CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 04:13:47 PM
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So, if we lose Pierce and Garnett our lineup will probably include these five players as starters, seeing as that's what Danny is locking them up for.
How do you see that going?
Rajon Rondo (16/12/4)
Avery Bradley (16ppg)
Jeff Green (20/6/4)
Jared Sullinger (15/10)
Fab Melo ( ???)
Clearly, it's hard to know since we have no idea who else will be on the team.
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In what year are we talking?
If KG and Pierce retired next year, I'd say that starting lineup gets us firmly into the lottery.
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In what year are we talking?
If KG and Pierce retired next year, I'd say that starting lineup gets us firmly into the lottery.
Two-three years away?
Why don't I understand that?
Rondo will be an all-star almost assuredly...
Bradley is one of the best wing defenders in the league...
Jared Sullinger in 3 years should be a double-double machine...
That's already three good players to build around.
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I'd be sooooo pumped for our number 1 pick!
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I don't think its possible to say for sure until we see Melo play a minute of NBA time
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I don't think its possible to say for sure until we see Melo play a minute of NBA time
That's true too.. he's a complete unknown. Will he be a Roy Hibbert? Or a Hakim Warrick?
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In what year are we talking?
If KG and Pierce retired next year, I'd say that starting lineup gets us firmly into the lottery.
Are you Doc?
You just do not like Jeff, do you? lol
I think this hypothetical line up idea is...weird. You're asking me to judge someone who doesn't even play lol. You're also forcing ideas on me.
I think as starters, Sully would step it up yes. I think Green could step it up depending on his role (what scoring option is he?)
I also think, if we are talking about next year or 2 years from now, how much Playoff experience do they have?
Too many things for me to question.
INCONCLUSIVE!!
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In what year are we talking?
If KG and Pierce retired next year, I'd say that starting lineup gets us firmly into the lottery.
Two-three years away?
Why don't I understand that?
Rondo will be an all-star almost assuredly...
Bradley is one of the best wing defenders in the league...
Jared Sullinger in 3 years should be a double-double machine...
That's already three good players to build around.
An interesting comparison is to today's Grizzlies
Starting PG: Great passer, speedy, athletic (Rondo/Conley)
Starting SG: Primarily a defensive player (Bradley/T.Allen)
Starting SF: Streaky, athletic, average-shooting (Green/Gay)
Starting PF: Double-double energy guy (Sully/Z.Bo)
Starting C: Big, tough, defensive guy (Melo/M.Gasol)
However, that said...
Rondo > Conley
Bradley = T.Allen
Green < Gay
Sully < Z.Bo
Melo < M.Gasol
Up until this current year, Memphis was a borderline playoff team. And the reason they're doing so well this year is because their potential (Conley, Gay, Gasol) panned out.
I am confident Melo will not be as good as Gasol.
I am confident Green will not be good as Gay.
Sully could come close to Z.Bo, but I don't think he'll be as good as him.
Also, Conley's perimeter shooting makes up for T.Allen's weakness in that area. Rondo can't now and likely won't ever be able to be such a shooting threat as to make up for Bradley. So look forward to having zero floor spacing.
So, however you look at it, we would be worse than a borderline-playoff team, making us a non-playoff team. I'm pretty certain of that.
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In what year are we talking?
If KG and Pierce retired next year, I'd say that starting lineup gets us firmly into the lottery.
Two-three years away?
Why don't I understand that?
Rondo will be an all-star almost assuredly...
Bradley is one of the best wing defenders in the league...
Jared Sullinger in 3 years should be a double-double machine...
That's already three good players to build around.
An interesting comparison is to today's Grizzlies
Starting PG: Great passer, speedy, athletic (Rondo/Conley)
Starting SG: Primarily a defensive player (Bradley/T.Allen)
Starting SF: Streaky, athletic, average-shooting (Green/Gay)
Starting PF: Double-double energy guy (Sully/Z.Bo)
Starting C: Big, tough, defensive guy (Melo/M.Gasol)
However, that said...
Rondo > Conley
Bradley = T.Allen
Green < Gay
Sully < Z.Bo
Melo < M.Gasol
Up until this current year, Memphis was a borderline playoff team. And the reason they're doing so well this year is because their potential (Conley, Gay, Gasol) panned out.
I am confident Melo will not be as good as Gasol.
I am confident Green will not be good as Gay.
Sully could come close to Z.Bo, but I don't think he'll be as good as him.
Also, Conley's perimeter shooting makes up for T.Allen's weakness in that area. Rondo can't now and likely won't ever be able to be such a shooting threat as to make up for Bradley. So look forward to having zero floor spacing.
So, however you look at it, we would be worse than a borderline-playoff team, making us a non-playoff team. I'm pretty certain of that.
First.... Grizzlies are not a borderline-playoff team, they're a top 6 team in the league.
Second.... Green could easily be better than Gay.
Third..... Melo will never be Gasol, I think.
Fourth.... Sully could potentially be a Z-Bo, who knows? It's possible.
Rondo... is better than Conley for sure.
Bradley has better offense than Allen for sure.
Rondo > Conley
Bradley ≥ Tony Allen
Green ≅ Gay
Sully ≅ Z Bo
Melo < Marc Gasol
Now, how about that top-4 seed?!
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In what year are we talking?
If KG and Pierce retired next year, I'd say that starting lineup gets us firmly into the lottery.
Two-three years away?
Why don't I understand that?
Rondo will be an all-star almost assuredly...
Bradley is one of the best wing defenders in the league...
Jared Sullinger in 3 years should be a double-double machine...
That's already three good players to build around.
An interesting comparison is to today's Grizzlies
Starting PG: Great passer, speedy, athletic (Rondo/Conley)
Starting SG: Primarily a defensive player (Bradley/T.Allen)
Starting SF: Streaky, athletic, average-shooting (Green/Gay)
Starting PF: Double-double energy guy (Sully/Z.Bo)
Starting C: Big, tough, defensive guy (Melo/M.Gasol)
However, that said...
Rondo > Conley
Bradley = T.Allen
Green < Gay
Sully < Z.Bo
Melo < M.Gasol
Up until this current year, Memphis was a borderline playoff team. And the reason they're doing so well this year is because their potential (Conley, Gay, Gasol) panned out.
I am confident Melo will not be as good as Gasol.
I am confident Green will not be good as Gay.
Sully could come close to Z.Bo, but I don't think he'll be as good as him.
Also, Conley's perimeter shooting makes up for T.Allen's weakness in that area. Rondo can't now and likely won't ever be able to be such a shooting threat as to make up for Bradley. So look forward to having zero floor spacing.
So, however you look at it, we would be worse than a borderline-playoff team, making us a non-playoff team. I'm pretty certain of that.
I see your point. I think, however, Sully could end up being as good as Zbo. Please tell me why not? He goes for the ball, hustles, has a midrange jumper and jumps a lot higher than Zachary. I think your now might be impairing your future.
I also don't think Rudy Gay is all that. And that's just a personal opinion. If you're asking me if I would rather have Gay or Green...I probably could care less. They're both kind of passive guys to me who frustrate ya.
so with that being said, that makes me feel better! lol...that could be a well seeded team!
Oh and then Melo. He's growing by leaps and bounds. Though I do like Marc.
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Instead of talking about wins, let's talk about points scored per game.
That lineup would be unable to score when needed. Little floor spacing (Avery's getting better, though), little post-presence (Sully's great, but he's way undersized), and a lack of a shot creator (until Rondo makes teams respect his shot, he can't be that guy; Jeff is too passive to be this guy).
This lineup would be pretty awful, whether it be next year or even three years from now.
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Instead of talking about wins, let's talk about points scored per game.
That lineup would be unable to score when needed. Little floor spacing (Avery's getting better, though), little post-presence (Sully's great, but he's way undersized), and a lack of a shot creator (until Rondo makes teams respect his shot, he can't be that guy; Jeff is too passive to be this guy).
This lineup would be pretty awful, whether it be next year or even three years from now.
You're right. Now that I think about it, there's no knock-down shooter on that list!
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Instead of talking about wins, let's talk about points scored per game.
That lineup would be unable to score when needed. Little floor spacing (Avery's getting better, though), little post-presence (Sully's great, but he's way undersized), and a lack of a shot creator (until Rondo makes teams respect his shot, he can't be that guy; Jeff is too passive to be this guy).
This lineup would be pretty awful, whether it be next year or even three years from now.
You're right. Now that I think about it, there's no knock-down shooter on that list!
goodness, i wish we had one these last 4 or 5 games. SMH
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In what year are we talking?
If KG and Pierce retired next year, I'd say that starting lineup gets us firmly into the lottery.
Retire before next year or after?
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In what year are we talking?
If KG and Pierce retired next year, I'd say that starting lineup gets us firmly into the lottery.
Retire before next year or after?
I was thinking if you threw those five guys on the floor next year, with neither KG nor Pierce. That would be ugly.
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In what year are we talking?
If KG and Pierce retired next year, I'd say that starting lineup gets us firmly into the lottery.
Retire before next year or after?
I was thinking if you threw those five guys on the floor next year, with neither KG nor Pierce. That would be ugly.
Lottery team. I agree.
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In what year are we talking?
If KG and Pierce retired next year, I'd say that starting lineup gets us firmly into the lottery.
Retire before next year or after?
I was thinking if you threw those five guys on the floor next year, with neither KG nor Pierce. That would be ugly.
The problem with that lineup is Melo, I could easily see Rondo/Bradley/Sully as average or better, and Green wouldn't be a terrible 4th best starter.
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I really like this post, TP to the OP. That's basically what we are looking at moving forward, very possibly next year, if KG decides to retire and Pierce follows. And the more we lose this year, the more likely I think KG might retire...
There is a part of me that enjoyed watching the young Celtics team that loss 18 straight a few years back more than watching a talented, veteran team go 20-20 this year...
But let's look at your lineup - our young core of players -
Melo / Wilcox 9because he's cheap, somewhat young...)
Sully / Bass (Same as Wilcox)
Green /
Bradley / Lee
Rondo / Barbosa
I have no reservations about Sully becoming a starter in this league and if Melo pans out they could be a formidable duo in the paint.
I have concerns about Bradley as a long term starter at the two spot. His heart is there but I don't know if, long term, his body can handle the pounding, largely because of his size. Courtney Lee isn't the answer, though I like him as a backup very much.
I think the more uptempo we can play the better off Jeff green will be in our system.
So:
1. We have Bradley, Sully and Melo very cheap for the next 2-4 years...
2. If we can put two max level talents at the 2/3 or 4 spots at the trade deadline or over the summer now how does that team look?
Hypothetical:
Melo / Wilcox / Dalembert or other Vet
Josh Smith / Sully
Rudy Gay / Green
OJ mayo Type guard - not a max guy / Courtney lee
Rondo / Bradley
You basically take out Pierce and KG and repalce them with young Max players. maybe you can't to it this year because of Cap and you hit the lottery for one year, get a great pick and then use your cap space to get two max guys...
That young team would have a very reasonable shot at competing with anyone in the east.
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Before I get hammered, my condensed point is, if you take:
Melo / Wilcox 9because he's cheap, somewhat young...)
Sully / Bass (Same as Wilcox)
Green /
Bradley / Lee
Rondo / Barbosa
as a core of young players...
and then add two max talents to that core, whoever you can manage at the 2/3 or 4 spots when you get cap relief after KG and Pierce retire, that team could quickly become very competitive.
You can pick and choose who's a max talent and who isn't and if you have a one down year while cap is clearing, let the young kids grow by taking a beating like all the other young teams did until they grew up - OKC - go to the lottery and hopefully get a blue chipper to add to the core.
Big question for me is, do you try to get another piece right now by making a fairly big move or do you let KG, Pierce play out the string.
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Last note - I think Melo is a real key question mark. If he pans out and can become a decent to good starter as a solid defensive presence, with Rondo at the point, it's just filling in the middle with a couple max guys at the wings, possibly the four, depending on how Sully improves.
if Sully starts looking like a 15/10 guy at PF with great D, I focus my max money at the 2/3 spots...
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by win shares-
Rondo is historically worth around 10 wins per season, but as much as 15 if he's playing defense.
Bradley, playing at last year's level, staying healthy for 35 minutes per game, would be good for another 5 wins.
Sullinger, if he can get the fouls down and stay on the floor for 35 minutes, is good for another 9 at his present rates of production.
Green, playing like in his best season, chips in 2.5 more.
Fab Melo, imagining he could perform somewhere between Jonas Valenciunas and Festus Ezeli levels, could give you another 4.5 wins.
Add in a league-average bench filling in the remaining minutes, and you've got yourself a 30 win team.
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In what year are we talking?
If KG and Pierce retired next year, I'd say that starting lineup gets us firmly into the lottery.
This was my question as well. Next year maybe we hit 35 wins tops... 3 years from now, above .500 club depending on the bench.
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Now in 3 years, Rondo and Green will be 29, Melo and Bradley will be 25, and Sullinger will be 23. Let's go crazy and imagine
RONDO - returns to peak form and earns 14 wins
BRADLEY - earns an iguodalesque 11 wins
SULLINGER - bags a Boozerian 11.5 wins
MELO - brings home a Noahlithic 9 wins
GREEN - fulfills expectations (mine) with a positively greenish 2.5 additional wins.
throw in a good to very good bench worth 7 more wins and you just went 56-26. You're the second coming of the 2010-11 Celtics, baby!
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Now in 3 years, Rondo and Green will be 29, Melo and Bradley will be 25, and Sullinger will be 23. Let's go crazy and imagine
RONDO - returns to peak form and earns 14 wins
BRADLEY - earns an iguodalesque 11 wins
SULLINGER - bags a Boozerian 11.5 wins
MELO - brings home a Noahlithic 9 wins
GREEN - fulfills expectations (mine) with a positively greenish 2.5 additional wins.
throw in a good to very good bench worth 7 more wins and you just went 56-26. You're the second coming of the 2010-11 Celtics, baby!
Great use of adjectives :P
TP
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I feel with that lineup, we could snag a legit top-4 seed. Each of those players sans Melo will be above league average at their positions.
The question is, who will be our bench? No idea yet.
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I feel with that lineup, we could snag a legit top-4 seed. Each of those players sans Melo will be above league average at their positions.
The question is, who will be our bench? No idea yet.
Rondo is the only player that is above average for his position. Maybe Sully and Bradley in a couple years, but that's it.
Green is your average SF. He is a jack-of-all-trades; he can do a little bit of everything, but nothing elite. The only way you become an elite SF is if you become elite in one category (or in LeBron's case, just about every category). The only thing Jeff is elite in is inconsistency.
Melo has yet to play an NBA game, so I'm not going to bother explaining his future.
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CelticConcourse - I appreciate the enthusiasm that you have for our younger players, but the Rondo/Bradley/Green/Sully/Melo lineup isn't championship caliber. We need a star at one of the wing spots, and Bradley and Green aren't stars. If you want to substitute Green with Wiggins, Parker, or Muhammed, then I would feel a lot better about our future.
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I feel with that lineup, we could snag a legit top-4 seed. Each of those players sans Melo will be above league average at their positions.
The question is, who will be our bench? No idea yet.
Rondo is the only player that is above average for his position. Maybe Sully and Bradley in a couple years, but that's it.
Green is your average SF. He is a jack-of-all-trades; he can do a little bit of everything, but nothing elite. The only way you become an elite SF is if you become elite in one category (or in LeBron's case, just about every category). The only thing Jeff is elite in is inconsistency.
Melo has yet to play an NBA game, so I'm not going to bother explaining his future.
If you know me, im the ultimate Jeff-Green optimist. :) that makes four above average and one unknown in the least important position