CelticsStrong

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: kgainez on January 26, 2013, 01:11:52 AM

Title: I don't blame the players
Post by: kgainez on January 26, 2013, 01:11:52 AM
any more. at all.

Gracious. Are they inconsistent? Absolutely, but one thing I've noticed is if one guy gets going, the rest of them get going. I do believe they are into each other and pulling for the success of one another (think about how an early JG dunk gets them going).

Doc...is a great guy I'm sure. But if I were Courtney Lee, Jeff Green or even Jason Terry tonight, I would go into the locker room and laugh too. How could you not play them more? How could you not create plays for them WHEN IT MATTERS MOST? How do you let them get you back 10 points only to let your Captain come in and mess everything up? AND YOU NEVER SIT HIM!

Everyone wants to bash Rondo, but he's TRYING. I really do think he is. Bad passes, bad turnovers, cuz he's trying to FORCE playing with these guys. Who does he always pass poorly to? Bass or Pierce because he's trying to get them into the game. He rarely fumbles oops with Wilcox, Green, AB.

Doc is underutilizing his talent. AND ALL THE PLAYERS KNOW! You don't think the players aren't AT LEAST subconsciously blaming PP? And Doc cannot be respected because it's a glaring problem and he will not correct it. Nor will he correct the problem with Bass. I mean...Korver took 8 threes before we put our best defender on him. PP obviously could not guard Josh Smith.

Doc is either hopeful, reliant, loyal or stuck in the past. But he needs to speed up to 2013. You have a team built to run and your starters RARELY do that unless it's Rondo and/or AB. Your ENTIRE 2nd unit runs and performs well...and have really been bailing us out in most games.

Coach has to do better. And PP has to as well (though I think he's coming around). My point is people are saying everyone lacks mental toughness and they're just babies, etc. etc. I disagree. It's just really hard to respect a guy who will not face reality. It's hard to do spectacular things when (I assume) you're told not to be doing them (I heard someone put it like the offense is micromanaged).

How would you feel? I mean you CLEARLY have the talent. IF you were a bench player? A guy who got 17 and 6 on tonight? Or a guy who has made 7 points in under 3 minutes before? How would you feel? Serious question.
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: get_banners on January 26, 2013, 01:43:43 AM
the rotations tonight were baffling and did exhibit one of doc's main problems: his reliance on the old guys. the bench was destroying atlanta. lee, green, terry...we were running the hawks into the ground. its not like those guys don't have the stamina to play 35 minutes tonight. honestly, tonight was a prime night to not put the starters back in unless the bench started screwing up.
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: Ogaju on January 26, 2013, 01:47:54 AM
I am not a BB expert but I am smart enough to know and post here that Doc Rivers is not a great coach, I really dont know how he got the reputation of being a great coach.

We almost lost the 2008 championship when we should have been overwhelming favorites to beat the Lakers. Doc was lucky in that finals because almost all the successful comebacks were based on adjustments that where forced on him and not those that were voluntarily made.

He is overly dependent on his star players, and will ride them until they drop.

A great coach is a confident coach that will go against convention when necessary.

I dont get why a starter is such a big deal in the NBA when it is a sport that is based on rotating players. Who cares who starts the game, really? You need to get the rotation that gets wins not who happens to roll out for the opening tip.

Bench Pierce and get Green in there who can actually run with Rondo... the crafty Pierce can come in to finish the
the opposition...
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: timobusa on January 26, 2013, 01:49:21 AM
any more. at all.

Gracious. Are they inconsistent? Absolutely, but one thing I've noticed is if one guy gets going, the rest of them get going. I do believe they are into each other and pulling for the success of one another (think about how an early JG dunk gets them going).

Doc...is a great guy I'm sure. But if I were Courtney Lee, Jeff Green or even Jason Terry tonight, I would go into the locker room and laugh too. How could you not play them more? How could you not create plays for them WHEN IT MATTERS MOST? How do you let them get you back 10 points only to let your Captain come in and mess everything up? AND YOU NEVER SIT HIM!

Everyone wants to bash Rondo, but he's TRYING. I really do think he is. Bad passes, bad turnovers, cuz he's trying to FORCE playing with these guys. Who does he always pass poorly to? Bass or Pierce because he's trying to get them into the game. He rarely fumbles oops with Wilcox, Green, AB.

Doc is underutilizing his talent. AND ALL THE PLAYERS KNOW! You don't think the players aren't AT LEAST subconsciously blaming PP? And Doc cannot be respected because it's a glaring problem and he will not correct it. Nor will he correct the problem with Bass. I mean...Korver took 8 threes before we put our best defender on him. PP obviously could not guard Josh Smith.

Doc is either hopeful, reliant, loyal or stuck in the past. But he needs to speed up to 2013. You have a team built to run and your starters RARELY do that unless it's Rondo and/or AB. Your ENTIRE 2nd unit runs and performs well...and have really been bailing us out in most games.

Coach has to do better. And PP has to as well (though I think he's coming around). My point is people are saying everyone lacks mental toughness and they're just babies, etc. etc. I disagree. It's just really hard to respect a guy who will not face reality. It's hard to do spectacular things when (I assume) you're told not to be doing them (I heard someone put it like the offense is micromanaged).

How would you feel? I mean you CLEARLY have the talent. IF you were a bench player? A guy who got 17 and 6 on tonight? Or a guy who has made 7 points in under 3 minutes before? How would you feel? Serious question.

ALL OF THIS!!!!!
Took the words right out of my mouth!
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: kgainez on January 26, 2013, 01:52:30 AM
I posted this and didn't realize it was so long. sorry lol
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: kgainez on January 26, 2013, 01:56:57 AM
and after writing this post, it's hard for me to even blame PP now. He's only being run into the ground by the coach. Imagine trying to tell a guy 'no thx' but he's forcing it on you, telling you you can do it, etc. I think PP knows...especially after these last 2 games. He's passed on shots he would probably take.

Doc has probably lost the players, but can you blame them?
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: Tr1boy on January 26, 2013, 03:57:47 AM
Doc is to blame for several things, such as not getting Rondo's ego in check.

But what is he do with guys like Pierce? bench them? He gets paid 15 million a year to execute on the court
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 26, 2013, 08:50:54 AM
Doc is to blame for several things, such as not getting Rondo's ego in check.

But what is he do with guys like Pierce? bench them? He gets paid 15 million a year to execute on the court

when he is off you sit him. maybe doc needs to grow some cajones. also, how about not pounding that square peg into a round hole putting him in iso at the end?
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 26, 2013, 08:57:34 AM
I blame old age.   Several of our core players are older than dirt.
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: clover on January 26, 2013, 09:05:19 AM
Pierce is coming around?
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: bopna on January 26, 2013, 09:24:36 AM
Doc has to really do a better job on PP and KG as well.. He is afraid to hurt the captains feelings to the detriment of the team.

Remember last season when Ray got hurt and Doc was forced to start Ab and it worked.  but before that fans already saw it would work but doc woild not listen and rode wiyh Ray until the injury happened..then when ray was ready to play, fans insisted to let ray come off the bench but what did the genius Doc do?...well he started Ray and we freakin lost that game...it became obvious AB had to start so Ray obliged and came out on the papers that he was willing to come off the bench so doc did the team a favor but not until ray voluntarilydid it himself.

The point is doc needs to suck it up and be like pop for once...i suppose it  would never happen until PP gets injured or something but the fact is tjis team is toast if we will continue to go with what is obviously not working.
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: ssspence on January 26, 2013, 09:29:27 AM
I blame old age.   Several of our core players are older than dirt.

They are. I don't believe the Cs should even consider the idea of winning back to backs with this squad. So I don't really agree with the OPs finer points, I would say they should take a page out of Pop's book and play the bench the majority of minutes in such instances.
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on January 26, 2013, 09:49:42 AM
PP and KG are overplayed, as usual....kg said he doesn't want to play center...look where he is.....fab melo....waiting.....why..? You'll never get better in the D league than the D league....you only get to be NBA by being in the NBA....doc brings up jason vernado....WHY...? We drafted melo, because we need an energetic center/rebounder/shot blocker...we have one right there.....put kg to forward, where he is happiest.....

  PP, is he tired or what.....front rim kid and cannot cover anyone...Terry and green have no clue on D, and only now and then O......Doc needs to be replaced....he has only limited skills....he always goes to the same routine.
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: Roy H. on January 26, 2013, 09:51:56 AM
The players are the ones who aren't getting it done on the floor.  They've got to bear primary responsibility.

Doc has sucked this season, though.  He doesn't have his team motivated, he isn't utilizing a lot of his players properly, and his play-calling has been mediocre at best.
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: kgainez on January 26, 2013, 01:00:06 PM
Doc has to really do a better job on PP and KG as well.. He is afraid to hurt the captains feelings to the detriment of the team.

Remember last season when Ray got hurt and Doc was forced to start Ab and it worked.  but before that fans already saw it would work but doc woild not listen and rode wiyh Ray until the injury happened..then when ray was ready to play, fans insisted to let ray come off the bench but what did the genius Doc do?...well he started Ray and we freakin lost that game...it became obvious AB had to start so Ray obliged and came out on the papers that he was willing to come off the bench so doc did the team a favor but not until ray voluntarilydid it himself.

The point is doc needs to suck it up and be like pop for once...i suppose it  would never happen until PP gets injured or something but the fact is tjis team is toast if we will continue to go with what is obviously not working.

At this point can you really blame PP? I mean, he's being played, so he has to play, right? These last 2 games PP has passed up on shots. He knows.
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: kgainez on January 26, 2013, 01:05:08 PM
The players are the ones who aren't getting it done on the floor.  They've got to bear primary responsibility.

Doc has sucked this season, though.  He doesn't have his team motivated, he isn't utilizing a lot of his players properly, and his play-calling has been mediocre at best.

I think these are two contradictory statements. How can you say players have to bear responsibility and then go on to say he doesn't have the team motivated and isn't utilizing them properly?

Roy, I'd really like to know how you would feel...27 years old. You just shot 50% from the field, 100% of your free throws, made lots of hustle plays, got some steals, got some rebounds, helped rebuild a lead to 10 in the 4th quarter -- only to get pulled and sat to watch it evaporate. You'd REALLY be motivated to play for this coach? You'd REALLY be interested in giving your all?

That's like working hard for a promotion but your boss just won't promote you...gives you a list of things to do and you do it, still no promotion...or WORSE...promotes someone else.

I think we fail to realize these people are human.
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: Roy H. on January 26, 2013, 01:09:23 PM
The players are the ones who aren't getting it done on the floor.  They've got to bear primary responsibility.

Doc has sucked this season, though.  He doesn't have his team motivated, he isn't utilizing a lot of his players properly, and his play-calling has been mediocre at best.

I think these are two contradictory statements. How can you say players have to bear responsibility and then go on to say he doesn't have the team motivated and isn't utilizing them properly?

Roy, I'd really like to know how you would feel...27 years old. You just shot 50% from the field, 100% of your free throws, made lots of hustle plays, got some steals, got some rebounds, helped rebuild a lead to 10 in the 4th quarter -- only to get pulled and sat to watch it evaporate. You'd REALLY be motivated to play for this coach? You'd REALLY be interested in giving your all?

That's like working hard for a promotion but your boss just won't promote you...gives you a list of things to do and you do it, still no promotion...or WORSE...promotes someone else.

I think we fail to realize these people are human.

It's the job of professionals to be self-motivated, and prepared to produce when called upon.  Doc isn't the one out there forcing bad shots, making mental mistakes, not playing defense, etc.  Aren't the multi-million dollar contracts motivation enough?  Aren't the cheering fans?  They need some guy in a suit to fire them up to do their jobs?

Regarding your analogy, if you get passed over for promotion and you then decide to sulk and slack off on your job, you decide to be fired.  Perhaps your boss does, too, but if you're not doing what you're paid to do, it's on you.
Title: Re: I don't blame the players
Post by: kgainez on January 26, 2013, 01:12:38 PM
The players are the ones who aren't getting it done on the floor.  They've got to bear primary responsibility.

Doc has sucked this season, though.  He doesn't have his team motivated, he isn't utilizing a lot of his players properly, and his play-calling has been mediocre at best.

I think these are two contradictory statements. How can you say players have to bear responsibility and then go on to say he doesn't have the team motivated and isn't utilizing them properly?

Roy, I'd really like to know how you would feel...27 years old. You just shot 50% from the field, 100% of your free throws, made lots of hustle plays, got some steals, got some rebounds, helped rebuild a lead to 10 in the 4th quarter -- only to get pulled and sat to watch it evaporate. You'd REALLY be motivated to play for this coach? You'd REALLY be interested in giving your all?

That's like working hard for a promotion but your boss just won't promote you...gives you a list of things to do and you do it, still no promotion...or WORSE...promotes someone else.

I think we fail to realize these people are human.

It's the job of professionals to be self-motivated, and prepared to produce when called upon.  Doc isn't the one out there forcing bad shots, making mental mistakes, not playing defense, etc.  Aren't the multi-million dollar contracts motivation enough?  Aren't the cheering fans?  They need some guy in a suit to fire them up to do their jobs?

Regarding your analogy, if you get passed over for promotion and you then decide to sulk and slack off on your job, you decide to be fired.  Perhaps your boss does, too, but if you're not doing what you're paid to do, it's on you.

and then THAT'S not what I asked.

I understand self-motivation. I get it. And I think for the guys to even continue to play like this is self-motivation. I mean, you make it seem like there's no use for the coach other than to draw up plays. And even that's been questionable.