CelticsStrong

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 02:00:22 PM

Title: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 02:00:22 PM
Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo. If you see 2 wins in last 2-3 week Vs NYK and HEAT. Defensively, Rondo is not a good playmaker. Yesterday Terry and Barbosa played much better, giving less and less space to the HEAT plays. In offensive, we see better work team. Really was hard to figure out who was the real playmaker because we see integral play between Terry, Lee and Barbosa during the game.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 28, 2013, 02:02:10 PM
Laugh.

Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Donoghus on January 28, 2013, 02:04:32 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: wdleehi on January 28, 2013, 02:05:07 PM
No.

Two times his teammates raised their games to lead the Celtics to win.


We saw what happens to this team when Rondo is hurt or missing when it matters when he got hurt in the playoffs two years ago.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: vinnie on January 28, 2013, 02:14:19 PM
How long are we going to have to see this kind of thread? It is enough to make a grown man cry --  :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 02:17:54 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: ScottHow on January 28, 2013, 02:20:12 PM
This team will now trick quite a few fans into thinking we can contend bc of regular season wins.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: scaryjerry on January 28, 2013, 02:21:13 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 02:22:06 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: vinnie on January 28, 2013, 02:23:14 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?

I think he means Rondo being out for an extended period of time. As for the record without Garnett, it is better than the record without Rondo. It is in another thread here, but I cannot find it. I think Who posted the info.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Donoghus on January 28, 2013, 02:25:05 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?

Short term = Yesterday

Long term = rest of this season and the playoffs.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: scaryjerry on January 28, 2013, 02:25:21 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?


kg missed several games the year we won the title...the team rallied and was something like 10-2 or better without him...he came back and we went on to win the title.
the next year he got hurt..team did fine...he ended up being out for the year and they crashed and burned in the second round

 were we better without kg?

short term, we were fine
 long term, no

similar situation will unfold here
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: KGs Knee on January 28, 2013, 02:25:35 PM
People must be listening to that jackass Felger too much or something.

This "we're better without Rondo" sentiment is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 02:28:41 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?


kg missed several games the year we won the title...the team rallied and was something like 10-2 or better without him...he came back and we went on to win the title.
the next year he got hurt..team did fine...he ended up being out for the year and they crashed and burned in the second round

 were we better without kg?

short term, we were fine
 long term, no

No man. KG missed all playoff in 2008-09, 1 season after the title.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Fafnir on January 28, 2013, 02:29:19 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?

I think he means Rondo being out for an extended period of time. As for the record without Garnett, it is better than the record without Rondo. It is in another thread here, but I cannot find it. I think Who posted the info.
Record can be deceptive as well.

If I remember right we finished that 2008-2009 with a lot of wins, but they were mostly tough games. We went from around a +8 differential with KG to something like a +2 per game without him.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: scaryjerry on January 28, 2013, 02:30:25 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?


kg missed several games the year we won the title...the team rallied and was something like 10-2 or better without him...he came back and we went on to win the title.
the next year he got hurt..team did fine...he ended up being out for the year and they crashed and burned in the second round

 were we better without kg?

short term, we were fine
 long term, no

No man. KG missed all playoff in 2008-09, 1 season after the title.


yeah I don't see what you're not understanding but clearly you're not. rondo is out for the playoffs just like kg that year and the team weathered the storm initially but has no realistic shot at a title
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 02:30:43 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?

Short term = Yesterday

Long term = rest of this season and the playoffs.

There is no long term if you disccus the present situation(season).
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Donoghus on January 28, 2013, 02:34:11 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?

Short term = Yesterday

Long term = rest of this season and the playoffs.

There is no long term if you disccus the present situation(season).

Of course there is.

I have no idea what you're getting at.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Evantime34 on January 28, 2013, 02:34:30 PM
I think the team is clearly worse off without Rondo, however to stir the pot here are the Celtics numbers with and without him
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701661/with-or-without-you

Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: scaryjerry on January 28, 2013, 02:34:40 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?

Short term = Yesterday

Long term = rest of this season and the playoffs.

There is no long term if you disccus the present situation(season).


yes. long term as in the whole season.rondo is a special postseason player...we'll be lucky to make it to the second round but will probably be fine the next 2 weeks
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 28, 2013, 02:36:03 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

Game 7 elimination in the 2nd round against the eventual East champs, over playing Scalabrine who had been suffering from a concussion (and play with the symptoms) and Powe who blew-out his ACL during the playoffs... oh, and no real back-up SF. We had an injured TA who barely got on the floor in the playoffs.

I'll take it. In fact, that series we should've won, even without KG, we were the better team, but you know... Rondo was no match for Anthony Johnson's penetrating prowess.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 02:40:10 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?

Short term = Yesterday

Long term = rest of this season and the playoffs.

There is no long term if you disccus the present situation(season).


yes. long term as in the whole season.rondo is a special postseason player...we'll be lucky to make it to the second round but will probably be fine the next 2 weeks

Long term for this season does not have sense. So, Vs HEAT and NYK Cs won without Rondo, playing really better. Do not forget that PLAYOFF means playing agianst the same HEAT or NYK or ohter contenders.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: scaryjerry on January 28, 2013, 02:43:59 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?

Short term = Yesterday

Long term = rest of this season and the playoffs.

There is no long term if you disccus the present situation(season).


yes. long term as in the whole season.rondo is a special postseason player...we'll be lucky to make it to the second round but will probably be fine the next 2 weeks

Long term for this season does not have sense. So, Vs HEAT and NYK Cs won without Rondo, playing really better. Do not forget that PLAYOFF means playing agianst the same HEAT or NYK or ohter contenders.

yikes..those wins over New York and Miami were the team stepping up with rondo(in their minds) out for the short term...happens all the time in the nba when a teams best player is out...IT'S NOT sustainable long term in the playoffs. man this injury has caused serious delusions
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 02:50:41 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?


kg missed several games the year we won the title...the team rallied and was something like 10-2 or better without him...he came back and we went on to win the title.
the next year he got hurt..team did fine...he ended up being out for the year and they crashed and burned in the second round

 were we better without kg?

short term, we were fine
 long term, no

No man. KG missed all playoff in 2008-09, 1 season after the title.

  During that season we won over 70% of the games KG missed. That didn't really help a lot in the playoffs.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 02:53:58 PM
Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo. If you see 2 wins in last 2-3 week Vs NYK and HEAT. Defensively, Rondo is not a good playmaker. Yesterday Terry and Barbosa played much better, giving less and less space to the HEAT plays. In offensive, we see better work team. Really was hard to figure out who was the real playmaker because we see integral play between Terry, Lee and Barbosa during the game.

  I saw much of the Heat game but not all of it, but I remember an announcer saying that they put in Barbosa to cover Cole because he'd been abusing Terry. I don't think a team that brings in Leandro Barbosa to shore up it's defense is sitting as pretty as you think. Oh, and we didn't have one of our better offensive games yesterday, not knowing who the playmaker is doesn't always lead to more efficient scoring.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 02:59:06 PM
Oh, and we didn't have one of our better offensive games yesterday, not knowing who the playmaker is doesn't always lead to more efficient scoring.

To base all offensive only in Rondos hands and desires to delivery the ball, is less productive than having better players to move the ball more for the team. Is a matter of strategies how to built the offensive plays.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: cltc5 on January 28, 2013, 02:59:31 PM
The last 3 NBA champions won championships with serviceable point guards.  Point guards who were not expected to carry the bulk of the offense but to manage the game.  Chalmers, Kidd, Fisher.  Rondo is not a necessity for this team to be successful. 
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 03:03:12 PM
I think the team is clearly worse off without Rondo, however to stir the pot here are the Celtics numbers with and without him
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701661/with-or-without-you

We are talking about this season.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Evantime34 on January 28, 2013, 03:05:33 PM
I think the team is clearly worse off without Rondo, however to stir the pot here are the Celtics numbers with and without him
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701661/with-or-without-you

We are talking about this season.
The article is several paragraphs with charts and you can't be bothered to read the entire thing? Look at the last chart, it compares Boston's production this season with and without Rondo.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 03:08:24 PM
Oh, and we didn't have one of our better offensive games yesterday, not knowing who the playmaker is doesn't always lead to more efficient scoring.

To base all offensive only in Rondos hands and desires to delivery the ball, is less productive than having better players to move the ball more for the team. Is a matter of strategies how to built the offensive plays.

  Rondo having the ball more generally leads to a more productive offense even if you label it a less productive strategy.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 03:09:06 PM
I think the team is clearly worse off without Rondo, however to stir the pot here are the Celtics numbers with and without him
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701661/with-or-without-you

We are talking about this season.
The article is several paragraphs with charts and you can't be bothered to read the entire thing? Look at the last chart, it compares Boston's production this season with and without Rondo.


Did you read the stats???

Season 2012-13

With Rondo
 
2012-13
 
18-20 (.474)

Without Rondo
 
3-3 (.500)...in this games you beat HEAT and NYK!!!
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Evantime34 on January 28, 2013, 03:12:06 PM
I think the team is clearly worse off without Rondo, however to stir the pot here are the Celtics numbers with and without him
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701661/with-or-without-you

We are talking about this season.
The article is several paragraphs with charts and you can't be bothered to read the entire thing? Look at the last chart, it compares Boston's production this season with and without Rondo.


Did you read the stats???

Season 2012-13

With Rondo
 
2012-13
 
18-20 (.474)

Without Rondo
 
3-3 (.500)

That is the first chart (which is a positive winning percentage wise). Look at the last chart
+.04 without him on the court -1.3 with him on the court.

BTW, sorry for the snark earlier. Losing Rondo has put me on edge, haha.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 03:26:52 PM
I think the team is clearly worse off without Rondo, however to stir the pot here are the Celtics numbers with and without him
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701661/with-or-without-you

We are talking about this season.
The article is several paragraphs with charts and you can't be bothered to read the entire thing? Look at the last chart, it compares Boston's production this season with and without Rondo.

  I would think that it's fairly obvious that numbers like these would be more valuable on teams that play at a consistent level, and the Celts are far from consistent. They go on hot and cold streaks, and whether the rest of the team's playing really well or really poorly will have quite an effect on how well it does without certain players.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: ejk3489 on January 28, 2013, 03:31:25 PM
The Bulls are 26-17 in Rose's absence this season. Last season the Heat were 13-1 without Wade.

Does anyone actually believe the Heat win the championship without Wade last season or that the Bulls are better off without Rose? Regular season success doesn't win you playoff games, talent does.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Fafnir on January 28, 2013, 03:31:57 PM
I think the team is clearly worse off without Rondo, however to stir the pot here are the Celtics numbers with and without him
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701661/with-or-without-you

We are talking about this season.
The article is several paragraphs with charts and you can't be bothered to read the entire thing? Look at the last chart, it compares Boston's production this season with and without Rondo.

  I would think that it's fairly obvious that numbers like these would be more valuable on teams that play at a consistent level, and the Celts are far from consistent. They go on hot and cold streaks, and whether the rest of the team's playing really well or really poorly will have quite an effect on how well it does without certain players.
+/- depends a ton on your teammates if you're not controlling for those interactions.

Unfortunately controlling for those things takes a lot of data.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: mgent on January 28, 2013, 03:35:23 PM
No, although I'd say we play about the same.

Players get more touches without Rondo which causes them to feel more involved and gives them a better chance of getting hot.

This also consequently inspires them to play harder on defense.

We get into our plays quicker without Rondo pounding the rock, and go from one play to the next quicker because we don't have to get the ball back into his hands.

It makes our offense much more unpredictable, which makes the other team think harder on defense and make more mistakes.

Pierce and KG are both elite passers that are perfectly capable of running an offense.  With Rondo they are almost reduced to pure shooters/scorers.  When they are making plays for others it really opens up more and easier scoring opportunities for them like they've been used to throughout their careers (and in 08).

Rondo's excellent shooting has been a huge asset for us this year, but it still doesn't do as much for an offense as a historic floor-spacer like Terry that can keep defenders from helping off and going under picks.

No, we aren't better, but I think with some effort we can easily maintain our current level (a middle of the pack regular season team that can beat any team 4 times in the playoffs).

The biggest loss will be his rebounding, which everyone will have to step up, mainly Sullinger, KG, Green, and Lee.

Leaves a smaller margin for error, but this isn't anything like losing KG in 09.  This isn't even as devastating as losing KG or arguably Pierce now (our best defender and scorer).
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: EJPLAYA on January 28, 2013, 03:37:36 PM
I think that we need to remember that the vast majority of the people on here that think this team is better off without Rondo aren't saying Rondo isn't talented or the best PG on this team. They do point to actual facts that show the statistics say that this is true and not just with a one or two game sample. Over his career games missed we have won more when he is off the floor versus on. That doesn't tell the whole story, however it is true.

That being said, the thing I see as the main reason this could be true is that Rondo is a very over rated defender and we clearly are a better defensive team with him sitting. Especially now that we have Bradley and Lee who are better defenders. Rondo gambles and creates rotation issues for our bigs who have to cover for him when he tries to poke the ball from behind and misses. Lee and especially Bradley do a much better job keeping in front of their man. When we play better defense we win. Fact.

Also, Rondo tends to dribble the ball at the top too much with guys standing their watching to see if he is going to take it to the rim. Some games he does, and some he just causes us to take a poor shot late in the shot clock. Terry for example runs the pick and roll really well. Rondo not so much. Bradley attacks much more and doesn't sit and dribble out the clock. The stats show we aren't really worse offensively without Rondo.

So in a nutshell, we are a better defensive team without Rondo, and about the same offensively. I doubt that this would be true if Rondo would play each game with effort, however it is what it is. This is why it is so maddening. Rondo at this point is what he is. He isn't going to improve much going forward. With this injury he very well may slip. Especially since he relies on his cutting so much.

Not sure why people are up in arms so much about the idea that maybe this TEAM plays better without him. Or at least about as well. Utah didn't slip that much after Deron Williams left and they don't have a "big name" PG. I don't think historically the stats say that a PG is that important in winning a title. I'd have been glad to have seen him traded for a legit center and think we would have returned to realistic title contenders.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Evantime34 on January 28, 2013, 03:42:38 PM
I think that we need to remember that the vast majority of the people on here that think this team is better off without Rondo aren't saying Rondo isn't talented or the best PG on this team. They do point to actual facts that show the statistics say that this is true and not just with a one or two game sample. Over his career games missed we have won more when he is off the floor versus on. That doesn't tell the whole story, however it is true.

That being said, the thing I see as the main reason this could be true is that Rondo is a very over rated defender and we clearly are a better defensive team with him sitting. Especially now that we have Bradley and Lee who are better defenders. Rondo gambles and creates rotation issues for our bigs who have to cover for him when he tries to poke the ball from behind and misses. Lee and especially Bradley do a much better job keeping in front of their man. When we play better defense we win. Fact.

Also, Rondo tends to dribble the ball at the top too much with guys standing their watching to see if he is going to take it to the rim. Some games he does, and some he just causes us to take a poor shot late in the shot clock. Terry for example runs the pick and roll really well. Rondo not so much. Bradley attacks much more and doesn't sit and dribble out the clock. The stats show we aren't really worse offensively without Rondo.

So in a nutshell, we are a better defensive team without Rondo, and about the same offensively. I doubt that this would be true if Rondo would play each game with effort, however it is what it is. This is why it is so maddening. Rondo at this point is what he is. He isn't going to improve much going forward. With this injury he very well may slip. Especially since he relies on his cutting so much.

Not sure why people are up in arms so much about the idea that maybe this TEAM plays better without him. Or at least about as well. Utah didn't slip that much after Deron Williams left and they don't have a "big name" PG. I don't think historically the stats say that a PG is that important in winning a title. I'd have been glad to have seen him traded for a legit center and think we would have returned to realistic title contenders.
I agree with this I posted the article to paly devil's advocate. I do think we are better defensively without Rondo due to his gambling. I also think we might be better in the half court without him dribbling the air out of the ball. However, the points he gives us on the fast break and the rebounds he gets makes him more valuable on the court than not.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: 2short on January 28, 2013, 03:44:53 PM
Yeah I for the life of me can't believe Ainge hasn't traded Rondo for a draft pick or that Doc even plays Rondo much less starts him.  :P
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 03:45:46 PM
BTW, sorry for the snark earlier. Losing Rondo has put me on edge, haha.

Grow up man.Can not jump from statistics to hahaha
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Evantime34 on January 28, 2013, 03:47:08 PM
BTW, sorry for the snark earlier. Losing Rondo has put me on edge, haha.

Grow up man.Can not jump from statistics to hahaha
Ok I'll remove the haha, but I think apologizing for coming off like **** is a sign of maturity.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 03:49:01 PM
BTW, sorry for the snark earlier. Losing Rondo has put me on edge, haha.

Grow up man.Can not jump from statistics to hahaha
Ok I'll remove the haha, but I think apologizing for coming off like **** is a sign of maturity.

Grow up anyways.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Jeff on January 28, 2013, 03:52:52 PM
don't make me turn this car around
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Evantime34 on January 28, 2013, 03:54:05 PM
don't make me turn this car around
Haha
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 03:54:57 PM
I think the team is clearly worse off without Rondo, however to stir the pot here are the Celtics numbers with and without him
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701661/with-or-without-you

We are talking about this season.
The article is several paragraphs with charts and you can't be bothered to read the entire thing? Look at the last chart, it compares Boston's production this season with and without Rondo.

  I would think that it's fairly obvious that numbers like these would be more valuable on teams that play at a consistent level, and the Celts are far from consistent. They go on hot and cold streaks, and whether the rest of the team's playing really well or really poorly will have quite an effect on how well it does without certain players.
+/- depends a ton on your teammates if you're not controlling for those interactions.

Unfortunately controlling for those things takes a lot of data.

  But it doesn't account for inconsistent overall play. Look at Ray (not to defend him obviously, just to make a point). He was playing a lot of minutes early in the season when KG and PP sucked and missed a lot of minutes late in the season when they were playing well. That fact alone will have a huge effect on his +/- numbers and adjusting for teammates won't affect that.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Celtics18 on January 28, 2013, 03:57:00 PM
I've been one of the biggest Rondo supporters around here for the past few years, but I hope it's true that this team plays better without Rondo, because . . . well . . . they'll be playing without Rondo.

This in no way means I'm not looking forward to his return and the opportunity of watching him lead the next generation of the Boston Celtics to glory. 
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: EJPLAYA on January 28, 2013, 04:06:06 PM
I've been one of the biggest Rondo supporters around here for the past few years, but I hope it's true that this team plays better without Rondo, because . . . well . . . they'll be playing without Rondo.

This in no way means I'm not looking forward to his return and the opportunity of watching him lead the next generation of the Boston Celtics to glory.

I think this should be the attitude of those who feel we will take a huge drop off without him. TP to you. Your next comment about him "leading" us to future glory was thought inspiring. I threw together some key qualities of a leader in sports from different articles:

Confidence
Inspiring
Integrity
Clear Vision
Helpful and Aware

Rondo definitely has the first. He has never lacked individual confidence. I am not sure that he possesses any of the others though. He has been difficult for many teammates to deal with and doesn't inspire others per se. He is kind of a loner and doesn't go out of his way to work with others and try to help them be better. His lack of effort throughout the regular season and antics that get him in trouble and suspended definitely question his integrity as far as sports go. Kind of hard to have a clear vision to lead the team when he doesn't really act like a leader.

All in all, I think we are in trouble if we don't have an actual "leader" other than Rondo going forward. He is a good PG and individual player most of the time, however I don't think he is anywhere close to a leader. At this point in his career if he is not he won't be. KG is clearly a leader. He is someone that guys can look up to. Rondo, not so much.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: OsirusCeltics on January 28, 2013, 04:16:02 PM
Long-term, this team is worse without Rondo.  Period.

 Regarding NBA Game Time, without Rondo the score is 25-16 from 2008 till now.


find our record without kg...it's possibly better then that..but long term we saw how that panned out.

What do you mean long term?


kg missed several games the year we won the title...the team rallied and was something like 10-2 or better without him...he came back and we went on to win the title.
the next year he got hurt..team did fine...he ended up being out for the year and they crashed and burned in the second round

 were we better without kg?

short term, we were fine
 long term, no

similar situation will unfold here

The situation isn't similar because KG is better and more important for the Celtics, even in KG's advanced age. KG's affect on the Celtics weighs heavily more than anything Rondo can do.

KG is the backbone of the defense, post scorer, pick-and-pop guy, automatic from 17ft, pick and roll defense, etc. endless stuff he brings to the table in the playoffs

The stuff Rondo brings can be replicated by another point guard. Really I wanna know, what does he do that is so unique and special for the Celtics that another guard can't do? Most of what he does is dribble the ball for 10 seconds and pass to open players
-Doesn't drive the ball in fear of his free throw %
-Has horrible perimeter defense
-Shaky inconsistent jumpshot

Rondo is basically non-existent on offense except for passing. Very easy for other teams to play 5 on 4, which makes the Celtics easy to defend. So people are saying Celtics have no chance when they can do the same tasks as Rondo (and probably even better)? I don't get it
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 04:27:19 PM
I meant without Rondo Cs plays much better in general this season. More freedom and diversity of action in offensive plays, and stronger and better on defensive plays. Rondo is not Westbrook in defensive actions. Imagine if you have Westbrook in Cs system and not Rondo (regarding type of PG) In offensive plays, he is the terminal of the play, and everything is depending on his ball delivery, not invloving a lot of movement and i see KG and PP more static shooters.. Analyze this fact in balance of Rondo Vs Cs play possibilities.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 04:27:58 PM
I think that we need to remember that the vast majority of the people on here that think this team is better off without Rondo aren't saying Rondo isn't talented or the best PG on this team. They do point to actual facts that show the statistics say that this is true and not just with a one or two game sample. Over his career games missed we have won more when he is off the floor versus on. That doesn't tell the whole story, however it is true.

  While it's true that the Celts have a slightly better record in games Rondo misses, I think the issue is that people latch onto stats like that solely because it puts Rondo in a bad light. Other posts have pointed out that our record (since 2008) with KG missing games is better than our record with Rondo missing games.

  Does that mean that KG is less important than Rondo? Also, our record in games KG missed in 2008 was better than our record in games where he played. Does that mean that we didn't need him that year? In fact our record in games KG missed during our title season was better than our record in games that Rondo missed. Does that mean that Rondo was the more important player that year?

  My guess is that the people who are using +/- stats would almost universally claim that KG is uber important regardless of what the numbers say. One would assume that they either don't know  whether the number proves what they think it does or they know it doesn't and are citing it anyways because it shows Rondo in a bad light.

Also, Rondo tends to dribble the ball at the top too much with guys standing their watching to see if he is going to take it to the rim. Some games he does, and some he just causes us to take a poor shot late in the shot clock. Terry for example runs the pick and roll really well. Rondo not so much. Bradley attacks much more and doesn't sit and dribble out the clock. The stats show we aren't really worse offensively without Rondo.

  In the 10-11 season our ORtg was 10 points better when Rondo played. In the 2011 playoffs, 17 points better. In the 11-12 season, 7 points better. In last year's playoffs, 11 points better.

  Are you sure the current numbers aren't just noisy because we've been so inconsistent this year?
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 04:30:21 PM
I've been one of the biggest Rondo supporters around here for the past few years, but I hope it's true that this team plays better without Rondo, because . . . well . . . they'll be playing without Rondo.

This in no way means I'm not looking forward to his return and the opportunity of watching him lead the next generation of the Boston Celtics to glory.

I think this should be the attitude of those who feel we will take a huge drop off without him. TP to you. Your next comment about him "leading" us to future glory was thought inspiring. I threw together some key qualities of a leader in sports from different articles:

Confidence
Inspiring
Integrity
Clear Vision
Helpful and Aware

Rondo definitely has the first. He has never lacked individual confidence. I am not sure that he possesses any of the others though.

  Obviously you have no idea whatsoever whether he possesses those qualities or not.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Roy H. on January 28, 2013, 04:30:39 PM
I can understand a fan not liking Rondo, and wishing we had a different type of point guard.  Certainly, there are flaws in his game, and an offense centered around a ball-dominant point guard isn't for everyone.

I can't understand fans thinking we're better without Rondo, and without obtaining an all-star level replacement.  We just lost a huge talent, and there's no way to get another player of his caliber.  That being the case, we're worse, without much of a question.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 04:49:09 PM

I can't understand fans thinking we're better without Rondo, and without obtaining an all-star level replacement.


Listen...Of course Cs can be better without Rondo. I mean the way of play than can give you better plays and more games to win. Where is the point that you can not undestand?! You might have the best PG of all time but your team can not be able to win anything. Remeber Cavs when they had Lebron. Do not mix things, on making opinions about Rondos skills, with productivity of Rondos skills in Cs sysytem of play proficency.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Roy H. on January 28, 2013, 04:52:46 PM

I can't understand fans thinking we're better without Rondo, and without obtaining an all-star level replacement.


Listen...Of course Cs can be better without Rondo. I mean the way of play than can give you better plays and more games to win. Where is the point that you can not undestand?! You might have the best PG of all time but your team can not be able to win anything. Remeber Cavs when they had Lebron. Do not mix things, on making opinions about Rondos skills, with productivity of Rondos skills in Cs sysytem of play proficency.

Hypothetically, even if a team with Rondo only gets to 85% of its potential, that's still better than what we'll be able to accomplish with Terry or Barbosa or Bradley as our starting PG.

I would have been fine with trading Rondo if we got good talent back.  Losing him for nothing hurts the team, though.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: kgainez on January 28, 2013, 05:01:57 PM
This team will now trick quite a few fans into thinking we can contend bc of regular season wins.

well i also know that last years run, we were 1-0 with Rondo. So there's that

 ;D
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: ejk3489 on January 28, 2013, 05:08:45 PM
I've been one of the biggest Rondo supporters around here for the past few years, but I hope it's true that this team plays better without Rondo, because . . . well . . . they'll be playing without Rondo.

This in no way means I'm not looking forward to his return and the opportunity of watching him lead the next generation of the Boston Celtics to glory.
He has been difficult for many teammates to deal with and doesn't inspire others per se. He is kind of a loner and doesn't go out of his way to work with others and try to help them be better. His lack of effort throughout the regular season and antics that get him in trouble and suspended definitely question his integrity as far as sports go. Kind of hard to have a clear vision to lead the team when he doesn't really act like a leader.

All in all, I think we are in trouble if we don't have an actual "leader" other than Rondo going forward. He is a good PG and individual player most of the time, however I don't think he is anywhere close to a leader. At this point in his career if he is not he won't be. KG is clearly a leader. He is someone that guys can look up to. Rondo, not so much.

I'm not sure where your opinion of Rondo being a loner and not helping others comes from when most evidence suggest otherwise...

Quote
Yet his younger counterparts claim Rondo has been the glue to the locker room for years. Avery Bradley said it was Rondo, not the seasoned veterans, who checked on him regularly during his rookie season to make sure he was eating right, had the transportation he needed or had someone to talk to when he was feeling lonely or overwhelmed.

Bradley was devastated when he sent to the NBA Developmental League in January 2011. "I felt like it was a punishment almost," he said.

It was Rondo who stopped by Bradley's apartment and stressed the move was a chance for him to play and improve, and Rondo who made arrangements to watch Bradley play in Maine before a last-minute change to a Celtics practice scuttled the plans.

"But it showed how much he cared about me," Bradley said. "How much he cares about everybody."


Quote
Rondo organized offseason workouts in Los Angeles, oversaw the basketball drills, arranged for flag football games, even tried to coax the Celtics' owners into giving them the private plane to travel to the West Coast. League rules forbid that -- "we paid our own way for everything," Rondo said -- but the trip was his idea, hatched from a conversation he had with Pierce at a Barack Obama fundraiser.

"It was Rajon's show," Garnett said.

That, insisted Keyon Dooling, is nothing new. It has been, he scolded, that way for years.

"He is the most underappreciated leader in this league," Dooling declared. "Do you know how many times we were at the Rondo family home [last season]? We were there all the time, bonding, building team chemistry.

Quote
In the middle of that heated series, Wilcox got an afternoon phone call from Rondo. "Just checking in on you, big fella," he said.

Daniels, who fell out of Boston's rotation, said Rondo was the one who implored him to stay sharp, to stay ready. "He's such an incredible teammate," Daniels said. "And he gets such a bad rap."

Quote
But Sullinger's working on expanding his offensive repertoire, a move that could pay big dividends later this season or perhaps later in Sullinger's career.

The power forward gave credit to Rajon Rondo for his 3-pointer Monday, indicating to the Boston Herald that he and the point guard work on pick-and-pop shots like those each day after practice.

Does that sound like a horrible teammate who likes to keep to himself?
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 05:23:46 PM
This team will now trick quite a few fans into thinking we can contend bc of regular season wins.

well i also know that last years run, we were 1-0 with Rondo. So there's that

 ;D

Look...After Friday, everybody was talking about difficult situation,  imminent trades etc. etc.. So, do not forget about current poor season. Seems to me, we are talking about that everything is ok. But is not...I do not thing a team can be depended on one single player. Because from wrong opinions that some folks give us, is shown terrible dependency of Cs team form Rondo. I do not think like them. In opposite, I think can play and win more games without Rondo. So, yesterday was the second example after game won at MSG
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: MBunge on January 28, 2013, 05:57:02 PM
Can the team play better without Rondo?  Well, they've largely sucked with him this season, so it wouldn't be that hard.

The bottom line is that no matter how good Boston plays now, we don't have that guy who can give a superstar performance when needed in the playoffs.  If the star on another team goes nuts, we don't have anyone to counterbalance that.

Mikie
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 28, 2013, 06:05:43 PM
Well, I am glad all of you aired this opinion because the look on PP and KG face certainly doesn't agree with this sentiment.  They looked devastated and it ruined what should have been a glorious victory.   
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: SCeltic34 on January 28, 2013, 06:32:57 PM
Another one of these foolish threads. 

Forget the regular season.  Let's talk about the playoffs, where each basketball game actually matters (and I am confident the C's will make the playoffs this year).

Quite simply, the playoffs are about player matchups.  You win playoff games with stars.  We just lost our best player, our all-star point guard who creates the biggest mismatch - to our advantage - against opposing teams.  When you say that the Celtics are a better team without Rondo, you're insinuating that we have a better chance without him against championship caliber teams like the Heat and Thunder in a 7 game series.  If you seriously believe this, I don't know what to tell you, except to share with me whatever it is you're smoking.

The wins over NYK and Miami were nice and all, but the regular season doesn't mean anything. Rondo's ACL injury is literally the worst thing that could have happened to the C's this season.  We are NOT a better team without him in any way, shape, or form.  Period.  Furthermore, we lost our most valuable trade chip, and whether or not he'll be the same player when he returns is in question.

I've learned never to count out a team that has KG and PP on it, but our playoff chances took a significant blow yesterday. And let's be honest - our chances at a title are now very, very slim.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: CelticSooner on January 28, 2013, 06:50:19 PM
Can the team play better without Rondo?  Well, they've largely sucked with him this season, so it wouldn't be that hard.

The bottom line is that no matter how good Boston plays now, we don't have that guy who can give a superstar performance when needed in the playoffs.  If the star on another team goes nuts, we don't have anyone to counterbalance that.

Mikie

This

Playoff Rondo will be missed. Unless Pierce turns back the clock five years the offense will take a step back in April.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Spicoli on January 28, 2013, 08:48:04 PM
Look, playoff Rondo is superhuman. He is beastly, but regular season Rondo is not irreplaceable. And before someone says regular season doesn't matter, last time i checked, in order to get into the playoffs you have to play well in the regular season. With Rondo in the lineup, the C's were in danger of dropping out of the playoffs. Philly is about to get Bynum back from injury, and i'm pretty sure they are going to start winning some games as a result. This is the reason why i'm not a huge fan of Rondo. He basically takes half the season off. He coasts, and only shows up when he wants to. Just like Kobe or LeBron get the blame when their teams lose, Rondo should get the blame when his team is losing as well. A collective effort from Bradley, Lee, and Barbosa more than makes up for what regular season Rondo brought to the table.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: vinnie on January 28, 2013, 10:42:46 PM
Look, playoff Rondo is superhuman. He is beastly, but regular season Rondo is not irreplaceable. And before someone says regular season doesn't matter, last time i checked, in order to get into the playoffs you have to play well in the regular season. With Rondo in the lineup, the C's were in danger of dropping out of the playoffs. Philly is about to get Bynum back from injury, and i'm pretty sure they are going to start winning some games as a result. This is the reason why i'm not a huge fan of Rondo. He basically takes half the season off. He coasts, and only shows up when he wants to. Just like Kobe or LeBron get the blame when their teams lose, Rondo should get the blame when his team is losing as well. A collective effort from Bradley, Lee, and Barbosa more than makes up for what regular season Rondo brought to the table.

You are right. They will get the 6th, 7th or 8th seed in the playoffs and likely lose in the first round. That is fine with me, but they are not winning a championship without Rajon Rondo.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 28, 2013, 11:17:52 PM
Another one of these foolish threads. 

I am sure some people are foolish getting into topics without reading even the title or understanding the title. So, grow up people and read more and post less
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on January 28, 2013, 11:36:57 PM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: KGs Knee on January 28, 2013, 11:40:48 PM
I'll tell you what, I'll play along for just one brief moment.  Maybe the team will play better without Rondo for a period of time.

The one thing I've noticed this year is that most all of the players on this team seem to defer to Rondo, even KG/Pierce to a point.  They've become dependant on his exceptional play-making ability.  As a result, it seems the effectiveness of these other players is entirely tied to how well Rondo plays in any particular game. On the whole, it may, at times, actually be a detriment to the individual games of the rest of the roster in some aspects.

This is absolutely NOT Rondo's fault, however.  It is the fault of the coaching staff and the other players on the roster.  These are highly paid professionals.  It is inexcusable they rely so heavily on one player to "pick them up".

So, going forward, maybe now that the teams security blanket is gone, they'll be forced to sink or swim on thier own, and have to pick up their play.  It happens in sports all the time.  The "lead dog" goes down and the troops rally.

At the end of the day though, in basketball a team only can go as far as it's best player can take it.  Point blank, Rondo is this teams best player.  There will be title coming to Boston this year.  Which at the end of the day, is really all that matters here in Boston. Or at least that seems to be the company line.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Rtpas11 on January 28, 2013, 11:51:26 PM
Everyone should check this out... http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/tag/_/name/rajon-rondo
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 12:15:03 AM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 12:38:00 AM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

  KG's among the leaders in highest percentage of shots assisted year in and year out. He *can* create his own shot but he rarely does.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 12:47:16 AM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

  KG's among the leaders in highest percentage of shots assisted year in and year out. He *can* create his own shot but he rarely does.

A direct correlation of a player that moves the ball, and an offense that is centered on your young PG dominating the ball.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 12:57:57 AM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

  KG's among the leaders in highest percentage of shots assisted year in and year out. He *can* create his own shot but he rarely does.

A direct correlation of a player that moves the ball, and an offense that is centered on your young PG dominating the ball.

  Yes, I'm sure it's completely unrelated to any loss of quickness or explosiveness as he's aged.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 12:58:57 AM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

  KG's among the leaders in highest percentage of shots assisted year in and year out. He *can* create his own shot but he rarely does.

A direct correlation of a player that moves the ball, and an offense that is centered on your young PG dominating the ball.

  Yes, I'm sure it's completely unrelated to any loss of quickness or explosiveness as he's aged.

All are factors.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 01:10:45 AM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

  KG's among the leaders in highest percentage of shots assisted year in and year out. He *can* create his own shot but he rarely does.

A direct correlation of a player that moves the ball, and an offense that is centered on your young PG dominating the ball.

  Yes, I'm sure it's completely unrelated to any loss of quickness or explosiveness as he's aged.

All are factors.

  I guess we'll see if his AST% takes a drop over the rest of the season.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Kuberski1 on January 29, 2013, 01:21:52 AM
No.....he's arguably our best player, certainly the best under 30.  To play our best, we need him...
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 01:23:57 AM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

  KG's among the leaders in highest percentage of shots assisted year in and year out. He *can* create his own shot but he rarely does.

A direct correlation of a player that moves the ball, and an offense that is centered on your young PG dominating the ball.

  Yes, I'm sure it's completely unrelated to any loss of quickness or explosiveness as he's aged.

All are factors.

  I guess we'll see if his AST% takes a drop over the rest of the season.

I don't think it'll mean anything regardless. KG is usually used as pick-and-pop player, it gives him a shot that he makes a good accuracy, and a shot that is usually assisted.

He's a player that is notorious for playing unselfishly and within the system.

Now, if they change up the system through which they post him more, and they leave him on single coverage, he'll get more unassisted buckets. If the usual happens, and gets double/triple teamed and he passes the ball, then he won't get the shots... does that say anything about his inability to create his own shot? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: OsirusCeltics on January 29, 2013, 01:58:55 AM
No, although I'd say we play about the same.

Players get more touches without Rondo which causes them to feel more involved and gives them a better chance of getting hot.

This also consequently inspires them to play harder on defense.

We get into our plays quicker without Rondo pounding the rock, and go from one play to the next quicker because we don't have to get the ball back into his hands.

It makes our offense much more unpredictable, which makes the other team think harder on defense and make more mistakes.

Pierce and KG are both elite passers that are perfectly capable of running an offense.  With Rondo they are almost reduced to pure shooters/scorers.  When they are making plays for others it really opens up more and easier scoring opportunities for them like they've been used to throughout their careers (and in 08).

Rondo's excellent shooting has been a huge asset for us this year, but it still doesn't do as much for an offense as a historic floor-spacer like Terry that can keep defenders from helping off and going under picks.

No, we aren't better, but I think with some effort we can easily maintain our current level (a middle of the pack regular season team that can beat any team 4 times in the playoffs).

The biggest loss will be his rebounding, which everyone will have to step up, mainly Sullinger, KG, Green, and Lee.

Leaves a smaller margin for error, but this isn't anything like losing KG in 09.  This isn't even as devastating as losing KG or arguably Pierce now (our best defender and scorer).

TP, agree with this. Pierce and KG not playing has more of an impact than Rondo not playing
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: kgainez on January 29, 2013, 02:18:57 AM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

no Green
But AB can
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: raynman on January 29, 2013, 02:32:55 AM
Ball movement is actually better without Rondo.. When he's playing, everybody's just standing around waiting for a pass..
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: bfrombleacher on January 29, 2013, 02:36:44 AM
Ball movement is actually better without Rondo.. When he's playing, everybody's just standing around waiting for a pass..

Doc's fault.

Also the old players need plays ran for them. So does Bass. Plus they don't like running.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: dmopower on January 29, 2013, 03:05:39 AM
I agree Rondo is an extremly talented player with incredible stats. And few teams could be better without him {when he plays to his strengths}.

 Several people have mentioned that our defense is better when Rondo is out and I agree, Rondo gets disinterested in Defense. Courtney Lee and Bradley both stay in front of their man better thus putting less pressure on our bigs to rotate. This is especially helpful of Sullinger as his rotations are a tad slow. Keeping our bigs out of foul trouble is a huge issue as we need every rebound we can get.

 On offense I also agree that everyone gets more touches and we move from play to play much more quickly thus making the defense think much more than just watching rondo pound the ball for 10 seconds. Harder for teams to prepare for us.

 It was also mentioned that we can run our offense through Pierce and KG. This also is correct. Both are above average playmakers and their not being utilized to their potential or to our teams advantage.

 I personaly think Rondo would be better comming off of the bench with the intent of being super aggressive.

 All in all we will have no choice but to wait and see how things unfold This should be fun guys! lol
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on January 29, 2013, 04:16:27 AM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

Yeah how is that going with Lee and Green trying to play one on one and get a basket?

I agree with Green that he can beat SF's off the dribble, but would you honestly trust these guys off broken plays and shot clock dwindling and create for their own, because I don't, as I have not seen them do that. Can you really have a consistent solid possession with Lee, AB and the rest outside of Barbosa playing his man one on one? I don't think so.

Barbosa I'm with you.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Tr1boy on January 29, 2013, 07:42:59 AM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

Yeah how is that going with Lee and Green trying to play one on one and get a basket?

I agree with Green that he can beat SF's off the dribble, but would you honestly trust these guys off broken plays and shot clock dwindling and create for their own, because I don't, as I have not seen them do that. Can you really have a consistent solid possession with Lee, AB and the rest outside of Barbosa playing his man one on one? I don't think so.

Barbosa I'm with you.

suddenly rondo is mr 4th quarter?? Honestly it was one 40 pt game last year.

Rondo Does nothing much for your team on defense nor offensive end in the 4th quarter, where 60-75 percent of the time the game is decided

Rondo scores at best no more than 20 a game and avgs around 14. But opposing guards combine can score 30 points. Lee and Bradley may only score 20 combined but also give up on avg only a combined 20 points. That is approx 10 points differential.

This is a estimate only, but last night while our offense may score 5 more points due to rondo, we would of given up 10 more points because of his defense. You think Rondo can guard Ray Allen or Dwayne Wade?? You think Chalmers doesn't score 10 points??

Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on January 29, 2013, 08:03:54 AM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

Yeah how is that going with Lee and Green trying to play one on one and get a basket?

I agree with Green that he can beat SF's off the dribble, but would you honestly trust these guys off broken plays and shot clock dwindling and create for their own, because I don't, as I have not seen them do that. Can you really have a consistent solid possession with Lee, AB and the rest outside of Barbosa playing his man one on one? I don't think so.

Barbosa I'm with you.

suddenly rondo is mr 4th quarter?? Honestly it was one 40 pt game last year.

Rondo Does nothing much for your team on defense nor offensive end in the 4th quarter, where 60-75 percent of the time the game is decided

Rondo scores at best no more than 20 a game and avgs around 14. But opposing guards combine can score 30 points. Lee and Bradley may only score 20 combined but also give up on avg only a combined 20 points. That is approx 10 points differential.

This is a estimate only, but last night while our offense may score 5 more points due to rondo, we would of given up 10 more points because of his defense. You think Rondo can guard Ray Allen or Dwayne Wade?? You think Chalmers doesn't score 10 points??

Im not saying Rondo is the main scoring threat. I'm saying he creates shots for others, hence we do not play better without him.

His court vision is undeniable, add the fact that he can get to the rim and attract double teams. Every time he gets to the paint it opens up Green, Lee, Bradley, KG, you know what I mean.

The others, not only could get to the rim on a consistent basis, they do not see the open guys once they get the defense to commit to them. They force bad shots, sometimes they cant shoot at all.

Im not implying that Rondo is going to drop buckets. What I'm saying is, the others needs Rondo to score more. There's a reason he averages 11 assist, he finds open guys for easy shots. Without him these guys are stuck either creating for themselves, which most of them cant do, or not shoot at all.

And BTW, Rondo is clutch in the 4th, so yeah, I think for our team, he is.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 29, 2013, 08:29:54 AM
No.....he's arguably our best player, certainly the best under 30.  To play our best, we need him...

Our best player is KG
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on January 29, 2013, 08:40:07 AM
No.....he's arguably our best player, certainly the best under 30.  To play our best, we need him...

Our best player is KG

Disagree.

He's the most important player. But Rondo is the best player on this team, hands down. I mean no disrespect, but I believe anybody who disagrees is a Rondo detractor. That's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 29, 2013, 08:42:30 AM
A lot of this on going argument can be settled now with Rondo out.   I say we ll just have to wait and see what happens.     

What makes this interesting is the large gap in plus or minuses to Rondos game.

What effects the team the most ...loss of his positives or loss of his negatives ?
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Fafnir on January 29, 2013, 08:44:00 AM
Ball movement is actually better without Rondo.. When he's playing, everybody's just standing around waiting for a pass..

Doc's fault.

Also the old players need plays ran for them. So does Bass. Plus they don't like running.
When you don't have anyone who can create shots, you have to run a lot of dribble hand offs and motion sets like Doc does. More people are thus touching the ball every possession.

The problem is that this sort of action isn't all that tough to defend, especially when its all you really have.

Can Doc find things that work for Terry/Lee/Bradley/Barbosa that will give our offense enough variety to work? Its a massive coaching challenge.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Fafnir on January 29, 2013, 08:47:57 AM
A lot of this on going argument can be settled now with Rondo out.   I say we ll just have to wait and see what happens.     

What makes this interesting is the large gap in plus or minuses to Rondos game.

What effects the team the most ...loss of his positives or loss of his negatives ?
Well one thing I noticed this morning, the entire difference in our offensive rating when he's on the court and off the court is explained by our offensive rebounding percentage.

Its 19.7 when he's on the court and 24.2 when he's off the court. What that tells me is that Sullinger has been awesome for us and Bass has sucked.

Edit: I just realized they don't give free throw rate and free throw accuracy in on/off. Those could also effect offensive rating.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 29, 2013, 08:57:09 AM
A lot of this on going argument can be settled now with Rondo out.   I say we ll just have to wait and see what happens.     

What makes this interesting is the large gap in plus or minuses to Rondos game.

What effects the team the most ...loss of his positives or loss of his negatives ?

Rondo lef Cs in middle season 20-23, in 8th place. So, I am sure Cs will have better score without Rondo. Not only better score but better play in general
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Fafnir on January 29, 2013, 09:00:48 AM
Okay so 82games.com has the free throws attempted and made when on/off the court.

C's attempt 19 per 48 when he's on the court and make 15.

C's attempt 21 per 48 when he's off the court and make 17.

So again given the 6 point OReb% difference and strong correlation between offensive rebounds and free throws (getting fouled as you go back up with it etc.) Sullinger is awesome and Rondo's on/off suffered by playing with him less relative to Bass/Collins.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: PhoSita on January 29, 2013, 09:07:44 AM
Okay so 82games.com has the free throws attempted and made when on/off the court.

C's attempt 19 per 48 when he's on the court and make 15.

C's attempt 21 per 48 when he's off the court and make 17.

So again given the 6 point OReb% difference and strong correlation between offensive rebounds and free throws (getting fouled as you go back up with it etc.) Sullinger is awesome and Rondo's on/off suffered by playing with him less relative to Bass/Collins.

Just another reason Sully should be starting and playing as many minutes as possible.  Bass should be playing 15-20 minutes and ideally would be traded prior to the trade deadline FOR ANY EXPIRING CONTRACT.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Fafnir on January 29, 2013, 09:14:57 AM
Okay so 82games.com has the free throws attempted and made when on/off the court.

C's attempt 19 per 48 when he's on the court and make 15.

C's attempt 21 per 48 when he's off the court and make 17.

So again given the 6 point OReb% difference and strong correlation between offensive rebounds and free throws (getting fouled as you go back up with it etc.) Sullinger is awesome and Rondo's on/off suffered by playing with him less relative to Bass/Collins.

Just another reason Sully should be starting and playing as many minutes as possible.  Bass should be playing 15-20 minutes and ideally would be traded prior to the trade deadline FOR ANY EXPIRING CONTRACT.
Sullinger is playing as many minutes as Doc can put him out there for the most part, his foul trouble really limits how much he can play.

Go look at his game log, the last 10-20 games Doc is throwing him out there as much as he can it seems to me.

(well and Miami makes it tough to play him as Jeff Green is a much better match when they don't play two bigs)
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 10:35:32 AM
Outside of Paul and Jet, NO ONE on this team can create their own shots.  Thats what Rondo does for this team.

Sure, we won againts Miami without him, but if yoy watch closely, there are times when the offense was completely out of sync, and thats where we need Rondo.

So no, fact is we are worse without him.

KG can create his own shot, Lee can create his own shot, Green can create his own shot, Barbosa can create his own shot.

Yeah how is that going with Lee and Green trying to play one on one and get a basket?

I agree with Green that he can beat SF's off the dribble, but would you honestly trust these guys off broken plays and shot clock dwindling and create for their own, because I don't, as I have not seen them do that. Can you really have a consistent solid possession with Lee, AB and the rest outside of Barbosa playing his man one on one? I don't think so.

Barbosa I'm with you.

suddenly rondo is mr 4th quarter?? Honestly it was one 40 pt game last year.

Rondo Does nothing much for your team on defense nor offensive end in the 4th quarter, where 60-75 percent of the time the game is decided

Rondo scores at best no more than 20 a game and avgs around 14. But opposing guards combine can score 30 points. Lee and Bradley may only score 20 combined but also give up on avg only a combined 20 points. That is approx 10 points differential.

This is a estimate only, but last night while our offense may score 5 more points due to rondo, we would of given up 10 more points because of his defense. You think Rondo can guard Ray Allen or Dwayne Wade?? You think Chalmers doesn't score 10 points??

  It's not an estimate it's a total fabrication. First of all Rondo's at or near the top of the league in crunch time assists every year so it's not true that he does nothing for the offense late in games. Also, check out 82games, they have production by position rankings for the league. Our pg differential is 4th best in the league and it was 2nd for much of the year. Your claims of Rondo being badly outscored by other point guards are completely baseless.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 11:07:37 AM
Yeah, the badly outscored notion is completely overplayed. Rondo's problems has always been consistency in keeping opposing PGs off the paint, not necessarily because they scored, but because it forced our big guys to step up and leave their defensive assignments open.

The other problem with Rondo's consistency is his tendency to run the offense ineffectively in the 4th quarter, particularly when we have the lead... walking the ball up the floor, milking the clock, often leaving us shooting bad shots at the last second, or playmaking too much in a way that keeps us strictly as a jump shooting team.

He improved on both of these areas during last year's playoffs, but it's always been my biggest knock on Rondo's play, and it still creeps up too often for my comfort.

Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Spicoli on January 29, 2013, 11:58:48 AM
No.....he's arguably our best player, certainly the best under 30.  To play our best, we need him...

Our best player is KG

I agree. I still think Garnett is our best player. If Garnett was out for the season then i would say blow it up, but as long as Garnett plays we have a small chance. If Rondo is the teams best player, that means the team is in serious trouble. Rondo cannot be the best player on a championship team.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 12:20:19 PM
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher, he was hampered by injuries both times we were in the finals and that hampered his effectiveness. And I would assume that your list of elite point guards wouldn't include Paul, Williams, Westbrook or Nash. None of them are noticeably more productive than normal when they face Fisher.

  Rondo always fares poorly on these boards when compared to other players because people see him play and actually witness his failures and compare him to assumptions of how well other players must play because of their reputations.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Fafnir on January 29, 2013, 12:24:29 PM
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher
When did Fisher every primarily guard Rondo? I'm trying to remember, but whenver LA tried that as a strategy for the whole game Rondo torched the Lakers. They had to put Kobe on him to keep their team defense intact.

Did they put Kobe on Rondo a ton in 2007-2008? I really don't recall how they guarded Rondo, I mostly remember Rondo being pretty darn good at home those playoffs and inconsistent on the road.

Heck in 2009-2010 Finals Rondo destroyed Fisher forcing them to put Kobe on Rondo. Then Ray torched Fisher until he got his thigh injury and after that he couldn't hit the shots he usually did.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 12:35:37 PM
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher
When did Fisher every primarily guard Rondo? I'm trying to remember, but whenver LA tried that as a strategy for the whole game Rondo torched the Lakers. They had to put Kobe on him to keep their team defense intact.

Did they put Kobe on Rondo a ton in 2007-2008? I really don't recall how they guarded Rondo, I mostly remember Rondo being pretty darn good at home those playoffs and inconsistent on the road.

Heck in 2009-2010 Finals Rondo destroyed Fisher forcing them to put Kobe on Rondo. Then Ray torched Fisher until he got his thigh injury and after that he couldn't hit the shots he usually did.

  Yes, there's that as well. And Rondo's poor play on the road in the finals was mainly due to his spraining his ankle in the first half of game 3. My overall point was that a large percentage of criticisms comparing Rondo to other players are generally based on assumptions about the other players based on their reputations.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 29, 2013, 12:41:11 PM
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher
When did Fisher every primarily guard Rondo? I'm trying to remember, but whenver LA tried that as a strategy for the whole game Rondo torched the Lakers. They had to put Kobe on him to keep their team defense intact.

Did they put Kobe on Rondo a ton in 2007-2008? I really don't recall how they guarded Rondo, I mostly remember Rondo being pretty darn good at home those playoffs and inconsistent on the road.

Heck in 2009-2010 Finals Rondo destroyed Fisher forcing them to put Kobe on Rondo. Then Ray torched Fisher until he got his thigh injury and after that he couldn't hit the shots he usually did.

Yep, that's how I mostly recollect it overall. Kobe was assigned to Rondo a lot, to play the libero role, while Fisher guarded Ray.

I thought Fisher did a good job on Ray mostly.

Meant it more in the sense that when Fisher is guarding Rondo, you don't see Rondo often taking the advantage of taking him off the dribble... something that Rondo should be able to do at ease. More of a decision making thing, rather than a capability thing.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Fafnir on January 29, 2013, 12:51:10 PM

  Yes, there's that as well. And Rondo's poor play on the road in the finals was mainly due to his spraining his ankle in the first half of game 3.
Eh, he was better at home that entire playoffs.

Home 38 MPG 12 PPG 42% FG 8.7 APG 5.3 RPG 2.4 SPG 1.5 TOPG
14 games

Away 28 MPG 8 PPG 38% FG 4.2 APG 2.7 RPG 0.9 SPG 2.1 TOPG
12 games

Rondo was still a "role player" type that year and it was his first playoffs.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Fafnir on January 29, 2013, 12:54:10 PM
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher
When did Fisher every primarily guard Rondo? I'm trying to remember, but whenver LA tried that as a strategy for the whole game Rondo torched the Lakers. They had to put Kobe on him to keep their team defense intact.

Did they put Kobe on Rondo a ton in 2007-2008? I really don't recall how they guarded Rondo, I mostly remember Rondo being pretty darn good at home those playoffs and inconsistent on the road.

Heck in 2009-2010 Finals Rondo destroyed Fisher forcing them to put Kobe on Rondo. Then Ray torched Fisher until he got his thigh injury and after that he couldn't hit the shots he usually did.

Yep, that's how I mostly recollect it overall. Kobe was assigned to Rondo a lot, to play the libero role, while Fisher guarded Ray.

I thought Fisher did a good job on Ray mostly.

Meant it more in the sense that when Fisher is guarding Rondo, you don't see Rondo often taking the advantage of taking him off the dribble... something that Rondo should be able to do at ease. More of a decision making thing, rather than a capability thing.
Huh? They couldn't leave Fisher on Rondo because Rondo did destroy him. Except its Rondo, when he destroys someone its not necessarily to score. Just as often it was layups and quality shots for the rest of the team.

So I guess if you meant that Rondo doesn't try and be a dominant scorer when he has an advantage, sure I guess. Especially not in 2009-2010.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: RJ87 on January 29, 2013, 12:56:40 PM
Yeah, the badly outscored notion is completely overplayed. Rondo's problems has always been consistency in keeping opposing PGs off the paint, not necessarily because they scored, but because it forced our big guys to step up and leave their defensive assignments open.

The other problem with Rondo's consistency is his tendency to run the offense ineffectively in the 4th quarter, particularly when we have the lead... walking the ball up the floor, milking the clock, often leaving us shooting bad shots at the last second, or playmaking too much in a way that keeps us strictly as a jump shooting team.

He improved on both of these areas during last year's playoffs, but it's always been my biggest knock on Rondo's play, and it still creeps up too often for my comfort.

Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

The 4th quarter issue isn't purely on Rondo.  I feel like we still force feed the ball into Paul's hands down the stretch of games, and its not nearly as effective now as it was in 07/08.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 01:09:58 PM
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher
When did Fisher every primarily guard Rondo? I'm trying to remember, but whenver LA tried that as a strategy for the whole game Rondo torched the Lakers. They had to put Kobe on him to keep their team defense intact.

Did they put Kobe on Rondo a ton in 2007-2008? I really don't recall how they guarded Rondo, I mostly remember Rondo being pretty darn good at home those playoffs and inconsistent on the road.

Heck in 2009-2010 Finals Rondo destroyed Fisher forcing them to put Kobe on Rondo. Then Ray torched Fisher until he got his thigh injury and after that he couldn't hit the shots he usually did.

Yep, that's how I mostly recollect it overall. Kobe was assigned to Rondo a lot, to play the libero role, while Fisher guarded Ray.

I thought Fisher did a good job on Ray mostly.

Meant it more in the sense that when Fisher is guarding Rondo, you don't see Rondo often taking the advantage of taking him off the dribble... something that Rondo should be able to do at ease. More of a decision making thing, rather than a capability thing.

  The only extended time I can recall Fisher on Rondo in the playoffs is the 2nd half of game 2 in 2010, when they put Kobe on Ray to cool him down. Rondo had a triple double that game, with 13 points, 6 boards and a couple of assists in the 2nd half including 10 points down the stretch.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: D.o.s. on January 29, 2013, 01:29:44 PM
Then you have time after time huge advantages from Rondo against his opposing PG, and yet he fails to capitulate. I think Rondo is the only elite PG who can't consistently destroy Derek Fisher for example.

  If you're talking about Rondo's playoff games against Fisher
When did Fisher every primarily guard Rondo? I'm trying to remember, but whenver LA tried that as a strategy for the whole game Rondo torched the Lakers. They had to put Kobe on him to keep their team defense intact.

Did they put Kobe on Rondo a ton in 2007-2008? I really don't recall how they guarded Rondo, I mostly remember Rondo being pretty darn good at home those playoffs and inconsistent on the road.

Heck in 2009-2010 Finals Rondo destroyed Fisher forcing them to put Kobe on Rondo. Then Ray torched Fisher until he got his thigh injury and after that he couldn't hit the shots he usually did.

Yep, that's how I mostly recollect it overall. Kobe was assigned to Rondo a lot, to play the libero role, while Fisher guarded Ray.

I thought Fisher did a good job on Ray mostly.

Meant it more in the sense that when Fisher is guarding Rondo, you don't see Rondo often taking the advantage of taking him off the dribble... something that Rondo should be able to do at ease. More of a decision making thing, rather than a capability thing.

  The only extended time I can recall Fisher on Rondo in the playoffs is the 2nd half of game 2 in 2010, when they put Kobe on Ray to cool him down. Rondo had a triple double that game, with 13 points, 6 boards and a couple of assists in the 2nd half including 10 points down the stretch.

Also this happened  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNgfDZTjp1Q
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 29, 2013, 02:16:01 PM
Folks. The way that Rondo plays in both offensive or defensive, does not help a lot a team like Cs where the biggest asset always is the power of the group. Is not a coincidence that Cs wins and play better more often, when Rondo does not play. I gave you examples of wins Vs NYK and HEAT. This team from 2008 did not have superstar players like Koby or Lebron, but this team had excellent players to join a great power of the grout. In other hand, there is a contradiction:  Doc is a great defensive coach, and Rondo is a great offensive PG. Nobody is trying to underrate the skills of Rondo. Is just underlining the fact that maybe he is not the right PG for this team (imagine to have Westbrook instead of Rondo)
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: ChainSmokingLikeDino on January 29, 2013, 02:37:33 PM
Folks. The way that Rondo plays in both offensive or defensive, does not help a lot a team like Cs where the biggest asset always is the power of the group. Is not a coincidence that Cs wins and play better more often, when Rondo does not play. I gave you examples of wins Vs NYK and HEAT. This team from 2008 did not have superstar players like Koby or Lebron, but this team had excellent players to join a great power of the grout. In other hand, there is a contradiction:  Doc is a great defensive coach, and Rondo is a great offensive PG. Nobody is trying to underrate the skills of Rondo. Is just underlining the fact that maybe he is not the right PG for this team (imagine to have Westbrook instead of Rondo)

2008 KG, Pierce and Ray were not upper echelon, superstar players? Really?

Jesus, the people on this board who kill Rondo would absolutely kill Westbrook.

And isolated wins are not a full story.

If Doc is calling iso's for PP in the 4th and they aren't working how this gets interpreted as Rondo stinks in the 4th is beyond me.

Also, look at the age of the players on this team, it isn't that maybe Rondo isn't the right PG for this team it is that maybe this team isn't right for Rondo.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 02:50:27 PM

  Yes, there's that as well. And Rondo's poor play on the road in the finals was mainly due to his spraining his ankle in the first half of game 3.
Eh, he was better at home that entire playoffs.

Home 38 MPG 12 PPG 42% FG 8.7 APG 5.3 RPG 2.4 SPG 1.5 TOPG
14 games

Away 28 MPG 8 PPG 38% FG 4.2 APG 2.7 RPG 0.9 SPG 2.1 TOPG
12 games

Rondo was still a "role player" type that year and it was his first playoffs.

  True he was a "role player" that year, true he played better at home in those playoffs, but true nonetheless that his 5 points and 3 assists in 18 mpg in the finals was related to his spraining his ankle. He had 6 points and 3 rebounds in the first quarter of game 3 so it's likely he'd have easily topped those averages.
 
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 02:58:29 PM
Folks. The way that Rondo plays in both offensive or defensive, does not help a lot a team like Cs where the biggest asset always is the power of the group. Is not a coincidence that Cs wins and play better more often, when Rondo does not play. I gave you examples of wins Vs NYK and HEAT. This team from 2008 did not have superstar players like Koby or Lebron, but this team had excellent players to join a great power of the grout. In other hand, there is a contradiction:  Doc is a great defensive coach, and Rondo is a great offensive PG. Nobody is trying to underrate the skills of Rondo. Is just underlining the fact that maybe he is not the right PG for this team (imagine to have Westbrook instead of Rondo)

  When you have a lot of players on your team that generally depend on getting passes when they're open to score (start your list with KG, Bradley, Bass and Wilcox) then a passing pg is the way to go. Having a player like Westbrook jack up 20 shots a game won't be pretty.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: rsmrostov on January 29, 2013, 03:05:28 PM
Especially I love the times when Rondo pretends to guard an opposing teams's PG, then stops and waits to get a rebound, in case the guy he COMPLETELY stopped guarding misses the shot.
He's a gambler and a coaster on D, and this team is all about TEAM D.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 03:19:54 PM
Especially I love the times when Rondo pretends to guard an opposing teams's PG, then stops and waits to get a rebound, in case the guy he COMPLETELY stopped guarding misses the shot.
He's a gambler and a coaster on D, and this team is all about TEAM D.

  I like the times when he actually leaves the arena while the ball's in play in order to foreclose on a few houses and buys king-sized sugary drinks for overweight children.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: rsmrostov on January 29, 2013, 03:24:49 PM
rajon, you? ;D ;D ;D

Especially I love the times when Rondo pretends to guard an opposing teams's PG, then stops and waits to get a rebound, in case the guy he COMPLETELY stopped guarding misses the shot.
He's a gambler and a coaster on D, and this team is all about TEAM D.

  I like the times when he actually leaves the arena while the ball's in play in order to foreclose on a few houses and buys king-sized sugary drinks for overweight children.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on January 29, 2013, 06:09:40 PM

  Yes, there's that as well. And Rondo's poor play on the road in the finals was mainly due to his spraining his ankle in the first half of game 3.
Eh, he was better at home that entire playoffs.

Home 38 MPG 12 PPG 42% FG 8.7 APG 5.3 RPG 2.4 SPG 1.5 TOPG
14 games

Away 28 MPG 8 PPG 38% FG 4.2 APG 2.7 RPG 0.9 SPG 2.1 TOPG
12 games

Rondo was still a "role player" type that year and it was his first playoffs.

  True he was a "role player" that year, true he played better at home in those playoffs, but true nonetheless that his 5 points and 3 assists in 18 mpg in the finals was related to his spraining his ankle. He had 6 points and 3 rebounds in the first quarter of game 3 so it's likely he'd have easily topped those averages.

Come on man...How can you say Rondo was key player on 2008 playoffs... Remember Bibby in 7 games Vs Atlanta. Maybe the experience of Casell helped Rondo to have a good playoff
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on January 29, 2013, 09:26:17 PM

  Yes, there's that as well. And Rondo's poor play on the road in the finals was mainly due to his spraining his ankle in the first half of game 3.
Eh, he was better at home that entire playoffs.

Home 38 MPG 12 PPG 42% FG 8.7 APG 5.3 RPG 2.4 SPG 1.5 TOPG
14 games

Away 28 MPG 8 PPG 38% FG 4.2 APG 2.7 RPG 0.9 SPG 2.1 TOPG
12 games

Rondo was still a "role player" type that year and it was his first playoffs.

  True he was a "role player" that year, true he played better at home in those playoffs, but true nonetheless that his 5 points and 3 assists in 18 mpg in the finals was related to his spraining his ankle. He had 6 points and 3 rebounds in the first quarter of game 3 so it's likely he'd have easily topped those averages.

Come on man...How can you say Rondo was key player on 2008 playoffs... Remember Bibby in 7 games Vs Atlanta. Maybe the experience of Casell helped Rondo to have a good playoff

  I remember Rondo killing Bibby in the playoffs. I don't remember anything special about game 7.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on February 03, 2013, 09:38:07 PM
Ok. 4 wins in a row. Better defense and offense. The team works in harmony much better...Cs have to trade Rondo for a big center.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: hpantazo on February 03, 2013, 09:43:14 PM
Ok. 4 wins in a row. Better defense and offense. The team works in harmony much better...Cs have to trade Rondo for a big center.

why for  "a big center"? I thought centers are generally all big! Why not for "a good center"?
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on February 03, 2013, 09:44:07 PM
Ok. 4 wins in a row. Better defense and offense. The team works in harmony much better...Cs have to trade Rondo for a big center.

why for  "a big center"? I thought centers are generally all big! Why not for "a good center"?

Ok, might be a good one ;D
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 03, 2013, 09:48:33 PM
Ok. 4 wins in a row. Better defense and offense. The team works in harmony much better...Cs have to trade Rondo for a big center.

why for  "a big center"? I thought centers are generally all big! Why not for "a good center"?

Wasn't Chuck Hayes listed at Centre for a while at 6'6" a few years back? :P

Bosh, Hortford, Big Baby (was listed as a F/C) - plenty of smallish centers out there!!
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 03, 2013, 09:51:06 PM
Folks. The way that Rondo plays in both offensive or defensive, does not help a lot a team like Cs where the biggest asset always is the power of the group. Is not a coincidence that Cs wins and play better more often, when Rondo does not play. I gave you examples of wins Vs NYK and HEAT. This team from 2008 did not have superstar players like Koby or Lebron, but this team had excellent players to join a great power of the grout. In other hand, there is a contradiction:  Doc is a great defensive coach, and Rondo is a great offensive PG. Nobody is trying to underrate the skills of Rondo. Is just underlining the fact that maybe he is not the right PG for this team (imagine to have Westbrook instead of Rondo)

2008 KG, Pierce and Ray were not upper echelon, superstar players? Really?

Jesus, the people on this board who kill Rondo would absolutely kill Westbrook.

And isolated wins are not a full story.

If Doc is calling iso's for PP in the 4th and they aren't working how this gets interpreted as Rondo stinks in the 4th is beyond me.

Also, look at the age of the players on this team, it isn't that maybe Rondo isn't the right PG for this team it is that maybe this team isn't right for Rondo.

Actually if you look at our average age, this team is reasonably young. 

Outside of four guys (KG, Pierce, Terry, Collins) I don't think we have asingle player over 30 - maybe Wilcox?  The other guys are all 30 or younger, and many of those are in their 20's.

Also if this team is too old for Rondo, how come the team pushed Miami to game 7 last year in the playoofs and dominated he second half of the season?

Rondo's game has gone downhill.  His individual numbers have gone up, but the more responsibility and power he's given by Doc the more cockly and arrogant he seems to get..and from what I've seen his play seems to suffer as a result. 
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on February 08, 2013, 05:27:36 PM
I am re asking Rondos fanatics about 6 wins in a row...

Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Eddie20 on February 08, 2013, 05:36:45 PM
Quote
“I like our drive, I like our spirit,” Celtics coach Doc Rivers said. “We’re playing selfless and free.”

We're definitely playing harder. The ball is moving much more now. We have a true motion offense and the ball is really zipping offensively.

Rondo does sulk way too often and does dominate the ball offensively.


Quote
“During the six-game streak we’ve had a lot of lessons,” Rivers said. “You don’t sit on a lead with offense. You sit on a lead with defense.”

Rondo's defense has been lackluster for some time. I like the aggressiveness and pressure Lee, Bradley, and even Barbosa put on the perimeter.  Rondo would try to poke the ball from behind way too often, which would breakdown our defense.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on February 08, 2013, 05:39:32 PM
No.

Let's not fool ourselves.

If anything, we are giving our opponents a different look without Rajon, but our window of doing anything into June of next year got ever so small with Rajon going down.

We still NEED RAJON...let's not fool ourselves. God forbid Danny trades him, we'd better be getting back CP3.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Eddie20 on February 08, 2013, 05:45:53 PM
No.

Let's not fool ourselves.

If anything, we are giving our opponents a different look without Rajon, but our window of doing anything into June of next year got ever so small with Rajon going down.

We still NEED RAJON...let's not fool ourselves. God forbid Danny trades him, we'd better be getting back CP3.

Rondo is immensely talented. However, sometimes a player for all his talent brings down a team. I think Rondo needs to adjust his game for the overall betterment of our team.

I don't think they need CP3 either. Can you imagine how our offense would look if we traded Rondo for Curry? We would still have the same motion offense, but Curry's shooting would create even more spacing. He and KG on high pick and rolls/pops would be devastating.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on February 08, 2013, 06:04:00 PM
No.

Let's not fool ourselves.

If anything, we are giving our opponents a different look without Rajon, but our window of doing anything into June of next year got ever so small with Rajon going down.

We still NEED RAJON...let's not fool ourselves. God forbid Danny trades him, we'd better be getting back CP3.

Rondo is immensely talented. However, sometimes a player for all his talent brings down a team. I think Rondo needs to adjust his game for the overall betterment of our team.

I don't think they need CP3 either. Can you imagine how our offense would look if we traded Rondo for Curry? We would still have the same motion offense, but Curry's shooting would create even more spacing. He and KG on high pick and rolls/pops would be devastating.

Well, if that is how you think, then I respect that.

But as for me - AT THE VERY LEAST - Rajon Rondo should take to heart that this team needs him - once he returns - to get the ball out of his hands more - let Pierce facilitate some...even KG is one of the best passing Bigs of all time.

I am hoping/expecting this team to step up collectively once the playoffs start.....after all, we will SORELY MISS Playoff Rajon Rondo.

And No - I don't want Steph Curry.

He is unproven, among other things.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Eddie20 on February 08, 2013, 06:22:38 PM
No.

Let's not fool ourselves.

If anything, we are giving our opponents a different look without Rajon, but our window of doing anything into June of next year got ever so small with Rajon going down.

We still NEED RAJON...let's not fool ourselves. God forbid Danny trades him, we'd better be getting back CP3.

Rondo is immensely talented. However, sometimes a player for all his talent brings down a team. I think Rondo needs to adjust his game for the overall betterment of our team.

I don't think they need CP3 either. Can you imagine how our offense would look if we traded Rondo for Curry? We would still have the same motion offense, but Curry's shooting would create even more spacing. He and KG on high pick and rolls/pops would be devastating.

Well, if that is how you think, then I respect that.

But as for me - AT THE VERY LEAST - Rajon Rondo should take to heart that this team needs him - once he returns - to get the ball out of his hands more - let Pierce facilitate some...even KG is one of the best passing Bigs of all time.

I am hoping/expecting this team to step up collectively once the playoffs start.....after all, we will SORELY MISS Playoff Rajon Rondo.

And No - I don't want Steph Curry.

He is unproven, among other things.

I agree with you on many things, but not about Curry. The guy is averaging 20 PPG (45% from 3's) and is still only 24.

Getting off-topic, but here is Kenny Smith, Greg Anthony, and Shaq talking about Curry's shooting ability and where he ranks in the NBA.

Starts at 0:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48JYtZGToQA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48JYtZGToQA)
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on February 08, 2013, 06:37:59 PM
No.

Let's not fool ourselves.

If anything, we are giving our opponents a different look without Rajon, but our window of doing anything into June of next year got ever so small with Rajon going down.

We still NEED RAJON...let's not fool ourselves. God forbid Danny trades him, we'd better be getting back CP3.

Rondo is immensely talented. However, sometimes a player for all his talent brings down a team. I think Rondo needs to adjust his game for the overall betterment of our team.

I don't think they need CP3 either. Can you imagine how our offense would look if we traded Rondo for Curry? We would still have the same motion offense, but Curry's shooting would create even more spacing. He and KG on high pick and rolls/pops would be devastating.

Well, if that is how you think, then I respect that.

But as for me - AT THE VERY LEAST - Rajon Rondo should take to heart that this team needs him - once he returns - to get the ball out of his hands more - let Pierce facilitate some...even KG is one of the best passing Bigs of all time.

I am hoping/expecting this team to step up collectively once the playoffs start.....after all, we will SORELY MISS Playoff Rajon Rondo.

And No - I don't want Steph Curry.

He is unproven, among other things.

I agree with you on many things, but not about Curry. The guy is averaging 20 PPG (45% from 3's) and is still only 24.

Getting off-topic, but here is Kenny Smith, Greg Anthony, and Shaq talking about Curry's shooting ability and where he ranks in the NBA.

Starts at 0:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48JYtZGToQA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48JYtZGToQA)

The vid is all fine and dandy, but BOS could very well increase their winning streak to 20 games and I'd STILL not trade Rajon Rondo for Steph Curry.

Rajon Rondo is proven...he's stepped up his game in the playoffs....he's been to TWO Finals, winning one...he's become a better shooter.

I have no idea how Steph Curry would react in playoff situations....with LeBron staring him down...with Wade in his face...all I DO know, is THIS:

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqtt7iExbHPPtD576WQj3QHTtCMPLNTFYaypsAdpDmPQamjcAC)

Steph Curry's "Elite Shooting" is Fool's Gold in the face of adversity.

I'll take Rajon Rondo, please.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: eugen on February 10, 2013, 11:40:09 PM
No.

Let's not fool ourselves.


We still NEED RAJON.

Maybe you need Rondo to clean your home or something?!
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Mazingerz on February 11, 2013, 12:38:57 AM
No.

Let's not fool ourselves.


We still NEED RAJON.

Maybe you need Rondo to clean your home or something?!

Whoa low blow man. Rondo has been and will be a Beast for the Celtics. Past performances dictate it. People tend to forget the one armed rondo playing the heat, or the Rondo playing with a torn ACL. let's not kid our selves into thinking that we do not need him. This team struggles to close out 4th Quarters because of a lack in stability at the point. People say that he turns it on only when he feels like it, but the SYSTEM (DOC'S SYSTEM) DICTATES THAT THE BALL BE ON HIS HANDS TO EXECUTE PLAYS. Now that he is out, Doc has no option but to go freestyle.

When Rondo comes back the Celtics will be unstoppable. Rondo has been adept at the freeflow style of playing. He wanted to run in prior seasons. Now the team is running. We are running not because we are without him but rather because Doc has no option but to execute freestyle.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 11, 2013, 12:52:37 AM
No.

Let's not fool ourselves.


We still NEED RAJON.

Maybe you need Rondo to clean your home or something?!

Whoa low blow man. Rondo has been and will be a Beast for the Celtics. Past performances dictate it. People tend to forget the one armed rondo playing the heat, or the Rondo playing with a torn ACL. let's not kid our selves into thinking that we do not need him. This team struggles to close out 4th Quarters because of a lack in stability at the point. People say that he turns it on only when he feels like it, but the SYSTEM (DOC'S SYSTEM) DICTATES THAT THE BALL BE ON HIS HANDS TO EXECUTE PLAYS. Now that he is out, Doc has no option but to go freestyle.

When Rondo comes back the Celtics will be unstoppable. Rondo has been adept at the freeflow style of playing. He wanted to run in prior seasons. Now the team is running. We are running not because we are without him but rather because Doc has no option but to execute freestyle.

But........we were playing sub 500 ball with him.....soo....why weren't we unstoppable then? Its not a coincidence the celtics are playing their best ball of the year the very second rondo goes down.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: crimson_stallion on February 11, 2013, 12:52:37 AM
No.

Let's not fool ourselves.


We still NEED RAJON.

Maybe you need Rondo to clean your home or something?!

Whoa low blow man. Rondo has been and will be a Beast for the Celtics. Past performances dictate it. People tend to forget the one armed rondo playing the heat, or the Rondo playing with a torn ACL. let's not kid our selves into thinking that we do not need him. This team struggles to close out 4th Quarters because of a lack in stability at the point. People say that he turns it on only when he feels like it, but the SYSTEM (DOC'S SYSTEM) DICTATES THAT THE BALL BE ON HIS HANDS TO EXECUTE PLAYS. Now that he is out, Doc has no option but to go freestyle.

When Rondo comes back the Celtics will be unstoppable. Rondo has been adept at the freeflow style of playing. He wanted to run in prior seasons. Now the team is running. We are running not because we are without him but rather because Doc has no option but to execute freestyle.

Call me crazy, but I'd say we have struggles to close out reg season games this year when we HAVE had him.

We've won multiple overtime games over the last couple of weeks, closing out games without Rondo doesn't appear to be that big an issue...
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Mazingerz on February 11, 2013, 12:56:09 AM
No.

Let's not fool ourselves.


We still NEED RAJON.

Maybe you need Rondo to clean your home or something?!

Whoa low blow man. Rondo has been and will be a Beast for the Celtics. Past performances dictate it. People tend to forget the one armed rondo playing the heat, or the Rondo playing with a torn ACL. let's not kid our selves into thinking that we do not need him. This team struggles to close out 4th Quarters because of a lack in stability at the point. People say that he turns it on only when he feels like it, but the SYSTEM (DOC'S SYSTEM) DICTATES THAT THE BALL BE ON HIS HANDS TO EXECUTE PLAYS. Now that he is out, Doc has no option but to go freestyle.

When Rondo comes back the Celtics will be unstoppable. Rondo has been adept at the freeflow style of playing. He wanted to run in prior seasons. Now the team is running. We are running not because we are without him but rather because Doc has no option but to execute freestyle.

Call me crazy, but I'd say we have struggles to close out reg season games this year when we HAVE had him.

We've won multiple overtime games over the last couple of weeks, closing out games without Rondo doesn't appear to be that big an issue...

Clippers and nuggets game come to my mind . . .
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 11, 2013, 01:57:13 AM
face it...Rondo... for all,his,assets may not be the right guy for this team, with its,present make up of players.

Easier to trade Rondo, than to trade off half the team that does play team ball,and share .

Heal him up and trade him for a Nice big  who can play the 5
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: lightspeed5 on February 11, 2013, 02:13:43 AM
face it...Rondo... for all,his,assets may not be the right guy for this team, with its,present make up of players.

Easier to trade Rondo, than to trade off half the team that does play team ball,and share .

Heal him up and trade him for a Nice big  who can play the 5
rondo, according to ESPN, is the 12th best player in the league. Why would you trade the 12th best player in the game, whom is on a long-term bargain of a contract? You build around this player to maximize their abilities. He is an x-factor player, a player whom can score a triple double on demand and is scared of noone.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: GreenEnvy on February 11, 2013, 02:31:01 AM
face it...Rondo... for all,his,assets may not be the right guy for this team, with its,present make up of players.

Easier to trade Rondo, than to trade off half the team that does play team ball,and share .

Heal him up and trade him for a Nice big  who can play the 5
rondo, according to ESPN, is the 12th best player in the league. Why would you trade the 12th best player in the game, whom is on a long-term bargain of a contract? You build around this player to maximize their abilities. He is an x-factor player, a player whom can score a triple double on demand and is scared of noone.

You lost me at according to ESPN.

Don't build your franchise around a PG. Unless his name is Magic, he isn't leading you to a title. Payton, Kidd, Nash, etc. could never do it. Big men and unbelievable scorers are who you build around. Rondo is 6 feet tall and barely shoots 60% from the free throw line. He is neither.

He is a fun and exciting player and one of the best at his position. He is not a franchise player, he is not the most important player on this team, and he is proving to not be as good a fit for this roster as we wanted to believe. Even if he is the 12th best player per ESPN, maybe the 28th best player would make our team better than Rondo can. It's all about chemistry and fit.

And I am sure most GM's would not give equal value because they know the C's offense caters to him and inflates his numbers. No way he averages 11+ APG on any other team (contender or otherwise) or shoots such a good percentage if defenses actually focus on him for once.

If the days of Rondo dominating the ball are over and he will never average 11 APG again, what is so special about a 12/7/4 PG who gambles on defense and can't shoot?
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: LarBrd33 on February 11, 2013, 03:17:53 AM
face it...Rondo... for all,his,assets may not be the right guy for this team, with its,present make up of players.

Easier to trade Rondo, than to trade off half the team that does play team ball,and share .

Heal him up and trade him for a Nice big  who can play the 5
rondo, according to ESPN, is the 12th best player in the league. Why would you trade the 12th best player in the game, whom is on a long-term bargain of a contract? You build around this player to maximize their abilities. He is an x-factor player, a player whom can score a triple double on demand and is scared of noone.

You lost me at according to ESPN.

Don't build your franchise around a PG. Unless his name is Magic, he isn't leading you to a title. Payton, Kidd, Nash, etc. could never do it. Big men and unbelievable scorers are who you build around. Rondo is 6 feet tall and barely shoots 60% from the free throw line. He is neither.

He is a fun and exciting player and one of the best at his position. He is not a franchise player, he is not the most important player on this team, and he is proving to not be as good a fit for this roster as we wanted to believe. Even if he is the 12th best player per ESPN, maybe the 28th best player would make our team better than Rondo can. It's all about chemistry and fit.

And I am sure most GM's would not give equal value because they know the C's offense caters to him and inflates his numbers. No way he averages 11+ APG on any other team (contender or otherwise) or shoots such a good percentage if defenses actually focus on him for once.

If the days of Rondo dominating the ball are over and he will never average 11 APG again, what is so special about a 12/7/4 PG who gambles on defense and can't shoot?
I love the EFF stat.  If we're looking purely at statistics, Rondo was putting up the 17th best stats in the league.   He was having his best season ever... but we're starting to realize that his stats are slightly inflated due to the team's constricted style of play.  It's pretty evident that we're most successful sharing the ball and letting our many scorers create.  The days of Rondo controlling the ball constantly are probably over.  Steve Nash was able to do it, because Steve Nash was arguably the best shooter in the league.  Rondo will need to adapt... and with that means a drop in his stats.  He's still an allstar player, but this team is stacked with guards that play best when they get a chance to create for themselves.  If they want to trade all of them for pure shooters like JJ Reddick, Rondo might be able to continue racking up the assists.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 11, 2013, 06:34:27 AM
We looked great down the stretch when we could not score in the 4th.  I think had Rondo been playing there would have not been any overtime and we'd won straight up.   Lucky for us we gutted it out and won despite ourselves.
Title: Re: Is a fact: this team play better without Rondo
Post by: BballTim on February 11, 2013, 07:06:56 AM
face it...Rondo... for all,his,assets may not be the right guy for this team, with its,present make up of players.

Easier to trade Rondo, than to trade off half the team that does play team ball,and share .

Heal him up and trade him for a Nice big  who can play the 5
rondo, according to ESPN, is the 12th best player in the league. Why would you trade the 12th best player in the game, whom is on a long-term bargain of a contract? You build around this player to maximize their abilities. He is an x-factor player, a player whom can score a triple double on demand and is scared of noone.

You lost me at according to ESPN.

Don't build your franchise around a PG. Unless his name is Magic, he isn't leading you to a title. Payton, Kidd, Nash, etc. could never do it. Big men and unbelievable scorers are who you build around. Rondo is 6 feet tall and barely shoots 60% from the free throw line. He is neither.

He is a fun and exciting player and one of the best at his position. He is not a franchise player, he is not the most important player on this team, and he is proving to not be as good a fit for this roster as we wanted to believe. Even if he is the 12th best player per ESPN, maybe the 28th best player would make our team better than Rondo can. It's all about chemistry and fit.

And I am sure most GM's would not give equal value because they know the C's offense caters to him and inflates his numbers. No way he averages 11+ APG on any other team (contender or otherwise) or shoots such a good percentage if defenses actually focus on him for once.

If the days of Rondo dominating the ball are over and he will never average 11 APG again, what is so special about a 12/7/4 PG who gambles on defense and can't shoot?
I love the EFF stat.  If we're looking purely at statistics, Rondo was putting up the 17th best stats in the league.   He was having his best season ever... but we're starting to realize that his stats are slightly inflated due to the team's constricted style of play.  It's pretty evident that we're most successful sharing the ball and letting our many scorers create.  The days of Rondo controlling the ball constantly are probably over.  Steve Nash was able to do it, because Steve Nash was arguably the best shooter in the league.  Rondo will need to adapt... and with that means a drop in his stats.  He's still an allstar player, but this team is stacked with guards that play best when they get a chance to create for themselves.  If they want to trade all of them for pure shooters like JJ Reddick, Rondo might be able to continue racking up the assists.

  Another day, another prediction of Rondo's demise. Hopefully this will be as accurate as the posts about how Rondo's dependent on Ray's shooting to get his assists.