the fact that the post you quoted was clearly wrong, the Heat don't rely on ball movement, they rely on dribble penetration from LeBron. You've picked the most ball dominant player in the league as an example of a ball movement based offense.
The Heat do have great ball movement. They just do it differently then us. Like you said, LeBron penetrates, and then he kicks it out, and the perimeter players swing it to the open man.
Don't forget that LeBron may be the best passing non-guard ever.
I always feel a little bad for the fans that aren't old enough to have seen Bird play.
I didn't say LeBron is, I said he might me.
He's got to be in your top five, though
I don't have a list per se, but yes he'd be in my top 5.
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I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Agree with you. The problems the team are offensively and defensively. Offensive manover of Rondo is slow, and predictable sometimes. Very static position of players like PP/KG or Ray (till last year). The only smart moves that Rondo make in are unpredictable smart penetrations that he does well. But if you take care of offensive philosophy of Rondo, of coarse there is not any. At this pint, I don't understand how Doc does not change anything, because in this season this problem is more than evident. If you compare Ray playing for Heat you will see that Heat do not use great PG, who can't play more with the ball like Rondo does. So HEAT use more movement of Lebron, Wade or other shooting guys, and let the PG to play less and less with the ball, and delivery the ball the Lebron, Wade, etc. This HEAT strategy killed the OKC in final games. Defensilvy Rondo is a poor defender...
Aside from the fact that the post you quoted was clearly wrong, the Heat don't rely on ball movement, they rely on dribble penetration from LeBron. You've picked the most ball dominant player in the league as an example of a ball movement based offense.
The Heat do have great ball movement. They just do it differently then us. Like you said, LeBron penetrates, and then he kicks it out, and the perimeter players swing it to the open man.
Don't forget that LeBron may be the best passing non-guard ever.
I always feel a little bad for the fans that aren't old enough to have seen Bird play.
I didn't say LeBron is, I said he might me.
He's got to be in your top five, though
I don't have a list per se, but yes he'd be in my top 5.
It's debatable,
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I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Agree with you. The problems the team are offensively and defensively. Offensive manover of Rondo is slow, and predictable sometimes. Very static position of players like PP/KG or Ray (till last year). The only smart moves that Rondo make in are unpredictable smart penetrations that he does well. But if you take care of offensive philosophy of Rondo, of coarse there is not any. At this pint, I don't understand how Doc does not change anything, because in this season this problem is more than evident. If you compare Ray playing for Heat you will see that Heat do not use great PG, who can't play more with the ball like Rondo does. So HEAT use more movement of Lebron, Wade or other shooting guys, and let the PG to play less and less with the ball, and delivery the ball the Lebron, Wade, etc. This HEAT strategy killed the OKC in final games. Defensilvy Rondo is a poor defender...
Aside from the fact that the post you quoted was clearly wrong, the Heat don't rely on ball movement, they rely on dribble penetration from LeBron. You've picked the most ball dominant player in the league as an example of a ball movement based offense.
The Heat do have great ball movement. They just do it differently then us. Like you said, LeBron penetrates, and then he kicks it out, and the perimeter players swing it to the open man.
Don't forget that LeBron may be the best passing non-guard ever.
I always feel a little bad for the fans that aren't old enough to have seen Bird play.
I didn't say LeBron is, I said he might me.
He's got to be in your top five, though
I don't have a list per se, but yes he'd be in my top 5.
It's debatable,
Obviously, in fact the definition of "best passer" is probably debatable as well.
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The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I'd hope Ray would have enough tact to not be "giddy" over a season ending injury to a past teammate.
It sure seems like that's the mentality around here though.
Well said.
I cannot seem to fathom why some would be happy we just lost our most talented player. It's disturbing.
I'm finding it very disturbing.
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Rondo put up some incredible stats last season during the playoffs, but he definitely wasn't going up against the leagues' top point guards ... an and the fact he was playing 43 minutes per game definitely inflated his stats a bit . Cut that to 36 minutes and those stats drop closer to regular season rondo.
Rondo wasn't going up against the league's best point guards, he was going up against the league's best *defenses*, and that makes his play all the more impressive. Also, while you like to try and dismiss Rondo's play by claiming that his per36 minute stats drop to closer to his regular season stats, check out some of the other top performers in the league. Most of them will score the same or less per36 in the playoffs than they do during the season, almost all of them who score more per36 in the playoffs have less of an increase than Rondo.
The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
Hard to see anything completely vindicating Ray. It's more likely that the rest of the season will vindicate Rondo, who wanted Bradley to start over Ray.
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The hate for Rondo from some quarters on this blog goes beyond disgusting and reaches distasteful. It is almost as if some are taking great glee in the fact that the guy tore his ACL. :-[
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The hate for Rondo from some quarters on this blog goes beyond disgusting and reaches distasteful. It is almost as if some are taking great glee in the fact that the guy tore his ACL. :-[
I hear you vinnie. I'm having a hard time understanding it, too. Here's a TP to make you feel better. :)
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The hate for Rondo from some quarters on this blog goes beyond disgusting and reaches distasteful. It is almost as if some are taking great glee in the fact that the guy tore his ACL. :-[
I hear you vinnie. I'm having a hard time understanding it, too. Here's a TP to make you feel better. :)
I will give you both one. I agree too. I wish we all could support our whole team.
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The hate for Rondo from some quarters on this blog goes beyond disgusting and reaches distasteful. It is almost as if some are taking great glee in the fact that the guy tore his ACL. :-[
I hear you vinnie. I'm having a hard time understanding it, too. Here's a TP to make you feel better. :)
I will give you both one. I agree too. I wish we all could support our whole team.
Right back at ya, buddy! TP!
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It'll be interesting to see how the offense changes and the efficiency of it. For those who want to keep track, as of today the team has a Off Rating of 101.7 (28th) and Def Rating of 103.2 (7th) (basketball-reference.com). It'll give us an answer...of which there'll be hundreds of interpretations, hah! Well, as long as no major trades happen either, haha.
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And who would these Rondo bashers have?
Rondo has been great for the Celtics. Some of the stuff he, KG and PP have already done are legendary: 1. playing with a broken arm; 2. wheelchair game; 3. carrying the team on their backs;
I must admit some of rondo's games may have in the bizarre at times, but look rondo is what he is. His personality makes him unique.
Maybe if these Rondo bashers get what they want they will swear that they would rather have had Rondo on this team when the guy is traded.
Be careful what you wish for because you might just get it.
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Whether Celtics are different or better without Rondo, the point is this team does not skip a beat when he is out
We have all seen Pierce looking old this season. If he just plays the point guard position the whole game, he'll have an advantage over anyone that guards him. Pierce whos not even a point guard can rack up triple doubles just like Rondo, So Rondo's stat line must not be that unique or impressive. Not saying Rondo sucks, but it does say something
It means this team is talented and has offensive weapons, which any point guard can take advantage of to be effective. Especially if a replacement point guard can score as well as facilitate offense, how would we be worse off without Rondo for the playoffs? And for all of the Rondo classic playoff moments, there is at least the same number of playoff games where he's no where to be found with no impact on the game, a turnover machine, or letting an average point guard score 30 on him. (Game 5 2012 EFC against the Heat surely rings a bell with him coming up small in the post-season). And many other examples where he played horribly
I don't remember a ton about game 5 vs the Heat. From the box score it looks like Rondo had a weak shooting game. It also looks like he played all but 4 minutes of that game and the Celts were a -7 in those 4 minutes.
But Rondo's played 92 playoff games in his career, let me know how many you can find where someone scored 30 on Rondo.
From Louis Williams to Jameer Nelson to Billups to Mo Williams. Too many scored or neared 30 on Rondo
Everyone has their bad playoff games, so I wont blame that on Rondo. But for all the accolades fans want to praise on Rondo's playoff moments, he has just as many horrible playoff games that cost the Celtics a chance to win. And if he is the leader of the team, he should be the leader in taking responsibility
His playoff games when he dominated are almost equal to playoff games when he was non-existent and had no impact on the game. I'm sure Celtics can find a guard (Or maybe already on the team) that can be more consistent than that
Okay, so we now have a list of players who never scored 30 against Rondo in the playoffs (well, them and the rest of the point guards in the nba). Rondo doesn't have tons of playoff games where he disappears, maybe you're remembering them the way you're remembering all the games where he gave up 30 points to average point guards.
2009- Game 7 2nd round against the Magic. Played horribly and cost the Celtics the game. Wasn't pushing the offense causing turnovers. His play made Ainge blast him in the media
- Couple of games in the Bulls 1st round series where Rose outplayed him
2008- Game 5 EFC against the Pistons. People questioning if Sam Cassell should start instead
2010- Game 7 NBA Finals. NIce stat line, but no where to be found. Stopped driving the ball, passed when open. Lakers played 4 on 5 and made the Celtics easier to defend
2012- Game 6 against the Sixers, looked out of the game. DIdn't drive, dribbled the ball too much till the offense got stagnant, etc.
-Game 5 against the Heat. Caused turnovers, passed the ball too many times when he was wide open, lack of shooting caused Heat to play 5 on 4, horrible defense. Missed a chance to close out the Heat at home
Not sure if there's more, but these are the ones I member off head. And all of those games were pivitol important games. He's a good player, but his "godly playoff dominance" is overblown
Four "bad" playoff games in four years? Yeah, great point.
Four GLARINGLY BAD playoff games that came to mind. He obviously has many more. The important ones that either cost the Celtics the series, or got a team back in the series
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The hate for Rondo from some quarters on this blog goes beyond disgusting and reaches distasteful. It is almost as if some are taking great glee in the fact that the guy tore his ACL. :-[
I hear you vinnie. I'm having a hard time understanding it, too. Here's a TP to make you feel better. :)
I will give you both one. I agree too. I wish we all could support our whole team.
Right back at ya, buddy! TP!
Jesus, get a room. ;)
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The hate for Rondo from some quarters on this blog goes beyond disgusting and reaches distasteful. It is almost as if some are taking great glee in the fact that the guy tore his ACL. :-[
I have been accused of being a Rondo hater based on previous comments I have made that amount to saying things like "I don't think Rondo is MVP caliber", "I think Chris Paul is better" and "I don't think Rondo is a good shooter for a point gaurd". These seem pretty obvious to me.
The thing (not the only thing) that prevents a really good player from becoming a great player is having a weakness. Rondo has one, he can't shoot so the other team plays off him, giving him room to dribble too much and at times, try to accumulate too many assists (to his credit, I think he got over the assist issue). His man sagging off makes it harder for Pierce and others to get shoots because the double team comes so quick.
It is also obvioius that team flow is different without Rondo. There is more passing and more people getting assists and overall team assists are the same or better. It is hard to imagine that Net-Net we are better without Rondo but I don't think it is that hard to see that we aren't that much worse with Bradley (who can't dribble with his left hand but plays great D and can shoot), Terry (who is not nearly the athlete that Rondo is but is a dangerous scorer) and Lee (who is no PG but holds his own) getting Rondo's minutes. I guess Barbosa gets more minutes too which is a big drop off but he is only getting a few of Rondo's minutes.
So does this make me a hater?
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Here, if you try to look at Rondo's game in any context that falls short of outright hero worship, you get branded a hater.
I thought there were board rules against that, but I guess not.
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The team knows they won't make the playoffs if they don't play with intensity every night now..that's on them for not playing that way when rondo was healthy, but they knew it could be turned on and he would carry them in the playoffs..now there pride is on the line and they're playing like it...it is so completely fraudulent to think they're better without their best player...certain players might not have fit with him..but Avery and kg fit like a glove with rondo and this pp and Lee ball handling crap will only work so long.
Nevertheless the op thinks carmelo is better than LeBron.. and the people flaming rondo like coachbo have been doing so all along and can't ever admit they were wrong and love this opportunity to somehow prove themselves
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Rondo put up some incredible stats last season during the playoffs, but he definitely wasn't going up against the leagues' top point guards ... an and the fact he was playing 43 minutes per game definitely inflated his stats a bit . Cut that to 36 minutes and those stats drop closer to regular season rondo.
Rondo wasn't going up against the league's best point guards, he was going up against the league's best *defenses*, and that makes his play all the more impressive. Also, while you like to try and dismiss Rondo's play by claiming that his per36 minute stats drop to closer to his regular season stats, check out some of the other top performers in the league. Most of them will score the same or less per36 in the playoffs than they do during the season, almost all of them who score more per36 in the playoffs have less of an increase than Rondo.
The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
Hard to see anything completely vindicating Ray. It's more likely that the rest of the season will vindicate Rondo, who wanted Bradley to start over Ray.
Rondo was guarded and has been in the playoffs by the opposing teams best perimeter player...not there point guard.
Ray sounded asinine...he never played with a better point guard and it reflected on his shooting percentages...rondo and Ray were good together, period...unfortunately other things got in the way
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The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I'd hope Ray would have enough tact to not be "giddy" over a season ending injury to a past teammate.
It sure seems like that's the mentality around here though.
Well said.
I cannot seem to fathom why some would be happy we just lost our most talented player. It's disturbing.
I still think our two most talented players are Pierce and KG. Hence why the rest of this season will be so fascinating. I'm not happy we lost Rondo. I love Rondo. Plus, Rondo actually had a bit of trade value before the injury and now we're likely going to be stuck in mediocrity for years.
I do think Rondo is supremely overrated on this forum, though. And I do think Ray bailed on this team at least in part, because he didn't feel Rondo's skill set warranted his growing role. There's a lot of smoke surrounding this concept that the team doesn't necessarily enjoy the Rondo-centric offense... so I'm fascinated to see how they react without him. That's not to say I'd prefer this scenario to one with a healthy Rondo on board.
One of my biggest complaints about this season is that the roster was completely dysfunctional. I had preferred a pipedream scenario where we used a collection of some undersized SG's, underwhelming PF's, and draft picks to land a big man who could fix the roster logic. But in a way, Rondo's injury solves many of the issues this Roster had. There's no longer 4 undersized shooting guards splitting 50 minutes. Rondo's injury pushes the PG-sized Bradley to PG... it pushes our biggest guard, Lee, into a permanent starting role. It ensures that Terry remains as a 6th man where he belongs. And it makes it so that one of our most talented players, Barbosa, doesn't unfairly get stuck with random DNP's due to guard-clog (these guys now have an additional 43 minutes of playing time that they can all gobble up). It frees up our 4th best player, Jeff Green, to actually use his talents instead of trying to conform into something he's not. It will give us the option of actually trying to post-up once in a while without the concern of taking the ball out of Rondo's hands, clogging up the middle for a Rondo drive... or watching as Rondo's defenders slack off him and double the dude trying to post up. What that means is... Rondo's injury will go a long way to defining roles. This team might actually stand a chance of maximizing their talents. Our best two defensive guards will be starting with very little chance of them getting stuck with awkward size mismatches (like Bradley being stuck guarding Joe JOhnson or something). All of these things weren't possible when your 3rd best player happens to be an all-star whose best attribute is "passing" and worst attribute is "shooting". We loaded up on scorers (not shooters) in the offseason... now we get to actually USE those scorers as they should be used.
Would I prefer trading all the underperformers for something like Josh Smith, Marcin Gortat, Demarcus Cousins, Pau Gasol, etc... and rolling through the rest of the season with a Rondo-lead offense now featuring a influx of legit starting big man talent?.... Absolutely. But this might be interesting too.
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Rondo put up some incredible stats last season during the playoffs, but he definitely wasn't going up against the leagues' top point guards ... an and the fact he was playing 43 minutes per game definitely inflated his stats a bit . Cut that to 36 minutes and those stats drop closer to regular season rondo.
The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I've argued for a while that Boston's offense was built around rondos' weaknesses. The guy couldn't shoot so defenders slacked off him... Thus we needed guys like bass and kg to linger around the mid range so they could open up the paint for rondo drives. If you didn't have jump shooting big men, rondo wouldn't be able to drive, because those jump shooting big men wouldn't be pulling defenders out of the paint. Also, just in general yoU needed to surround rondo with shooters.
Let's just say this has the potential to be very interesting. We have guys who can generate offense. We could go out and get a post up player or allow kg to pound down low more often... We don't need to start Bass. We don't need to make up for the fact our point guard is a semi liability off the ball...
That combined with the fact it clears up our guard clog (no more dnps for Barbosa), moves the 6'2 180 pound Bradley to PG, ensures our two best defensive guards are starting and moves terry to the 6th man role he belongs in... It could be very interesting
I can't think of a team who has ever won a title due to having a super good passer. At least with Nash it was more plausible, because off the ball he doubled as arguably the best shooter in the world
Rondo looked pretty good when we had Shaq
I think that's different. I think the problem with posting up players in a Rondo-lead offense is that it's pretty well known Rondo is useless off the ball. If Rondo dumped it into a post-up player of the Sully caliber... isn't there a danger of Rondo's man slacking off him and doubling Sully? Frankly, Rondo off the ball was a liability. It's different than if you had someone like a Jose Calderon or Steve Nash playing point... someone who could knock down an open shot. If you slack off Calderon and try to double Sully... Sully can just kick it back to Calderon for a good percentage shot. There's no way a Rondo will ever get to a point in his career where that's a realistic option. Teams would be more than willing to live and die with Rondo jumpers. I also think that Rondo's shooting weakness means that he's most effective when he has the option of driving to the bucket (where he's very effective), commanding attention, and kicking out to shooters. Rondo is quick and a solid finisher... so it's pretty necessary to have the option of him driving. That's the main reason we traded for Brandon Bass... we wanted a big man who was more consistent knocking down jumpers than Glen Davis. We had tried to get Davis to pick up that skill, but Davis was nowhere near as consistent as Bass was. Having both KG and Bass spreading the floor effectively meant that the completely ball-dominating Rondo could run wherever he wanted on the court and theoretically have 4 different shooters to kick the ball out to. If nobody came at Rondo, he'd just drive to the bucket for a layup... and since the other team's shotblockers where theoretically being pulled out of the lane to cover the shooting big men, it eased up on the possibility of Rondo getting swallowed up by a blocked shot. ALl of this made for a pretty predictable offense and necessitated that Rondo had the ball in his hands pretty much at all times. You couldn't, for instance, give to the ball to Courtney Lee, Terry or Green and have them create their own shot. I mean, you COULD try that... but as long as Rondo was out there, there's the understanding that you have a weak shooter who you can slack off and go after the guy trying to create a shot. It makes it difficult for the dude trying to create. If someone like Ray Allen is known for "spreading the floor"... Rondo is the opposite.
With Shaq it's a little different mainly because Shaq, even in his advanced age, could plow through literally anyone in the NBA and get in position an inch from the basket. The dude was like 7'2 and 360 pounds. He had no trouble getting in scoring position. That made for a lot of lobs into Shaq (already in position) for an easy look. Having Shaq is different than having someone like KG. KG would need to put in a lot of work to get into scoring position on the post. That would take some time. Shaq could just steamroll people with his size. That's different than if we wanted to dump the ball into Sully and give him a possession to create a shot on the post. And if a Sully (or whoever we are posting up) is taking time getting in possession, that allows time for Rondo's man to slack off and double.
Check out Shaq's highlights as a Celtic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr8fv0lcjtg
Would you call that "posting up"... or was it just Shaq using his size to get to the basket and Rondo passing it to him? I think that's different than if you had someone like Al Jefferson or something. Big Al possessions take time, footwork... and room to operate.
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I don't understand why Rondo is on too high a pedestal just because many people (myself included) believe this team cannot win a title without him.
How many title contenders can afford to lose an All-Star caliber player and still be capable of winning an NBA Championship?
It's not like Boston had a big margin for error to begin with.
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I don't understand why Rondo is on too high a pedestal just because many people (myself included) believe this team cannot win a title without him.
How many title contenders can afford to lose an All-Star caliber player and still be capable of winning an NBA Championship?
It's not like Boston had a big margin for error to begin with.
We aren't winning at title one way or the other. And a team with Rondo as the best player will never win a title. This is a scoring man's league. I can't think of a team who ever won a title, because their best player passed super well. If you combined Rondo was a dominant inside scoring threat like Dwight Howard... you might contend. It would have to be a superstar who would find Rondo's passing skills complimentary to his dominance.
We haven't been a serious contender to even threaten for a title since Shaq and Perk were on the roster.
But with the current roster we have right now... losing Rondo might not make us all that much worse. It's just about the kind of players we have here. If we were loaded up with shooters who needed a playmaker... then losing Rondo would be catastrophic. But it just so happens this iteration of the Celtics has several undersized shooting guards who are most effective creating their own offense. Losing Rondo and freeing up another 43 minutes a night for them to gobble up has the potential to actually help a bit. We'll have addition by subtraction that will offset our subtraction by subtraction. Our net loss might not be as bad as people assume.
We will not be able to play the same way without Rondo. But the way I think we'll end up playing... it wouldn't be possible WITH Rondo.
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I don't understand why Rondo is on too high a pedestal just because many people (myself included) believe this team cannot win a title without him.
How many title contenders can afford to lose an All-Star caliber player and still be capable of winning an NBA Championship?
It's not like Boston had a big margin for error to begin with.
Based on some poster's expectations that the C's will improve without his play (for a variety of reasons ranging from defense, Rondo dominating the ball too much, and improved transition), I think they don't view him as an all-star caliber player.
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I don't understand why Rondo is on too high a pedestal just because many people (myself included) believe this team cannot win a title without him.
How many title contenders can afford to lose an All-Star caliber player and still be capable of winning an NBA Championship?
It's not like Boston had a big margin for error to begin with.
Based on some poster's expectations that the C's will improve without his play (for a variety of reasons ranging from defense, Rondo dominating the ball too much, and improved transition), I think they don't view him as an all-star caliber player.
Rondo's an all-star caliber player. He is. His skill is passing. IF you have great shooters or a dominant inside guy who needs lobs, you could use ROndo's passing. Rondo isn't an all-up star like a Chris Paul or Kevin Durant. He's an all-star in the same way Tyson Chandler is an all-star. Chandler's skill is defense. Chandler absolutely is an all-star player, but he's got a very specific skill. You couldn't build a team around Chandler just due to the fact he was an all-star. Granted, you might build your defense around his specific skillset. No team will ever win a title with Tyson Chandler as the best player, though. But if you combine all-star Tyson Chandler with a superstar like DIrk, you have a chance. Rondo's in that category.
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Danny Ainge pretty much nailed it on weei yesterday
“He single-handedly carried us many nights, and I don’t see how people don’t see that,” said Ainge. “When people say we’re going to be better without Rondo or the team’s going to do better without him, it’s silly. He’s a great, great player, and he’s proven that time and time again. The guy’s been MVP of probably four or five series over the last five years — not just individual games here and there or triple-doubles on national TV. He’s been the best player in a series against LeBron James. He’s been the best player in a series against Derrick Rose. He’s been the best player in three games of an NBA Finals.”
SOOOO in other words he's earned his pedestal...moreso even then your infallible chris paul
for those of you thinking we will be better without him....danny thinks youre silly
nuff said
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The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I'd hope Ray would have enough tact to not be "giddy" over a season ending injury to a past teammate.
It sure seems like that's the mentality around here though.
Well said.
I cannot seem to fathom why some would be happy we just lost our most talented player. It's disturbing.
I still think our two most talented players are Pierce and KG. Hence why the rest of this season will be so fascinating. I'm not happy we lost Rondo. I love Rondo. Plus, Rondo actually had a bit of trade value before the injury and now we're likely going to be stuck in mediocrity for years.
I do think Rondo is supremely overrated on this forum, though. And I do think Ray bailed on this team at least in part, because he didn't feel Rondo's skill set warranted his growing role. There's a lot of smoke surrounding this concept that the team doesn't necessarily enjoy the Rondo-centric offense... so I'm fascinated to see how they react without him. That's not to say I'd prefer this scenario to one with a healthy Rondo on board.
One of my biggest complaints about this season is that the roster was completely dysfunctional. I had preferred a pipedream scenario where we used a collection of some undersized SG's, underwhelming PF's, and draft picks to land a big man who could fix the roster logic. But in a way, Rondo's injury solves many of the issues this Roster had. There's no longer 4 undersized shooting guards splitting 50 minutes. Rondo's injury pushes the PG-sized Bradley to PG... it pushes our biggest guard, Lee, into a permanent starting role. It ensures that Terry remains as a 6th man where he belongs. And it makes it so that one of our most talented players, Barbosa, doesn't unfairly get stuck with random DNP's due to guard-clog (these guys now have an additional 43 minutes of playing time that they can all gobble up). It frees up our 4th best player, Jeff Green, to actually use his talents instead of trying to conform into something he's not. It will give us the option of actually trying to post-up once in a while without the concern of taking the ball out of Rondo's hands, clogging up the middle for a Rondo drive... or watching as Rondo's defenders slack off him and double the dude trying to post up. What that means is... Rondo's injury will go a long way to defining roles. This team might actually stand a chance of maximizing their talents. Our best two defensive guards will be starting with very little chance of them getting stuck with awkward size mismatches (like Bradley being stuck guarding Joe JOhnson or something). All of these things weren't possible when your 3rd best player happens to be an all-star whose best attribute is "passing" and worst attribute is "shooting". We loaded up on scorers (not shooters) in the offseason... now we get to actually USE those scorers as they should be used.
Would I prefer trading all the underperformers for something like Josh Smith, Marcin Gortat, Demarcus Cousins, Pau Gasol, etc... and rolling through the rest of the season with a Rondo-lead offense now featuring a influx of legit starting big man talent?.... Absolutely. But this might be interesting too.
Now we need a similar explanation about why Rondo (and the offense) excelled when Perk was in the middle. Was he a special case as well?
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Danny Ainge pretty much nailed it on weei yesterday
“He single-handedly carried us many nights, and I don’t see how people don’t see that,” said Ainge. “When people say we’re going to be better without Rondo or the team’s going to do better without him, it’s silly. He’s a great, great player, and he’s proven that time and time again. The guy’s been MVP of probably four or five series over the last five years — not just individual games here and there or triple-doubles on national TV. He’s been the best player in a series against LeBron James. He’s been the best player in a series against Derrick Rose. He’s been the best player in three games of an NBA Finals.”
to those of you thinking we will be better without danny....he thinks youre silly
nuff said
And then Ainge promptly called ever GM in the league and tried to see if anyone was willing to trade for the "MVP".
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The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I'd hope Ray would have enough tact to not be "giddy" over a season ending injury to a past teammate.
It sure seems like that's the mentality around here though.
Well said.
I cannot seem to fathom why some would be happy we just lost our most talented player. It's disturbing.
I still think our two most talented players are Pierce and KG. Hence why the rest of this season will be so fascinating. I'm not happy we lost Rondo. I love Rondo. Plus, Rondo actually had a bit of trade value before the injury and now we're likely going to be stuck in mediocrity for years.
I do think Rondo is supremely overrated on this forum, though. And I do think Ray bailed on this team at least in part, because he didn't feel Rondo's skill set warranted his growing role. There's a lot of smoke surrounding this concept that the team doesn't necessarily enjoy the Rondo-centric offense... so I'm fascinated to see how they react without him. That's not to say I'd prefer this scenario to one with a healthy Rondo on board.
One of my biggest complaints about this season is that the roster was completely dysfunctional. I had preferred a pipedream scenario where we used a collection of some undersized SG's, underwhelming PF's, and draft picks to land a big man who could fix the roster logic. But in a way, Rondo's injury solves many of the issues this Roster had. There's no longer 4 undersized shooting guards splitting 50 minutes. Rondo's injury pushes the PG-sized Bradley to PG... it pushes our biggest guard, Lee, into a permanent starting role. It ensures that Terry remains as a 6th man where he belongs. And it makes it so that one of our most talented players, Barbosa, doesn't unfairly get stuck with random DNP's due to guard-clog (these guys now have an additional 43 minutes of playing time that they can all gobble up). It frees up our 4th best player, Jeff Green, to actually use his talents instead of trying to conform into something he's not. It will give us the option of actually trying to post-up once in a while without the concern of taking the ball out of Rondo's hands, clogging up the middle for a Rondo drive... or watching as Rondo's defenders slack off him and double the dude trying to post up. What that means is... Rondo's injury will go a long way to defining roles. This team might actually stand a chance of maximizing their talents. Our best two defensive guards will be starting with very little chance of them getting stuck with awkward size mismatches (like Bradley being stuck guarding Joe JOhnson or something). All of these things weren't possible when your 3rd best player happens to be an all-star whose best attribute is "passing" and worst attribute is "shooting". We loaded up on scorers (not shooters) in the offseason... now we get to actually USE those scorers as they should be used.
Would I prefer trading all the underperformers for something like Josh Smith, Marcin Gortat, Demarcus Cousins, Pau Gasol, etc... and rolling through the rest of the season with a Rondo-lead offense now featuring a influx of legit starting big man talent?.... Absolutely. But this might be interesting too.
Now we need a similar explanation about why Rondo (and the offense) excelled when Perk was in the middle. Was he a special case as well?
...
You mean 2008, 2010?
Here... read these... they might help explain it for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Garnett
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_pierce
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Allen
... Little known fact that when Kendrick Perkins was playing for the Boston Celtics, they also had three guys towards the tail end of Hall-of-Fame careers. The most prominent member, Kevin Garnett, was arguably the greatest player of his generation. They also use to have a guy by the name of Ray Allen who was widely known as the most dangerous "pure shooter" in the league. His shooting skills and floor-spreading ability negated Rondo's weaknesses.
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Danny Ainge pretty much nailed it on weei yesterday
“He single-handedly carried us many nights, and I don’t see how people don’t see that,” said Ainge. “When people say we’re going to be better without Rondo or the team’s going to do better without him, it’s silly. He’s a great, great player, and he’s proven that time and time again. The guy’s been MVP of probably four or five series over the last five years — not just individual games here and there or triple-doubles on national TV. He’s been the best player in a series against LeBron James. He’s been the best player in a series against Derrick Rose. He’s been the best player in three games of an NBA Finals.”
to those of you thinking we will be better without danny....he thinks youre silly
nuff said
And then Ainge promptly called ever GM in the league and tried to see if anyone was willing to trade for the "MVP".
Highly doubt it....there was no motive behind what he said in this case its just a fact...he knows no one will take him when hes injured.....the best card he couldve played would be we have a great chance to be better...raising the value of the actual players who are assets now
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I don't understand why Rondo is on too high a pedestal just because many people (myself included) believe this team cannot win a title without him.
How many title contenders can afford to lose an All-Star caliber player and still be capable of winning an NBA Championship?
It's not like Boston had a big margin for error to begin with.
Based on some poster's expectations that the C's will improve without his play (for a variety of reasons ranging from defense, Rondo dominating the ball too much, and improved transition), I think they don't view him as an all-star caliber player.
Rondo's an all-star caliber player. He is. His skill is passing. IF you have great shooters or a dominant inside guy who needs lobs, you could use ROndo's passing. Rondo isn't an all-up star like a Chris Paul or Kevin Durant. He's an all-star in the same way Tyson Chandler is an all-star. Chandler's skill is defense. Chandler absolutely is an all-star player, but he's got a very specific skill. You couldn't build a team around Chandler just due to the fact he was an all-star. Granted, you might build your defense around his specific skillset. No team will ever win a title with Tyson Chandler as the best player, though. But if you combine all-star Tyson Chandler with a superstar like DIrk, you have a chance. Rondo's in that category.
This is really a non-issue. If the Celts win a title with Rondo as their best player (like they almost did in 2010), you'll spend the following year or two regularly posting that Rondo wasn't really their best player. Problem solved.
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I don't understand why Rondo is on too high a pedestal just because many people (myself included) believe this team cannot win a title without him.
How many title contenders can afford to lose an All-Star caliber player and still be capable of winning an NBA Championship?
It's not like Boston had a big margin for error to begin with.
Based on some poster's expectations that the C's will improve without his play (for a variety of reasons ranging from defense, Rondo dominating the ball too much, and improved transition), I think they don't view him as an all-star caliber player.
Rondo's an all-star caliber player. He is. His skill is passing. IF you have great shooters or a dominant inside guy who needs lobs, you could use ROndo's passing. Rondo isn't an all-up star like a Chris Paul or Kevin Durant. He's an all-star in the same way Tyson Chandler is an all-star. Chandler's skill is defense. Chandler absolutely is an all-star player, but he's got a very specific skill. You couldn't build a team around Chandler just due to the fact he was an all-star. Granted, you might build your defense around his specific skillset. No team will ever win a title with Tyson Chandler as the best player, though. But if you combine all-star Tyson Chandler with a superstar like DIrk, you have a chance. Rondo's in that category.
This is really a non-issue. If the Celts win a title with Rondo as their best player (like they almost did in 2010), you'll spend the following year or two regularly posting that Rondo wasn't really their best player. Problem solved.
Rondo wasn't our best player in 2010. Kevin Garnett was.
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I don't understand why Rondo is on too high a pedestal just because many people (myself included) believe this team cannot win a title without him.
How many title contenders can afford to lose an All-Star caliber player and still be capable of winning an NBA Championship?
It's not like Boston had a big margin for error to begin with.
Based on some poster's expectations that the C's will improve without his play (for a variety of reasons ranging from defense, Rondo dominating the ball too much, and improved transition), I think they don't view him as an all-star caliber player.
Rondo's an all-star caliber player. He is. His skill is passing. IF you have great shooters or a dominant inside guy who needs lobs, you could use ROndo's passing. Rondo isn't an all-up star like a Chris Paul or Kevin Durant. He's an all-star in the same way Tyson Chandler is an all-star. Chandler's skill is defense. Chandler absolutely is an all-star player, but he's got a very specific skill. You couldn't build a team around Chandler just due to the fact he was an all-star. Granted, you might build your defense around his specific skillset. No team will ever win a title with Tyson Chandler as the best player, though. But if you combine all-star Tyson Chandler with a superstar like DIrk, you have a chance. Rondo's in that category.
This is really a non-issue. If the Celts win a title with Rondo as their best player (like they almost did in 2010), you'll spend the following year or two regularly posting that Rondo wasn't really their best player. Problem solved.
Rondo wasn't our best player in 2010. Kevin Garnett was.
Wrong. KG sucked in 2010...probably his worst year as a celtic..
Game 7 finals
Gasol 18 rebounds
KG: 3
Rondo...the best celtic in that game and those playoffs...KG the reason we lost that game 7. deal with it.
He limped around most of that year and I thought he was done....which makes what he has done since all the more remarkable
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The rest of this season will be fascinating. There's a solid chance we play better without him. I imagine Ray Allen is giddy right now... the tail end of this season could completely vindicate him and prove him right about Rajon.
I'd hope Ray would have enough tact to not be "giddy" over a season ending injury to a past teammate.
It sure seems like that's the mentality around here though.
Well said.
I cannot seem to fathom why some would be happy we just lost our most talented player. It's disturbing.
I still think our two most talented players are Pierce and KG. Hence why the rest of this season will be so fascinating. I'm not happy we lost Rondo. I love Rondo. Plus, Rondo actually had a bit of trade value before the injury and now we're likely going to be stuck in mediocrity for years.
I do think Rondo is supremely overrated on this forum, though. And I do think Ray bailed on this team at least in part, because he didn't feel Rondo's skill set warranted his growing role. There's a lot of smoke surrounding this concept that the team doesn't necessarily enjoy the Rondo-centric offense... so I'm fascinated to see how they react without him. That's not to say I'd prefer this scenario to one with a healthy Rondo on board.
One of my biggest complaints about this season is that the roster was completely dysfunctional. I had preferred a pipedream scenario where we used a collection of some undersized SG's, underwhelming PF's, and draft picks to land a big man who could fix the roster logic. But in a way, Rondo's injury solves many of the issues this Roster had. There's no longer 4 undersized shooting guards splitting 50 minutes. Rondo's injury pushes the PG-sized Bradley to PG... it pushes our biggest guard, Lee, into a permanent starting role. It ensures that Terry remains as a 6th man where he belongs. And it makes it so that one of our most talented players, Barbosa, doesn't unfairly get stuck with random DNP's due to guard-clog (these guys now have an additional 43 minutes of playing time that they can all gobble up). It frees up our 4th best player, Jeff Green, to actually use his talents instead of trying to conform into something he's not. It will give us the option of actually trying to post-up once in a while without the concern of taking the ball out of Rondo's hands, clogging up the middle for a Rondo drive... or watching as Rondo's defenders slack off him and double the dude trying to post up. What that means is... Rondo's injury will go a long way to defining roles. This team might actually stand a chance of maximizing their talents. Our best two defensive guards will be starting with very little chance of them getting stuck with awkward size mismatches (like Bradley being stuck guarding Joe JOhnson or something). All of these things weren't possible when your 3rd best player happens to be an all-star whose best attribute is "passing" and worst attribute is "shooting". We loaded up on scorers (not shooters) in the offseason... now we get to actually USE those scorers as they should be used.
Would I prefer trading all the underperformers for something like Josh Smith, Marcin Gortat, Demarcus Cousins, Pau Gasol, etc... and rolling through the rest of the season with a Rondo-lead offense now featuring a influx of legit starting big man talent?.... Absolutely. But this might be interesting too.
Now we need a similar explanation about why Rondo (and the offense) excelled when Perk was in the middle. Was he a special case as well?
...
You mean 2008, 2010?
Here... read these... they might help explain it for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Garnett
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_pierce
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Allen
... Little known fact that when Kendrick Perkins was playing for the Boston Celtics, they also had three guys towards the tail end of Hall-of-Fame careers. The most prominent member, Kevin Garnett, was arguably the greatest player of his generation.
Don't forget 2009. And it's a little known fact (at least to some people) that KG being arguably the greatest player of his generation doesn't mean that he didn't spend 2010 playing pretty poorly because his knee was so bad. Too bad Danny doesn't have your insight, we could have kept Ray and won games by showing opponents wiki pages instead of playing the games.
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Here is the definitive commentary on Rondo, after which you can go ahead and lock this thread.
I am on record as one that thinks Rondo is overrated. That for every guady statistic associated with his name, there are also some negative linked to Rondo that aren't captured by stats. The bias in how many view Rondo is associated with the habits of many to counts the obvious stats while ignoring what isn't captured as conclusively.
Would I say that this team is better without Rondo? I would not go that far. Afterall, he IS a talent that can do many things that others on the team simply cannot do. His plus stats absolutely mean something. But I don't think the void he has left will be as large as some would think.
What I would say with some degree of certainty is that this team would be better if they were able to secure a big man for Rondo in a trade. That is, that is a third option down the line.
Obviously it might depend on what comes in return. I feel like most fans feel it has to be a star. The reality, unfortunately, is that I don't think many GM's around the league view Rondo that highly. DA knows this. He has been trying to sell high for the last few years but nobody is biting.
If any of the trade rumors are true, how many other true stars would receive seemingly a little interest as Rondo has? If the best ten players in the league were put on the market, teams would be lining up to trade for them. But not for Rondo.
So in the end, I am not saying we are better without Rondo. I just think the Celts would be significantly better if they could pick up a another talent in return for him.
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Here is the definitive commentary on Rondo, after which you can go ahead and lock this thread.
I am on record as one that thinks Rondo is overrated. That for every guady statistic associated with his name, there are also some negative linked to Rondo that aren't captured by stats. The bias in how many view Rondo is associated with the habits of many to counts the obvious stats while ignoring what isn't captured as conclusively.
If you think this is somehow more definitive than any other posts in the thread you're using a new definition of the word.
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Regular season Rondo is overrated.
Playoff Rondo is legit.
I was one of those fools who thought Rondo would take a step forward and make playoff Rondo something we'd see almost every night in the regular season... not only when we play the Knicks and Heat. I was wrong.
I'd be okay with Rondo being traded. As he is now, he'd be great as a #2 option behind someone who can carry a team night in and night out and get them to the post season. Right now neither Pierce nor KG are those players anymore and will only be worse next season and Rondo being great in the playoffs doesn't mean anything if we can't get there.
It's that or hope one of Bradley or Green turn into a star player or swing a deal for a star player. That being said, a group of Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sullinger and then Lee is a very good young nucleus that plays well together. I'd be fine with staying the course and see how those guys turn out.
They key is we need to get a legit center who can have 10 to 15 rebound nights consistently and play solid defense. Would have loved to sign Asik this past offseason if not for his ridiculous asking price.
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Here, if you try to look at Rondo's game in any context that falls short of outright hero worship, you get branded a hater.
Here, if you use statistics to refute some of the hyperbolic criticisms of Rondo you're guilty of outright hero worship. Goes with the territory, but the people who can't differentiate between "Rondo isn't turnover prone" and "Rondo is perfect" shouldn't be complaining about being mischaracterized.