CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: u2larkin04 on January 24, 2013, 12:33:03 AM
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Is it me, or since before this year, wasn't Rondo primarily known as a defensive point guard? I always remember him making big plays on defense, but it seems this year he's vanished. Obviously this has been well known this year, but why do you think this is all of a sudden?
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Like many star players, defensive consistency slowly drops off when asked to carry more offensive burden. Still capable of turning up the heat and being a dominant defensive PG when he feels like it.
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have to add in, playing a lot of minutes without a backup point guard
name the top three backup point guards rondo has had in his 6(?) years with team
this is off the head now no cheating
delonte west
sam cassell
jason terry
?
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have to add in, playing a lot of minutes without a backup point guard
name the top three backup point guards rondo has had in his 6(?) years with team
this is off the head now no cheating
delonte west
sam cassell
jason terry
?
I'd think about Dooling just cuz i like the dude
And yes rondo's D has dropped like mentioned previously bc of minutes played and being expected to do more on offense. He has become more offense minded when before he was more balanced when the offense was ran thru Pierce, KG and Ray...but now rondo has to take and HIT(which he has been) those jumpers.....total different mindset than previous years..HE has to score
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have to add in, playing a lot of minutes without a backup point guard
name the top three backup point guards rondo has had in his 6(?) years with team
this is off the head now no cheating
delonte west
sam cassell
jason terry
?
Nate played a lot, and Dooling did play a lot last year. Others not so much.
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so delonte was injured on second tour, first time lots of turnovers and nowhere near as efficient running team
sam cassell had 1 good game as i remember it
dooling did a good job but wasn't really a pg
nate is nate, funny listening to scal describe nate
can't we get an andre miller type backup for him someday
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Yeah, his defense has been awful. He simply doesn't bring it on the defensive end. He doesn't make the effort to fight through screens and way too often he lets his man go by him so he can try to poke it from behind. Another thing I've noticed more this year is that he doesn't contest the jumper like he should. I often see his hands down on the shooter.
Like many star players, defensive consistency slowly drops off when asked to carry more offensive burden. Still capable of turning up the heat and being a dominant defensive PG when he feels like it.
I have a major issue with this. How can a guy be your franchise player when you can't count on him every single night? At the end of the day a team takes the identity of it's star, which is probably why you see us so inconsistent.
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Like many star players, defensive consistency slowly drops off when asked to carry more offensive burden. Still capable of turning up the heat and being a dominant defensive PG when he feels like it.
When exactly did we start asking him to carry "more offensive burden", because I can't detect any major differences in his contribution over the last 3-4 years or so.
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Like many star players, defensive consistency slowly drops off when asked to carry more offensive burden. Still capable of turning up the heat and being a dominant defensive PG when he feels like it.
When exactly did we start asking him to carry "more offensive burden", because I can't detect any major differences in his contribution over the last 3-4 years or so.
Agreed. I don't think his defense has anything to do with the offensive burden he's carrying... OK, maybe slightly, but it's a meaningless excuse on my book.
KG and Pierce still carry the bulk of our offensive burden, yet they at least play something that resembles defense, while KG excels at it.
I'd have more sympathy for Rondo if he was actually pushing up the tempo, running the floor constantly, being aggressive offensively, but he can't do even that much. He loves to walk the ball up the floor, pound the basketball milking the shot clock, then pass it to KG/Pierce and let them go to work. Oversimplification, I know, but I really think the offensive burden excuse is way overused.
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I'm honestly not sure any player carries more of an offensive burden in the NBA than Rondo.
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I'm honestly not sure any player carries more of an offensive burden in the NBA than Rondo.
I'm saying this because I'm not sure exactly how much of Kobe's burden Kobe is just creating.
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I'm honestly not sure any player carries more of an offensive burden in the NBA than Rondo.
I completely agree with this...
But this...
Like many star players, defensive consistency slowly drops off when asked to carry more offensive burden. Still capable of turning up the heat and being a dominant defensive PG when he feels like it.
When exactly did we start asking him to carry "more offensive burden", because I can't detect any major differences in his contribution over the last 3-4 years or so.
Makes no sense to me. Rondo has the ball in his hand 75% of the time we are on offense, runs every play, commands everything single thing about the offense and does so at big minutes while also taking more shots and averaging more points. He is our offense quarterback, of course he has a great offensive burden on him.
No excuse for his defense, but to say that he isn't carrying this greater offensive burden, especially now without the presence of Ray Allen in the starting line up, makes absolutely zero sense.
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Like many star players, defensive consistency slowly drops off when asked to carry more offensive burden. Still capable of turning up the heat and being a dominant defensive PG when he feels like it.
When exactly did we start asking him to carry "more offensive burden", because I can't detect any major differences in his contribution over the last 3-4 years or so.
Agreed. I don't think his defense has anything to do with the offensive burden he's carrying... OK, maybe slightly, but it's a meaningless excuse on my book.
KG and Pierce still carry the bulk of our offensive burden, yet they at least play something that resembles defense, while KG excels at it.
I'd have more sympathy for Rondo if he was actually pushing up the tempo, running the floor constantly, being aggressive offensively, but he can't do even that much. He loves to walk the ball up the floor, pound the basketball milking the shot clock, then pass it to KG/Pierce and let them go to work. Oversimplification, I know, but I really think the offensive burden excuse is way overused.
I think you'll have a hard time convincing very many people that Paul Pierce's overall defense has been better than Rondo's this season.
KG's defense is still impressive, but he's been having way more lapses on that end of the floor this year than any fans seem to be willing to admit.
Once you start looking for players that play great defense on every possession of every game, you'll find that these mythical players don't exist.
Of course, these mythical players are the ones that many seem to be using to compare to Rondo's defensive play.
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I'd like to see Doc reduce Rondo's minutes to 33-34 minutes per game.
I think his defense and defensive consistency will both improve in lesser minutes. Doc is asking too much of Rondo in this 37-38 minute a night role.
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Like many star players, defensive consistency slowly drops off when asked to carry more offensive burden. Still capable of turning up the heat and being a dominant defensive PG when he feels like it.
When exactly did we start asking him to carry "more offensive burden", because I can't detect any major differences in his contribution over the last 3-4 years or so.
Agreed. I don't think his defense has anything to do with the offensive burden he's carrying... OK, maybe slightly, but it's a meaningless excuse on my book.
KG and Pierce still carry the bulk of our offensive burden, yet they at least play something that resembles defense, while KG excels at it.
I'd have more sympathy for Rondo if he was actually pushing up the tempo, running the floor constantly, being aggressive offensively, but he can't do even that much. He loves to walk the ball up the floor, pound the basketball milking the shot clock, then pass it to KG/Pierce and let them go to work. Oversimplification, I know, but I really think the offensive burden excuse is way overused.
I think you'll have a hard time convincing very many people that Paul Pierce's overall defense has been better than Rondo's this season.
KG's defense is still impressive, but he's been having way more lapses on that end of the floor this year than any fans seem to be willing to admit.
Once you start looking for players that play great defense on every possession of every game, you'll find that these mythical players don't exist.
Of course, these mythical players are the ones that many seem to be using to compare to Rondo's defensive play.
Except Pierce and Garnett are in their late thirties, and Rondo is supposedly entering his prime.
Garnett and Pierce carried virtually all of the offensive burden in 2008, yet still played defense with effort and reasonable success.
Of course, you can argue that it's easier when the offense splits three ways (Garnett/Allen/Pierce), but it's at least an open question for discussion, and I wouldn't be in a hurry to give Rondo a free pass on this.
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Like many star players, defensive consistency slowly drops off when asked to carry more offensive burden. Still capable of turning up the heat and being a dominant defensive PG when he feels like it.
When exactly did we start asking him to carry "more offensive burden", because I can't detect any major differences in his contribution over the last 3-4 years or so.
Agreed. I don't think his defense has anything to do with the offensive burden he's carrying... OK, maybe slightly, but it's a meaningless excuse on my book.
KG and Pierce still carry the bulk of our offensive burden, yet they at least play something that resembles defense, while KG excels at it.
I'd have more sympathy for Rondo if he was actually pushing up the tempo, running the floor constantly, being aggressive offensively, but he can't do even that much. He loves to walk the ball up the floor, pound the basketball milking the shot clock, then pass it to KG/Pierce and let them go to work. Oversimplification, I know, but I really think the offensive burden excuse is way overused.
I think you'll have a hard time convincing very many people that Paul Pierce's overall defense has been better than Rondo's this season.
KG's defense is still impressive, but he's been having way more lapses on that end of the floor this year than any fans seem to be willing to admit.
Once you start looking for players that play great defense on every possession of every game, you'll find that these mythical players don't exist.
Of course, these mythical players are the ones that many seem to be using to compare to Rondo's defensive play.
To compare with KG and Paul, at least they always look like they're trying to defend the guy in front of them. Paul may be slacking off on his rotations, he's still making the effort one-on-one. KG may get beat, but he's still making the effort. Rondo doesn't seem to consistently make that effort defensively, especially on pick-n-rolls, and that's something he's been doing forever.
Mike
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Like many star players, defensive consistency slowly drops off when asked to carry more offensive burden. Still capable of turning up the heat and being a dominant defensive PG when he feels like it.
The problem is Rondo doesn't make up for his defensive lapses by scoring 18-20+ points a night.
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Like many star players, defensive consistency slowly drops off when asked to carry more offensive burden. Still capable of turning up the heat and being a dominant defensive PG when he feels like it.
The problem is Rondo doesn't make up for his defensive lapses by scoring 18-20+ points a night.
No, he does it by putting up 13 and 11 instead.
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I think he's closer to the point in his career to where Pierce was pre-2008, when he appeared locked into building his stats and there seemed often to be an unspoken understanding between opposing stars that if one didn't defend to ferociously, the other wouldn't either.
That's just the code that Bradley has got flack from opponents for violating, and something Rondo never used to give into.
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Like many star players, defensive consistency slowly drops off when asked to carry more offensive burden. Still capable of turning up the heat and being a dominant defensive PG when he feels like it.
When exactly did we start asking him to carry "more offensive burden", because I can't detect any major differences in his contribution over the last 3-4 years or so.
Agreed. I don't think his defense has anything to do with the offensive burden he's carrying... OK, maybe slightly, but it's a meaningless excuse on my book.
KG and Pierce still carry the bulk of our offensive burden, yet they at least play something that resembles defense, while KG excels at it.
I'd have more sympathy for Rondo if he was actually pushing up the tempo, running the floor constantly, being aggressive offensively, but he can't do even that much. He loves to walk the ball up the floor, pound the basketball milking the shot clock, then pass it to KG/Pierce and let them go to work. Oversimplification, I know, but I really think the offensive burden excuse is way overused.
I think you'll have a hard time convincing very many people that Paul Pierce's overall defense has been better than Rondo's this season.
KG's defense is still impressive, but he's been having way more lapses on that end of the floor this year than any fans seem to be willing to admit.
Once you start looking for players that play great defense on every possession of every game, you'll find that these mythical players don't exist.
Of course, these mythical players are the ones that many seem to be using to compare to Rondo's defensive play.
To compare with KG and Paul, at least they always look like they're trying to defend the guy in front of them. Paul may be slacking off on his rotations, he's still making the effort one-on-one. KG may get beat, but he's still making the effort. Rondo doesn't seem to consistently make that effort defensively, especially on pick-n-rolls, and that's something he's been doing forever.
Mike
All I can say in response to that is that it's a matter of perception. Rondo has gained an--unearned, in my opinion--reputation as a lazy defender around here. People are now looking for that in his game. The more they look, the more they see.
I'm not trying to disparage a couple of legends, but I've seen plenty of defensive plays by both Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett where it looked to me like they weren't making their best effort on the play. However, having watched enough NBA basketball to understand that other talented NBA players can routinely make defenders look like they aren't trying on defense, I don't call them out as lazy bums every time I see it. I accept it as part of the game, and take solace in the fact that lately the Boston Celtics have been improving their vaunted defense as a team.
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his defense was mentioned in a topic I opened, and his defense has gotten worse, I'll make a mixtape to support my case..it's mind boggling really...
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However, having watched enough NBA basketball to understand that other talented NBA players can routinely make defenders look like they aren't trying on defense, I don't call them out as lazy bums every time I see it. I accept it as part of the game, and take solace in the fact that lately the Boston Celtics have been improving their vaunted defense as a team.
I have no doubt that this happens. But when it happens routinely, seemingly at will, and not necessarily only by the most supremely talented NBA players, then I think it's a problem.
And yes, Pierce and Garnett have been as bad as Rondo this season, but they're not 27 years old either.
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Rondo is not having a good year all-around. At least for his standards. I don't know what is wrong with him, but there is something definitely wrong with him.
His defensive rating is 103. Which is still GOOD, and above average, but well below is 99 mark last year. He also doesn't get as many steals as he did 2 years ago.
His shooting percentages are up from last year, but still down compared to 2009 and 2010.
His usage rate this year is a career high. His assist percentage and assists per 48 are down from last season.
His turnovers are a career high. His free throws attempts are a career low.
I don't know what is going on with Rondo, and he is still playing like a GOOD basketball player. Yet, somehow, he has regressed from his productivity in the past couple of years, when he SHOULD be getting better.
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Rondo is not having a good year all-around. At least for his standards. I don't know what is wrong with him, but there is something definitely wrong with him.
His defensive rating is 103. Which is still GOOD, and above average, but well below is 99 mark last year. He also doesn't get as many steals as he did 2 years ago.
His shooting percentages are up from last year, but still down compared to 2009 and 2010.
His usage rate this year is a career high. His assist percentage and assists per 48 are down from last season.
His turnovers are a career high. His free throws attempts are a career low.
I don't know what is going on with Rondo, and he is still playing like a GOOD basketball player. Yet, somehow, he has regressed from his productivity in the past couple of years, when he SHOULD be getting better.
My theory is that he's at his best when he's playing next to a great offensive player who commands defensive attention and opens up space. Neither Pierce nor Garnett fit the bill anymore.
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The assists numbers look good and could be better if guys made shots.
Still based off the playoffs last year, there was MVP talk in regards to him before the season.
He has not lived up to the expectations and it's very disappointing.
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Rondo is not having a good year all-around. At least for his standards. I don't know what is wrong with him, but there is something definitely wrong with him.
His defensive rating is 103. Which is still GOOD, and above average, but well below is 99 mark last year. He also doesn't get as many steals as he did 2 years ago.
His shooting percentages are up from last year, but still down compared to 2009 and 2010.
His usage rate this year is a career high. His assist percentage and assists per 48 are down from last season.
His turnovers are a career high. His free throws attempts are a career low.
I don't know what is going on with Rondo, and he is still playing like a GOOD basketball player. Yet, somehow, he has regressed from his productivity in the past couple of years, when he SHOULD be getting better.
I'd be somewhat curious about how they calculate defensive rating.
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I'd be somewhat curious about how they calculate defensive rating.
Should be points allowed by offensive counterpart per 100 possessions, although 103 seems a bit too high to be above average, so I'm curious about this as well.
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I'd be somewhat curious about how they calculate defensive rating.
Should be points allowed by offensive counterpart per 100 possessions, although 103 seems a bit too high to be above average, so I'm curious about this as well.
That's what I'm thinking as well, which is going to be off for Rondo since he spends quite a bit of time covering shooting guards. His defensive numbers from synergy sports are fairly similar to last years and that's based on who he covers on a particular play, not what the opposing pg does when he's in the game.
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Rondo started the season off brilliantly. Then dropped off around the time he got hurt. Hasn't regained his early season form yet. He needs to get back to that.
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Rondo started the season off brilliantly. Then dropped off around the time he got hurt. Hasn't regained his early season form yet. He needs to get back to that.
This ^
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Rondo is not having a good year all-around. At least for his standards. I don't know what is wrong with him, but there is something definitely wrong with him.
His defensive rating is 103. Which is still GOOD, and above average, but well below is 99 mark last year. He also doesn't get as many steals as he did 2 years ago.
His shooting percentages are up from last year, but still down compared to 2009 and 2010.
His usage rate this year is a career high. His assist percentage and assists per 48 are down from last season.
His turnovers are a career high. His free throws attempts are a career low.
I don't know what is going on with Rondo, and he is still playing like a GOOD basketball player. Yet, somehow, he has regressed from his productivity in the past couple of years, when he SHOULD be getting better.
Rondo (statwise) is performing better this year than he has in each of the past two years. His TO's are up .2 from last year, his steals are down .5 from two years ago and his assists are down .6 from last year.
Every other category has improved as compared to the last two seasons.
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I honestly think Bradley was the worst thing that happened to Rondo(perception wise). Now everyone sees how Bradley plays defense and compares it to Rondo when in reality AB would make almost anyone look bad.
I don't remember what user said it, but they had it right when they something like, "Rondo should tweet I'd never have a 7, 1, and 1 game." I'm sure if all Rondo had to do on offense was shoot corner 3's and run the baseline he would be a much better defender.
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Rondo started the season off brilliantly. Then dropped off around the time he got hurt. Hasn't regained his early season form yet. He needs to get back to that.
Yup, and this is one of the constant frustrations with Rondo's game.
Let me lay it out like this:
1. The skill that sets Rondo apart from other PGs is his combination of athleticism, hustle, and tenacity, particularly on defense and the boards. When Rondo is bringing this, he is as good as any PG in the league. Even though he isn't as good offensively as guys like Paul, Westbrook, and Irving, his ability to turn it up defensively and in the other phases of the game closes the gap on them.
2. When he loses his athleticism, hustle, or tenacity, he just has much less of an impact on the game, even if he is putting up nice stats. Even though he is an elite passer, his lack of elite shooting ability balances that out a bit, so he can't really match up with the other elite offensive PGs like Paul, Westbrook, Irving, etc. Those guys just are better offensive players overall, because of their more complete games.
3. He is a small guy playing in a league of giants. That generally makes injuries tough to avoid if he is playing aggressively, and throwing himself around. So, he has to choose between being as effective as he can be, or self preservation.
The upside to this is that he has learned enough self preservation to be able to turn it on for the playoffs. And that is when they really do need it most, and why he remains so hard to give up. But the downside is, its really frustrating to watch when its not the playoffs.
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I honestly think Bradley was the worst thing that happened to Rondo(perception wise). Now everyone sees how Bradley plays defense and compares it to Rondo when in reality AB would make almost anyone look bad.
I don't remember what user said it, but they had it right when they something like, "Rondo should tweet I'd never have a 7, 1, and 1 game." I'm sure if all Rondo had to do on offense was shoot corner 3's and run the baseline he would be a much better defender.
I don't accept this. There's no excuse for only playing at one end of the court.
'08 Pierce played championship-caliber defense despite carrying the biggest offensive burden for the team. '08 Garnett won a well-deserved DPOY along with pulling down his nightly 19/9. Allen stepped up his commitment to defense while being asked to run miles off of screens every night... on bad ankles. All of these players were older then than Rondo is now. What's his excuse again?
Full commitment at both ends of the court is a requirement for a successful team. If he can't play good defense because he's spending his energy on offense, then either he needs to get his butt in shape so he can or he needs to play for somebody else.
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Rondo started the season off brilliantly. Then dropped off around the time he got hurt. Hasn't regained his early season form yet. He needs to get back to that.
Yup, and this is one of the constant frustrations with Rondo's game.
Let me lay it out like this:
1. The skill that sets Rondo apart from other PGs is his combination of athleticism, hustle, and tenacity, particularly on defense and the boards. When Rondo is bringing this, he is as good as any PG in the league. Even though he isn't as good offensively as guys like Paul, Westbrook, and Irving, his ability to turn it up defensively and in the other phases of the game closes the gap on them.
2. When he loses his athleticism, hustle, or tenacity, he just has much less of an impact on the game, even if he is putting up nice stats. Even though he is an elite passer, his lack of elite shooting ability balances that out a bit, so he can't really match up with the other elite offensive PGs like Paul, Westbrook, Irving, etc. Those guys just are better offensive players overall, because of their more complete games.
3. He is a small guy playing in a league of giants. That generally makes injuries tough to avoid if he is playing aggressively, and throwing himself around. So, he has to choose between being as effective as he can be, or self preservation.
The upside to this is that he has learned enough self preservation to be able to turn it on for the playoffs. And that is when they really do need it most, and why he remains so hard to give up. But the downside is, its really frustrating to watch when its not the playoffs.
I agree that Paul may be a more complete offensive player than any of those guys, but I wouldn't call Westbrook and Irving more complete offensive players than Rondo. I don't agree that being a good scorer and a bad passer makes you more of a complete offensive player than being a good passer and not much of a scorer.