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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rondohondo on January 27, 2013, 05:53:18 PM

Title: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: rondohondo on January 27, 2013, 05:53:18 PM
Quote
Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
GM Ainge on Celts direction: "You can't just philosophically say, 'We're going to do 'this.' You have to tell me what opportunities we have"

Doesn't say much, but sound like he is open to trading PP and KG if the right package comes along , which I assume is Expiring contracts and players on rookie deal or draft picks

Clippers and Spurs make some since if you can get back Jordan and/or Bledsoe from the clips ,or Splitter from the spurs.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Kane3387 on January 27, 2013, 05:54:50 PM
It's time.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 27, 2013, 05:54:53 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Lucky17 on January 27, 2013, 05:55:38 PM
In other words, "I'm not going to be the guy who trades KG and Pierce for pennies on the dollar just because Rondo is out for the year."
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: clover on January 27, 2013, 05:56:03 PM
Quote
Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
GM Ainge on Celts direction: "You can't just philosophically say, 'We're going to do 'this.' You have to tell me what opportunities we have"

Doesn't say much, but sound like he is open to trading PP and KG if the right package comes along , which I assume is Expiring contracts and players on rookie deal or draft picks

Clippers and Spurs make some since if you can get back Jordan and/or Bledsoe from the clips ,or Splitter from the spurs.

Though Danny lost his biggest chip, Pierce's triple-dub, however inefficient, on national TV may have helped the cause in another way.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: hpantazo on January 27, 2013, 05:56:11 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

But is there anything there to actually blow up? We are fighting for the 8th seed and just lost our best player. Our 2nd and 3rd best players are a year or two away from retirement.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: rondohondo on January 27, 2013, 05:56:21 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

and why's that? the chance at a title is clearly over, what's the point of keeping them together ?
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Cman on January 27, 2013, 05:58:21 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

But is there anything there to actually blow up? We are fighting for the 8th seed and just lost our best player. Our 2nd and 3rd best players are a year or two away from retirement.

pretty much my thoughts as well.
what is there to blow up?
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: rondohondo on January 27, 2013, 05:58:22 PM
Quote
Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
GM Ainge on Celts direction: "You can't just philosophically say, 'We're going to do 'this.' You have to tell me what opportunities we have"

Doesn't say much, but sound like he is open to trading PP and KG if the right package comes along , which I assume is Expiring contracts and players on rookie deal or draft picks

Clippers and Spurs make some since if you can get back Jordan and/or Bledsoe from the clips ,or Splitter from the spurs.

Though Danny lost his biggest chip, Pierce's triple-dub, however inefficient, on national TV may have helped the cause in another way.

KG also had 24 and 11 today. I have to believe there will be a lot of contenders calling about KG and PP
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: hpantazo on January 27, 2013, 05:59:06 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

and why's that? the chance at a title is clearly over, what's the point of keeping them together ?

trading Sullinger or Bradley would be dumb. Trading Pierce or KG is normal at this point if he can get decent value.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: vinnie on January 27, 2013, 05:59:56 PM
Makes sense. As far as blowing things up, there is nothing to blow up. 8th seed with Rondo and maybe they can hold on to the 8th seed without him. The rebuilding starts now or in the offseason, but there is nothing left to blow up.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: rondohondo on January 27, 2013, 06:00:57 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

and why's that? the chance at a title is clearly over, what's the point of keeping them together ?

trading Sullinger or Bradley would be dumb. Trading Pierce or KG is normal at this point if he can get decent value.

Well yea, I never said anything about Sully and Bradley. KG,PP,Terry and Bass should all be options to be traded. Keep Lee, Green, Sully, Bradley and Melo
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: hpantazo on January 27, 2013, 06:02:39 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

and why's that? the chance at a title is clearly over, what's the point of keeping them together ?

trading Sullinger or Bradley would be dumb. Trading Pierce or KG is normal at this point if he can get decent value.

Well yea, I never said anything about Sully and Bradley. KG,PP,Terry and Bass should all be options to be traded. Keep Lee, Green, Sully, Bradley and Melo

yes, sorry, I was responding to Budweiser's comment. Of course we keep the young guys, trade KG, Pierce, and Terry if we get decent value. Bass just flat out sucks, don't know if we can do anything with him
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: KGs Knee on January 27, 2013, 06:02:44 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

and why's that? the chance at a title is clearly over, what's the point of keeping them together ?

Gives KG and Paul a chance to retire with the team they deserve to.  Sure, our championship hopes are done, but, if they could at least make the playoffs and go out giving a valiant effort, it'd be something the fans could remember.

Let KG and Paul retire at the end of this season if they want to, tank next year, then use the cap space we could have to rebuild.

Trading them now will likely result in bad contracts coming back our way.  No thanks.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 27, 2013, 06:02:47 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

and why's that? the chance at a title is clearly over, what's the point of keeping them together ?

It's clearly not over. We have a pretty hard window until 3 years from now to end this, and from there we're primed with cap space, young assets, and very tradeable pieces (who'll have their highest trade value then).

Blowing it up before then would be a big mistake. You won't actually gain much by doing "blowing up" moves now. All you'll do is give us an extension of our years of mediocrity before we're actually good again.

As bad as this team looks, they will still be a dangerous team in the playoffs, and I'm comfortable with that with the outside shot at the championship.

Also, with our current roster, we're just a few tweak away from really getting were we need to be, with or without Rondo, and we still have room to make those sorts of additions within this year, and within the frame of the current window.

So yes, blowing it up would be a mistake and a reactionary move which serves little purpose in my opinion.

The only thing that has changed for this team for my consideration, is the trade value Rondo has and the concern on how effective he'd be in his return if we end up keeping him.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Kane3387 on January 27, 2013, 06:04:36 PM
Send kg to the thunder and pierce to the clippers.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: hpantazo on January 27, 2013, 06:05:19 PM
Send KG back to the T-wolves for Shved and Pekovich
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 27, 2013, 06:05:27 PM
Hopefully we get a win streak and make no deals still!
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: hpantazo on January 27, 2013, 06:06:41 PM
Send Pierce to the mavs for Mayo and Kaveman
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 27, 2013, 06:07:24 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

and why's that? the chance at a title is clearly over, what's the point of keeping them together ?

It's not clearly over.  Nothing is over until the proverbial fat lady sings.

Maybe our guys get inspired by this and decide "were going to do this for Rondo", and suddenly everybody's effort level goes through the roof.

Maybe guys like Terry and Barbosa flourish with the extra role/minutes and elevate their games to vintage levels.

Maybe Green sees this as a sign that he needs to be the man to step up, and suddenly he gets some of the aggressive mentality that could push him towards a breakout season.

Maybe Danny makse a trade to get us a second key scorer (such as Gay or Mayo) and the change improves us as a team.

Maybe Doc increases the minutes for KG and Pierce a little, and having them on the court for an extra few minutes makes us that much stronger.

Reality is we just don't know right now how good this team can be without Rondo.  From memory we are now 3-1 so far this season in games we've played without him.  Obviously a small sample size, but I think 3 of those 4 games were against playoff calibre teams.

Either way, we will find out soon enough which way the teams goes.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: rondohondo on January 27, 2013, 06:17:04 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

and why's that? the chance at a title is clearly over, what's the point of keeping them together ?

It's not clearly over.  Nothing is over until the proverbial fat lady sings.

Maybe our guys get inspired by this and decide "were going to do this for Rondo", and suddenly everybody's effort level goes through the roof.

Maybe guys like Terry and Barbosa flourish with the extra role/minutes and elevate their games to vintage levels.

Maybe Green sees this as a sign that he needs to be the man to step up, and suddenly he gets some of the aggressive mentality that could push him towards a breakout season.

Maybe Danny makse a trade to get us a second key scorer (such as Gay or Mayo) and the change improves us as a team.

Maybe Doc increases the minutes for KG and Pierce a little, and having them on the court for an extra few minutes makes us that much stronger.

Reality is we just don't know right now how good this team can be without Rondo.  From memory we are now 3-1 so far this season in games we've played without him.  Obviously a small sample size, but I think 3 of those 4 games were against playoff calibre teams.

Either way, we will find out soon enough which way the teams goes.

Looks like a lot of Maybe's to me.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0jm4snDOkk

Just think we should get any young prospects and picks that we can(only if they come with expiring contracts). PP and KG are gone after this year anyway IMO.Why not get some assets for them?
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 27, 2013, 06:19:35 PM
It's time, I agree.   I would give these guys a chance to go out a winner, they deserve it and we deserve the youth and lottery.   This was a great win today but I do not think it is the start of a trend.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: edwardjkasche on January 27, 2013, 06:21:32 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

But is there anything there to actually blow up? We are fighting for the 8th seed and just lost our best player. Our 2nd and 3rd best players are a year or two away from retirement.

Very succinct way of putting it.  Nothing would be "blown up" at this point.  If Ainge makes any moves now, they're for the future.  And, Ainge is paid to look at the present AND the future.

I can tell you this: Ainge cannot rebuild this team through the draft and free agency alone.  We don't have any good enough draft picks (and only one pick this year) and A-level talent is either re-signed or traded prior to free agency.  Over-paying guys like Josh Smith is not the answer.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Kane3387 on January 27, 2013, 06:22:42 PM
Send Pierce to the mavs for Mayo and Kaveman

He deserves a chance at a ring. Send him to warriors with a returning bogut or to the clippers.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 27, 2013, 06:27:46 PM
Looks like a lot of Maybe's to me.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0jm4snDOkk

Just think we should get any young prospects and picks that we can(only if they come with expiring contracts). PP and KG are gone after this year anyway IMO.Why not get some assets for them?

Yes, that's the whole idea - because we have never seen this team play for a long stretch (more than 2 or 3 games) without Rondo, there is no possible way for us to be able to predict how we will do.

But my point is that unlike last season, this team is incredibly deep.  We have a LOT of talent on this roster which, to this point, has simply been underperforming.

If this team gives it 100% effort every night than we can beat any team out there, it's only a question of whether they will do that...or whether they will continue with lame effort.

Either way trading the only two guys who give us a shot at competing isn't the answer.

Pierce doesn't want to go to any other team - trade him and he would rather retire then play elsewhere, I'm sure of that. Ditto with KG.  Everyone is talking like it's the right thing by them to trade them to a contender, but do you honestly think they want to go elsewhere?

I think they'd rather fight this season out, then if it doesn't work think things over in the off-season and decide from there.

Last year we just didn't have enough talent to win without our big four in tact.  This season we do, we just lacked the motivation so far.

Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Who on January 27, 2013, 06:28:42 PM
I have zero expectation of Danny Ainge blowing this up.

I fully expect Ainge to ride this out.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Who on January 27, 2013, 06:29:50 PM
In other words, "I'm not going to be the guy who trades KG and Pierce for pennies on the dollar just because Rondo is out for the year."
(1) In order to get a nice big draft pick in the middle to top half of lottery

and,

(2) Get rid of all the long term contracts and enter this summer with a huge amount of cap space
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: vinnie on January 27, 2013, 06:30:21 PM
Looks like a lot of Maybe's to me.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0jm4snDOkk

Just think we should get any young prospects and picks that we can(only if they come with expiring contracts). PP and KG are gone after this year anyway IMO.Why not get some assets for them?

Yes, that's the whole idea - because we have never seen this team play for a long stretch (more than 2 or 3 games) without Rondo, there is no possible way for us to be able to predict how we will do.

But my point is that unlike last season, this team is incredibly deep.  We have a LOT of talent on this roster which, to this point, has simply been underperforming.

If this team gives it 100% effort every night than we can beat any team out there, it's only a question of whether they will do that...or whether they will continue with lame effort.

Either way trading the only two guys who give us a shot at competing isn't the answer.

Pierce doesn't want to go to any other team - trade him and he would rather retire then play elsewhere, I'm sure of that. Ditto with KG.  Everyone is talking like it's the right thing by them to trade them to a contender, but do you honestly think they want to go elsewhere?

I think they'd rather fight this season out, then if it doesn't work think things over in the off-season and decide from there.

Last year we just didn't have enough talent to win without our big four in tact.  This season we do, we just lacked the motivation so far.

So you are saying without Rondo they still have enough talent to win? Win what? Win the 8th seed in the playoffs? They have 4 journeyman guards, two aging, former superstars, a power forward who can't get out of his own way, a small forward who had a great game today, but who has underachieved his entire career, as PF/center who is always injured, and a rookie PF who has tremendous potential. A decent team, but nothing to write home about.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: hpantazo on January 27, 2013, 06:37:32 PM
Send Pierce to the mavs for Mayo and Kaveman

He deserves a chance at a ring. Send him to warriors with a returning bogut or to the clippers.

he already got a ring, he's not Barkley or Nash
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Who on January 27, 2013, 06:37:43 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

and why's that? the chance at a title is clearly over, what's the point of keeping them together ?

trading Sullinger or Bradley would be dumb. Trading Pierce or KG is normal at this point if he can get decent value.

Forget value. Just get rid of them to get a better draft pick.

Plus, to get their contracts off the books. Both of which will create opportunities to add quality talent down the road. 

Edit: Sorry, I feel this was unclear. What I meant to say was that the main value in dumping Pierce and Garnett is not in what Danny directly receives for them but from what opportunities it will create further down the road -- with the improved draft position and cap flexibility.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Kane3387 on January 27, 2013, 06:45:55 PM
Send Pierce to the mavs for Mayo and Kaveman

He deserves a chance at a ring. Send him to warriors with a returning bogut or to the clippers.

he already got a ring, he's not Barkley or Nash

It's a respect thing. Plus I can see trade packages that are better and from better teams.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: blink on January 27, 2013, 06:48:36 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

this is the 2nd post of yours that I 100% agree with.  We don't get value back, we just throw away the season instead of going down swinging.  Lets just play out the string, make changes over the summer if need be.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 27, 2013, 06:51:05 PM
So you are saying without Rondo they still have enough talent to win? Win what? Win the 8th seed in the playoffs? They have 4 journeyman guards, two aging, former superstars, a power forward who can't get out of his own way, a small forward who had a great game today, but who has underachieved his entire career, as PF/center who is always injured, and a rookie PF who has tremendous potential. A decent team, but nothing to write home about.

The big problem here is that everybody on this board grossly overvalues Rondo.

Everybody looks at Rondo's individual numbers as a reason why he is irreplacable - pointing to all of his assists and his triple doubles as reasons why we have no hope without him. 

The thing is Rondo just had two triple doubles in a row, and we lost both games.

When Rondo has huge games this season, it hasn't necessarilly resulted in us getting wins. We get wins when our other guys play well.  We get wins when we play hardcore, suffocating defense (like we did tonight) for an entire game.  We get wins when everybody on our team contributes offensively.

No I'm not saying we're better off without Rondo, but I don't necessarilly believe we are much (if any) worse without him either.

We beat Miami today in double OT without Rondo.  Let's be honest - do you believe this would have been a blowout if we had him?  I don't.  I believe the game would have been just as hard fought regardless, and we still would have struggled to win.

I believe that the defensive pressure of Bradley + Lee against Wade today was huge, and at least as valuable to us as any of Rondo's assists.

I believe that Jeff Green's defense on Lebron was the difference between him scoring 34 points and him scoring 45 points (in the 52 minutes he played).

I believe it was Green who took a huge charge on Wade near the end of the game, a play that could have been the difference in the game.

I believe it was a combination of KG and Pierce who hit the two key baskets down the stretch which essentially won us this game.

I believe it was Terry who calmly hit all of those clutch free throws to keep the stop Miami from building a lead.

I believe it was Barbosa who came out and put on a nice scoring run when it looked like Miami were about to run away with the game.

What I'm saying is Basketball is a team game.  Last season we went deep in the playoffs, and while KG and Rondo had a lot of huge games to take us there, just as many of those games were won with the defense and effort of Bradley, Dooling, Pietrus and Marquis. 

How many games did the Lakers win in the past off big clutch shots from role players like Robert Horry and Derek Fisher?  Guys who on paper were practically end of bench guys, but they hit the big shots when it counted.

In 2008, how many of those games were won due to big plays by guys like Posey, House, Powe and PJ Brown?  You know, back in the days before Rondo was the Rondo we know today.

When teams win games everybody gives credit to the stars, but so often it's the role players who do the little things (set good screens, rebound, play tough D, etc) who impact the game just as much.

All of these 'journeyman' comments add up to nothing, because the value of this team is not in each indivuduals superstar talent, it's in the talent of this unit as a whole.  The way eveybody plays together as a team.

Did the Piston's have more talent when they won their most recent championship than we do right now?  Was Wallace at his peak any better than KG now?  Was Hamilton any better then Pierce is now?  Was Billups impact the game any more on offense than Bradley and Lee do right now on defense?  Was Prince any more talented than Jeff Green when he plays as he did today?

The potential is there, that's all I'm saying.  We can still be competitive as we are, but if DA could pull of a trade that brings in a strong scorer (Reddick, Nayo, etc) then that could transform us into a pretty deadly team.   
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: norrellsul on January 27, 2013, 06:59:55 PM
We have to ride this thing out and evaluate what we have. If the C's end up having a better record with Rondo out, we need to trade Rondo for whatever value he has left. He might be the only player in the history of the NBA to average double digit assists for a season and make his teammates worse.

We can't trade Pierce or KG. They are the heart and soul of the Cs. They are the Celtics brand, our identity. Free agents are attracted to this identity and take pay cuts in order be part of something. That's what happened with free agents this summer and it's the only way you can compete in the NBA today.

On another note, I bet Pierce gets picked as the alternate for the all-star game, only appropriate.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: blink on January 27, 2013, 07:00:10 PM
So you are saying without Rondo they still have enough talent to win? Win what? Win the 8th seed in the playoffs? They have 4 journeyman guards, two aging, former superstars, a power forward who can't get out of his own way, a small forward who had a great game today, but who has underachieved his entire career, as PF/center who is always injured, and a rookie PF who has tremendous potential. A decent team, but nothing to write home about.

The big problem here is that everybody on this board grossly overvalues Rondo.

Everybody looks at Rondo's individual numbers as a reason why he is irreplacable - pointing to all of his assists and his triple doubles as reasons why we have no hope without him. 

The thing is Rondo just had two triple doubles in a row, and we lost both games.

When Rondo has huge games this season, it hasn't necessarilly resulted in us getting wins. We get wins when our other guys play well.  We get wins when we play hardcore, suffocating defense (like we did tonight) for an entire game.  We get wins when everybody on our team contributes offensively.

No I'm not saying we're better off without Rondo, but I don't necessarilly believe we are much (if any) worse without him either.

We beat Miami today in double OT without Rondo.  Let's be honest - do you believe this would have been a blowout if we had him?  I don't.  I believe the game would have been just as hard fought regardless, and we still would have struggled to win.

I believe that the defensive pressure of Bradley + Lee against Wade today was huge, and at least as valuable to us as any of Rondo's assists.

I believe that Jeff Green's defense on Lebron was the difference between him scoring 34 points and him scoring 45 points (in the 52 minutes he played).

I believe it was Green who took a huge charge on Wade near the end of the game, a play that could have been the difference in the game.

I believe it was a combination of KG and Pierce who hit the two key baskets down the stretch which essentially won us this game.

I believe it was Terry who calmly hit all of those clutch free throws to keep the stop Miami from building a lead.

I believe it was Barbosa who came out and put on a nice scoring run when it looked like Miami were about to run away with the game.

What I'm saying is Basketball is a team game.  Last season we went deep in the playoffs, and while KG and Rondo had a lot of huge games to take us there, just as many of those games were won with the defense and effort of Bradley, Dooling, Pietrus and Marquis. 

How many games did the Lakers win in the past off big clutch shots from role players like Robert Horry and Derek Fisher?  Guys who on paper were practically end of bench guys, but they hit the big shots when it counted.

In 2008, how many of those games were won due to big plays by guys like Posey, House, Powe and PJ Brown?  You know, back in the days before Rondo was the Rondo we know today.

When teams win games everybody gives credit to the stars, but so often it's the role players who do the little things (set good screens, rebound, play tough D, etc) who impact the game just as much.

All of these 'journeyman' comments add up to nothing, because the value of this team is not in each indivuduals superstar talent, it's in the talent of this unit as a whole.  The way eveybody plays together as a team.

Did the Piston's have more talent when they won their most recent championship than we do right now?  Was Wallace at his peak any better than KG now?  Was Hamilton any better then Pierce is now?  Was Billups impact the game any more on offense than Bradley and Lee do right now on defense?  Was Prince any more talented than Jeff Green when he plays as he did today?

The potential is there, that's all I'm saying.  We can still be competitive as we are, but if DA could pull of a trade that brings in a strong scorer (Reddick, Nayo, etc) then that could transform us into a pretty deadly team.

I think this is a great post.  I think the initial shock of losing Rondo for the season pushes everyone into blow it up mode.  I don't think DA will just throw a fire sale.  Did anyone see the game today?  We played well.  Maybe the best def. game of the year?

Blowing it up just doesn't make sense.  KG / PP are here for the rest of the year.  They might both hang it up after this year, just hard to tell.  I say lets get over the shock of losing Rajon, and see how the guys respond. 
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Geo123 on January 27, 2013, 07:02:09 PM
Quote
Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
GM Ainge on Celts direction: "You can't just philosophically say, 'We're going to do 'this.' You have to tell me what opportunities we have"

Doesn't say much, but sound like he is open to trading PP and KG if the right package comes along , which I assume is Expiring contracts and players on rookie deal or draft picks

Clippers and Spurs make some since if you can get back Jordan and/or Bledsoe from the clips ,or Splitter from the spurs.

There is no way the Clippers trade Bledsoe without having Paul signed, end of story.  Plus they aren't trading Jordan and Bledsoe for KG.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: ScottHow on January 27, 2013, 07:04:41 PM
Hopefully he is committed to blowing this up and going towards a youth movement. I'm ready for a lineup like...

Bradley
Lee?
Green
Sully
Melo

or at the least...

Bradley
Lee?
Green
Sully
KG
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Lucky17 on January 27, 2013, 07:08:11 PM
Pierce and KG represent some of the shortest-term financial obligations on the roster. To rebuild, you don't trade those contracts. You trade your longest-term contracts.

Toward that end, Green, Terry, Bass, and Lee would be the ones to go in a rebuild. Pierce and KG would retire after next season, and Ainge would go into the summer of 2014 with a rehabbed Rondo, Bradley, Sullinger, and Melo -- assuming those guys haven't been included as sweeteners to unload the ballast contracts of the others -- and a collection of accumulated draft picks and cap space that could be leveraged in trades to acquire more assets or signing impact free agents outright.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: JHTruth on January 27, 2013, 07:08:47 PM
Team will put up a valiant effort but go out in the playoffs with pride. Focus on getting Rondo healthy.

In a strange way it might be good for the team. The pressure is off to make short-term moves that will not help us in order to compete for a championship. KG and PP will retire soon and we will have cap space and young pieces to make big moves. I'd like to see Bradley and Sully start for the rest of the year to either build their trade value or determine they're pieces to a future contender. There's no one worth tanking for this year, but maybe next year with Wiggins and Parker probably there (both franchisers IMHO). Build Green's value. We'll be fine, just need to keep building our pantry..
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Who on January 27, 2013, 07:09:41 PM
Pierce and KG represent some of the shortest-term financial obligations on the roster. To rebuild, you don't trade those contracts. You trade your longest-term contracts.

Toward that end, Green, Terry, Bass, and Lee would be the ones to go in a rebuild. Pierce and KG would retire after next season, and Ainge would go into the summer of 2014 with a rehabbed Rondo, Bradley, Sullinger, and Melo -- assuming those guys haven't been included as sweeteners to unload the ballast contracts of the others -- and a collection of accumulated draft picks and cap space that could be leveraged in trades to acquire more assets or signing impact free agents outright.

Trade 'em all = KG and Pierce + the role players; Bass, Terry, Lee, Green.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: LooseCannon on January 27, 2013, 07:13:00 PM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

and why's that? the chance at a title is clearly over, what's the point of keeping them together ?

If you insist on trading them, I think you get better value if you wait until the off-season and teams have more flexibility to take on contracts of the size that KG and PP have.  I think that Bass, Green, Lee, and Terry will have higher trade value if you wait until they have a year left on their contracts.

I actually think that Rondo returning, a solid MLE free agent big, and a surprise contribution from Fab Melo, a rookie, or some minimum salary pick up would have this team a reasonable long shot contender.  It's very iffy, but it probably provides a better path to reloading than trying to get bad quickly, which means crafting a roster with talent similar to Orlando or Toronto this season by jettisoning as many serviceable players as you can.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: feckless on January 27, 2013, 07:23:27 PM
Paul and Kevin have earned a choice --stay here and play it out or go to a contender.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: galvinx10 on January 27, 2013, 07:40:55 PM
Pierce for Splitter and Stephen Jackson (expiring contract) works. I don't know if the Spurs would do that, but San Antonio is one of very few contenders that I would be okay with Pierce playing for
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: vinnie on January 27, 2013, 07:43:45 PM
So you are saying without Rondo they still have enough talent to win? Win what? Win the 8th seed in the playoffs? They have 4 journeyman guards, two aging, former superstars, a power forward who can't get out of his own way, a small forward who had a great game today, but who has underachieved his entire career, as PF/center who is always injured, and a rookie PF who has tremendous potential. A decent team, but nothing to write home about.

The big problem here is that everybody on this board grossly overvalues Rondo.

Everybody looks at Rondo's individual numbers as a reason why he is irreplacable - pointing to all of his assists and his triple doubles as reasons why we have no hope without him. 

The thing is Rondo just had two triple doubles in a row, and we lost both games.

When Rondo has huge games this season, it hasn't necessarilly resulted in us getting wins. We get wins when our other guys play well.  We get wins when we play hardcore, suffocating defense (like we did tonight) for an entire game.  We get wins when everybody on our team contributes offensively.

No I'm not saying we're better off without Rondo, but I don't necessarilly believe we are much (if any) worse without him either.

We beat Miami today in double OT without Rondo.  Let's be honest - do you believe this would have been a blowout if we had him?  I don't.  I believe the game would have been just as hard fought regardless, and we still would have struggled to win.

I believe that the defensive pressure of Bradley + Lee against Wade today was huge, and at least as valuable to us as any of Rondo's assists.

I believe that Jeff Green's defense on Lebron was the difference between him scoring 34 points and him scoring 45 points (in the 52 minutes he played).

I believe it was Green who took a huge charge on Wade near the end of the game, a play that could have been the difference in the game.

I believe it was a combination of KG and Pierce who hit the two key baskets down the stretch which essentially won us this game.

I believe it was Terry who calmly hit all of those clutch free throws to keep the stop Miami from building a lead.

I believe it was Barbosa who came out and put on a nice scoring run when it looked like Miami were about to run away with the game.

What I'm saying is Basketball is a team game.  Last season we went deep in the playoffs, and while KG and Rondo had a lot of huge games to take us there, just as many of those games were won with the defense and effort of Bradley, Dooling, Pietrus and Marquis. 

How many games did the Lakers win in the past off big clutch shots from role players like Robert Horry and Derek Fisher?  Guys who on paper were practically end of bench guys, but they hit the big shots when it counted.

In 2008, how many of those games were won due to big plays by guys like Posey, House, Powe and PJ Brown?  You know, back in the days before Rondo was the Rondo we know today.

When teams win games everybody gives credit to the stars, but so often it's the role players who do the little things (set good screens, rebound, play tough D, etc) who impact the game just as much.

All of these 'journeyman' comments add up to nothing, because the value of this team is not in each indivuduals superstar talent, it's in the talent of this unit as a whole.  The way eveybody plays together as a team.

Did the Piston's have more talent when they won their most recent championship than we do right now?  Was Wallace at his peak any better than KG now?  Was Hamilton any better then Pierce is now?  Was Billups impact the game any more on offense than Bradley and Lee do right now on defense?  Was Prince any more talented than Jeff Green when he plays as he did today?

The potential is there, that's all I'm saying.  We can still be competitive as we are, but if DA could pull of a trade that brings in a strong scorer (Reddick, Nayo, etc) then that could transform us into a pretty deadly team.

IT. WAS. ONE. GAME. They were not good enough to win it all before the injury and they are much less likely to win it after the injury. They should still hold on to the 8th slot in the playoffs, however.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: kgainez on January 27, 2013, 07:44:11 PM
As it was said in another thread by another poster:

With or without Rondo, we were looking pretty sleek at a championship run. We were 20-23 before today. Why blow it up now? Why not blow it up when were 14-16? Why not sign someone then?

We are down one guard. We have like a million on this roster who have been underperforming or underutilized. At the very least, DA should let them COMPETE and go down fighting.


I also don't think KG and PP will go easily. So...there's that.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: ausbacker on January 27, 2013, 07:47:13 PM
So you are saying without Rondo they still have enough talent to win? Win what? Win the 8th seed in the playoffs? They have 4 journeyman guards, two aging, former superstars, a power forward who can't get out of his own way, a small forward who had a great game today, but who has underachieved his entire career, as PF/center who is always injured, and a rookie PF who has tremendous potential. A decent team, but nothing to write home about.

The big problem here is that everybody on this board grossly overvalues Rondo.

Everybody looks at Rondo's individual numbers as a reason why he is irreplacable - pointing to all of his assists and his triple doubles as reasons why we have no hope without him. 

The thing is Rondo just had two triple doubles in a row, and we lost both games.

When Rondo has huge games this season, it hasn't necessarilly resulted in us getting wins. We get wins when our other guys play well.  We get wins when we play hardcore, suffocating defense (like we did tonight) for an entire game.  We get wins when everybody on our team contributes offensively.

No I'm not saying we're better off without Rondo, but I don't necessarilly believe we are much (if any) worse without him either.

We beat Miami today in double OT without Rondo.  Let's be honest - do you believe this would have been a blowout if we had him?  I don't.  I believe the game would have been just as hard fought regardless, and we still would have struggled to win.

I believe that the defensive pressure of Bradley + Lee against Wade today was huge, and at least as valuable to us as any of Rondo's assists.

I believe that Jeff Green's defense on Lebron was the difference between him scoring 34 points and him scoring 45 points (in the 52 minutes he played).

I believe it was Green who took a huge charge on Wade near the end of the game, a play that could have been the difference in the game.

I believe it was a combination of KG and Pierce who hit the two key baskets down the stretch which essentially won us this game.

I believe it was Terry who calmly hit all of those clutch free throws to keep the stop Miami from building a lead.

I believe it was Barbosa who came out and put on a nice scoring run when it looked like Miami were about to run away with the game.

What I'm saying is Basketball is a team game.  Last season we went deep in the playoffs, and while KG and Rondo had a lot of huge games to take us there, just as many of those games were won with the defense and effort of Bradley, Dooling, Pietrus and Marquis. 

How many games did the Lakers win in the past off big clutch shots from role players like Robert Horry and Derek Fisher?  Guys who on paper were practically end of bench guys, but they hit the big shots when it counted.

In 2008, how many of those games were won due to big plays by guys like Posey, House, Powe and PJ Brown?  You know, back in the days before Rondo was the Rondo we know today.

When teams win games everybody gives credit to the stars, but so often it's the role players who do the little things (set good screens, rebound, play tough D, etc) who impact the game just as much.

All of these 'journeyman' comments add up to nothing, because the value of this team is not in each indivuduals superstar talent, it's in the talent of this unit as a whole.  The way eveybody plays together as a team.

Did the Piston's have more talent when they won their most recent championship than we do right now?  Was Wallace at his peak any better than KG now?  Was Hamilton any better then Pierce is now?  Was Billups impact the game any more on offense than Bradley and Lee do right now on defense?  Was Prince any more talented than Jeff Green when he plays as he did today?

The potential is there, that's all I'm saying.  We can still be competitive as we are, but if DA could pull of a trade that brings in a strong scorer (Reddick, Nayo, etc) then that could transform us into a pretty deadly team.

I think this is a great post.  I think the initial shock of losing Rondo for the season pushes everyone into blow it up mode.  I don't think DA will just throw a fire sale.  Did anyone see the game today?  We played well.  Maybe the best def. game of the year?

Blowing it up just doesn't make sense.  KG / PP are here for the rest of the year.  They might both hang it up after this year, just hard to tell.  I say lets get over the shock of losing Rajon, and see how the guys respond.
It doesn't have to be a fire sale to start systematically building the new Celtics. Even the most optimistic C's fan has to realize it's highly unlikely that this team is going to be hanging any banners in the Garden.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 27, 2013, 07:53:33 PM
Another factor to consider.

Most people here insist that it's ludicrous to suggest that we could get better by losing one of our three best players (and yes I said "one of" our best players - I still believe that KG and Pierce are more critical to this team's efforts than Rondo).

Think about this though - what happens to the Knicks when Amare sits out?  Before Carmello joined the Knicks Amare was averaging about 26 points, 9 rebounds and 2 blocks for that team while also having one of the top FG% in the league.  His ability to produce on a box score is undeniable, yet when he is on the court with Melo the Knicks are a significantly worse team.

This does not by any means suggest Amare is a below average player - the guy is still one of the best PF's in the league when he's healthy.  It just means that his skill set, as good as it is, doesn't mesh will with the lineups he tends to find himself in. He doesn't complement the other guys on the team.

Ironically, if you bring him to Boston (assuming he was healthy) I think he'd be a huge boost to us because we could actually use an elite scorer who needs the ball in his hands to be effective.  It allow us to take pressure of Pierce and KG, while KG would help to cover for Amare's defensive deficiencies and the two of them are both good rebounding bigs.  In fact a front line of KG/Amare/Piece would be pretty [dang] dominant.

The point I'm making here is that an individuals greatness (and Rondo IS a great player) doesn't necessarilly lead to team greatness.  On a team like the Knicks that is full of shooters/scorers, Rondo would probably be a perfect fit.  He wouldn't be needed so much to score, and his limited range would be less of a factor because he has so many other shooters around him.  He could run the offense all day long and log up assists like they were going out of fasion, and he would be benefiting the team in the process.

For us because our team is so offensively deficient, we really need another big time scoring threat.  Rondo is really not a scorer, and I think that hurts us a little when he's out there.  I don't think it was as big an issue in previous years because we always had the trio of Ray, Pierce and KG who could all be depended on to put up 15 to 20 points every night, so Rondo could just sit back and orchestrate things.

This season I just don't think we have had that luxury.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: danglertx on January 27, 2013, 07:54:12 PM
Send Pierce to the mavs for Mayo and Kaveman

And what would that do for us exactly?  There is the small chance we end up with nobody and save $4mil on the cap.  We are still over the cap though and that is just wasted money.  I guess if your goal is to save the owners some cash you should call about the GM job.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 27, 2013, 07:54:23 PM
Another factor to consider.

Most people here insist that it's ludicrous to suggest that we could get better by losing one of our three best players (and yes I said "one of" our best players - I still believe that KG and Pierce are more critical to this team's efforts than Rondo).

Think about this though - what happens to the Knicks when Amare sits out?  Before Carmello joined the Knicks Amare was averaging about 26 points, 9 rebounds and 2 blocks for that team while also having one of the top FG% in the league.  His ability to produce on a box score is undeniable, yet when he is on the court with Melo the Knicks are a significantly worse team.

This does not by any means suggest Amare is a below average player - the guy is still one of the best PF's in the league when he's healthy.  It just means that his skill set, as good as it is, doesn't mesh will with the lineups he tends to find himself in. He doesn't complement the other guys on the team.

Ironically, if you bring him to Boston (assuming he was healthy) I think he'd be a huge boost to us because we could actually use an elite scorer who needs the ball in his hands to be effective.  It allow us to take pressure of Pierce and KG, while KG would help to cover for Amare's defensive deficiencies and the two of them are both good rebounding bigs.  In fact a front line of KG/Amare/Piece would be pretty [dang] dominant.

The point I'm making here is that an individuals greatness (and Rondo IS a great player) doesn't necessarilly lead to team greatness.  On a team like the Knicks that is full of shooters/scorers, Rondo would probably be a perfect fit.  He wouldn't be needed so much to score, and his limited range would be less of a factor because he has so many other shooters around him.  He could run the offense all day long and log up assists like they were going out of fasion, and he would be benefiting the team in the process.

For us because our team is so offensively deficient, we really need another big time scoring threat.  Rondo is really not a scorer, and I think that hurts us a little when he's out there.  I don't think it was as big an issue in previous years because we always had the trio of Ray, Pierce and KG who could all be depended on to put up 15 to 20 points every night, so Rondo could just sit back and orchestrate things.

This season I just don't think we have had that luxury.

We CAN win without Rondo.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 27, 2013, 08:00:41 PM
Even the most optimistic C's fan has to realize it's highly unlikely that this team is going to be hanging any banners in the Garden.

I agree it's highly unlikely, but it's not impossible.

At the same time, our chance of competing this season is zero if we blow trade out KG and Pierce, and probably will be zero for the next 5 years.

As we are now we still have a fighting chance.  We still have the talent to make the playoffs, and the East is pretty weak - we are very capable of grinding past most of the teams (Indiana, Milwalkee, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Chicago) in a 7 game series just as we did past Philly and Atlanta last year.

Today proved we are CAPABLE of beating Miami if we face them without Rondo.  Remember that we won today with our defense and effort - our offense was actually pretty unspectacular, and we didn't really play outstanding basketball...we just won with pure effort and will.  Same as last season's approach, and last season that almost took us to the finals.

What if we lost to Atlanta - could they have beaten Philly and Miami?  Who knows.  If we lost to Philly, maybe they would have grinded out a win against Miami and made the finals.  Neither of those teams were considered contenders, but in the playoffs any team can win if they just give it all they have. 

Miami struggled past Indiana and Past us, then they pretty convincingly beat the Thunder..so no telling what we could do if we get past Miami and/or NY in the East.   
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: rondohondo on January 27, 2013, 08:08:08 PM
Even the most optimistic C's fan has to realize it's highly unlikely that this team is going to be hanging any banners in the Garden.

I agree it's highly unlikely, but it's not impossible.

At the same time, our chance of competing this season is zero if we blow trade out KG and Pierce, and probably will be zero for the next 5 years.

As we are now we still have a fighting chance.  We still have the talent to make the playoffs, and the East is pretty weak - we are very capable of grinding past most of the teams (Indiana, Milwalkee, Atlanta, Brooklyn, Chicago) in a 7 game series just as we did past Philly and Atlanta last year.

Today proved we are CAPABLE of beating Miami if we face them without Rondo.  Remember that we won today with our defense and effort - our offense was actually pretty unspectacular, and we didn't really play outstanding basketball...we just won with pure effort and will.  Same as last season's approach, and last season that almost took us to the finals.

What if we lost to Atlanta - could they have beaten Philly and Miami?  Who knows.  If we lost to Philly, maybe they would have grinded out a win against Miami and made the finals.  Neither of those teams were considered contenders, but in the playoffs any team can win if they just give it all they have. 

Miami struggled past Indiana and Past us, then they pretty convincingly beat the Thunder..so no telling what we could do if we get past Miami and/or NY in the East.   

Miami struggled against Indiana and Boston last year because they were without their 3rd best player(bosh) and relying heavily on two top 10 players in their prime.

The c's have now lost their best or second best player and now will be relying on 35 and 36 year old guys who have a hard time of playing more than 30 mins a night.

And you expect us to compete cause"it's not impossible" ?

Right....
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 27, 2013, 08:13:45 PM
Makes sense. As far as blowing things up, there is nothing to blow up. 8th seed with Rondo and maybe they can hold on to the 8th seed without him. The rebuilding starts now or in the offseason, but there is nothing left to blow up.

But you know what is meant by the term 'blow-up' as it pertains to this team.  Even though you decided long ago that this team is not championship caliber, there are many who believed that this team could be dangerous again in the playoffs.  True or not true doesn't really matter.  Bottom line is that a blow-up means changing the face(s) of this franchise by trading PP and/or KG. 

Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 27, 2013, 08:14:58 PM
Send kg to the thunder and pierce to the clippers.

for Durant and Griffin?  ;D
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BballTim on January 27, 2013, 08:23:35 PM

The point I'm making here is that an individuals greatness (and Rondo IS a great player) doesn't necessarilly lead to team greatness.  On a team like the Knicks that is full of shooters/scorers, Rondo would probably be a perfect fit.  He wouldn't be needed so much to score, and his limited range would be less of a factor because he has so many other shooters around him.  He could run the offense all day long and log up assists like they were going out of fasion, and he would be benefiting the team in the process.


  For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BballTim on January 27, 2013, 08:33:18 PM

Did the Piston's have more talent when they won their most recent championship than we do right now?  Was Wallace at his peak any better than KG now?  Was Hamilton any better then Pierce is now?  Was Billups impact the game any more on offense than Bradley and Lee do right now on defense?  Was Prince any more talented than Jeff Green when he plays as he did today?


  Did you actually watch that Pistons team play?
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: indeedproceed on January 27, 2013, 08:44:00 PM
I think there is relatively zero chance Rondo is moved now. Pierce, Green, anyone aside from Garnett, Bradley, and Sullinger...well maybe that's a different story.

Honestly, Im skeptical that we do a major move, even now. It would require Garnett asking for a trade, or Pierce getting expirings and a prospect/pick in return. Garnett and Pierce dont strike me as guys that bail on a sinking ship just because its sinking. Not at their age anyways.

Now that said,!I hope Ainge trades for Lowry.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 27, 2013, 08:45:03 PM

Did the Piston's have more talent when they won their most recent championship than we do right now?  Was Wallace at his peak any better than KG now?  Was Hamilton any better then Pierce is now?  Was Billups impact the game any more on offense than Bradley and Lee do right now on defense?  Was Prince any more talented than Jeff Green when he plays as he did today?


  Did you actually watch that Pistons team play?

Highly doubtful.

I think there is relatively zero chance Rondo is moved now. Pierce, Green, anyone aside from Garnett, Bradley, and Sullinger...well maybe that's a different story.

Honestly, Im skeptical that we do a major move, even now. It would require Garnett asking for a trade, or Pierce getting expirings and a prospect/pick in return. Garnett and Pierce dont strike me as guys that bail on a sinking ship just because its sinking. Not at their age anyways.

Now that said,!I hope Ainge trades for Lowry.

No way Rondo gets moved now.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Boris Badenov on January 27, 2013, 09:00:39 PM
I'm kind of relieved, to be honest.

Not saying I wanted this to happen, not at all.

But in a way I was dreading the rest of this season. I was afraid Danny would trade one or two of our few valuable assets (Sully, Bradley, picks, or some combination) for another aging vet on a bad contract, for the mythical "last run."

Then, we'd end up getting no farther than the conference finals - again - and have traded away our future for just another beatdown at the hands of the Heat.

Now we can hang on to everyone, have modest expectations for the rest of this year, and get on to the business of rebuilding.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: celticsleyte on January 27, 2013, 09:49:22 PM
I kind of like to keep PP and KG to mentor the incoming players.  But maybe one or the other can do the job.  If a good enough offer comes in you need to consider it.  I would certainly consult the captain that he would be ok with the trade and KG has a no trade clause so obviously he has to in agreement before we can move him.

PP might turn the clippers into true contenders and its his hometown so just maybe they are a fit?

I am also fine with keeping both guys. I would love to unload Bass.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: triboy16f on January 27, 2013, 09:53:15 PM
Lets put it this way. If this team without Rondo, plays better than 500, which i'm confident we will, there is no reason for Ainge to do anything.

If we keep like the way we did before tonights win, with rondo or not, we needed to make some moves.

Nothing will happen also until trade deadline day. I hope we play good and nothing happens
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 27, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?

If you look at our roster we actually have a number of capable offensive players - Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Brandon Bass, Jason Terry, Leandro Barbosa, Courtney Lee, Chris Wilcox, Jeff Green.  That may not be the most stacked lineup in the league, but on paper it's right up there in probably the top 5 or 10 in terms of scoring depth. 

Now a great PG is supposed to make everybody around him better - think Stockton, Chris Paul, Jason Kidd.  Does Rondo really do that?  Lets see..

* Bass is having the worst season of his career
* Terry (a great shooter of this generation) is struggling
* Lee struggled at first, and has been up and down since
* Jeff Green doesn't look comfortable at all on offense 
* Pierce is shooting the lowest percentage since 2008
* KG is shooting the lowest percentage since 2008
* Barbosa pretty much creates all his own offense

If Rondo is just a great pure PG, why hasn't he been able to get KG and Pierce easy shots?  Why hasn't he been able to get the new guys comfortable playing in the new system?

The announcers during today's game quoted Terry saying that he's strugglng because he's still not used to where he needs to be on plays.  If Rondo is so good at making teammates better, should't he be getting Terry the ball in his hot spots, where he's most comfortable?

If Rondo makes us SO much better with his assists, then why is it that this team, with a very reasoanble amount of offensive talent, is one of the worst offensive teams in the NBA?

If Rondo is so critical to this team, then why is his net on/off rating a -1.3 (according to NBA.com advanced stats)?

Why did we lost the last two games, even through Rondo recorded triple doubles in both?  How come today when Pierce recorded a triple double, we won the game against the best team in the East? 

I love Rondo as a player, but I'm just not convinced that he is the absolutely critical piece to this team everybody believes he is.

So aside from objective opinion, quoting of box scores and pure fanboyism, can anybody here actually produce some type of statistical correlation between Rondo playing, and us winning?

Let me help with some words quoted from an NBA.com article:

Quote
As good as Rondo has been, keep this in mind: Even with him this season, the Celtics ranked 23rd in the NBA in offensive effiency entering Sunday.
 
Rondo entered Sunday ranked 49th in PER among players (and 16th among guards) who have played at least 3,000 minutes in the last four seasons. He ranked tied for 54th overall this season among those with at least 500 minutes played.
 
Celtics With Rajon Rondo
This Season - Per 48 Minutes
 
| Stat    | On Court | Off Court |
| FG %    |  45.9    |   45.2    |
| 3PT%    |  34.7    |   30.6    |
| Ass     |  23.5    |   20.4    |
| Pts     |  93.8    |   90.7    |
| Opp Pts |  95.7    |   90.8    |
 
Entering Sunday

The Celtics are averaging 93.8 points with Rondo on the court this season, and 90.7 points with him off the court. But they're considerably better in terms of what they allow, as noted in the chart on the right.
 
They’ve been able to survive his absence in the past.

The Celtics are 145-95 with Rondo over the last four seasons, but they are also 22-13 without him. He's previously missed as many as 14 games in a season.
 
In that span, they've been a plus-2.9 points per 48 minutes with him on the floor, but plus-4.4 points with him off the floor.

For those who are challenged with a calculator, the above stats show that we have a win record of 0.604 with Rondo, and a record of 0.628 without him.

Yes, not only does Rondo have a negative on/off rating, but we also have a better winning record when he's NOT playing than we do when he is. 

So please, somebody give me anything at all which proves that we are a significantly worse team without Rondo.  I'd love to have a reason to believe Rondo's league leading assiss and triple doubles mean something, but I just don't see it.

Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 27, 2013, 10:09:50 PM
For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?

If you look at our roster we actually have a number of capable offensive players - Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Brandon Bass, Jason Terry, Leandro Barbosa, Courtney Lee, Chris Wilcox, Jeff Green.  That may not be the most stacked lineup in the league, but on paper it's right up there in probably the top 5 or 10 in terms of scoring depth. 

Now a great PG is supposed to make everybody around him better - think Stockton, Chris Paul, Jason Kidd.  Does Rondo really do that?  Lets see..

* Bass is having the worst season of his career
* Terry (a great shooter of this generation) is struggling
* Lee struggled at first, and has been up and down since
* Jeff Green doesn't look comfortable at all on offense 
* Pierce is shooting the lowest percentage since 2008
* KG is shooting the lowest percentage since 2008
* Barbosa pretty much creates all his own offense

If Rondo is just a great pure PG, why hasn't he been able to get KG and Pierce easy shots?  Why hasn't he been able to get the new guys comfortable playing in the new system?

The announcers during today's game quoted Terry saying that he's strugglng because he's still not used to where he needs to be on plays.  If Rondo is so good at making teammates better, should't he be getting Terry the ball in his hot spots, where he's most comfortable?

If Rondo makes us SO much better with his assists, then why is it that this team, with a very reasoanble amount of offensive talent, is one of the worst offensive teams in the NBA?

If Rondo is so critical to this team, then why is his net on/off rating a -1.3 (according to NBA.com advanced stats)?

Why did we lost the last two games, even through Rondo recorded triple doubles in both?  How come today when Pierce recorded a triple double, we won the game against the best team in the East? 

I love Rondo as a player, but I'm just not convinced that he is the absolutely critical piece to this team everybody believes he is.

So aside from objective opinion, quoting of box scores and pure fanboyism, can anybody here actually produce some type of statistical correlation between Rondo playing, and us winning?

Let me help with some words quoted from an NBA.com article:

Quote
As good as Rondo has been, keep this in mind: Even with him this season, the Celtics ranked 23rd in the NBA in offensive effiency entering Sunday.
 
Rondo entered Sunday ranked 49th in PER among players (and 16th among guards) who have played at least 3,000 minutes in the last four seasons. He ranked tied for 54th overall this season among those with at least 500 minutes played.
 
Celtics With Rajon Rondo
This Season - Per 48 Minutes
 
| Stat    | On Court | Off Court |
| FG %    |  45.9    |   45.2    |
| 3PT%    |  34.7    |   30.6    |
| Ass     |  23.5    |   20.4    |
| Pts     |  93.8    |   90.7    |
| Opp Pts |  95.7    |   90.8    |
 
Entering Sunday

The Celtics are averaging 93.8 points with Rondo on the court this season, and 90.7 points with him off the court. But they're considerably better in terms of what they allow, as noted in the chart on the right.
 
They’ve been able to survive his absence in the past.

The Celtics are 145-95 with Rondo over the last four seasons, but they are also 22-13 without him. He's previously missed as many as 14 games in a season.
 
In that span, they've been a plus-2.9 points per 48 minutes with him on the floor, but plus-4.4 points with him off the floor.

For those who are challenged with a calculator, the above stats show that we have a win record of 0.604 with Rondo, and a record of 0.628 without him.

Yes, not only does Rondo have a negative on/off rating, but we also have a better winning record when he's NOT playing than we do when he is. 

So please, somebody give me anything at all which proves that we are a significantly worse team without Rondo.  I'd love to have a reason to believe Rondo's league leading assiss and triple doubles mean something, but I just don't see it.

starting to wonder the same thing. as a matter of fact for quite some time now.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Who on January 27, 2013, 10:12:35 PM
The team creates more good to high percentage shot attempts in the game with Rondo on the court. The team takes more low to medium percentage shot attempts when Rondo is unavailable.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: WeMadeIt17 on January 27, 2013, 10:19:34 PM
People are nuts if you think the clippers are going to give up Deandre Jordan for Pierce. I don't want to trade Pierce or KG for the record. But c'mon you really think the clipper would send out a 7 footer who fits perfectly with what they are doing? Who plays the 5 for them if they send him out. Putting in Pierce and taking away Jordan is a step sideways. But as the rest of this thread goes. I think it would be distasteful to trade KG or Paul at this point. We are the 8th seed and have room to improve. If we could somehow send Bass on his way and get back either A. A decent PG like Kyle lowery. Or B. Send him out for a center like Gortat. Then I think this team could actually be in business.

Yes Rondo is a huge part of this lineup but we could go with a old school lineup of something like

Bradley
Lee
Pierce
KG
Gortat

That team is tough on defense, and then you have guys like Sully,Green,Terry,and Barbosa off the bench. That could give team fits.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Eris on January 27, 2013, 10:22:12 PM
I have zero expectation of Danny Ainge blowing this up.

I fully expect Ainge to ride this out.
More or less I agree with you but the Cs still need another big man. Play Wilcox, bring Melo up and play him. If that's not enough and the team isn't winning Danny can try to make a deal.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: greenpride32 on January 27, 2013, 10:22:32 PM
Look at how much life our offense had today without Rondo.  With in in the lineup it's just a stagnant half court set where he dribbles the ball for 10-15 seconds, makes one pass, and the possession is over.  This is how he racks up the majority of his assists (they aren't all ESPN highlight alley oops to KG, or behind the back passes). 
Without him, the players just play natural basketball.  It's a dynamic game; you have to adjust and take what's given to you.  They didn't just stand around today and watch Rondo dribble top of the key. 
Rondo plays hard and he can fill up a stat sheet no question, but he's not a great team player.  Just look at 2 triple doubles, and two losses.  Pierce just played hard today and got his triple double; he didn't just hang around the rim to get that 10th board.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: cltc5 on January 27, 2013, 10:33:40 PM
Look at how much life our offense had today without Rondo.  With in in the lineup it's just a stagnant half court set where he dribbles the ball for 10-15 seconds, makes one pass, and the possession is over.  This is how he racks up the majority of his assists (they aren't all ESPN highlight alley oops to KG, or behind the back passes). 
Without him, the players just play natural basketball.  It's a dynamic game; you have to adjust and take what's given to you.  They didn't just stand around today and watch Rondo dribble top of the key. 
Rondo plays hard and he can fill up a stat sheet no question, but he's not a great team player.  Just look at 2 triple doubles, and two losses.  Pierce just played hard today and got his triple double; he didn't just hang around the rim to get that 10th board.


couldnt agree more.  Hate to admit it but we may be a better team without him. 
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: rondohondo on January 27, 2013, 10:45:44 PM
Ainge sounds pretty skeptical about the c's chances without Rondo

OK, Danny, now what?
Quote
Danny Ainge, the architect of the Boston Celtics' roster, said he will "evaluate in the next couple of days" how to fill the cavernous void left by Rajon Rondo, who tore his ACL in a game against the Atlanta Hawks on Friday and is done for the season.
Quote
"Barbosa has been clamoring for minutes, and every time he's gotten them he's done good things," Ainge said. "So this is an opportunity for him."

Former Celtics point guard Keyon Dooling, who remains with the team in a player development role, said he's in "good human shape" but about "three weeks away" from basketball shape. Asked if he'd consider a comeback, Dooling said, "I would do anything for Doc and Danny."

Ainge quickly ruled out that possibility moments after the Celtics beat the Miami Heat in double overtime.

Quote
"We've had success playing without Rajon during short periods of time, but we've never had to play without him during long periods of time," Ainge said. "It should be an interesting test for us. Not a test we wanted. Frankly, I'm worried about that test."

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8888278/danny-ainge-worried-boston-celtics-rajon-rondo

so IMO basically the c's have 3 weeks to prove to danny they can play at a high level, or else he will likely trade off some long term contracts if he can get decent value

Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: TripleOT on January 27, 2013, 10:49:47 PM
If Ainge wants to blow the team up:

KG to Chicago for a package that includes Taj Gibson and Nicola Mirotic

Pierce to Golden State for Harrison Barnes, Richard Jefferson and Brandon Rush (injured).  Boston takes on RJ's contract, which will expire after next season at $10m, and get a promising young Pierce replacement in Barnes. Golden State gets a go to wing with championship experience at almost the same price of RJ and the injured Rush this year and next. They can play Draymond Green behind Pierce and not miss a beat.

I'm not saying either GS or Chicago would do these deals, but if they're serious about making title runs this year and next, they should.   Boston gets two promising young starters, in Gibson and Barnes, and a possible all star in Mirotic when he finally gets to the NBA in 2014.     
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: OsirusCeltics on January 27, 2013, 10:52:31 PM
Look at how much life our offense had today without Rondo.  With in in the lineup it's just a stagnant half court set where he dribbles the ball for 10-15 seconds, makes one pass, and the possession is over.  This is how he racks up the majority of his assists (they aren't all ESPN highlight alley oops to KG, or behind the back passes). 
Without him, the players just play natural basketball.  It's a dynamic game; you have to adjust and take what's given to you.  They didn't just stand around today and watch Rondo dribble top of the key. 
Rondo plays hard and he can fill up a stat sheet no question, but he's not a great team player.  Just look at 2 triple doubles, and two losses.  Pierce just played hard today and got his triple double; he didn't just hang around the rim to get that 10th board.


couldnt agree more.  Hate to admit it but we may be a better team without him.

Yes also agree. I feel Celtics need to trade for a near-star player and they are contenders again
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BballTim on January 27, 2013, 10:57:36 PM
Look at how much life our offense had today without Rondo.  With in in the lineup it's just a stagnant half court set where he dribbles the ball for 10-15 seconds, makes one pass, and the possession is over.  This is how he racks up the majority of his assists (they aren't all ESPN highlight alley oops to KG, or behind the back passes). 
Without him, the players just play natural basketball.  It's a dynamic game; you have to adjust and take what's given to you.  They didn't just stand around today and watch Rondo dribble top of the key. 
Rondo plays hard and he can fill up a stat sheet no question, but he's not a great team player.  Just look at 2 triple doubles, and two losses.  Pierce just played hard today and got his triple double; he didn't just hang around the rim to get that 10th board.

  Once again we have a below average offensive game without Rondo and people talk about how great it looked. And if you're going to use our record in games where Rondo has a triple double as an indication of whether he's a great team player, look at the rest of them as well. We aren't 0-2 when Rondo has triple doubles, we're 23-5.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: jdz101 on January 27, 2013, 11:01:22 PM
Send Pierce to the mavs for Mayo and Kaveman

He deserves a chance at a ring. Send him to warriors with a returning bogut or to the clippers.

May aswell trade pierce for a bunch of bananas. That's about how useful bogut is. At least you get the potassium with the bananas.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Casperian on January 27, 2013, 11:18:02 PM
Makes sense. As far as blowing things up, there is nothing to blow up. 8th seed with Rondo and maybe they can hold on to the 8th seed without him. The rebuilding starts now or in the offseason, but there is nothing left to blow up.

But you know what is meant by the term 'blow-up' as it pertains to this team.  Even though you decided long ago that this team is not championship caliber, there are many who believed that this team could be dangerous again in the playoffs.  True or not true doesn't really matter.  Bottom line is that a blow-up means changing the face(s) of this franchise by trading PP and/or KG.

Vinnie didn´t believe we´re championship caliber, but others believed we could be "dangerous" in the playoffs?

These things aren´t mutually exclusive!
I believed we could be "dangerous" in the playoffs. I also believed us winning a champoinship was as likely as Kobe in Green.

These guys are fighters, and they played like fighters, and that´s also why they even made it to the ECF. However, contrary to popular belief, fighting isn´t everything. We lack top-class talent.

I swear, there are so many logical fallacies at work in these kind of threads, it´s hard just to read through them.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: blink on January 27, 2013, 11:29:57 PM
Look at how much life our offense had today without Rondo.  With in in the lineup it's just a stagnant half court set where he dribbles the ball for 10-15 seconds, makes one pass, and the possession is over.  This is how he racks up the majority of his assists (they aren't all ESPN highlight alley oops to KG, or behind the back passes). 
Without him, the players just play natural basketball.  It's a dynamic game; you have to adjust and take what's given to you.  They didn't just stand around today and watch Rondo dribble top of the key. 
Rondo plays hard and he can fill up a stat sheet no question, but he's not a great team player.  Just look at 2 triple doubles, and two losses.  Pierce just played hard today and got his triple double; he didn't just hang around the rim to get that 10th board.

  Once again we have a below average offensive game without Rondo and people talk about how great it looked. And if you're going to use our record in games where Rondo has a triple double as an indication of whether he's a great team player, look at the rest of them as well. We aren't 0-2 when Rondo has triple doubles, we're 23-5.

I think there is a lot of truth to this.  We had pretty much our best def game of the year, but had to really fight / scrape out a really tough win. 

I just am getting tired of the double standard with Rondo.  RR gets a triple double and he is stat padding, PP gets one and he had a great overall game.  It makes no sense.  does everyone not want RR to score, rebound and get assists?

Rondo or no Rondo if we can't get higher % shots or improve our fg % it is going to be hard to get Wins. Hard to point to this as a typical game as well.  KG played 45 min and PP played 49 min just getting by on fumes at the end.  I mean we had no choice, but my point is we can't expect this type of mins / effort out of the old guys every night.  They won't make it to the playoffs.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BballTim on January 27, 2013, 11:37:05 PM
For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?


  In the last 2 seasons we're 8-3 when Rondo has a triple double, 52-47 when he doesn't.

  Likewise, we're 40-26 on his double figure assist nights, 20-24 on all other nights.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: TripleOT on January 27, 2013, 11:39:09 PM
For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?


  In the last 2 seasons we're 8-3 when Rondo has a triple double, 52-47 when he doesn't.

  Likewise, we're 40-26 on his double figure assist nights, 20-24 on all other nights.

FWIW, the past four years, the Cs have won the same percentage of games, around 60%, with or without Rondo.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: vinnie on January 27, 2013, 11:42:45 PM
For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?


  In the last 2 seasons we're 8-3 when Rondo has a triple double, 52-47 when he doesn't.

  Likewise, we're 40-26 on his double figure assist nights, 20-24 on all other nights.

FWIW, the past four years, the Cs have won the same percentage of games, around 60%, with or without Rondo.

But, they have never played an extended period of time without Rondo. This will be the first time. They have 38 games left. My guess is they go 22-16, end up in the 8th slot, and lose in the first round. Nothing to be ashamed of without the starting point guard for the NBA East all star team.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: PhoSita on January 28, 2013, 12:05:02 AM
For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?


  In the last 2 seasons we're 8-3 when Rondo has a triple double, 52-47 when he doesn't.

  Likewise, we're 40-26 on his double figure assist nights, 20-24 on all other nights.

FWIW, the past four years, the Cs have won the same percentage of games, around 60%, with or without Rondo.

But, they have never played an extended period of time without Rondo. This will be the first time. They have 38 games left. My guess is they go 22-16, end up in the 8th slot, and lose in the first round. Nothing to be ashamed of without the starting point guard for the NBA East all star team.

I haven't looked at the strength of schedule, honestly 22-16 seems pretty optimistic.

I think the best case scenario (rally together etc) would be 19-19 or 20-18.  But when you consider that even WITH Rondo this team was 3 games under .500 prior to the game against the Heat, the outlook seems less rosy.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they go 17-21 or 16-22.  And that's assuming Danny doesn't even make minor cap-saving trades around the deadline since the team isn't contending anymore (e.g. shipping off Terry / Bass for expirings).
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: ejk3489 on January 28, 2013, 12:15:26 AM
For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

For those who are challenged with a calculator, the above stats show that we have a win record of 0.604 with Rondo, and a record of 0.628 without him.

Yes, not only does Rondo have a negative on/off rating, but we also have a better winning record when he's NOT playing than we do when he is. 

So please, somebody give me anything at all which proves that we are a significantly worse team without Rondo.  I'd love to have a reason to believe Rondo's league leading assiss and triple doubles mean something, but I just don't see it.

Well if you're judging his impact based off of his on court/off court stats, he's clearly made a difference in the past two years...

2011-12:
On:  .502 eFG% 20.3ORB% 68.6AST% 15.3TOV% 104.4Ortg
Off: .484 eFG% 18.8ORB% 62.7AST% 18.3TOV% 96.7Ortg  +7.7

2011-12 playoffs:
On:  .476 eFG% 20.5ORB% 59AST% 14.2TOV% 102.2Ortg
Off: .428 eFG% 18ORB%   56AST% 16.8TOV% 92.3Ortg  +9.9
 
2010-11:
On:  .537 eFG% 67.1AST% 15.7TOV% 110.1Ortg
Off: .487 eFG% 56.3AST% 17TOV%   100.8Ortg  +9.3

2010-11 playoffs:
On:  .533 eFG% 24.9ORB% 61.6 AST% 109.7Ortg
Off: .441 eFG% 19.2ORB% 45.8 AST% 92.1Ortg +17.6

So in over 5600 minutes where Rondo was on the court versus the 2800 where he was off of it, the Celtics shot the ball at a higher percentage, were a better offensive rebounding team, assited the ball at a higher rate, turned the ball over less, and produced more points than their opponent.

It hasn't been true much this season, mostly due to his play over the last month, but it's clear that we are a better team with Rondo on the court. It seems silly to even debate this...
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 12:21:50 AM
For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?


  In the last 2 seasons we're 8-3 when Rondo has a triple double, 52-47 when he doesn't.

  Likewise, we're 40-26 on his double figure assist nights, 20-24 on all other nights.

FWIW, the past four years, the Cs have won the same percentage of games, around 60%, with or without Rondo.

  I think you'll find that since KG joined the team we've played almost as well without him as with him. Whatever your point about Rondo, it would seem to apply to KG as well.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 12:34:18 AM
Yes, not only does Rondo have a negative on/off rating, but we also have a better winning record when he's NOT playing than we do when he is. 

  By the way, since you're using on/off numbers to determine a player's value to the team, out of the big 4 in the playoffs over the last 4 years Rondo's on/off numbers look like they're the best 3 times and 2nd best once.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: LooseCannon on January 28, 2013, 12:58:04 AM
so IMO basically the c's have 3 weeks to prove to danny they can play at a high level, or else he will likely trade off some long term contracts if he can get decent value

It just seems so unlikely to me that he can get decent value mid-season.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 28, 2013, 02:49:19 AM
For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?


  In the last 2 seasons we're 8-3 when Rondo has a triple double, 52-47 when he doesn't.

  Likewise, we're 40-26 on his double figure assist nights, 20-24 on all other nights.

Yet we have a better win record without him than with him?
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: JHTruth on January 28, 2013, 02:59:38 AM
For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?

If you look at our roster we actually have a number of capable offensive players - Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Brandon Bass, Jason Terry, Leandro Barbosa, Courtney Lee, Chris Wilcox, Jeff Green.  That may not be the most stacked lineup in the league, but on paper it's right up there in probably the top 5 or 10 in terms of scoring depth. 

Now a great PG is supposed to make everybody around him better - think Stockton, Chris Paul, Jason Kidd.  Does Rondo really do that?  Lets see..

* Bass is having the worst season of his career
* Terry (a great shooter of this generation) is struggling
* Lee struggled at first, and has been up and down since
* Jeff Green doesn't look comfortable at all on offense 
* Pierce is shooting the lowest percentage since 2008
* KG is shooting the lowest percentage since 2008
* Barbosa pretty much creates all his own offense

If Rondo is just a great pure PG, why hasn't he been able to get KG and Pierce easy shots?  Why hasn't he been able to get the new guys comfortable playing in the new system?

The announcers during today's game quoted Terry saying that he's strugglng because he's still not used to where he needs to be on plays.  If Rondo is so good at making teammates better, should't he be getting Terry the ball in his hot spots, where he's most comfortable?

If Rondo makes us SO much better with his assists, then why is it that this team, with a very reasoanble amount of offensive talent, is one of the worst offensive teams in the NBA?

If Rondo is so critical to this team, then why is his net on/off rating a -1.3 (according to NBA.com advanced stats)?

Why did we lost the last two games, even through Rondo recorded triple doubles in both?  How come today when Pierce recorded a triple double, we won the game against the best team in the East? 

I love Rondo as a player, but I'm just not convinced that he is the absolutely critical piece to this team everybody believes he is.

So aside from objective opinion, quoting of box scores and pure fanboyism, can anybody here actually produce some type of statistical correlation between Rondo playing, and us winning?

Let me help with some words quoted from an NBA.com article:

Quote
As good as Rondo has been, keep this in mind: Even with him this season, the Celtics ranked 23rd in the NBA in offensive effiency entering Sunday.
 
Rondo entered Sunday ranked 49th in PER among players (and 16th among guards) who have played at least 3,000 minutes in the last four seasons. He ranked tied for 54th overall this season among those with at least 500 minutes played.
 
Celtics With Rajon Rondo
This Season - Per 48 Minutes
 
| Stat    | On Court | Off Court |
| FG %    |  45.9    |   45.2    |
| 3PT%    |  34.7    |   30.6    |
| Ass     |  23.5    |   20.4    |
| Pts     |  93.8    |   90.7    |
| Opp Pts |  95.7    |   90.8    |
 
Entering Sunday

The Celtics are averaging 93.8 points with Rondo on the court this season, and 90.7 points with him off the court. But they're considerably better in terms of what they allow, as noted in the chart on the right.
 
They’ve been able to survive his absence in the past.

The Celtics are 145-95 with Rondo over the last four seasons, but they are also 22-13 without him. He's previously missed as many as 14 games in a season.
 
In that span, they've been a plus-2.9 points per 48 minutes with him on the floor, but plus-4.4 points with him off the floor.

For those who are challenged with a calculator, the above stats show that we have a win record of 0.604 with Rondo, and a record of 0.628 without him.

Yes, not only does Rondo have a negative on/off rating, but we also have a better winning record when he's NOT playing than we do when he is. 

So please, somebody give me anything at all which proves that we are a significantly worse team without Rondo.  I'd love to have a reason to believe Rondo's league leading assiss and triple doubles mean something, but I just don't see it.

I don't think the offensive talent is anywhere near as good as you think. I think you need one of PP or Rondo to have a good team, otherwise we are terrible. We miss Ray as well because he could create his own shot. We have no one else that can create a shot other than PP. We won today because our defense tightened up. If there is ANY area we might be better sans Rondo it is D bit offensively I anticipate we will be terrible the remainder of the season. Just awful..
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 28, 2013, 03:05:15 AM
Yes, not only does Rondo have a negative on/off rating, but we also have a better winning record when he's NOT playing than we do when he is. 

  By the way, since you're using on/off numbers to determine a player's value to the team, out of the big 4 in the playoffs over the last 4 years Rondo's on/off numbers look like they're the best 3 times and 2nd best once.

Last season's playoffs both KG and AB had a better on/off rating than Rondo.  It wasn't close either...
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 28, 2013, 03:06:23 AM
Well if you're judging his impact based off of his on court/off court stats, he's clearly made a difference in the past two years...

2011-12:
On:  .502 eFG% 20.3ORB% 68.6AST% 15.3TOV% 104.4Ortg
Off: .484 eFG% 18.8ORB% 62.7AST% 18.3TOV% 96.7Ortg  +7.7

2011-12 playoffs:
On:  .476 eFG% 20.5ORB% 59AST% 14.2TOV% 102.2Ortg
Off: .428 eFG% 18ORB%   56AST% 16.8TOV% 92.3Ortg  +9.9
 
2010-11:
On:  .537 eFG% 67.1AST% 15.7TOV% 110.1Ortg
Off: .487 eFG% 56.3AST% 17TOV%   100.8Ortg  +9.3

2010-11 playoffs:
On:  .533 eFG% 24.9ORB% 61.6 AST% 109.7Ortg
Off: .441 eFG% 19.2ORB% 45.8 AST% 92.1Ortg +17.6

So in over 5600 minutes where Rondo was on the court versus the 2800 where he was off of it, the Celtics shot the ball at a higher percentage, were a better offensive rebounding team, assited the ball at a higher rate, turned the ball over less, and produced more points than their opponent.

It hasn't been true much this season, mostly due to his play over the last month, but it's clear that we are a better team with Rondo on the court. It seems silly to even debate this...

Hang on a second - all the numbers you are showing here are offensive numbers.

Rondo has a positive offensive impact on the team this season, we all know that.  Even the numbers I quoted showed that.

Our offensive rating is +2 (which is good) when Rondo is on the court.  However, our defensive rating is +4 (bad) when Rondo is on the court. So we score 2 more points, but we allow 4 more points.  Net result is we are losing by 2.

Also I'm not so concerned about his on/off rating for the last two seasons, I'm concerned about this season. 

To me it seems the instant Pierce declared Rondo the new leader of the team, that seems to be when things got to his head and he turned especially cocky and arrogant. 

So other stats suggest that we do tend to win more when Rondo has big games.  That suggests the following:

1. When Rondo plays great, we tend to win
2. When Rondo plays lazy, we are better off without him

Since our overall will record is better without him, this may suggests that he plays lazy too often for his own good.

I'd love to see what our record is with/without KG and with/without Pierce since 2008.  Not sure if anybody can pull those stats up, but I'm pretty confident will will have a major drop off in win percentage.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 03:06:46 AM
For the record Rondo runs our offense all day long and logs assists like they're going out of style and that does benefit the team. It's true that many people seem to enjoy watching the offense more when Rondo's controlling the ball less, it's equally true that our offense is usually worse during those times.

Yes he does run our offense and log assists all day, but where is the evidence to show that our team is far better when he's dong that?

Where is the evidence that shows all of Rondo's double figure assist nights and triple double nights are actually helping us win games?


  In the last 2 seasons we're 8-3 when Rondo has a triple double, 52-47 when he doesn't.

  Likewise, we're 40-26 on his double figure assist nights, 20-24 on all other nights.

Yet we have a better win record without him than with him?

  In 07-08 we had a better record without KG than with him, in fact in KG's first 2 years on the Celts (mvp caliber player, before the knee injury) we had a better combined record without him than with him. Whatever conclusions that you're drawing from our record without Rondo about Rajon's value to the team would apply equally to KG on his first 2 years on the team. Is your claim that neither of them helped the team win games?
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 28, 2013, 03:15:50 AM
I don't think the offensive talent is anywhere near as good as you think. I think you need one of PP or Rondo to have a good team, otherwise we are terrible. We miss Ray as well because he could create his own shot. We have no one else that can create a shot other than PP. We won today because our defense tightened up. If there is ANY area we might be better sans Rondo it is D bit offensively I anticipate we will be terrible the remainder of the season. Just awful..

Lee, Terry and Barbosa and Pierce are all capable of creating their own shot if past history is anything to go off. 

So can Green - it seems very few of Green's baskets (aside from his corner threes) have been assisted this season.  He seems to score the vast majority of his points from a triple threat position, usually taking his opponent off the dribble or shooting over the top. 

Sully scores a lot of his points off offensive rebounds and putbacks.

Wilcox, Bradley, Bass and KG seem to be the guys who score a lot off assists, but we have plenty of guys who have historically been quite capable (if not dominant) of creating their own shots.

Again we may not be the best offensive team in the NBA, but the level of offensive talent we have is far better than a 20th or 23rd ranked offense would suggest. 

Sure I'd still love to have Rondo around rather than not, but there's really no evidence from this season which suggests we play better with him than without.  Or from past seasons really. There's really nothing to indicate that we can't maintain a record as good as (or better than) our current one with him out. 

We could very possibly sink like a brick in the ocean, but we don't know that for sure.  The numbers suggest we still have life.  I'd still rather make the playoffs (even if its a first round exit) rather than bomb out the season and rebuild.  If nothing else at least Pierce and KG keep some self respect, and our young guys get some playoff experience together.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 28, 2013, 03:20:04 AM
  In 07-08 we had a better record without KG than with him, in fact in KG's first 2 years on the Celts (mvp caliber player, before the knee injury) we had a better combined record without him than with him. Whatever conclusions that you're drawing from our record without Rondo about Rajon's value to the team would apply equally to KG on his first 2 years on the team. Is your claim that neither of them helped the team win games?

I love how you're twisting this to tell the story you want it to tell by only quoting the first two years of stats. 

How about our OVERALL record with KG vs without him since 2008?

How about our record without KG in that season when we lost him to the Knee injury?  From what I recall we were playing elite basketball before he got hurt, then afterwards we struggled badly to win games.  Wasn't our record not much better than .500 without KG that season?
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 03:28:16 AM
Yes, not only does Rondo have a negative on/off rating, but we also have a better winning record when he's NOT playing than we do when he is. 

  By the way, since you're using on/off numbers to determine a player's value to the team, out of the big 4 in the playoffs over the last 4 years Rondo's on/off numbers look like they're the best 3 times and 2nd best once.

Last season's playoffs both KG and AB had a better on/off rating than Rondo.  It wasn't close either...

  In the 2011 playoffs Rondo had a better on/off than any of the big three in spite of playing about 1/3 of his minutes with a dislocated elbow. In fact, Rondo playing with 1 arm had a better on/off than any of the big three. Again, whatever you think that your on/off numbers show about KG's value compared to Rondo's will also apply to the previous year, only comparing KG (and PP and RA) negatively to a badly injured Rondo. And, again, Rondo's had a better on/off than PP or RA 4 years running and better than KG 2 out of the last 3 years in the playoffs.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: More Banners on January 28, 2013, 03:39:26 AM
I don't think the offensive talent is anywhere near as good as you think. I think you need one of PP or Rondo to have a good team, otherwise we are terrible. We miss Ray as well because he could create his own shot. We have no one else that can create a shot other than PP. We won today because our defense tightened up. If there is ANY area we might be better sans Rondo it is D bit offensively I anticipate we will be terrible the remainder of the season. Just awful..

Lee, Terry and Barbosa and Pierce are all capable of creating their own shot if past history is anything to go off. 

So can Green - it seems very few of Green's baskets (aside from his corner threes) have been assisted this season.  He seems to score the vast majority of his points from a triple threat position, usually taking his opponent off the dribble or shooting over the top. 

Sully scores a lot of his points off offensive rebounds and putbacks.

Wilcox, Bradley, Bass and KG seem to be the guys who score a lot off assists, but we have plenty of guys who have historically been quite capable (if not dominant) of creating their own shots.

Again we may not be the best offensive team in the NBA, but the level of offensive talent we have is far better than a 20th or 23rd ranked offense would suggest. 

Sure I'd still love to have Rondo around rather than not, but there's really no evidence from this season which suggests we play better with him than without.  Or from past seasons really. There's really nothing to indicate that we can't maintain a record as good as (or better than) our current one with him out. 

We could very possibly sink like a brick in the ocean, but we don't know that for sure.  The numbers suggest we still have life.  I'd still rather make the playoffs (even if its a first round exit) rather than bomb out the season and rebuild.  If nothing else at least Pierce and KG keep some self respect, and our young guys get some playoff experience together.

Agree completely.

The roster suggests that without Rondo, we would likely run a lot of S/R's with JET/Barbosa/Pierce/Green as the ball handler, or drive/kick/pass plays-simple stuff.  That sounds like more ball movement and taking max advantage of each player's talent.  And that's quite a bit, though they'd probably have to work hard and execute to gain mismatch advantages.

But then we have this Rondo on the books...and, essentially, some talented journeymen at every position except Center and a need for a star player at pretty much any position, arguably except SF.  And we have all of our picks, an at least middling record (15th or so pick) this year, to sweeten with.

So if we can upgrade from a journeyman to (whatever is above that) with a Rondo/Journeyman/Pick/Wyc's Money offer, I think we'd have a pretty good shot at making the Finals.

Players out there that might fit the bill?

Pau Gasol

Al Jefferson

Rudy Gay (if you'd take a SF)

Okafor

Nene

I think this might be the thing that could provide the extra nuts to make a move that actually puts us over the top this year.

Imagine Okafor and KG together up front, with Bradley and Lee in the frontcourt, and Pierce and Green filling SF duties.

Sully and Wilcox/COllins/Melo off the bench for bigs.
JET and Barbosa as bench guards, both former 6POYs.

I think we have a shot at the whole thing, and perhaps better with some of these options than Rondo and Bass, frankly.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 28, 2013, 03:43:06 AM
  In 07-08 we had a better record without KG than with him, in fact in KG's first 2 years on the Celts (mvp caliber player, before the knee injury) we had a better combined record without him than with him. Whatever conclusions that you're drawing from our record without Rondo about Rajon's value to the team would apply equally to KG on his first 2 years on the team. Is your claim that neither of them helped the team win games?

I love how you're twisting this to tell the story you want it to tell by only quoting the first two years of stats. 

How about our OVERALL record with KG vs without him since 2008?

How about our record without KG in that season when we lost him to the Knee injury?  From what I recall we were playing elite basketball before he got hurt, then afterwards we struggled badly to win games.  Wasn't our record not much better than .500 without KG that season?
In 09 we went from being the clear favorite to repeat as champions... to a team that was barely able to beat a young Bulls team in 7 games (many of which were overtime) thanks to some incredible play by Rondo and Ray Allen.  Our team overachieved that year... without KG it's a wonder we were even able to knock off that little Bulls team.  We played the Bulls again early the next season and I think we blew em out by like 50 points.  Totally different team without KG.

What a healthy KG brings to the table is irreplaceable.  You can't easily find a defensive anchor who can cover that much ground on the court thanks to his length...

What a healthy Rondo brings to the table (passing ability) is fantastic, but if you have scorers your team can adjust.  Our team tends to win games when Rondo sits, but it's usually become someone steps up.  Pierce historically has been that player.  Controlling the ball is a role Pierce has held for most of his career (including our title year when Rondo was merely a supporting cast role player).

Losing Rondo is a bummer.  Our offense absolutely will not look the same without him... but that doesn't mean our offense will be significantly worse without him. 

There might be a short term period of adjustment, but when the dust settles we'll be right back to being that mediocre .500 team we all know and love.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 03:56:56 AM
  In 07-08 we had a better record without KG than with him, in fact in KG's first 2 years on the Celts (mvp caliber player, before the knee injury) we had a better combined record without him than with him. Whatever conclusions that you're drawing from our record without Rondo about Rajon's value to the team would apply equally to KG on his first 2 years on the team. Is your claim that neither of them helped the team win games?

I love how you're twisting this to tell the story you want it to tell by only quoting the first two years of stats. 

How about our OVERALL record with KG vs without him since 2008?

How about our record without KG in that season when we lost him to the Knee injury?  From what I recall we were playing elite basketball before he got hurt, then afterwards we struggled badly to win games.  Wasn't our record not much better than .500 without KG that season?

  I'm not twisting this, I'm providing context. If you're going to say that on/off numbers indicate one thing for Rondo you should be able to apply the same analysis using the same stats to other players. People pounce on numbers that appear to make Rondo look bad without any real idea about whether there's any validity to their criticisms.

  If you're unwilling to accept that the same stats that you're using to evaluate Rondo can also be used to evaluate other players (like a pre-injury KG) then you should re-think your criticism, not accuse me of twisting things.

  But, to answer your questions, we didn't struggle badly to win games after KG was injured, we were 18-7 without him that year. And if the numbers in your earlier post about Rondo were correct we're 26-16 without him since the start of the 07-08 season, a 62% winning percentage. In that same time (since the beginning of the KG era) we're 42-24 without KG, a 64% winning percentage.

  So, again, let me know what you think that winning record without Rondo says about his contribution, just realize that it says the exact same thing about KG.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 04:02:55 AM
  In 07-08 we had a better record without KG than with him, in fact in KG's first 2 years on the Celts (mvp caliber player, before the knee injury) we had a better combined record without him than with him. Whatever conclusions that you're drawing from our record without Rondo about Rajon's value to the team would apply equally to KG on his first 2 years on the team. Is your claim that neither of them helped the team win games?

I love how you're twisting this to tell the story you want it to tell by only quoting the first two years of stats. 

How about our OVERALL record with KG vs without him since 2008?

How about our record without KG in that season when we lost him to the Knee injury?  From what I recall we were playing elite basketball before he got hurt, then afterwards we struggled badly to win games.  Wasn't our record not much better than .500 without KG that season?
In 09 we went from being the clear favorite to repeat as champions... to a team that was barely able to beat a young Bulls team in 7 games (many of which were overtime) thanks to some incredible play by Rondo and Ray Allen.  Our team overachieved that year... without KG it's a wonder we were even able to knock off that little Bulls team.  We played the Bulls again early the next season and I think we blew em out by like 50 points.  Totally different team without KG.

What a healthy KG brings to the table is irreplaceable.  You can't easily find a defensive anchor who can cover that much ground on the court thanks to his length...

What a healthy Rondo brings to the table (passing ability) is fantastic, but if you have scorers your team can adjust.  Our team tends to win games when Rondo sits, but it's usually become someone steps up.  Pierce historically has been that player.  Controlling the ball is a role Pierce has held for most of his career (including our title year when Rondo was merely a supporting cast role player).

Losing Rondo is a bummer.  Our offense absolutely will not look the same without him... but that doesn't mean our offense will be significantly worse without him. 

There might be a short term period of adjustment, but when the dust settles we'll be right back to being that mediocre .500 team we all know and love.

  As this thread seems to be showing, our record in the big three era has been better without KG than without Rondo. Claiming that we tend to win games without Rondo while waxing poetic about how irreplaceable KG is fairly ridiculous given the circumstances.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 04:21:25 AM
  In 07-08 we had a better record without KG than with him, in fact in KG's first 2 years on the Celts (mvp caliber player, before the knee injury) we had a better combined record without him than with him. Whatever conclusions that you're drawing from our record without Rondo about Rajon's value to the team would apply equally to KG on his first 2 years on the team. Is your claim that neither of them helped the team win games?

I love how you're twisting this to tell the story you want it to tell by only quoting the first two years of stats. 

How about our OVERALL record with KG vs without him since 2008?

How about our record without KG in that season when we lost him to the Knee injury?  From what I recall we were playing elite basketball before he got hurt, then afterwards we struggled badly to win games.  Wasn't our record not much better than .500 without KG that season?
In 09 we went from being the clear favorite to repeat as champions... to a team that was barely able to beat a young Bulls team in 7 games (many of which were overtime) thanks to some incredible play by Rondo and Ray Allen.  Our team overachieved that year... without KG it's a wonder we were even able to knock off that little Bulls team.

  Keep in mind we also lost Leon early in the Chicago series. Multiple injuries at the same position are hard to overcome. While we clearly missed KG and probably would have won the title without him it's fairly likely we'd have made it to the ECF with Powe playing. Instead we had to play our only backup big, SCAL, 20+ minutes a game.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: cltc5 on January 28, 2013, 04:25:10 AM
Look at how much life our offense had today without Rondo.  With in in the lineup it's just a stagnant half court set where he dribbles the ball for 10-15 seconds, makes one pass, and the possession is over.  This is how he racks up the majority of his assists (they aren't all ESPN highlight alley oops to KG, or behind the back passes). 
Without him, the players just play natural basketball.  It's a dynamic game; you have to adjust and take what's given to you.  They didn't just stand around today and watch Rondo dribble top of the key. 
Rondo plays hard and he can fill up a stat sheet no question, but he's not a great team player.  Just look at 2 triple doubles, and two losses.  Pierce just played hard today and got his triple double; he didn't just hang around the rim to get that 10th board.





When your pg is your leading scorer night in and out there's something wrong with your offensive flow.  Is there another point guard in the league in which so much of the offense surrounds?   Maybe Westbrook but he's a gunner instinctively.  Relying on our pg to lead in every aspect denies the rest if the team what they need to do.  It's been proven were capable of production without him.  A pg should be the facilitator not the entire team.

  Once again we have a below average offensive game without Rondo and people talk about how great it looked. And if you're going to use our record in games where Rondo has a triple double as an indication of whether he's a great team player, look at the rest of them as well. We aren't 0-2 when Rondo has triple doubles, we're 23-5.

I think there is a lot of truth to this.  We had pretty much our best def game of the year, but had to really fight / scrape out a really tough win. 

I just am getting tired of the double standard with Rondo.  RR gets a triple double and he is stat padding, PP gets one and he had a great overall game.  It makes no sense.  does everyone not want RR to score, rebound and get assists?

Rondo or no Rondo if we can't get higher % shots or improve our fg % it is going to be hard to get Wins. Hard to point to this as a typical game as well.  KG played 45 min and PP played 49 min just getting by on fumes at the end.  I mean we had no choice, but my point is we can't expect this type of mins / effort out of the old guys every night.  They won't make it to the playoffs.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Mr Green on January 28, 2013, 06:28:02 AM
It's not as bad as it looks.

Danny just needs to find a half decent center to post up and clog the middle on defense.

It's time for Green to start ahead of Pierce, who should take up the sixth man role to keep his legs fresh.

Sully will keep cleaning the glass like windex.

Lee, Terry, AB and Barbosa are more capable of covering both back court positions as an interchangable unit.

KG will take it to the next level in the post season and the Cs can shock the world, again.

Bleed green ladies and gentlemen!
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Gomesfan on January 28, 2013, 06:48:59 AM
What is everyone's infatuation with Pau Gasol? He's not much younger than Pierce other KG. I don't think those issues the guy you rebuild with. This is a guy you try and add to a solid core making a run.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 28, 2013, 07:43:15 AM
Quote from: BballTim
As this thread seems to be showing, our record in the big three era has been better without KG than without Rondo. Claiming that we tend to win games without Rondo while waxing poetic about how irreplaceable KG is fairly ridiculous given the circumstances.

We'll see...

I'm telling you right now that our most critical players are Pierce and KG.

Pierce (not Rondo) is our most important offensive player, because he is the one and only consistent offensive threat on this team.  The only guy who can demand double teams every time he touches the ball, and the only guy who can score pretty much at will when he gets hot.

KG is our most important defensive player, becuase he is the anchor and the orchestrator of our defense.  He talks, gets everybody in the right spots, and is the only big we have who's capable of protecting the paint.  His net defensive rating of (-8.58) currently ranks 4th in the entire league.  Our defensive rating with KG off the court (108.03) is pretty close to the worse defense in the league, while our defensive rating with him on the court (99.46) is among the best.

Rajon Rondo has a negative defensive rating AND a negative offensive rating according to the numbers right here:

http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?year=2012-2013&id=553 (http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?year=2012-2013&id=553)

More importantly than individual numbers though is the lineups. 

Yes, if you look at all of our rotations that have played together, the majority of our top rotations feature Rondo as the PG:

1. Terry, Pierce, Green, Sullinger, Garnett (+51.67|9 mins)
2. Rondo, Lee, Green, Sullinger, Garnett (+49.51|22 mins)
3. Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Green, Garnett (+37.04|18 mins)
4. Rondo, Lee, Pierce, Green, Garnett (+33.81|31 mins)
5. Rondo, Barbosa, Pierce, Bass Garnett (+33.33|15 mins)
6. Terry, Lee, Green, Sullinger, Garnett (+27.12|95 mins)
7. Rondo, Lee, Pierce, Sullinger, Garnett (+25.61|41 mins)

That said, we have two strong lineup options here (#2 and #6) which have so far been extremely effective despite Rondo not being in those rotations.

An interesting thing to note is that while Rondo is featured in 5 of these 7 lineups, the same can be said for both Pierce and (surprisingly enough) Jeff Green.

Look, it's obvious that Rondo has an impact on this team, but the point I'm trying to make here is that he doesn't have as big an impact as everybody says.  We are not immedinately doomoed without him - if guys like Terry, Lee and Green step up, we can easilly make up for his loss.

In fact I think those stats I quoted earlier showed that the Celtics average 23 assists per game with Rondo on the court, and 20 assists per game when he's not on the court.  This is actually a pretty small defecit ofonly 3 extra assists per game that we record as a team when Rondo is playing - clearly the other guys (be it Pierce, KG, Barbosa, etc) are upping their assists when Rondo isn't there.

I honestly think we are going to be roughly about as good as we were with Rondo.  While we will miss his talents, I think we will change our style of game with him out (which may make us less predictable and harder to prepare against) and I get the feeling one or two guys (I think Barbosa, Terry, Lee or Green) are going to lift their game in his absense. 

We shall see!
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 28, 2013, 07:47:20 AM
What is everyone's infatuation with Pau Gasol? He's not much younger than Pierce other KG. I don't think those issues the guy you rebuild with. This is a guy you try and add to a solid core making a run.

Agreed, Gasol is pretty much a bum right now.   He makes Gortat look like a hall of famer by comparison.

Gasol is a poor defender, he's shooting a horribly low FG% this year, he's plays older than he is (slow as a snail), and he has a history of dissapearing completely in critical games (such as the playoffs).  He also has one of the ugliest contacts in the NBA.

We aren't going to get Gasol with Bass and a pick - we'd need to give up something significant to get him back (to match salaries at the very least) and there's no way I'm willing to offer what we'd need to in order to get him in return.

There are so many bigs who are better value to us in terms of what they would provide vs what we'd pay them. 
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Kuberski1 on January 28, 2013, 08:10:43 AM
To win, you need to be good AND lucky, and I dare say this year we are neither.   2008 we were both in spades, and last year we benefited from some other teams' "un-luck" - specifically DRose going down giving us a relatively easy walk to the ECF, and no Bosh being a factor in going to 7 (yes, I know we had our own injuries last year as well, but our stars were healthy...).

In my book, this year is done, as we have basically a zero shot at the chip, whereas with Rondo, and enough bad luck with the elite teams, who knows...I was thinking we had a small (some say 5%) chance.

My guess is that Ainge watches the next couple of weeks or so to see how we fare, and see what other GMs are willing to give for KG and Paul.  If not interesting, he'll pass, and wait for summer....if he likes something, then I think he'd sit with KG and Paul and see how they feel about things.

It's a shame, because it closes the door, which was still slightly ajar, on a season that began with so much hope.  I thought DA had a fantastic summer, and genuinely felt we'd be a top tier team.   But it wasn't meant to be.  Sometimes, it's hard to be a fan!
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Gomesfan on January 28, 2013, 08:21:34 AM
What is everyone's infatuation with Pau Gasol? He's not much younger than Pierce other KG. I don't think those issues the guy you rebuild with. This is a guy you try and add to a solid core making a run.

Agreed, Gasol is pretty much a bum right now.   He makes Gortat look like a hall of famer by comparison.

Gasol is a poor defender, he's shooting a horribly low FG% this year, he's plays older than he is (slow as a snail), and he has a history of dissapearing completely in critical games (such as the playoffs).  He also has one of the ugliest contacts in the NBA.

We aren't going to get Gasol with Bass and a pick - we'd need to give up something significant to get him back (to match salaries at the very least) and there's no way I'm willing to offer what we'd need to in order to get him in return.

There are so many bigs who are better value to us in terms of what they would provide vs what we'd pay them.
What kills me is people,before the Rondo injury wanted to trade Pierce for Gasol....I just never got it!!!
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: BballTim on January 28, 2013, 10:17:24 AM
Quote from: BballTim
As this thread seems to be showing, our record in the big three era has been better without KG than without Rondo. Claiming that we tend to win games without Rondo while waxing poetic about how irreplaceable KG is fairly ridiculous given the circumstances.

We'll see...

I'm telling you right now that our most critical players are Pierce and KG.

Pierce (not Rondo) is our most important offensive player, because he is the one and only consistent offensive threat on this team.  The only guy who can demand double teams every time he touches the ball, and the only guy who can score pretty much at will when he gets hot.

KG is our most important defensive player, becuase he is the anchor and the orchestrator of our defense.  He talks, gets everybody in the right spots, and is the only big we have who's capable of protecting the paint.  His net defensive rating of (-8.58) currently ranks 4th in the entire league.  Our defensive rating with KG off the court (108.03) is pretty close to the worse defense in the league, while our defensive rating with him on the court (99.46) is among the best.

Rajon Rondo has a negative defensive rating AND a negative offensive rating according to the numbers right here:

http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?year=2012-2013&id=553 (http://basketballvalue.com/player.php?year=2012-2013&id=553)

More importantly than individual numbers though is the lineups. 

Yes, if you look at all of our rotations that have played together, the majority of our top rotations feature Rondo as the PG:

1. Terry, Pierce, Green, Sullinger, Garnett (+51.67|9 mins)
2. Rondo, Lee, Green, Sullinger, Garnett (+49.51|22 mins)
3. Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Green, Garnett (+37.04|18 mins)
4. Rondo, Lee, Pierce, Green, Garnett (+33.81|31 mins)
5. Rondo, Barbosa, Pierce, Bass Garnett (+33.33|15 mins)
6. Terry, Lee, Green, Sullinger, Garnett (+27.12|95 mins)
7. Rondo, Lee, Pierce, Sullinger, Garnett (+25.61|41 mins)

That said, we have two strong lineup options here (#2 and #6) which have so far been extremely effective despite Rondo not being in those rotations.

  We'll see. I think your choice of who our most important offensive player is based solely on who scores the most points is a little off, and I don't agree that PP demands a double team every time he touches the ball. He hasn't for a few years, which would be back when his "scoring at will" was something of a regular occurrence.

  I agree that KG's our most important defensive player but I'd caution you about using on/off numbers to show it. It's basically a comparison of how well he plays defense compared to our backup centers, and we don't have great defensive players behind him. If you think about this you'd come to the conclusion that if KG played the same way he is now and the defense improved when he was on the bench his on/off numbers would drop, so they don't necessarily track his level of play closely.

  His numbers earlier this year were much better than they are now, not because his play has slipped drastically but because (for whatever reason) we "fallen apart less" when he was out.

  I'm not a huge +/- guy so I don't go to that website. But I'd be curious why Rondo's 2 year adjusted +/- is so high. Isn't that more important than his raw +/- for this year (half a year, really, where a nagging injury or a few bad games can really skew results)? And are you really thinking that someone who's had a good +/- for a few years and a bad +/- for part of a year is playing drastically worse than they had been? And would you claim that your answer was true for all players and not just Rondo?

  Lastly, did you really examine the lineups that you listed above? Are you *that* confident that the top lineup is a strong one if it's only played together 9 minutes all year? Wouldn't you expect our strongest lineup to average more than 13-14 seconds a game?
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: MBunge on January 28, 2013, 10:37:54 AM
The only thing that prevents the loss of Rondo from being a totally crippling blow is that it ends the struggle that's been going on every year over whose team it is.  I'd bet that the inconsistency and chemistry problems that have killed this team will greatly fade now.

Mike
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 28, 2013, 10:38:32 AM
If Ainge blows it up, it'll be the most idiotic move of his career as a GM.

and why's that? the chance at a title is clearly over, what's the point of keeping them together ?

Gives KG and Paul a chance to retire with the team they deserve to.  Sure, our championship hopes are done, but, if they could at least make the playoffs and go out giving a valiant effort, it'd be something the fans could remember.

Let KG and Paul retire at the end of this season if they want to, tank next year, then use the cap space we could have to rebuild.

Trading them now will likely result in bad contracts coming back our way.  No thanks.
This is exactly how I feel.
Title: Re: Danny Ainge on the Direction the C's will go
Post by: Gomesfan on January 28, 2013, 10:44:53 AM
Weei just mentioned a Kyle Lowry rumor?