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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Clench123 on January 27, 2013, 04:24:54 PM

Title: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Clench123 on January 27, 2013, 04:24:54 PM
You could hear him..."that's how you fight.  that's how you fight."

He's been a great coach all along.  The only difference tonight is that the players came together and gave a great effort. 
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 27, 2013, 04:25:15 PM
I loved those "Wired" segments....
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 01, 2013, 11:59:43 PM
Doc's post game interview

Re: How well Jason Terry and Leandro Barbosa played together:
"We kind of let them play. I called the one time-out and they kept asking, ‘What are we running?’ I said, ‘I have no idea. Just go out and space the floor and play. And play through it. And I think Jason loves to play that way; I think LB clearly likes to play that way, and they just read each other extremely well. We try to keep them on the floor at the same time."


this has to be the comment of the year. haha

Is this all this guy says at huddles??

All kidding aside, without rondo it doesn't have to be rocket science anymore. Guys have so much freedom out there and they are executing harmoniously
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 02, 2013, 12:05:19 AM
Keeping it simple.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: colincb on February 02, 2013, 12:44:56 AM
Outside of the championship season, the team has always outperformed expectations going into the playoffs (and we weren't favored against the Lakers either in those Finals either). Doc deserves a great deal of credit for that and for a team in the depleted situation that we are in now, I'd rather have him than even Pops. He's a great motivator.  There's now way we should have gotten to 7 games against MIA last year with Pierce and Ray playing hurt, AB injured, and without one legit bench scorer. (OTOH, give Doc 13 competent players that can play in the NBA and we'll see 10,000 different combinations as he searches for the "best" possible solution).
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: bfrombleacher on February 02, 2013, 12:47:01 AM
Keeping it simple.

I hope we do that after Rondo comes back.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: xmuscularghandix on February 02, 2013, 01:22:20 AM
Keeping it simple.

I hope we do that after Rondo comes back.

If this continues Rondo won't be here next year. All the things this team has been doing well over the past three games CAN'T be done with Rondo. He slows things down, he gambles and relaxes on defense, he doesn't trust his teammates to handle the ball.
Title: I DID
Post by: Ogaju on February 02, 2013, 01:32:58 AM
how does this make him a great coach?

He has had these same players all year and he did not know how to use them. His failure to utilize the talent given to him by the GM for the better part of the season prompted many here to call for trades and blow up scenarios. Now all of a sudden two players go down and Doc is forced to actually PLAY the players at his disposal and LET them play, and yall think he is great. Okaaaaay

When we won the Chip in 2008 Doc lucked out in the final against the Lakers because foul trouble and injuries made him play folks like Powe and Posey that allowed the Cs to win.

Doc definitely would still be struggling now if Rondo had not gone down.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: bfrombleacher on February 02, 2013, 01:36:16 AM
Keeping it simple.

I hope we do that after Rondo comes back.

If this continues Rondo won't be here next year. All the things this team has been doing well over the past three games CAN'T be done with Rondo. He slows things down, he gambles and relaxes on defense, he doesn't trust his teammates to handle the ball.

I'm with those who think it's Doc's playbook that dictated the Rondo-Celtic playstyle, not Rondo.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 02, 2013, 01:59:49 AM
Lol yeah, it only took the best player on the team to go down before doc finally gets that rondo pounding the ball isn't the way to go. Hell, for all we know he still doesn't get it.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 02, 2013, 02:01:15 AM
If anything this shows how overrated doc is. He had the players to make it work but he wasn't making it work. Rondo wasn't the problem. Doc was the problem.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Galeto on February 02, 2013, 02:12:30 AM
Keeping it simple.

I hope we do that after Rondo comes back.

If this continues Rondo won't be here next year. All the things this team has been doing well over the past three games CAN'T be done with Rondo. He slows things down, he gambles and relaxes on defense, he doesn't trust his teammates to handle the ball.

I'm with those who think it's Doc's playbook that dictated the Rondo-Celtic playstyle, not Rondo.

I don't think so at all.  You think Doc wanted only Rondo to have the ball all the time?  To use up so many possessions dribbling around while his teammates stood around doing nothing?  To not take advantage of the new speed he had on the wing by not passing the ball up ahead? If he did, he's one of the most incompetent, feckless coaches who has ever existed.  I think his biggest problem was that he couldn't rein in the ball hogging monster he created in Rondo.  He just let too much slide. 

I remember the first game Rondo returned from his two game suspension, he played the first quarter like I always hoped he would: throwing the ball up ahead, attacking, not being a ball stopper. I thought maybe he had learned something by watching his teammates play without him.  All that went away after his first rest as he went back to hogging the ball.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on February 02, 2013, 02:14:31 AM
Keeping it simple.

I hope we do that after Rondo comes back.

If this continues Rondo won't be here next year. All the things this team has been doing well over the past three games CAN'T be done with Rondo. He slows things down, he gambles and relaxes on defense, he doesn't trust his teammates to handle the ball.

I'm with those who think it's Doc's playbook that dictated the Rondo-Celtic playstyle, not Rondo.

I don't think so at all.  You think Doc wanted only Rondo to have the ball all the time?  To use up so many possessions dribbling around while his teammates stand around doing nothing?  To not take advantage of the new speed he had on the wing by not passing the ball up ahead? If he did, he's one of the most incompetent, feckless coaches who has ever existed.  I think his biggest problem was that he couldn't rein in the ball hogging monster he created in Rondo.  He just let too much slide. 

I remember the first game Rondo returned from his two game suspension, he played the first quarter like I always hoped he would: throwing the ball up ahead, attacking, not being a ball stopper. I thought maybe he had learned something by watching his teammates play without him.  All that went away after his first rest as he went back to hogging the ball.

Doc is already on record as saying hes the reason rondo has the ball as much as he does so you can't deny its doc.
Title: Re: I DID
Post by: ManUp on February 02, 2013, 02:16:10 AM
how does this make him a great coach?

He has had these same players all year and he did not know how to use them. His failure to utilize the talent given to him by the GM for the better part of the season prompted many here to call for trades and blow up scenarios. Now all of a sudden two players go down and Doc is forced to actually PLAY the players at his disposal and LET them play, and yall think he is great. Okaaaaay

When we won the Chip in 2008 Doc lucked out in the final against the Lakers because foul trouble and injuries made him play folks like Powe and Posey that allowed the Cs to win.

Doc definitely would still be struggling now if Rondo had not gone down.

I co-sign the first paragraph and last sentence.

Doc has had the players and pieces all year.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Galeto on February 02, 2013, 02:23:26 AM
Why is it on the coach to instruct Rondo on the very basics of the game?  If Rondo doesn't know that ball movement and pushing the ball up ahead with the pass and keeping his teammates involved by getting them consistent touches is a good way to play basketball, that's on him. You shouldn't have to coach a player on that at this level. Everyone else on the Celtics seems to understand it.

Doc put a lot of faith in Rondo.  Rondo rewarded him by putting up great numbers.  He didn't however reward him by leading an efficient offense or giving a [dang] on defense most of the time.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Galeto on February 02, 2013, 02:30:54 AM
Keeping it simple.

I hope we do that after Rondo comes back.

If this continues Rondo won't be here next year. All the things this team has been doing well over the past three games CAN'T be done with Rondo. He slows things down, he gambles and relaxes on defense, he doesn't trust his teammates to handle the ball.

I'm with those who think it's Doc's playbook that dictated the Rondo-Celtic playstyle, not Rondo.

I don't think so at all.  You think Doc wanted only Rondo to have the ball all the time?  To use up so many possessions dribbling around while his teammates stand around doing nothing?  To not take advantage of the new speed he had on the wing by not passing the ball up ahead? If he did, he's one of the most incompetent, feckless coaches who has ever existed.  I think his biggest problem was that he couldn't rein in the ball hogging monster he created in Rondo.  He just let too much slide. 

I remember the first game Rondo returned from his two game suspension, he played the first quarter like I always hoped he would: throwing the ball up ahead, attacking, not being a ball stopper. I thought maybe he had learned something by watching his teammates play without him.  All that went away after his first rest as he went back to hogging the ball.

Doc is already on record as saying hes the reason rondo has the ball as much as he does so you can't deny its doc.

So if Rondo wanted to play differently, like say, throwing the ball up ahead once in awhile, or creating good ball movement in half court sets, Doc would have put a stop to it?  I don't think Doc is blameless in this matter. He saw the faults in his team and couldn't fix it.  I think his biggest failing was being blinded by Rondo's individual brilliance.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: celticsleyte on February 02, 2013, 02:48:09 AM
Why is it on the coach to instruct Rondo on the very basics of the game?  If Rondo doesn't know that ball movement and pushing the ball up ahead with the pass and keeping his teammates involved by getting them consistent touches is a good way to play basketball, that's on him. You shouldn't have to coach a player on that at this level. Everyone else on the Celtics seems to understand it.

Doc put a lot of faith in Rondo.  Rondo rewarded him by putting up great numbers.  He didn't however reward him by leading an efficient offense or giving a [dang] on defense most of the time.

I disagree, the longer a player is on the celtics the less they look to run.  The less they try to offensive rebound.  It is on the coaching staff.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: PhoSita on February 02, 2013, 03:10:41 AM
I think Doc is good at managing personalities and giving motivational speeches.  He draws up some nice plays out of timeouts, and he's got a very effective defensive system.

I'm not a huge fan of his selection of lineups and rotations.  Nor do I think he's very good at coaching a team offensively.  Creative and flexible are not words I'd use to describe him.

I also doubt his ability to keep a team fully focused and engaged every night during the regular season.  Certainly nothing close to a coach like Thibs.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 02, 2013, 07:59:18 AM
Doc's rotations are still screwed up...

His offensive system looks much much better when people are actually moving the ball.

But his rotations have sucked since the start of the season, and they still do.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Rtpas11 on February 02, 2013, 08:06:43 AM
Doc's not a great coach... he's a good coach, but a great mentor.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on February 02, 2013, 08:43:44 AM
You could hear him..."that's how you fight.  that's how you fight."

He's been a great coach all along.  The only difference tonight is that the players came together and gave a great effort.

OH. MY. GOODNESS. Have you not watched how doc coached OFFENSIVELY all this season up to now when rondo got hurt? Not attacking enough? not using players properly? using PP in iso at the end? not moving the ball enough? not posting up enough?That is NOT great coaching by any means.

The only reason it is happening now is because he has no choice. WHich is sad. It should have never come to this.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on February 02, 2013, 08:45:10 AM
If anything this shows how overrated doc is. He had the players to make it work but he wasn't making it work. Rondo wasn't the problem. Doc was the problem.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: scaryjerry on February 02, 2013, 09:05:08 AM
Why  couldn't he coach the team the same way when rondo was healthy? And don't tell me it was rondos fault...he was averaging more minutes then anyone in the league...doesn't sound like someone defying his coach.....all of a sudden with a limited roster his brain started working.

Doc isn't great
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: scaryjerry on February 02, 2013, 09:10:23 AM
Why is it on the coach to instruct Rondo on the very basics of the game?  If Rondo doesn't know that ball movement and pushing the ball up ahead with the pass and keeping his teammates involved by getting them consistent touches is a good way to play basketball, that's on him. You shouldn't have to coach a player on that at this level. Everyone else on the Celtics seems to understand it.

Doc put a lot of faith in Rondo.  Rondo rewarded him by putting up great numbers.  He didn't however reward him by leading an efficient offense or giving a [dang] on defense most of the time.


If doc wasn't satisfied with rondo "pounding the ball" why'd he give him more minutes then anybody? Cmon don't be silly....if he was so great he would've benched him
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: scaryjerry on February 02, 2013, 09:13:05 AM
You could hear him..."that's how you fight.  that's how you fight."

He's been a great coach all along.  The only difference tonight is that the players came together and gave a great effort.


He's been saying "that's how you fight" or "keep fighting" year after year in every game....kinda weird you think it makes him a good coach....by these standards I could coach the team
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Chief on February 02, 2013, 09:30:27 AM
You could hear him..."that's how you fight.  that's how you fight."

He's been a great coach all along.  The only difference tonight is that the players came together and gave a great effort.

I did.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 02, 2013, 09:44:39 AM
I did.  Doc's a good coach, not a great one.  Now Pop, that's a great coach.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Who on February 02, 2013, 10:25:34 AM
I'm with those who think it's Doc's playbook that dictated the Rondo-Celtic playstyle, not Rondo.
Yep, me too. I think Rondo would be perfectly comfortable and very effective in a less PG centric offense.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: OttawaCeltic on February 02, 2013, 10:37:54 AM
Doc is a bad coach, even I caveman could do better. (Someone had that as their sig, I forgot who though...")
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: coco on February 02, 2013, 10:43:04 AM
Keeping it simple.

Agreed.

Everytime we have injuries, it facilitates Doc's rotation decisions - which is his biggest weakness.

How ironic.  The less available players, the better Doc rotations get/are.

Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: ScottHow on February 02, 2013, 10:46:49 AM
I don't get the Doc hate.

Somehow he couldn't coach before the big 3, then he turns into one of the best coaches in the league when we win it all, then he somehow forgets how to coach again, then we make a run in the playoffs so he is amazing again. Now he sucks again.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on February 02, 2013, 10:57:45 AM
Keeping it simple.

Agreed.

Everytime we have injuries, it facilitates Doc's rotation decisions - which is his biggest weakness.

How ironic.  The less available players, the better Doc rotations get/are.

yep. I said this last night. Takes the guesswork out of it for him.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: BballTim on February 02, 2013, 10:58:23 AM
I don't get the Doc hate.

Somehow he couldn't coach before the big 3, then he turns into one of the best coaches in the league when we win it all, then he somehow forgets how to coach again, then we make a run in the playoffs so he is amazing again. Now he sucks again.

  Sounds like you get it just fine.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on February 02, 2013, 11:03:00 AM
I don't get the Doc hate.

Somehow he couldn't coach before the big 3, then he turns into one of the best coaches in the league when we win it all, then he somehow forgets how to coach again, then we make a run in the playoffs so he is amazing again. Now he sucks again.

scroll back and read the thread again. The issues have been laid out here in detail ad infinitum. The bottom line is it is doc's responsibilty to tell the players to try something different or find something that works. not rondo pounding the ball slowly killing all ball movement and transition and not allowing others to create while the shot clock dwindles away. not posting up. not attacking enough. Was it too hard for doc to tell them this?
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 02, 2013, 11:03:45 AM
I don't get the Doc hate.

Somehow he couldn't coach before the big 3, then he turns into one of the best coaches in the league when we win it all, then he somehow forgets how to coach again, then we make a run in the playoffs so he is amazing again. Now he sucks again.

  Sounds like you get it just fine.

Personally, really liked how the team played hard for him prior to the big 3, even in our worst of seasons.

Thought he did a great job in the first year with the big 3. I've questioned his decision making a lot since then, until it culminated with the poor job he's done this season so far.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: ScottHow on February 02, 2013, 11:20:31 AM
I don't get the Doc hate.

Somehow he couldn't coach before the big 3, then he turns into one of the best coaches in the league when we win it all, then he somehow forgets how to coach again, then we make a run in the playoffs so he is amazing again. Now he sucks again.

  Sounds like you get it just fine.

Let me change that then...

I don't get how fans can't see the correlation between winning and talent. While the coach remains the same.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: celtics2 on February 02, 2013, 11:24:10 AM
You could hear him..."that's how you fight.  that's how you fight."

He's been a great coach all along.  The only difference tonight is that the players came together and gave a great effort.

So a statement makes a *great* Coach?  Words have meanings. I don't think Doc cracks the top 10 in coaching now. And not even the top 30 historically. He can Coach a very good team evidenced by the Big 3 1st year. He won't make a mediocre team better. Doc never got control of Rondo. We are better off without Rondo who has an over controlling ego problem directing a game. With all Rondo's assists when Allen left we became a 500 team. Now the same characters that weren't producing with Rondo are now. How is that explained?
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: BballTim on February 02, 2013, 11:28:16 AM
I don't get the Doc hate.

Somehow he couldn't coach before the big 3, then he turns into one of the best coaches in the league when we win it all, then he somehow forgets how to coach again, then we make a run in the playoffs so he is amazing again. Now he sucks again.

  Sounds like you get it just fine.

Personally, really liked how the team played hard for him prior to the big 3, even in our worst of seasons.

Thought he did a great job in the first year with the big 3. I've questioned his decision making a lot since then, until it culminated with the poor job he's done this season so far.

  I'd say that the hardest working Celtics team we had were the Pitino Celtics.Unfortunately that was about the only thing I liked about them.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: CelticG1 on February 02, 2013, 11:31:16 AM
I don't get the Doc hate.

Somehow he couldn't coach before the big 3, then he turns into one of the best coaches in the league when we win it all, then he somehow forgets how to coach again, then we make a run in the playoffs so he is amazing again. Now he sucks again.

  Sounds like you get it just fine.

Personally, really liked how the team played hard for him prior to the big 3, even in our worst of seasons.

Thought he did a great job in the first year with the big 3. I've questioned his decision making a lot since then, until it culminated with the poor job he's done this season so far.

  I'd say that the hardest working Celtics team we had were the Pitino Celtics.Unfortunately that was about the only thing I liked about them.

Full Court press baby!!
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: kgainez on February 02, 2013, 02:03:14 PM
If anything this shows how overrated doc is. He had the players to make it work but he wasn't making it work. Rondo wasn't the problem. Doc was the problem.

as much as I'm trying to refrain from negativity during this injury plagued portion of the season, I have to agree with this. Doc is really just letting them play to their talents now. Doesn't mean he's a GREAT coach. Just means he had to finally adjust to what works for his talent...something he should've done a long time ago.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Clench123 on February 02, 2013, 02:24:32 PM
Doc's post game interview

Re: How well Jason Terry and Leandro Barbosa played together:
"We kind of let them play. I called the one time-out and they kept asking, ‘What are we running?’ I said, ‘I have no idea. Just go out and space the floor and play. And play through it. And I think Jason loves to play that way; I think LB clearly likes to play that way, and they just read each other extremely well. We try to keep them on the floor at the same time."


this has to be the comment of the year. haha

Is this all this guy says at huddles??

All kidding aside, without rondo it doesn't have to be rocket science anymore. Guys have so much freedom out there and they are executing harmoniously

That is a great coaching strategy in case you don't know
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on February 02, 2013, 02:37:05 PM
Doc's post game interview

Re: How well Jason Terry and Leandro Barbosa played together:
"We kind of let them play. I called the one time-out and they kept asking, ‘What are we running?’ I said, ‘I have no idea. Just go out and space the floor and play. And play through it. And I think Jason loves to play that way; I think LB clearly likes to play that way, and they just read each other extremely well. We try to keep them on the floor at the same time."


this has to be the comment of the year. haha

Is this all this guy says at huddles??

All kidding aside, without rondo it doesn't have to be rocket science anymore. Guys have so much freedom out there and they are executing harmoniously

That is a great coaching strategy in case you don't know

yeah, sad he did not let them do that when rondo was playing huh?
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: staticcc on February 02, 2013, 02:40:44 PM
OK so we fire Doc and replace him with who!? And I assume people think that coach would have done better in 09 without KG, won again in 10, been better than Doc and beat Miami in 11, and won again in 12?

CRAZY! Doc is the coach for this team and when he's gone , fans will realize how far superior Doc is to whoever is coaching the team at that time.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Galeto on February 02, 2013, 04:04:54 PM
I don't get the Doc hate.

Somehow he couldn't coach before the big 3, then he turns into one of the best coaches in the league when we win it all, then he somehow forgets how to coach again, then we make a run in the playoffs so he is amazing again. Now he sucks again.

scroll back and read the thread again. The issues have been laid out here in detail ad infinitum. The bottom line is it is doc's responsibilty to tell the players to try something different or find something that works. not rondo pounding the ball slowly killing all ball movement and transition and not allowing others to create while the shot clock dwindles away. not posting up. not attacking enough. Was it too hard for doc to tell them this?

I think he did tell them.  He talked about ball movement and passing the ball up ahead.  The problem was that the guy who dominated ball possession liked to play in the half court most of the time.  What else am I to infer from Rondo slow walking the ball so much, rarely passing the ball up ahead, calling so many set plays on offense, etc.  Could Doc have taken a harder line?  Maybe but Rondo had become too good to sit.  That's all beside the point anyway.  A point guard should not have to be told to create better ball movement. 
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: dark_lord on February 02, 2013, 04:09:32 PM
doc is a great coach, plain and simple. however, his strengths are better suited for veteran teams. 

to anyone who thinks he isn't a good coach, im sure if you asked every organization if they would like having doc as their coach, virtually every team would say "yes".
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: TitleMaster on February 02, 2013, 04:26:04 PM
Both Doc and Rondo are overrated.

The 2008 championship squad was stacked. Posey, PJ Brown, Powe, House, Cassell, TA, Big Baby, and for kicks, Scalabrine, supported the starting five of PP, RA, KP, KG, and Rondo. I believe many coaches would have won a title with that many qualified subs for every position. If anything, our sixth man Big Game James Posey, deserves a heck of a lot of credit of his untiring hustle and clutch plays during the '08 run.

And finally, when the shots are falling, then Rondo has his monster games of finding the open man for the high assists, or driving in the lane for a mini-dream shake layup. The was the story of the last three playoff runs but just as in the Jim O'Brien world of the three point bombers, if those shots don't fall, then the entire offense becomes a sludge-fest with Rondo at the helm.

Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: BballTim on February 02, 2013, 04:32:04 PM
Both Doc and Rondo are overrated.

The 2008 championship squad was stacked. Posey, PJ Brown, Powe, House, Cassell, TA, Big Baby, and for kicks, Scalabrine, supported the starting five of PP, RA, KP, KG, and Rondo. I believe many coaches would have won a title with that many qualified subs for every position. If anything, our sixth man Big Game James Posey, deserves a heck of a lot of credit of his untiring hustle and clutch plays during the '08 run.

And finally, when the shots are falling, then Rondo has his monster games of finding the open man for the high assists, or driving in the lane for a mini-dream shake layup. The was the story of the last three playoff runs but just as in the Jim O'Brien world of the three point bombers, if those shots don't fall, then the entire offense becomes a sludge-fest with Rondo at the helm.

  I don't think an offense looking bad if nobody's making shots is in any way specific to Rondo-led teams.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: TitleMaster on February 02, 2013, 04:44:24 PM
And finally, when the shots are falling, then Rondo has his monster games of finding the open man for the high assists, or driving in the lane for a mini-dream shake layup. The was the story of the last three playoff runs but just as in the Jim O'Brien world of the three point bombers, if those shots don't fall, then the entire offense becomes a sludge-fest with Rondo at the helm.

  I don't think an offense looking bad if nobody's making shots is in any way specific to Rondo-led teams.

When the shots don't fall ... you take it to the hole, or you help others, to take it to the paint by setting screens & getting in an opponent's face. The problem is that Rondo's game doesn't adapt in that situation, he still looks for that assist during a poor shooting night. Then, you have a game, lopsided by poor shot attempts.


Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: bfrombleacher on February 02, 2013, 08:15:51 PM
Keeping it simple.

I hope we do that after Rondo comes back.

If this continues Rondo won't be here next year. All the things this team has been doing well over the past three games CAN'T be done with Rondo. He slows things down, he gambles and relaxes on defense, he doesn't trust his teammates to handle the ball.

I'm with those who think it's Doc's playbook that dictated the Rondo-Celtic playstyle, not Rondo.

I don't think so at all.  You think Doc wanted only Rondo to have the ball all the time?  To use up so many possessions dribbling around while his teammates stand around doing nothing?  To not take advantage of the new speed he had on the wing by not passing the ball up ahead? If he did, he's one of the most incompetent, feckless coaches who has ever existed.  I think his biggest problem was that he couldn't rein in the ball hogging monster he created in Rondo.  He just let too much slide. 

I remember the first game Rondo returned from his two game suspension, he played the first quarter like I always hoped he would: throwing the ball up ahead, attacking, not being a ball stopper. I thought maybe he had learned something by watching his teammates play without him.  All that went away after his first rest as he went back to hogging the ball.

Doc is already on record as saying hes the reason rondo has the ball as much as he does so you can't deny its doc.

So if Rondo wanted to play differently, like say, throwing the ball up ahead once in awhile, or creating good ball movement in half court sets, Doc would have put a stop to it?  I don't think Doc is blameless in this matter. He saw the faults in his team and couldn't fix it.  I think his biggest failing was being blinded by Rondo's individual brilliance.

We had Rondo in the pre-season too but the team looked like what it is now - push the ball, distribute the ball, play hard D, no overly complicated plays.

You can extrapolate what you like as to what this says about Doc and/or Rondo.

At the very least this shows that Rondo is capable of existing (and doing well) in a non-ball-dominant offense (to those who said he can't).

It's kind of frustrating we went away from that style of play (no matter whose fault it is).
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 02, 2013, 09:27:25 PM
Two things have disappointed me about Doc this year.

One, Doc has not found a way to use Terry as a potent offensive weapon. Some of this may be that Rondo and Terry don't mesh, but it's Doc's job to fix that.

Second, we are still incredibly one-dimensional at the end of games. That Pierce high screen play is no longer effective, because (a) defenses anticipate it and (b) Pierce is not the player he was a few years ago. We have new personnel, but Doc hasn't devised any new (effective) end of game sets.

I think that if Doc had done a better job with just these two things, we would probably be 5 games better than we are now.

The Rondo injury will be interesting, because it presents an opportunity for Doc to adapt. We'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: TitleMaster on February 02, 2013, 09:58:21 PM
Second, we are still incredibly one-dimensional at the end of games. That Pierce high screen play is no longer effective, because (a) defenses anticipate it and (b) Pierce is not the player he was a few years ago. We have new personnel, but Doc hasn't devised any new (effective) end of game sets.

Problem is that there's no excuse for this. Everyone knows that Pierce was entering the twilight of his career, last season. Doc should have thought about this issue back in 2010, not 2012. And thus, have already devised game sets to take into account the changing players on the roster. Doc is not a chess player, like Riley or Pop, he's a one trick pony and he continues in that vein.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: OttawaCeltic on February 02, 2013, 10:43:46 PM
Both Doc and Rondo are overrated.

The 2008 championship squad was stacked. Posey, PJ Brown, Powe, House, Cassell, TA, Big Baby, and for kicks, Scalabrine, supported the starting five of PP, RA, KP, KG, and Rondo. I believe many coaches would have won a title with that many qualified subs for every position. If anything, our sixth man Big Game James Posey, deserves a heck of a lot of credit of his untiring hustle and clutch plays during the '08 run.

And finally, when the shots are falling, then Rondo has his monster games of finding the open man for the high assists, or driving in the lane for a mini-dream shake layup. The was the story of the last three playoff runs but just as in the Jim O'Brien world of the three point bombers, if those shots don't fall, then the entire offense becomes a sludge-fest with Rondo at the helm.

Tru dat, Tru dat. I should make a thread upon this statement...
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Clench123 on February 02, 2013, 10:58:02 PM
Doc's post game interview

Re: How well Jason Terry and Leandro Barbosa played together:
"We kind of let them play. I called the one time-out and they kept asking, ‘What are we running?’ I said, ‘I have no idea. Just go out and space the floor and play. And play through it. And I think Jason loves to play that way; I think LB clearly likes to play that way, and they just read each other extremely well. We try to keep them on the floor at the same time."


this has to be the comment of the year. haha

Is this all this guy says at huddles??

All kidding aside, without rondo it doesn't have to be rocket science anymore. Guys have so much freedom out there and they are executing harmoniously

That is a great coaching strategy in case you don't know

yeah, sad he did not let them do that when rondo was playing huh?

Yea, like we know about everything he says in all the huddles
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: BballTim on February 02, 2013, 11:42:32 PM
And finally, when the shots are falling, then Rondo has his monster games of finding the open man for the high assists, or driving in the lane for a mini-dream shake layup. The was the story of the last three playoff runs but just as in the Jim O'Brien world of the three point bombers, if those shots don't fall, then the entire offense becomes a sludge-fest with Rondo at the helm.

  I don't think an offense looking bad if nobody's making shots is in any way specific to Rondo-led teams.

When the shots don't fall ... you take it to the hole, or you help others, to take it to the paint by setting screens & getting in an opponent's face. The problem is that Rondo's game doesn't adapt in that situation, he still looks for that assist during a poor shooting night. Then, you have a game, lopsided by poor shot attempts.

  You're saying it's generally the job of the point guard to set picks so other players can get to the rim?
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Galeto on February 02, 2013, 11:50:13 PM
Keeping it simple.

I hope we do that after Rondo comes back.

If this continues Rondo won't be here next year. All the things this team has been doing well over the past three games CAN'T be done with Rondo. He slows things down, he gambles and relaxes on defense, he doesn't trust his teammates to handle the ball.

I'm with those who think it's Doc's playbook that dictated the Rondo-Celtic playstyle, not Rondo.

I don't think so at all.  You think Doc wanted only Rondo to have the ball all the time?  To use up so many possessions dribbling around while his teammates stand around doing nothing?  To not take advantage of the new speed he had on the wing by not passing the ball up ahead? If he did, he's one of the most incompetent, feckless coaches who has ever existed.  I think his biggest problem was that he couldn't rein in the ball hogging monster he created in Rondo.  He just let too much slide. 

I remember the first game Rondo returned from his two game suspension, he played the first quarter like I always hoped he would: throwing the ball up ahead, attacking, not being a ball stopper. I thought maybe he had learned something by watching his teammates play without him.  All that went away after his first rest as he went back to hogging the ball.

Doc is already on record as saying hes the reason rondo has the ball as much as he does so you can't deny its doc.

So if Rondo wanted to play differently, like say, throwing the ball up ahead once in awhile, or creating good ball movement in half court sets, Doc would have put a stop to it?  I don't think Doc is blameless in this matter. He saw the faults in his team and couldn't fix it.  I think his biggest failing was being blinded by Rondo's individual brilliance.

We had Rondo in the pre-season too but the team looked like what it is now - push the ball, distribute the ball, play hard D, no overly complicated plays.

You can extrapolate what you like as to what this says about Doc and/or Rondo.

At the very least this shows that Rondo is capable of existing (and doing well) in a non-ball-dominant offense (to those who said he can't).

It's kind of frustrating we went away from that style of play (no matter whose fault it is).

You're referencing pre-season?  Even taken at face value, I don't doubt that Rondo has the ability to be an effective uptempo decision maker.  He just doesn't.  In his first few seasons, he didn't have the status to hold onto the ball and kill ball movement so he didn't.  I really liked that version of Rondo.  Ever since he's been given complete freedom to do whatever he wants, he's become the biggest ball hog in the game. 
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: BballTim on February 02, 2013, 11:57:38 PM
Keeping it simple.

I hope we do that after Rondo comes back.

If this continues Rondo won't be here next year. All the things this team has been doing well over the past three games CAN'T be done with Rondo. He slows things down, he gambles and relaxes on defense, he doesn't trust his teammates to handle the ball.

I'm with those who think it's Doc's playbook that dictated the Rondo-Celtic playstyle, not Rondo.

I don't think so at all.  You think Doc wanted only Rondo to have the ball all the time?  To use up so many possessions dribbling around while his teammates stand around doing nothing?  To not take advantage of the new speed he had on the wing by not passing the ball up ahead? If he did, he's one of the most incompetent, feckless coaches who has ever existed.  I think his biggest problem was that he couldn't rein in the ball hogging monster he created in Rondo.  He just let too much slide. 

I remember the first game Rondo returned from his two game suspension, he played the first quarter like I always hoped he would: throwing the ball up ahead, attacking, not being a ball stopper. I thought maybe he had learned something by watching his teammates play without him.  All that went away after his first rest as he went back to hogging the ball.

Doc is already on record as saying hes the reason rondo has the ball as much as he does so you can't deny its doc.

So if Rondo wanted to play differently, like say, throwing the ball up ahead once in awhile, or creating good ball movement in half court sets, Doc would have put a stop to it?  I don't think Doc is blameless in this matter. He saw the faults in his team and couldn't fix it.  I think his biggest failing was being blinded by Rondo's individual brilliance.

  I can't believe that anyone who watches games on a regular basis claims that Rondo never throws the ball up ahead in transition. Even the people who don't like Rondo should have seen all the turnovers he's had this year from trying to force passes to players who are racing towards the basket.
Title: Re: Who said Doc isn't a great coach?
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on February 03, 2013, 01:28:51 PM
He isn't a great coach. He is a cheerleader.....an assistant, and good #2......KG runs this team....doc cannot tell them what to do, doc hated rebounders for the longest time...didn't understand the value......nor that rebounding is the #1 form of defense......lost tony allen in place of marquis danials....who is also gone..because he was not too good....look at TA now......remember when TA and rondo would run the floor together........who does that now...? No one.....Doc used rondo wrong...doc didn't coach or run rondo, pp, kg......ray....doc only dogs out guys he didn't care for...and that was too many....has a closed mind about rookies, overplays the old guard, always has, always will.....and you know it....should sign birdman.....put kg where he WANTS TO  BE...at forward......