CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: droopdog7 on January 23, 2013, 11:00:41 PM
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Remember when our own fans didn't appreciate what ray bought to the table?
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/23/opponents-say-boston-celtics-do-miss-ray-allen/
Richard Hamilton (Chicago Bulls)
“They’re different. When you go into the game, you know with him, he’s coming off curls, he’s coming off pin downs. He really spaces the floor for Paul [Pierce] to go ahead and to what he do, for KG [Kevin Garnett] to do what he do. It was a guy that you never ever could not guard.”
Luol Deng (Chicago Bulls)
“It’s going to be difficult. Ray Allen takes so much attention and he gets guys shots. He made a big difference for them. You could always replace everyone. It’s just, how do you do it? It’s not going to be one guy. Don’t think that you’re going to bring one guy in and he’s going to just fill in the shoes. It takes a team effort and a team goes in a different direction, whether it’s Paul Pierce or Kevin or [Rajon] Rondo who are scoring more. I think people fall into, ‘This guy’s gone, so this guy has to be that guy.’ It’s never like that.
Tony Allen (Memphis Grizzlies)
“That’s a Hall of Fame kind of guy. So that right there just lets you know, they’re missing Ray. Period, point blank. They’re missing Ray.”
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ray was our number one option. even if he scores 0 pts, he would spread the floor like no other. Noone ever denied his impact for us, but eventually it would be time to move on. He is way too old and probably screws up rondo's development by being so slow in transition. Rondo needs speed demons, slashers, and other types of players on this team for him.
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Well, we're missing something...
...Maybe Danny could kick the tires with MIA?
I'd ALWAYS welcome Ray Allen back - especially now.
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I don't see this team's record being any better if Ray had come back. Ray was streaky like everyone else has been this season. Not need to even talk about his defense.
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc?
2012-13 Celtics after 41 games: 20-21
2011-12 Celtics after 41 games: 22-19
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I don't see this team's record being any better if Ray had come back. Ray was streaky like everyone else has been this season. Not need to even talk about his defense.
He may have seemed a bit streaky, at times.
But no one - even now - in the NBA evokes the same kind of fear as Ray Allen.
Case in point - one of my FAVORITE games from him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdJoT18nAs
He was like 2 for 14 that game...then he nailed THAT shot.....
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I dont think "that guy" will make our record better in any way. He will still be coming off the bench since his defense is suspect. Plus we have to run that dreaded "let him run through screens" play with him, which makes the offense even more stagnant.
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I don't see this team's record being any better if Ray had come back. Ray was streaky like everyone else has been this season. Not need to even talk about his defense.
He may have seemed a bit streaky, at times.
But no one - even now - in the NBA evokes the same kind of fear as Ray Allen.
Case in point - one of my FAVORITE games from him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdJoT18nAs
He was like 2 for 14 that game...then he nailed THAT shot.....
He also made the shot that forced OT.
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If anyone watched the Heat game today (I was just scouting, I swear!), he hit that dagger of a shot in OT... One of a kind.
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Look at the three players talking here.
All rivals with no love for the Cs.
TA still feels dissed by DA and hence the Cs. Basically saying "you screwed up not re-signing me", therefore, by the transitive property you screwed up with Judas.I buy the first part, but not the Judas part. We did all we could to sign Judas (short of giving him the 9 million he knew we would never give), but TA, while happy to be in Memphis still feels dissed (and rightfully so) by DA.
Hamilton, first at Detroit and now in Chicago strongly dislikes the Cs. He's a punk. Remember which Celtic had huge scratches on his arm and then wore the white long sleeve to protect it.Some irony there I think.
Deng also is a Bull, Hamilton's and Noah's teammates. No love lost on the Cs there.
By the way, while your checking on opnions on Judas, check what cHeat fans have been saying lately on their boards. No D, shouldn't be driving or trying to dish the ball because he turns the ball over. That's what THEY are saying.
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Unless Ray is now a 6'10 defensive minded big, I don't see it making that much of a difference
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Look at the three players talking here.
All rivals with no love for the Cs.
TA still feels dissed by DA and hence the Cs. Basically saying "you screwed up not re-signing me", therefore, by the transitive property you screwed up with Judas.I buy the first part, but not the Judas part. We did all we could to sign Judas (short of giving him the 9 million he knew we would never give), but TA, while happy to be in Memphis still feels dissed (and rightfully so) by DA.
Hamilton, first at Detroit and now in Chicago strongly dislikes the Cs. He's a punk. Remember which Celtic had huge scratches on his arm and then wore the white long sleeve to protect it.Some irony there I think.
Deng also is a Bull, Hamilton's and Noah's teammates. No love lost on the Cs there.
By the way, while your checking on opnions on Judas, check what cHeat fans have been saying lately on their boards. No D, shouldn't be driving or trying to dish the ball because he turns the ball over. That's what THEY are saying.
Nice observations. TP for you
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If Lee didn't start the season slumping from 3 and Jason Terry were more than a shadow of himself I'm pretty sure this would be a non-story.
This is the kind of narrative that writes itself. The Celtics are struggling therefore they miss Ray Allen.
Except the recent former Celtic the team misses most is probably a healthy Shaq or pre-injury Kendrick Perkins.
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we're 'missing' ray because Doc is running the same system that benefited the big 3 of kg, paul and ray.
now there's no ray but we're trying to do the same things without the same guys.
If Doc played more of an uptempo, running style, not as much half court stuff...or at least not the sets for Ray...then we'd be in a better place, i think.
he's got to run a new system that benefits the big 3 of kg, paul and RONDO.
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Wow, I just found this stat:
2011-2012 Celtics: 91.8 points per game scored, 89.3 points per game allowed
2012-2013 Celtics: 94.9 points per game scored, 96.0 points per game allowed
I don't think it's Ray's shooting we're missing.
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One would assume she was unable to find anyone who would claim that we miss him on the other end of the court...
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I do think we are missing his point production. We have yet to find anyone willing or capable to pick up the slack. With that said we still should be a better team then we have been.
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I was thinking about this the other day, and tried to figure out what exactly from Ray the team is missing.
As other posters have pointed out, it's not really showing up in the stats. It's not like this team didn't have long stretches of mediocre basketball when Ray was here (2010, 2012).
I would argue - off pure speculation - that what we miss from Ray is his professionalism. The day-in, day-out work he put into his game. Seems like this team is missing some of that.
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I was thinking about this the other day, and tried to figure out what exactly from Ray the team is missing.
As other posters have pointed out, it's not really showing up in the stats. It's not like this team didn't have long stretches of mediocre basketball when Ray was here (2010, 2012).
I would argue - off pure speculation - that what we miss from Ray is his professionalism. The day-in, day-out work he put into his game. Seems like this team is missing some of that.
Yes, I can see what you mean about the professionalism, but then he was here through the Donkey, Shrek and Shaq years, and supposedly this team was, like last year's, supposed to be improved because everyone was all about business.
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I do think we are missing his point production. We have yet to find anyone willing or capable to pick up the slack. With that said we still should be a better team then we have been.
No we aren't, the stats show we aren't. This team is missing defense and heart and talent and people willing to actually put in the effort to be a good team.
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Look at the three players talking here.
All rivals with no love for the Cs.
TA still feels dissed by DA and hence the Cs. Basically saying "you screwed up not re-signing me", therefore, by the transitive property you screwed up with Judas.I buy the first part, but not the Judas part. We did all we could to sign Judas (short of giving him the 9 million he knew we would never give), but TA, while happy to be in Memphis still feels dissed (and rightfully so) by DA.
Hamilton, first at Detroit and now in Chicago strongly dislikes the Cs. He's a punk. Remember which Celtic had huge scratches on his arm and then wore the white long sleeve to protect it.Some irony there I think.
Deng also is a Bull, Hamilton's and Noah's teammates. No love lost on the Cs there.
By the way, while your checking on opnions on Judas, check what cHeat fans have been saying lately on their boards. No D, shouldn't be driving or trying to dish the ball because he turns the ball over. That's what THEY are saying.
Not only that, but Allen knows Rip from his UConn days and played with TA here in Boston.
I've watched about 80% of the Heat's games this year and their defense has been really bad with Allen. He struggles to keep players in front of him, which causes others to rotate to help, this creates a lot of open looks (especially uncontested 3's for other teams) for teams. This could be a primary reason why the Heat has struggled mightily defending the 3 this year and our dead last in rebounding because players are constantly out of position because of the subsequent help D.
His shooting has also been down the last 2 months after a sizzling November to open up the season. In December and January he's shot below 40% from 3's and about 46% from the field.
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Wow, I just found this stat:
2011-2012 Celtics: 91.8 points per game scored, 89.3 points per game allowed
2012-2013 Celtics: 94.9 points per game scored, 96.0 points per game allowed
I don't think it's Ray's shooting we're missing.
Nailed it. At one point this season, I think about 15 games ago, our points allowed was 11 points more than last year. Thats a crazy crazy number.
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yup we miss ray... and if he had any brains he would miss us too....was wayyyyy more of a star here, fans liked him more, more minutes etc.
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I don't see this team's record being any better if Ray had come back. Ray was streaky like everyone else has been this season. Not need to even talk about his defense.
He may have seemed a bit streaky, at times.
But no one - even now - in the NBA evokes the same kind of fear as Ray Allen.
Case in point - one of my FAVORITE games from him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdJoT18nAs
He was like 2 for 14 that game...then he nailed THAT shot.....
soooo, his cruddy shooting put the Cs in the hole with the game on the line, and he finally makes a shot to win the game?
I can't tell if he helped or hurt us. Certainly made things dramatic.
;)
In any case -- we've crossed that bridge.
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we're 'missing' ray because Doc is running the same system that benefited the big 3 of kg, paul and ray.
Tommy Point for you!
Hamilton's comment is all about how Ray would make it easier for KG and Paul, but neither of those guys can do what they did 5 years ago. And Deng talks about how your can't just plug someone else in to replace Ray and keep doing the same things.
Mike
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Wow, I just found this stat:
2011-2012 Celtics: 91.8 points per game scored, 89.3 points per game allowed
2012-2013 Celtics: 94.9 points per game scored, 96.0 points per game allowed
I don't think it's Ray's shooting we're missing.
Nailed it. At one point this season, I think about 15 games ago, our points allowed was 11 points more than last year. Thats a crazy crazy number.
Yep, they really fell off a cliff defensively and that's really all the explanation that's necessary for why the team is struggling so badly this season.
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Wow, I just found this stat:
2011-2012 Celtics: 91.8 points per game scored, 89.3 points per game allowed
2012-2013 Celtics: 94.9 points per game scored, 96.0 points per game allowed
I don't think it's Ray's shooting we're missing.
Nailed it. At one point this season, I think about 15 games ago, our points allowed was 11 points more than last year. Thats a crazy crazy number.
Yep, they really fell off a cliff defensively and that's really all the explanation that's necessary for why the team is struggling so badly this season.
The defense is clearly #1, but you can't completely ignore the offense. In the 21 loses, Boston's scored over 90 points just 9 times. In the 20 wins, the team scored less than 90 only 3 times.
After the Cavs game, I saw Doc talking about how the Celtics have had these offensive lulls in the past but they used to get defensive stops to make up for it. From the way he said it, though, it was obvious that trying to fix the offensive lulls is not something Doc's ever focused that much on.
Mike
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I hate when posters start topics like "Boy [...]"
How profound.
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Shut up Tony Allen. You're not some 2013 Boston Celtics expert 'cuz you used to play for us and you managed to stop punching people in the head or destroying your knees on after-the-whistle dunks long enough to gain some sort of credibility as a NBA statesman. You live in Memphis.
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Shut up Tony Allen. You're not some 2013 Boston Celtics expert 'cuz you used to play for us and you managed to stop punching people in the head or destroying your knees on after-the-whistle dunks long enough to gain some sort of credibility as a NBA statesman. You live in Memphis.
It was Davis that punched a person, not Allen. But I agree with the general sentiment.
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Shut up Tony Allen. You're not some 2013 Boston Celtics expert 'cuz you used to play for us and you managed to stop punching people in the head or destroying your knees on after-the-whistle dunks long enough to gain some sort of credibility as a NBA statesman. You live in Memphis.
It was Davis that punched a person, not Allen. But I agree with the general sentiment.
Au contrair!
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-allengrizzlies010411
Mayo owed Allen money from a card game, “Boo-Ray” and sources said Mayo became increasingly belligerent and antagonistic toward Allen when asked to settle the debt. Sources said Allen walked away from Mayo to go the restroom and returned to find Mayo continuing to berate him. Eventually, Mayo inched close to Allen, and sources said Allen hit Mayo.
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Oh, wait, I missed this one. Priceless. In other news...
http://leeinks.weei.com/sports/2013/01/24/heat-guard-ray-allen-says-retirement-could-be-a-consideration-after-this-season
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Shut up Tony Allen. You're not some 2013 Boston Celtics expert 'cuz you used to play for us and you managed to stop punching people in the head or destroying your knees on after-the-whistle dunks long enough to gain some sort of credibility as a NBA statesman. You live in Memphis.
It was Davis that punched a person, not Allen. But I agree with the general sentiment.
I think IP was referring to Allen punching O.J. Mayo during a card game on the Memphis team plane a few years back.
Edit: Too slow. Man you guys are quick.
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I do think the C's offense is missing Ray. Their spacing has been horrible most of the season, and if there is one thing Ray gave you, it was spacing.
But with that said, their defense doesn't miss him, and this team has much bigger problems anyways.
I still think Lee should be more valuable to this team than Ray would be, because of his defense. But having a shooter like Ray would help this team as well right now.
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Why were we so good without ray last year.
Honestly I think its more guys just talking crap trying to get under our skin.
So TA apparently thinks our missing ingredients are Perk and Ray?
Anyway I wanted ray and the celts wanted him. He just wanted a bum massage if we wanted to keep him and thatbjust wasn't gonna happen. Oh yeah and he wants to be first on speed dial.
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James , Wade and Boshe , and there quicker guards cover up alot of Rays old age ... he does great in situations where Defense or quickness locking down guys doesn't matter.
Ray can still hit shots, but the situation would still be the same if he were here, he would add to the woes of an old-slow- nonatheltic team ... things would be about the same. Doc would be playing him too much and he'd get hurt again. Same ol ..same ol..
Ray would have to up his defense and probally get hurt on the Celtics trying to contribute .
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I don't see this team's record being any better if Ray had come back. Ray was streaky like everyone else has been this season. Not need to even talk about his defense.
He may have seemed a bit streaky, at times.
But no one - even now - in the NBA evokes the same kind of fear as Ray Allen.
Case in point - one of my FAVORITE games from him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdJoT18nAs
He was like 2 for 14 that game...then he nailed THAT shot.....
soooo, his cruddy shooting put the Cs in the hole with the game on the line, and he finally makes a shot to win the game?
I can't tell if he helped or hurt us. Certainly made things dramatic.
;)
In any case -- we've crossed that bridge.
lol exactly, if his shooting wasn't horrible that night then it wouldn't have even come down to that last play.
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Why were we so good without ray last year.
Honestly I think its more guys just talking crap trying to get under our skin.
So TA apparently thinks our missing ingredients are Perk and Ray?
Anyway I wanted ray and the celts wanted him. He just wanted a bum massage if we wanted to keep him and thatbjust wasn't gonna happen. Oh yeah and he wants to be first on speed dial.
TP. The bum massage just underscores Judas' vanity. For him that's a huge character flaw.
In addition he is a liar, or completely out of touch with reality.Here is a quote from the Miami Sun Sentinel:
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-01-20/sports/sfl-miami-heat-ray-allen-s012013_1_td-garden-erik-spoelstra-garnett-and-rajon-rondo
"It's also what Allen said he wants. Just because he's not sure from moment to moment what he needs to do or where he needs to be, he said he still would rather rely on his basketball instincts that return to a style he found increasingly limiting with the Celtics under Doc Rivers.
"When I got to Boston," Allen said, "is when Doc kept me from handling the ball and just kept me on the perimeter and kept me over in the corner, which I wasn't particularly happy with. I just adjusted to what I needed to do for there."
Now is it me or didn't Doc run A TON of plays for him.
Is Judas lying or "misremembering".
Check out the article. Read between the lines and his OCD is making it difficult to adjust to being there. He refers oftentimes to his uncertainty regarding the offense. No plays run for him. Not enough structure.
Poor Judas. ;D
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Now is it me or didn't Doc run A TON of plays for him.
Doc ran a bunch of plays for Ray, but he also largely took the ball out of his hands. Doc has a very structured offense with everyone having very defined roles.
Mike
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Now is it me or didn't Doc run A TON of plays for him.
Doc ran a bunch of plays for Ray, but he also largely took the ball out of his hands. Doc has a very structured offense with everyone having very defined roles.
Mike
Yeah whatever he still played more minutes than Pierce or KG and plays a ton less for the Heat.
He would have been happier playing 10-15 min less but let him run the show? Well that's what we were kind of doing with that whole reserve roll thing.
Anyway in Miami he is getting less minutes and less shots while handling the ball less and standing in the corner. Guess that's why he is contemplating retirement
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Now is it me or didn't Doc run A TON of plays for him.
Doc ran a bunch of plays for Ray, but he also largely took the ball out of his hands. Doc has a very structured offense with everyone having very defined roles.
Mike
Yeah whatever he still played more minutes than Pierce or KG and plays a ton less for the Heat.
But Doc's culture in Boston with the Big 3 has always elevated them above the rest of the team. Everything is oriented around them and the other players are just supposed to fill in. Whenever Doc talks about "spacing", he means giving KG or Paul room to operate. Boston's offense is not open to anybody getting a shot. It's about getting certain players shots. When Doc went with Avery over Ray, Ray understandably felt like he was being demoted from "Big 3" to "one of the other guys".
Why isn't Big Baby here? Because Doc wouldn't tell KG to play center.
Why isn't Tony Allen here? Because he got tired of being the guy who was good enough to play the last 15 seconds of the 4th quarter on defense, but not good enough to play over Ray any other time.
Why was Nate Robinson less productive in Boston than anywhere else in his career, including Chicago now? Because Doc will not let someone like Nate come in off the bench with the green light to shoot.
Mike
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We miss Ray. However, there was apparently no realistic way we were going to be able to sign him. The damage was already done, between the internal conflicts and the various trade attempts. (I'm not saying I necessarily blame Danny for the trade attempts, but don't be surprised if that results in Ray feeling not wanted.)
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We miss Ray. However, there was apparently no realistic way we were going to be able to sign him. The damage was already done, between the internal conflicts and the various trade attempts. (I'm not saying I necessarily blame Danny for the trade attempts, but don't be surprised if that results in Ray feeling not wanted.)
But if KG and/or PP didn't go along with the trade, which has been strongly implied, he was wanted....by his teammates....to me that would be pretty important, but because of his vanity, he thought so much of himself that he shouldn't be discussed in trades every year. Plus we offered double what he took.
Those things should tell a normal person that they are wanted.
His vanity is such a driving force that it knows no bounds. I mean, he has been almost delusional about his misremembering his role in his time here, from recent quotes.
Hey Judas, man, whatever it takes to ease your conscience or repair your New England image...by all means do it!
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Shut up Tony Allen. You're not some 2013 Boston Celtics expert 'cuz you used to play for us and you managed to stop punching people in the head or destroying your knees on after-the-whistle dunks long enough to gain some sort of credibility as a NBA statesman. You live in Memphis.
It was Davis that punched a person, not Allen. But I agree with the general sentiment.
I thought Davis punched an SUV, not a person.
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Allen punched Mayo, though that wasn't with us.
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ray decided he didn't want to stay here. so this entire thread is kinda irrelevent.
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Now is it me or didn't Doc run A TON of plays for him.
Doc ran a bunch of plays for Ray, but he also largely took the ball out of his hands. Doc has a very structured offense with everyone having very defined roles.
Mike
Yeah whatever he still played more minutes than Pierce or KG and plays a ton less for the Heat.
But Doc's culture in Boston with the Big 3 has always elevated them above the rest of the team. Everything is oriented around them and the other players are just supposed to fill in. Whenever Doc talks about "spacing", he means giving KG or Paul room to operate. Boston's offense is not open to anybody getting a shot. It's about getting certain players shots. When Doc went with Avery over Ray, Ray understandably felt like he was being demoted from "Big 3" to "one of the other guys".
Why isn't Big Baby here? Because Doc wouldn't tell KG to play center.
Why isn't Tony Allen here? Because he got tired of being the guy who was good enough to play the last 15 seconds of the 4th quarter on defense, but not good enough to play over Ray any other time.
Why was Nate Robinson less productive in Boston than anywhere else in his career, including Chicago now? Because Doc will not let someone like Nate come in off the bench with the green light to shoot.
Mike
All of your analogies are a bogus stretch comparing them to Ray.
Doc played Ray more minutes than almost everyone on the team and it wasn't to have him sit in the corner. If that was the case than we should just plug that hole with James Jones or Peja or Kapano.
Rays role was vastly more complex than with Miami where he plays the same role Miller, Jones, and Battier play on offense, stand in the corner.
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We don't miss Ray. We don't miss Toine. We don't miss Starbury. We don't miss Dominique Wilkins. We don't miss any of our has beens. We miss Avery Bradley's health and timing. Jeff Green's too. And we miss guys like Clifford Ray and Thibs. But not Ray.
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i miss Scalabrine
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I don't see this team's record being any better if Ray had come back. Ray was streaky like everyone else has been this season. Not need to even talk about his defense.
He may have seemed a bit streaky, at times.
But no one - even now - in the NBA evokes the same kind of fear as Ray Allen.
Case in point - one of my FAVORITE games from him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdJoT18nAs
He was like 2 for 14 that game...then he nailed THAT shot.....
soooo, his cruddy shooting put the Cs in the hole with the game on the line, and he finally makes a shot to win the game?
I can't tell if he helped or hurt us. Certainly made things dramatic.
;)
In any case -- we've crossed that bridge.
lol exactly, if his shooting wasn't horrible that night then it wouldn't have even come down to that last play.
Perhaps we'd need some of that "Horrible Play" right now...
Couldn't be any worse than what we're doing now, unfortunately.
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We don't miss Ray. We don't miss Toine. We don't miss Starbury. We don't miss Dominique Wilkins. We don't miss any of our has beens. We miss Avery Bradley's health and timing. Jeff Green's too. And we miss guys like Clifford Ray and Thibs. But not Ray.
We miss Scal, admit it.
Although we're glad to have him announcing instead of Donny.
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ray is the past... forget it
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We were missing Bradley. I think everyone understood that Ray brought a lot to the table, but feel that Bradley brings more. We haven't had either guy for the majority of the season.
Saying that Jet or C. Lee could come in and do what either guy did was a stretch. It took Ray a year to find his role in the offense (and defense?).