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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:07:34 PM

Title: The Jeff Green thread
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:07:34 PM
I'm legitimately hopeful, like I tweeted today, that Jeff Green will be the player I know he can be: a top 5 SF in the league.

Think about it: LeBron and Durant will probably be undisputed best SFs.

Then, Melo is the next tier.

After that? Some names come to mind: Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Nic Batum....

And Jeff Green. In the times I watch Celtic basketball, I absolutely love watching Green play. He inspires me sooo soooo much with his return and every time he posts up and makes that beautiful hook-shot, I smile. When he splashes home a three, I think of all the great things he could do.

I know I seem like I'm just making excuses by blaming his surgery... But he will get better. Much better. I'm talking about Carmelo Anthony in his prime, better. The same Melo who is one of the better SFs to ever play this game we love.

He shows flashes of brilliance with his offensive post game, his range and form are not bad at all. He has the bulk to be a decent post-defender, which even Melo isn't, and is already an above average face-up defender.

His dunks and close-range game remind me of a refined Blake Griffin, and his court awareness is just below Rondo, though it appears to be aloofness. He's hit his share of game-winners in his career and can come up big.

He definitely has the potential to be something special in this league even after the tragedy he faced and at worst, he can be an All-Star. All he needs is refinement, and.... Consistency,

Do NOT trade this kid. He will dominate.

/rant

Comparing others players with Green in two years:

LeBron: Yes
Durant: Yes
Carmelo: Very Likely
George: Possible
Batum: Possible
Kidd-Gilchrist: Possible
Gay: Unlikely
Deng: Unlikely
Pierce: Unlikely
Turner: Unlikely
Parsons: Surely not
Prince: No
World Peace: No
Granger: No
Gallinari: No
Chandler: No
Kirilenko: No
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 22, 2013, 11:11:45 PM
He's the 4th best player on our team, but he's backing up the captain.  He doesn't deserve the negativity he's going to get later in this thread.  I think he'll definitely be a top 10 SF in this league.  Not sure about top 5, though.  I think he can peak out as a fringe allstar... on the right (lottery) team he can average close to 20 points... but probably will never make an allstar appearance.  Good solid starter-caliber player and nothing more.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: WeMadeIt17 on January 22, 2013, 11:11:58 PM
IDK just doesn't seem aggresive enough for me. I would love for Jeff to just be a solid 15ppg guy. I am afraid that won't happen though.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: jbaerg on January 22, 2013, 11:13:42 PM
Love the guy to death. But I consider Granger and Deng Better than him as well. We'll see if he continues his comeback and improves. Definitely hasn't shown me anything to be super hopeful yet.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Roy H. on January 22, 2013, 11:15:03 PM
Nothing in Green's career justifies your optimism. He's a 15 points per 36 minutes guy on mediocre efficiency. That's who he is.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on January 22, 2013, 11:15:51 PM
I really wish someone could tell me how a guy who has NEVER been consistent in 6 years in this league is gong to be a top 5 or top 10 small forward. If he was that good he would be getting playing time. He isn't so he doesn't.  I think this is nonsense.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:16:20 PM
Granger and Deng will be weaker in two years.

What you mistake for his un aggressiveness is his ability to scan the court... He's probably the second best at court vision next to Rondo... Maybe Garnett. He can post up decently, but I think he doesn't even recognize his own strength.

He's gonna be more than a 15ppg scorer...he just hasn't realized himself.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: PhoSita on January 22, 2013, 11:16:55 PM
Jeff Green will have exceeded REASONABLE expectations if he is anything more than an average starting-caliber SF in term of productivity, defense, and efficiency.

Just don't get why some people still think he's going to someday be a borderline All-Star (top 5 at his position).
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Change on January 22, 2013, 11:20:18 PM
I hope so. Green hasn't even gotten a start this year. So its way to early to make a judgement on Jeff Green. Celtics clearly saw something in him pulling off Perk trade, and giving him that contract this year.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:20:59 PM
Jeff Green is definitely a starter... He would be I we didn't possess the fourth best SF in the league.

Because of this, he's forced to play unnaturally at the PF or not at all.

Plus, who else can rouse the team with two monster dunks a game?

His threes are ok, and force opponents to respect his range.

His post up game is above average and that jump hook is NASTY.

He can be a 20ppg scorer and allstar, if not more.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on January 22, 2013, 11:21:05 PM
Green is what he is. He is putting up the exact same per minute stats now, while playing a reduced role that he played in OKC as a big minute starter.

He's not a good rebounder for his size and athleticism. He is an average shooter at best. His defense in one on one is good but he isn't a good team defender.

As I said, he is what he is. A solid role playing SF. Probably a decent role playing bench player on a good team or a decent starter on a bad team. Either way, I don't think you would see per minute differences based on situation.

He plays his way and that's it. That means some days he feels aggressive and will play like a top 5 SF in this league. Other days he doesn't feel aggressive and will do virtually nothing on the court and will completely disappear from the game and the box score.

He's been doing this since Georgetown. He isn't going to change.

If he was signed to a 4 year $14 million contract, I would be happy with him in his role and what he gives the team. But his salary is ridiculous and so measuring what he brings versus what he gets paid fosters some hostility in fans, which I think is understandable.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: action781 on January 22, 2013, 11:21:16 PM
Rudy Gay, Evan Turner, MKG, Harrison Barnes...

I'd bet $100 to win $10 that Jeff Green is not the best player of that group in 2 years from now.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: jbaerg on January 22, 2013, 11:21:54 PM
Don't forget to throw Gallo and Chandler in there as well. They're both very young.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: soap07 on January 22, 2013, 11:23:17 PM
So....he's going to go from a mediocre inefficient wing that wouldn't start on most teams in his first six years in the league....to a top 5 SF by his 8th?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Boris Badenov on January 22, 2013, 11:24:30 PM
Holding out hope for Jeff Green to improve is pure fantasy.

Throughout his entire career Green has actually been one of the most consistent, and consistently mediocre, players you can possibly imagine. I won't show the numbers here, but go look for yourself at his per-36 averages.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenje02.html

He has been EXACTLY THE SAME PLAYER NOW FOR FIVE YEARS. Pick your metric: points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, advanced metrics - you name it. If anything his performance has been a little worse this year, which makes the prospect that he is getting better just even less justified.

Wanting him to change as a player is, in my opinion, just foolish. He's doing exactly what he's always done on the court.

To hold out hope that he will change, ever, is a view with no basis in reality.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:25:32 PM
You look into stats too much. I think his game is much more refined than when I saw him rookie year. In three years, he will be places NONE of you would ever expect......

He doesn't chuck like Gay, he's years ahead of MKG, Evan Turner is not much more than a role player either if Green isn't, and Gallo/Chandler are never gonna be all stars.

I can't tell what Barnes or Shabazz Mohammed might be in 2 years.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Atzar on January 22, 2013, 11:28:50 PM
I'm legitimately hopeful, like I tweeted today, that Jeff Green will be the player I know he can be: a top 5 SF in the league.

Think about it: LeBron and Durant will probably be undisputed best SFs.

Then, Melo is the next tier.

After that? Some names come to mind: Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, Nic Batum....

And Jeff Green. In the times I watch Celtic basketball, I absolutely love watching Green play. He inspires me sooo soooo much with his return and every time he posts up and makes that beautiful hook-shot, I smile. When he splashes home a three, I think of all the great things he could do.

I know I seem like I'm just making excuses by blaming his surgery... But he will get better. Much better. I'm talking about Carmelo Anthony in his prime, better. The same Melo who is one of the better SFs to ever play this game we love.

He shows flashes of brilliance with his offensive post game, his range and form are not bad at all. He has the bulk to be a decent post-defender, which even Melo isn't, and is already an above average face-up defender.

His dunks and close-range game remind me of a refined Blake Griffin, and his court awareness is just below Rondo, though it appears to be aloofness. He's hit his share of game-winners in his career and can come up big.

He definitely has the potential to be something special in this league even after the tragedy he faced and at worst, he can be an All-Star. All he needs is refinement, and.... Consistency,

Do NOT trade this kid. He will dominate.

/rant

On the positive side, Jeff Green has speed and hops to spare.  He's shown a renewed commitment to defense this year.  His length can create problems for other offenses, and he's made some big defensive plays in the clutch this year.  He can score from anywhere - in the post, slashing, midrange jumpers, threes.  He flashes good vision.

On the negative side, for all of his versatility there isn't any one thing that he does at an elite level.  Inconsistent jumpshot.  Not all that adept at pulling up off the dribble because he doesn't go straight up - he drifts.  His slashing ability is hampered by a slow first step.  Average handle, doesn't display an ability to change directions.  Soft touch around the rim, but his post moves are very rudimentary and are generally reliant on simply being bigger than the defender.  Not nearly as good on the boards as he should be with his length and athleticism. 

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I really think he needs to improve his footwork.  Right now it's poor, and if he were to work extensively on it then it would improve literally every aspect of his offensive game. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:29:36 PM
He's already been a 15-point scorer his whole career..... At the least he's a top10 SF already.

Unfortunately, Pierce hinders his growth but luckily staying on the bench teaches consistency, which he has been sorely lacking this year.

Being a Thunder fan a few years back  I could see talent in this fella, and until he shows me otherwise, I see a guaranteed Allstar SF in Jeff. He can be a 20ppg guy plus so much more... 6apg is reasonable.

The one thing I don't see much in, is rebounding unfortunately for the celts.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on January 22, 2013, 11:38:32 PM
He's already been a 15-point scorer his whole career..... At the least he's a top10 SF already.

Unfortunately, Pierce hinders his growth but luckily staying on the bench teaches consistency, which he has been sorely lacking this year.

Being a Thunder fan a few years back  I could see talent in this fella, and until he shows me otherwise, I see a guaranteed Allstar SF in Jeff. He can be a 20ppg guy plus so much more... 6apg is reasonable.

The one thing I don't see much in, is rebounding unfortunately for the celts.

Please stop. Jeff Green is not a top 10 SF right now. This is absolute nonsense. I can't believe this isn't a troll.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:39:27 PM
He's a top 10 SF in efficient playing.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Boris Badenov on January 22, 2013, 11:39:58 PM
You look into stats too much.

What I am relying on is called evidence. You have a completely unsubstantiated opinion.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: PhoSita on January 22, 2013, 11:41:44 PM
You look into stats too much.

What I am relying on is called evidence. You have a completely unsubstantiated opinion.

Evidence is overrated!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:42:46 PM
You look into stats too much.

What I am relying on is called evidence. You have a completely unsubstantiated opinion.

Watch a game from Green each year in his career and tell me you don't see this upward trend. If Green had his 36 minutes a night, I can see 20ppg, in two years paired with 5apg.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Boris Badenov on January 22, 2013, 11:43:07 PM
He's already been a 15-point scorer his whole career..... At the least he's a top10 SF already.

You're impressed by his ability to score 15 points per game in 37 minutes? Do you know how many players in this league, particularly at the wing spots, score at that rate?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: soap07 on January 22, 2013, 11:44:15 PM
Quote
He's already been a 15-point scorer his whole career..... At the least he's a top10 SF already.

This is...just...well....I respectfully disagree.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:44:57 PM
He's already been a 15-point scorer his whole career..... At the least he's a top10 SF already.

You're impressed by his ability to score 15 points per game in 37 minutes? Do you know how many players in this league, particularly at the wing spots, score at that rate?

He could score at that rate 5 years ago, get with the program. 7 years later, he can easily achieve AllStar status plus 5apg, plus be a force. Without Paul.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:46:30 PM
If we just had Green comfortable, with... Rondo, Lee, Green, Sully KG, I think he could flourish. Too bad that's never gonna be who Green will be with for 36 minutes,
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:47:31 PM
He can be great in a motion offense, which means no Bass, Pierce, Bradley, Barbosa in the lineup.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ScottHow on January 22, 2013, 11:48:36 PM
whaaaooooooooohohohoho, I'll have, what he's having.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Smitty77 on January 22, 2013, 11:52:44 PM
Green is not putting up exactly the same stats as he did in OKC.  That is silly.  He will in time, but he is not right now.

2008:  16.5pts/ 6.7 rbs./ 2 ass/ 1 stl/ .6 blks (45%/79%)
2009:  15.1 pts./ 6 rbs./ 1.6 ass/ 1.3 stls/ .9 blk (45%/74%)
2010:  15.2 pts/ 5.6 rbs/ 1.8 ass/ .8 stls/ .4 blk (44%/82%)

I think he can score 20 per night as a starter and give us close to 7 rebounds, 2 assists, at least 1 steal, and 1 block.

Smitty77
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on January 22, 2013, 11:53:39 PM
He's already been a 15-point scorer his whole career..... At the least he's a top10 SF already.

You're impressed by his ability to score 15 points per game in 37 minutes? Do you know how many players in this league, particularly at the wing spots, score at that rate?

He could score at that rate 5 years ago, get with the program. 7 years later, he can easily achieve AllStar status plus 5apg, plus be a force. Without Paul.
Me thinks your love of Jeff Green and faith in him is clouding you ability to see things for what they are. Green is playing at the same exact level he has for years and has never been anywhere near All-Star status or top 5 SF in the league.

Chances of a player having a massive surge in performance and statistics, especially away from his per minute numbers are almost unheard in the NBA for a player with the amount of years experience as Green.

Its just not going to happen.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Boris Badenov on January 22, 2013, 11:56:35 PM
He's already been a 15-point scorer his whole career..... At the least he's a top10 SF already.

You're impressed by his ability to score 15 points per game in 37 minutes? Do you know how many players in this league, particularly at the wing spots, score at that rate?

He could score at that rate 5 years ago, get with the program. 7 years later, he can easily achieve AllStar status plus 5apg, plus be a force. Without Paul.

OK, I think I finally have this figured out.

Look Mrs. Green, let me just begin by saying that I think your son seems like a very nice boy. And, I have the utmost respect for what he went through last year.

So, out of respect to you and your son, I will just say that I wish him the very best now and in the future. Good night.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:57:18 PM
Green is not putting up exactly the same stats as he did in OKC.  That is silly.  He will in time, but he is not right now.

2008:  16.5pts/ 6.7 rbs./ 2 ass/ 1 stl/ .6 blks (45%/79%)
2009:  15.1 pts./ 6 rbs./ 1.6 ass/ 1.3 stls/ .9 blk (45%/74%)
2010:  15.2 pts/ 5.6 rbs/ 1.8 ass/ .8 stls/ .4 blk (44%/82%)

I think he can score 20 per night as a starter and give us close to 7 rebounds, 2 assists, at least 1 steal, and 1 block.

Smitty77

I suppose open-heart surgery means players can play like they always have and that coming off the bench for the fourth best SF in the league means not very much?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:59:28 PM
He would be just so good without Pierce on his team...

Two years will change everything.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ctrey on January 23, 2013, 12:02:56 AM
Green is hard to get an actual read on. Mainly because he has played out of position for most of his career. In OKC he played the 4 while Durant rightfully was the 3. When he was traded here he has shuffled between the 4 and 3 slots. I tend to think that if he were starting at the three we would see the "real" Jeff Green. I think the position changes and the fact he does not seem to come off the bench well hinders his development.

Now as to what the "real" Jeff Green is, I do not really know. I tend to think that Ainge and Doc know something about him that we do not. Otherwise what they paid him makes no sense at all. I wonder if we fail to win this year (Which is looking pretty likely) that Pierce will retire. Is contract is only partially guaranteed, he has nothing left to prove and can go out as a still productive player and a Celtic lifer. Green can slide right into the starting 3 slot playing the more uptempo style along with Bradley and Rondo.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: KGs Knee on January 23, 2013, 12:04:52 AM
there are a lot of things ive read in the celticsblog forums that made me scatch my head - but this is the MOST RIDICULOUS statement anyone has EVER made during my time on celticsblog.

LOL LOL LOL jeff green is that you?

I'm wondering if Jeff Green, mrpoundforpound and the OP aren't all the same person.

Never seen anyone else with such absurd statements as to Green's imagined greatness.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 12:05:54 AM
Green is hard to get an actual read on. Mainly because he has played out of position for most of his career. In OKC he played the 4 while Durant rightfully was the 3. When he was traded here he has shuffled between the 4 and 3 slots. I tend to think that if he were starting at the three we would see the "real" Jeff Green. I think the position changes and the fact he does not seem to come off the bench well hinders his development.

Now as to what the "real" Jeff Green is, I do not really know. I tend to think that Ainge and Doc know something about him that we do not. Otherwise what they paid him makes no sense at all. I wonder if we fail to win this year (Which is looking pretty likely) that Pierce will retire. Is contract is only partially guaranteed, he has nothing left to prove and can go out as a still productive player and a Celtic lifer. Green can slide right into the starting 3 slot playing the more uptempo style along with Bradley and Rondo.

You've got it right, in my opinion. Green is a very hard player to read... Position should be SF, but Durant and Pierce wont let him play much. He wouldn't get paid thirty six million for no reason, and Danny, Doc, me and you see this... Green is shy like me and needs to feel in the system, and get his shots/opportunities to succeed without so much pressure. He can be a great SF and I believe.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 12:07:08 AM
Nobody's seen the real Jeff Green since he was deemed appropriate for fifth overall pick. We won't see him till Pierce gets out of here either.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: jyyzzoel on January 23, 2013, 12:16:02 AM
Nobody's seen the real Jeff Green since he was deemed appropriate for fifth overall pick. We won't see him till Pierce gets out of here either.

and andre drummond was appropriate for the 9th overall pick this year - is 19 years old, is playing as much time as jeff green and is giving detroit WAYYYY more than jeff green. the guy is a bust.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ScottHow on January 23, 2013, 12:16:38 AM
I'm not really buying the got that money for a reason theory. That assumes that there were never bad signings.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 12:18:03 AM
Nobody's seen the real Jeff Green since he was deemed appropriate for fifth overall pick. We won't see him till Pierce gets out of here either.

and andre drummond was appropriate for the 9th overall pick this year - is 19 years old, is playing as much time as jeff green and is giving detroit WAYYYY more than jeff green. the guy is a bust.

Boston is not a lottery team, for one.
And, Drummond can play his preferable position.
The sixth pick this  year was Lillard, not Yi Jianlian.

Jeff Green cant be himself until Pierce gets out.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: jyyzzoel on January 23, 2013, 12:29:50 AM
Nobody's seen the real Jeff Green since he was deemed appropriate for fifth overall pick. We won't see him till Pierce gets out of here either.

and andre drummond was appropriate for the 9th overall pick this year - is 19 years old, is playing as much time as jeff green and is giving detroit WAYYYY more than jeff green. the guy is a bust.

Boston is not a lottery team, for one.
And, Drummond can play his preferable position.
The sixth pick this  year was Lillard, not Yi Jianlian.

Jeff Green cant be himself until Pierce gets out.

that makes no sense whatsoever. so he was deemed good enough for 5th overall pick. ok, andre drummond was deemed good enough for 9th overall pick... which is 4 picks lower, so by your logic should be worse than jeff green. they are both getting the same amound of minutes at their preferable positions - jeff at sf, drummond at center. and even if i was to bring up lillard - the guy is also playing better than jeff... lebron isnt playing his preferable position, neither is KG, neither is carmelo, neither is... someone help me out with some names.... lamarcus aldridge, demarcus cousins, derrick favors, etc. it MEANS NOTHING
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: DeeMeds on January 23, 2013, 12:48:11 AM
I'm not even reading the original post. I'm just going to make a list of SF's off the top of me head that will  be better than jeff Green in two years. (in no particular order)

- Lebron
- Durant
- Melo
- George
- Gay
- Kidd-Gilchrst
- Deng
- Batum
- Leonard
- Gallinari
- Wilson Chandler
- Iguodala
- Barnes
- Joe Johnson/ Gerald Wallace
- Parsons
- Andrew Wiggins
- Jabari Parker
- Shabazz Muhammed
-
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: pp34isthe1 on January 23, 2013, 12:48:45 AM
He would be just so good without Pierce on his team...

Two years will change everything.

Who is this really? Jeff? PP? Danny?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: celtsfan84 on January 23, 2013, 12:52:29 AM
I am somewhat comfortable in saying that Jeff Green will be one of the top 5 SF in the Atlantic Division in 2 years.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: cltc5 on January 23, 2013, 01:00:22 AM
He'll be in Europe in two years
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 23, 2013, 01:59:58 AM
If small forward is renamed to "soft forward," then yes, undeniably top 5 in NBA
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 23, 2013, 02:49:36 AM
He's already been a 15-point scorer his whole career..... At the least he's a top10 SF already.

Unfortunately, Pierce hinders his growth but luckily staying on the bench teaches consistency, which he has been sorely lacking this year.

Being a Thunder fan a few years back  I could see talent in this fella, and until he shows me otherwise, I see a guaranteed Allstar SF in Jeff. He can be a 20ppg guy plus so much more... 6apg is reasonable.

What do you even base this on?

Green has averaged < 17PPG over his first 6 or so years in the league.  As a general rule players typically get better through the first few seasons of their career.  Green has not - he's stayed at the same level. 

Why do you belive that he will remain exactly the same player for 6 years, and then suddenly have a talent explosion in the 7th year?  Makes no sense.

Secondly, where on earth do you get 6 assists per game?  Pierce and Iggy are two of the best passing SF's in the league and they don't even average 6 per game.  Green has never averaged more than what, 2 assists per game in a season?  You think his numbers will jus randomly triple?

He's a top 10 SF in efficient playing.

How is his play efficient?  He shoots something like 42% from the field and 35% from three.  That is not efficient in the least.  He records barely any assists, he doesn't get many rebounds.  Where's the efficiency???!?!?

Green is not putting up exactly the same stats as he did in OKC.  That is silly.  He will in time, but he is not right now.

2008:  16.5pts/ 6.7 rbs./ 2 ass/ 1 stl/ .6 blks (45%/79%)
2009:  15.1 pts./ 6 rbs./ 1.6 ass/ 1.3 stls/ .9 blk (45%/74%)
2010:  15.2 pts/ 5.6 rbs/ 1.8 ass/ .8 stls/ .4 blk (44%/82%)

I think he can score 20 per night as a starter and give us close to 7 rebounds, 2 assists, at least 1 steal, and 1 block.

His numbers are pretty close to those actually per minute.

I think 17 points, 6 rebounds and 2.5 assists is closer to his ceiling to be honest.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: jdz101 on January 23, 2013, 03:05:20 AM
I am somewhat comfortable in saying that Jeff Green will be one of the top 5 SF in the Atlantic Division in 2 years.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PPV3sWgx_dc/T0Zu3Hig6nI/AAAAAAAAA5c/Avh_ODOsBi8/s1600/happy-i-see-what-you-did-there-(clean).png)

I see what you did there.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Fan from VT on January 23, 2013, 05:40:03 AM
Nope. He is what he is. And the problem with the whole "in 2 years" projections is that usually they are way too overly favorable because
a. they assume improvement that Green has proven over and over and over again to NEVER have shown, so far;
b. they assume a more rapid decline in older SFs than most actually go through (Iggy will still be better; I bet people would have said when Green was drafted that 5 years in, Green would be better than pierce, but i guess not).
c. they ignore the fact that most good players become quite effective early in their careers and that there are new players coming every year. For example we could NOT get Barnes or MKG for Green at all. Immediate hang up. Who knows who else will develop from drafts from 2011-2014 to be better than Green in just 2 years.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: aporel#18 on January 23, 2013, 06:04:58 AM
I hope you're right.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: celtics2 on January 23, 2013, 06:20:58 AM
Top 10
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Birdman on January 23, 2013, 06:58:00 AM
in Europe? he never be top 5, but i hope
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 07:14:52 AM
Unless the play at SF really dips, I don't  see it.




There is no evidence with either stats or the eye test that Green is improving as a player.  He is a good SF, not a star SF.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on January 23, 2013, 07:18:45 AM
Top 15, top 5 is kind of impossible unless LBJ, Durant and Melo all of a sudden retired at the same year.

He has the tools, it's a matter of confidence. I see no confidence in Jeff as of the moment. He always needs a spark to put up good production. But we have seen that he can in his days in OKC.

I think he has to be confident enough that his skills can be on par with every SF in the league. He's athletic enough, good enough on defense and a servicable jump shot which will improve if he's just confident.

The question is, will he ever get that confidence?

He's another one of these guys who I called "plays within the system" even though there are times he can run through his defender. He has to have the you know what to be selfish at times when he sees a match up he can take advantage of. Haven't seen it in Green in his time here in green.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 23, 2013, 07:23:31 AM
Pierce /Green is ok .

The problems are at the 4-5 postions. Too many shooting guards

 We freakin have have no center.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 23, 2013, 07:30:29 AM
if he is top anything in five years I would be amazed.  He is the epitome of a magician on the court, great once time and then he disappears.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Roy H. on January 23, 2013, 08:16:13 AM

Evidence is overrated!

This sums up the main argument in this thread perfectly, in only three words.

Jeff Green is the Santa Claus of CelticsBlog.  He's going to come bringing all kinds of awesome gifts, if only we believe.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Roy H. on January 23, 2013, 08:19:40 AM
He's a top 10 SF in efficient playing.

These stats are from a couple of days ago, so they're probably slightly inaccurate.  However, how is Green efficient in any manner?

His FG% is 246th in the NBA.

His eFG% is 279th in the NBA.

His TS% is 247th in the NBA.

Her PER is 266th in the NBA.

Those are all well below average for an NBA player, let alone a starter.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: gpap on January 23, 2013, 08:22:21 AM
Jeff Green sucks.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 23, 2013, 08:24:44 AM
IDK just doesn't seem aggresive enough for me. I would love for Jeff to just be a solid 15ppg guy. I am afraid that won't happen though.

He has already proven that he is, he just needs the minutes to do so and its not going to happen backing up Pierce.

In his 2 and 1/2 season in OKC (no including his rookie year). He averaged:
08 - 09: 16.5ppg, 6.7 rebounds, shot 45%field and 39%three
09 - 10: 15ppg, 6rpg, and shot 45% and 33%
10 - 11: 15ppg, 5.6rpg and shot 43% and 30% (His worst year)

All at about 37 minutes per game.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ssspence on January 23, 2013, 09:01:02 AM
He's the 4th best player on our team

This is a fantasy. He's at best the 6th and IMO more like the 8th strongest NBA player on the team.

I've said this many times before and after this summer's poor contract. What does Green do well? What's his NBA skill?

He's an average shooter, a poor rebounder, a terribly inconsistent defender, a wildly overrated passer, can't dribble with his left hand, doesn't move well without the ball, and his effort -- more often than not -- stinks.

Can someone reply to this and tell me what he does well? I'd rather have a very good NBA specialist as a role player (and associated salary) than a guy whose reputation... a silly one about 'pretty good at many things', in the first place... exceeds his game.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: rickyfan3.0... on January 23, 2013, 09:31:42 AM
Hahaha this thread title is hysterical.

Jeff Green is a joke. A dog. He's terrible. He will not ever be good. He will ever start on a winning team.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 09:35:28 AM
Hahaha this thread title is hysterical.

Jeff Green is a joke. A dog. He's terrible. He will not ever be good. He will ever start on a winning team.


The Thunder?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: gpap on January 23, 2013, 09:58:07 AM
Hahaha this thread title is hysterical.

Jeff Green is a joke. A dog. He's terrible. He will not ever be good. He will ever start on a winning team.

I know. I can not believe someone actually thinks Jeff Green is a top 5 SF in the league. Pretty soon I am going to see a title thread that says "Brian Scalabrine: The Man, the Myth, the Legend."
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 09:59:28 AM
Hahaha this thread title is hysterical.

Jeff Green is a joke. A dog. He's terrible. He will not ever be good. He will ever start on a winning team.

I know. I can not believe someone actually thinks Jeff Green is a top 5 SF in the league. Pretty soon I am going to see a title thread that says "Brian Scalabrine: The Man, the Myth, the Legend."


Just remove the "myth" part and it is completely true.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: gpap on January 23, 2013, 10:05:55 AM
Hahaha this thread title is hysterical.

Jeff Green is a joke. A dog. He's terrible. He will not ever be good. He will ever start on a winning team.

I know. I can not believe someone actually thinks Jeff Green is a top 5 SF in the league. Pretty soon I am going to see a title thread that says "Brian Scalabrine: The Man, the Myth, the Legend."


Just remove the "myth" part and it is completely true.
Lol!!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 10:17:57 AM
IDK just doesn't seem aggresive enough for me. I would love for Jeff to just be a solid 15ppg guy. I am afraid that won't happen though.

He has already proven that he is, he just needs the minutes to do so and its not going to happen backing up Pierce.

In his 2 and 1/2 season in OKC (no including his rookie year). He averaged:
08 - 09: 16.5ppg, 6.7 rebounds, shot 45%field and 39%three
09 - 10: 15ppg, 6rpg, and shot 45% and 33%
10 - 11: 15ppg, 5.6rpg and shot 43% and 30% (His worst year)

All at about 37 minutes per game.

Give him his minutes, let him fully return from surgery and we got an All-Star on our team.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 23, 2013, 10:18:10 AM
Hahaha this thread title is hysterical.

Jeff Green is a joke. A dog. He's terrible. He will not ever be good. He will ever start on a winning team.


The Thunder?

Haha. Burn.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: slamtheking on January 23, 2013, 10:43:40 AM
I'm legitimately hopeful, like I tweeted today, that Jeff Green will be the player I know he can be: a top 5 SF in the league.
Why, are they going to do away with the position with Green being the lone exception?  even then he'd have trouble cracking the top 5   :-\
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Celtics18 on January 23, 2013, 11:29:16 AM
He's the 4th best player on our team

This is a fantasy. He's at best the 6th and IMO more like the 8th strongest NBA player on the team.

I've said this many times before and after this summer's poor contract. What does Green do well? What's his NBA skill?

He's an average shooter, a poor rebounder, a terribly inconsistent defender, a wildly overrated passer, can't dribble with his left hand, doesn't move well without the ball, and his effort -- more often than not -- stinks.

Can someone reply to this and tell me what he does well? I'd rather have a very good NBA specialist as a role player (and associated salary) than a guy whose reputation... a silly one about 'pretty good at many things', in the first place... exceeds his game.

He's an elite finisher at the rim.  He's also a very good defensive playmaker. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 11:49:59 AM
He's the 4th best player on our team

This is a fantasy. He's at best the 6th and IMO more like the 8th strongest NBA player on the team.

I've said this many times before and after this summer's poor contract. What does Green do well? What's his NBA skill?

He's an average shooter, a poor rebounder, a terribly inconsistent defender, a wildly overrated passer, can't dribble with his left hand, doesn't move well without the ball, and his effort -- more often than not -- stinks.

Can someone reply to this and tell me what he does well? I'd rather have a very good NBA specialist as a role player (and associated salary) than a guy whose reputation... a silly one about 'pretty good at many things', in the first place... exceeds his game.

He's an elite finisher at the rim.  He's also a very good defensive playmaker.

I'd say his post game is better than Carmelo or James.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Roy H. on January 23, 2013, 12:37:01 PM
He's the 4th best player on our team

This is a fantasy. He's at best the 6th and IMO more like the 8th strongest NBA player on the team.

I've said this many times before and after this summer's poor contract. What does Green do well? What's his NBA skill?

He's an average shooter, a poor rebounder, a terribly inconsistent defender, a wildly overrated passer, can't dribble with his left hand, doesn't move well without the ball, and his effort -- more often than not -- stinks.

Can someone reply to this and tell me what he does well? I'd rather have a very good NBA specialist as a role player (and associated salary) than a guy whose reputation... a silly one about 'pretty good at many things', in the first place... exceeds his game.

He's an elite finisher at the rim.  He's also a very good defensive playmaker.

I'd say his post game is better than Carmelo or James.

Luckily, we have data for this.  In the post:

Lebron:  0.86 points per shot on 111 opportunities (40th in the league); shooting 42%; 4.5% turnovers
Carmelo:  0.97 points per shot on 158 opportunities (12th in the league); shooting 45.3%; 10.8% turnovers
Jeff Green:  0.69 points per shot on 67 opportunities (95th in the league); shooting 27.5%; 9% turnovers

So, Green scores much less frequently, shoots terribly, and turns the ball over the most.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 12:52:09 PM
Tell me this doesn't have the potential to make Jeff Green one of the better post-up players in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ)
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Chris on January 23, 2013, 12:56:23 PM
Tell me this doesn't have the potential to make Jeff Green one of the better post-up players in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ)

Green is a solid low post wing.  The problem is, its time for him to go from potential to productivity.  He just is not aggressive enough, and he is terrible at dealing with any sort of pressure. 

And that is where he is different from guys like Lebron and Melo.  They can get in the post and beat and or make effective passes out of double teams.  Green doesn't.  He will just kick the ball back out, or take a bad shot. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Roy H. on January 23, 2013, 12:57:16 PM
Tell me this doesn't have the potential to make Jeff Green one of the better post-up players in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ)

I've been disappointed by Green's results in the post.  When he first came over from OKC, it seemed like he had some decent ability to score down low.  However, his results there have sucked.  27.5% shooting?  Come on.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Chris on January 23, 2013, 01:02:02 PM
Tell me this doesn't have the potential to make Jeff Green one of the better post-up players in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ)

I've been disappointed by Green's results in the post.  When he first came over from OKC, it seemed like he had some decent ability to score down low.  However, his results there have sucked.  27.5% shooting?  Come on.

I will give Green one benefit of the doubt on the post stuff.  The teams spacing has been horrible in general all year, and that has really hurt him in the post.  That video never happens, because they never have that kind of spacing.  They always either have the paint clogged or guys able to both double Green, and still get back to their own man, because everyone is sitting at 15 feet. 

If you can get Green on an open side of the floor like he is in that video, I think he would be a much bigger weapon. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 01:05:12 PM
Especially at his size, he certainly has the ability to shoot over most SFs in the league. His post-game is effective when used right... which means not playing him as PF, which is never going to happen until Paul Pierce is out.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: rickyfan3.0... on January 23, 2013, 01:12:07 PM
Hahaha this thread title is hysterical.

Jeff Green is a joke. A dog. He's terrible. He will not ever be good. He will ever start on a winning team.


The Thunder?

Haha. Burn.

Was it though? Were they THAT good when he started there? Weren't they happy to get rid of him? Didn't they instantly improve when they gave those minutes to Ibaka?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: rickyfan3.0... on January 23, 2013, 01:14:08 PM
Potential gets coaches fired. Potential blows up teams...

I am tired of hearing what Green COULD do... for $40 mill let me see what he DOES do.

Guys a joke, and anyone who can't see that this guy is under performing (again, $40 mill) is looking at things through Green Goggles.

Think Doc is happy with Jeff Green?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 01:19:39 PM
Hahaha this thread title is hysterical.

Jeff Green is a joke. A dog. He's terrible. He will not ever be good. He will ever start on a winning team.


The Thunder?

Haha. Burn.

Was it though? Were they THAT good when he started there? Weren't they happy to get rid of him? Didn't they instantly improve when they gave those minutes to Ibaka?

They were 42-23 when Jeff Green left and he was averaging 15.2/5.6 which was third on the team in points and second in rebounds... the Thunder were a solid contender, having only had ONE three-game losing streak that WHOLE SEASON, and that was only because the trade had just occurred. Green can be a starter on a contender.

Potential gets coaches fired. Potential blows up teams...

I am tired of hearing what Green COULD do... for $40 mill let me see what he DOES do.

Guys a joke, and anyone who can't see that this guy is under performing (again, $40 mill) is looking at things through Green Goggles.

Think Doc is happy with Jeff Green?

Why is he signed for a four-year contract rather than a one-year contract? One word: potential. Why else would we draft Fab Melo? He's not a 22-pick at all, playing at his current ability... it's his potential that we got him for.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 01:23:14 PM
Hahaha this thread title is hysterical.

Jeff Green is a joke. A dog. He's terrible. He will not ever be good. He will ever start on a winning team.


The Thunder?

Haha. Burn.

Was it though? Were they THAT good when he started there? Weren't they happy to get rid of him? Didn't they instantly improve when they gave those minutes to Ibaka?

They were 42-23 when Jeff Green left.

Potential gets coaches fired. Potential blows up teams...

I am tired of hearing what Green COULD do... for $40 mill let me see what he DOES do.

Guys a joke, and anyone who can't see that this guy is under performing (again, $40 mill) is looking at things through Green Goggles.

Think Doc is happy with Jeff Green?

Why is he signed for a four-year contract rather than a one-year contract? One word: potential. Why else would we draft Fab Melo? He's not a 22-pick at all, playing at his current ability... it's his potential that we got him for.


Melo is young.  Melo has not played in the NBA and can still show growth.



Green hasn't shown improvement in what, 5 seasons? 


Green is the player that he is.  A good SF, not a star. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Chris on January 23, 2013, 01:23:50 PM


Why is he signed for a four-year contract rather than a one-year contract? One word: potential. Why else would we draft Fab Melo? He's not a 22-pick at all, playing at his current ability... it's his potential that we got him for.

Potential goes out the window once you make 8+ million a year.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on January 23, 2013, 01:23:55 PM
I am tired of hearing what Green COULD do... for $40 mill let me see what he DOES do.
For $40 million, you will have to wait until the end of his contract.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 01:26:49 PM
I am tired of hearing what Green COULD do... for $40 mill let me see what he DOES do.
For $40 million, you will have to wait until the end of his contract.

Even Ersan İlyasova re-signed with the Bucks a 5 year, $40 million dollar contract, and he's playing WAY worse than Jeff Green.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 01:28:59 PM
I am tired of hearing what Green COULD do... for $40 mill let me see what he DOES do.
For $40 million, you will have to wait until the end of his contract.

Even Ersan İlyasova re-signed with the Bucks a 5 year, $40 million dollar contract, and he's playing WAY worse than Jeff Green.



That makes overpaying Green all worth it.  Someone else overpayed another player. 



Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 01:30:18 PM
I am tired of hearing what Green COULD do... for $40 mill let me see what he DOES do.
For $40 million, you will have to wait until the end of his contract.

Even Ersan İlyasova re-signed with the Bucks a 5 year, $40 million dollar contract, and he's playing WAY worse than Jeff Green.



That makes overpaying Green all worth it.  Someone else overpayed another player.

What I'm trying to tell you is that Green will undoubtedly get better. People don't pay $40 million just because they want to, they do it for a reason, and Jeff Green's future is the reason. All teams will pay for potential, and so have the Celtics, we'll just have to see if it pays off. And I think it will.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 01:32:33 PM
I am tired of hearing what Green COULD do... for $40 mill let me see what he DOES do.
For $40 million, you will have to wait until the end of his contract.

Even Ersan İlyasova re-signed with the Bucks a 5 year, $40 million dollar contract, and he's playing WAY worse than Jeff Green.



That makes overpaying Green all worth it.  Someone else overpayed another player.

What I'm trying to tell you is that Green will undoubtedly get better. People don't pay $40 million just because they want to, they do it for a reason, and Jeff Green's future is the reason. All teams will pay for potential, and so have the Celtics, we'll just have to see if it pays off. And I think it will.


I'm sure that's what the Celtics kept saying after they gave Blount that contract.

Or Gerald Green




Can someone show one piece of actual evidence that Green has improved over the years?  Everything I see looks like a consistent play level year after year.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on January 23, 2013, 01:33:34 PM
I am tired of hearing what Green COULD do... for $40 mill let me see what he DOES do.
For $40 million, you will have to wait until the end of his contract.

Even Ersan İlyasova re-signed with the Bucks a 5 year, $40 million dollar contract, and he's playing WAY worse than Jeff Green.



That makes overpaying Green all worth it.  Someone else overpayed another player.
Hey, you can staff your roster entirely with vet minimum players. This way, it's mathematically impossible to overpay anyone. Wouldn't it be great to have a roster chock full of folks that perform at or above their pay grade?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on January 23, 2013, 01:35:24 PM
Can someone show one piece of actual evidence that Green has improved over the years?  Everything I see looks like a consistent play level year after year.
Even if he remains a 15 ppg / 6 rpg per 35 minutes player for the duration of his contract... what exactly were you hoping to get for a contract that averages 9 million a year?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 01:35:34 PM
I am tired of hearing what Green COULD do... for $40 mill let me see what he DOES do.
For $40 million, you will have to wait until the end of his contract.

Even Ersan İlyasova re-signed with the Bucks a 5 year, $40 million dollar contract, and he's playing WAY worse than Jeff Green.



That makes overpaying Green all worth it.  Someone else overpayed another player.
Hey, you can staff your roster entirely with vet minimum players. This way, it's mathematically impossible to overpay anyone. Wouldn't it be great to have a roster chock full of folks that perform at or above their pay grade?


There is a huge range between vet min (just under 900K, 1 year) and 80 million for 4 years.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 01:37:47 PM
Jeff Green was a solid starter on a championship contender in the 2010-11 Thunder. Had it not been for his surgery, he'd already be a top 7 SF in this league. His post game is better than most SFs, he can face-up defend. His three pointer and jumper aren't bad by any means and he has top-3 court vision on our team. He has the size to dominate SFs, but not PFs, and as long as Pierce clogs up all the PT at SF, Green won't be able to show his real skills off. Until he's in the right position to succeed, he will always be considered a waste of money.

Give him a chance with Rondo/Lee/Green/Sullinger/Garnett and there's an opportunity for a 20PPG/5APG player in Green... at the least.

I seem to be the only one who can see Green as a dominant SF in two-three years...
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ScottHow on January 23, 2013, 01:42:12 PM
Jeff Green was a solid starter on a championship contender in the 2010-11 Thunder. Had it not been for his surgery, he'd already be a top 7 SF in this league. His post game is better than most SFs, he can face-up defend. His three pointer and jumper aren't bad by any means and he has top-3 court vision on our team. He has the size to dominate SFs, but not PFs, and as long as Pierce clogs up all the PT at SF, Green won't be able to show his real skills off. Until he's in the right position to succeed, he will always be considered a waste of money.

Give him a chance with Rondo/Lee/Green/Sullinger/Garnett and there's an opportunity for a 20PPG/5APG player in Green... at the least.

I seem to be the only one who can see Green as a dominant SF in two-three years...

So you think at the least he's going to do something Pierce only managed to do one time? (20ppg 5apg)
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on January 23, 2013, 01:42:16 PM


I seem to be the only one who can see Green as a dominant SF in two-three years...
That's probably because you are a massive fan-boy of his or related to him in some way.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on January 23, 2013, 01:42:21 PM
I am tired of hearing what Green COULD do... for $40 mill let me see what he DOES do.
For $40 million, you will have to wait until the end of his contract.

Even Ersan İlyasova re-signed with the Bucks a 5 year, $40 million dollar contract, and he's playing WAY worse than Jeff Green.



That makes overpaying Green all worth it.  Someone else overpayed another player.
Hey, you can staff your roster entirely with vet minimum players. This way, it's mathematically impossible to overpay anyone. Wouldn't it be great to have a roster chock full of folks that perform at or above their pay grade?


There is a huge range between vet min (just under 900K, 1 year) and 80 million for 4 years.
Just because $40 million is not enough, we've ballooned to $80.

Jeff Green's contract is for $36 million. And since he's not getting them all at once, asking "what have you given me for this money" is pretty much a knee-jerk reaction.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: albas89 on January 23, 2013, 01:42:32 PM
huh, is that some kind of joke??

Let's see...Lebron, Durant, Carmelo, Paul George, Granger, Rudy Gay, Deng, Batum, Gallinari, Kirilenko are just SOME of the guys who are undisputedly better than Jeff Green at the moment. I'm not gonna bring up names like Leonard, MKG or Harrison Barnes who may become better than Green in 2 years' time... so you're basically saying that 2/3 of them are gonna have career ending injuries in the next 2 years... sounds fair!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on January 23, 2013, 01:45:45 PM
huh, is that some kind of joke??

Let's see...Lebron, Durant, Carmelo, Paul George, Granger, Rudy Gay, Deng, Batum, Gallinari, Kirilenko are just SOME of the guys who are undisputedly better than Jeff Green at the moment. I'm not gonna bring up names like Leonard, MKG or Harrison Barnes who may become better than Green in 2 years' time... so you're basically saying that 2/3 of them are gonna have career ending injuries in the next 2 years... sounds fair!
Gallinari, Kirilenko and Granger (who hasn't played a minute this season), really?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 01:48:49 PM
In two years, vs. Green? My predictions:

LeBron: Yes
Durant: Yes
Carmelo: Very Likely
George: Possible
Batum: Possible
Gay: Unlikely
Deng: Unlikely
Granger: No
Gallinari: No
Chandler: No
Kirilenko: No

I'll put this in the OP as well.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: albas89 on January 23, 2013, 01:49:39 PM
huh, is that some kind of joke??

Let's see...Lebron, Durant, Carmelo, Paul George, Granger, Rudy Gay, Deng, Batum, Gallinari, Kirilenko are just SOME of the guys who are undisputedly better than Jeff Green at the moment. I'm not gonna bring up names like Leonard, MKG or Harrison Barnes who may become better than Green in 2 years' time... so you're basically saying that 2/3 of them are gonna have career ending injuries in the next 2 years... sounds fair!
Gallinari, Kirilenko and Granger (who hasn't played a minute this season), really?
Kirilenko is much much better player than Green at the moment. He's kinda old though, so I'm not sure if he's gonna be better in 2 years time...

Gallo might be inconsistent himself but when his game is on, he can be a really dominant player: 10 times better shooter, passer and he's actually not afraid to take the big shot/make the big play...

Granger is an all-star, what are u talking about? did his career end because of the injury?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 01:50:09 PM
I am tired of hearing what Green COULD do... for $40 mill let me see what he DOES do.
For $40 million, you will have to wait until the end of his contract.

Even Ersan İlyasova re-signed with the Bucks a 5 year, $40 million dollar contract, and he's playing WAY worse than Jeff Green.



That makes overpaying Green all worth it.  Someone else overpayed another player.
Hey, you can staff your roster entirely with vet minimum players. This way, it's mathematically impossible to overpay anyone. Wouldn't it be great to have a roster chock full of folks that perform at or above their pay grade?


There is a huge range between vet min (just under 900K, 1 year) and 80 million for 4 years.
Just because $40 million is not enough, we've ballooned to $80.

Jeff Green's contract is for $36 million. And since he's not getting them all at once, asking "what have you given me for this money" is pretty much a knee-jerk reaction.


My mistake.


I was still stuck on the 8 million a season for a backup SF. 




And I don't think there are many 8 million dollar players in the NBA.  There are the max, near max, the mle and the under MLE.



The only exception is the solid C. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Chris on January 23, 2013, 01:50:13 PM
Can someone show one piece of actual evidence that Green has improved over the years?  Everything I see looks like a consistent play level year after year.
Even if he remains a 15 ppg / 6 rpg per 35 minutes player for the duration of his contract... what exactly were you hoping to get for a contract that averages 9 million a year?

Now, this I agree with.  He basically is what you can expect from $9 million a year these days.  I just think we all wanted a bargain, rather than a market value player. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on January 23, 2013, 01:51:51 PM
Jeff Green was a solid starter on a championship contender in the 2010-11 Thunder. Had it not been for his surgery, he'd already be a top 7 SF in this league. His post game is better than most SFs, he can face-up defend. His three pointer and jumper aren't bad by any means and he has top-3 court vision on our team. He has the size to dominate SFs, but not PFs, and as long as Pierce clogs up all the PT at SF, Green won't be able to show his real skills off. Until he's in the right position to succeed, he will always be considered a waste of money.

Give him a chance with Rondo/Lee/Green/Sullinger/Garnett and there's an opportunity for a 20PPG/5APG player in Green... at the least.

I seem to be the only one who can see Green as a dominant SF in two-three years...

I'm with you, although I wouldn't say he'll be dominant, but I've seen what he can do.

Like I said, it's a matter of confidence or him getting caught into the "playing within the system" sickness I just termed.

I think he's passive to a fault, because he doesn't wanna make a ton of mistakes maybe. I think he's down confidence wise. But I do believe he has the tools to be Top 15 SF in the league, maybe top 10.

I think he needs to just set himself free and do things he normally does. I think he's just playing the way the C's want him to play, which is in no way bad, but once in a while he needs to play like, well, the Jeff Green we saw, aggressive and a bit selfish.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on January 23, 2013, 01:54:06 PM
Can someone show one piece of actual evidence that Green has improved over the years?  Everything I see looks like a consistent play level year after year.
Even if he remains a 15 ppg / 6 rpg per 35 minutes player for the duration of his contract... what exactly were you hoping to get for a contract that averages 9 million a year?

Now, this I agree with.  He basically is what you can expect from $9 million a year these days.  I just think we all wanted a bargain, rather than a market value player.
The way I see it, he'll be a very reasonably paid and valuable third gun in the starting SF slot, who will contribute positively. The problem is that Rondo is a second gun, and we need a first-gun type of big, which is about the hardest thing to find in the game.

But sadly, in the world of salary cap NBA you pounce on whatever you can get, or you're left with nothing.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: sofutomygaha on January 23, 2013, 01:54:28 PM
Because I'm a Jeff Green hater, I have to point out that in this clip (a) he traveled and (b) he appears to be marked by randy foye, who is out of position, 5 inches shorter, and notoriously weak in the post.

traveling aside, though, green does have an excellent record of taking slow-footed shooting guards to the hole when they force right

(ed- that's Foye, not Raja Bell, apologies)

Tell me this doesn't have the potential to make Jeff Green one of the better post-up players in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ)
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on January 23, 2013, 01:57:02 PM
Because I'm a Jeff Green hater, I have to point out that in this clip (a) he traveled and (b) he appears to be marked by raja bell, who is out of position, ten years older, and 5 inches shorter
Stop the presses, someone in the NBA travelled and it wasn't called  ;D
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 01:58:02 PM
Here's what I've got to say...
Comparing others players with Green in two years:

LeBron: Yes
Durant: Yes
Carmelo: Very Likely
George: Possible
Batum: Possible
Kidd-Gilchrist: Possible
Gay: Unlikely
Deng: Unlikely
Pierce: Unlikely
Turner: Unlikely
Parsons: Surely not
Prince: No
World Peace: No
Granger: No
Gallinari: No
Chandler: No
Kirilenko: No

So, essentially, I'm putting him on the same level as Paul George, whose having a career year as an all-star without Granger, Nicolas Batum, one of the best SFs in the West who can notch triple-doubles or 5x5s when he wants and Kidd-Gilchrist who is having a solid start to what should be a long NBA campaign.

SPEAKING OF:

How coincidental do you think this is? Paul George has always been labeled a pretty good player throughout his career, and was a solid starter on a championship contender in the Pacers last year. One of the best players on the Pacers for sure. Now that Granger is injured, he's a lock for the All-Star game and is their best player.

Now look at Jeff Green who was a solid starter with the 2010-11 Thunder, a championship contender. I'd say third best behind Durant and Westbrook. Unfortunately, he's always stuck behind Durant or Pierce. Imagine if Pierce had  a Granger-esque injury (god forbid) or if Pierce retired...

I'm seeing another trend pointing to Jeff Green -> Top 5 SF.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 02:01:33 PM


How coincidental do you think this is? Paul George has always been labeled a pretty good player throughout his career, and was a solid starter on a championship contender in the Pacers last year. One of the best players on the Pacers for sure. Now that Granger is injured, he's a lock for the All-Star game and is their best player.

Now look at Jeff Green who was a solid starter with the 2010-11 Thunder, a championship contender. I'd say third best behind Durant and Westbrook. Unfortunately, he's always stuck behind Durant or Pierce. Imagine if Pierce had  a Granger-esque injury (god forbid) or if Pierce retired...

I'm seeing another trend pointing to Jeff Green -> Top 5 SF.


Notice, George has improved both seasons.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4251/paul-george

Notice, Green has not since his second season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3209/jeff-green
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: mgent on January 23, 2013, 02:02:54 PM
You look into stats too much. I think his game is much more refined than when I saw him rookie year. In three years, he will be places NONE of you would ever expect......

He doesn't chuck like Gay, he's years ahead of MKG, Evan Turner is not much more than a role player either if Green isn't, and Gallo/Chandler are never gonna be all stars.

I can't tell what Barnes or Shabazz Mohammed might be in 2 years.
In what way has Jeff Green refined his game?  He was an at-the-rim finisher then, he's an at-the-rim finisher now.

If anything his game has regressed.  He was a 39% 3pt shooter (1.2 per game) his first year in OKC.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 23, 2013, 02:04:47 PM
You look into stats too much. I think his game is much more refined than when I saw him rookie year. In three years, he will be places NONE of you would ever expect......

He doesn't chuck like Gay, he's years ahead of MKG, Evan Turner is not much more than a role player either if Green isn't, and Gallo/Chandler are never gonna be all stars.

I can't tell what Barnes or Shabazz Mohammed might be in 2 years.
In what way has Jeff Green refined his game?  He was an at-the-rim finisher then, he's an at-the-rim finisher now.

If anything his game has regressed.  He was a 39% 3pt shooter (1.2 per game) his first year in OKC.

He is also playing 15 less minutes a game then he did with OKC.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:05:29 PM


How coincidental do you think this is? Paul George has always been labeled a pretty good player throughout his career, and was a solid starter on a championship contender in the Pacers last year. One of the best players on the Pacers for sure. Now that Granger is injured, he's a lock for the All-Star game and is their best player.

Now look at Jeff Green who was a solid starter with the 2010-11 Thunder, a championship contender. I'd say third best behind Durant and Westbrook. Unfortunately, he's always stuck behind Durant or Pierce. Imagine if Pierce had  a Granger-esque injury (god forbid) or if Pierce retired...

I'm seeing another trend pointing to Jeff Green -> Top 5 SF.


Notice, George has improved both seasons.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4251/paul-george

Notice, Green has not since his second season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3209/jeff-green

Notice how Green's first->second year is better than George's first->second year.
It's what happened afterwards that gets everyone mad.

If we had no Pierce, he would have those second-year stats (which are as good as George's current All-Star worthy stats) and so much more. Totally better than George right now. Too bad Pierce won't let him.

He can definitely be an All-Star at his worst... which happens to have already happened. Look at his drop-off after the trade/surgery... he isn't being given a chance and y'all are all hatin' on him for that. Blame DOC if anyone. Green had a better start than the All-Star Paul George who is currently a top 6 SF in the league...

It's NOT Green's fault and he HAS the talent and has ALREADY shown it... give him the chance again!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: sofutomygaha on January 23, 2013, 02:11:24 PM
I want to make sure I'm understanding this list. You are saying that in 2015, Jeff Green will be a better player than Danny Granger, Luol Deng, Rudy Gay, Danilo Galinari, and Andre Kirilenko?

I don't understand why this thread keeps floating up to the top. I guess it's because you're trolling Green-haters (like me) who are all too eager to spout off.

Jeff Green is a below-average player. I kinda hate him.

Thank you for your service!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: moiso on January 23, 2013, 02:12:30 PM
You look into stats too much. I think his game is much more refined than when I saw him rookie year. In three years, he will be places NONE of you would ever expect......

He doesn't chuck like Gay, he's years ahead of MKG, Evan Turner is not much more than a role player either if Green isn't, and Gallo/Chandler are never gonna be all stars.

I can't tell what Barnes or Shabazz Mohammed might be in 2 years.
In what way has Jeff Green refined his game?  He was an at-the-rim finisher then, he's an at-the-rim finisher now.

If anything his game has regressed.  He was a 39% 3pt shooter (1.2 per game) his first year in OKC.

He is also playing 15 less minutes a game then he did with OKC.
Per minute he's about the same.  More playing time is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:13:35 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

At the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.

This is due to Grangers injury...if Granger was still there George would be the same as last year

It's players like James Harden and Paul George who need a chance to shine, to show their skills. Jeff Green is no different.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 02:15:56 PM


How coincidental do you think this is? Paul George has always been labeled a pretty good player throughout his career, and was a solid starter on a championship contender in the Pacers last year. One of the best players on the Pacers for sure. Now that Granger is injured, he's a lock for the All-Star game and is their best player.

Now look at Jeff Green who was a solid starter with the 2010-11 Thunder, a championship contender. I'd say third best behind Durant and Westbrook. Unfortunately, he's always stuck behind Durant or Pierce. Imagine if Pierce had  a Granger-esque injury (god forbid) or if Pierce retired...

I'm seeing another trend pointing to Jeff Green -> Top 5 SF.


Notice, George has improved both seasons.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4251/paul-george

Notice, Green has not since his second season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3209/jeff-green

Notice how Green's first->second year is better than George's first->second year.
It's what happened afterwards that gets everyone mad.

If we had no Pierce, he would have those second-year stats (which are as good as George's current All-Star worthy stats) and so much more. Totally better than George right now. Too bad Pierce won't let him.

He can definitely be an All-Star at his worst... which happens to have already happened. Look at his drop-off after the trade/surgery... he isn't being given a chance and y'all are all hatin' on him for that. Blame DOC if anyone. Green had a better start than the All-Star Paul George who is currently a top 6 SF in the league...

It's NOT Green's fault and he HAS the talent and has ALREADY shown it... give him the chance again!


I have said he is a good SF.


He is not the star in waiting others are trying to make him out to be.  He is the player he has shown to be. 


That player is not a top 5 SF. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ScottHow on January 23, 2013, 02:16:40 PM
It's so awesome we have a 8 page thread on Jeff Green's all-star talent, lol
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 02:17:32 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

A the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.


So again, Green reached his level of play in his second season and George surpassed that level by his third season.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:18:20 PM


How coincidental do you think this is? Paul George has always been labeled a pretty good player throughout his career, and was a solid starter on a championship contender in the Pacers last year. One of the best players on the Pacers for sure. Now that Granger is injured, he's a lock for the All-Star game and is their best player.

Now look at Jeff Green who was a solid starter with the 2010-11 Thunder, a championship contender. I'd say third best behind Durant and Westbrook. Unfortunately, he's always stuck behind Durant or Pierce. Imagine if Pierce had  a Granger-esque injury (god forbid) or if Pierce retired...

I'm seeing another trend pointing to Jeff Green -> Top 5 SF.


Notice, George has improved both seasons.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4251/paul-george

Notice, Green has not since his second season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3209/jeff-green

Notice how Green's first->second year is better than George's first->second year.
It's what happened afterwards that gets everyone mad.

If we had no Pierce, he would have those second-year stats (which are as good as George's current All-Star worthy stats) and so much more. Totally better than George right now. Too bad Pierce won't let him.

He can definitely be an All-Star at his worst... which happens to have already happened. Look at his drop-off after the trade/surgery... he isn't being given a chance and y'all are all hatin' on him for that. Blame DOC if anyone. Green had a better start than the All-Star Paul George who is currently a top 6 SF in the league...

It's NOT Green's fault and he HAS the talent and has ALREADY shown it... give him the chance again!


I have said he is a good SF.


He is not the star in waiting others are trying to make him out to be.  He is the player he has shown to be. 


That player is not a top 5 SF.

Paul George is a star. Jeff Green can definitely be more than just Paul George if PP leaves and Green gets his chance. Top 5 for sure, seeing as George is already top 6 in year 3.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:19:14 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

A the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.


So again, Green reached his level of play in his second season and George surpassed that level by his third season.

George only surpassed it because Granger is injured.

Green is stuck behind Pierce and was stuck behind Durant.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 02:21:12 PM


How coincidental do you think this is? Paul George has always been labeled a pretty good player throughout his career, and was a solid starter on a championship contender in the Pacers last year. One of the best players on the Pacers for sure. Now that Granger is injured, he's a lock for the All-Star game and is their best player.

Now look at Jeff Green who was a solid starter with the 2010-11 Thunder, a championship contender. I'd say third best behind Durant and Westbrook. Unfortunately, he's always stuck behind Durant or Pierce. Imagine if Pierce had  a Granger-esque injury (god forbid) or if Pierce retired...

I'm seeing another trend pointing to Jeff Green -> Top 5 SF.


Notice, George has improved both seasons.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4251/paul-george

Notice, Green has not since his second season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3209/jeff-green

Notice how Green's first->second year is better than George's first->second year.
It's what happened afterwards that gets everyone mad.

If we had no Pierce, he would have those second-year stats (which are as good as George's current All-Star worthy stats) and so much more. Totally better than George right now. Too bad Pierce won't let him.

He can definitely be an All-Star at his worst... which happens to have already happened. Look at his drop-off after the trade/surgery... he isn't being given a chance and y'all are all hatin' on him for that. Blame DOC if anyone. Green had a better start than the All-Star Paul George who is currently a top 6 SF in the league...

It's NOT Green's fault and he HAS the talent and has ALREADY shown it... give him the chance again!


I have said he is a good SF.


He is not the star in waiting others are trying to make him out to be.  He is the player he has shown to be. 


That player is not a top 5 SF.

Paul George is a star. Jeff Green can definitely be more than just Paul George if PP leaves and Green gets his chance. Top 5 for sure, seeing as George is already top 6 in year 3.


The three seasons where he started for the Thunder and put up the rate of stats as he is now means he didn't have his chance to show he is some sort of star?


And a guy further from his prime has already passed him. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ScottHow on January 23, 2013, 02:21:27 PM


How coincidental do you think this is? Paul George has always been labeled a pretty good player throughout his career, and was a solid starter on a championship contender in the Pacers last year. One of the best players on the Pacers for sure. Now that Granger is injured, he's a lock for the All-Star game and is their best player.

Now look at Jeff Green who was a solid starter with the 2010-11 Thunder, a championship contender. I'd say third best behind Durant and Westbrook. Unfortunately, he's always stuck behind Durant or Pierce. Imagine if Pierce had  a Granger-esque injury (god forbid) or if Pierce retired...

I'm seeing another trend pointing to Jeff Green -> Top 5 SF.


Notice, George has improved both seasons.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4251/paul-george

Notice, Green has not since his second season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3209/jeff-green

Notice how Green's first->second year is better than George's first->second year.
It's what happened afterwards that gets everyone mad.

If we had no Pierce, he would have those second-year stats (which are as good as George's current All-Star worthy stats) and so much more. Totally better than George right now. Too bad Pierce won't let him.

He can definitely be an All-Star at his worst... which happens to have already happened. Look at his drop-off after the trade/surgery... he isn't being given a chance and y'all are all hatin' on him for that. Blame DOC if anyone. Green had a better start than the All-Star Paul George who is currently a top 6 SF in the league...

It's NOT Green's fault and he HAS the talent and has ALREADY shown it... give him the chance again!


I have said he is a good SF.


He is not the star in waiting others are trying to make him out to be.  He is the player he has shown to be. 


That player is not a top 5 SF.

Paul George is a star. Jeff Green can definitely be more than just Paul George if PP leaves and Green gets his chance. Top 5 for sure, seeing as George is already top 6 in year 3.

So we have a richmans Paul George just rotting on the bench huh?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:22:14 PM


How coincidental do you think this is? Paul George has always been labeled a pretty good player throughout his career, and was a solid starter on a championship contender in the Pacers last year. One of the best players on the Pacers for sure. Now that Granger is injured, he's a lock for the All-Star game and is their best player.

Now look at Jeff Green who was a solid starter with the 2010-11 Thunder, a championship contender. I'd say third best behind Durant and Westbrook. Unfortunately, he's always stuck behind Durant or Pierce. Imagine if Pierce had  a Granger-esque injury (god forbid) or if Pierce retired...

I'm seeing another trend pointing to Jeff Green -> Top 5 SF.


Notice, George has improved both seasons.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4251/paul-george

Notice, Green has not since his second season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3209/jeff-green

Notice how Green's first->second year is better than George's first->second year.
It's what happened afterwards that gets everyone mad.

If we had no Pierce, he would have those second-year stats (which are as good as George's current All-Star worthy stats) and so much more. Totally better than George right now. Too bad Pierce won't let him.

He can definitely be an All-Star at his worst... which happens to have already happened. Look at his drop-off after the trade/surgery... he isn't being given a chance and y'all are all hatin' on him for that. Blame DOC if anyone. Green had a better start than the All-Star Paul George who is currently a top 6 SF in the league...

It's NOT Green's fault and he HAS the talent and has ALREADY shown it... give him the chance again!


I have said he is a good SF.


He is not the star in waiting others are trying to make him out to be.  He is the player he has shown to be. 


That player is not a top 5 SF.

Paul George is a star. Jeff Green can definitely be more than just Paul George if PP leaves and Green gets his chance. Top 5 for sure, seeing as George is already top 6 in year 3.

So we have a richmans Paul George just rotting on the bench huh?

Yes. More than just Paul George. But Pierce wont let him show his true talent to develop properly.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 23, 2013, 02:23:32 PM
You look into stats too much. I think his game is much more refined than when I saw him rookie year. In three years, he will be places NONE of you would ever expect......

He doesn't chuck like Gay, he's years ahead of MKG, Evan Turner is not much more than a role player either if Green isn't, and Gallo/Chandler are never gonna be all stars.

I can't tell what Barnes or Shabazz Mohammed might be in 2 years.
In what way has Jeff Green refined his game?  He was an at-the-rim finisher then, he's an at-the-rim finisher now.

If anything his game has regressed.  He was a 39% 3pt shooter (1.2 per game) his first year in OKC.

He is also playing 15 less minutes a game then he did with OKC.
Per minute he's about the same.  More playing time is irrelevant.

So if he's about the same then how has his game regressed?

And his first year in the league he averaged 28% from beyond the arc not 39%. (He was in Seattle not OKC but it was still the same team.) His next two years he was at 33% and around 30%. So he is pretty much right on cue this year with what he is used to.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: sofutomygaha on January 23, 2013, 02:24:09 PM
CelticConcourse, you are a double rainbow of celtic pride. Don't ever change.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 02:24:30 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

A the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.


So again, Green reached his level of play in his second season and George surpassed that level by his third season.

George only surpassed it because Granger is injured.

Green is stuck behind Pierce and was stuck behind Durant.


George was starting last year.  He showed marked improvement going into his second season.  He has shown a similar improvement going onto his third season.  I wouldn't be shocked if we saw more improvement going into his 4th season. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:24:52 PM
CelticConcourse, you are a double rainbow of celtic pride. Don't ever change.

Thanks bruh.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ScottHow on January 23, 2013, 02:25:50 PM


How coincidental do you think this is? Paul George has always been labeled a pretty good player throughout his career, and was a solid starter on a championship contender in the Pacers last year. One of the best players on the Pacers for sure. Now that Granger is injured, he's a lock for the All-Star game and is their best player.

Now look at Jeff Green who was a solid starter with the 2010-11 Thunder, a championship contender. I'd say third best behind Durant and Westbrook. Unfortunately, he's always stuck behind Durant or Pierce. Imagine if Pierce had  a Granger-esque injury (god forbid) or if Pierce retired...

I'm seeing another trend pointing to Jeff Green -> Top 5 SF.


Notice, George has improved both seasons.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4251/paul-george

Notice, Green has not since his second season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3209/jeff-green

Notice how Green's first->second year is better than George's first->second year.
It's what happened afterwards that gets everyone mad.

If we had no Pierce, he would have those second-year stats (which are as good as George's current All-Star worthy stats) and so much more. Totally better than George right now. Too bad Pierce won't let him.

He can definitely be an All-Star at his worst... which happens to have already happened. Look at his drop-off after the trade/surgery... he isn't being given a chance and y'all are all hatin' on him for that. Blame DOC if anyone. Green had a better start than the All-Star Paul George who is currently a top 6 SF in the league...

It's NOT Green's fault and he HAS the talent and has ALREADY shown it... give him the chance again!


I have said he is a good SF.


He is not the star in waiting others are trying to make him out to be.  He is the player he has shown to be. 


That player is not a top 5 SF.

Paul George is a star. Jeff Green can definitely be more than just Paul George if PP leaves and Green gets his chance. Top 5 for sure, seeing as George is already top 6 in year 3.

So we have a richmans Paul George just rotting on the bench huh?

Yes. More than just Paul George. But Pierce wont let him show his true talent to develop properly.

Do you think he is better than Pierce? Because you are saying he's at worst a sure fire all-star and at least avg 20 and 5...which Pierce only did one time in his HALL OF FAME career
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:26:44 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

A the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.


So again, Green reached his level of play in his second season and George surpassed that level by his third season.

George only surpassed it because Granger is injured.

Green is stuck behind Pierce and was stuck behind Durant.


George was starting last year.  He showed marked improvement going into his second season.  He has shown a similar improvement going onto his third season.  I wouldn't be shocked if we saw more improvement going into his 4th season.

Green showed marked improvement going into his second season... And became a 16 point scorer.
He did in his third season too, until the Thunder realized Durant was too good. So, now Green is stuck between his second- and third-season abilities at age 26. And until Pierce leaves, that's where he will stay.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:28:08 PM


How coincidental do you think this is? Paul George has always been labeled a pretty good player throughout his career, and was a solid starter on a championship contender in the Pacers last year. One of the best players on the Pacers for sure. Now that Granger is injured, he's a lock for the All-Star game and is their best player.

Now look at Jeff Green who was a solid starter with the 2010-11 Thunder, a championship contender. I'd say third best behind Durant and Westbrook. Unfortunately, he's always stuck behind Durant or Pierce. Imagine if Pierce had  a Granger-esque injury (god forbid) or if Pierce retired...

I'm seeing another trend pointing to Jeff Green -> Top 5 SF.


Notice, George has improved both seasons.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/4251/paul-george

Notice, Green has not since his second season.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3209/jeff-green

Notice how Green's first->second year is better than George's first->second year.
It's what happened afterwards that gets everyone mad.

If we had no Pierce, he would have those second-year stats (which are as good as George's current All-Star worthy stats) and so much more. Totally better than George right now. Too bad Pierce won't let him.

He can definitely be an All-Star at his worst... which happens to have already happened. Look at his drop-off after the trade/surgery... he isn't being given a chance and y'all are all hatin' on him for that. Blame DOC if anyone. Green had a better start than the All-Star Paul George who is currently a top 6 SF in the league...

It's NOT Green's fault and he HAS the talent and has ALREADY shown it... give him the chance again!


I have said he is a good SF.


He is not the star in waiting others are trying to make him out to be.  He is the player he has shown to be. 


That player is not a top 5 SF.

Paul George is a star. Jeff Green can definitely be more than just Paul George if PP leaves and Green gets his chance. Top 5 for sure, seeing as George is already top 6 in year 3.

So we have a richmans Paul George just rotting on the bench huh?

Yes. More than just Paul George. But Pierce wont let him show his true talent to develop properly.

Do you think he is better than Pierce? Because you are saying he's at worst a sure fire all-star and at least avg 20 and 5...which Pierce only did one time in his HALL OF FAME career

I don't think he's better, which is the big problem I'm addressing. The reason OKC traded him was cause they had one HOF SF and one amazing one. We also have one HOF SF and one amazing one.

Trade him or wait two years when we lose Pierce.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 02:32:15 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

A the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.


So again, Green reached his level of play in his second season and George surpassed that level by his third season.

George only surpassed it because Granger is injured.

Green is stuck behind Pierce and was stuck behind Durant.


George was starting last year.  He showed marked improvement going into his second season.  He has shown a similar improvement going onto his third season.  I wouldn't be shocked if we saw more improvement going into his 4th season.

Green showed marked improvement going into his second season... And became a 16 point scorer.
He did in his third season too, until the Thunder realized Durant was too good. So, now Green is stuck between his second- and third-season abilities at age 26. And until Pierce leaves, that's where he will stay.


No.


He was a guy that played 37 minutes a game for them.

Took around 13 shots.

Would hit around 6 of them.

And grab 6 rebounds.


There isn't a huge swing in any of those seasons.  And when you take his numbers from the Celtics and compared them per minute, use see that he has the exact same rates. 



Green is the player that he is.  And he has been this player now for 6 years now. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:35:10 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

A the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.


So again, Green reached his level of play in his second season and George surpassed that level by his third season.

George only surpassed it because Granger is injured.

Green is stuck behind Pierce and was stuck behind Durant.


George was starting last year.  He showed marked improvement going into his second season.  He has shown a similar improvement going onto his third season.  I wouldn't be shocked if we saw more improvement going into his 4th season.

Green showed marked improvement going into his second season... And became a 16 point scorer.
He did in his third season too, until the Thunder realized Durant was too good. So, now Green is stuck between his second- and third-season abilities at age 26. And until Pierce leaves, that's where he will stay.


No.


He was a guy that played 37 minutes a game for them.

Took around 13 shots.

Would hit around 6 of them.

And grab 6 rebounds.


There isn't a huge swing in any of those seasons.  And when you take his numbers from the Celtics and compared them per minute, use see that he has the exact same rates. 



Green is the player that he is.  And he has been this player now for 6 years now.

Pierce gets around six rebounds and shoots six and a half out off fifteen, getting 19 points. Jeff Green can do that too.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 02:37:53 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

A the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.


So again, Green reached his level of play in his second season and George surpassed that level by his third season.

George only surpassed it because Granger is injured.

Green is stuck behind Pierce and was stuck behind Durant.


George was starting last year.  He showed marked improvement going into his second season.  He has shown a similar improvement going onto his third season.  I wouldn't be shocked if we saw more improvement going into his 4th season.

Green showed marked improvement going into his second season... And became a 16 point scorer.
He did in his third season too, until the Thunder realized Durant was too good. So, now Green is stuck between his second- and third-season abilities at age 26. And until Pierce leaves, that's where he will stay.


No.


He was a guy that played 37 minutes a game for them.

Took around 13 shots.

Would hit around 6 of them.

And grab 6 rebounds.


There isn't a huge swing in any of those seasons.  And when you take his numbers from the Celtics and compared them per minute, use see that he has the exact same rates. 



Green is the player that he is.  And he has been this player now for 6 years now.

Pierce gets around six rebounds and shoots six and a half out off fifteen, getting 19 points. Jeff Green can do that too.


Difference is, Pierce actually would do that because he was aggressive and knew how to get on the FT line. 


In the 6 season Green has played, he has not.  I can't think of any swing players that suddenly became big time get to the line players after 6 seasons of heavy minutes not getting to the line. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:39:43 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

A the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.


So again, Green reached his level of play in his second season and George surpassed that level by his third season.

George only surpassed it because Granger is injured.

Green is stuck behind Pierce and was stuck behind Durant.


George was starting last year.  He showed marked improvement going into his second season.  He has shown a similar improvement going onto his third season.  I wouldn't be shocked if we saw more improvement going into his 4th season.

Green showed marked improvement going into his second season... And became a 16 point scorer.
He did in his third season too, until the Thunder realized Durant was too good. So, now Green is stuck between his second- and third-season abilities at age 26. And until Pierce leaves, that's where he will stay.


No.


He was a guy that played 37 minutes a game for them.

Took around 13 shots.

Would hit around 6 of them.

And grab 6 rebounds.


There isn't a huge swing in any of those seasons.  And when you take his numbers from the Celtics and compared them per minute, use see that he has the exact same rates. 



Green is the player that he is.  And he has been this player now for 6 years now.

Pierce gets around six rebounds and shoots six and a half out off fifteen, getting 19 points. Jeff Green can do that too.


Difference is, Pierce actually would do that because he was aggressive and knew how to get on the FT line. 


In the 6 season Green has played, he has not.  I can't think of any swing players that suddenly became big time get to the line players after 6 seasons of heavy minutes not getting to the line.

He could score 16 points in his second year in the league!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 02:41:23 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

A the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.


So again, Green reached his level of play in his second season and George surpassed that level by his third season.

George only surpassed it because Granger is injured.

Green is stuck behind Pierce and was stuck behind Durant.


George was starting last year.  He showed marked improvement going into his second season.  He has shown a similar improvement going onto his third season.  I wouldn't be shocked if we saw more improvement going into his 4th season.

Green showed marked improvement going into his second season... And became a 16 point scorer.
He did in his third season too, until the Thunder realized Durant was too good. So, now Green is stuck between his second- and third-season abilities at age 26. And until Pierce leaves, that's where he will stay.


No.


He was a guy that played 37 minutes a game for them.

Took around 13 shots.

Would hit around 6 of them.

And grab 6 rebounds.


There isn't a huge swing in any of those seasons.  And when you take his numbers from the Celtics and compared them per minute, use see that he has the exact same rates. 



Green is the player that he is.  And he has been this player now for 6 years now.

Pierce gets around six rebounds and shoots six and a half out off fifteen, getting 19 points. Jeff Green can do that too.


Difference is, Pierce actually would do that because he was aggressive and knew how to get on the FT line. 


In the 6 season Green has played, he has not.  I can't think of any swing players that suddenly became big time get to the line players after 6 seasons of heavy minutes not getting to the line.

He could score 16 points in his second year in the league!


Is this Green's 2nd year?  Or his third year? 


Where is the growth? 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:42:18 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

A the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.


So again, Green reached his level of play in his second season and George surpassed that level by his third season.

George only surpassed it because Granger is injured.

Green is stuck behind Pierce and was stuck behind Durant.


George was starting last year.  He showed marked improvement going into his second season.  He has shown a similar improvement going onto his third season.  I wouldn't be shocked if we saw more improvement going into his 4th season.

Green showed marked improvement going into his second season... And became a 16 point scorer.
He did in his third season too, until the Thunder realized Durant was too good. So, now Green is stuck between his second- and third-season abilities at age 26. And until Pierce leaves, that's where he will stay.


No.


He was a guy that played 37 minutes a game for them.

Took around 13 shots.

Would hit around 6 of them.

And grab 6 rebounds.


There isn't a huge swing in any of those seasons.  And when you take his numbers from the Celtics and compared them per minute, use see that he has the exact same rates. 



Green is the player that he is.  And he has been this player now for 6 years now.

Pierce gets around six rebounds and shoots six and a half out off fifteen, getting 19 points. Jeff Green can do that too.


Difference is, Pierce actually would do that because he was aggressive and knew how to get on the FT line. 


In the 6 season Green has played, he has not.  I can't think of any swing players that suddenly became big time get to the line players after 6 seasons of heavy minutes not getting to the line.

He could score 16 points in his second year in the league!


Is this Green's 2nd year?  Or his third year? 


Where is the growth?

It's far past.
He's stuck behind Durant and Pierce.

He's nearing his prime and certainly hasn't regressed.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 02:44:47 PM


It's far past.
He's stuck behind Durant and Pierce.

He's nearing his prime and certainly hasn't regressed.



He wasn't behind Durant.  He was next to him playing 37 minutes a game. 


And no, he has not regressed.  He is the same player he was since his 2nd season. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:45:36 PM


It's far past.
He's stuck behind Durant and Pierce.

He's nearing his prime and certainly hasn't regressed.



He wasn't behind Durant.  He was next to him playing 37 minutes a game. 


And no, he has not regressed.  He is the same player he was since his 2nd season.

He was forced to unnaturally play PF after his second year.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 02:46:20 PM


It's far past.
He's stuck behind Durant and Pierce.

He's nearing his prime and certainly hasn't regressed.



He wasn't behind Durant.  He was next to him playing 37 minutes a game. 


And no, he has not regressed.  He is the same player he was since his 2nd season.

He was forced to unnaturally play PF after his second year.


And his output didn't change for one minute. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:47:49 PM


It's far past.
He's stuck behind Durant and Pierce.

He's nearing his prime and certainly hasn't regressed.



He wasn't behind Durant.  He was next to him playing 37 minutes a game. 


And no, he has not regressed.  He is the same player he was since his 2nd season.

He was forced to unnaturally play PF after his second year.


And his output didn't change for one minute.

So imagine where he would be if he played his natural SF.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ScottHow on January 23, 2013, 02:48:16 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

A the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.


So again, Green reached his level of play in his second season and George surpassed that level by his third season.

George only surpassed it because Granger is injured.

Green is stuck behind Pierce and was stuck behind Durant.


George was starting last year.  He showed marked improvement going into his second season.  He has shown a similar improvement going onto his third season.  I wouldn't be shocked if we saw more improvement going into his 4th season.

Green showed marked improvement going into his second season... And became a 16 point scorer.
He did in his third season too, until the Thunder realized Durant was too good. So, now Green is stuck between his second- and third-season abilities at age 26. And until Pierce leaves, that's where he will stay.


No.


He was a guy that played 37 minutes a game for them.

Took around 13 shots.

Would hit around 6 of them.

And grab 6 rebounds.


There isn't a huge swing in any of those seasons.  And when you take his numbers from the Celtics and compared them per minute, use see that he has the exact same rates. 



Green is the player that he is.  And he has been this player now for 6 years now.

Pierce gets around six rebounds and shoots six and a half out off fifteen, getting 19 points. Jeff Green can do that too.


Difference is, Pierce actually would do that because he was aggressive and knew how to get on the FT line. 


In the 6 season Green has played, he has not.  I can't think of any swing players that suddenly became big time get to the line players after 6 seasons of heavy minutes not getting to the line.

He could score 16 points in his second year in the league!

Ricky Davis avg 20 ppg at 23!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:49:54 PM
Paul George, a lock for this year's All-Star game... Is in his third year.
In his second year, his stats weren't even close to the stats of Jeff's second year.

Jeff Green has had much more experience and is nearing his prime.

A the least, he's a sure fire All-Star.


So again, Green reached his level of play in his second season and George surpassed that level by his third season.

George only surpassed it because Granger is injured.

Green is stuck behind Pierce and was stuck behind Durant.


George was starting last year.  He showed marked improvement going into his second season.  He has shown a similar improvement going onto his third season.  I wouldn't be shocked if we saw more improvement going into his 4th season.

Green showed marked improvement going into his second season... And became a 16 point scorer.
He did in his third season too, until the Thunder realized Durant was too good. So, now Green is stuck between his second- and third-season abilities at age 26. And until Pierce leaves, that's where he will stay.


No.


He was a guy that played 37 minutes a game for them.

Took around 13 shots.

Would hit around 6 of them.

And grab 6 rebounds.


There isn't a huge swing in any of those seasons.  And when you take his numbers from the Celtics and compared them per minute, use see that he has the exact same rates. 



Green is the player that he is.  And he has been this player now for 6 years now.

Pierce gets around six rebounds and shoots six and a half out off fifteen, getting 19 points. Jeff Green can do that too.


Difference is, Pierce actually would do that because he was aggressive and knew how to get on the FT line. 


In the 6 season Green has played, he has not.  I can't think of any swing players that suddenly became big time get to the line players after 6 seasons of heavy minutes not getting to the line.

He could score 16 points in his second year in the league!

Ricky Davis avg 20 ppg at 23!

Good for Ricky Davis!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 02:56:02 PM
Jeff Green's numbers in year 2 were amazing. How could he not be great as a starter?!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ssspence on January 23, 2013, 03:32:53 PM
Can someone show one piece of actual evidence that Green has improved over the years?  Everything I see looks like a consistent play level year after year.
Even if he remains a 15 ppg / 6 rpg per 35 minutes player for the duration of his contract... what exactly were you hoping to get for a contract that averages 9 million a year?

Now, this I agree with.  He basically is what you can expect from $9 million a year these days.  I just think we all wanted a bargain, rather than a market value player.

I'd like to see him do two things:

1) Put two consecutive halves of high energy next to each other in a single game.... just once... instead of this 10 minutes of good, then 10 minutes of hazy, looks-like-i-got-the-muchies-at-halftime, cement shoes, completely awful stuff. Which leads me to point two;

2) Post 20 points in a game... just once... since i thought the story is he was a scorer, a match-up nightmare at the 3, and so on.

I think $9mil should buy that.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Jon Niednagel on January 23, 2013, 03:52:19 PM
He's the 4th best player on our team, but he's backing up the captain.  He doesn't deserve the negativity he's going to get later in this thread.  I think he'll definitely be a top 10 SF in this league.  Not sure about top 5, though.  I think he can peak out as a fringe allstar... on the right (lottery) team he can average close to 20 points... but probably will never make an allstar appearance.  Good solid starter-caliber player and nothing more.

This is the way I see it too.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: LB3533 on January 23, 2013, 05:52:14 PM
The team's goal and best interest is not for Jeff Green to be an All-star.

Jeff Green's role is to be as productive as he can be when Pierce is resting.

Jeff Green's primary use is to preserve Paul Pierce's all-star status...but so far, Doc hasn't managed Paul's minutes as well as he could have, especially when Pierce is in a shooting slump.

The great thing about Paul is he can affect the game in so many different ways when he is not shooting well.

We run a different offense than OKC, so I am not expecting Jeff Green to drop Durant type numbers on worse efficiency.

But if Green does end up starting along Rondo, how can you not expect Jeff Green to drop at least 20 and 6 rebounds a night?

1.) Rondo is not a ball hogging chucker liker R. Westbrook.

2.) Jeff Green will be a primary scoring option or at worst a 2ndary option.

3.) We will probably be a lottery team at the start and most bad teams have a lot of players who put up "empty stats".
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: mmmmm on January 23, 2013, 06:03:55 PM
Tell me this doesn't have the potential to make Jeff Green one of the better post-up players in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ)

I've been disappointed by Green's results in the post.  When he first came over from OKC, it seemed like he had some decent ability to score down low.  However, his results there have sucked.  27.5% shooting?  Come on.

'Not sure where you are getting the 27.5% number.  I guess it corresponds to his shooting from 'in close'?

From hoopdata.com, Green's shot location percentages:

Jeff Green, by shot location:
At Rim:   63.4%
3-9 ft:   28.9%
10-15 ft: 31.6%
16-23 ft: 35.0%
3PT:      32.5%

Not impressive.   One should compare to Pierce, though, to see the effects of the system:

Paul Pierce, by shot location:
At Rim:   64.8%
3-9 ft:   14.7%
10-15 ft: 41.5%
16-23 ft: 44.0%
3PT:      36.4%

So .... Pierce, who is shooting actually very well everywhere else, is actually doing even _worse_ than Green when 'in close' between 3-9 feet.    That one shot distance is the biggest drag on Pierce' overall FG%.

This gets to something I've commented on in other threads on Pierce:  As Chris points out, our team currently has HORRIBLE SPACING.

We are 3rd worst in the NBA in 3PT attempts.  There is no 'threat' from outside to spread defenses.  We also have no consistent low-post offensive big man to help control defenders along the baseline, take lobs to the hoop or pick up trash and put it back.   Sully does some of that, but only for 20 minutes or so because of foul trouble.

Teams are basically clogging the paint - watch and you see typically at least 3 guys with a foot in it - and jumping all over Pierce (and probably Green, when he's in PP's role) with doubles and triples every time they get close to the paint.

This doesn't explain why Green's shooting has been sub-par elsewhere.  Those numbers from 10ft out to the 3PT line are not good.  However, while well below his career averages from those ranges, they at least are not the disaster that the 3-9 ft range is. 

I think that the outer range sub-performance (10ft-3PT) is likely due to simply low shot volume.   His attempts per game numbers are, of course, extremely down from prior years in his career.  Green comes into a game, maybe takes one or two shots and then sits.  That's not good for anybody's shooting percentages.  It probably has less of an effect on 'At Rim' and short range shots, of course.

In the data at hoopdata.com, Green has only a grand total of just 77 3PT shots this year.  I know for a fact that at least 4 off the top of my head were last-second-end-of-period hail marys.  Take just those 4 attempts off and his 3PT% magically climbs to 34.2%, which suddenly looks more palatable(league avg is 33.7).  This isn't to show anything other than the effect of small number statistics.

I don't want to offer a 'conclusive' judgement on the thesis of this thread.  I don't think we know enough yet to say anything definitive about where Jeff Green's game might be in 2 years.  All the data we have is tainted with one caveat or another (out of position here, small minutes there, heart surgery, etc., etc.).

I do think that Green's effectiveness is dramatically affected by his utilization and role.  By the way the players around him use him.

If you look at the performance of our main (by minutes-played) 5-man units with Green in them and look at the effect of simply swapping Rondo or Terry out and replace with Barbosa at PG - boom - the performance of the unit drops like a rock.   Similarly, putting Green at PF ==  not so great.

This is probably explained with two things many of us have pointed out:

a) Rondo & Terry are simply better at PG than Barbosa and will actually run plays that use the other guys on the floor instead of just barreling to the rim, ala 'the Blur'.

b) Green should not be at PF.

These effects are not subtle.  Even though the total minutes are not huge, the following are pretty illustrative of these effects.  Here are the top 8 (by minutes) lineups that Green has played in:
UnitminOrtgDrtgNet
JT+CL+JG+JS+KG7512793+34
LB+CL+JG+JS+KG72109105+4
RR+JT+PP+JG+KG589695+1
RR+JT+JG+BB+CW30125109+16
RR+CL+JG+JS+KG2412769+58
LB+CL+JG+JS+CW239198-7
JT+CL+JG+BB+JS2310775+32


The ratings are in points-per-100 possessions.

This tells me a little bit why Doc has not used Barbosa all that much at PG any more.  Up until recently though, the second combination up there (with Barbosa at PG) was Green's most used lineup.  Thus it was probably dragging down Green's overall effectiveness.   Green (or at least his team) is clearly more effective when used with Rondo or Terry at Point and himself in the SF role.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 06:13:34 PM
This is still what I think would be the best possible lineup for Green:

Rondo (good passer)
Lee (not ball hog)
Green (focal point)
Sullinger (rebounding/not ball hog)
Garnett (spread floor, can pass)

That would make Green as productive as possible... this impossible starting lineup would get Green 20/6/4 for sure...

The problem is the ball-hogs we have in: Barbosa, Pierce, Terry, Bass, Bradley.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Fan from VT on January 23, 2013, 06:30:43 PM
PER is imperfect. It essentially ignores defense, and does not account that a solid impact over 30 minutes is better than the same impact over 10 minutes. However, it can show a pretty good idea of where a player is relative to their peers, and if a player's PER is lower, there's usually a very good reason, such as: inefficient scoring (low percentage, low drawing free throws, ineffective at 3s) or an ability to be on the court without picking up assists, rebounds, etc.

With that in mind, here are players listed as SF with better PERs than Green RIGHT NOW. So, who on that list will decrease below Green's current level OR who will Green pass to get to Top 5??  BTW, Greens max PER is 13.99 (year 2); a mythical perfectly average production player is 15.00.

Also, people will argue about whether certain players are truly SFs, trying to eliminate competition based on a technicality. Here are some SGs/PFs not on the list with better PERs than Green, so I think this method of arguing is a wash. (like asking "who's the best pure PG" then explaining why the best PGs aren't pure): Ginobili, JR Smith, Joe Johnson, Dudley, Gerald Henderson, Hayward, Carter, Derozen, Iguodala, Korver, Sefolosha.  PFs: Villanueva, Derrick Williams, Darrell Arthur, Daye, Cunningham.

RK   PLAYER                     PER
1   LeBron James, MIA   30.3
2   Kevin Durant, OKC   29.15
3   Carmelo Anthony, NY   25.29
4   Paul Pierce, BOS   19.09
5   Kenneth Faried, DEN   19.02
6   Andrei Kirilenko, MIN   18.63
7   Nicolas Batum, POR   17.74
8   Matt Barnes, LAC   17.69
9   Thaddeus Young, PHI   17.51
10   Paul George, IND   17.44
RK   PLAYER   PER
11   Josh Smith, ATL   17.11
12   Jordan Hamilton, DEN   16.91
13   Earl Clark, LAL   16.74
14   Danilo Gallinari, DEN   16.69
15   Ersan Ilyasova, MIL   16.53
16   DeMarre Carroll, UTAH   16.45
17   Shawn Marion, DAL   16.21
18   Chris Copeland, NY   16.11
19   Mike Dunleavy, MIL   15.95
20   Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, CHA   15.73
RK   PLAYER   PER
21   Luol Deng, CHI   15.22
22   Corey Brewer, DEN   15.17
23   Rudy Gay, MEM   14.64
24   Jimmy Butler, CHI   14.63
25   Chandler Parsons, HOU   14.54
26   Kawhi Leonard, SA   14.35
27   Metta World Peace, LAL   14.19
28   Dorell Wright, PHI   14.12
29   Al-Farouq Aminu, NO   14.03
30   Tobias Harris, MIL   13.88
RK   PLAYER   PER
31   Gerald Wallace, BKN   13.72
32   Evan Turner, PHI   13.38
33   Tayshaun Prince, DET   13.31
34   Martell Webster, WSH   13.23
35   Carlos Delfino, HOU   13.15
36   John Salmons, SAC   12.47
37   Mike Miller, MIA   12.3
38   Moe Harkless, ORL   12.27
39   Omri Casspi, CLE   12.21
40   Trevor Ariza, WSH   12.15
RK   PLAYER   PER
41   Francisco Garcia, SAC   12.04

JEFF GREEN 11.93

42   Caron Butler, LAC   11.75
43   C.J. Miles, CLE   11.54
44   Harrison Barnes, GS   11.53
45   Jae Crowder, DAL   11.44
46   Steve Novak, NY   11.21
47   Alonzo Gee, CLE   11.01
48   Kyle Singler, DET   10.52
49   Ronnie Brewer, NY   10.47
50   Quincy Pondexter, MEM   10.38



So, in 2 years, who does he pass without anyone passing him (younger guys/current highschool or college guys)??
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 06:43:44 PM
PER is imperfect. It essentially ignores defense, and does not account that a solid impact over 30 minutes is better than the same impact over 10 minutes. However, it can show a pretty good idea of where a player is relative to their peers, and if a player's PER is lower, there's usually a very good reason, such as: inefficient scoring (low percentage, low drawing free throws, ineffective at 3s) or an ability to be on the court without picking up assists, rebounds, etc.

With that in mind, here are players listed as SF with better PERs than Green RIGHT NOW. So, who on that list will decrease below Green's current level OR who will Green pass to get to Top 5??  BTW, Greens max PER is 13.99 (year 2); a mythical perfectly average production player is 15.00.

Also, people will argue about whether certain players are truly SFs, trying to eliminate competition based on a technicality. Here are some SGs/PFs not on the list with better PERs than Green, so I think this method of arguing is a wash. (like asking "who's the best pure PG" then explaining why the best PGs aren't pure): Ginobili, JR Smith, Joe Johnson, Dudley, Gerald Henderson, Hayward, Carter, Derozen, Iguodala, Korver, Sefolosha.  PFs: Villanueva, Derrick Williams, Darrell Arthur, Daye, Cunningham.

RK   PLAYER                     PER
1   LeBron James, MIA   30.3
2   Kevin Durant, OKC   29.15
3   Carmelo Anthony, NY   25.29
4   Paul Pierce, BOS   19.09
5   Kenneth Faried, DEN   19.02
6   Andrei Kirilenko, MIN   18.63
7   Nicolas Batum, POR   17.74
8   Matt Barnes, LAC   17.69
9   Thaddeus Young, PHI   17.51
10   Paul George, IND   17.44
RK   PLAYER   PER
11   Josh Smith, ATL   17.11
12   Jordan Hamilton, DEN   16.91
13   Earl Clark, LAL   16.74
14   Danilo Gallinari, DEN   16.69
15   Ersan Ilyasova, MIL   16.53
16   DeMarre Carroll, UTAH   16.45
17   Shawn Marion, DAL   16.21
18   Chris Copeland, NY   16.11
19   Mike Dunleavy, MIL   15.95
20   Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, CHA   15.73
RK   PLAYER   PER
21   Luol Deng, CHI   15.22
22   Corey Brewer, DEN   15.17
23   Rudy Gay, MEM   14.64
24   Jimmy Butler, CHI   14.63
25   Chandler Parsons, HOU   14.54
26   Kawhi Leonard, SA   14.35
27   Metta World Peace, LAL   14.19
28   Dorell Wright, PHI   14.12
29   Al-Farouq Aminu, NO   14.03
30   Tobias Harris, MIL   13.88
RK   PLAYER   PER
31   Gerald Wallace, BKN   13.72
32   Evan Turner, PHI   13.38
33   Tayshaun Prince, DET   13.31
34   Martell Webster, WSH   13.23
35   Carlos Delfino, HOU   13.15
36   John Salmons, SAC   12.47
37   Mike Miller, MIA   12.3
38   Moe Harkless, ORL   12.27
39   Omri Casspi, CLE   12.21
40   Trevor Ariza, WSH   12.15
RK   PLAYER   PER
41   Francisco Garcia, SAC   12.04

JEFF GREEN 11.93

42   Caron Butler, LAC   11.75
43   C.J. Miles, CLE   11.54
44   Harrison Barnes, GS   11.53
45   Jae Crowder, DAL   11.44
46   Steve Novak, NY   11.21
47   Alonzo Gee, CLE   11.01
48   Kyle Singler, DET   10.52
49   Ronnie Brewer, NY   10.47
50   Quincy Pondexter, MEM   10.38



So, in 2 years, who does he pass without anyone passing him (younger guys/current highschool or college guys)??

Everybody except for James, Durant, Melo and possibly George/Batum.

Can you show me his PER in his second/third years in the league?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Roy H. on January 23, 2013, 07:38:27 PM
Tell me this doesn't have the potential to make Jeff Green one of the better post-up players in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ)

I've been disappointed by Green's results in the post.  When he first came over from OKC, it seemed like he had some decent ability to score down low.  However, his results there have sucked.  27.5% shooting?  Come on.

'Not sure where you are getting the 27.5% number.  I guess it corresponds to his shooting from 'in close'?

Check out Jeff Green's offensive stats at mysynergysports.com.  Under post-ups, he's at 27.5%.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 07:45:27 PM
Tell me this doesn't have the potential to make Jeff Green one of the better post-up players in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ)

I've been disappointed by Green's results in the post.  When he first came over from OKC, it seemed like he had some decent ability to score down low.  However, his results there have sucked.  27.5% shooting?  Come on.

'Not sure where you are getting the 27.5% number.  I guess it corresponds to his shooting from 'in close'?

Check out Jeff Green's offensive stats at mysynergysports.com.  Under post-ups, he's at 27.5%.

Blame our spacing, not Green!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Roy H. on January 23, 2013, 07:57:21 PM
Tell me this doesn't have the potential to make Jeff Green one of the better post-up players in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ)

I've been disappointed by Green's results in the post.  When he first came over from OKC, it seemed like he had some decent ability to score down low.  However, his results there have sucked.  27.5% shooting?  Come on.

'Not sure where you are getting the 27.5% number.  I guess it corresponds to his shooting from 'in close'?

Check out Jeff Green's offensive stats at mysynergysports.com.  Under post-ups, he's at 27.5%.

Blame our spacing, not Green!

Of course.  None of Green's failures are ever his fault.

I don't care how bad the spacing is:  27.5% is completely unacceptable.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wdleehi on January 23, 2013, 08:03:31 PM
Let me get this right




Jeff Green can be a 20 point scorer on a team without elite (or good) offensive weapons.



Sounds sort of like Harvey Grant.  Able to put numbers up with bad teams.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grantha01.html


or Dana Barros?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barroda01.html
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Who on January 23, 2013, 08:09:04 PM
Let me get this right


Jeff Green can be a 20 point scorer on a team without elite (or good) offensive weapons.


Sounds sort of like Harvey Grant.  Able to put numbers up with bad teams.

Yeah, that is how I look at Jeff Green. He could be a 18-20ppg threat on a crappy team (bottom 5 type team). A 14-17ppg on a good team (low seed playoff team). But would be most comfortable as a 12-14ppg threat on a great team (title contender).
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: TripleOT on January 23, 2013, 08:10:52 PM
The only good thing about Green in two more years is that he'll be closer to being an expiring contract. I'll take every single player on the OP's list over Green right now, and 80% of them in two years. 

 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: mmmmm on January 23, 2013, 08:22:49 PM
Tell me this doesn't have the potential to make Jeff Green one of the better post-up players in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ)

I've been disappointed by Green's results in the post.  When he first came over from OKC, it seemed like he had some decent ability to score down low.  However, his results there have sucked.  27.5% shooting?  Come on.

'Not sure where you are getting the 27.5% number.  I guess it corresponds to his shooting from 'in close'?

Check out Jeff Green's offensive stats at mysynergysports.com.  Under post-ups, he's at 27.5%.

Blame our spacing, not Green!

Of course.  None of Green's failures are ever his fault.

I don't care how bad the spacing is:  27.5% is completely unacceptable.

That seems a bit unnecessarily dismissive, Roy.

I don't necessarily buy into the idea that Green is going to be a 'top 5' SF in 2 years ... I don't make predictions.

But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Green's performance has fluctuated wildly depending on the role he's been put in and how he is utilized.

Also, there IS a pretty dramatic problem with our team's offensive spacing, shot distribution and resulting overall efficiency.

The numbers I posted show a pretty dramatic swing when you just shift out just the point guard in his main lineup, keeping the foursome of Lee+Green+Sully+KG otherwise stable.  With RR or JT, it is an awesome lineup.  With LB, it is mediocre.   There is the skitzophrenia that people complain about with Green.  Is that his 'fault'?

I'd rather not waste time worrying about failings and faults.  All I know is that in order for the Celtics to have success, we want our players deployed in ways that lead to success.   Clearly, whether its a failing in him or not, Green has a lot more success in some situations / roles / lineups than others.   Hopefully Doc will try to deploy him more in successful lineups more often and we'll all be happy.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Fan from VT on January 23, 2013, 08:39:27 PM
PER is imperfect. It essentially ignores defense, and does not account that a solid impact over 30 minutes is better than the same impact over 10 minutes. However, it can show a pretty good idea of where a player is relative to their peers, and if a player's PER is lower, there's usually a very good reason, such as: inefficient scoring (low percentage, low drawing free throws, ineffective at 3s) or an ability to be on the court without picking up assists, rebounds, etc.

With that in mind, here are players listed as SF with better PERs than Green RIGHT NOW. So, who on that list will decrease below Green's current level OR who will Green pass to get to Top 5??  BTW, Greens max PER is 13.99 (year 2); a mythical perfectly average production player is 15.00.

Also, people will argue about whether certain players are truly SFs, trying to eliminate competition based on a technicality. Here are some SGs/PFs not on the list with better PERs than Green, so I think this method of arguing is a wash. (like asking "who's the best pure PG" then explaining why the best PGs aren't pure): Ginobili, JR Smith, Joe Johnson, Dudley, Gerald Henderson, Hayward, Carter, Derozen, Iguodala, Korver, Sefolosha.  PFs: Villanueva, Derrick Williams, Darrell Arthur, Daye, Cunningham.

RK   PLAYER                     PER
1   LeBron James, MIA   30.3
2   Kevin Durant, OKC   29.15
3   Carmelo Anthony, NY   25.29
4   Paul Pierce, BOS   19.09
5   Kenneth Faried, DEN   19.02
6   Andrei Kirilenko, MIN   18.63
7   Nicolas Batum, POR   17.74
8   Matt Barnes, LAC   17.69
9   Thaddeus Young, PHI   17.51
10   Paul George, IND   17.44
RK   PLAYER   PER
11   Josh Smith, ATL   17.11
12   Jordan Hamilton, DEN   16.91
13   Earl Clark, LAL   16.74
14   Danilo Gallinari, DEN   16.69
15   Ersan Ilyasova, MIL   16.53
16   DeMarre Carroll, UTAH   16.45
17   Shawn Marion, DAL   16.21
18   Chris Copeland, NY   16.11
19   Mike Dunleavy, MIL   15.95
20   Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, CHA   15.73
RK   PLAYER   PER
21   Luol Deng, CHI   15.22
22   Corey Brewer, DEN   15.17
23   Rudy Gay, MEM   14.64
24   Jimmy Butler, CHI   14.63
25   Chandler Parsons, HOU   14.54
26   Kawhi Leonard, SA   14.35
27   Metta World Peace, LAL   14.19
28   Dorell Wright, PHI   14.12
29   Al-Farouq Aminu, NO   14.03
30   Tobias Harris, MIL   13.88
RK   PLAYER   PER
31   Gerald Wallace, BKN   13.72
32   Evan Turner, PHI   13.38
33   Tayshaun Prince, DET   13.31
34   Martell Webster, WSH   13.23
35   Carlos Delfino, HOU   13.15
36   John Salmons, SAC   12.47
37   Mike Miller, MIA   12.3
38   Moe Harkless, ORL   12.27
39   Omri Casspi, CLE   12.21
40   Trevor Ariza, WSH   12.15
RK   PLAYER   PER
41   Francisco Garcia, SAC   12.04

JEFF GREEN 11.93

42   Caron Butler, LAC   11.75
43   C.J. Miles, CLE   11.54
44   Harrison Barnes, GS   11.53
45   Jae Crowder, DAL   11.44
46   Steve Novak, NY   11.21
47   Alonzo Gee, CLE   11.01
48   Kyle Singler, DET   10.52
49   Ronnie Brewer, NY   10.47
50   Quincy Pondexter, MEM   10.38



So, in 2 years, who does he pass without anyone passing him (younger guys/current highschool or college guys)??

Everybody except for James, Durant, Melo and possibly George/Batum.

Can you show me his PER in his second/third years in the league?

Best ever PER was 13.99.

Mainly I wanted to point out just how many tall, fairly athletic guys there are who put up EXACTLY what Green does. Green only seems different because he's on the C's, and any of those 20+ others would have exactly the same support/excuses if they were on the C's.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Roy H. on January 23, 2013, 08:53:44 PM
Tell me this doesn't have the potential to make Jeff Green one of the better post-up players in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5717fB_csMQ)

I've been disappointed by Green's results in the post.  When he first came over from OKC, it seemed like he had some decent ability to score down low.  However, his results there have sucked.  27.5% shooting?  Come on.

'Not sure where you are getting the 27.5% number.  I guess it corresponds to his shooting from 'in close'?

Check out Jeff Green's offensive stats at mysynergysports.com.  Under post-ups, he's at 27.5%.

Blame our spacing, not Green!

Of course.  None of Green's failures are ever his fault.

I don't care how bad the spacing is:  27.5% is completely unacceptable.

That seems a bit unnecessarily dismissive, Roy.

I don't necessarily buy into the idea that Green is going to be a 'top 5' SF in 2 years ... I don't make predictions.

But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Green's performance has fluctuated wildly depending on the role he's been put in and how he is utilized.

Also, there IS a pretty dramatic problem with our team's offensive spacing, shot distribution and resulting overall efficiency.

The numbers I posted show a pretty dramatic swing when you just shift out just the point guard in his main lineup, keeping the foursome of Lee+Green+Sully+KG otherwise stable.  With RR or JT, it is an awesome lineup.  With LB, it is mediocre.   There is the skitzophrenia that people complain about with Green.  Is that his 'fault'?

I'd rather not waste time worrying about failings and faults.  All I know is that in order for the Celtics to have success, we want our players deployed in ways that lead to success.   Clearly, whether its a failing in him or not, Green has a lot more success in some situations / roles / lineups than others.   Hopefully Doc will try to deploy him more in successful lineups more often and we'll all be happy.

After reading through dozens and dozens of posts making excuses for Green's failure, I've got no problem with being dismissive of yet one more excuse.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 08:53:58 PM
PER is imperfect. It essentially ignores defense, and does not account that a solid impact over 30 minutes is better than the same impact over 10 minutes. However, it can show a pretty good idea of where a player is relative to their peers, and if a player's PER is lower, there's usually a very good reason, such as: inefficient scoring (low percentage, low drawing free throws, ineffective at 3s) or an ability to be on the court without picking up assists, rebounds, etc.

With that in mind, here are players listed as SF with better PERs than Green RIGHT NOW. So, who on that list will decrease below Green's current level OR who will Green pass to get to Top 5??  BTW, Greens max PER is 13.99 (year 2); a mythical perfectly average production player is 15.00.

Also, people will argue about whether certain players are truly SFs, trying to eliminate competition based on a technicality. Here are some SGs/PFs not on the list with better PERs than Green, so I think this method of arguing is a wash. (like asking "who's the best pure PG" then explaining why the best PGs aren't pure): Ginobili, JR Smith, Joe Johnson, Dudley, Gerald Henderson, Hayward, Carter, Derozen, Iguodala, Korver, Sefolosha.  PFs: Villanueva, Derrick Williams, Darrell Arthur, Daye, Cunningham.

RK   PLAYER                     PER
1   LeBron James, MIA   30.3
2   Kevin Durant, OKC   29.15
3   Carmelo Anthony, NY   25.29
4   Paul Pierce, BOS   19.09
5   Kenneth Faried, DEN   19.02
6   Andrei Kirilenko, MIN   18.63
7   Nicolas Batum, POR   17.74
8   Matt Barnes, LAC   17.69
9   Thaddeus Young, PHI   17.51
10   Paul George, IND   17.44
RK   PLAYER   PER
11   Josh Smith, ATL   17.11
12   Jordan Hamilton, DEN   16.91
13   Earl Clark, LAL   16.74
14   Danilo Gallinari, DEN   16.69
15   Ersan Ilyasova, MIL   16.53
16   DeMarre Carroll, UTAH   16.45
17   Shawn Marion, DAL   16.21
18   Chris Copeland, NY   16.11
19   Mike Dunleavy, MIL   15.95
20   Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, CHA   15.73
RK   PLAYER   PER
21   Luol Deng, CHI   15.22
22   Corey Brewer, DEN   15.17
23   Rudy Gay, MEM   14.64
24   Jimmy Butler, CHI   14.63
25   Chandler Parsons, HOU   14.54
26   Kawhi Leonard, SA   14.35
27   Metta World Peace, LAL   14.19
28   Dorell Wright, PHI   14.12
29   Al-Farouq Aminu, NO   14.03
30   Tobias Harris, MIL   13.88
RK   PLAYER   PER
31   Gerald Wallace, BKN   13.72
32   Evan Turner, PHI   13.38
33   Tayshaun Prince, DET   13.31
34   Martell Webster, WSH   13.23
35   Carlos Delfino, HOU   13.15
36   John Salmons, SAC   12.47
37   Mike Miller, MIA   12.3
38   Moe Harkless, ORL   12.27
39   Omri Casspi, CLE   12.21
40   Trevor Ariza, WSH   12.15
RK   PLAYER   PER
41   Francisco Garcia, SAC   12.04

JEFF GREEN 11.93

42   Caron Butler, LAC   11.75
43   C.J. Miles, CLE   11.54
44   Harrison Barnes, GS   11.53
45   Jae Crowder, DAL   11.44
46   Steve Novak, NY   11.21
47   Alonzo Gee, CLE   11.01
48   Kyle Singler, DET   10.52
49   Ronnie Brewer, NY   10.47
50   Quincy Pondexter, MEM   10.38



So, in 2 years, who does he pass without anyone passing him (younger guys/current highschool or college guys)??

Everybody except for James, Durant, Melo and possibly George/Batum.

Can you show me his PER in his second/third years in the league?

Best ever PER was 13.99.

Mainly I wanted to point out just how many tall, fairly athletic guys there are who put up EXACTLY what Green does. Green only seems different because he's on the C's, and any of those 20+ others would have exactly the same support/excuses if they were on the C's.

If his 16.5/7 season only got him a 13.99, I'll say PER is a flawed system! Chris Copeland at 18th? You've gotta be kidding me!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Fan from VT on January 23, 2013, 10:08:06 PM

If his 16.5/7 season only got him a 13.99, I'll say PER is a flawed system! Chris Copeland at 18th? You've gotta be kidding me!

As has been discussed ad nauseum, Green's 2nd season is essentially a quintessential "Average Al Harrington" season. He played a TON of minutes on a BAD team. That season looks good if you go by the standard of just counting total points, total assists, total rebounds per game and totally ignoring his massive minutes, which combined with average to ok shooting show that he was a below average rebounder and simply average shooter who got numbers only because he was the 2nd option on a bad team and forced into heavy minutes. If he'd been drafted to a playoff team, he'd have had a similar year to this one and no one would be confused as to what kind of player he is. Frankly, a good player in that situation should be grabbing boards and scoring more in those kinds of minutes.


Random thoughts:
-had a negative +/- for that bad team
-played PF>SF at a 3:1 ratio and was only marginally better at SF for those saying he'd be a completely different player at SF.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: indeedproceed on January 23, 2013, 10:47:31 PM
Quote from: CelticConcourse link=topic=61957.msg1381682#msg1381682 date
If his 16.5/7 season only got him a 13.99, I'll say PER is a flawed system! Chris Copeland at 18th? You've gotta be kidding me!

The reason why his PER number is low is because his minutes played was so high. His actual per-minute production was below average for a starter, especially with regards to rebounds.

On top of that, he couldn't defend 4s to save his life.

So even with the quickness advantage against 4s, he was still letting in WAYY more production that he was putting out.

As a 3, he's been woefully inconsistent.

Basically, there isn't any numberical evidence to support Green entering the elite halls of starting 3s.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 10:55:01 PM
Quote from: CelticConcourse link=topic=61957.msg1381682#msg1381682 date
If his 16.5/7 season only got him a 13.99, I'll say PER is a flawed system! Chris Copeland at 18th? You've gotta be kidding me!

The reason why his PER number is low is because his minutes played was so high. His actual per-minute production was below average for a starter, especially with regards to rebounds.

On top of that, he couldn't defend 4s to save his life.

So even with the quickness advantage against 4s, he was still letting in WAYY more production that he was putting out.

As a 3, he's been woefully inconsistent.

Basically, there isn't any numberical evidence to support Green entering the elite halls of starting 3s.

He'll never be a good 4.

He can be a consistent 3 if he gets consistent play time, aka not playing behind a Durant/Pierce. The thing y'all were saying was that he's too consistent and hasn't improved since year 2! Give him his play time and he'll pass those per minute stats!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 10:56:43 PM

If his 16.5/7 season only got him a 13.99, I'll say PER is a flawed system! Chris Copeland at 18th? You've gotta be kidding me!

As has been discussed ad nauseum, Green's 2nd season is essentially a quintessential "Average Al Harrington" season. He played a TON of minutes on a BAD team. That season looks good if you go by the standard of just counting total points, total assists, total rebounds per game and totally ignoring his massive minutes, which combined with average to ok shooting show that he was a below average rebounder and simply average shooter who got numbers only because he was the 2nd option on a bad team and forced into heavy minutes. If he'd been drafted to a playoff team, he'd have had a similar year to this one and no one would be confused as to what kind of player he is. Frankly, a good player in that situation should be grabbing boards and scoring more in those kinds of minutes.


Random thoughts:
-had a negative +/- for that bad team
-played PF>SF at a 3:1 ratio and was only marginally better at SF for those saying he'd be a completely different player at SF.

For the fifth time this thread.............. That Thunder team was a legit contender and had the fourth seed in the west with Green being a solid starter scoring 16+ points with consistency. That was years ago, he can get twenty any day now if played right.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 23, 2013, 10:58:56 PM
To all: please read previous pages before making same points over and over.

Sorry if I'm annoying... I just seem to see Jeff in a different way than y'all...  :D We're all Celtic fans at the end, right? But seriously... 20/6/4 is easy for this kid, he can be a Melo.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: mmmmm on January 24, 2013, 12:00:06 AM

Of course.  None of Green's failures are ever his fault.

I don't care how bad the spacing is:  27.5% is completely unacceptable.

That seems a bit unnecessarily dismissive, Roy.

I don't necessarily buy into the idea that Green is going to be a 'top 5' SF in 2 years ... I don't make predictions.

But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Green's performance has fluctuated wildly depending on the role he's been put in and how he is utilized.

Also, there IS a pretty dramatic problem with our team's offensive spacing, shot distribution and resulting overall efficiency.

The numbers I posted show a pretty dramatic swing when you just shift out just the point guard in his main lineup, keeping the foursome of Lee+Green+Sully+KG otherwise stable.  With RR or JT, it is an awesome lineup.  With LB, it is mediocre.   There is the skitzophrenia that people complain about with Green.  Is that his 'fault'?

I'd rather not waste time worrying about failings and faults.  All I know is that in order for the Celtics to have success, we want our players deployed in ways that lead to success.   Clearly, whether its a failing in him or not, Green has a lot more success in some situations / roles / lineups than others.   Hopefully Doc will try to deploy him more in successful lineups more often and we'll all be happy.

After reading through dozens and dozens of posts making excuses for Green's failure, I've got no problem with being dismissive of yet one more excuse.

Whatever.  'Seems like some are kinda angry and unnecessarily confrontational on this topic, though.

Who's making excuses?  I'm just trying to figure out reasons to explain what we've seen with Green.

I'm sorry, but overly simplified, 'he is who he is' doesn't really explain anything.  Nor do caustic/veiled character aspersions ('too passive', 'soft', etc.).

And of course, as you know very well, if you don't like reading these sort of threads - no one forces you, Roy.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: mmmmm on January 24, 2013, 12:03:45 AM
Quote from: CelticConcourse link=topic=61957.msg1381682#msg1381682 date
If his 16.5/7 season only got him a 13.99, I'll say PER is a flawed system! Chris Copeland at 18th? You've gotta be kidding me!

The reason why his PER number is low is because his minutes played was so high. His actual per-minute production was below average for a starter, especially with regards to rebounds.

On top of that, he couldn't defend 4s to save his life.

So even with the quickness advantage against 4s, he was still letting in WAYY more production that he was putting out.

As a 3, he's been woefully inconsistent.

Basically, there isn't any numberical evidence to support Green entering the elite halls of starting 3s.

He is right, though.  PER is a painfully flawed statistic - especially useless for his sort of comparison, imho, between different players on different teams, in different systems, with different roles.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 24, 2013, 12:05:48 AM
Wow, mmmmm, I did not notice you posted that Green is successful with Lee, Sully, Garnett.
That's my dream lineup, since when those four play, preferably with Rondo, there are no volume shooters.

Being who he is, Green wont be a chucker like Pierce, Bradley, Barbosa, Bass (not so much anymore) or Terry. With that lineup, everyone shares, there's decent spacing, and the ball goes to the best option, most often. I want to see Rondo/Lee/Green/Sully/Garnett more. Please, Doc!

It would get him to play to his strengths, finally.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on January 24, 2013, 12:08:00 AM
No player in the history of sports has had as many excuses made for him as Jeff Green. I am getting ready to head to Springfield in 15 years for his hall of fame induction ceremony -- provided he gets on the right team that runs the right system and calls plays for him and plays him enough minutes.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 24, 2013, 12:09:04 AM
No player in the history of sports has had as many excuses made for him as Jeff Green. I am getting ready to head to Springfield in 15 years for his hall of fame induction ceremony -- provided he gets on the right team that runs the right system and calls plays for him and plays him enough minutes.

Go get heart surgery, then play with debatably the fittest humans in the world, then come talk.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on January 24, 2013, 12:11:49 AM
Can someone show one piece of actual evidence that Green has improved over the years?  Everything I see looks like a consistent play level year after year.
Even if he remains a 15 ppg / 6 rpg per 35 minutes player for the duration of his contract... what exactly were you hoping to get for a contract that averages 9 million a year?

Now, this I agree with.  He basically is what you can expect from $9 million a year these days.  I just think we all wanted a bargain, rather than a market value player.

I'd like to see him do two things:

1) Put two consecutive halves of high energy next to each other in a single game.... just once... instead of this 10 minutes of good, then 10 minutes of hazy, looks-like-i-got-the-muchies-at-halftime, cement shoes, completely awful stuff. Which leads me to point two;

uhh...tell the entire team to do that first, bro
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on January 24, 2013, 12:12:01 AM
No player in the history of sports has had as many excuses made for him as Jeff Green. I am getting ready to head to Springfield in 15 years for his hall of fame induction ceremony -- provided he gets on the right team that runs the right system and calls plays for him and plays him enough minutes.

Go get heart surgery, then play with debatably the fittest humans in the world, then come talk.

What about the 5 years before the heart surgery? Stop the freaking madness.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on January 24, 2013, 12:14:21 AM
The team's goal and best interest is not for Jeff Green to be an All-star.

Jeff Green's role is to be as productive as he can be when Pierce is resting.

Jeff Green's primary use is to preserve Paul Pierce's all-star status...but so far, Doc hasn't managed Paul's minutes as well as he could have, especially when Pierce is in a shooting slump.

The great thing about Paul is he can affect the game in so many different ways when he is not shooting well.

We run a different offense than OKC, so I am not expecting Jeff Green to drop Durant type numbers on worse efficiency.

But if Green does end up starting along Rondo, how can you not expect Jeff Green to drop at least 20 and 6 rebounds a night?

1.) Rondo is not a ball hogging chucker liker R. Westbrook.

2.) Jeff Green will be a primary scoring option or at worst a 2ndary option.

3.) We will probably be a lottery team at the start and most bad teams have a lot of players who put up "empty stats".

sorry

they don't want to hear that either. they want  Jeff to be the second coming of Paul or Lebron James or something. However, they don't want him to be a nice, regular, SOLID SF.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on January 24, 2013, 12:16:31 AM
The team's goal and best interest is not for Jeff Green to be an All-star.

Jeff Green's role is to be as productive as he can be when Pierce is resting.

Jeff Green's primary use is to preserve Paul Pierce's all-star status...but so far, Doc hasn't managed Paul's minutes as well as he could have, especially when Pierce is in a shooting slump.

The great thing about Paul is he can affect the game in so many different ways when he is not shooting well.

We run a different offense than OKC, so I am not expecting Jeff Green to drop Durant type numbers on worse efficiency.

But if Green does end up starting along Rondo, how can you not expect Jeff Green to drop at least 20 and 6 rebounds a night?

1.) Rondo is not a ball hogging chucker liker R. Westbrook.

2.) Jeff Green will be a primary scoring option or at worst a 2ndary option.

3.) We will probably be a lottery team at the start and most bad teams have a lot of players who put up "empty stats".

sorry

they don't want to hear that either. they want  Jeff to be the second coming of Paul or Lebron James or something. However, they don't want him to be a nice, regular, SOLID SF.

Um, the guy who started this thread said Green will be a top 5 SF in the league in 2 years, which is ludicrous.

By the way, I forgot one of the other excuses for his performance when he first came to the Celts -- he was intimidated by the veteran superstars and didn't want to cause any disruption.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on January 24, 2013, 12:23:47 AM
The team's goal and best interest is not for Jeff Green to be an All-star.

Jeff Green's role is to be as productive as he can be when Pierce is resting.

Jeff Green's primary use is to preserve Paul Pierce's all-star status...but so far, Doc hasn't managed Paul's minutes as well as he could have, especially when Pierce is in a shooting slump.

The great thing about Paul is he can affect the game in so many different ways when he is not shooting well.

We run a different offense than OKC, so I am not expecting Jeff Green to drop Durant type numbers on worse efficiency.

But if Green does end up starting along Rondo, how can you not expect Jeff Green to drop at least 20 and 6 rebounds a night?

1.) Rondo is not a ball hogging chucker liker R. Westbrook.

2.) Jeff Green will be a primary scoring option or at worst a 2ndary option.

3.) We will probably be a lottery team at the start and most bad teams have a lot of players who put up "empty stats".

sorry

they don't want to hear that either. they want  Jeff to be the second coming of Paul or Lebron James or something. However, they don't want him to be a nice, regular, SOLID SF.

Um, the guy who started this thread said Green will be a top 5 SF in the league in 2 years, which is ludicrous.

By the way, I forgot one of the other excuses for his performance when he first came to the Celts -- he was intimidated by the veteran superstars and didn't want to cause any disruption.

i didn't start the thread, guy.  i was agreeing with another poster.

and that may very well be an excuse. didn't he or someone admit when he first came how he felt out of place or something? didn't he play like 26 games? then had a heart surgery...and has now played 41 games. Jeff has played a total of 67 games for us compared to a guy (he's backing up) that's played for 15 years. Is it plausible that's true? absolutely...why not?

Is it an excuse? Idk...you ask why someone plays poorly or not up to par and someone might find an answer for you.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on January 24, 2013, 12:59:28 AM
Can someone show one piece of actual evidence that Green has improved over the years?  Everything I see looks like a consistent play level year after year.
Even if he remains a 15 ppg / 6 rpg per 35 minutes player for the duration of his contract... what exactly were you hoping to get for a contract that averages 9 million a year?

Now, this I agree with.  He basically is what you can expect from $9 million a year these days.  I just think we all wanted a bargain, rather than a market value player.

Here's the thing, a player with 15 pp36 and 5 rp36 is not a $9 million dollar a year player at market value. There are a ton of players that are role players that put up those per36 type stats that don't make anywhere near $9 million a year or are worth anywhere near $9 million a year. You have to get 15/5 per game to get $9 million a year in today's market.

He was signed knowing that he wouldn't get a chance to start and/or put up the 36 mpg necessary for him to score 15/5 per game for at least two years and maybe more. That makes half his contract severely overpaid and makes the entire contract not an at market value contract.

And that's why most people have such a problem with the contract and call it a bad contract. The C's knew going in he would never get the 36 mpg necessary to give them the production that a $9 million a year contract warrants. Therefore, bad contract

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Fan from VT on January 24, 2013, 05:29:58 AM

If his 16.5/7 season only got him a 13.99, I'll say PER is a flawed system! Chris Copeland at 18th? You've gotta be kidding me!

As has been discussed ad nauseum, Green's 2nd season is essentially a quintessential "Average Al Harrington" season. He played a TON of minutes on a BAD team. That season looks good if you go by the standard of just counting total points, total assists, total rebounds per game and totally ignoring his massive minutes, which combined with average to ok shooting show that he was a below average rebounder and simply average shooter who got numbers only because he was the 2nd option on a bad team and forced into heavy minutes. If he'd been drafted to a playoff team, he'd have had a similar year to this one and no one would be confused as to what kind of player he is. Frankly, a good player in that situation should be grabbing boards and scoring more in those kinds of minutes.


Random thoughts:
-had a negative +/- for that bad team
-played PF>SF at a 3:1 ratio and was only marginally better at SF for those saying he'd be a completely different player at SF.

For the fifth time this thread.............. That Thunder team was a legit contender and had the fourth seed in the west with Green being a solid starter scoring 16+ points with consistency. That was years ago, he can get twenty any day now if played right.

The year you were asking about, Green's best year, the team had 23 wins.

The team then got much better as Green regressed slightly, and has continued to improve since trading him. Green peaked in year 2 and has been mostly stable/backward since the year he was gifted all the minutes and all the touches he could want for a terrible 23 win team and still capped out at 16.5/6.7, aka Al Harrington land (huge minutes, artificially ok looking total counting numbers).
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 24, 2013, 08:20:52 AM

If his 16.5/7 season only got him a 13.99, I'll say PER is a flawed system! Chris Copeland at 18th? You've gotta be kidding me!

As has been discussed ad nauseum, Green's 2nd season is essentially a quintessential "Average Al Harrington" season. He played a TON of minutes on a BAD team. That season looks good if you go by the standard of just counting total points, total assists, total rebounds per game and totally ignoring his massive minutes, which combined with average to ok shooting show that he was a below average rebounder and simply average shooter who got numbers only because he was the 2nd option on a bad team and forced into heavy minutes. If he'd been drafted to a playoff team, he'd have had a similar year to this one and no one would be confused as to what kind of player he is. Frankly, a good player in that situation should be grabbing boards and scoring more in those kinds of minutes.


Random thoughts:
-had a negative +/- for that bad team
-played PF>SF at a 3:1 ratio and was only marginally better at SF for those saying he'd be a completely different player at SF.

For the fifth time this thread.............. That Thunder team was a legit contender and had the fourth seed in the west with Green being a solid starter scoring 16+ points with consistency. That was years ago, he can get twenty any day now if played right.

The year you were asking about, Green's best year, the team had 23 wins.

The team then got much better as Green regressed slightly, and has continued to improve since trading him. Green peaked in year 2 and has been mostly stable/backward since the year he was gifted all the minutes and all the touches he could want for a terrible 23 win team and still capped out at 16.5/6.7, aka Al Harrington land (huge minutes, artificially ok looking total counting numbers).

Maybe you should check out the third year. By the way, 16.5/6.7 is solid and not too far off from Paul Pierce stats. And this was years ago, playing in the wrong position.

If the team got this kid going, he'd be a top 5 SF in the league, and no, I'm not "ludicrous".
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on January 24, 2013, 08:46:12 AM
Paul Pierce at a relatively same age as Green was putting up 25-26 ppg, 6-7 rpg, and 4-5 apg on a year in year out basis.

Those numbers dominate Green's best year.

Please don't insult Pierce by trying to say Green was or is anywhere near the player Pierce was or is. In Pierce's worst year at the age of 35, Pierce is still significantly better than Green was in his best season.

The comparison is preposterous.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Donoghus on January 24, 2013, 08:50:41 AM
The allure of "potential" can be overwhelming to some.

Saw this with Gerald Green years ago and see much of the same here now.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: TripleOT on January 24, 2013, 10:56:29 AM
Jeff Green is exactly the same player he was before heart surgery.  I wish Green supporters would stop using that as an excuse.  I don't see any medical professionals saying that Green isn't 100%, and id be shocked if they would let him play if he wasn't.

Green is what he is - and has been remarkably consistent - as a mediocre player who puts up mediocre stats when given big minutes.  He hasn't adapted at all to a 6th man role, doesn't warm to the game quickly when he gets on the floor, and isn't a go getter.  Tons of talent, but forgive the pun, very little heart (and balls). 

People who defend him see the few moments when he looks tremendous and figure "why can't Green do that all the time."  Well he can't.  The guy has never had a high motor.  Giving him 4 years guaranteed at $36 million was idiotic. One can hope that he morphs into a point every two minute 6th man who plays solid defense, but right now, that looks like a prayer.     
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on January 24, 2013, 11:00:47 AM
Jeff Green is exactly the same player he was before heart surgery.  I wish Green supporters would stop using that as an excuse.  I don't see any medical professionals saying that Green isn't 100%, and id be shocked if they would let him play if he wasn't.
You're assuming that he's fully recovered and is again the same player despite the surgery. I'm assuming that the surgery may be holding him back a bit from becoming a better player than he was. Not saying that he will necessarily be an instant allstar, but he's getting the benefit of a doubt for me at least for this season.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Chris on January 24, 2013, 11:11:44 AM
Jeff Green is exactly the same player he was before heart surgery.  I wish Green supporters would stop using that as an excuse.  I don't see any medical professionals saying that Green isn't 100%, and id be shocked if they would let him play if he wasn't.

Green is what he is - and has been remarkably consistent - as a mediocre player who puts up mediocre stats when given big minutes.  He hasn't adapted at all to a 6th man role, doesn't warm to the game quickly when he gets on the floor, and isn't a go getter.  Tons of talent, but forgive the pun, very little heart (and balls). 

People who defend him see the few moments when he looks tremendous and figure "why can't Green do that all the time."  Well he can't.  The guy has never had a high motor.  Giving him 4 years guaranteed at $36 million was idiotic. One can hope that he morphs into a point every two minute 6th man who plays solid defense, but right now, that looks like a prayer.   

I agree with all of this until you get to the contract part.

I still think he is making market value for a guy of his level (not a bargain, but not an albatross either), and while I would have preferred getting him cheaper, signing him to that contract keeps the salary slot open, and I think he is still very movable, and would probably bring back positive (albeit minimal) value.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 24, 2013, 11:17:04 AM
Paul Pierce at a relatively same age as Green was putting up 25-26 ppg, 6-7 rpg, and 4-5 apg on a year in year out basis.

Those numbers dominate Green's best year.

Please don't insult Pierce by trying to say Green was or is anywhere near the player Pierce was or is. In Pierce's worst year at the age of 35, Pierce is still significantly better than Green was in his best season.

The comparison is preposterous.

Yeah. I am a Jeff Green supporter. I think he is a fine back up SF for us and people are putting way to much pressure on him to put up crazy numbers and be our savior...

But you're right. Preparing him to Pierce is completely preposterous.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on January 24, 2013, 11:25:08 AM
Paul Pierce at a relatively same age as Green was putting up 25-26 ppg, 6-7 rpg, and 4-5 apg on a year in year out basis.

Those numbers dominate Green's best year.

Please don't insult Pierce by trying to say Green was or is anywhere near the player Pierce was or is. In Pierce's worst year at the age of 35, Pierce is still significantly better than Green was in his best season.

The comparison is preposterous.

yea...Paul Pierce is/was great. obvious stat is obvious.

The point IM trying to make is Jeff can be productive if people STOP saying Jeff should be the next Paul Pierce. Holding Jeff to these numbers is ridic, obviously. 15/6 is solid. How isn't it?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 27, 2013, 04:23:22 PM
What do you guys say now? After Green essentially won us tonight's game, and played phenomenal defense on the best player living in this world? That, in addition to some big plays, like that three-ball and that block on Allen, and finally.... the game winning defense on LeBron?

Still don't think he's a great SF?

He has the talent, just not the consistency... yet.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 27, 2013, 04:24:58 PM
Paul Pierce at a relatively same age as Green was putting up 25-26 ppg, 6-7 rpg, and 4-5 apg on a year in year out basis.

Those numbers dominate Green's best year.

Please don't insult Pierce by trying to say Green was or is anywhere near the player Pierce was or is. In Pierce's worst year at the age of 35, Pierce is still significantly better than Green was in his best season.

The comparison is preposterous.

Yeah. I am a Jeff Green supporter. I think he is a fine back up SF for us and people are putting way to much pressure on him to put up crazy numbers and be our savior...

But you're right. Preparing him to Pierce is completely preposterous.

I am saying that our current Green is just as good as our current Pierce, except for the clutchness maybe.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 27, 2013, 04:27:11 PM
Guys Green played well but James dropped 34 on us and shot a tad under 50% for the game. I think Barbosa stepped us big time too.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on January 27, 2013, 04:30:13 PM
Guys Green played well but James dropped 34 on us and shot a tad under 50% for the game. I think Barbosa stepped us big time too.

When we needed it most, he stepped up huge, MANY TIMES in a row! Clamp clamp!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: KGs Knee on January 27, 2013, 04:34:52 PM
What do you guys say now? After Green essentially won us tonight's game, and played phenomenal defense on the best player living in this world? That, in addition to some big plays, like that three-ball and that block on Allen, and finally.... the game winning defense on LeBron?

Still don't think he's a great SF?

He has the talent, just not the consistency... yet.

Jeff Green won us the game?

What game?

Green played well, but it was a complete team effort.

By the way, Pierce was the one who hit the game winner.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: gar on January 27, 2013, 04:35:39 PM
Green is picking up his game; but Green is not a max contract guy. He does not have the control and looses concentration in key moments. He may be top 10; but not a regular All Star.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: boscel33 on January 27, 2013, 04:39:06 PM
I wonder if Jeff has to much Toine in him.  He shows the flash to take it to the hoop, but settles for the outside shot too much.  Thought???  I can only think of what might have been if Toine would have gotten it into his head that he was a low post player!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 27, 2013, 04:40:48 PM
Woah. Green showed up... he is being paid to perform every game as he did this afternoon. Still a massive underachiever. And seeing that dunk, and the rebounds, makes me nauseous more than happy. Completely lacks grit.

KG and Pierce won us that game. Talk about grit. Terry and others stepped up, too. Barbosa and he ran well in the 4th... couldn't understand Doc's rotations at all, it was like musical Celtics, but it worked!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 27, 2013, 04:42:27 PM
Have to add that I was really impressed with both Bradley and Lee's defense.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on January 27, 2013, 04:43:33 PM
1. No he is STILL NOT a great small forward. Please stop.

2. Lebron James had 34 points today

3. Green had a very nice game. That is two in a row. Now, does he disappear as usual for the next 2-3 games.

This stuff is so ridiculous it makes me cringe.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: xmuscularghandix on January 27, 2013, 04:52:32 PM
A major question i had for Jeff Green was his ability to get buckets when matched up against All-Star SF's... guys like Lebron and Deng have held him to nothing. But today he actually showed me a little bit.

His footwork still blows though.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 27, 2013, 04:55:50 PM
1. No he is STILL NOT a great small forward. Please stop.

2. Lebron James had 34 points today

3. Green had a very nice game. That is two in a row. Now, does he disappear as usual for the next 2-3 games.

This stuff is so ridiculous it makes me cringe.

You neglected to look at the minutes played.  Lebron averages 26.4 PPG in 38.4 MPG.  Lebron played 52 minutes today.  His average per 52 minutes is 35.75 PPG.

Plus Lebron was fired up today and was feeling it - the majority of shots he made were contested about as well as is physically possible.

Without the defense Green played on him I'm estimating he'd have had 45 - 50 in this game, and considering we only won by two that is more than enough to make the difference between a W and an L tonight.

Make no mistake - Green defended him well.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 10, 2013, 09:31:45 PM
Now, how clutch is this kid? SFs that can shoot better than him are only the big-4 (Melo, James, Durant, Pierce)... JUST ANOTHER GREAT QUALITY

Without him, we would have lost today. ;)
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 10, 2013, 09:34:57 PM
Nine players shot double-digit field goals today. Only one of us shot at more than 50%: JEFFREY LYNN GREEN
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Atzar on February 10, 2013, 09:43:13 PM
Now, how clutch is this kid? SFs that can shoot better than him are only the big-4 (Melo, James, Durant, Pierce)... JUST ANOTHER GREAT QUALITY

Without him, we would have lost today. ;)

His eFG% on jumpshots is .398.  That's not even good, much less elite.

I agree with the second part of your post though. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 10, 2013, 09:45:43 PM
Now, how clutch is this kid? SFs that can shoot better than him are only the big-4 (Melo, James, Durant, Pierce)... JUST ANOTHER GREAT QUALITY

Without him, we would have lost today. ;)

His eFG% on jumpshots is .398.  That's not even good, much less elite.

I agree with the second part of your post though.

You know what they say, "makes 'em when they count."

Pierce, Garnett, Terry, Green all did that today! Three of those maybe HOFers. The fourth.... our favorite!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ssspence on February 10, 2013, 09:46:46 PM
Sure - maybe top 5 in the Altantic Division?

He's averaging 10 and 3. His assist to turnover ratio is horrible, and he's arguably the worst rebounder for his size in the NBA.

At least he's starting to actually contribute on defense. It's a start.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ScottHow on February 10, 2013, 09:56:11 PM
Boy CelticConcourse, when you love, you love hard huh? lol
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: timobusa on February 10, 2013, 10:00:03 PM
Nine players shot double-digit field goals today. Only one of us shot at more than 50%: JEFFREY LYNN GREEN

Lynn is his middle name?
Hahahahaha
Didn't know that.
We have guys named Courtney and Lynn...

That both played hard tonight!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 22, 2013, 11:13:04 PM
I just have to bring this up.

I'm so proud of him. He is a Celtic!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ausbacker on February 22, 2013, 11:13:52 PM
I just have to bring this up.

I'm so proud of him. He is a Celtic!
If this is the Jeff Green Ainge and Rivers traded for you can build a team around him.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: guava_wrench on February 22, 2013, 11:15:47 PM
Now, how clutch is this kid? SFs that can shoot better than him are only the big-4 (Melo, James, Durant, Pierce)... JUST ANOTHER GREAT QUALITY

Without him, we would have lost today. ;)
I am gagging on sarcasm.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 22, 2013, 11:16:05 PM
I just have to bring this up.

I'm so proud of him. He is a Celtic!
If this is the Jeff Green Ainge and Rivers traded for you can build a team around him.

First, I'm grateful he'sin my Pick Two team.

But really, he is a top-3 player on this team and his upside isn't nearly reached. This outburst is the first of many.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: LEHGOCELTICS on February 22, 2013, 11:18:47 PM
hahaha love the optimism, but even I wouldn't go this far
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 22, 2013, 11:21:07 PM
hahaha love the optimism, but even I wouldn't go this far

Will he ever get the respect (I think) he deserves? Unlikely.

That surgery was a bummer, and if he hadn't had it god knows how good he could be. But I think he learned a lot from it too. We can only hope Rondo pulls a Green and comes back strong
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ItStaysYang on February 22, 2013, 11:22:03 PM
Nothing in Green's career justifies your optimism. He's a 15 points per 36 minutes guy on mediocre efficiency. That's who he is.

You get so angry when anyone says they think Green has potential. He looked pretty good tonight... and has continued to look good for weeks now. With nothing but more upside.

No, maybe not top 5 SF, but certainly potential to be better than 15/36, especially with the right squad
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: rondohondo on February 22, 2013, 11:29:20 PM
There was like a 4 game stretch when Jeff played in okc ,Durant was out ,and jeff scored over 30 a few times and averaged in the mid 20's.

I am starting to wonder if he can be a go to scorer like Harden has turned out to be when he got the chance to be the #1 option?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on February 22, 2013, 11:33:52 PM
There was like a 4 game stretch when Jeff played in okc ,Durant was out ,and jeff scored over 30 a few times and averaged in the mid 20's.

I am starting to wonder if he can be a go to scorer like Harden has turned out to be when he got the chance to be the #1 option?

I think he's going to have to be.
I'd like to see him start again against the Blazers to see if it's the same thing.

either way...there's nothing JG can do for these nonbelievers
top 5? maybe not
possibly in scoring if he's a top option tho...I see why not

whatever they do in OKC...they do it well lol
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on February 22, 2013, 11:35:02 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ItStaysYang on February 22, 2013, 11:41:04 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

you are such a troll
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on February 22, 2013, 11:42:09 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

you are such a troll

Bwahahahahha.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 22, 2013, 11:43:11 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

you are such a troll

I think some fans aren't giving Green a chance to be a star.

Two of his big qualities that appeared recently were treys and blocks (5 tonight!!)
Along with other qualities, it make Jeff dangerous from anywhere on the court
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on February 22, 2013, 11:43:36 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

you are such a troll

Bwahahahahha.

yea. it's actually pretty annoying, tho lol.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ItStaysYang on February 22, 2013, 11:43:45 PM
I wasn't commending you, I'm sitting here wishing I've never had to read anything you post
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wahz on February 22, 2013, 11:44:45 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on February 22, 2013, 11:50:15 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

I don't hate him. The guy played a great game tonight. I have posted that in at least three different threads including the game thread. I have also posted numerous times that he has had a solid month. That said,  he needs to continue to do it -- not score 31 points, but be a dependable guy. My point is that he is still not close to a top 5 small forward in this league. If h ever gets there I will et crow.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on February 22, 2013, 11:50:43 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on February 22, 2013, 11:53:35 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

So happy I can entertain you all.  :-*
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wahz on February 22, 2013, 11:56:59 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: yagru on February 23, 2013, 12:00:47 AM
if jeff is a starter next year he could very well be an all start.. I think we are going to see big things from him. The big difference between jeff and other potential talents is that his ceiling is so [dang] high.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on February 23, 2013, 12:02:31 AM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on February 23, 2013, 12:05:54 AM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

ironic you bring up high horses, vinnie. lol
i mean...you have nothing nice to say about the guy
when will he score 15? when will he score 20? when will he get 5 rebounds? when will he get 10?
he has been playing MUCH better since january, which is the problem. He's built a VERY consistent stretch and I think it's safe to say he's pretty much locked in.

what are you? a Bass fan or something?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: csfansince60s on February 23, 2013, 12:07:37 AM
Green made two shots, one from each elbow tonight that reminded me of someone.

With his back to the basket,he dribbled right,dribbled left, faced up, one dribble, dipped his shoulder into the defender, rocked back and hit the fallback fade away.

He must've picked that up in practice from what's his name.

Kid's learning and making progress. Even went left a few times tonight.Glad for him.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on February 23, 2013, 12:09:24 AM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

ironic you bring up high horses, vinnie. lol
i mean...you have nothing nice to say about the guy
when will he score 15? when will he score 20? when will he get 5 rebounds? when will he get 10?
he has been playing MUCH better since january, which is the problem. He's built a VERY consistent stretch and I think it's safe to say he's pretty much locked in.

what are you? a Bass fan or something?

What do I have to say about the guy? I have praised him left and right tonight. The game he played tonight is among the top 3 played by any Celtic player this year. As for Bass, Green is a far better player. I wanted Bass traded.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wahz on February 23, 2013, 12:34:57 AM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on February 23, 2013, 12:40:48 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Jon on February 23, 2013, 12:46:19 PM
Green made two shots, one from each elbow tonight that reminded me of someone.

With his back to the basket,he dribbled right,dribbled left, faced up, one dribble, dipped his shoulder into the defender, rocked back and hit the fallback fade away.

He must've picked that up in practice from what's his name.

Kid's learning and making progress. Even went left a few times tonight.Glad for him.

Exactly my thoughts last night.  Same with the drives to the hoop.  Instead of contorting around contact to get an unhindered shot, he embraced it, flailed, chucked the shot up, and got to the line.  Reminds me of someone else I can't quite place too...

Still too early to make proclamations, but I think we are seeing developments in his game that show he can be more than just a pretty good scoring 3. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: hpantazo on February 23, 2013, 12:57:42 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

green has play, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

His doctors had said a year ago that he wouldn't be fully back up to speed from his surgery until about March, which looks right on target. Sure he was cleared to play last summer, but that in no way means he was 100% recovered. He lost a year not only from pro basketball, but from any physical activity. Just look what happens to guys that are out of the league for a few months, they need a year to get back up to speed. He couldn't even exercise for almost a year, never mind play basketball in his driveway.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on February 23, 2013, 01:05:13 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

  I don't know a ton about the procedure he had or recovery times but it seems like the time it takes to get back to full range of motion and trusting your body after whatever they had to do to his chest to get to his heart could be significant.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on February 23, 2013, 01:07:13 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

green has play, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

His doctors had said a year ago that he wouldn't be fully back up to speed from his surgery until about March, which looks right on target. Sure he was cleared to play last summer, but that in no way means he was 100% recovered. He lost a year not only from pro basketball, but from any physical activity. Just look what happens to guys that are out of the league for a few months, they need a year to get back up to speed. He couldn't even exercise for almost a year, never mind play basketball in his driveway.
Excuses. Just because his doctors said he would be at full speed come March doesn't mean he wasn't earlier.

I am sure Adrian Peterson's doctors thought he wouldn't get up to speed for a year as well. Professional athletes have a different constitution and access to better recovery drugs and physical training and trainers than the average person.

He's looked in excellent condition to me for months. I think his change over the last month or so is more mental than physical. He isn't relearning the system, he isn't playing tentatively like he's thinking the game, he's aggressive both offensively and defensively. I don't see how any of that is heart related. Its mental.

BTW, this goes back to the whole "team playing better without Rondo" thing. I feel a bunch of players on this team didn't start to be 100% invested and committed to this team until about the time Rondo went down. If they all had played with the passion, aggresiveness and dedication to winning when Rondo was healthy, this team would have had about 7-8 more wins than it did.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: hpantazo on February 23, 2013, 01:11:10 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

green has play, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

His doctors had said a year ago that he wouldn't be fully back up to speed from his surgery until about March, which looks right on target. Sure he was cleared to play last summer, but that in no way means he was 100% recovered. He lost a year not only from pro basketball, but from any physical activity. Just look what happens to guys that are out of the league for a few months, they need a year to get back up to speed. He couldn't even exercise for almost a year, never mind play basketball in his driveway.
Excuses. Just because his doctors said he would be at full speed come March doesn't mean he wasn't earlier.

I am sure Adrian Peterson's doctors thought he wouldn't get up to speed for a year as well. Professional athletes have a different constitution and access to better recovery drugs and physical training and trainers than the average person.

He's looked in excellent condition to me for months. I think his change over the last month or so is more mental than physical. He isn't relearning the system, he isn't playing tentatively like he's thinking the game, he's aggressive both offensively and defensively. I don't see how any of that is heart related. Its mental.

BTW, this goes back to the whole "team playing better without Rondo" thing. I feel a bunch of players on this team didn't start to be 100% invested and committed to this team until about the time Rondo went down. If they all had played with the passion, aggresiveness and dedication to winning when Rondo was healthy, this team would have had about 7-8 more wins than it did.

That's the thing, it's not related to a weak heart, it's mental, in that he didn't play ball for almost a year, but that is due to his surgery. It takes a while to get your timing and motion and instinct back. Just look at the players that went to china during the lockout. They were even playing pro-ball, but playing in a slower league caused them to look washed up for almost a year after they returned. Just imagine what not playing at all does to a player when he's back in the NBA.

It's not "excuses". It is what it is.

Some of the shots he took for example, in Nov and Dec. he wasn't even looking at the basket before to shoot! He made drives going off the wrong foot and ending up at weird angles, etc. Things that you know he wouldn't do if he was himself.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 23, 2013, 01:31:10 PM
But no matter how you look at it, he's improved a lot from 2011 and the beginning of this year. How could you not be at least a little optimistic?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Evantime34 on February 23, 2013, 01:33:01 PM
I disagree with an earlier comment that he has been recovered for months and months. The biggest way heart surgery effects you is fatigue both cardiovascular fatigue and muscle fatigue. Early in the season he was able to make very athletic plays but he couldn't sustain them over a long period of time.

Just think about doing anything when you are tired vs doing it when you have your full wind. That he was able to do anything for us early in the season was an amazing feat.

He is following the pattern of any injured player, he has improved as the season has progressed. A lot of people attribute it to having more of an opportunity, but earlier in the year recovering from heart surgery I don't think he could have handled more minutes. To me he is attacking the rim more now because he has the energy to do so.

What he is now is an elite athlete with a good shooting touch. He still has a lot of room for improvement but with the opportunity to be a top option in our offense and the confidence from the coaches to do so I expect him to only improve, because to me his agression is improving which will help long term.

For me he will become a number one scorer for this team when he improves upon the following. 1. Left hand dribble, right now he primarily goes right when he becomes more comfortable driving with the other hand he will be very difficult to stop. 2. A counter move in the post, all his post moves end with a right handed hook over his left shoulder, if he could add a solid baseline drop step or a lefty hook he would make it so he couldn't be guarded by smaller players.

I expect him to improve upon these things and be a top 5 sf in two years. To me this recent play has shown that he will be capable of being the go to scorer on this team.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Kane3387 on February 23, 2013, 01:34:02 PM
As of now I have, in order:

1) James
2) KD
3) Anthony
4) Pierce
5) Gay

Outside looking in - George, Granger, Igoudala, Deng

Up and comers like Leonard, Batum, and Barnes are the tier I would put Green in.

Of the top 5 Pierce is the only one whose window is almost closed. James, KD, and Melo will be there in two years. Paul George will likely join them by then, but I am real high on him.

Green may have a shot at that 5th spot, but as you can see above there is a lot of competition for it.

*Josh Smith would be 5th but I see him as more of a PF.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on February 23, 2013, 01:38:44 PM
As of now I have, in order:

1) James
2) KD
3) Anthony
4) Pierce
5) Gay

Outside looking in - George, Granger, Igoudala, Deng

Up and comers like Leonard, Batum, and Barnes are the tier I would put Green in.

Of the top 5 Pierce is the only one whose window is almost closed. James, KD, and Melo will be there in two years. Paul George will likely join them by then, but I am real high on him.

Green may have a shot at that 5th spot, but as you can see above there is a lot of competition for it.

*Josh Smith would be 5th but I see him as more of a PF.
Paul George is absolutely better than Pierce right now -- comparable offensive contribution plus shutdown defense. I love Paul, but this ship has sailed already.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 23, 2013, 01:41:05 PM
As of now I have, in order:

1) James
2) KD
3) Anthony
4) Pierce
5) Gay

Outside looking in - George, Granger, Igoudala, Deng

Up and comers like Leonard, Batum, and Barnes are the tier I would put Green in.

Of the top 5 Pierce is the only one whose window is almost closed. James, KD, and Melo will be there in two years. Paul George will likely join them by then, but I am real high on him.

Green may have a shot at that 5th spot, but as you can see above there is a lot of competition for it.

*Josh Smith would be 5th but I see him as more of a PF.

If anyone is fifth now, it's George not Gay!

But yea, I see Pierces window closing and Green competing with George and Batum for top 5. The rest don't have as much upside in my opinion, andI think Gays also gonna be worse. He definitely has a chance to be top 7, but that isn't enough for me.

And I've been saying this since he sucked ;D
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Bender B. Rodriguez on February 23, 2013, 02:26:56 PM
As of now I have, in order:

1) James
2) KD
3) Anthony
4) Pierce
5) Gay

Outside looking in - George, Granger, Igoudala, Deng

Up and comers like Leonard, Batum, and Barnes are the tier I would put Green in.

Of the top 5 Pierce is the only one whose window is almost closed. James, KD, and Melo will be there in two years. Paul George will likely join them by then, but I am real high on him.

Green may have a shot at that 5th spot, but as you can see above there is a lot of competition for it.

*Josh Smith would be 5th but I see him as more of a PF.

If anyone is fifth now, it's George not Gay!

But yea, I see Pierces window closing and Green competing with George and Batum for top 5. The rest don't have as much upside in my opinion, andI think Gays also gonna be worse. He definitely has a chance to be top 7, but that isn't enough for me.

And I've been saying this since he sucked ;D

And since when has Gay not sucked?  ;D
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on February 23, 2013, 03:15:41 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.

The freaking surgery has nothing to do with my commentary on the guy's play. Of course it matters -- in the same way that Wilcox' surgery matters. The point I am trying to make is that until the last month, Green has played with the Celtics the same way he played for his first 5 years in the league. Is that too hard to understand?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: cman88 on February 23, 2013, 03:23:26 PM
i'm not sure how you can look at greens play the last month and say he's "playing the same way he has the past 5 seasons in the league" even just from the eye test.

over the past month he's shooting 50+% and is very aggressive on both the offensive/defensive end...right now he is shooting nearly 46% for the season...which is a career high for him

even his offensive moves, last night watching I sensed he's picked up some of pierces moves

what he is showing is CONSISTENCY that has been a criticism of him lacking over the past 5 years....not only in scoring, but even when he has a subpar night, he seems to make an impact on the game.

and if he can keep that consistency up, danny has snagged a starting calibar SF on cheap $$
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CoachBo on February 23, 2013, 03:24:07 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

This one surprises me, coming from you, Nick.

I would imagine you'll display the same tolerance for Rondo when his game is mediocre out of the gate from knee surgery.

A year of rust is a difficult thing for any athlete - at any age - to shake off.

As is the careful use that an injury - or a heart surgery - requires immediately upon return.

You are badly off-point here, Nick.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on February 23, 2013, 03:36:01 PM
i'm not sure how you can look at greens play the last month and say he's "playing the same way he has the past 5 seasons in the league" even just from the eye test.

over the past month he's shooting 50+% and is very aggressive on both the offensive/defensive end...right now he is shooting nearly 46% for the season...which is a career high for him

even his offensive moves, last night watching I sensed he's picked up some of pierces moves

what he is showing is CONSISTENCY that has been a criticism of him lacking over the past 5 years....not only in scoring, but even when he has a subpar night, he seems to make an impact on the game.

and if he can keep that consistency up, danny has snagged a starting calibar SF on cheap $$

That is exactly what I wrote. I said UNTIL THE LAST MONTH he had been playing exactly the way her played his whole career. The last month he has been far better. No argument from me here.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: cman88 on February 23, 2013, 03:55:38 PM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 23, 2013, 04:04:36 PM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

I don't buy much into the Rondo being out phenomenon coinciding with Jeff Green playing better. Sure, there's some of that, but Green was already showing signs of improving plenty before Rajon went down.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Kane3387 on February 23, 2013, 04:45:22 PM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

I don't buy much into the Rondo being out phenomenon coinciding with Jeff Green playing better. Sure, there's some of that, but Green was already showing signs of improving plenty before Rajon went down.

I do, the ball is in his hands more and are pace an offense has really picked up. Unless he's running green isn't a great off ball player. Though his corner three is pretty consistent.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 23, 2013, 04:54:05 PM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

I don't buy much into the Rondo being out phenomenon coinciding with Jeff Green playing better. Sure, there's some of that, but Green was already showing signs of improving plenty before Rajon went down.

I do, the ball is in his hands more and are pace an offense has really picked up. Unless he's running green isn't a great off ball player. Though his corner three is pretty consistent.

Prior to Rondo going down, Jeff Green was shooting 48% from the floor for the month of January. While now that he has a bigger role, he's become more productive, there was already a marked improvement of the recent Jeff Green compared to the one that began the season.

Also to remember, is that he was spending a lot of time with our bench unit with Terry and Lee, which meant he was already being favored a taste of the recent flavor of Celtics basketball.

His February has been pretty spectacular though.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on February 23, 2013, 05:04:36 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

This one surprises me, coming from you, Nick.

I would imagine you'll display the same tolerance for Rondo when his game is mediocre out of the gate from knee surgery.

A year of rust is a difficult thing for any athlete - at any age - to shake off.

As is the careful use that an injury - or a heart surgery - requires immediately upon return.

You are badly off-point here, Nick.
I don't think I am because I am firmly of the belief that his better play recently is mental. His per minute stats from November to late January were exactly the same as his career stats and just about every year of his career. The only thing that fluctuated his per game stats were his minutes played.

I don't think his play to begin the year was sub par. I think it was exactly what should have been expected from Green if 100% healthy.

I think his increased play is mental. I think he's acclimating himself to playing in this system and I think it has tremendously helped him being influenced by Pierce and KG for the year. Green isn't taking plays off anymore. He brings a different attitude to his play. He is aggressive and playing with more consistency.

My guess is, as someone said earlier, that something finally clicked in him. He understands what it takes to be successful and saw that doing what he always did wasn't working. So something changed and I don't think it was his physical being. I think it was his drive, determination, experience, knowledge that changed and was responsible for his change of performance, not his health.

And that is why I think his surgery is unimportant in the discussion.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: triboy16f on February 23, 2013, 05:26:24 PM
lets not jump the gun and see what he does in the playoffs first. That is the true test if you are a nice player vs average one.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Kane3387 on February 23, 2013, 05:43:41 PM
I don't think Paul George is above Pierce yet. Not right now this season.

If we go H2H against the Pacers I think we will see Pierce outplay George.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Kane3387 on February 23, 2013, 05:45:52 PM
Quote
Prior to Rondo going down, Jeff Green was shooting 48% from the floor for the month of January. While now that he has a bigger role, he's become more productive, there was already a marked improvement of the recent Jeff Green compared to the one that began the season.

Good point.

TP
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on February 23, 2013, 06:02:43 PM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on February 23, 2013, 07:48:07 PM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: jdz101 on February 23, 2013, 08:05:15 PM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

While I kinda appreciate the whole spiritual commitment vibe, I think it's the fact that these guys are given more freedom to do what they can offensively with the ball in their hands. This being the better thing for their confidence than them running to spots on the floor and maybe having a 10% chance of getting the ball passed to them.

The increased confidence in each other on offense is leading to better commitment on defense. This new celtics incarnation is a demon at forcing turnovers.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wahz on February 23, 2013, 08:17:19 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

This one surprises me, coming from you, Nick.

I would imagine you'll display the same tolerance for Rondo when his game is mediocre out of the gate from knee surgery.

A year of rust is a difficult thing for any athlete - at any age - to shake off.

As is the careful use that an injury - or a heart surgery - requires immediately upon return.

You are badly off-point here, Nick.
I don't think I am because I am firmly of the belief that his better play recently is mental. His per minute stats from November to late January were exactly the same as his career stats and just about every year of his career. The only thing that fluctuated his per game stats were his minutes played.

I don't think his play to begin the year was sub par. I think it was exactly what should have been expected from Green if 100% healthy.

I think his increased play is mental. I think he's acclimating himself to playing in this system and I think it has tremendously helped him being influenced by Pierce and KG for the year. Green isn't taking plays off anymore. He brings a different attitude to his play. He is aggressive and playing with more consistency.

My guess is, as someone said earlier, that something finally clicked in him. He understands what it takes to be successful and saw that doing what he always did wasn't working. So something changed and I don't think it was his physical being. I think it was his drive, determination, experience, knowledge that changed and was responsible for his change of performance, not his health.

And that is why I think his surgery is unimportant in the discussion.

Ask Jeff Green if the surgery was important. What do you think he would say?

He is a very young man who faced death. That may not be so unusual, but its unusual for a young, apparently healthy black man who has gotten to the NBA without a drug problem.

He is an obviously thoughtful young man. Everything we see with him tells us he has taken a careful approach to trying to fit in, to being an excellent teammate on and off the court and this process was disrupted for around a year by the surgery. He is trying to make his way, and he had to deal with a health issue that he could die from.

He is gathering momentum. He has been very careful to not impose his will but he has more and more as he gains confidence. Its in his nature to be this way and this process was delayed. He had a full year off. And yet he came back and played at the beginning not a lot different than he had before. It was incredible really.

Now he is showing flashes of what he can do, why Danny got him. Expanding on his play at OKC. Coach Bo will know better than I, but I think this Lebron like shot blocking off the backboard is new, as his sizing his guy up and blowing by him down the lane. He is also making the three better than before.

For those of you who have had anything like this health issue, you will have experienced its more like 18 months until you are all back in every way, mental, physical, spiritual.  His peak imho will be around May to June. I also imagine his detractors will like him to fail so that they can be right. I hope he does well and hits the tremendous potential he has.

Why anyone would dislike and root against this guy is beyond my comprehension. Celtics fans rooting against a young Celtics player or diminishing the accomplishments of a guy who has come back from an awfully bad break.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: hpantazo on February 23, 2013, 08:23:43 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

This one surprises me, coming from you, Nick.

I would imagine you'll display the same tolerance for Rondo when his game is mediocre out of the gate from knee surgery.

A year of rust is a difficult thing for any athlete - at any age - to shake off.

As is the careful use that an injury - or a heart surgery - requires immediately upon return.

You are badly off-point here, Nick.
I don't think I am because I am firmly of the belief that his better play recently is mental. His per minute stats from November to late January were exactly the same as his career stats and just about every year of his career. The only thing that fluctuated his per game stats were his minutes played.

I don't think his play to begin the year was sub par. I think it was exactly what should have been expected from Green if 100% healthy.

I think his increased play is mental. I think he's acclimating himself to playing in this system and I think it has tremendously helped him being influenced by Pierce and KG for the year. Green isn't taking plays off anymore. He brings a different attitude to his play. He is aggressive and playing with more consistency.

My guess is, as someone said earlier, that something finally clicked in him. He understands what it takes to be successful and saw that doing what he always did wasn't working. So something changed and I don't think it was his physical being. I think it was his drive, determination, experience, knowledge that changed and was responsible for his change of performance, not his health.

And that is why I think his surgery is unimportant in the discussion.

Ask Jeff Green if the surgery was important. What do you think he would say?

He is a very young man who faced death. That may not be so unusual, but its unusual for a young, apparently healthy black man who has gotten to the NBA without a drug problem.

He is an obviously thoughtful young man. Everything we see with him tells us he has taken a careful approach to trying to fit in, to being an excellent teammate on and off the court and this process was disrupted for around a year by the surgery. He is trying to make his way, and he had to deal with a health issue that he could die from.

He is gathering momentum. He has been very careful to not impose his will but he has more and more as he gains confidence. Its in his nature to be this way and this process was delayed. He had a full year off. And yet he came back and played at the beginning not a lot different than he had before. It was incredible really.

Now he is showing flashes of what he can do, why Danny got him. Expanding on his play at OKC. Coach Bo will know better than I, but I think this Lebron like shot blocking off the backboard is new, as his sizing his guy up and blowing by him down the lane. He is also making the three better than before.

For those of you who have had anything like this health issue, you will have experienced its more like 18 months until you are all back in every way.  His peak imho will be around May to June. I also imagine his detractors will like him to fail so that they can be right. I hope he does well and hits the tremendous potential he has.

Why anyone would dislike and root against this guy is beyond my comprehension. Celtics fans rooting against a young player of who has come back from an awfully bad break.

I see what Nick is trying to say, but I think where he is wrong is that he's trying to separate the mental part of Green's improvement from recovery from his surgery. The two factors are strongly linked. A major part of his recover from surgery is mental. Getting mentally back to where he was pre-surgery had to happen first before he could then take steps to expand and improve his game.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on February 23, 2013, 09:17:37 PM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

While I kinda appreciate the whole spiritual commitment vibe, I think it's the fact that these guys are given more freedom to do what they can offensively with the ball in their hands. This being the better thing for their confidence than them running to spots on the floor and maybe having a 10% chance of getting the ball passed to them.

The increased confidence in each other on offense is leading to better commitment on defense. This new celtics incarnation is a demon at forcing turnovers.

  The claims that Rondo doesn't pass the ball are absolutely hilarious. And, unsurprisingly, we force more turnovers when Rondo was playing than we have since he's been out.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on February 23, 2013, 09:24:55 PM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

  There's definitely more effort from some of the players since Rondo's been out. There was also PP and Terry getting somewhat healthier. But not having set lineups, set rotations, set roles or consistent minutes for players will have a negative effect on the team as well.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: jdz101 on February 23, 2013, 09:48:11 PM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

While I kinda appreciate the whole spiritual commitment vibe, I think it's the fact that these guys are given more freedom to do what they can offensively with the ball in their hands. This being the better thing for their confidence than them running to spots on the floor and maybe having a 10% chance of getting the ball passed to them.

The increased confidence in each other on offense is leading to better commitment on defense. This new celtics incarnation is a demon at forcing turnovers.

 The claims that Rondo doesn't pass the ball are absolutely hilarious. And, unsurprisingly, we force more turnovers when Rondo was playing than we have since he's been out.

At what point have I claimed that rondo doesnt pass the ball? He is a great passer, especially when he facilitates KG and Pierce. However, Green, Courtney Lee, and Jason Terry are touching the ball more and allowed to create more now that rondo is out. This is of great benefit to them. You only have to open your eyes to see it.

I'd like to see a transition efficiency/overall numbers comparison between the rondo celtics and non-rondo celtics aswell. Was having him at the point actually increasing their transition efficiency?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 23, 2013, 10:10:49 PM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

  There's definitely more effort from some of the players since Rondo's been out. There was also PP and Terry getting somewhat healthier. But not having set lineups, set rotations, set roles or consistent minutes for players will have a negative effect on the team as well.

So we're back to the "more effort" myth.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Rtpas11 on February 23, 2013, 10:29:21 PM
Jeff Green >>> Josh Smith
Glad we didn't trade him. I believe with opportunity he'll put up better efficient #'s
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 23, 2013, 10:36:18 PM
Look. If you really are that upset with Jeff, just go kill him.

Give him a chance already. On every game I've watched since Jeff returned, he's gotten nothing but admiration from the commentators. I don't see why you guys just keep on disrespecting. Would you rather he just sit on the bench, or in a hospital for the next year and a half? This is a young player who needs time to develop. There's a reason we didn't sign him to a one-year deal, but a four-year deal. There's obviously something that he has, which we want. He came back from freaking open-heart surgery, which is tens of hundreds of times worse than an ACL injury.

You guys just don't seem to understand that Jeff is a human too. He's not a robot who just had a "glitch in his system" that can be fixed seamlessly (no pun intended). He needs time, just like any other person in the world to ever live, to work his way back. We didn't expect LeBron and we didn't expect Sasha Pavlovic. We were hoping he was a 9-million dollar player, an All-Star. And in the first few months, he was far from it. He showed bursts of excellence, but bursts don't mean much to you guys.

He's been averaging the same stats his whole career, and this year's per36 stats aren't any different. What's different are his experiences. I'm willing to bet my life, that there isn't a day that passes in which he doesn't realize how lucky he is to be alive. He has the freakish athleticism and size that we all expected (maybe unfairly) from him. But think of the countless things he hasn't done wrong. He's a good teammate. He doesn't blurt to the media. I don't remember him getting into any fights with any teammates. He doesn't complain about losing. KG, Doc, Pierce would probably all agree this guy is one of the toughest guys on this team.

His upside is huge, and it's not outrageous to think he can have a 50-point game every so often. He has the post moves. He has the three-point shot. He has the hook shots. He has the jumper. He has the dunk. His game is as varied as anybody in the league. "Stronger than the 3, faster than the 4." If played right, he poses the most mismatches we could ever find. The number of players in the league who can defend him well probably is in the single-digits. If he's not playing behind Kevin Durant (one of the best SFs ever) or Paul Pierce (one of the best SFs ever), he sure does have a good chance at success.

And though he might not be consistent from game-to-game, he sure is consistent throughout his years. You're all upset that he hasn't played better than his OKC days, but he hasn't played much worse either. In the very worst case scenario, he keeps these "meh" stats going, and we still didn't overpay him like crazy. At his current stats, he would still get paid $4 million or so. Except he has three more years to change all of our minds, and I think that's gonna happen.

Of course I'm just being hopeful, but given an opportunity to thrive, I am still convinced he can be a top 5 SF in this league (even though this post probably makes you think that I think he's the greatest human to ever live). Apart from KD/LBJ/Melo, there isn't that much competition at the SF position. Best case scenario, he outplays Batum, George, etc. and nears where Carmelo played at Denver. Worst case, he plays the same way he always has, and we overpaid him. But no matter what, he's worth the chance. If we didn't pay him, someone would have (albeit not as much), but it's irrational to call him a bust when he hasn't been given a chance to shine.

Let Green play! :P
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CoachBo on February 23, 2013, 11:03:03 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

This one surprises me, coming from you, Nick.

I would imagine you'll display the same tolerance for Rondo when his game is mediocre out of the gate from knee surgery.

A year of rust is a difficult thing for any athlete - at any age - to shake off.

As is the careful use that an injury - or a heart surgery - requires immediately upon return.

You are badly off-point here, Nick.
I don't think I am because I am firmly of the belief that his better play recently is mental. His per minute stats from November to late January were exactly the same as his career stats and just about every year of his career. The only thing that fluctuated his per game stats were his minutes played.

I don't think his play to begin the year was sub par. I think it was exactly what should have been expected from Green if 100% healthy.

I think his increased play is mental. I think he's acclimating himself to playing in this system and I think it has tremendously helped him being influenced by Pierce and KG for the year. Green isn't taking plays off anymore. He brings a different attitude to his play. He is aggressive and playing with more consistency.

My guess is, as someone said earlier, that something finally clicked in him. He understands what it takes to be successful and saw that doing what he always did wasn't working. So something changed and I don't think it was his physical being. I think it was his drive, determination, experience, knowledge that changed and was responsible for his change of performance, not his health.

And that is why I think his surgery is unimportant in the discussion.

Ask Jeff Green if the surgery was important. What do you think he would say?

He is a very young man who faced death. That may not be so unusual, but its unusual for a young, apparently healthy black man who has gotten to the NBA without a drug problem.

He is an obviously thoughtful young man. Everything we see with him tells us he has taken a careful approach to trying to fit in, to being an excellent teammate on and off the court and this process was disrupted for around a year by the surgery. He is trying to make his way, and he had to deal with a health issue that he could die from.

He is gathering momentum. He has been very careful to not impose his will but he has more and more as he gains confidence. Its in his nature to be this way and this process was delayed. He had a full year off. And yet he came back and played at the beginning not a lot different than he had before. It was incredible really.

Now he is showing flashes of what he can do, why Danny got him. Expanding on his play at OKC. Coach Bo will know better than I, but I think this Lebron like shot blocking off the backboard is new, as his sizing his guy up and blowing by him down the lane. He is also making the three better than before.

For those of you who have had anything like this health issue, you will have experienced its more like 18 months until you are all back in every way.  His peak imho will be around May to June. I also imagine his detractors will like him to fail so that they can be right. I hope he does well and hits the tremendous potential he has.

Why anyone would dislike and root against this guy is beyond my comprehension. Celtics fans rooting against a young player of who has come back from an awfully bad break.

I see what Nick is trying to say, but I think where he is wrong is that he's trying to separate the mental part of Green's improvement from recovery from his surgery. The two factors are strongly linked. A major part of his recover from surgery is mental. Getting mentally back to where he was pre-surgery had to happen first before he could then take steps to expand and improve his game.

You cannot separate the two, regardless of the type of injury. That's where he veers into the ditch on this subject. Coached a lot of injured players in my career, and this factor never varies. They are inevitably linked.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on February 24, 2013, 10:05:50 AM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

  There's definitely more effort from some of the players since Rondo's been out. There was also PP and Terry getting somewhat healthier. But not having set lineups, set rotations, set roles or consistent minutes for players will have a negative effect on the team as well.

So we're back to the "more effort" myth.

  And the accompanying "if I don't see something everyone who does see it is wrong" rebuttal.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 24, 2013, 10:18:19 AM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

  There's definitely more effort from some of the players since Rondo's been out. There was also PP and Terry getting somewhat healthier. But not having set lineups, set rotations, set roles or consistent minutes for players will have a negative effect on the team as well.

So we're back to the "more effort" myth.

  And the accompanying "if I don't see something everyone who does see it is wrong" rebuttal.

And I've kept asking the questions, keep pointing to different facets that disprove the assessment, and there's yet to be anything that resembles a proper counter to those points.

More than anything we've been seeing a phenomenon that was already happening within the 2nd unit, particularly since January began, well before Rondo went down.

The only player that is noticeably playing harder is Bass, but I don't think that has much to do with Rondo. A case can be made for Green, yet that proposes we ignore that vast improvement we were already noticing in January before Rondo went down compared to the earlier portions of the season, and it suggest we ignore the overall defensive effort that has been in place for most of the year.

Who exactly is playing with more effort?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on February 24, 2013, 10:47:06 AM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

While I kinda appreciate the whole spiritual commitment vibe, I think it's the fact that these guys are given more freedom to do what they can offensively with the ball in their hands. This being the better thing for their confidence than them running to spots on the floor and maybe having a 10% chance of getting the ball passed to them.

The increased confidence in each other on offense is leading to better commitment on defense. This new celtics incarnation is a demon at forcing turnovers.

 The claims that Rondo doesn't pass the ball are absolutely hilarious. And, unsurprisingly, we force more turnovers when Rondo was playing than we have since he's been out.

At what point have I claimed that rondo doesnt pass the ball? He is a great passer, especially when he facilitates KG and Pierce. However, Green, Courtney Lee, and Jason Terry are touching the ball more and allowed to create more now that rondo is out. This is of great benefit to them. You only have to open your eyes to see it.

  For all the talk about Terry's role changing without Rondo he's still taking a ton of spot up shots, he's just hitting them at a better clip than he was in Dec/Jan. As for Green, he'd probably played more minutes with Rondo on the bench than with Rondo in the game before Rondo was injured, I'd wonder whether your eyes saw Green playing like he's been recently when Rondo wasn't playing.

I'd like to see a transition efficiency/overall numbers comparison between the rondo celtics and non-rondo celtics aswell. Was having him at the point actually increasing their transition efficiency?

  We seem to be more efficient now but fewer fast break points. Considering Doc's comments about trying to run more without Rondo (and right after Rondo was injured someone posted an interview where Terry said the wings were going to try and get up the court faster in transition) it's not all that surprising.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: tonyto3690 on February 24, 2013, 11:50:04 AM
Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA.  Heck, the guy had to relearn how to walk roughly a year ago and he's been dunking on NBA players.

-Three point range
-Elite athleticism
-Great length
-Elite defense
-Moderate ball handling
-Moderate court vision
-Moderate passing
-Great finisher


I really don't see how people can think he WONT be a top 5 SF.  It's not like there are a ton of people you can put as locks.  Melo, Lebron, Durant and then a whole lot of middle tier guys like George, Gay, Deng.   Green certainly as the ability and is arguably already pretty close and just needs more minutes.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on February 24, 2013, 01:53:05 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

what?
are you serious?

this is precisely why I don't bring this up in arguments regarding JG. athletes are not humans to some of us and are just to recover like the aliens they are.

Jeff first and foremost went through a surgery that stopped his heart for 5 hours. Please think about that. Please think about the condition you think you'd be in if you were dead for 5 hours. lol...wow

he had VERY little summer. so while people are exercising, conditioning and stuff, Jeff Green is re-learning how to hold a ball, bro. His doctors STILL don't want him playing. They said its going to take him 2 full years to recover. after 1 year he's playing in the NBa at a very high level...where he's averaging 22 and 5 in his last 3 games.

I'm not sure I understand this line of thinking. While guys get to have several years in the NBA with little no injuries, this guy misses a year and you want him to come back like nothing happened.

This is why I don't give AB a hard time and I won't give RR or Barbosa a hard time when they return to play. smh

wow
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wayupnorth on February 24, 2013, 01:57:43 PM
I think they are already getting his spot ready in the hall of fame, right next to Terrence Williams and Jordan Crawford.

Hey Vinnie, you have spent a good part of your life hammering him, a guy who had open heart surgery 13 months ago...and 3 days I think. Meanhwhile, he seems to be progressing. Lets assume he can do no right in you eyes for some reason. Do you have a reason for this degree of hatred? You have posted numerous sarcastic responses about his game today...as many as 5 or 6.

not to mention the blog post comments.
got to be a solid 45 including those

Vinnie isn't some college kid who think he is immortal so its beyond my understanding that he seems to have NO concept this man had open heart surgery. I get a 22 year old punk from Boston College not understanding. But a grown man with kids? No, I don't get it

What does his surgery have to do with any of this? Until the last few weeks, his play in Boston has mirrored his play for his entire career, inconsistent and passive.  Give it a rest with the lecture. My commentary has nothing to do with his surgery.  It is a great thing that they found his life  threatening condition and he is able to play again and liv a full life. Get off your high horse.

You have no idea why his surgery matters??

Vinnie, if you are ever faced with what he was, I guess you will find out. But hey, maybe you'll be lucky.
Can't believe I am siding with vinnie here, but what the heck does his surgery have to do with anything except that it is now a feel good story?

He was fully recovered from the surgery months and months ago. I am glad they detected his ailment and made the correction before, God forbid, anything tragic happened. But they caught it and corrected it and life goes on.

I think the last thing anyone who is put into a life threatening situation wants is for people to make excuses for them based on their experience or illness. Jeff Green, a professional athlete, would be even less likely to do such a thing.

Green has played, up until mid January or so, his usual, inconsistent, uninspired, passive, mediocre brand of basketball for the Celtics. In late January, he started playing consistent, aggressive, inspired ball playing to his strengths and playing inspired defense. Last night was just a continuation of that very good streak.

And I think his heart surgery was responsible for none of his previous problems and has nothing to do with his sudden resurgence.

what?
are you serious?

this is precisely why I don't bring this up in arguments regarding JG. athletes are not humans to some of us and are just to recover like the aliens they are.

Jeff first and foremost went through a surgery that stopped his heart for 5 hours. Please think about that. Please think about the condition you think you'd be in if you were dead for 5 hours. lol...wow

he had VERY little summer. so while people are exercising, conditioning and stuff, Jeff Green is re-learning how to hold a ball, bro. His doctors STILL don't want him playing. They said its going to take him 2 full years to recover. after 1 year he's playing in the NBa at a very high level...where he's averaging 22 and 5 in his last 3 games.

I'm not sure I understand this line of thinking. While guys get to have several years in the NBA with little no injuries, this guy misses a year and you want him to come back like nothing happened.

This is why I don't give AB a hard time and I won't give RR or Barbosa a hard time when they return to play. smh

wow

TP
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on February 24, 2013, 02:03:48 PM
2 more points

1. The reason you don't think JG will be a top 5 SF right now is because he's not even asked to be that right now. The diff is LBJ, PG, Melo are being asked to be #1 on their team. JG is asked to be...I'm not even sure anyone knows what number he's asked to be, but right now he's been #3 (#4 after Rondo) on this team. I'm hoping that will change as the season and next year progresses.

Does he have the skillset to be top 5? I absolutely think so. Why do we marvel at players like LBJ and PG and Gay and whomever? Because they make it look EASY. Did JG NOT make his 31 points look easy? on 14 shots? Wow. I've seen LBJ score 35 on 35 shots. Same for Melo. AND MELO BARELY PLAYS DEFENSE!!

Which one of the top 5 and rising play defense like JG?

2. I'm more than hopeful that guys like Nick and Vinnie hold Rondo to these amazingly high standards when he returns from knee surgery. We can all pretty much guarantee that Rondo is going to come back early/earlier than he should. And when he's not as explosive, has a bunch of TO's, I really hope there are no 'excuses' such as a brand spanking new (fake) ACL.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 24, 2013, 02:05:58 PM
Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA.  Heck, the guy had to relearn how to walk roughly a year ago and he's been dunking on NBA players.

-Three point range
-Elite athleticism
-Great length
-Elite defense
-Moderate ball handling
-Moderate court vision
-Moderate passing
-Great finisher


I really don't see how people can think he WONT be a top 5 SF.  It's not like there are a ton of people you can put as locks.  Melo, Lebron, Durant and then a whole lot of middle tier guys like George, Gay, Deng.   Green certainly as the ability and is arguably already pretty close and just needs more minutes.

TP, but disagree on Elite Defender, he's not THAT good.

2 more points

1. The reason you don't think JG will be a top 5 SF right now is because he's not even asked to be that right now. The diff is LBJ, PG, Melo are being asked to be #1 on their team. JG is asked to be...I'm not even sure anyone knows what number he's asked to be, but right now he's been #3 (#4 after Rondo) on this team. I'm hoping that will change as the season and next year progresses.

Does he have the skillset to be top 5? I absolutely think so. Why do we marvel at players like LBJ and PG and Gay and whomever? Because they make it look EASY. Did JG NOT make his 31 points look easy? on 14 shots? Wow. I've seen LBJ score 35 on 35 shots. Same for Melo. AND MELO BARELY PLAYS DEFENSE!!

Which one of the top 5 and rising play defense like JG?

2. I'm more than hopeful that guys like Nick and Vinnie hold Rondo to these amazingly high standards when he returns from knee surgery. We can all pretty much guarantee that Rondo is going to come back early/earlier than he should. And when he's not as explosive, has a bunch of TO's, I really hope there are no 'excuses' such as a brand spanking new (fake) ACL.



Hence why I said in  two years. That will be his chance to come out. Hopefully, Pierce is done or is coming off the bench by then.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 24, 2013, 02:11:31 PM
Basically, I'm saying Green started off with great play in his OKC days. When they saw Durant was better, they traded him to us. But, Poerce is still here and one of the best SFs ever. green  has always been stuck behind a better SF which hurts him.

My argument is that once he comes out as a first, second option, he'll have way better stats and stuff. I can see a 21/5/2/1 guy who is worth nine million. He's definitely below the LB/Durant level and will never reach it. At his best, I can see a Carmelo (but that's not to be expected). At reasonable expectation levels, I see him being a little better or around Batum and George's level. An Al-Star hopefully once or twice.

I don't think this is too absurd
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 24, 2013, 02:17:18 PM
2 more points

1. The reason you don't think JG will be a top 5 SF right now is because he's not even asked to be that right now. The diff is LBJ, PG, Melo are being asked to be #1 on their team. JG is asked to be...I'm not even sure anyone knows what number he's asked to be, but right now he's been #3 (#4 after Rondo) on this team. I'm hoping that will change as the season and next year progresses.

Does he have the skillset to be top 5? I absolutely think so. Why do we marvel at players like LBJ and PG and Gay and whomever? Because they make it look EASY. Did JG NOT make his 31 points look easy? on 14 shots? Wow. I've seen LBJ score 35 on 35 shots. Same for Melo. AND MELO BARELY PLAYS DEFENSE!!

Which one of the top 5 and rising play defense like JG?

2. I'm more than hopeful that guys like Nick and Vinnie hold Rondo to these amazingly high standards when he returns from knee surgery. We can all pretty much guarantee that Rondo is going to come back early/earlier than he should. And when he's not as explosive, has a bunch of TO's, I really hope there are no 'excuses' such as a brand spanking new (fake) ACL.

Hahaha, here we go:

You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Green dropped 31 on the freaking Phoenix Suns.  That ain't special, bud.  Was it impressive?  Sure it was.  I'm glad Jeff is being aggressive, but you can't say that that game means he's gonna be a star.  That's ridiculous.

Who cares if Melo doesn't play defense?  He's still unstoppable on offense.  Jeff isn't, and he also isn't as good a defender as LeBron or George.  Jeff plays good defense, but it's nowhere near LeBron or George.

I'll hold Rondo to a high standard, and you wanna know why?  Because he should be healthy.  For all we know, Jeff came back too early.  Maybe he should've come back in January.

Look at Dwight Howard.  You can't tell me he came back ON TIME.  He looked really bad to start the season.  Now, he's playing better.

Derrick Rose probably isnt playing this season because he's not healthy.  That's a good decision by the Bulls.  It helps them long term.

I expect Rondo to come back healthy.  If he's not ready, keep him off the floor.  Next year is probably a wash, anyway.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 24, 2013, 02:20:49 PM
Quote
You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

That awkward moment when you only count four.

And George and Gay aren't going to be guaranteed better. The only two guaranteed are LeBron and KD.
Green is on the level of George, Batum, and MAYBE Gay.
So apart from LBJ, KD, and Melo, it's George, Green, Batum, Gay.

Is he top two out of those four? We can only hope. But I think he will be.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on February 24, 2013, 02:25:35 PM
2 more points

1. The reason you don't think JG will be a top 5 SF right now is because he's not even asked to be that right now. The diff is LBJ, PG, Melo are being asked to be #1 on their team. JG is asked to be...I'm not even sure anyone knows what number he's asked to be, but right now he's been #3 (#4 after Rondo) on this team. I'm hoping that will change as the season and next year progresses.

Does he have the skillset to be top 5? I absolutely think so. Why do we marvel at players like LBJ and PG and Gay and whomever? Because they make it look EASY. Did JG NOT make his 31 points look easy? on 14 shots? Wow. I've seen LBJ score 35 on 35 shots. Same for Melo. AND MELO BARELY PLAYS DEFENSE!!

Which one of the top 5 and rising play defense like JG?

2. I'm more than hopeful that guys like Nick and Vinnie hold Rondo to these amazingly high standards when he returns from knee surgery. We can all pretty much guarantee that Rondo is going to come back early/earlier than he should. And when he's not as explosive, has a bunch of TO's, I really hope there are no 'excuses' such as a brand spanking new (fake) ACL.

Hahaha, here we go:

You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Green dropped 31 on the freaking Phoenix Suns.  That ain't special, bud.  Was it impressive?  Sure it was.  I'm glad Jeff is being aggressive, but you can't say that that game means he's gonna be a star.  That's ridiculous.

Who cares if Melo doesn't play defense?  He's still unstoppable on offense.  Jeff isn't, and he also isn't as good a defender as LeBron or George.  Jeff plays good defense, but it's nowhere near LeBron or George.

I'll hold Rondo to a high standard, and you wanna know why?  Because he should be healthy.  For all we know, Jeff came back too early.  Maybe he should've come back in January.

Look at Dwight Howard.  You can't tell me he came back ON TIME.  He looked really bad to start the season.  Now, he's playing better.

Derrick Rose probably isnt playing this season because he's not healthy.  That's a good decision by the Bulls.  It helps them long term.

I expect Rondo to come back healthy.  If he's not ready, keep him off the floor.  Next year is probably a wash, anyway.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

31 points against an NBA team. When JG has his games, who has stopped him? Who can stop him? What are you talking about...you think Jeff is stoppable? Mainly when he's double teamed, but I've not seen a ton of individual plays/players stop a determined Jeff.

Do I think he's ready now? no. and I said that...so we've got that. and I've also said that if Jeff was asked to be #1 on the team, I think we'd see an even HIGHER level of play from him.

I see little things that Jeff needs to work on. Go left. finish better. get a better handle. Things that have seemed to improve over the course of the season. But he's got a wonderful current skill set.

PG was shown confidence by his coach. and he just kinda came out of no where. and became the guy. I think the same can happen with JG.

I'm not a Melo fan. So you can take me out of that argument. He's a shooter. I don't see him being extremely efficient. I don't see him as a great defender. So when I'm talking great SFs, I see (now) KD and LBJ.

And don't we still talk about KD's aggressiveness? But JG will never be top because...?
right.

Jeff has the skills to be a star. No one thought PG could be a star either until he was ASKED TO DO IT!!!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on February 24, 2013, 02:27:41 PM
I barely like Rudy Gay.
But again...when you're asked to be #1...
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 24, 2013, 02:32:55 PM
Quote
You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

That awkward moment when you only count four.

And George and Gay aren't going to be guaranteed better. The only two guaranteed are LeBron and KD.
Green is on the level of George, Batum, and MAYBE Gay.
So apart from LBJ, KD, and Melo, it's George, Green, Batum, Gay.

Is he top two out of those four? We can only hope. But I think he will be.

That awkward moment when you don't have any answers to my argument and try to nitpick.

You can add KD to that list.  Gay is going to be better than Green and so is George.

Gay and George are FAR better than Green right now.

Batum and Green are probably on the same level.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Celtics18 on February 24, 2013, 02:34:55 PM
I'm trying to contain my giddiness over the way Jeff Green's been playing lately.  Last night's performance was stunning, but it's not just last night, Jeff's been playing really well for awhile now.

I don't know if he'll ever be a top five small forward, but one thing that gives me hope is that he's never actually had the opportunity to be a starting small forward in this league.

I think it's possible that once he does get that opportunity, he could be a top five player at his position.  He sure is talented. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 24, 2013, 02:38:50 PM
Quote
You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

That awkward moment when you only count four.

And George and Gay aren't going to be guaranteed better. The only two guaranteed are LeBron and KD.
Green is on the level of George, Batum, and MAYBE Gay.
So apart from LBJ, KD, and Melo, it's George, Green, Batum, Gay.

Is he top two out of those four? We can only hope. But I think he will be.

That awkward moment when you don't have any answers to my argument and try to nitpick.

You can add KD to that list.  Gay is going to be better than Green and so is George.

Gay and George are FAR better than Green right now.

Batum and Green are probably on the same level.

I'm not nitpicking. You pointed out four players better than him, which means Green could be the fifth.

Gay and George are not far better tha Green. Compare George's third year stats to those of Green's. see?

If anything, I would definitely take Batum over Gay too. I think you're lacking knowledge in how good Gay, Batum, George are.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 24, 2013, 02:39:51 PM
I'm trying to contain my giddiness over the way Jeff Green's been playing lately.  Last night's performance was stunning, but it's not just last night, Jeff's been playing really well for awhile now.

I don't know if he'll ever be a top five small forward, but one thing that gives me hope is that he's never actually had the opportunity to be a starting small forward in this league.

I think it's possible that once he does get that opportunity, he could be a top five player at his position.  He sure is talented.

Has been my stance forever. He always had to play behind PP and KD so we haven't seen what he truly has as a starting SF in this point in his career. Yesterday was just his first start.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 24, 2013, 02:41:12 PM
2 more points

1. The reason you don't think JG will be a top 5 SF right now is because he's not even asked to be that right now. The diff is LBJ, PG, Melo are being asked to be #1 on their team. JG is asked to be...I'm not even sure anyone knows what number he's asked to be, but right now he's been #3 (#4 after Rondo) on this team. I'm hoping that will change as the season and next year progresses.

Does he have the skillset to be top 5? I absolutely think so. Why do we marvel at players like LBJ and PG and Gay and whomever? Because they make it look EASY. Did JG NOT make his 31 points look easy? on 14 shots? Wow. I've seen LBJ score 35 on 35 shots. Same for Melo. AND MELO BARELY PLAYS DEFENSE!!

Which one of the top 5 and rising play defense like JG?

2. I'm more than hopeful that guys like Nick and Vinnie hold Rondo to these amazingly high standards when he returns from knee surgery. We can all pretty much guarantee that Rondo is going to come back early/earlier than he should. And when he's not as explosive, has a bunch of TO's, I really hope there are no 'excuses' such as a brand spanking new (fake) ACL.

Hahaha, here we go:

You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Green dropped 31 on the freaking Phoenix Suns.  That ain't special, bud.  Was it impressive?  Sure it was.  I'm glad Jeff is being aggressive, but you can't say that that game means he's gonna be a star.  That's ridiculous.

Who cares if Melo doesn't play defense?  He's still unstoppable on offense.  Jeff isn't, and he also isn't as good a defender as LeBron or George.  Jeff plays good defense, but it's nowhere near LeBron or George.

I'll hold Rondo to a high standard, and you wanna know why?  Because he should be healthy.  For all we know, Jeff came back too early.  Maybe he should've come back in January.

Look at Dwight Howard.  You can't tell me he came back ON TIME.  He looked really bad to start the season.  Now, he's playing better.

Derrick Rose probably isnt playing this season because he's not healthy.  That's a good decision by the Bulls.  It helps them long term.

I expect Rondo to come back healthy.  If he's not ready, keep him off the floor.  Next year is probably a wash, anyway.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

31 points against an NBA team. When JG has his games, who has stopped him? Who can stop him? What are you talking about...you think Jeff is stoppable? Mainly when he's double teamed, but I've not seen a ton of individual plays/players stop a determined Jeff.

Do I think he's ready now? no. and I said that...so we've got that. and I've also said that if Jeff was asked to be #1 on the team, I think we'd see an even HIGHER level of play from him.

I see little things that Jeff needs to work on. Go left. finish better. get a better handle. Things that have seemed to improve over the course of the season. But he's got a wonderful current skill set.

PG was shown confidence by his coach. and he just kinda came out of no where. and became the guy. I think the same can happen with JG.

I'm not a Melo fan. So you can take me out of that argument. He's a shooter. I don't see him being extremely efficient. I don't see him as a great defender. So when I'm talking great SFs, I see (now) KD and LBJ.

And don't we still talk about KD's aggressiveness? But JG will never be top because...?
right.

Jeff has the skills to be a star. No one thought PG could be a star either until he was ASKED TO DO IT!!!

The Suns suck.  Players drop 30 on teams all the time.  Wade dropped 33 on Philly last night.

Jeff is totally stoppable.  He has a predictable offensive game.  He's good at a lot of things, but the only thing he is elite at is inconsistency.  If you think Jeff is going to play very well EVERY game, then please tell me what you're smoking, because I really want it.

Jeff doesn't have the talent to be a #1 option.  He is best suited as a contender's fourth best player.

George wasn't shown confidence by his coach.  He HAD to step up, because nobody else on that Pacers team (except David West) has the capability to be THE man.  And everyone has thought George was going to be a star, so you don't know what you're talking about when you say he came out of nowhere.  I like to have arguments with people who know their stuff.

I'm not a Melo or Gay fan either.  That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that they're good players.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 24, 2013, 02:42:56 PM
2 more points

1. The reason you don't think JG will be a top 5 SF right now is because he's not even asked to be that right now. The diff is LBJ, PG, Melo are being asked to be #1 on their team. JG is asked to be...I'm not even sure anyone knows what number he's asked to be, but right now he's been #3 (#4 after Rondo) on this team. I'm hoping that will change as the season and next year progresses.

Does he have the skillset to be top 5? I absolutely think so. Why do we marvel at players like LBJ and PG and Gay and whomever? Because they make it look EASY. Did JG NOT make his 31 points look easy? on 14 shots? Wow. I've seen LBJ score 35 on 35 shots. Same for Melo. AND MELO BARELY PLAYS DEFENSE!!

Which one of the top 5 and rising play defense like JG?

2. I'm more than hopeful that guys like Nick and Vinnie hold Rondo to these amazingly high standards when he returns from knee surgery. We can all pretty much guarantee that Rondo is going to come back early/earlier than he should. And when he's not as explosive, has a bunch of TO's, I really hope there are no 'excuses' such as a brand spanking new (fake) ACL.

Hahaha, here we go:

You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Green dropped 31 on the freaking Phoenix Suns.  That ain't special, bud.  Was it impressive?  Sure it was.  I'm glad Jeff is being aggressive, but you can't say that that game means he's gonna be a star.  That's ridiculous.

Who cares if Melo doesn't play defense?  He's still unstoppable on offense.  Jeff isn't, and he also isn't as good a defender as LeBron or George.  Jeff plays good defense, but it's nowhere near LeBron or George.

I'll hold Rondo to a high standard, and you wanna know why?  Because he should be healthy.  For all we know, Jeff came back too early.  Maybe he should've come back in January.

Look at Dwight Howard.  You can't tell me he came back ON TIME.  He looked really bad to start the season.  Now, he's playing better.

Derrick Rose probably isnt playing this season because he's not healthy.  That's a good decision by the Bulls.  It helps them long term.

I expect Rondo to come back healthy.  If he's not ready, keep him off the floor.  Next year is probably a wash, anyway.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

31 points against an NBA team. When JG has his games, who has stopped him? Who can stop him? What are you talking about...you think Jeff is stoppable? Mainly when he's double teamed, but I've not seen a ton of individual plays/players stop a determined Jeff.

Do I think he's ready now? no. and I said that...so we've got that. and I've also said that if Jeff was asked to be #1 on the team, I think we'd see an even HIGHER level of play from him.

I see little things that Jeff needs to work on. Go left. finish better. get a better handle. Things that have seemed to improve over the course of the season. But he's got a wonderful current skill set.

PG was shown confidence by his coach. and he just kinda came out of no where. and became the guy. I think the same can happen with JG.

I'm not a Melo fan. So you can take me out of that argument. He's a shooter. I don't see him being extremely efficient. I don't see him as a great defender. So when I'm talking great SFs, I see (now) KD and LBJ.

And don't we still talk about KD's aggressiveness? But JG will never be top because...?
right.

Jeff has the skills to be a star. No one thought PG could be a star either until he was ASKED TO DO IT!!!

The Suns suck.  Players drop 30 on teams all the time.  Wade dropped 33 on Philly last night.

Jeff is totally stoppable.  He has a predictable offensive game.  He's good at a lot of things, but the only thing he is elite at is inconsistency.  If you think Jeff is going to play very well EVERY game, then please tell me what you're smoking, because I really want it.

Jeff doesn't have the talent to be a #1 option.  He is best suited as a contender's fourth best player.

George wasn't shown confidence by his coach.  He HAD to step up, because nobody else on that Pacers team (except David West) has the capability to be THE man.  And everyone has thought George was going to be a star, so you don't know what you're talking about when you say he came out of nowhere.  I like to have arguments with people who know their stuff.

I'm not a Melo or Gay fan either.  That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that they're good players.

He won't be a first option but second and third are possible too.
If anything, you guys blame him for being TOO consistent. He's playing at the same way he's been playing for seven years according To our stats. He's had what twenty fifteen point games? He's been playing very well since January.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 24, 2013, 02:43:00 PM
Quote
You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

That awkward moment when you only count four.

And George and Gay aren't going to be guaranteed better. The only two guaranteed are LeBron and KD.
Green is on the level of George, Batum, and MAYBE Gay.
So apart from LBJ, KD, and Melo, it's George, Green, Batum, Gay.

Is he top two out of those four? We can only hope. But I think he will be.

That awkward moment when you don't have any answers to my argument and try to nitpick.

You can add KD to that list.  Gay is going to be better than Green and so is George.

Gay and George are FAR better than Green right now.

Batum and Green are probably on the same level.

I'm not nitpicking. You pointed out four players better than him, which means Green could be the fifth.

Gay and George are not far better tha Green. Compare George's third year stats to those of Green's. see?

If anything, I would definitely take Batum over Gay too. I think you're lacking knowledge in how good Gay, Batum, George are.

Gay is an elite scorer.  George is an elite defender.  I said Batum and Green are on the same level.

I don't lack knowledge.  You just worship Green at an altar, and that's ok, just don't call me out on things that are false.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 24, 2013, 02:44:00 PM
2 more points

1. The reason you don't think JG will be a top 5 SF right now is because he's not even asked to be that right now. The diff is LBJ, PG, Melo are being asked to be #1 on their team. JG is asked to be...I'm not even sure anyone knows what number he's asked to be, but right now he's been #3 (#4 after Rondo) on this team. I'm hoping that will change as the season and next year progresses.

Does he have the skillset to be top 5? I absolutely think so. Why do we marvel at players like LBJ and PG and Gay and whomever? Because they make it look EASY. Did JG NOT make his 31 points look easy? on 14 shots? Wow. I've seen LBJ score 35 on 35 shots. Same for Melo. AND MELO BARELY PLAYS DEFENSE!!

Which one of the top 5 and rising play defense like JG?

2. I'm more than hopeful that guys like Nick and Vinnie hold Rondo to these amazingly high standards when he returns from knee surgery. We can all pretty much guarantee that Rondo is going to come back early/earlier than he should. And when he's not as explosive, has a bunch of TO's, I really hope there are no 'excuses' such as a brand spanking new (fake) ACL.

Hahaha, here we go:

You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Green dropped 31 on the freaking Phoenix Suns.  That ain't special, bud.  Was it impressive?  Sure it was.  I'm glad Jeff is being aggressive, but you can't say that that game means he's gonna be a star.  That's ridiculous.

Who cares if Melo doesn't play defense?  He's still unstoppable on offense.  Jeff isn't, and he also isn't as good a defender as LeBron or George.  Jeff plays good defense, but it's nowhere near LeBron or George.

I'll hold Rondo to a high standard, and you wanna know why?  Because he should be healthy.  For all we know, Jeff came back too early.  Maybe he should've come back in January.

Look at Dwight Howard.  You can't tell me he came back ON TIME.  He looked really bad to start the season.  Now, he's playing better.

Derrick Rose probably isnt playing this season because he's not healthy.  That's a good decision by the Bulls.  It helps them long term.

I expect Rondo to come back healthy.  If he's not ready, keep him off the floor.  Next year is probably a wash, anyway.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

31 points against an NBA team. When JG has his games, who has stopped him? Who can stop him? What are you talking about...you think Jeff is stoppable? Mainly when he's double teamed, but I've not seen a ton of individual plays/players stop a determined Jeff.

Do I think he's ready now? no. and I said that...so we've got that. and I've also said that if Jeff was asked to be #1 on the team, I think we'd see an even HIGHER level of play from him.

I see little things that Jeff needs to work on. Go left. finish better. get a better handle. Things that have seemed to improve over the course of the season. But he's got a wonderful current skill set.

PG was shown confidence by his coach. and he just kinda came out of no where. and became the guy. I think the same can happen with JG.

I'm not a Melo fan. So you can take me out of that argument. He's a shooter. I don't see him being extremely efficient. I don't see him as a great defender. So when I'm talking great SFs, I see (now) KD and LBJ.

And don't we still talk about KD's aggressiveness? But JG will never be top because...?
right.

Jeff has the skills to be a star. No one thought PG could be a star either until he was ASKED TO DO IT!!!

The Suns suck.  Players drop 30 on teams all the time.  Wade dropped 33 on Philly last night.

Jeff is totally stoppable.  He has a predictable offensive game.  He's good at a lot of things, but the only thing he is elite at is inconsistency.  If you think Jeff is going to play very well EVERY game, then please tell me what you're smoking, because I really want it.

Jeff doesn't have the talent to be a #1 option.  He is best suited as a contender's fourth best player.

George wasn't shown confidence by his coach.  He HAD to step up, because nobody else on that Pacers team (except David West) has the capability to be THE man.  And everyone has thought George was going to be a star, so you don't know what you're talking about when you say he came out of nowhere.  I like to have arguments with people who know their stuff.

I'm not a Melo or Gay fan either.  That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that they're good players.

He won't be a first option but second and third are possible too.
If anything, you guys blame him for being TOO consistent. He's playing at the same way he's been p,suing for seven years. He's had what twenty fifteen point games? He's been playing very well since January.

Yeah, he has been playing very well.  That doesn't mean he's going to be a top five SF in two years.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 24, 2013, 02:46:20 PM
Quote
You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

That awkward moment when you only count four.

And George and Gay aren't going to be guaranteed better. The only two guaranteed are LeBron and KD.
Green is on the level of George, Batum, and MAYBE Gay.
So apart from LBJ, KD, and Melo, it's George, Green, Batum, Gay.

Is he top two out of those four? We can only hope. But I think he will be.

That awkward moment when you don't have any answers to my argument and try to nitpick.

You can add KD to that list.  Gay is going to be better than Green and so is George.

Gay and George are FAR better than Green right now.

Batum and Green are probably on the same level.

I'm not nitpicking. You pointed out four players better than him, which means Green could be the fifth.

Gay and George are not far better tha Green. Compare George's third year stats to those of Green's. see?

If anything, I would definitely take Batum over Gay too. I think you're lacking knowledge in how good Gay, Batum, George are.

Gay is an elite scorer.  George is an elite defender.  I said Batum and Green are on the same level.

I don't lack knowledge.  You just worship Green at an altar, and that's ok, just don't call me out on things that are false.

I will not.

Batum is better than Gay in  terms of all around game and efficiency.
George is not known for elite defense.
Gay is just a not-so-good Melo on a contract ten times worse than that of Green's. a great player but never an All-Star.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Celtics18 on February 24, 2013, 02:53:01 PM
2 more points

1. The reason you don't think JG will be a top 5 SF right now is because he's not even asked to be that right now. The diff is LBJ, PG, Melo are being asked to be #1 on their team. JG is asked to be...I'm not even sure anyone knows what number he's asked to be, but right now he's been #3 (#4 after Rondo) on this team. I'm hoping that will change as the season and next year progresses.

Does he have the skillset to be top 5? I absolutely think so. Why do we marvel at players like LBJ and PG and Gay and whomever? Because they make it look EASY. Did JG NOT make his 31 points look easy? on 14 shots? Wow. I've seen LBJ score 35 on 35 shots. Same for Melo. AND MELO BARELY PLAYS DEFENSE!!

Which one of the top 5 and rising play defense like JG?

2. I'm more than hopeful that guys like Nick and Vinnie hold Rondo to these amazingly high standards when he returns from knee surgery. We can all pretty much guarantee that Rondo is going to come back early/earlier than he should. And when he's not as explosive, has a bunch of TO's, I really hope there are no 'excuses' such as a brand spanking new (fake) ACL.

Hahaha, here we go:

You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Green dropped 31 on the freaking Phoenix Suns.  That ain't special, bud.  Was it impressive?  Sure it was.  I'm glad Jeff is being aggressive, but you can't say that that game means he's gonna be a star.  That's ridiculous.

Who cares if Melo doesn't play defense?  He's still unstoppable on offense.  Jeff isn't, and he also isn't as good a defender as LeBron or George.  Jeff plays good defense, but it's nowhere near LeBron or George.

I'll hold Rondo to a high standard, and you wanna know why?  Because he should be healthy.  For all we know, Jeff came back too early.  Maybe he should've come back in January.

Look at Dwight Howard.  You can't tell me he came back ON TIME.  He looked really bad to start the season.  Now, he's playing better.

Derrick Rose probably isnt playing this season because he's not healthy.  That's a good decision by the Bulls.  It helps them long term.

I expect Rondo to come back healthy.  If he's not ready, keep him off the floor.  Next year is probably a wash, anyway.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

31 points against an NBA team. When JG has his games, who has stopped him? Who can stop him? What are you talking about...you think Jeff is stoppable? Mainly when he's double teamed, but I've not seen a ton of individual plays/players stop a determined Jeff.

Do I think he's ready now? no. and I said that...so we've got that. and I've also said that if Jeff was asked to be #1 on the team, I think we'd see an even HIGHER level of play from him.

I see little things that Jeff needs to work on. Go left. finish better. get a better handle. Things that have seemed to improve over the course of the season. But he's got a wonderful current skill set.

PG was shown confidence by his coach. and he just kinda came out of no where. and became the guy. I think the same can happen with JG.

I'm not a Melo fan. So you can take me out of that argument. He's a shooter. I don't see him being extremely efficient. I don't see him as a great defender. So when I'm talking great SFs, I see (now) KD and LBJ.

And don't we still talk about KD's aggressiveness? But JG will never be top because...?
right.

Jeff has the skills to be a star. No one thought PG could be a star either until he was ASKED TO DO IT!!!

The Suns suck.  Players drop 30 on teams all the time.  Wade dropped 33 on Philly last night.

Jeff is totally stoppable.  He has a predictable offensive game.  He's good at a lot of things, but the only thing he is elite at is inconsistency.  If you think Jeff is going to play very well EVERY game, then please tell me what you're smoking, because I really want it.

Jeff doesn't have the talent to be a #1 option.  He is best suited as a contender's fourth best player.

George wasn't shown confidence by his coach.  He HAD to step up, because nobody else on that Pacers team (except David West) has the capability to be THE man.  And everyone has thought George was going to be a star, so you don't know what you're talking about when you say he came out of nowhere.  I like to have arguments with people who know their stuff.

I'm not a Melo or Gay fan either.  That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that they're good players.

He won't be a first option but second and third are possible too.
If anything, you guys blame him for being TOO consistent. He's playing at the same way he's been p,suing for seven years. He's had what twenty fifteen point games? He's been playing very well since January.

Yeah, he has been playing very well.  That doesn't mean he's going to be a top five SF in two years.

I'm not going to say that it's a given, but I agree with CelticConcourse that he has a very good shot at being a top five small forward in two years.  Kevin Durant, Lebron James, and Carmelo Anthony are superstars, and they presumably still will be two years from now, but after that guys like George, Gay, Batum, maybe Galinari, and a small sprinkling of other are very, very good players.  I don't think any of them are superstar material.  Jeff Green has the talent level to be considered among that group once he becomes a full time starter.  I don't think that's being overly unrealistic.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 24, 2013, 02:53:53 PM
Quote
You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

That awkward moment when you only count four.

And George and Gay aren't going to be guaranteed better. The only two guaranteed are LeBron and KD.
Green is on the level of George, Batum, and MAYBE Gay.
So apart from LBJ, KD, and Melo, it's George, Green, Batum, Gay.

Is he top two out of those four? We can only hope. But I think he will be.

That awkward moment when you don't have any answers to my argument and try to nitpick.

You can add KD to that list.  Gay is going to be better than Green and so is George.

Gay and George are FAR better than Green right now.

Batum and Green are probably on the same level.

I'm not nitpicking. You pointed out four players better than him, which means Green could be the fifth.

Gay and George are not far better tha Green. Compare George's third year stats to those of Green's. see?

If anything, I would definitely take Batum over Gay too. I think you're lacking knowledge in how good Gay, Batum, George are.

Gay is an elite scorer.  George is an elite defender.  I said Batum and Green are on the same level.

I don't lack knowledge.  You just worship Green at an altar, and that's ok, just don't call me out on things that are false.

I will not.

Batum is better than Gay in  terms of all around game and efficiency.
George is not known for elite defense.
Gay is just a not-so-good Melo on a contract ten times worse than that of Green's. a great player but never an All-Star.

I take Gay over Batum every day of the week and twice on Sunday.  That's just something we cannot agree on.

What the hell is George known for?  Athleticism?  He's known for being a superb defender and can hit the three at a decent clip (just not in the three point contest).

I'll give you that Melo is better than Gay, and that his contract is bad, but that doesn't mean he's a bad player.  To put it in perspective, Batum is earning 11 million this year, and I'd argue he's overrated and is only the third best player on his team.  At least we know Gay is Toronto's best player.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 24, 2013, 02:56:31 PM
2 more points

1. The reason you don't think JG will be a top 5 SF right now is because he's not even asked to be that right now. The diff is LBJ, PG, Melo are being asked to be #1 on their team. JG is asked to be...I'm not even sure anyone knows what number he's asked to be, but right now he's been #3 (#4 after Rondo) on this team. I'm hoping that will change as the season and next year progresses.

Does he have the skillset to be top 5? I absolutely think so. Why do we marvel at players like LBJ and PG and Gay and whomever? Because they make it look EASY. Did JG NOT make his 31 points look easy? on 14 shots? Wow. I've seen LBJ score 35 on 35 shots. Same for Melo. AND MELO BARELY PLAYS DEFENSE!!

Which one of the top 5 and rising play defense like JG?

2. I'm more than hopeful that guys like Nick and Vinnie hold Rondo to these amazingly high standards when he returns from knee surgery. We can all pretty much guarantee that Rondo is going to come back early/earlier than he should. And when he's not as explosive, has a bunch of TO's, I really hope there are no 'excuses' such as a brand spanking new (fake) ACL.

Hahaha, here we go:

You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Green dropped 31 on the freaking Phoenix Suns.  That ain't special, bud.  Was it impressive?  Sure it was.  I'm glad Jeff is being aggressive, but you can't say that that game means he's gonna be a star.  That's ridiculous.

Who cares if Melo doesn't play defense?  He's still unstoppable on offense.  Jeff isn't, and he also isn't as good a defender as LeBron or George.  Jeff plays good defense, but it's nowhere near LeBron or George.

I'll hold Rondo to a high standard, and you wanna know why?  Because he should be healthy.  For all we know, Jeff came back too early.  Maybe he should've come back in January.

Look at Dwight Howard.  You can't tell me he came back ON TIME.  He looked really bad to start the season.  Now, he's playing better.

Derrick Rose probably isnt playing this season because he's not healthy.  That's a good decision by the Bulls.  It helps them long term.

I expect Rondo to come back healthy.  If he's not ready, keep him off the floor.  Next year is probably a wash, anyway.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

31 points against an NBA team. When JG has his games, who has stopped him? Who can stop him? What are you talking about...you think Jeff is stoppable? Mainly when he's double teamed, but I've not seen a ton of individual plays/players stop a determined Jeff.

Do I think he's ready now? no. and I said that...so we've got that. and I've also said that if Jeff was asked to be #1 on the team, I think we'd see an even HIGHER level of play from him.

I see little things that Jeff needs to work on. Go left. finish better. get a better handle. Things that have seemed to improve over the course of the season. But he's got a wonderful current skill set.

PG was shown confidence by his coach. and he just kinda came out of no where. and became the guy. I think the same can happen with JG.

I'm not a Melo fan. So you can take me out of that argument. He's a shooter. I don't see him being extremely efficient. I don't see him as a great defender. So when I'm talking great SFs, I see (now) KD and LBJ.

And don't we still talk about KD's aggressiveness? But JG will never be top because...?
right.

Jeff has the skills to be a star. No one thought PG could be a star either until he was ASKED TO DO IT!!!

The Suns suck.  Players drop 30 on teams all the time.  Wade dropped 33 on Philly last night.

Jeff is totally stoppable.  He has a predictable offensive game.  He's good at a lot of things, but the only thing he is elite at is inconsistency.  If you think Jeff is going to play very well EVERY game, then please tell me what you're smoking, because I really want it.

Jeff doesn't have the talent to be a #1 option.  He is best suited as a contender's fourth best player.

George wasn't shown confidence by his coach.  He HAD to step up, because nobody else on that Pacers team (except David West) has the capability to be THE man.  And everyone has thought George was going to be a star, so you don't know what you're talking about when you say he came out of nowhere.  I like to have arguments with people who know their stuff.

I'm not a Melo or Gay fan either.  That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that they're good players.

He won't be a first option but second and third are possible too.
If anything, you guys blame him for being TOO consistent. He's playing at the same way he's been p,suing for seven years. He's had what twenty fifteen point games? He's been playing very well since January.

Yeah, he has been playing very well.  That doesn't mean he's going to be a top five SF in two years.

I'm not going to say that it's a given, but I agree with CelticConcourse that he has a very good shot at being a top five small forward in two years.  Kevin Durant, Lebron James, and Carmelo Anthony are superstars, and they presumably still will be two years from now, but after that guys like George, Gay, Batum, maybe Galinari, and a small sprinkling of other are very, very good players.  I don't think any of them are superstar material.  Jeff Green has the talent level to be considered among that group once he becomes a full time starter.  I don't think that's being overly unrealistic.

I can sort of agree with this.  I'm not saying Jeff will be not be good, I just don't think he will be considered in the same category as a LeBron, or a Durant, or a Carmelo.  I'm a firm believer Paul George will be better than Green in two years, possibly Gay, too.

Green will definitely be better than Batum and Gallinari in two years.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on February 24, 2013, 02:59:13 PM
Quote
You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

That awkward moment when you only count four.

And George and Gay aren't going to be guaranteed better. The only two guaranteed are LeBron and KD.
Green is on the level of George, Batum, and MAYBE Gay.
So apart from LBJ, KD, and Melo, it's George, Green, Batum, Gay.

Is he top two out of those four? We can only hope. But I think he will be.

That awkward moment when you don't have any answers to my argument and try to nitpick.

You can add KD to that list.  Gay is going to be better than Green and so is George.

Gay and George are FAR better than Green right now.

Batum and Green are probably on the same level.

I'm not nitpicking. You pointed out four players better than him, which means Green could be the fifth.

Gay and George are not far better tha Green. Compare George's third year stats to those of Green's. see?

If anything, I would definitely take Batum over Gay too. I think you're lacking knowledge in how good Gay, Batum, George are.

Gay is an elite scorer.  George is an elite defender.  I said Batum and Green are on the same level.

I don't lack knowledge.  You just worship Green at an altar, and that's ok, just don't call me out on things that are false.

I will not.

Batum is better than Gay in  terms of all around game and efficiency.
George is not known for elite defense.
Gay is just a not-so-good Melo on a contract ten times worse than that of Green's. a great player but never an All-Star.

I take Gay over Batum every day of the week and twice on Sunday.  That's just something we cannot agree on.

What the hell is George known for?  Athleticism?  He's known for being a superb defender and can hit the three at a decent clip (just not in the three point contest).

I'll give you that Melo is better than Gay, and that his contract is bad, but that doesn't mean he's a bad player.  To put it in perspective, Batum is earning 11 million this year, and I'd argue he's overrated and is only the third best player on his team.  At least we know Gay is Toronto's best player.

OK, we will not agre on Batum, but he's been getting triple doubles and 5x5s like no other SF.
Gay is inefficient and in  Toronto, I don't see him or DeRozan or Ross ever becoming great. Too many SFs. In two years, I still see a high volume shooter who gets lots of points.

George, I admit I am not knowledgable on. But I think he is better than Green, as of today. In two years, it's up for grabs.

But for now, we can have reasonable hopes. Nothing shows Green can't improve, and this season is only helping him improve. He's cheaper tha Batum and Gay, and has good upside. I'm glad we locked him up.

2 more points

1. The reason you don't think JG will be a top 5 SF right now is because he's not even asked to be that right now. The diff is LBJ, PG, Melo are being asked to be #1 on their team. JG is asked to be...I'm not even sure anyone knows what number he's asked to be, but right now he's been #3 (#4 after Rondo) on this team. I'm hoping that will change as the season and next year progresses.

Does he have the skillset to be top 5? I absolutely think so. Why do we marvel at players like LBJ and PG and Gay and whomever? Because they make it look EASY. Did JG NOT make his 31 points look easy? on 14 shots? Wow. I've seen LBJ score 35 on 35 shots. Same for Melo. AND MELO BARELY PLAYS DEFENSE!!

Which one of the top 5 and rising play defense like JG?

2. I'm more than hopeful that guys like Nick and Vinnie hold Rondo to these amazingly high standards when he returns from knee surgery. We can all pretty much guarantee that Rondo is going to come back early/earlier than he should. And when he's not as explosive, has a bunch of TO's, I really hope there are no 'excuses' such as a brand spanking new (fake) ACL.

Hahaha, here we go:

You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Green dropped 31 on the freaking Phoenix Suns.  That ain't special, bud.  Was it impressive?  Sure it was.  I'm glad Jeff is being aggressive, but you can't say that that game means he's gonna be a star.  That's ridiculous.

Who cares if Melo doesn't play defense?  He's still unstoppable on offense.  Jeff isn't, and he also isn't as good a defender as LeBron or George.  Jeff plays good defense, but it's nowhere near LeBron or George.

I'll hold Rondo to a high standard, and you wanna know why?  Because he should be healthy.  For all we know, Jeff came back too early.  Maybe he should've come back in January.

Look at Dwight Howard.  You can't tell me he came back ON TIME.  He looked really bad to start the season.  Now, he's playing better.

Derrick Rose probably isnt playing this season because he's not healthy.  That's a good decision by the Bulls.  It helps them long term.

I expect Rondo to come back healthy.  If he's not ready, keep him off the floor.  Next year is probably a wash, anyway.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

31 points against an NBA team. When JG has his games, who has stopped him? Who can stop him? What are you talking about...you think Jeff is stoppable? Mainly when he's double teamed, but I've not seen a ton of individual plays/players stop a determined Jeff.

Do I think he's ready now? no. and I said that...so we've got that. and I've also said that if Jeff was asked to be #1 on the team, I think we'd see an even HIGHER level of play from him.

I see little things that Jeff needs to work on. Go left. finish better. get a better handle. Things that have seemed to improve over the course of the season. But he's got a wonderful current skill set.

PG was shown confidence by his coach. and he just kinda came out of no where. and became the guy. I think the same can happen with JG.

I'm not a Melo fan. So you can take me out of that argument. He's a shooter. I don't see him being extremely efficient. I don't see him as a great defender. So when I'm talking great SFs, I see (now) KD and LBJ.

And don't we still talk about KD's aggressiveness? But JG will never be top because...?
right.

Jeff has the skills to be a star. No one thought PG could be a star either until he was ASKED TO DO IT!!!

The Suns suck.  Players drop 30 on teams all the time.  Wade dropped 33 on Philly last night.

Jeff is totally stoppable.  He has a predictable offensive game.  He's good at a lot of things, but the only thing he is elite at is inconsistency.  If you think Jeff is going to play very well EVERY game, then please tell me what you're smoking, because I really want it.

Jeff doesn't have the talent to be a #1 option.  He is best suited as a contender's fourth best player.

George wasn't shown confidence by his coach.  He HAD to step up, because nobody else on that Pacers team (except David West) has the capability to be THE man.  And everyone has thought George was going to be a star, so you don't know what you're talking about when you say he came out of nowhere.  I like to have arguments with people who know their stuff.

I'm not a Melo or Gay fan either.  That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that they're good players.

He won't be a first option but second and third are possible too.
If anything, you guys blame him for being TOO consistent. He's playing at the same way he's been p,suing for seven years. He's had what twenty fifteen point games? He's been playing very well since January.

Yeah, he has been playing very well.  That doesn't mean he's going to be a top five SF in two years.

I'm not going to say that it's a given, but I agree with CelticConcourse that he has a very good shot at being a top five small forward in two years.  Kevin Durant, Lebron James, and Carmelo Anthony are superstars, and they presumably still will be two years from now, but after that guys like George, Gay, Batum, maybe Galinari, and a small sprinkling of other are very, very good players.  I don't think any of them are superstar material.  Jeff Green has the talent level to be considered among that group once he becomes a full time starter.  I don't think that's being overly unrealistic.

I can sort of agree with this.  I'm not saying Jeff will be not be good, I just don't think he will be considered in the same category as a LeBron, or a Durant, or a Carmelo.  I'm a firm believer Paul George will be better than Green in two years, possibly Gay, too.

Green will definitely be better than Batum and Gallinari in two years.

Consensus reached. Then. He's top 6 in your eyes, and my eyes too. Third is the crazy hope. Fourth is what we would really want. Fifth is what we can try to expect
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 24, 2013, 03:03:56 PM
Quote
You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

That awkward moment when you only count four.

And George and Gay aren't going to be guaranteed better. The only two guaranteed are LeBron and KD.
Green is on the level of George, Batum, and MAYBE Gay.
So apart from LBJ, KD, and Melo, it's George, Green, Batum, Gay.

Is he top two out of those four? We can only hope. But I think he will be.

That awkward moment when you don't have any answers to my argument and try to nitpick.

You can add KD to that list.  Gay is going to be better than Green and so is George.

Gay and George are FAR better than Green right now.

Batum and Green are probably on the same level.

I'm not nitpicking. You pointed out four players better than him, which means Green could be the fifth.

Gay and George are not far better tha Green. Compare George's third year stats to those of Green's. see?

If anything, I would definitely take Batum over Gay too. I think you're lacking knowledge in how good Gay, Batum, George are.

Gay is an elite scorer.  George is an elite defender.  I said Batum and Green are on the same level.

I don't lack knowledge.  You just worship Green at an altar, and that's ok, just don't call me out on things that are false.

I will not.

Batum is better than Gay in  terms of all around game and efficiency.
George is not known for elite defense.
Gay is just a not-so-good Melo on a contract ten times worse than that of Green's. a great player but never an All-Star.

I take Gay over Batum every day of the week and twice on Sunday.  That's just something we cannot agree on.

What the hell is George known for?  Athleticism?  He's known for being a superb defender and can hit the three at a decent clip (just not in the three point contest).

I'll give you that Melo is better than Gay, and that his contract is bad, but that doesn't mean he's a bad player.  To put it in perspective, Batum is earning 11 million this year, and I'd argue he's overrated and is only the third best player on his team.  At least we know Gay is Toronto's best player.

OK, we will not agre on Batum, but he's been getting triple doubles and 5x5s like no other SF.
Gay is inefficient and in  Toronto, I don't see him or DeRozan or Ross ever becoming great. Too many SFs. In two years, I still see a high volume shooter who gets lots of points.

George, I admit I am not knowledgable on. But I think he is better than Green, as of today. In two years, it's up for grabs.

But for now, we can have reasonable hopes. Nothing shows Green can't improve, and this season is only helping him improve. He's cheaper tha Batum and Gay, and has good upside. I'm glad we locked him up.

2 more points

1. The reason you don't think JG will be a top 5 SF right now is because he's not even asked to be that right now. The diff is LBJ, PG, Melo are being asked to be #1 on their team. JG is asked to be...I'm not even sure anyone knows what number he's asked to be, but right now he's been #3 (#4 after Rondo) on this team. I'm hoping that will change as the season and next year progresses.

Does he have the skillset to be top 5? I absolutely think so. Why do we marvel at players like LBJ and PG and Gay and whomever? Because they make it look EASY. Did JG NOT make his 31 points look easy? on 14 shots? Wow. I've seen LBJ score 35 on 35 shots. Same for Melo. AND MELO BARELY PLAYS DEFENSE!!

Which one of the top 5 and rising play defense like JG?

2. I'm more than hopeful that guys like Nick and Vinnie hold Rondo to these amazingly high standards when he returns from knee surgery. We can all pretty much guarantee that Rondo is going to come back early/earlier than he should. And when he's not as explosive, has a bunch of TO's, I really hope there are no 'excuses' such as a brand spanking new (fake) ACL.

Hahaha, here we go:

You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Green dropped 31 on the freaking Phoenix Suns.  That ain't special, bud.  Was it impressive?  Sure it was.  I'm glad Jeff is being aggressive, but you can't say that that game means he's gonna be a star.  That's ridiculous.

Who cares if Melo doesn't play defense?  He's still unstoppable on offense.  Jeff isn't, and he also isn't as good a defender as LeBron or George.  Jeff plays good defense, but it's nowhere near LeBron or George.

I'll hold Rondo to a high standard, and you wanna know why?  Because he should be healthy.  For all we know, Jeff came back too early.  Maybe he should've come back in January.

Look at Dwight Howard.  You can't tell me he came back ON TIME.  He looked really bad to start the season.  Now, he's playing better.

Derrick Rose probably isnt playing this season because he's not healthy.  That's a good decision by the Bulls.  It helps them long term.

I expect Rondo to come back healthy.  If he's not ready, keep him off the floor.  Next year is probably a wash, anyway.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

31 points against an NBA team. When JG has his games, who has stopped him? Who can stop him? What are you talking about...you think Jeff is stoppable? Mainly when he's double teamed, but I've not seen a ton of individual plays/players stop a determined Jeff.

Do I think he's ready now? no. and I said that...so we've got that. and I've also said that if Jeff was asked to be #1 on the team, I think we'd see an even HIGHER level of play from him.

I see little things that Jeff needs to work on. Go left. finish better. get a better handle. Things that have seemed to improve over the course of the season. But he's got a wonderful current skill set.

PG was shown confidence by his coach. and he just kinda came out of no where. and became the guy. I think the same can happen with JG.

I'm not a Melo fan. So you can take me out of that argument. He's a shooter. I don't see him being extremely efficient. I don't see him as a great defender. So when I'm talking great SFs, I see (now) KD and LBJ.

And don't we still talk about KD's aggressiveness? But JG will never be top because...?
right.

Jeff has the skills to be a star. No one thought PG could be a star either until he was ASKED TO DO IT!!!

The Suns suck.  Players drop 30 on teams all the time.  Wade dropped 33 on Philly last night.

Jeff is totally stoppable.  He has a predictable offensive game.  He's good at a lot of things, but the only thing he is elite at is inconsistency.  If you think Jeff is going to play very well EVERY game, then please tell me what you're smoking, because I really want it.

Jeff doesn't have the talent to be a #1 option.  He is best suited as a contender's fourth best player.

George wasn't shown confidence by his coach.  He HAD to step up, because nobody else on that Pacers team (except David West) has the capability to be THE man.  And everyone has thought George was going to be a star, so you don't know what you're talking about when you say he came out of nowhere.  I like to have arguments with people who know their stuff.

I'm not a Melo or Gay fan either.  That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that they're good players.

He won't be a first option but second and third are possible too.
If anything, you guys blame him for being TOO consistent. He's playing at the same way he's been p,suing for seven years. He's had what twenty fifteen point games? He's been playing very well since January.

Yeah, he has been playing very well.  That doesn't mean he's going to be a top five SF in two years.

I'm not going to say that it's a given, but I agree with CelticConcourse that he has a very good shot at being a top five small forward in two years.  Kevin Durant, Lebron James, and Carmelo Anthony are superstars, and they presumably still will be two years from now, but after that guys like George, Gay, Batum, maybe Galinari, and a small sprinkling of other are very, very good players.  I don't think any of them are superstar material.  Jeff Green has the talent level to be considered among that group once he becomes a full time starter.  I don't think that's being overly unrealistic.

I can sort of agree with this.  I'm not saying Jeff will be not be good, I just don't think he will be considered in the same category as a LeBron, or a Durant, or a Carmelo.  I'm a firm believer Paul George will be better than Green in two years, possibly Gay, too.

Green will definitely be better than Batum and Gallinari in two years.

Consensus reached. Then. He's top 6 in your eyes, and my eyes too. Third is the crazy hope. Fourth is what we would really want. Fifth is what we can try to expect

TP for the uber-epic argument, CC.  Glad we could reach an agreement.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on February 24, 2013, 03:07:02 PM
Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA.  Heck, the guy had to relearn how to walk roughly a year ago and he's been dunking on NBA players.

-Three point range
-Elite athleticism
-Great length
-Elite defense
-Moderate ball handling
-Moderate court vision
-Moderate passing
-Great finisher


I really don't see how people can think he WONT be a top 5 SF.  It's not like there are a ton of people you can put as locks.  Melo, Lebron, Durant and then a whole lot of middle tier guys like George, Gay, Deng.   Green certainly as the ability and is arguably already pretty close and just needs more minutes.

"Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA." Huh. Where did you get this alleged information?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on February 24, 2013, 03:37:25 PM
Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA.  Heck, the guy had to relearn how to walk roughly a year ago and he's been dunking on NBA players.

-Three point range
-Elite athleticism
-Great length
-Elite defense
-Moderate ball handling
-Moderate court vision
-Moderate passing
-Great finisher


I really don't see how people can think he WONT be a top 5 SF.  It's not like there are a ton of people you can put as locks.  Melo, Lebron, Durant and then a whole lot of middle tier guys like George, Gay, Deng.   Green certainly as the ability and is arguably already pretty close and just needs more minutes.

"Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA." Huh. Where did you get this alleged information?

one of the many specials. I never watched the ESPN
it could also be on one of the articles Jackie wrote
but the doctors said it's a 2 year recovery time and they don't see him being completely unaffected by it until 2 years after the surgery.

the option was there to not play another year. but of course, he wanted to play.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vinnie on February 24, 2013, 03:39:52 PM
Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA.  Heck, the guy had to relearn how to walk roughly a year ago and he's been dunking on NBA players.

-Three point range
-Elite athleticism
-Great length
-Elite defense
-Moderate ball handling
-Moderate court vision
-Moderate passing
-Great finisher


I really don't see how people can think he WONT be a top 5 SF.  It's not like there are a ton of people you can put as locks.  Melo, Lebron, Durant and then a whole lot of middle tier guys like George, Gay, Deng.   Green certainly as the ability and is arguably already pretty close and just needs more minutes.

"Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA." Huh. Where did you get this alleged information?

one of the many specials. I never watched the ESPN
it could also be on one of the articles Jackie wrote
but the doctors said it's a 2 year recovery time and they don't see him being completely unaffected by it until 2 years after the surgery.

the option was there to not play another year. but of course, he wanted to play.

Interesting. I would think that if there was any danger in him playing he would not be allowed to play. I have never seen or head this anywhere.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: celtsfan84 on February 24, 2013, 03:46:22 PM
Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA.  Heck, the guy had to relearn how to walk roughly a year ago and he's been dunking on NBA players.

-Three point range
-Elite athleticism
-Great length
-Elite defense
-Moderate ball handling
-Moderate court vision
-Moderate passing
-Great finisher


I really don't see how people can think he WONT be a top 5 SF.  It's not like there are a ton of people you can put as locks.  Melo, Lebron, Durant and then a whole lot of middle tier guys like George, Gay, Deng.   Green certainly as the ability and is arguably already pretty close and just needs more minutes.

"Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA." Huh. Where did you get this alleged information?

one of the many specials. I never watched the ESPN
it could also be on one of the articles Jackie wrote
but the doctors said it's a 2 year recovery time and they don't see him being completely unaffected by it until 2 years after the surgery.

the option was there to not play another year. but of course, he wanted to play.

Interesting. I would think that if there was any danger in him playing he would not be allowed to play. I have never seen or head this anywhere.

Quote
The Boston Celtics announced Saturday that forward Jeff Green will undergo heart surgery next month and will miss the entire 2011-12 season.

A routine physical administered after Green agreed to a one-year, $9 million contract with the Celtics last week detected an aortic aneurysm.

After consulting with leading cardiac specialists, the decision was made to completely repair Green's condition, and doctors indicated to him that he should be able to resume his basketball career during the 2012-13 season.

This is from ESPN's article after it was announced that Jeff Green was having heart surgery.

The NBA and the Boston Celtics wouldn't have Jeff Green on the floor if he were under some serious risk this season.  I don't mean to undersell the seriousness of heart surgery, but doctors expected Jeff Green to play this season.  That report you saw must have been about someone else.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on February 24, 2013, 03:48:02 PM
Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA.  Heck, the guy had to relearn how to walk roughly a year ago and he's been dunking on NBA players.

-Three point range
-Elite athleticism
-Great length
-Elite defense
-Moderate ball handling
-Moderate court vision
-Moderate passing
-Great finisher


I really don't see how people can think he WONT be a top 5 SF.  It's not like there are a ton of people you can put as locks.  Melo, Lebron, Durant and then a whole lot of middle tier guys like George, Gay, Deng.   Green certainly as the ability and is arguably already pretty close and just needs more minutes.

"Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA." Huh. Where did you get this alleged information?

one of the many specials. I never watched the ESPN
it could also be on one of the articles Jackie wrote
but the doctors said it's a 2 year recovery time and they don't see him being completely unaffected by it until 2 years after the surgery.

the option was there to not play another year. but of course, he wanted to play.

Interesting. I would think that if there was any danger in him playing he would not be allowed to play. I have never seen or head this anywhere.

yes. Jackies article

Quote
"It just didn't seem realistic that he'd be back," Falk said.

That was in January 2012. Two months later, Green was walking gingerly on a treadmill. By spring, he was working with a trainer Falk arranged for him. And when he was cleared in July for contact, he showed up at Georgetown's McDonough Gym to play pickup.

"He's a gym rat," Big John Thompson said. "Always has been. The thing that scared me the most once he started coming around again was how hard he was working.

"I pulled him aside and said, 'Are you all right? Should you be doing this?'"

Green's medical team told him it will be a full two years before he will completely recover. There will be tightness in his chest. There will be strange pains that will go unexplained. He will have days when he will be completely exhausted.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8949730/jeff-green-flourishing-boston-celtics-harness-energy
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on February 24, 2013, 03:54:14 PM
Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA.  Heck, the guy had to relearn how to walk roughly a year ago and he's been dunking on NBA players.

-Three point range
-Elite athleticism
-Great length
-Elite defense
-Moderate ball handling
-Moderate court vision
-Moderate passing
-Great finisher


I really don't see how people can think he WONT be a top 5 SF.  It's not like there are a ton of people you can put as locks.  Melo, Lebron, Durant and then a whole lot of middle tier guys like George, Gay, Deng.   Green certainly as the ability and is arguably already pretty close and just needs more minutes.

"Green's doctors told him he wouldn't even be able to play this year and it'd be another year before he could play in the NBA." Huh. Where did you get this alleged information?

one of the many specials. I never watched the ESPN
it could also be on one of the articles Jackie wrote
but the doctors said it's a 2 year recovery time and they don't see him being completely unaffected by it until 2 years after the surgery.

the option was there to not play another year. but of course, he wanted to play.

Interesting. I would think that if there was any danger in him playing he would not be allowed to play. I have never seen or head this anywhere.

Quote
The Boston Celtics announced Saturday that forward Jeff Green will undergo heart surgery next month and will miss the entire 2011-12 season.

A routine physical administered after Green agreed to a one-year, $9 million contract with the Celtics last week detected an aortic aneurysm.

After consulting with leading cardiac specialists, the decision was made to completely repair Green's condition, and doctors indicated to him that he should be able to resume his basketball career during the 2012-13 season.

This is from ESPN's article after it was announced that Jeff Green was having heart surgery.

The NBA and the Boston Celtics wouldn't have Jeff Green on the floor if he were under some serious risk this season.  I don't mean to undersell the seriousness of heart surgery, but doctors expected Jeff Green to play this season.  That report you saw must have been about someone else.

it wasn't.
because what you copy and pasted said he SHOULD be able to resume.
just like D Rose and Bynum SHOULD come back this year (those it's looking slimmer and slimmer).

please read the article I just posted
http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/8949730/jeff-green-flourishing-boston-celtics-harness-energy

they said it'd take a full 2 years before he was FULLY recovered.
he can play, but he'll still feel some things.

everyone just would like to continue to take away the serious of having a blockage in your arteries.
yall ever knew anyone who had a stroke or heart attack? cuz we could say that's not serious then. THAT'S what Jeff was in risk of.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Fafnir on February 24, 2013, 04:06:08 PM
I thought Green's doctor's said it'd be two years for him to fully come back physically, not get back to playing. Said he'd still have sporadic weakness and sudden pains even after he was fully cleared. That sort of thing.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: celtsfan84 on February 24, 2013, 04:07:57 PM
I thought Green's doctor's said it'd be two years for him to fully come back physically, not get back to playing. Said he'd still have sporadic weakness and sudden pains even after he was fully cleared. That sort of thing.

That's what I've seen and read too (including in that Jackie MacMullan article).
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 24, 2013, 04:11:41 PM
There was a recent game during which Green spent much of 3rd or 4th quarter on the bench grabbing his chest as if in pain.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 24, 2013, 04:16:27 PM
There was a recent game during which Green spent much of 3rd or 4th quarter on the bench grabbing his chest as if in pain.

That was because he got hit in the chest by one of the Nuggets' players.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on February 24, 2013, 04:19:06 PM
There was a recent game during which Green spent much of 3rd or 4th quarter on the bench grabbing his chest as if in pain.

That was because he got hit in the chest by one of the Nuggets' players.

Hey, don't ruin my narrative, it's more dramatic.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: LB3533 on February 24, 2013, 04:21:04 PM
There was a recent game during which Green spent much of 3rd or 4th quarter on the bench grabbing his chest as if in pain.

I saw this too, but I was hoping he was grabbing or placing his left wrist on his chest and it was his wrist that was in pain not his chest.

Or Jeff was just trying to calm down a fast racing heart?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on February 24, 2013, 04:21:09 PM
There was a recent game during which Green spent much of 3rd or 4th quarter on the bench grabbing his chest as if in pain.

That was because he got hit in the chest by one of the Nuggets' players.

Hey, don't ruin my narrative, it's more dramatic.

My apologies; however, if you really wanted to make it dramatic, you should've included the phrase, "it was a heart stopping moment."
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on February 24, 2013, 04:26:41 PM
oh, ok..

I guess the only other question is, why has his play been so much better since the rondo injury?

did he click a mental swtich and is finally coming into his own?(which would be my hope)

or is it from a style of play more conducive to his skillset w/o rondo...I'e more freedom to make plays and handle the ball

  Sullinger probably did more to improve Green's play than Rondo's. It freed up a logjam of Sully/Green/Bass and gave Bass and Green steadier minutes.
And I still say the bounce up in play of many individuals has more to do with them looking in the mirror and saying to thenselves after the rash of injuries:

"Am I giving this team everything I can or can I give more?" and then turned up the effort that should have been there in the first place and made this team one of the top 4 contending for a title this year. Many players started playing much better and it has to do with a more determined effort and commitment that wasn't there before the Rondo injury.

  There's definitely more effort from some of the players since Rondo's been out. There was also PP and Terry getting somewhat healthier. But not having set lineups, set rotations, set roles or consistent minutes for players will have a negative effect on the team as well.

So we're back to the "more effort" myth.

  And the accompanying "if I don't see something everyone who does see it is wrong" rebuttal.

And I've kept asking the questions, keep pointing to different facets that disprove the assessment, and there's yet to be anything that resembles a proper counter to those points.

  You've disagreed with claims which isn't the same thing as disproving them.

More than anything we've been seeing a phenomenon that was already happening within the 2nd unit, particularly since January began, well before Rondo went down.

  I'd say what we're seeing has been going on in fits and starts since mid-December, just more consistently.

The only player that is noticeably playing harder is Bass, but I don't think that has much to do with Rondo. A case can be made for Green, yet that proposes we ignore that vast improvement we were already noticing in January before Rondo went down compared to the earlier portions of the season, and it suggest we ignore the overall defensive effort that has been in place for most of the year.

Who exactly is playing with more effort?

  Bass, as you say. Pierce and Terry were definitely playing harder although Danny said they were playing through injuries in January. Lee and Green are definitely playing more aggressively and more consistently. Even KG's been pulling down more rebounds. The players have also clearly been more focused on defenses in terms of fewer missed assignments and missed rotations. Players are also making more of an effort to get into the front court in transition.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: 33_Larry Legend_33 on February 25, 2013, 09:56:03 AM
Jeff Green needs to start.  Period.  Doc is so foolish for continually believing that Bass is a starter in this league and that Green is a bench/role player.  Switch their roles, and let's see this play out.  Some guys aren't meant to be caged, and Green should be starting.  I think Doc is an overrated moron...but that's just me.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 06, 2013, 09:33:11 PM
Beat it. Jeff Green outdueled All-Star Paul George tonight, hit the game-winner.

He's on a roll, and you can't say he's not in consideration to storm this league in a few years, right? Believe in Green.

You can't even say, "but you can't trust him in late-game scenarios" now.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: illestmcsgt on March 06, 2013, 10:12:45 PM
Jeff Green needs to start.  Period.  Doc is so foolish for continually believing that Bass is a starter in this league and that Green is a bench/role player.  Switch their roles, and let's see this play out.  Some guys aren't meant to be caged, and Green should be starting.  I think Doc is an overrated moron...but that's just me.

I don't understand all of this hate for Bass and Doc. If we are winning why change it? I think Jeff Green coming in for Pierce so he can rest is better than him starting at PF. Bass hardly plays as much anymore with Green playing better as of late. It doesn't matter who starts it only matters who ends the game.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: KGs Knee on March 06, 2013, 10:42:23 PM
Jeff Green has been much improved over the last few months, I've been really impressed.  I can honestly say that he might very well be earning his contract, and also be a viable part of the team going forward.

He will never be a top 5 SF in this league, though.  James, Durant, and Anthony will still be the top 3 SF's 5 years from now.  That leaves two spots.

Rudy Gay is better, and likely will continue to be.  Paul George is better already, younger, and will likely only get better.  Kawhi Leonard, is also younger, and has a brighter future.  Same for Harrison Barnes.  Those are just the names off the top of my head that Green has to compete with, I'm sure there are others.

Top 5, not likely.  Top 10, real possiblity.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: clover on March 07, 2013, 12:11:11 AM
Jeff Green needs to start.  Period.  Doc is so foolish for continually believing that Bass is a starter in this league and that Green is a bench/role player.  Switch their roles, and let's see this play out.  Some guys aren't meant to be caged, and Green should be starting.  I think Doc is an overrated moron...but that's just me.

Doc played Bass for 19 minutes tonight, and Green for 34.

Oh, and I take Green over Gay.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: LakersForDays on March 07, 2013, 01:02:02 AM
This kid has flashed moments of brilliance of already. You guys have a gem on your hands IMO. Even the great "Big Game James" has acknowledged him.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: wahz on March 07, 2013, 01:08:00 AM
There was a recent game during which Green spent much of 3rd or 4th quarter on the bench grabbing his chest as if in pain.

I saw this too, but I was hoping he was grabbing or placing his left wrist on his chest and it was his wrist that was in pain not his chest.

Or Jeff was just trying to calm down a fast racing heart?

As one who would know, initially if you get hit on the wires around the sternum, it hurts like you have been stabbed. After a few years it will sting and be sore but not be anywhere near as bad
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: jdz101 on March 07, 2013, 03:32:51 AM
  I think Doc is an overrated moron...but that's just me.

An overrated moron that you probably would have dissed out even harder if he and Armond Hill hadnt won the game with that beautiful play at the end.

Sigh.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Mr Green on March 07, 2013, 07:06:24 AM
Jeff Green is a peacock you gotta let him flyyyyyyyyyyyy!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: vjcsmoke on March 07, 2013, 07:21:13 AM
Quote
You know why I don't think Green will be a top five SF?  Because the talent at that position is VERY good right now and for the future.  LeBron, Melo, George, Gay, etc.  these guys are better than Green right now, and will still be better in two years.

Look, I like Jeff, but he is NEVER going to be a top five SF.

That awkward moment when you only count four.

And George and Gay aren't going to be guaranteed better. The only two guaranteed are LeBron and KD.
Green is on the level of George, Batum, and MAYBE Gay.
So apart from LBJ, KD, and Melo, it's George, Green, Batum, Gay.

Is he top two out of those four? We can only hope. But I think he will be.

That awkward moment when you don't have any answers to my argument and try to nitpick.

You can add KD to that list.  Gay is going to be better than Green and so is George.

Gay and George are FAR better than Green right now.

Batum and Green are probably on the same level.

Green can never get better than Batum, Gay, or George?

And before the other night you probably would say the Celtics had no chance to beat the Pacers either.

http://bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/03/07/jeff-green-layup-caps-improbable-celtics-comeback-against-pacers/LembB3nqQHijP3VzOhhqvJ/story.html

There are no absolutes in sports.  JG has innate talent, but whether or not he can bring it out is up to him.  Gay is asked to be the #1 option in Toronto.  JG hasn't had to do that yet.  Not when we have Pierce and KG still. 

But it speaks volumes to me that the game ending play was drawn up involving JG as the finisher and KG had no hesitation delivering the ball to Green who won the game with all the marbles on the line.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: clover on March 07, 2013, 07:31:12 AM
Just this season, coming off of surgery and the layoff, Green has a .54 TS% to Gay's .46.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: triboy16f on March 07, 2013, 07:38:00 AM
Jeff Green is a better Lamar Odom. Well Lamar Odom can be good when his motor is on too

Jeff Green has this unorthodox step jump and layup that catches ppl in surprise. But yesterday he did it twice during crucial situations vs Hibbert and got it blocked.

He has to develop a drive, stop and pull a jump shot right about now.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CFAN38 on March 07, 2013, 10:06:33 AM
In two year I expect the list to go

1a Lebron
1b Durante
3.  George
4.   Melo
Then a big group of simulate 3s
Gay
Batum
Gilcrest
Leonard
Green
Wiggins
Dent
Time will tell if green is the top of the 3rd tier. I expect with as a starting small forward to be a 16 pt 5rb guy while shooting good percentages and exploiting mismatches as a small ball 4. I don't know if that will place him above the likes of gay and batum.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 20, 2013, 07:15:55 PM
I'm curious to hear your thoughts after his second superb performance in a row against the best SF in the world, possibly ever.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 20, 2013, 07:17:33 PM
i continue to say

when JG is asked to be 'that guy', he will rise to the occasion by providing scoring. whatever way he desires.

work on the rebounding...that'd be great. work on his play making, that'd be nice too, though i don't need it.

because ykno..KD is an excellent playmaker and Dirk is an even BETTER rebounder...smh
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on March 20, 2013, 07:20:37 PM
I'm curious to hear your thoughts after his second superb performance in a row against the best SF in the world, possibly ever.

Going by that logic, if he can perform so well against the best SF and player in the NBA, why isn't he absolutely destroying every other SF?

The only way you can defend that is by saying he gets up for games against LeBron, which, while nice, is yet another sign that Green is incredibly inconsistent.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: jaketwice on March 20, 2013, 07:24:44 PM
I remember the days... ...2007, 2008. ...threads wouldn't get 150 posts in them so quickly that you couldn't make heads or tails of what was going on.

Amazing how this forum has grown.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 20, 2013, 07:31:29 PM
I'm curious to hear your thoughts after his second superb performance in a row against the best SF in the world, possibly ever.

Going by that logic, if he can perform so well against the best SF and player in the NBA, why isn't he absolutely destroying every other SF?

The only way you can defend that is by saying he gets up for games against LeBron, which, while nice, is yet another sign that Green is incredibly inconsistent.

riiiiiight
because rondo and paul get up for every game
 ::)

and greens defender was battier, which he had an obvious advantage. sometimes you have it. sometimes you don't.

with starting and with the greenlight to essentially be that guy, he got 43 against the champs. but leave it to celtics fans to take all of that away from him. while heat fans are terrified of jeff green. smh -- i bet we forget what he did last time against the Heat.

anywho.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on March 20, 2013, 07:38:37 PM
I'm curious to hear your thoughts after his second superb performance in a row against the best SF in the world, possibly ever.

Going by that logic, if he can perform so well against the best SF and player in the NBA, why isn't he absolutely destroying every other SF?

The only way you can defend that is by saying he gets up for games against LeBron, which, while nice, is yet another sign that Green is incredibly inconsistent.

riiiiiight
because rondo and paul get up for every game
 ::)

and greens defender was battier, which he had an obvious advantage. sometimes you have it. sometimes you don't.

with starting and with the greenlight to essentially be that guy, he got 43 against the champs. but leave it to celtics fans to take all of that away from him. while heat fans are terrified of jeff green. smh -- i bet we forget what he did last time against the Heat.

anywho.

Not sure how Rondo and Pierce found their way into a thread about Jeff Green, but whatever.

If you really want to know, Rondo and Pierce show up way more than Green does, and it has nothing to do with him not starting.

There's this thing called aggression, and it's up to you to be aggressive.  It doesn't matter if you're given the green light, you can still be aggressive.  Green, more often than not this year, hasn't been aggressive.

I'm not a Heat fan, but I am scared of Jeff Green.  Before every game I'm scared because he might not show up, and we need him to perform if we want to win.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 20, 2013, 07:42:02 PM
I'm curious to hear your thoughts after his second superb performance in a row against the best SF in the world, possibly ever.

Going by that logic, if he can perform so well against the best SF and player in the NBA, why isn't he absolutely destroying every other SF?

The only way you can defend that is by saying he gets up for games against LeBron, which, while nice, is yet another sign that Green is incredibly inconsistent.

He really isn't. Since Rondo's injury his stats have been great and up-to-contract. He's being judged on his past, which is slightly unfair. Looking at how he's playing NOW, he's playing just like we want him to.

If anything, the Celtics are inconsistent. Beat the good teams, lose to the bad ones! :) Carmelo Anthony is also ridiculously inconsistent as well, so it's not that bad. Rondo definitely takes off some "easy games" which aren't as easy as one would think.

I think Jeff doesn't play lazy-ball and gives all he has. He learned a valuable lesson from the surgery and it's coming out now. He's a strong player and can get into the paint while hitting jumpers/threes. His defense is better than I thought it was and overall he plays a nice game.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on March 20, 2013, 07:48:15 PM
I'm curious to hear your thoughts after his second superb performance in a row against the best SF in the world, possibly ever.

Going by that logic, if he can perform so well against the best SF and player in the NBA, why isn't he absolutely destroying every other SF?

The only way you can defend that is by saying he gets up for games against LeBron, which, while nice, is yet another sign that Green is incredibly inconsistent.

He really isn't. Since Rondo's injury his stats have been great and up-to-contract. He's being judged on his past, which is slightly unfair. Looking at how he's playing NOW, he's playing just like we want him to.

Strongly disagree.

Can I acknowledge that Green has been playing better in the past two-and-a-half months?  Sure.  Great job, Jeff.

It cannot be forgotten, however, that Green played pretty poorly during the first two-and-a-half months of the season.  Don't try the "Well, he just had heart surgery" argument with me because if that's really the case, Green shouldn't have been playing in November and December if that's what was hindering him.

When evaluating a player, it's necessary to look at their full body of work, whether that's their seasonal performance or career performance.  You can pinpoint any purple patches they have, but in the end, their performance on the whole cannot be left out.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 20, 2013, 07:58:36 PM
I'm curious to hear your thoughts after his second superb performance in a row against the best SF in the world, possibly ever.

Going by that logic, if he can perform so well against the best SF and player in the NBA, why isn't he absolutely destroying every other SF?

The only way you can defend that is by saying he gets up for games against LeBron, which, while nice, is yet another sign that Green is incredibly inconsistent.

He really isn't. Since Rondo's injury his stats have been great and up-to-contract. He's being judged on his past, which is slightly unfair. Looking at how he's playing NOW, he's playing just like we want him to.

Strongly disagree.

Can I acknowledge that Green has been playing better in the past two-and-a-half months?  Sure.  Great job, Jeff.

It cannot be forgotten, however, that Green played pretty poorly during the first two-and-a-half months of the season.  Don't try the "Well, he just had heart surgery" argument with me because if that's really the case, Green shouldn't have been playing in November and December if that's what was hindering him.

When evaluating a player, it's necessary to look at their full body of work, whether that's their seasonal performance or career performance.  You can pinpoint any purple patches they have, but in the end, their performance on the whole cannot be left out.

Sure, but it's a known fact that Green always takes time to get into a season. For example, he started pretty poorly in 2009-10 (OKC days), but finished his last 44 games with 43 double-digit games (including 30 with 15+ points). I'm sure that's enoguh to prove a point of consistency.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Boris Badenov on March 20, 2013, 09:08:18 PM
I'm curious to hear your thoughts after his second superb performance in a row against the best SF in the world, possibly ever.

Going by that logic, if he can perform so well against the best SF and player in the NBA, why isn't he absolutely destroying every other SF?

The only way you can defend that is by saying he gets up for games against LeBron, which, while nice, is yet another sign that Green is incredibly inconsistent.

He really isn't. Since Rondo's injury his stats have been great and up-to-contract. He's being judged on his past, which is slightly unfair. Looking at how he's playing NOW, he's playing just like we want him to.

Strongly disagree.

Can I acknowledge that Green has been playing better in the past two-and-a-half months?  Sure.  Great job, Jeff.

It cannot be forgotten, however, that Green played pretty poorly during the first two-and-a-half months of the season.  Don't try the "Well, he just had heart surgery" argument with me because if that's really the case, Green shouldn't have been playing in November and December if that's what was hindering him.

When evaluating a player, it's necessary to look at their full body of work, whether that's their seasonal performance or career performance.  You can pinpoint any purple patches they have, but in the end, their performance on the whole cannot be left out.

Sure, but it's a known fact that Green always takes time to get into a season. For example, he started pretty poorly in 2009-10 (OKC days), but finished his last 44 games with 43 double-digit games (including 30 with 15+ points). I'm sure that's enoguh to prove a point of consistency.

Well, except for the fact that (a) the example you cite happened three years ago, and (b) there is a season and a half of Green's career between that period and the current period. What you're saying proves exactly nothing.

If you're responding to someone accusing you of cherry-picking, you can't just go back and cherry-pick something else and ignore the rest.

I do happen to believe, for what it's worth, that Green has proved himself to be an incredibly consistent player over the entire course of his career. But as we've discussed OVER and OVER, he has been very consistent at a pretty mediocre level.

Even this year, overall his numbers are just mildly better than his career averages, and pretty indistinguishable from his numbers in any other year. I've posted this link before but I'll post it again. Look at the per-36 averages.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenje02.html

I will be as happy as anyone if Green sustains this level of performance, but it's gotta happen for at least a full half season, and more plausibly a full season, before we start talking about whether Green has truly improved.

In other threads - or maybe this one, it's like some sort of zombie that re-animates after every good game by Green and goes into hibernation when he stinks - I've pointed out two-month periods from earlier in his career when his numbers were just as good as they've been recently. He's always regressed to the mean.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: LB3533 on March 20, 2013, 11:44:50 PM
If Green is putting up similar or slightly better than career averages per 36....as a bench player...then he certainly has improved from "mediocre" level (if you want to call his career with OKC mediocre, which I don't).

Demarr Derozan for 9 million per year, get out with that crap.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on March 21, 2013, 01:08:01 PM
He wasn't a top SF in last night's game, which is what is so maddening with Green. The complete on/off switch his game seems to have at times. And the fact that if he isn't scoring, he brings very little else to the table except as another body to throw out there on defense.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: LB3533 on March 21, 2013, 01:41:40 PM
He wasn't a top SF in last night's game, which is what is so maddening with Green. The complete on/off switch his game seems to have at times. And the fact that if he isn't scoring, he brings very little else to the table except as another body to throw out there on defense.

Jeff was top player in the 1st QTR last night, playing PF. (and along side Pierce and the 1st unit).

Check the rotation Jeff played with after the 1st quarter.

- All of his 2nd quarter minutes along side a cold Jet
- All of his 2nd quarter minutes next to erratic, yet fun loving Jordan Crawford

- Half of his 3rd quarter minutes next to the same duo
- All of his 4th quarter minutes next to these two

For that game last night, I am adding up nearly 7 minutes (next to KG) and 8 minutes (next to Pierce) that Jeff Green had shared court time. Those minutes are chopped up stints, not in rhythm or within any flow of the game too.

And you and most fans expect a bench player to be consistent, night in and night out? Really? For real?

In KG's words: "Are you serious?"

 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on March 21, 2013, 02:42:31 PM
I am serious. bench players ACTUALLY GET PAID to come off the bench and play with other players that aren't always great and are expected to produce. There's an entire professional career that hundreds in the NBA are employed at where this is EXACTLY their job description.

Get off bench. Get warmed up super fast. Produce.

Doesn't matter how many starters they play with.
Doesn't matter how many minutes they play.
Doesn't matter how well the players he does play with plays.

His job is to produce.

Too often that doesn't happen with him consistently. I don't expect him to have a good game every game. I don't expect him to put up numbers that are unrealistic. I just want him to give a consistent effort and produce effectively on a consistent basis.

Last night after the first quarter he disappeared. The same way he did in the 4th quarter against Miami. The same way he does way more often than I would like. He's been getting better. I will admit that. But a game like last night's only shows me, he ain't there yet and maybe, just maybe, he never will be. He just may not have it in him to be a consistent producer and like Danny Ainge said, we shouldn't expect him to be Paul Pierce because he never will be.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: LB3533 on March 21, 2013, 03:00:36 PM
I am serious. bench players ACTUALLY GET PAID to come off the bench and play with other players that aren't always great and are expected to produce. There's an entire professional career that hundreds in the NBA are employed at where this is EXACTLY their job description.

Get off bench. Get warmed up super fast. Produce.

Doesn't matter how many starters they play with.
Doesn't matter how many minutes they play.
Doesn't matter how well the players he does play with plays.

His job is to produce.

Too often that doesn't happen with him consistently. I don't expect him to have a good game every game. I don't expect him to put up numbers that are unrealistic. I just want him to give a consistent effort and produce effectively on a consistent basis.

Last night after the first quarter he disappeared. The same way he did in the 4th quarter against Miami. The same way he does way more often than I would like. He's been getting better. I will admit that. But a game like last night's only shows me, he ain't there yet and maybe, just maybe, he never will be. He just may not have it in him to be a consistent producer and like Danny Ainge said, we shouldn't expect him to be Paul Pierce because he never will be.

I would agree with you if Doc were using Jeff as a traditional 6th man, but Doc isn't  doing that.

Jeff isn't even the 1st guy off the bench on most nights.

Our offensive system does not favor 1 on 1 ball no matter how many Paul Pierce ISOs you see. We are team that relies on passing and spreading the wealth on the offensive end.

Traditional 6th men are paid to execute their skills in that manner.

Jeff Green has not been a traditional reserve player in his career. That is not his skill set.

Traditional 6th men

Jason Terry
Jamal Crawford
JR Smith
Lou Williams
Manu Ginobli

All of those guys are ball handlers who shoot and score and need to the rock to do their thing to execute their skill sets.

If you want the same 16-17 points, 3-5 assists per game off the bench you're going to have to convince Doc to force feed Jeff Green.

Other wise be happy with an efficient 11-12 points per game you'll most likely get from Jeff.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 21, 2013, 04:36:13 PM
He wasn't a top SF in last night's game, which is what is so maddening with Green. The complete on/off switch his game seems to have at times. And the fact that if he isn't scoring, he brings very little else to the table except as another body to throw out there on defense.

Jeff was top player in the 1st QTR last night, playing PF. (and along side Pierce and the 1st unit).

Check the rotation Jeff played with after the 1st quarter.

- All of his 2nd quarter minutes along side a cold Jet
- All of his 2nd quarter minutes next to erratic, yet fun loving Jordan Crawford

- Half of his 3rd quarter minutes next to the same duo
- All of his 4th quarter minutes next to these two

For that game last night, I am adding up nearly 7 minutes (next to KG) and 8 minutes (next to Pierce) that Jeff Green had shared court time. Those minutes are chopped up stints, not in rhythm or within any flow of the game too.

And you and most fans expect a bench player to be consistent, night in and night out? Really? For real?

In KG's words: "Are you serious?"

this thissy this
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Celtics4ever on March 21, 2013, 05:59:15 PM
He may be a top ten PF too.   SF I just don't see it, as he doesn't have the best handle.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 21, 2013, 06:00:17 PM
He may be a top ten PF too.   SF I just don't see it, as he doesn't have the best handle.

He has one of the best handles on our team at least. I trust him to walk the ball up a lot
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: coco on March 21, 2013, 08:00:59 PM
He won't be a top anything playing only 30mins/gm

He might turn into a top 5 SF, or at least a starter, but it won't happen in Boston. 
Remember Tony Allen?  Had to leave the Cs to get starter's minutes.

Heck, not even with Sully being out of the rotation can JG average more than 30mins/gm
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Celtics18 on March 22, 2013, 09:48:24 AM
He won't be a top anything playing only 30mins/gm

He might turn into a top 5 SF, or at least a starter, but it won't happen in Boston. 
Remember Tony Allen?  Had to leave the Cs to get starter's minutes.

Heck, not even with Sully being out of the rotation can JG average more than 30mins/gm

Since Sully's been out of the lineup, Jeff has been averaging about 31 minutes per game. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Boris Badenov on March 22, 2013, 11:16:19 AM
He may be a top ten PF too.   SF I just don't see it, as he doesn't have the best handle.

He has one of the best handles on our team at least.


No he doesn't. His TO% is 11.1 which is pretty bad - significantly below average for a SF, particularly one who rarely makes plays for others. As a point of comparison Pierce's is 11.4, but Pierce is averaging three times as many assists per minute.

His assist to TO ratio is 0.9, which is the worst of any Celtics rotation player except Wilcox (who I'm pretty sure isn't a great ball handler).

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: moiso on March 22, 2013, 12:44:53 PM
I am serious. bench players ACTUALLY GET PAID to come off the bench and play with other players that aren't always great and are expected to produce. There's an entire professional career that hundreds in the NBA are employed at where this is EXACTLY their job description.

Get off bench. Get warmed up super fast. Produce.

Doesn't matter how many starters they play with.
Doesn't matter how many minutes they play.
Doesn't matter how well the players he does play with plays.

His job is to produce.

Too often that doesn't happen with him consistently. I don't expect him to have a good game every game. I don't expect him to put up numbers that are unrealistic. I just want him to give a consistent effort and produce effectively on a consistent basis.

Last night after the first quarter he disappeared. The same way he did in the 4th quarter against Miami. The same way he does way more often than I would like. He's been getting better. I will admit that. But a game like last night's only shows me, he ain't there yet and maybe, just maybe, he never will be. He just may not have it in him to be a consistent producer and like Danny Ainge said, we shouldn't expect him to be Paul Pierce because he never will be.

I would agree with you if Doc were using Jeff as a traditional 6th man, but Doc isn't  doing that.

Jeff isn't even the 1st guy off the bench on most nights.

Our offensive system does not favor 1 on 1 ball no matter how many Paul Pierce ISOs you see. We are team that relies on passing and spreading the wealth on the offensive end.

Traditional 6th men are paid to execute their skills in that manner.

Jeff Green has not been a traditional reserve player in his career. That is not his skill set.

Traditional 6th men

Jason Terry
Jamal Crawford
JR Smith
Lou Williams
Manu Ginobli

All of those guys are ball handlers who shoot and score and need to the rock to do their thing to execute their skill sets.

If you want the same 16-17 points, 3-5 assists per game off the bench you're going to have to convince Doc to force feed Jeff Green.

Other wise be happy with an efficient 11-12 points per game you'll most likely get from Jeff.
So if you are taller than 6'6" you can't be a traditional 6th man?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticG1 on March 22, 2013, 01:11:45 PM
Its not that crazy to picture him being top 5. After melo, lebron and durant the next few slots will prob be up in the air.

Just went through a list and there aren't a ton of great. A few right now I would place above him but things could change. I mean I don't think Rudy Gay is necessairly going to be a better option in the next 5 years. Or Galinari. Or who else?

There's going to be a huge drop off after the top 3 but after that I think Jeff green will absolutely be top 10 and then 4-7 will always be an arguement like it is with every position. I mean with of people rate rondo top 2 while others rate top 10 so who knows
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on March 22, 2013, 03:34:07 PM
Its not that crazy to picture him being top 5. After melo, lebron and durant the next few slots will prob be up in the air.

Just went through a list and there aren't a ton of great. A few right now I would place above him but things could change. I mean I don't think Rudy Gay is necessairly going to be a better option in the next 5 years. Or Galinari. Or who else?

There's going to be a huge drop off after the top 3 but after that I think Jeff green will absolutely be top 10 and then 4-7 will always be an arguement like it is with every position. I mean with of people rate rondo top 2 while others rate top 10 so who knows
Nic Batum, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Chandler Parsons, Evan Turner and Kidd-Gilchrist are all in the mix. Rudy Gay and Luol Deng, while not great, may probably also be better. Can't put Galinary in this list until he stops shooting .420 from the floor.

Batum and George are probably locks to be better or at least as good. So even top 10 is, at best, an open issue at this point.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 22, 2013, 03:58:02 PM
Its not that crazy to picture him being top 5. After melo, lebron and durant the next few slots will prob be up in the air.

Just went through a list and there aren't a ton of great. A few right now I would place above him but things could change. I mean I don't think Rudy Gay is necessairly going to be a better option in the next 5 years. Or Galinari. Or who else?

There's going to be a huge drop off after the top 3 but after that I think Jeff green will absolutely be top 10 and then 4-7 will always be an arguement like it is with every position. I mean with of people rate rondo top 2 while others rate top 10 so who knows
Nic Batum, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Chandler Parsons, Evan Turner and Kidd-Gilchrist are all in the mix. Rudy Gay and Luol Deng, while not great, may probably also be better. Can't put Galinary in this list until he stops shooting .420 from the floor.

Batum and George are probably locks to be better or at least as good. So even top 10 is, at best, an open issue at this point.

In my opinion, the three guys fighting to be in the top 5 will be Batum George and Green. Pierce should be number 4 right now, but he won't be there in two years.

Leonard and Parsons will definitely be getting better (and Kidd-Glichrist), but Green/George/Batum in their primes will definitely be better. At least, in my opinion.

All we can do is wait!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Atzar on March 22, 2013, 04:16:07 PM
He may be a top ten PF too.   SF I just don't see it, as he doesn't have the best handle.

He has one of the best handles on our team at least. I trust him to walk the ball up a lot

Walking the ball up isn't a good measure of a player's ability to handle the ball.  Tony Allen walked the ball up a lot.  Did he have a good handle?  What about Avery Bradley? 

Ballhandling ability comes into play when dribbling in traffic in half-court situations, and also when changing directions and attempting to create a shot in straight-up iso situations. 


As it is, Jeff Green is devastating when allowed to attack the rim in a straight line going to his right.  Miami never really took that away from him, and he lit them on fire.  We also saw this last night against New Orleans in the first quarter.  But once the Hornets (not exactly a good defensive team) took the right-hand drive away from him, suddenly he became passive and didn't look to attack nearly as much.  Taking his primary weapon from him completely changed his approach to the game. 

The one thing I loved to see against Miami was the confidence to keep attacking when he had it going.  He's much more aggressive and makes much quicker decisions when he's feeling good about himself.  The next step is to expand his comfort zone - add a couple of post moves, work on that left hand, develop a pull-up jumper for situations where he can't get all the way to the basket. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Atzar on March 22, 2013, 04:18:41 PM
Its not that crazy to picture him being top 5. After melo, lebron and durant the next few slots will prob be up in the air.

Just went through a list and there aren't a ton of great. A few right now I would place above him but things could change. I mean I don't think Rudy Gay is necessairly going to be a better option in the next 5 years. Or Galinari. Or who else?

There's going to be a huge drop off after the top 3 but after that I think Jeff green will absolutely be top 10 and then 4-7 will always be an arguement like it is with every position. I mean with of people rate rondo top 2 while others rate top 10 so who knows
Nic Batum, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Chandler Parsons, Evan Turner and Kidd-Gilchrist are all in the mix. Rudy Gay and Luol Deng, while not great, may probably also be better. Can't put Galinary in this list until he stops shooting .420 from the floor.

Batum and George are probably locks to be better or at least as good. So even top 10 is, at best, an open issue at this point.

In my opinion, the three guys fighting to be in the top 5 will be Batum George and Green. Pierce should be number 4 right now, but he won't be there in two years.

Leonard and Parsons will definitely be getting better (and Kidd-Glichrist), but Green/George/Batum in their primes will definitely be better. At least, in my opinion.

All we can do is wait!

I'd add Danny Granger to that list.  People have forgotten about him because he's been hurt all year, but a healthy Danny Granger is a very dangerous player. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on March 22, 2013, 04:23:08 PM
Its not that crazy to picture him being top 5. After melo, lebron and durant the next few slots will prob be up in the air.

Just went through a list and there aren't a ton of great. A few right now I would place above him but things could change. I mean I don't think Rudy Gay is necessairly going to be a better option in the next 5 years. Or Galinari. Or who else?

There's going to be a huge drop off after the top 3 but after that I think Jeff green will absolutely be top 10 and then 4-7 will always be an arguement like it is with every position. I mean with of people rate rondo top 2 while others rate top 10 so who knows
Nic Batum, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Chandler Parsons, Evan Turner and Kidd-Gilchrist are all in the mix. Rudy Gay and Luol Deng, while not great, may probably also be better. Can't put Galinary in this list until he stops shooting .420 from the floor.

Batum and George are probably locks to be better or at least as good. So even top 10 is, at best, an open issue at this point.

In my opinion, the three guys fighting to be in the top 5 will be Batum George and Green. Pierce should be number 4 right now, but he won't be there in two years.

Leonard and Parsons will definitely be getting better (and Kidd-Glichrist), but Green/George/Batum in their primes will definitely be better. At least, in my opinion.

All we can do is wait!
Parsons is already playing at a level comparable to Green, and he's only in his second year in the league. He's closer to Batum and George right now than he is to Leonard and Kidd-Gilchrist.

Rudy Gay is 11 days (!) older than Green -- he'll be just as much in his prime as Green, and currently he's the better player. Deng is a year and a day older than Gay, so pretty much the same argument applies.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on March 22, 2013, 04:26:10 PM
I'd add Danny Granger to that list.  People have forgotten about him because he's been hurt all year, but a healthy Danny Granger is a very dangerous player.
The problem with Granger is not (only) that he's injured, it's also that he's considerably older than the lot we're discussing here (will be 30 to 35 over the next 5 years).
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticG1 on March 22, 2013, 04:46:25 PM
Its not that crazy to picture him being top 5. After melo, lebron and durant the next few slots will prob be up in the air.

Just went through a list and there aren't a ton of great. A few right now I would place above him but things could change. I mean I don't think Rudy Gay is necessairly going to be a better option in the next 5 years. Or Galinari. Or who else?

There's going to be a huge drop off after the top 3 but after that I think Jeff green will absolutely be top 10 and then 4-7 will always be an arguement like it is with every position. I mean with of people rate rondo top 2 while others rate top 10 so who knows
Nic Batum, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Chandler Parsons, Evan Turner and Kidd-Gilchrist are all in the mix. Rudy Gay and Luol Deng, while not great, may probably also be better. Can't put Galinary in this list until he stops shooting .420 from the floor.

Batum and George are probably locks to be better or at least as good. So even top 10 is, at best, an open issue at this point.

In my opinion, the three guys fighting to be in the top 5 will be Batum George and Green. Pierce should be number 4 right now, but he won't be there in two years.

Leonard and Parsons will definitely be getting better (and Kidd-Glichrist), but Green/George/Batum in their primes will definitely be better. At least, in my opinion.

All we can do is wait!
Parsons is already playing at a level comparable to Green, and he's only in his second year in the league. He's closer to Batum and George right now than he is to Leonard and Kidd-Gilchrist.

Rudy Gay is 11 days (!) older than Green -- he'll be just as much in his prime as Green, and currently he's the better player. Deng is a year and a day older than Gay, so pretty much the same argument applies.

I forgot about George. He's the only one I put clearly above green.

Jeff Greens per 36 is pretty close to Batum probably better. Batum plays like 10 more min than him. Leonard and MKG who knows. Esp MKG.

Jeff green will def be in the mix. Especially given his contract which people looked at in a bad light. Well look at gays contract. George will probably get max money.

If we just go off of this year I'd take green over a lot of these guys. Plus all these guys are starters playing more minutes. I don't think its that crazy to think that Green would be thriving playing 38-40 minutes a game like Deng or Batum
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Galeto on March 22, 2013, 06:13:30 PM
I don't know about Green as a top SF.  Most of his production this season has come as a backup SF and he's been at his best at PF guarded by PFs.  He's got such a speed advantage over bigs that it doesn't matter if he can only go in one direction or doesn't possess any dribble moves but those matter at SF.  I'm kind of mystified why Green doesn't possess a spin move or a crossover. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Celtics18 on March 22, 2013, 06:30:05 PM
I don't know about Green as a top SF.  Most of his production this season has come as a backup SF and he's been at his best at PF guarded by PFs.  He's got such a speed advantage over bigs that it doesn't matter if he can only go in one direction or doesn't possess any dribble moves but those matter at SF.  I'm kind of mystified why Green doesn't possess a spin move or a crossover.

I hate to say this again because I know it caused a bit of a minor uproar when it was mentioned in the preseason, but, what the heck, I'll risk it;  Jeff Green's moves to the basket are Worthy-esque. 

He has a good first step, and once he's by you, he just kinda glides through the lane and finishes.  No, he doesn't use any fancy moves, but once he gets it going, he's shown that he can be fairly tough to stop.

I find him fun to watch.  He's sort of the anti-Paul Pierce, who if anything can be accused of having too many moves.  They make for an interesting combination of small forwards. 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: triboy16f on March 22, 2013, 09:48:33 PM
Jeff Green has not changed from his days in college and probably never will as a basketball player. 

He will have more than his share of spectacular games, but won't be able to do it on a consistent basis.

What he will do on a consistent basis though is get you 10-15 pts, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, a few steals, a few blocks. Very Scott Pippen like support

I can't say Pippen was ever considered a top 5 sf back at his peak days. But he was def top 10 and big part of the reason the bulls were so good.

If the celtics have another "main" guy after pp and kg, i think green will be a very good support guy with once in a while amazing games like we saw him vs miami
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Boris Badenov on March 22, 2013, 10:14:03 PM
Jeff Green has not changed from his days in college and probably never will as a basketball player. 

He will have more than his share of spectacular games, but won't be able to do it on a consistent basis.

What he will do on a consistent basis though is get you 10-15 pts, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, a few steals, a few blocks. Very Scott Pippen like support

I can't say Pippen was ever considered a top 5 sf back at his peak days. But he was def top 10 and big part of the reason the bulls were so good.


Pippen was 1st team All-NBA for three consecutive years, and All-NBA 2nd/3rd team for 4 years in the seven years 1991-1998.

He was All-NBA defense 1st team for 8 consecutive years, and 2nd team for two other years.

Pippen was unquestionably the #1 small forward of his era.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Galeto on March 22, 2013, 11:51:19 PM
Jeff Green has not changed from his days in college and probably never will as a basketball player. 

He will have more than his share of spectacular games, but won't be able to do it on a consistent basis.

What he will do on a consistent basis though is get you 10-15 pts, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, a few steals, a few blocks. Very Scott Pippen like support

I can't say Pippen was ever considered a top 5 sf back at his peak days. But he was def top 10 and big part of the reason the bulls were so good.

If the celtics have another "main" guy after pp and kg, i think green will be a very good support guy with once in a while amazing games like we saw him vs miami

OMG, Pippen wasn't a top 5 SF in his peak days?  Really?  Wow.  Who were the five better small forwards and why didn't they make the 50 All-Time Greatest Players List?  That's a travesty!!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: triboy16f on March 23, 2013, 01:20:51 AM
ok i agree Pippen was a great sf. But what i meant not top 5 at his peak, is to take charge , carry the bulls and make clutch shots. That was 90 plus percent Jordan.

This is the similiarities i find with Jeff Green. Like a Pippen type . Without them it makes winning that much harder. But when you need to nail the coffin closed, they are not too great in doing it
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on March 23, 2013, 12:46:17 PM
ok i agree Pippen was a great sf. But what i meant not top 5 at his peak, is to take charge , carry the bulls and make clutch shots. That was 90 plus percent Jordan.

This is the similiarities i find with Jeff Green. Like a Pippen type . Without them it makes winning that much harder. But when you need to nail the coffin closed, they are not too great in doing it
Absurd notion. Pippen at his prime was the 2nd best player in basketball. Jeff Green is nothing like Pippen. Pippen played a career as second fiddle because he was paired with MJ for so much of his career. You obviously must have been extremely young or not born during the 90's to have the misguided opinion you have on Scottie Pippen.

Again, Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league for much of his peak and was never given his truly just due because he played in the shadow of MJ. Actuallt for a few of those peak years, Pippen was the best defensive player in the league, though he never got a DPOY because at that time, they just LOVED giving that award to shot blockers.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: clover on March 23, 2013, 01:23:12 PM
ok i agree Pippen was a great sf. But what i meant not top 5 at his peak, is to take charge , carry the bulls and make clutch shots. That was 90 plus percent Jordan.

This is the similiarities i find with Jeff Green. Like a Pippen type . Without them it makes winning that much harder. But when you need to nail the coffin closed, they are not too great in doing it
Absurd notion. Pippen at his prime was the 2nd best player in basketball. Jeff Green is nothing like Pippen. Pippen played a career as second fiddle because he was paired with MJ for so much of his career. You obviously must have been extremely young or not born during the 90's to have the misguided opinion you have on Scottie Pippen.

Again, Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league for much of his peak and was never given his truly just due because he played in the shadow of MJ. Actuallt for a few of those peak years, Pippen was the best defensive player in the league, though he never got a DPOY because at that time, they just LOVED giving that award to shot blockers.

Really?  Pippen was better than Magic?  Hakeem? The Admiral? The Mailman?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Boris Badenov on March 23, 2013, 02:11:28 PM
ok i agree Pippen was a great sf. But what i meant not top 5 at his peak, is to take charge , carry the bulls and make clutch shots. That was 90 plus percent Jordan.

This is the similiarities i find with Jeff Green. Like a Pippen type . Without them it makes winning that much harder. But when you need to nail the coffin closed, they are not too great in doing it
Absurd notion. Pippen at his prime was the 2nd best player in basketball. Jeff Green is nothing like Pippen. Pippen played a career as second fiddle because he was paired with MJ for so much of his career. You obviously must have been extremely young or not born during the 90's to have the misguided opinion you have on Scottie Pippen.

Again, Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league for much of his peak and was never given his truly just due because he played in the shadow of MJ. Actuallt for a few of those peak years, Pippen was the best defensive player in the league, though he never got a DPOY because at that time, they just LOVED giving that award to shot blockers.

I don't know that he was ever the 2nd best player in the league - it's hard to tell because he did defer a lot on offense.

I do think there's a good case for him being the best defensive player at SF ever. And, he might be in the conversation for top 5 SF ever as well. He and KG are the two best team defenders I have ever seen.

I mean, he was an absolutely dominant player on D, and could completely shut down anyone from PG to PF. So versatile. And while Pippen was not a great end-of-game offensive player, he won plenty of games at the other end, by getting a key stop or steal. That is just as important.

In the one year in which he was the focal point of the team, 1993-1994, he averaged 22 ppg, 9rpg, 5.6apg, 2.9spg and 0.8bpg while being named to The All-NBA 1st and All-NBA Defensive 1st teams.

The fact that he didn't win DPOY seems shocking until you look at the competition during the 1990s: Robinson, Hakeem, Rodman, Mutombo, Payton and Jordan. I don't know that there's ever been another period in NBA history with so many superb defenders.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Donoghus on March 23, 2013, 03:03:40 PM
ok i agree Pippen was a great sf. But what i meant not top 5 at his peak, is to take charge , carry the bulls and make clutch shots. That was 90 plus percent Jordan.

This is the similiarities i find with Jeff Green. Like a Pippen type . Without them it makes winning that much harder. But when you need to nail the coffin closed, they are not too great in doing it
Absurd notion. Pippen at his prime was the 2nd best player in basketball. Jeff Green is nothing like Pippen. Pippen played a career as second fiddle because he was paired with MJ for so much of his career. You obviously must have been extremely young or not born during the 90's to have the misguided opinion you have on Scottie Pippen.

Again, Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league for much of his peak and was never given his truly just due because he played in the shadow of MJ. Actuallt for a few of those peak years, Pippen was the best defensive player in the league, though he never got a DPOY because at that time, they just LOVED giving that award to shot blockers.

I don't know that he was ever the 2nd best player in the league - it's hard to tell because he did defer a lot on offense.

I do think there's a good case for him being the best defensive player at SF ever. And, he might be in the conversation for top 5 SF ever as well. He and KG are the two best team defenders I have ever seen.

I mean, he was an absolutely dominant player on D, and could completely shut down anyone from PG to PF. So versatile. And while Pippen was not a great end-of-game offensive player, he won plenty of games at the other end, by getting a key stop or steal. That is just as important.

In the one year in which he was the focal point of the team, 1993-1994, he averaged 22 ppg, 9rpg, 5.6apg, 2.9spg and 0.8bpg while being named to The All-NBA 1st and All-NBA Defensive 1st teams.

The fact that he didn't win DPOY seems shocking until you look at the competition during the 1990s: Robinson, Hakeem, Rodman, Mutombo, Payton and Jordan. I don't know that there's ever been another period in NBA history with so many superb defenders.

I never really thought of him as #2 although there was a good  3-4 year period in the mid 90s where I thought he was a Top 5 player, especially during Jordan's absence.   When Jordan was gone, he was right up there with Hakeem (who I thought was the best in the absensce), Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Kemp (yes), Malone, and Stockton. 

Not too hard to put him right up there.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on March 23, 2013, 04:07:05 PM
Its not that crazy to picture him being top 5. After melo, lebron and durant the next few slots will prob be up in the air.

Just went through a list and there aren't a ton of great. A few right now I would place above him but things could change. I mean I don't think Rudy Gay is necessairly going to be a better option in the next 5 years. Or Galinari. Or who else?

There's going to be a huge drop off after the top 3 but after that I think Jeff green will absolutely be top 10 and then 4-7 will always be an arguement like it is with every position. I mean with of people rate rondo top 2 while others rate top 10 so who knows
Nic Batum, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Chandler Parsons, Evan Turner and Kidd-Gilchrist are all in the mix. Rudy Gay and Luol Deng, while not great, may probably also be better. Can't put Galinary in this list until he stops shooting .420 from the floor.

Batum and George are probably locks to be better or at least as good. So even top 10 is, at best, an open issue at this point.

In my opinion, the three guys fighting to be in the top 5 will be Batum George and Green. Pierce should be number 4 right now, but he won't be there in two years.

Leonard and Parsons will definitely be getting better (and Kidd-Glichrist), but Green/George/Batum in their primes will definitely be better. At least, in my opinion.

All we can do is wait!
Parsons is already playing at a level comparable to Green, and he's only in his second year in the league. He's closer to Batum and George right now than he is to Leonard and Kidd-Gilchrist.

Rudy Gay is 11 days (!) older than Green -- he'll be just as much in his prime as Green, and currently he's the better player. Deng is a year and a day older than Gay, so pretty much the same argument applies.

I forgot about George. He's the only one I put clearly above green.

Jeff Greens per 36 is pretty close to Batum probably better. Batum plays like 10 more min than him. Leonard and MKG who knows. Esp MKG.

Jeff green will def be in the mix. Especially given his contract which people looked at in a bad light. Well look at gays contract. George will probably get max money.

If we just go off of this year I'd take green over a lot of these guys. Plus all these guys are starters playing more minutes. I don't think its that crazy to think that Green would be thriving playing 38-40 minutes a game like Deng or Batum
Batum averages 5 assists per game. Something Jeff Green has never done, and likely never will. Parsons, likewise, is averaging close to 4 apg. Gay and Deng are probably better rebounders than Green. Gay, despite having a miserable year, is likely the better scorer, and Deng is a tough defender.

Green may have more explosive dunks than any of them, but overall, unless we see more improvement, I don't see how he's a better player.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: triboy16f on March 23, 2013, 04:32:10 PM
ok i agree Pippen was a great sf. But what i meant not top 5 at his peak, is to take charge , carry the bulls and make clutch shots. That was 90 plus percent Jordan.

This is the similiarities i find with Jeff Green. Like a Pippen type . Without them it makes winning that much harder. But when you need to nail the coffin closed, they are not too great in doing it
Absurd notion. Pippen at his prime was the 2nd best player in basketball. Jeff Green is nothing like Pippen. Pippen played a career as second fiddle because he was paired with MJ for so much of his career. You obviously must have been extremely young or not born during the 90's to have the misguided opinion you have on Scottie Pippen.

Again, Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league for much of his peak and was never given his truly just due because he played in the shadow of MJ. Actuallt for a few of those peak years, Pippen was the best defensive player in the league, though he never got a DPOY because at that time, they just LOVED giving that award to shot blockers.

i think you got your bulls domination goggles on. 2nd best player in the league? There were 5-7 players considered better, due to their overall game. Pippen was a high level defensive player but not nearly as high level on offense. He was never a great shooter as one of the key issues he always dealth with

This was proven when Jordan semi retired, Pippen didn't take the bulls over the top.  Lots of games he couldn't put the nail in the coffin
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: clover on March 23, 2013, 05:12:19 PM
Look what Green's been shooting this year since he got back into the swing of things:

.512, .414, and.863 in February,and
.481, .407, .826 in March

At 4.1 and 4.2 RBs in the same time periods, he's got some room for growth there, shall we say, in that area.

But he's shown some top-level defense against some of the league's least defensible players. 

I think Danny made a very good trade and then a good signing after that to lock this guy up, but we mostly haven't noticed so far because he's still recovering from surgery and he's not perfect.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: indeedproceed on March 24, 2013, 12:03:19 AM
FTR, tonight is one of those games you point at if you're still on the fence (not that there haven't been great reasons for optimism as well). 43 minutes, 5 rebounds? When he's playing a majority of those minutes in the frontcourt? That's just flat out terrible. Especially when for a lot of those minutes the best big on the other side is Ed Davis or Darrell Arthur.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: moiso on March 24, 2013, 12:07:16 AM
FTR, tonight is one of those games you point at if you're still on the fence (not that there haven't been great reasons for optimism as well). 43 minutes, 5 rebounds? When he's playing a majority of those minutes in the frontcourt? That's just flat out terrible. Especially when for a lot of those minutes the best big on the other side is Ed Davis or Darrell Arthur.
He was pretty invisible.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 24, 2013, 12:12:53 AM
A slight problem is that, if Jeff isn't scoring he can't do much. He's a scorer, and when he doesn't score, he'll get a few rebounds, an assist or two, play some good defense and get a block or two, but all-in-all he's only a scorer. He scores, and when he doesn't he will get blasted.

So he better get scoring... 22ppg is viable, 24ppg would be nice. (not this year, of course)
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: indeedproceed on March 24, 2013, 12:26:47 AM
A slight problem is that, if Jeff isn't scoring he can't do much. He's a scorer, and when he doesn't score, he'll get a few rebounds, an assist or two, play some good defense and get a block or two, but all-in-all he's only a scorer. He scores, and when he doesn't he will get blasted.

So he better get scoring... 22ppg is viable, 24ppg would be nice. (not this year, of course)

But see here is the problem. Jeff Green should've scored well tonight. He shot 40% from the field (bad for a season, but for one game it's 'meh', not terrible). He was guarded by one of Zbo, Arthur, or Davis. He should've eaten all those guys, excepting maybe Arthur (who still hasn't been the same guy he was 2 years ago since his injury).

And 5 boards in 45 minutes? That's not just bad, that's terrible. That's be terrible for Rondo from the point. Then, you figure Garnett and anyone of the multitude of Sullinger or any other capable frontcourt players we could have including Bass weren't picking up the slack, Green should've fallen into at least 7 or 8 boards tonight.

Famous paraphrased line from Basketball Jesus: 'When my shot wasn't falling, Id try to concentrate on another part of my game to help out. Id work on my passing, or my rebounding to help get the win'

It's just frustrating. There was no reason to lose tonight, even with KG out.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ssspence on March 24, 2013, 12:38:19 AM
A slight problem is that, if Jeff isn't scoring he can't do much. He's a scorer, and when he doesn't score, he'll get a few rebounds, an assist or two, play some good defense and get a block or two, but all-in-all he's only a scorer. He scores, and when he doesn't he will get blasted.

So he better get scoring... 22ppg is viable, 24ppg would be nice. (not this year, of course)

Jeff Green's a scorer? 22ppg?

His career per minute numbers stink, even when he played next to Durant.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 24, 2013, 02:11:57 AM
I want you all to look at

1. The way Jeff Green is utilized. Doc likes a spaced floor. And when KG is not in especially, he's got Green just STANDING at the 3 point line. Why? Because you have a guy like BB that's not gonna take a super deep shot and if he's the guy taking shots, other teams will live with that. Teams are starting to slouch on AB. So the only threat is Paul Pierce who can slice you up from wherever, but preferably, midrange.
Jeff is just STANDING at the 3 point line and THAT'S WHERE HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE! Do you all not know his system? Doc's other wing player sits on the wing. And when JG is even playing the 4, he's that hybrid so that their 4 can be spaced out and AB/Bass/PP can attack if need be. Jeff's not getting a ton of rebounds being a perimeter shooter.

2. Jeff is almost never utlized in the pick and roll. Which is something I do not understand. The Celtics love the pick and pop, but don't pick and roll much with Rondo gone. A pick and roll with PP is DANGEROUS. But PP almost never passes it to Jeff.
The next time you watch a game, please notice how many times Jeff is open on the perimeter and in the pick and roll. They RARELY go to him.

3. Why are you all so hype on rebounds if Doc isn't? And I've been trying to get this for a while. Doc has easily said he doesn't care that much about rebounding. JG is getting between 4 and 6 a game. Jeff focuses more on boxing out. That's why guys like AB, PP can get boards, because the big guy is boxed out and someone can come in and get the rebound. Jeff is not 7 foot. Jeff (rarely) plays our Center.

Is there room for improvement? Heck yes. I think if Green gets a move or two, like a post shimmy to allow him to go right or something...he'd be cool. I mean...he needs something...sometimes he just has to stand there and wait to pass the ball because the right lane is cut off. That's not cool.

I think it's crazy the standards he's held to here. Could he be more consistent. Sure! But to call him invisible tonight...I'm not sure...And I'm almost thinking that's the way Doc wants him to play. Pull out there defender on the wing cuz he has to respect your shooting. Space the floor and make the shot if you get it.

I mean...had he sinked 2 of the late shot clock chucks he HAD to throw up, you all would be singing a different tune.

But whatever.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: indeedproceed on March 24, 2013, 02:28:33 AM
Quote
3. Why are you all so hype on rebounds if Doc isn't? And I've been trying to get this for a while. Doc has easily said he doesn't care that much about rebounding. JG is getting between 4 and 6 a game. Jeff focuses more on boxing out. That's why guys like AB, PP can get boards, because the big guy is boxed out and someone can come in and get the rebound. Jeff is not 7 foot. Jeff (rarely) plays our Center.

A) Doc doesn't care about offensive rebounds. He's lamented our poor defensive rebounding on more than one occasion.

B) If anyone of the starters played 45 minutes and had less than 5 rebounds, it's a bad night. Find the last time that happened. I can't think of a recent celtics starter including Ray Allen who could've played that many minutes and had less than 6 boards in 45 minutes. Now factor in Green who played the majority of his minutes in the frontcourt. It is a big deal.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 24, 2013, 02:42:15 AM
Quote
3. Why are you all so hype on rebounds if Doc isn't? And I've been trying to get this for a while. Doc has easily said he doesn't care that much about rebounding. JG is getting between 4 and 6 a game. Jeff focuses more on boxing out. That's why guys like AB, PP can get boards, because the big guy is boxed out and someone can come in and get the rebound. Jeff is not 7 foot. Jeff (rarely) plays our Center.

A) Doc doesn't care about offensive rebounds. He's lamented our poor defensive rebounding on more than one occasion.

B) If anyone of the starters played 45 minutes and had less than 5 rebounds, it's a bad night. Find the last time that happened. I can't think of a recent celtics starter including Ray Allen who could've played that many minutes and had less than 6 boards in 45 minutes. Now factor in Green who played the majority of his minutes in the frontcourt. It is a big deal.

It's not, or he would've been benched.

I think what none of us realize, is that Doc's system is hard to understand. This is why none of us get his rotations and why he plays the players he's playing. If JG was so invisible and doing the wrong thing, we've seen in the past Doc sit his guys.
I mean just the other night, Doc only gave Jeff 26 minutes because he missed a defensive assignment.

In order to get 45 minutes, maybe with the exception of 8 or so 'garbage time' minutes, he played a significant amount of the game. Why? Because he was correctly doing what he's been ASKED TO DO...IN THIS SYSTEM!!

Seriously. Jeff makes 2 or 3 more shots, guys could give a poop less about his 5 rebounds. AND JEFF BOXES OUT. JEFF IS NOT A REBOUNDER. NEVER HAS BEEN. Everyone knows it. So let's stop the JG rebound rhetoric. It makes 0 sense.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: indeedproceed on March 24, 2013, 02:49:24 AM
It makes zero sense that a guy who has Jeff Green's size strength and athleticism can't rebound, and can't manage to score more against an injury ridden grizzlies front line.

And as far as his minutes tonight, choosing the worst of two evils doesn't make either one a viable choice in an ideal world. Doc played the rotation he thought would give him the chance to win. Maybe of tonight had been one of the nights JG decided to show up, he would've been proven right.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 24, 2013, 03:03:47 AM
It makes zero sense that a guy who has Jeff Green's size strength and athleticism can't rebound, and can't manage to score more against an injury ridden grizzlies front line.

And as far as his minutes tonight, choosing the worst of two evils doesn't make either one a viable choice in an ideal world. Doc played the rotation he thought would give him the chance to win. Maybe of tonight had been one of the nights JG decided to show up, he would've been proven right.

I mean, I'm not sure what to tell you. You act like JG has averaged 7 or 8 rebounds in his career.

And who was injured?

I just disagree with the idea that JG didn't 'show up'...and this is what I'm saying. None of us have any idea of what Doc is asking of his guys. I'm telling you. The game against the Hornets, I think it was where JG only played 26 minutes. He was all aggressive in the first half. 13 points off like 4 or 5 shots.

Then he got sat. I have no clue. No one knows. But it seems like in the 2nd half he was asked to play differently. And Doc sat him when he couldn't.
The Miami game happened cuz he got hot early and well, I just think when a guy gets that hot, you got to feed him. Doc has also said he likes the mismatches.

The 4spot in the West is not the same as the 4spot in the East. We're talking Kevin Love vs. Shane Battier. We're talking Blake Griffin vs. David West. A Jeff Green can exploit his mismatch out in the Eastern Conference. But in the West it's a whole different ball game. He doesn't have as much as an advantage. and I HAVE heard Doc say that he wants JG to exploit his mismatches if he hasn't. If not, well that's just basketball. And you can only ask JG to play in the system. Which is to space the floor so there will be many opportunities.

Some of Jeff's other games have looked like 16/5 and everyone's ok with that...he didn't do anything but make more shots. And again, please watch the game and notice how many times JG is on an island at the 3 point line or on the roll. Never utilized.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: indeedproceed on March 24, 2013, 03:09:02 AM
Yeah but 16/5 in 30 minutes is a world of difference than 12/5 in 45 minutes. Especially when KG is out.

As far as playing within the system, I'm not going to fault you there. But even playing within the system with let's say 10 lost possessions as a decoy in the corner, if JG is playing as aggressive as he's supposed to, 12 points on 10 shots is still utterly terrible in 45 minutes.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 24, 2013, 03:17:15 AM
Yeah but 16/5 in 30 minutes is a world of difference than 12/5 in 45 minutes. Especially when KG is out.

As far as playing within the system, I'm not going to fault you there. But even playing within the system with let's say 10 lost possessions as a decoy in the corner, if JG is playing as aggressive as he's supposed to, 12 points on 10 shots is still utterly terrible in 45 minutes.

Oh fooey
at least 2-3 of those were last second heaves (I remember two distinctly)

And to make another point...I hate how Jeff has to get scraps. So we run 10 plays...5 for PP, 2 for Terry, 1 for Bass, AB chucks some and Jeff just has to make due with what he gets?

I think my biggest issue is EVERYONE knows that Jeff is an offensive player. He's great defensively (which could be a reason for so many minutes), but he can be a scorer. Why not CALL MORE PLAYS SPECIFICALLY FOR HIM??
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: moiso on March 24, 2013, 08:32:33 AM
Quote
3. Why are you all so hype on rebounds if Doc isn't? And I've been trying to get this for a while. Doc has easily said he doesn't care that much about rebounding. JG is getting between 4 and 6 a game. Jeff focuses more on boxing out. That's why guys like AB, PP can get boards, because the big guy is boxed out and someone can come in and get the rebound. Jeff is not 7 foot. Jeff (rarely) plays our Center.

A) Doc doesn't care about offensive rebounds. He's lamented our poor defensive rebounding on more than one occasion.

B) If anyone of the starters played 45 minutes and had less than 5 rebounds, it's a bad night. Find the last time that happened. I can't think of a recent celtics starter including Ray Allen who could've played that many minutes and had less than 6 boards in 45 minutes. Now factor in Green who played the majority of his minutes in the frontcourt. It is a big deal.

It's not, or he would've been benched.

I think what none of us realize, is that Doc's system is hard to understand. This is why none of us get his rotations and why he plays the players he's playing. If JG was so invisible and doing the wrong thing, we've seen in the past Doc sit his guys.
I mean just the other night, Doc only gave Jeff 26 minutes because he missed a defensive assignment.

In order to get 45 minutes, maybe with the exception of 8 or so 'garbage time' minutes, he played a significant amount of the game. Why? Because he was correctly doing what he's been ASKED TO DO...IN THIS SYSTEM!!

Seriously. Jeff makes 2 or 3 more shots, guys could give a poop less about his 5 rebounds. AND JEFF BOXES OUT. JEFF IS NOT A REBOUNDER. NEVER HAS BEEN. Everyone knows it. So let's stop the JG rebound rhetoric. It makes 0 sense.
Maybe Doc should ask the whole team to just box out.  Nobody has to actually grab the ball.  It worked for Green when he was boxing out Ryan Anderson, right?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on March 24, 2013, 09:30:30 AM
Quote
3. Why are you all so hype on rebounds if Doc isn't? And I've been trying to get this for a while. Doc has easily said he doesn't care that much about rebounding. JG is getting between 4 and 6 a game. Jeff focuses more on boxing out. That's why guys like AB, PP can get boards, because the big guy is boxed out and someone can come in and get the rebound. Jeff is not 7 foot. Jeff (rarely) plays our Center.

A) Doc doesn't care about offensive rebounds. He's lamented our poor defensive rebounding on more than one occasion.

B) If anyone of the starters played 45 minutes and had less than 5 rebounds, it's a bad night. Find the last time that happened. I can't think of a recent celtics starter including Ray Allen who could've played that many minutes and had less than 6 boards in 45 minutes. Now factor in Green who played the majority of his minutes in the frontcourt. It is a big deal.

It's not, or he would've been benched.

I think what none of us realize, is that Doc's system is hard to understand. This is why none of us get his rotations and why he plays the players he's playing. If JG was so invisible and doing the wrong thing, we've seen in the past Doc sit his guys.
I mean just the other night, Doc only gave Jeff 26 minutes because he missed a defensive assignment.

In order to get 45 minutes, maybe with the exception of 8 or so 'garbage time' minutes, he played a significant amount of the game. Why? Because he was correctly doing what he's been ASKED TO DO...IN THIS SYSTEM!!

Seriously. Jeff makes 2 or 3 more shots, guys could give a poop less about his 5 rebounds. AND JEFF BOXES OUT. JEFF IS NOT A REBOUNDER. NEVER HAS BEEN. Everyone knows it. So let's stop the JG rebound rhetoric. It makes 0 sense.

  That depends on who else is available to play those minutes and whether those players are a) good and b) doing exactly what Doc wants all the time. It would also have to be something correctable.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on March 24, 2013, 09:54:15 AM
Why is everyone so shocked with Green's play?  This has happened before.  This is just Green's inconsistency showing up again.  It was probably forgotten because of his extended stretch of good play.

Roy (I think) made a post late in the 2012 calendar year about how Green consistently had two great games and then two terrible games afterward.  He always did it.

Now that Green's had about two months worth of excellent basketball, he'd been due to have a stretch of four or five bad games.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 24, 2013, 10:22:43 AM
Why is everyone so shocked with Green's play?  This has happened before.  This is just Green's inconsistency showing up again.  It was probably forgotten because of his extended stretch of good play.

Roy (I think) made a post late in the 2012 calendar year about how Green consistently had two great games and then two terrible games afterward.  He always did it.

Now that Green's had about two months worth of excellent basketball, he'd been due to have a stretch of four or five bad games.

Let's artificially time his good games to be in the playoffs then ;)
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on March 24, 2013, 10:49:33 AM
I want you all to look at

1. The way Jeff Green is utilized. Doc likes a spaced floor. And when KG is not in especially, he's got Green just STANDING at the 3 point line. Why? Because you have a guy like BB that's not gonna take a super deep shot and if he's the guy taking shots, other teams will live with that. Teams are starting to slouch on AB. So the only threat is Paul Pierce who can slice you up from wherever, but preferably, midrange.
Jeff is just STANDING at the 3 point line and THAT'S WHERE HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE! Do you all not know his system? Doc's other wing player sits on the wing. And when JG is even playing the 4, he's that hybrid so that their 4 can be spaced out and AB/Bass/PP can attack if need be. Jeff's not getting a ton of rebounds being a perimeter shooter.

2. Jeff is almost never utlized in the pick and roll. Which is something I do not understand. The Celtics love the pick and pop, but don't pick and roll much with Rondo gone. A pick and roll with PP is DANGEROUS. But PP almost never passes it to Jeff.
The next time you watch a game, please notice how many times Jeff is open on the perimeter and in the pick and roll. They RARELY go to him.

3. Why are you all so hype on rebounds if Doc isn't? And I've been trying to get this for a while. Doc has easily said he doesn't care that much about rebounding. JG is getting between 4 and 6 a game. Jeff focuses more on boxing out. That's why guys like AB, PP can get boards, because the big guy is boxed out and someone can come in and get the rebound. Jeff is not 7 foot. Jeff (rarely) plays our Center.

Is there room for improvement? Heck yes. I think if Green gets a move or two, like a post shimmy to allow him to go right or something...he'd be cool. I mean...he needs something...sometimes he just has to stand there and wait to pass the ball because the right lane is cut off. That's not cool.

I think it's crazy the standards he's held to here. Could he be more consistent. Sure! But to call him invisible tonight...I'm not sure...And I'm almost thinking that's the way Doc wants him to play. Pull out there defender on the wing cuz he has to respect your shooting. Space the floor and make the shot if you get it.

I mean...had he sinked 2 of the late shot clock chucks he HAD to throw up, you all would be singing a different tune.

But whatever.
Enough with how Doc utilizes Green. That's just an excuse.

Did PJ Carlesimo not use him properly? Did Scott Brooks not use him properly? Now Doc Rivers doesn't use him properly?

Please. Stop. We are talking about three extremely good to great coaches. Coaches that know extraordinary basketball talent and utilize that talent when they have it. Otherwise, you are just a player that has to play a role.

Jeff Green is NOT an extraordinary talent. He's a good role playing player that needs to do what his coaches tell him to do. Doc has spoken about Green's lack of rebounding as being a concern this year already. Rebounding might be the most important thing you can do on a court beside score or play defense. That Green rebounds at times beyond poorly is a huge deal for a 6'9" player.

Last night just cemented my opinion of Green. He almost had me fooled there for a month or more but his disappearing act has returned (fourth quarter versus Miami, 3 quarters against New Orleans, then the Dallas and Memphis games). He's a very good role playing bench player that can score and occasionally play some defense, when he feels like it. But he's also prone to not showing up and never expect him to get a rebound. If he does, great, if not, at least you weren't counting on it.

I'm done talking about Green with the Green core of fans here that just see his potential and talk about it like its his reality. He's 26 and will be 27 before next season. If he hasn't turned into a special player yet, at this point, he never will.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 24, 2013, 01:24:11 PM
I want you all to look at

1. The way Jeff Green is utilized. Doc likes a spaced floor. And when KG is not in especially, he's got Green just STANDING at the 3 point line. Why? Because you have a guy like BB that's not gonna take a super deep shot and if he's the guy taking shots, other teams will live with that. Teams are starting to slouch on AB. So the only threat is Paul Pierce who can slice you up from wherever, but preferably, midrange.
Jeff is just STANDING at the 3 point line and THAT'S WHERE HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE! Do you all not know his system? Doc's other wing player sits on the wing. And when JG is even playing the 4, he's that hybrid so that their 4 can be spaced out and AB/Bass/PP can attack if need be. Jeff's not getting a ton of rebounds being a perimeter shooter.

2. Jeff is almost never utlized in the pick and roll. Which is something I do not understand. The Celtics love the pick and pop, but don't pick and roll much with Rondo gone. A pick and roll with PP is DANGEROUS. But PP almost never passes it to Jeff.
The next time you watch a game, please notice how many times Jeff is open on the perimeter and in the pick and roll. They RARELY go to him.

3. Why are you all so hype on rebounds if Doc isn't? And I've been trying to get this for a while. Doc has easily said he doesn't care that much about rebounding. JG is getting between 4 and 6 a game. Jeff focuses more on boxing out. That's why guys like AB, PP can get boards, because the big guy is boxed out and someone can come in and get the rebound. Jeff is not 7 foot. Jeff (rarely) plays our Center.

Is there room for improvement? Heck yes. I think if Green gets a move or two, like a post shimmy to allow him to go right or something...he'd be cool. I mean...he needs something...sometimes he just has to stand there and wait to pass the ball because the right lane is cut off. That's not cool.

I think it's crazy the standards he's held to here. Could he be more consistent. Sure! But to call him invisible tonight...I'm not sure...And I'm almost thinking that's the way Doc wants him to play. Pull out there defender on the wing cuz he has to respect your shooting. Space the floor and make the shot if you get it.

I mean...had he sinked 2 of the late shot clock chucks he HAD to throw up, you all would be singing a different tune.

But whatever.
Enough with how Doc utilizes Green. That's just an excuse.

Did PJ Carlesimo not use him properly? Did Scott Brooks not use him properly? Now Doc Rivers doesn't use him properly?

Please. Stop. We are talking about three extremely good to great coaches. Coaches that know extraordinary basketball talent and utilize that talent when they have it. Otherwise, you are just a player that has to play a role.

Jeff Green is NOT an extraordinary talent. He's a good role playing player that needs to do what his coaches tell him to do. Doc has spoken about Green's lack of rebounding as being a concern this year already. Rebounding might be the most important thing you can do on a court beside score or play defense. That Green rebounds at times beyond poorly is a huge deal for a 6'9" player.

Last night just cemented my opinion of Green. He almost had me fooled there for a month or more but his disappearing act has returned (fourth quarter versus Miami, 3 quarters against New Orleans, then the Dallas and Memphis games). He's a very good role playing bench player that can score and occasionally play some defense, when he feels like it. But he's also prone to not showing up and never expect him to get a rebound. If he does, great, if not, at least you weren't counting on it.

I'm done talking about Green with the Green core of fans here that just see his potential and talk about it like its his reality. He's 26 and will be 27 before next season. If he hasn't turned into a special player yet, at this point, he never will.

Well, I mean, it's people like yourself who want the world of Green but pay 0 attention to what's going on. You just look at the box score. Unfortunately, as a JG fan, I pay attention to everything he does.

I've pointed out some things he's bad at. I know rebounding is one of them but he's always been terrible at rebounding. He knows it and said he'd work on it but he's never been a rebounder. Just like Tony Allen has never been a jump shooter. He'll work on it. Some days he'll be great...others...nawl. So the rebounding convo is just kind of moot, imo.

Then you say things like why isn't he consistent. HE'S NOT BEING USED IN HIS ROLE CONSISTENTLY, HE'S NOT ON THE FLOOR IN CONSISTENT UNITS, AND HE'S JUST NOW PLAYING CONSISTENT MINUTES!

Jeff needs to work on his consistency. Yes. But between heart surgery, 9 new guys, I'm not asking for a lot.

And riddle me this. Doc calls specific plays for KG and PP to get them going. Doc KNOWS Jeff needs to get going quick as well, so why doesn't he ever call Jeff's number? Esp when Jeff is #3 offensively, here? That makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: moiso on March 24, 2013, 02:18:37 PM
I want you all to look at

1. The way Jeff Green is utilized. Doc likes a spaced floor. And when KG is not in especially, he's got Green just STANDING at the 3 point line. Why? Because you have a guy like BB that's not gonna take a super deep shot and if he's the guy taking shots, other teams will live with that. Teams are starting to slouch on AB. So the only threat is Paul Pierce who can slice you up from wherever, but preferably, midrange.
Jeff is just STANDING at the 3 point line and THAT'S WHERE HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE! Do you all not know his system? Doc's other wing player sits on the wing. And when JG is even playing the 4, he's that hybrid so that their 4 can be spaced out and AB/Bass/PP can attack if need be. Jeff's not getting a ton of rebounds being a perimeter shooter.

2. Jeff is almost never utlized in the pick and roll. Which is something I do not understand. The Celtics love the pick and pop, but don't pick and roll much with Rondo gone. A pick and roll with PP is DANGEROUS. But PP almost never passes it to Jeff.
The next time you watch a game, please notice how many times Jeff is open on the perimeter and in the pick and roll. They RARELY go to him.

3. Why are you all so hype on rebounds if Doc isn't? And I've been trying to get this for a while. Doc has easily said he doesn't care that much about rebounding. JG is getting between 4 and 6 a game. Jeff focuses more on boxing out. That's why guys like AB, PP can get boards, because the big guy is boxed out and someone can come in and get the rebound. Jeff is not 7 foot. Jeff (rarely) plays our Center.

Is there room for improvement? Heck yes. I think if Green gets a move or two, like a post shimmy to allow him to go right or something...he'd be cool. I mean...he needs something...sometimes he just has to stand there and wait to pass the ball because the right lane is cut off. That's not cool.

I think it's crazy the standards he's held to here. Could he be more consistent. Sure! But to call him invisible tonight...I'm not sure...And I'm almost thinking that's the way Doc wants him to play. Pull out there defender on the wing cuz he has to respect your shooting. Space the floor and make the shot if you get it.

I mean...had he sinked 2 of the late shot clock chucks he HAD to throw up, you all would be singing a different tune.

But whatever.
Enough with how Doc utilizes Green. That's just an excuse.

Did PJ Carlesimo not use him properly? Did Scott Brooks not use him properly? Now Doc Rivers doesn't use him properly?

Please. Stop. We are talking about three extremely good to great coaches. Coaches that know extraordinary basketball talent and utilize that talent when they have it. Otherwise, you are just a player that has to play a role.

Jeff Green is NOT an extraordinary talent. He's a good role playing player that needs to do what his coaches tell him to do. Doc has spoken about Green's lack of rebounding as being a concern this year already. Rebounding might be the most important thing you can do on a court beside score or play defense. That Green rebounds at times beyond poorly is a huge deal for a 6'9" player.

Last night just cemented my opinion of Green. He almost had me fooled there for a month or more but his disappearing act has returned (fourth quarter versus Miami, 3 quarters against New Orleans, then the Dallas and Memphis games). He's a very good role playing bench player that can score and occasionally play some defense, when he feels like it. But he's also prone to not showing up and never expect him to get a rebound. If he does, great, if not, at least you weren't counting on it.

I'm done talking about Green with the Green core of fans here that just see his potential and talk about it like its his reality. He's 26 and will be 27 before next season. If he hasn't turned into a special player yet, at this point, he never will.

Well, I mean, it's people like yourself who want the world of Green but pay 0 attention to what's going on. You just look at the box score. Unfortunately, as a JG fan, I pay attention to everything he does.

I've pointed out some things he's bad at. I know rebounding is one of them but he's always been terrible at rebounding. He knows it and said he'd work on it but he's never been a rebounder. Just like Tony Allen has never been a jump shooter. He'll work on it. Some days he'll be great...others...nawl. So the rebounding convo is just kind of moot, imo.

Then you say things like why isn't he consistent. HE'S NOT BEING USED IN HIS ROLE CONSISTENTLY, HE'S NOT ON THE FLOOR IN CONSISTENT UNITS, AND HE'S JUST NOW PLAYING CONSISTENT MINUTES!

Jeff needs to work on his consistency. Yes. But between heart surgery, 9 new guys, I'm not asking for a lot.

And riddle me this. Doc calls specific plays for KG and PP to get them going. Doc KNOWS Jeff needs to get going quick as well, so why doesn't he ever call Jeff's number? Esp when Jeff is #3 offensively, here? That makes no sense to me.
Pierce and KG have actual moves.  Green either shoots, or drives in a straight line to the rim.  That's it.  If you call a play for that, the defense is probably going to stop him.  Green is great at taking advantage of what the defense gives him.  He's not good at forcing the action against a defense that is ready for him.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 24, 2013, 02:24:01 PM
I want you all to look at

1. The way Jeff Green is utilized. Doc likes a spaced floor. And when KG is not in especially, he's got Green just STANDING at the 3 point line. Why? Because you have a guy like BB that's not gonna take a super deep shot and if he's the guy taking shots, other teams will live with that. Teams are starting to slouch on AB. So the only threat is Paul Pierce who can slice you up from wherever, but preferably, midrange.
Jeff is just STANDING at the 3 point line and THAT'S WHERE HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE! Do you all not know his system? Doc's other wing player sits on the wing. And when JG is even playing the 4, he's that hybrid so that their 4 can be spaced out and AB/Bass/PP can attack if need be. Jeff's not getting a ton of rebounds being a perimeter shooter.

2. Jeff is almost never utlized in the pick and roll. Which is something I do not understand. The Celtics love the pick and pop, but don't pick and roll much with Rondo gone. A pick and roll with PP is DANGEROUS. But PP almost never passes it to Jeff.
The next time you watch a game, please notice how many times Jeff is open on the perimeter and in the pick and roll. They RARELY go to him.

3. Why are you all so hype on rebounds if Doc isn't? And I've been trying to get this for a while. Doc has easily said he doesn't care that much about rebounding. JG is getting between 4 and 6 a game. Jeff focuses more on boxing out. That's why guys like AB, PP can get boards, because the big guy is boxed out and someone can come in and get the rebound. Jeff is not 7 foot. Jeff (rarely) plays our Center.

Is there room for improvement? Heck yes. I think if Green gets a move or two, like a post shimmy to allow him to go right or something...he'd be cool. I mean...he needs something...sometimes he just has to stand there and wait to pass the ball because the right lane is cut off. That's not cool.

I think it's crazy the standards he's held to here. Could he be more consistent. Sure! But to call him invisible tonight...I'm not sure...And I'm almost thinking that's the way Doc wants him to play. Pull out there defender on the wing cuz he has to respect your shooting. Space the floor and make the shot if you get it.

I mean...had he sinked 2 of the late shot clock chucks he HAD to throw up, you all would be singing a different tune.

But whatever.
Enough with how Doc utilizes Green. That's just an excuse.

Did PJ Carlesimo not use him properly? Did Scott Brooks not use him properly? Now Doc Rivers doesn't use him properly?

Please. Stop. We are talking about three extremely good to great coaches. Coaches that know extraordinary basketball talent and utilize that talent when they have it. Otherwise, you are just a player that has to play a role.

Jeff Green is NOT an extraordinary talent. He's a good role playing player that needs to do what his coaches tell him to do. Doc has spoken about Green's lack of rebounding as being a concern this year already. Rebounding might be the most important thing you can do on a court beside score or play defense. That Green rebounds at times beyond poorly is a huge deal for a 6'9" player.

Last night just cemented my opinion of Green. He almost had me fooled there for a month or more but his disappearing act has returned (fourth quarter versus Miami, 3 quarters against New Orleans, then the Dallas and Memphis games). He's a very good role playing bench player that can score and occasionally play some defense, when he feels like it. But he's also prone to not showing up and never expect him to get a rebound. If he does, great, if not, at least you weren't counting on it.

I'm done talking about Green with the Green core of fans here that just see his potential and talk about it like its his reality. He's 26 and will be 27 before next season. If he hasn't turned into a special player yet, at this point, he never will.

Well, I mean, it's people like yourself who want the world of Green but pay 0 attention to what's going on. You just look at the box score. Unfortunately, as a JG fan, I pay attention to everything he does.

I've pointed out some things he's bad at. I know rebounding is one of them but he's always been terrible at rebounding. He knows it and said he'd work on it but he's never been a rebounder. Just like Tony Allen has never been a jump shooter. He'll work on it. Some days he'll be great...others...nawl. So the rebounding convo is just kind of moot, imo.

Then you say things like why isn't he consistent. HE'S NOT BEING USED IN HIS ROLE CONSISTENTLY, HE'S NOT ON THE FLOOR IN CONSISTENT UNITS, AND HE'S JUST NOW PLAYING CONSISTENT MINUTES!

Jeff needs to work on his consistency. Yes. But between heart surgery, 9 new guys, I'm not asking for a lot.

And riddle me this. Doc calls specific plays for KG and PP to get them going. Doc KNOWS Jeff needs to get going quick as well, so why doesn't he ever call Jeff's number? Esp when Jeff is #3 offensively, here? That makes no sense to me.
Pierce and KG have actual moves.  Green either shoots, or drives in a straight line to the rim.  That's it.  If you call a play for that, the defense is probably going to stop him.  Green is great at taking advantage of what the defense gives him.  He's not good at forcing the action against a defense that is ready for him.

no he doesn't have any moves. i've already said that.

but if you can call plays to open up wide open shots for guys like kg, pp and even bass, why can't you do it for green who's hitting 47% of his spot up jumpers? why can't you create a back door play where green is 70+% on cutting?

I'm talking plays man. not isos. PLAYS
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: badshar on March 24, 2013, 03:03:57 PM
I somewhat agree with moiso.

Green either shoots it, drives straight to the rim where he either loses the ball, gets fouled or gets blocked, or he passes the ball away.

The problem is, he does many of the things that elite small forwards (Carmelo, LeBron, Durant, Pierce) do when driving, except he doesn't force it. It seems he just takes what defense gives him and adjusts his game accordingly, instead of forcing it and making the defense adjust. You look at LeBron, Pierce, Carmelo, Durant, they drive strongly and finish strongly. The least of their expectation if getting fouled. They don't have "losing the ball" in their dictionary of possibilities.

If you look at him when he doesn't have the ball, he has a pretty bad off-ball movement. He literally just stands at the 3 point line doing nothing.

If he demands the ball by approaching the ball handler and raising his hand for the ball, many times the person with the ball stops executing the current play and gives the ball to Green, only for Green to dribble the ball twice or thrice and give it back to the handler.

Also, is he scared to dunk? Does he not want to dunk to preserve his body? Does he not dunk because of some medical reason? So many times when he drives, he is so close to the rim that he can just simply dunk it and get the point, instead, he goes for a layup which sometimes goes and sometimes doesn't. No one is asking for a fancy between-the-leg-360-behind-the-back-double-clutch-turnaround dunk. Just do a simple double hand dunk to get the point. Then again, if not doing it helps him preserve his body and keep him and his legs healthy for the playoffs, then I am fine with it.

Lastly, before people on this forum start telling me that I criticize green for everything and I am one of those stupid critics and all, let me tell you all one thing: I was one of those extremely few people in the entire Celtics fan base that kept believing in Green in the beginning of the season, when he was just awful. I was one of those people that was willing to give Green time due to the fact that he just came back from a huge surgery as well as a season without basketball.
I kept believing in him until the all-star break but now I am starting to lose it. Let's be real. This team is designed to get serious help from its bench in order to get anything done this season. Green's role and contract means he has to do the starter's work while coming off the bench. If he keeps playing this inconsistent, we won't be able to do anything. I don't care whether he becomes a Top 5 SF or not, he is on this team to help us, not become a top 5 sf. That is a bonus if he becomes that good.

I am just hoping that he can do this consistently in the playoffs.

In my opinion, to be successful, we need following output in terms of scoring from these players:

Paul Pierce - ~20 points
Kevin Garnett - ~18 points (his work on defense already does enough)
Jeff Green - ~18 points
Jason Terry - ~12 points
Jordan Crawford - ~12 points
Courtney Lee - ~12 points
Brandon Bass - ~12 points
Avery Bradley - ~12 points
Chris Wilcox - ~8 points
Terrence Williams - ~5 points
DJ White - ~4 points
Shavlik Randolph - ~4 points

This totals to 137 points and if we can score somewhere around this regularly in the playoffs as well as play good defense, I GUARANTEE YOU ALL that we WIN every game.

Now, I agree that not everyone will play, because Doc most likely still won't play the young guys, despite them showing good signs in the limited playing time. The best thing that can happen is if Doc plays them.

Also, this is just my opinion. If you think otherwise, you are more than welcome to share it.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: clover on March 24, 2013, 03:59:17 PM
I somewhat agree with moiso.

Green either shoots it, drives straight to the rim where he either loses the ball, gets fouled or gets blocked, or he passes the ball away.

The problem is, he does many of the things that elite small forwards (Carmelo, LeBron, Durant, Pierce) do when driving, except he doesn't force it. It seems he just takes what defense gives him and adjusts his game accordingly, instead of forcing it and making the defense adjust. You look at LeBron, Pierce, Carmelo, Durant, they drive strongly and finish strongly. The least of their expectation if getting fouled. They don't have "losing the ball" in their dictionary of possibilities.

If you look at him when he doesn't have the ball, he has a pretty bad off-ball movement. He literally just stands at the 3 point line doing nothing.

If he demands the ball by approaching the ball handler and raising his hand for the ball, many times the person with the ball stops executing the current play and gives the ball to Green, only for Green to dribble the ball twice or thrice and give it back to the handler.

Also, is he scared to dunk? Does he not want to dunk to preserve his body? Does he not dunk because of some medical reason? So many times when he drives, he is so close to the rim that he can just simply dunk it and get the point, instead, he goes for a layup which sometimes goes and sometimes doesn't. No one is asking for a fancy between-the-leg-360-behind-the-back-double-clutch-turnaround dunk. Just do a simple double hand dunk to get the point. Then again, if not doing it helps him preserve his body and keep him and his legs healthy for the playoffs, then I am fine with it.

Lastly, before people on this forum start telling me that I criticize green for everything and I am one of those stupid critics and all, let me tell you all one thing: I was one of those extremely few people in the entire Celtics fan base that kept believing in Green in the beginning of the season, when he was just awful. I was one of those people that was willing to give Green time due to the fact that he just came back from a huge surgery as well as a season without basketball.
I kept believing in him until the all-star break but now I am starting to lose it. Let's be real. This team is designed to get serious help from its bench in order to get anything done this season. Green's role and contract means he has to do the starter's work while coming off the bench. If he keeps playing this inconsistent, we won't be able to do anything. I don't care whether he becomes a Top 5 SF or not, he is on this team to help us, not become a top 5 sf. That is a bonus if he becomes that good.

I am just hoping that he can do this consistently in the playoffs.

In my opinion, to be successful, we need following output in terms of scoring from these players:

Paul Pierce - ~20 points
Kevin Garnett - ~18 points (his work on defense already does enough)
Jeff Green - ~18 points
Jason Terry - ~12 points
Jordan Crawford - ~12 points
Courtney Lee - ~12 points
Brandon Bass - ~12 points
Avery Bradley - ~12 points
Chris Wilcox - ~8 points
Terrence Williams - ~5 points
DJ White - ~4 points
Shavlik Randolph - ~4 points

This totals to 137 points and if we can score somewhere around this regularly in the playoffs as well as play good defense, I GUARANTEE YOU ALL that we WIN every game.

Now, I agree that not everyone will play, because Doc most likely still won't play the young guys, despite them showing good signs in the limited playing time. The best thing that can happen is if Doc plays them.

Also, this is just my opinion. If you think otherwise, you are more than welcome to share it.

Ha ha--and how many minutes is each of those guys going to have to play to hit their numbers?  We'll have to hope for triple-overtime every game.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Atzar on March 24, 2013, 04:02:23 PM
If we score 137 points and play good defense every game, we'll win! 

Why didn't I think of that?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: badshar on March 24, 2013, 04:12:41 PM
Good job mocking me, but unsurprisingly, you all missed the point. The point is not to score 137 points a game.

The point is to consistently benefit us in some way. Whether that is through scoring (as demonstrated previously) or through other means.

Also, I think some of you fail to understand what "~" means in "~20 points." It doesn't mean you have to score 20 points, it means around AROUND 20 points. 18,19,20,21,22. Somewhere around that.

Also, for everyone to produce, we don't need to go into triple-overtime every game. Let's be honest, our players take incredibly stupid shots all the time. Perhaps if we stopped forcing every singly shot, we wouldn't go on scoring droughts.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 29, 2013, 10:09:16 PM
No reason to doubt any longer! Now we see he can be a first-option on offense too! If only the calls went his ways tonight...

But he's playing at a way better deal than Gay or Josh Smith. Definitely fair value, and I look at the posters who said we overpaid, with nothing but surprise.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 30, 2013, 02:20:44 PM
yea. hopefully Rondo is paying attention to what the guy can do and will trust him now

I honestly think if we keep a core of Rondo/JG/AB/Sully we're really not as bad off as people think, esp if RR develops his jumper some more and JG develops his moves. I think we need a good big that rebounds and in the east, at the very least we are an 8 seed.

now if PP/KG stay, with JGs development and such, I really think we could have a shot, health permitting. And I'm starting to really like this JG at the 3/PP at the 2 lineup. I was haphazard cuz I didn't think Paul could keep up, but he's making it work.

As a starter, Jeff is averaging 21 points, and that's really thanks to a couple flat performances where he didn't do much. I think as a consistent start, we will see that number increase. He made 27 and 31 look EASY. As I continue to say, he needs a guy to feed him the ball. If he has that, we're good.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 30, 2013, 02:26:27 PM
I, for one, won't be surprised when he averages 25 a game.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Josh88 on March 30, 2013, 03:17:49 PM
I, for one, won't be surprised when he averages 25 a game.

Care to put some money on that?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 30, 2013, 05:15:48 PM
I, for one, won't be surprised when he averages 25 a game.

Care to put some money on that?
[/quote

I think it's a possibility if he continues to start
I know you all want to take away from his avgs (Suns suck, Hawks barely played D...whatever)...every game counts in the NBA. Right now he's avging 21 points, thanks to a 43 point explosion against our reigning champs

If he starts and continues to be #2 or #3 for offense, he can. It may not be here, but I think he could. Do you see how easy he makes it look? He just bombards his way through the paint. And you have to respect his jumper, which seemed to be wet last night (I didn't watch, just saw highlights).
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Nerf DPOY on March 30, 2013, 05:30:32 PM
There's only 5 guys in the league averaging 25 points or better a game. 25 ppg is kind of an alpha-dog stat, a trait Green doesn't really seem to possess.

Forgive me if this has been stated over and over in this epic thread, but I see Green as more of a Deng like player with better going to the basket skills. Not to stray but I'm more interested in seeing how he and Rondo co-exist next year. Green obviously thrives when having the ball more and I have faith they can adjust they're games accordingly. And to stray even more I think Bradley fits perfectly next to them being he seems to be at his best scoring off the ball in various ways and focusing on D.

Synergy!!!

Edit: First part in response to the 25 ppg dreams. Looks dumb now that I didn't quote it....
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 30, 2013, 05:38:21 PM
There's only 5 guys in the league averaging 25 points or better a game. 25 ppg is kind of an alpha-dog stat, a trait Green doesn't really seem to possess.

Forgive me if this has been stated over and over in this epic thread, but I see Green as more of a Deng like player with better going to the basket skills. Not to stray but I'm more interested in seeing how he and Rondo co-exist next year. Green obviously thrives when having the ball more and I have faith they can adjust they're games accordingly. And to stray even more I think Bradley fits perfectly next to them being he seems to be at his best scoring off the ball in various ways and focusing on D.

Synergy!!!

Edit: First part in response to the 25 ppg dreams. Looks dumb now that I didn't quote it....

I'm not sure if we can say it's not a trait he has.
I mean he has games with 31, 43, and 27 last night. he looked like the Alpha dog in those games.
I think it's a trait he has, but one I'm not sure he knows how to cultivate. I think if Doc says he wants that, then he gives it. Idk if he will go out there every night and do it.

That's not to say that this whole thing he's got going on isn't building his confidence. If he starts and Doc kind of loosens the reigns, I don't see how it can't happen.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Nerf DPOY on March 30, 2013, 05:49:48 PM
There's only 5 guys in the league averaging 25 points or better a game. 25 ppg is kind of an alpha-dog stat, a trait Green doesn't really seem to possess.

Forgive me if this has been stated over and over in this epic thread, but I see Green as more of a Deng like player with better going to the basket skills. Not to stray but I'm more interested in seeing how he and Rondo co-exist next year. Green obviously thrives when having the ball more and I have faith they can adjust they're games accordingly. And to stray even more I think Bradley fits perfectly next to them being he seems to be at his best scoring off the ball in various ways and focusing on D.

Synergy!!!

Edit: First part in response to the 25 ppg dreams. Looks dumb now that I didn't quote it....

I'm not sure if we can say it's not a trait he has.
I mean he has games with 31, 43, and 27 last night. he looked like the Alpha dog in those games.
I think it's a trait he has, but one I'm not sure he knows how to cultivate. I think if Doc says he wants that, then he gives it. Idk if he will go out there every night and do it.

That's not to say that this whole thing he's got going on isn't building his confidence. If he starts and Doc kind of loosens the reigns, I don't see how it can't happen.

Well I don't doubt that playing next to Westbrook and Durant could swallow one's personality.....heck Westbrook alone...Then you factor in entering the season(after a year off) less than a year removed from heart surgery playing on a team that seemed to be forcing Rondo running every play and it remains cloudy what kind of player he can really be.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Josh88 on March 30, 2013, 06:44:19 PM
Tony Delk scored 53 points in a game once, the 43 point game doesn't mean much of anything. His career scoring average is 13.5, after 5 years in the league, excluding last season. I would love someone to find me a single NBA player who averaged over 30 mpg in their first five seasons, and increased their scoring average by 12 ppg in their sixth season. It's unheard of.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 30, 2013, 06:44:41 PM
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=63912.0

:)
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: nickagneta on March 30, 2013, 07:29:26 PM
Jeff Green will NEVER average 25 points per game for an entire season. It won't happen. He's not that good.

Jeff Green in 387 career regular season games has scored more than 25 points in a game a whole 16 times(give or take). Are we to suddenly believe that a 6 year vet is suddenly going to go from scoring more than 25 points in a game 4% of the time to averaging 25PPG for a whole season?

Let's get real.

Jeff is having a good stretch. He has had good individual stretches before, but never the type of production to think he could be a 25 PPG performer. He's just not that good of a shooter or pure scorer to be able to do that. You have to be getting to the free throw line 8-10 times a game to average 25 PPG. Jeff doesn't have that in him.

He's probably playing his maximum best at about 18-19 PPG with 4 RPG and 3 APG. But expect him to put in about 36-38 MPG to do that.

And here's the other thing. Is he a numbers guy or team guy? Is he someone who will most likely only maximize his numbers on a bad or very mediocre team and tend to fall to the background on good to great teams? I think this is still very much in question.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Bingbangbarros on March 30, 2013, 08:13:08 PM
"He's probably playing his maximum best at about 18-19 PPG with 4 RPG and 3 APG. But expect him to put in about 36-38 MPG to do that."

I agree he's definitely not a 25ppg scorer. But he did average 16.5 ppg playing with KD and Westbrook which is pretty impressive. He seemed to take alot of jumpers and did not benefit from many easy buckets. With Rondo and a bigger role on this team I can envision him topping out at 20ppg if given the minutes. And while I'm always on him for his weak rebounding, he's shown that he can average over 6rpg as he did that on OKC for 2 years so that 4 is very low in my opinion. Hopefully he can get back to at least 6 rpg.


Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 30, 2013, 10:27:45 PM
Well, I'll take from our extremely small sample size to try to make a point. In his first start without KG, against one of the worst teams in the league, Jeff shot 11/14, an uncommon stat line, for 31 points. In his second start, he scored just 14 points in a total blowout to the Bobcats, when he shot just 4-for-11. His third start was yet again against Charlotte, but this time it was a blowout for US; he scored just 10 points (5-9, 0-1 from three) while snagging five boards and giving four assists. He started again the next game where he exploded for 43 points in our loss to Miami, where he basically just made all his layups. He played off the bench for two games until KG got injured, so he came in in the Memphis game, playing a whopping 45 minutes... shooting 4-for-10 and 1-for-4 from three point land, with just 12 points (5 rebounds, 4 assists). The next game against the Knicks, he built off his performance with his first double-double of the season (19/10) albeit in a losing effort. He had 6 assists. The next game, he scored 21 against Cleveland, but despite shooting just 6-for-17 until the final shot, the team went to him for his second game winner of the year. (I suppose clutch shooters are those who can score when their team needs them most, whether they're shooting 0-10 or 10-10) Last game against Atlanta, our team really put trust into him as he took 20 field goals (second only to the Miami game with 21 FGAs)... despite not getting the calls he probably should have gotten, he shot an impressive 11-20, along with three 3-pointers for a total of 27 points.

For argument's sake, I'd like to only take into consideration his games thus far in the second half of the season. Throughout his career, he has outplayed his first-half stats in the second-half for each season, for whatever reason. In addition, he was returning from his heart surgery, definitely complicating his return. Finally, like most players on this team, he was having trouble adjusting while "consistently being inconsistent." So, I'll start by looking at his second-half stats (anything from game 42 onwards).

His points-per-FG average is 1.38 (definitely above average). He's averaging 40.7% on his three point attempts (definitely above average), thus his points-per-3PA is 1.22 (decent). His two-point field goal percentage is a pretty average 33.9% (comparing among starting small-forwards) and he's shooting an above career-average 84.4% from the charity stripe. All-in-all, these are at- or above-average stats for any small forward, and would make him a starting SF on every team in the league except maybe Miami, OKC, New York, Boston, Toronto, Indiana and Portland. What's bad is, he averages just 4.31RPG (pretty bad) in 31.2 minutes per game (so basically about 5 rebounds per 36 minutes), and 0.59ORPG (NOT above-average). In this period, Boston has been a ho-hum 18-14.

I'd say Jeff Green doesn't have anything extremely special in his stats... he has a 0.82 TO/A ratio (not really relevant), an impressive 1.25BPG that would put him tops on our team, he commits 2.5 fouls a game (average) and gets 0.75 steals per game (not relevant). That would rank him somewhere in the second tier of NBA small forwards, and likely not a top-5 SF in anyone's book, ever. But in addition to this, his defense has improved- it's been otherworldly at times against players like LeBron and a Synergy statistic ranks him a top-10 defender in the league (must be flawed, because that's impossible by anyone's standards). His basketball IQ has been underrated by nearly everyone, in my opinion, and he's one of the smartest players on our team for sure (his Georgetown coach once called him the smartest player he's ever coached). His arms are long and he can block drives and threes, which helps the team. His strides are long and he's a decent dunker who can get to the rack when he wants to. His corner three is developed and he's hitting it with regularity. His post moves are undeveloped, but his hook shot is to be trusted, and he's an above-average isolation player. He's tall for a small forward, which allows him to post up on smaller guys, while he's quicker than most power forwards, which allows him to attack. His handles are decent and he can be trusted to walk the ball up the floor. He's been clutch for the most part, throughout his career. He has scored above the 15-point plateau a lot, and he's scored double-digit points in 26 of our past 32 games.

So then, I took a look at the numbers he earned when shooting 11 field goals or more in a game. He's done it 18 times thus far, averaging 18.2 points per outing, in 32.8 minutes (6.77 field goals made in 13.67 attempts or 49.5%). Assuming he shoots at the same rate and percentage, if he shoots an average of 18 field goals a game (thus 324 field goals in these 18 games), he would score 23.97 points per game, in somewhere around 39 minutes. That's pretty close to 25 points and totally achievable, at his current scoring rate. Add in the fact that he's only 26 and just entering his prime, while still recovering from heart surgery. It is not out of the question at all, for him to reach such a scoring pace particularly on a team that is composed thus far of Rondo, Bradley, Lee, Bass, Terry, Sullinger, Melo. Of course, this is an inexact science, and obviously there are flaws like using a small sample size (18 games), teams game-planning for him, his potential improvement, how well Rondo and the team play, how much he actually shoots, whether there will be a new coach, who will be around him etc. But in the end, Green is a growing young man still recovering from a severe injury, and he's shown brilliance in spurts. He might never average 25ppg, he might average 26ppg, he might have another injury. He's stepping up right now as we prep for the playoffs, and it would not surprise me if he had a 30+ point game once in the playoffs. He's working hard, and that's all you can really ask out of a guy like Jeff. I love watching him play, and he's a pretty good fit for our team. He'll be an important piece in our future, either as a trade piece or a player. Go Jeff and go Celtics!
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Josh88 on March 31, 2013, 12:24:57 PM
I would say something that to my knowledge no player has ever done in the history of the NBA is not "totally achievable" and is rather out of the question.

He's a solid player and scorer, and I think a best case scenario for him is around 18 ppg. He's still has a ways to go justify $9 million per season though, and I would be very happy if he turns out to be consistently worth that price. He's never going to be a bargain or an elite scorer.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on March 31, 2013, 12:41:35 PM
Jeff Green will NEVER average 25 points per game for an entire season. It won't happen. He's not that good.

Jeff Green in 387 career regular season games has scored more than 25 points in a game a whole 16 times(give or take). Are we to suddenly believe that a 6 year vet is suddenly going to go from scoring more than 25 points in a game 4% of the time to averaging 25PPG for a whole season?

Let's get real.

Jeff is having a good stretch. He has had good individual stretches before, but never the type of production to think he could be a 25 PPG performer. He's just not that good of a shooter or pure scorer to be able to do that. You have to be getting to the free throw line 8-10 times a game to average 25 PPG. Jeff doesn't have that in him.

He's probably playing his maximum best at about 18-19 PPG with 4 RPG and 3 APG. But expect him to put in about 36-38 MPG to do that.

And here's the other thing. Is he a numbers guy or team guy? Is he someone who will most likely only maximize his numbers on a bad or very mediocre team and tend to fall to the background on good to great teams? I think this is still very much in question.

  His per36 numbers over the last 2 months are 18/5/3. I don't think 20 a game is out of the question although 25 a game would be very unlikely.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: LB3533 on March 31, 2013, 01:01:43 PM
Jeff Green will not score 25 ppg during a season because he will not get the FGA's required to get to 25ppg.

Jeff would need to shoot 18-20 times per game, shoot 44-45% overall, and 38-40% from 3 while getting the line 8-9 times per game.

I feel if Jeff continues to go to the rim and be effective from 3 point land he'll score 20ppg with ease, but he will not get to the 25ppg because the team doesn't design the offense to go through 1 guy.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: connor on March 31, 2013, 01:16:17 PM
Well, I'll take from our extremely small sample size to try to make a point. In his first start without KG, against one of the worst teams in the league, Jeff shot 11/14, an uncommon stat line, for 31 points. In his second start, he scored just 14 points in a total blowout to the Bobcats, when he shot just 4-for-11. His third start was yet again against Charlotte, but this time it was a blowout for US; he scored just 10 points (5-9, 0-1 from three) while snagging five boards and giving four assists. He started again the next game where he exploded for 43 points in our loss to Miami, where he basically just made all his layups. He played off the bench for two games until KG got injured, so he came in in the Memphis game, playing a whopping 45 minutes... shooting 4-for-10 and 1-for-4 from three point land, with just 12 points (5 rebounds, 4 assists). The next game against the Knicks, he built off his performance with his first double-double of the season (19/10) albeit in a losing effort. He had 6 assists. The next game, he scored 21 against Cleveland, but despite shooting just 6-for-17 until the final shot, the team went to him for his second game winner of the year. (I suppose clutch shooters are those who can score when their team needs them most, whether they're shooting 0-10 or 10-10) Last game against Atlanta, our team really put trust into him as he took 20 field goals (second only to the Miami game with 21 FGAs)... despite not getting the calls he probably should have gotten, he shot an impressive 11-20, along with three 3-pointers for a total of 27 points.

For argument's sake, I'd like to only take into consideration his games thus far in the second half of the season. Throughout his career, he has outplayed his first-half stats in the second-half for each season, for whatever reason. In addition, he was returning from his heart surgery, definitely complicating his return. Finally, like most players on this team, he was having trouble adjusting while "consistently being inconsistent." So, I'll start by looking at his second-half stats (anything from game 42 onwards).

His points-per-FG average is 1.38 (definitely above average). He's averaging 40.7% on his three point attempts (definitely above average), thus his points-per-3PA is 1.22 (decent). His two-point field goal percentage is a pretty average 33.9% (comparing among starting small-forwards) and he's shooting an above career-average 84.4% from the charity stripe. All-in-all, these are at- or above-average stats for any small forward, and would make him a starting SF on every team in the league except maybe Miami, OKC, New York, Boston, Toronto, Indiana and Portland. What's bad is, he averages just 4.31RPG (pretty bad) in 31.2 minutes per game (so basically about 5 rebounds per 36 minutes), and 0.59ORPG (NOT above-average). In this period, Boston has been a ho-hum 18-14.

I'd say Jeff Green doesn't have anything extremely special in his stats... he has a 0.82 TO/A ratio (not really relevant), an impressive 1.25BPG that would put him tops on our team, he commits 2.5 fouls a game (average) and gets 0.75 steals per game (not relevant). That would rank him somewhere in the second tier of NBA small forwards, and likely not a top-5 SF in anyone's book, ever. But in addition to this, his defense has improved- it's been otherworldly at times against players like LeBron and a Synergy statistic ranks him a top-10 defender in the league (must be flawed, because that's impossible by anyone's standards). His basketball IQ has been underrated by nearly everyone, in my opinion, and he's one of the smartest players on our team for sure (his Georgetown coach once called him the smartest player he's ever coached). His arms are long and he can block drives and threes, which helps the team. His strides are long and he's a decent dunker who can get to the rack when he wants to. His corner three is developed and he's hitting it with regularity. His post moves are undeveloped, but his hook shot is to be trusted, and he's an above-average isolation player. He's tall for a small forward, which allows him to post up on smaller guys, while he's quicker than most power forwards, which allows him to attack. His handles are decent and he can be trusted to walk the ball up the floor. He's been clutch for the most part, throughout his career. He has scored above the 15-point plateau a lot, and he's scored double-digit points in 26 of our past 32 games.

So then, I took a look at the numbers he earned when shooting 11 field goals or more in a game. He's done it 18 times thus far, averaging 18.2 points per outing, in 32.8 minutes (6.77 field goals made in 13.67 attempts or 49.5%). Assuming he shoots at the same rate and percentage, if he shoots an average of 18 field goals a game (thus 324 field goals in these 18 games), he would score 23.97 points per game, in somewhere around 39 minutes. That's pretty close to 25 points and totally achievable, at his current scoring rate. Add in the fact that he's only 26 and just entering his prime, while still recovering from heart surgery. It is not out of the question at all, for him to reach such a scoring pace particularly on a team that is composed thus far of Rondo, Bradley, Lee, Bass, Terry, Sullinger, Melo. Of course, this is an inexact science, and obviously there are flaws like using a small sample size (18 games), teams game-planning for him, his potential improvement, how well Rondo and the team play, how much he actually shoots, whether there will be a new coach, who will be around him etc. But in the end, Green is a growing young man still recovering from a severe injury, and he's shown brilliance in spurts. He might never average 25ppg, he might average 26ppg, he might have another injury. He's stepping up right now as we prep for the playoffs, and it would not surprise me if he had a 30+ point game once in the playoffs. He's working hard, and that's all you can really ask out of a guy like Jeff. I love watching him play, and he's a pretty good fit for our team. He'll be an important piece in our future, either as a trade piece or a player. Go Jeff and go Celtics!
All of these assumptions are based off of a way too small sample size to actually infer anything going forward, especially given that Green has never averaged anything like those numbers in similar minutes in the past, is coming off of heart surgery, has been consistently inconsistent in the past and had much poorer first half numbers. And the assumptions you have to make in order to project his potential scoring averages are too great to actually make any of the results credible.

Is it possible? Sure. Its also possible that he scores 30 a game, grows another 3 inches and becomes the center we need, shoots 20% from the field for the rest of the career, switches to baseball and bats .425 leading the Chicago Cubs to their first world series in 104 years.

Look we get it, you are all about Jeff Green and think he can pretty much do anything he wants, and I truly hope that he develops into the player that you want him to be (every Celtics fan would love that), but until he settles into a consistent pattern of play there is no way for you to project anything for him.

I commend you for going to such great lengths to break down his stats and to try to project his future potential, but it is quite literally impossible given the up and down nature of his play.

I would be happy if he could continue his per 36 over the last 2 months and work on getting a better pull-up/pick and pop mid-range game to make him really dangerous from all parts of the court (maybe some of PP's game rubs off on him).
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: tenn_smoothie on March 31, 2013, 02:47:12 PM

He plays his way and that's it. That means some days he feels aggressive and other days he doesn't feel aggressive and will do virtually nothing on the court and will completely disappear from the game and the box score. He's been doing this since Georgetown. He isn't going to change.

If he was signed @ 4 years for $14 M, I would be happy with his role and what he gives the team. But his salary is ridiculous and so measuring what he brings versus what he gets paid fosters some hostility in fans.

what also fosters hostility in fans is that Danny gave up our starting championship center (who we are STILL trying to replace) and that we, for some completely irrational reason, gave away a probable championship in the process - all in the name of trying to become the Miami Heat when the biggest advantage we had on them was our size and physical play, which is still their Achilles Heel (see Chicago game this week).

sorry - just like Game 7 in 2010, I will never get over giving away that title in 2011 when Danny decided to remake a super-motivated championship team in the image of the in-vogue small ball Miami Heat. As Harry Callahan once said, "That's a hell of a price to pay for being stylish."

wasn't it Red who said that he didn't adjust to the other team, he made the other team adjust to him - of course, Danny is still trying to prove that he is smarter than Red.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Edgar on March 31, 2013, 03:39:27 PM
If hes taking 18 to 20 shots a game.. we are in trouble, unless PP is retired and we have another superstar getting 25-30 sag. not called rajon rondo who will be passing 15 asssits a game.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on March 31, 2013, 03:52:28 PM
what also fosters hostility in fans is that Danny gave up our starting championship center (who we are STILL trying to replace) and that we, for some completely irrational reason, gave away a probable championship in the process
This is a gross overstatement.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Josh88 on March 31, 2013, 03:59:32 PM
what also fosters hostility in fans is that Danny gave up our starting championship center (who we are STILL trying to replace) and that we, for some completely irrational reason, gave away a probable championship in the process
This is a gross overstatement.

Agree 100%, but I learned a long time ago there's no point in trying to talk sense with the Perk fan club. Some people will just never get over that trade.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: LB3533 on March 31, 2013, 04:09:39 PM
Randolph is better than Perk right now.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: tenn_smoothie on March 31, 2013, 06:23:39 PM
as usual, you miss the point of the value of Kendrick Perkins - and calling 2011 a probable championship is hardly a "gross overstatement." we were leading the East at the time and rolling.

but I also have learned that there is no sense trying to explain the value of Perk to people who don't understand basketball beyond the superficial numbers in a box score.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 31, 2013, 06:27:20 PM
as usual, you miss the point of the value of Kendrick Perkins - and calling 2011 a probable championship is hardly a "gross overstatement." we were leading the East at the time and rolling.

but I have also learned long ago that there is no sense trying to explain to the value of Perk to this Celtics group to people who don't understand basketball beyond the superficial numbers in a box score.

I would suggest refraining from bringing up Perkins in a JEFF GREEN IS AWESOME thread, but whatever :D
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: tenn_smoothie on March 31, 2013, 06:30:17 PM
as usual, you miss the point of the value of Kendrick Perkins - and calling 2011 a probable championship is hardly a "gross overstatement." we were leading the East at the time and rolling.

but I have also learned long ago that there is no sense trying to explain to the value of Perk to this Celtics group to people who don't understand basketball beyond the superficial numbers in a box score.

I would suggest refraining from bringing up Perkins in a JEFF GREEN IS AWESOME thread, but whatever :D

have you read all the comments in this thread - it has hardly been a coronation of Jeff Green.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: thirstyboots18 on March 31, 2013, 06:33:28 PM
what also fosters hostility in fans is that Danny gave up our starting championship center (who we are STILL trying to replace) and that we, for some completely irrational reason, gave away a probable championship in the process
This is a gross overstatement.

Agree 100%.
It is against Blog rules to disrespect the opinions of other posters.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: thirstyboots18 on March 31, 2013, 06:38:03 PM
as usual, you miss the point of the value of Kendrick Perkins - and calling 2011 a probable championship is hardly a "gross overstatement." we were leading the East at the time and rolling.

Please refrain from disrespecting others opinions.  If you have a question, please report a thread instead of escalating things by retaliating in kind.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 31, 2013, 06:38:30 PM
as usual, you miss the point of the value of Kendrick Perkins - and calling 2011 a probable championship is hardly a "gross overstatement." we were leading the East at the time and rolling.

but I have also learned long ago that there is no sense trying to explain to the value of Perk to this Celtics group to people who don't understand basketball beyond the superficial numbers in a box score.

I would suggest refraining from bringing up Perkins in a JEFF GREEN IS AWESOME thread, but whatever :D

have you read all the comments in this thread - it has hardly been a coronation of Jeff Green.

At least they've been saying how Jeff Green is NOT awesome. Can't we get over the fact that Perkins' and Green's fates are not binded? Perkins hasn't been a Celtic for a while now, and I could care less how he is.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: tonyto3690 on March 31, 2013, 07:32:19 PM
as usual, you miss the point of the value of Kendrick Perkins - and calling 2011 a probable championship is hardly a "gross overstatement." we were leading the East at the time and rolling.

but I also have learned that there is no sense trying to explain the value of Perk to people who don't understand basketball beyond the superficial numbers in a box score.

How many games did the Heat score 100+ points in that series?
How many games did the Celtics score 90+ points in that series?
How many times were we unable to contain Lebron?

The problem wasn't defense from the center position.  The problem was we couldn't score.
Now unless you somehow think Perkins is the equivalent to Kareem or Wilt, you can't possibly think Perkins would have made a different. 
Defense was not the problem, bench scoring and back up SF was what we needed

What WAS the problem was Green was a mental midget and it's taken him three years to get his head back on after what was apparently a traumatic life style change for him.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 31, 2013, 09:50:41 PM
If hes taking 18 to 20 shots a game.. we are in trouble, unless PP is retired and we have another superstar getting 25-30 sag. not called rajon rondo who will be passing 15 asssits a game.

Jeff has 27 on 10-14 shooting right now
just a btw

he's extremely efficient. He also had 23 by the end of the third.
is 25ppg a stretch? sure...but I think 20-22 with ease
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on March 31, 2013, 10:15:44 PM
If hes taking 18 to 20 shots a game.. we are in trouble, unless PP is retired and we have another superstar getting 25-30 sag. not called rajon rondo who will be passing 15 asssits a game.

Jeff has 27 on 10-14 shooting right now
just a btw

he's extremely efficient. He also had 23 by the end of the third.
is 25ppg a stretch? sure...but I think 20-22 with ease

Most of his misses were on treys too. Efficient, by all means. I love how he may be the only volume shooter on this team who doesn't spam mid-range jumpers. He shoots the efficient layups/dunks and three-pointers. Smart player.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on March 31, 2013, 10:40:46 PM
This is a random thought, but I'll present it anyways:

When KG returns, I hope Doc runs PnPs for Jeff with one of KG/Pierce/Bass.  Jeff is a great finisher around the basket, and the other three can shoot well, so I think it would be effective.  Green might not be the best passer, but if the defense collapses on him, I'd trust him to make the right play.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: tenn_smoothie on March 31, 2013, 10:45:42 PM
as usual, you miss the point of the value of Kendrick Perkins - and calling 2011 a probable championship is hardly a "gross overstatement." we were leading the East at the time and rolling.

but I also have learned that there is no sense trying to explain the value of Perk to people who don't understand basketball beyond the superficial numbers in a box score.

How many games did the Heat score 100+ points in that series?
How many games did the Celtics score 90+ points in that series?
How many times were we unable to contain Lebron?

The problem wasn't defense from the center position.  The problem was we couldn't score.
Now unless you somehow think Perkins is the equivalent to Kareem or Wilt, you can't possibly think Perkins would have made a different. 
Defense was not the problem, bench scoring and back up SF was what we needed

What WAS the problem was Green was a mental midget and it's taken him three years to get his head back on after what was apparently a traumatic life style change for him.

immediately after Perk's departure, our interior defense numbers declined significantly - opponents scoring in the lane area increased.

we also lost a significant part of our defensive persona and physicality, which was our advantage over Miami or Chicago. Lebron and Wade would have had a much harder time driving down a clogged lane with Perkins there, never mind the fact that they would have been looking both ways after Perk put them on their backs a few times - the same way the Lakers backed off in 1984.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: tenn_smoothie on March 31, 2013, 10:55:13 PM
as usual, you miss the point of the value of Kendrick Perkins - and calling 2011 a probable championship is hardly a "gross overstatement." we were leading the East at the time and rolling.

Please refrain from disrespecting others opinions.  If you have a question, please report a thread instead of escalating things by retaliating in kind.

thirsty - my comment was about basketball - I did not personally attack anyone. i'll certainly follow the rules, but this is getting to the point of not even being able to debate basketball opinions, like the fact that I thought Kendrick Perkins has more value to this Celtics team than other posters do. isn't that kind of the point of a discussion bulletin board ?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: triboy16f on March 31, 2013, 11:01:28 PM
great game by jeff. At this rate if he can do this in the playoffs and PP production stays the same it leaves the celts with no choice but to buyout pierce for the start of next year.

Probably knowing danny he won't lose him for nothing, sign him and trade him by trade deadline or make one more run. After this year or next, should be PP's last. Jeff green is 90 percent arrived as our next sf in my books

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on March 31, 2013, 11:01:53 PM
This is a random thought, but I'll present it anyways:

When KG returns, I hope Doc runs PnPs for Jeff with one of KG/Pierce/Bass.  Jeff is a great finisher around the basket, and the other three can shoot well, so I think it would be effective.  Green might not be the best passer, but if the defense collapses on him, I'd trust him to make the right play.

true. I'd actually like to see more pick and rolls on this team and us utilizing the roll man. it seems to happen once in a blue moon smh.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Who on April 01, 2013, 04:46:03 AM
This is a random thought, but I'll present it anyways:

When KG returns, I hope Doc runs PnPs for Jeff with one of KG/Pierce/Bass.  Jeff is a great finisher around the basket, and the other three can shoot well, so I think it would be effective.  Green might not be the best passer, but if the defense collapses on him, I'd trust him to make the right play.

I would like to see more pick and rolls with Jeff Green as the roll man rather than the ball-handler when Boston go small with J.Green at PF. So much space for him to exploit. I think he could be quite dangerous there if he worked on that part of his game.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on April 01, 2013, 01:26:44 PM
as usual, you miss the point of the value of Kendrick Perkins - and calling 2011 a probable championship is hardly a "gross overstatement." we were leading the East at the time and rolling.
I suppose this is the argument which claims that trading Perkins robbed us of some purported "toughness" (sorry I have to put words in your mouth, but you don't seem interested in explaining yourself further). Except this argument patently falls short when faced with the evidence that we were pretty much the same team that season with and without Perkins.

I guess there are still people that can't come to grips with the fact that the early exit from the 2011 playoffs had nothing to do with trading Perkins, and everything to do with Shaq being made of pressed sugar at that stage of his career. Oh well.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on April 01, 2013, 02:17:18 PM
After having read through the entire thread, I'm going to attempt to solve Jeff Green:

Green is a talented basketball player.  This cannot be denied.  He's a great athlete, has a decent post game, can shoot well from the outside (especially in the corner), can finish around the basket, and is an above-average perimeter defender.  The only real issues in his game are rebounding (biggest issue; a guy with his size and athleticism should be grabbing more boards), passing (not great, but not horrible either), and post defense (not that big of an issue).

As far as skill goes, Green has many tools that work to his advantage.  He's a high-level backup and a serviceable starter.  His contract is finally starting to make sense based on recent production.

What's really going to determine Green's future (that is, where he ranks among opposing SFs) is his mentality.  As I've stated above, we know Green has all the tools to be good, it's going to come down to whether he until see them properly.  It's been noted that Green's production has remained at the same level throughout his entire career, and that he's been known to be passive.  These two points direct us to the thinking that "Green is what he is."  That's certainly true, but, to play devil's advocate, Green has a) never had the opportunity to play SF full-time (he's played with Durant and Pierce) and b) never been asked to be a #1 option.

It could be argued that those two points are at the crux of Green's lack of aggression.  He's had to defer to players better than him, thus taking away the opportunity for him to score.

That's one way to look at it.  I tend to disagree.

In my opinion, Green is best-suited as a third or fourth option on a good team (title contender).  I think his lack of aggression has more to do with his style of play (finishes plays, rather than initiates them).  Green excels when he plays with others who can create for him.  Another way to spin that is Green excels when there are other threats (aka players better than him) on the floor that the opposition has to pay attention to.  When Green isn't pressured to be a #1 scorer, that's when he shines brightest.

So, where does this place Green among other SFs?

LeBron and Durant are head and shoulders above all.  Carmelo is next.

This is where is gets tough.  There are plenty of guys who are around the same level, and then there are up-and-comers.  Let's take a look:

Pierce, George, Deng, Gay, Granger (when healthy), and Iguodala are all around the same level.  Then, you've got guys like Green, Prince, C. Butler, Marion, Wallace, Gallinari, Chandler, and Kirilenko who all provide skills that are valuable.  Finally, you've got the young guys like Leonard, Parsons, J. Butler, Kidd-Gilchrist, Barnes, and Aminu who all show promise as players.

In my opinion, Green will be top-10 without question.  However, he'll be closer to 10 than 5 in my rankings.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Galeto on April 01, 2013, 02:31:57 PM
It's tough to say where Green will rank among small forwards in the future because he simply hasn't matched up against starting small forwards much in his career.  It's a whole another business offensively to go up against guys who can match Green's size and athleticism.  This is where his lack of a tight handle comes into play, although it's gotten better and he seemingly breaks out a new move every game.  Against the Knicks he pulled off a sweet semi-crossover going right to left and finished with a nice left handed layup, something he's gone to more and more lately. 

 
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on April 01, 2013, 02:39:21 PM
Green excels when he plays with others who can create for him.  Another way to spin that is Green excels when there are other threats (aka players better than him) on the floor that the opposition has to pay attention to.
Yes and no. I don't think Green excels in situations when "others create for him", mostly because his game is nonexistent unless the ball is in his hands.

On the other hand, he absolutely excels when he's not the main threat, as he is able to put a tremendous amount of points on the board while the opposition is paying attention to said main threat(s).

That's not necessarily bad, and there will be games when Green will carry the entire team on his back -- it's just not going to happen night in and night out the way it has been with Pierce for 10+ years now. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to get Green for 9 million a year.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on April 01, 2013, 04:44:56 PM
as usual, you miss the point of the value of Kendrick Perkins - and calling 2011 a probable championship is hardly a "gross overstatement." we were leading the East at the time and rolling.

Please refrain from disrespecting others opinions.  If you have a question, please report a thread instead of escalating things by retaliating in kind.

thirsty - my comment was about basketball - I did not personally attack anyone. i'll certainly follow the rules, but this is getting to the point of not even being able to debate basketball opinions, like the fact that I thought Kendrick Perkins has more value to this Celtics team than other posters do. isn't that kind of the point of a discussion bulletin board ?

This thread is about Jeff.

It's tough to say where Green will rank among small forwards in the future because he simply hasn't matched up against starting small forwards much in his career.  It's a whole another business offensively to go up against guys who can match Green's size and athleticism.  This is where his lack of a tight handle comes into play, although it's gotten better and he seemingly breaks out a new move every game.  Against the Knicks he pulled off a sweet semi-crossover going right to left and finished with a nice left handed layup, something he's gone to more and more lately. 

 

I agree. Jury is still out, since he's been behind HOF SFs for every year in his career, thus far.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on April 01, 2013, 05:09:42 PM
Green excels when he plays with others who can create for him.  Another way to spin that is Green excels when there are other threats (aka players better than him) on the floor that the opposition has to pay attention to.
Yes and no. I don't think Green excels in situations when "others create for him", mostly because his game is nonexistent unless the ball is in his hands.

On the other hand, he absolutely excels when he's not the main threat, as he is able to put a tremendous amount of points on the board while the opposition is paying attention to said main threat(s).

That's not necessarily bad, and there will be games when Green will carry the entire team on his back -- it's just not going to happen night in and night out the way it has been with Pierce for 10+ years now. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to get Green for 9 million a year.

  Green's a pretty good spot up shooter, I don't think it's true that his game is nonexistent when he doesn't have the ball in his hands.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on April 01, 2013, 05:41:54 PM
Green excels when he plays with others who can create for him.  Another way to spin that is Green excels when there are other threats (aka players better than him) on the floor that the opposition has to pay attention to.
Yes and no. I don't think Green excels in situations when "others create for him", mostly because his game is nonexistent unless the ball is in his hands.

On the other hand, he absolutely excels when he's not the main threat, as he is able to put a tremendous amount of points on the board while the opposition is paying attention to said main threat(s).

That's not necessarily bad, and there will be games when Green will carry the entire team on his back -- it's just not going to happen night in and night out the way it has been with Pierce for 10+ years now. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to get Green for 9 million a year.

  Green's a pretty good spot up shooter, I don't think it's true that his game is nonexistent when he doesn't have the ball in his hands.

He's very good at attacking the rim, and learning the ways of the step-back from Pierce (and back when he was at OKC, he learned from KD's game)
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on April 03, 2013, 10:01:39 PM
I might be re-booting this thread, but I don't know how this kid can be ignored, even if the sample size is insufficient.

I can't believe he's becoming the clutch-threepoint shooter he is becoming. This is beyond what I hope for...
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on April 03, 2013, 10:24:14 PM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.

i know we try to 'get' this guy and categorize him, but it's no way we can say he can't be a #1 or #2 option on the right team.

and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 03, 2013, 10:29:08 PM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.



and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

nope, Rondo is the reason the guy never got the ball...ROndo was standing around warching the world go by dribbling the seconds of the clock.

Doc and More ROndo will kill the team.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: jambr380 on April 03, 2013, 10:30:27 PM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.

i know we try to 'get' this guy and categorize him, but it's no way we can say he can't be a #1 or #2 option on the right team.

and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

He's been great and I am loving what he has been doing, but I think everybody would be pretty amazingly happy if he could be a #3 option on a solid, healthy playoff team in his career...his contract would be quite a bargain as a #3 as well.

I am just repeating what others have been saying, but this team still needs a defensive minded big man and a creative scorer if we are going to be seriously competitive moving forward. Green is quickly solidifying his position as a very good starter for years to come.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: indeedproceed on April 03, 2013, 10:51:20 PM
I'm going to officially stop bringing up his rebounding, cuz his scoring really can be remarkable.

Still gonna harp on consistency until he does it 4 games out of 7 in a playoff series.

I'm a hard sell, Jeff, sue me.


No seriously don't sue me. You're really rich now, so..that's just a turn of phrase.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticsFan9 on April 03, 2013, 10:58:25 PM
I still don't think he'll be a top five SF in two years, but I'm loving his play right now.  Absolutely loving it.

Keep it up, Jeff.  We're rooting for you.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on April 03, 2013, 11:36:54 PM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.



and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

nope, Rondo is the reason the guy never got the ball...ROndo was standing around warching the world go by dribbling the seconds of the clock.

Doc and More ROndo will kill the team.

  Green took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has playing without Rondo. It's not true that Rondo never got him the ball. People who were saying that were blaming Rondo for Green's poor start to the season because it didn't occur to them that his being rusty and recovering from surgery might be the cause.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ChainSmokingLikeDino on April 03, 2013, 11:59:20 PM
EDIT: CHECK PMS
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: bfrombleacher on April 04, 2013, 12:21:18 AM
EDIT: CHECK PMS

DANG IT

Had it but refreshed it and now I don't know what you said.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on April 04, 2013, 12:37:54 AM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.



and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

nope, Rondo is the reason the guy never got the ball...ROndo was standing around warching the world go by dribbling the seconds of the clock.

Doc and More ROndo will kill the team.

  Green took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has playing without Rondo. It's not true that Rondo never got him the ball. People who were saying that were blaming Rondo for Green's poor start to the season because it didn't occur to them that his being rusty and recovering from surgery might be the cause.

first off, BballTim, you know I completely disagree with that 'fact'. In 20 minutes of playing time, he'd get 8 shots. We all know now that Green needs at lease 12.

Like I said, there was one game, I think against the Hawks, where I checked the box score and he had 10 points off 3/10 shooting and I hung my head. 7 shots later, he had 27 points or something.

I'm not using per36 for those stats because his per36 stats would say hes not going to perform as well as he has now in his actual play time. Stats and Real life are 2 diff things

Second off, I think Rondo just didn't trust Jeff and I'm hoping now that doc seems to trust him a lil more, then Rondo will do the same.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: indeedproceed on April 04, 2013, 01:02:48 AM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.



and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

nope, Rondo is the reason the guy never got the ball...ROndo was standing around warching the world go by dribbling the seconds of the clock.

Doc and More ROndo will kill the team.

  Green took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has playing without Rondo. It's not true that Rondo never got him the ball. People who were saying that were blaming Rondo for Green's poor start to the season because it didn't occur to them that his being rusty and recovering from surgery might be the cause.

first off, BballTim, you know I completely disagree with that 'fact'. In 20 minutes of playing time, he'd get 8 shots. We all know now that Green needs at lease 12.

Like I said, there was one game, I think against the Hawks, where I checked the box score and he had 10 points off 3/10 shooting and I hung my head. 7 shots later, he had 27 points or something.

I'm not using per36 for those stats because his per36 stats would say hes not going to perform as well as he has now in his actual play time. Stats and Real life are 2 diff things

Second off, I think Rondo just didn't trust Jeff and I'm hoping now that doc seems to trust him a lil more, then Rondo will do the same.

I'm not trying to mischaracterize your response, but for me at least, it seems like you say stats don't matter because you disagree with them, used an ancedote as a counter example (big no-no, at least from a logical standpoint), and then defended that stance by saying 'stats and real life are different things', which is counterintuitive; stats are unarguably a measure of 'real life', without actual real life instances, the stats couldn't exist, by definition. Thats just what stats are.

That's not to say that statistics are definitive argument within themselves, just that saying, 'those are wrong because I disagree with them, and I agree with this thing which I cannot support with meaningful numbers' isn't really a constructive counter.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: crimson_stallion on April 04, 2013, 02:20:03 AM
I'm not trying to mischaracterize your response, but for me at least, it seems like you say stats don't matter because you disagree with them, used an ancedote as a counter example (big no-no, at least from a logical standpoint), and then defended that stance by saying 'stats and real life are different things', which is counterintuitive; stats are unarguably a measure of 'real life', without actual real life instances, the stats couldn't exist, by definition. Thats just what stats are.

That's not to say that statistics are definitive argument within themselves, just that saying, 'those are wrong because I disagree with them, and I agree with this thing which I cannot support with meaningful numbers' isn't really a constructive counter.

I think what he was saying is not that stats are irrelevant, but that they don't necesarilly tell the full story.

For example what I've seen from Jeff Green so far (even in his 20+ point games) is he tends to score in streaks.  He'll score 13 in 5 minutes, then he'll not score for two quarters, then he'll score another 5 points in the last 8 minutes of the fourth.  With the exception of his 40 point that seems to be the trend.

He has a tendancy to go 'terminator' style and be straight up unstoppable in short bursts, but I've seen very few games in which he's scored relatively evenly over the course of the game the way somebody like Pierce, Rondo, Bass or KG tends to do.

You can take almost any one of Green's 20 point games, and at some point in the game there will ber a 15-20 minute stretch where he was offensively non-existent.

I think this is what he meant when he said that Jeff needs minutes to be really effective.  If you play him 15-20 minutes a game then the result is going to be random.  You might get the "15 points in 20 minutes" Jeff, or you might get the "5 points in 20 minutes" Jeff.  However, if you play him 35 minutes every night you're most likely going to get anywhere from 10-25 points from him every night (and > 18 points more often than not).

This is why looking at his scoring per minutes (in the games where he played less minutes) might not really tell the full story.

Look at guys like Pierce or KG and they tend to spread their scoring more evently, so if you gave either of those guys 20 minutes or 40 minutes their production per-minute would probably not vary much because their level of aggressiveness is generally pretty consistent.

The hole Jeff-Green-as-a-starter opens up an interesting can of worms for next season because crazilly enough Jeff Green (and not Paul Pierce) has been our best offensive player since he's been starting.  Just from watching the games it's clear that Pierce has a lot of trustin him to score the ball, I can see Doc slowly shifting some of the offensive responsiblity off Pierce and on to Green. 

My question is, has Jeff's performance right now just earned him a starting spot?

After what he has shown us as a starter in the last two weeks (three 30 point games and one 40 point game) combined with the fact that he has the youth and conditioning to play big minutes...I think it's going to be very difficult for Doc to send him back to the bench once KG returns.  It might be even harder for him to put him on the bench next season once Sullinger and Rondo come back.  Will Doc instead go with a Rondo-Pierce-Green-Sully-KG rotation, and bring Terry/Bradley/Williams/Crawford/Bass/Wilcox off the bench?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on April 04, 2013, 07:52:14 AM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.



and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

nope, Rondo is the reason the guy never got the ball...ROndo was standing around warching the world go by dribbling the seconds of the clock.

Doc and More ROndo will kill the team.

  Green took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has playing without Rondo. It's not true that Rondo never got him the ball. People who were saying that were blaming Rondo for Green's poor start to the season because it didn't occur to them that his being rusty and recovering from surgery might be the cause.

first off, BballTim, you know I completely disagree with that 'fact'. In 20 minutes of playing time, he'd get 8 shots. We all know now that Green needs at lease 12.

Like I said, there was one game, I think against the Hawks, where I checked the box score and he had 10 points off 3/10 shooting and I hung my head. 7 shots later, he had 27 points or something.

I'm not using per36 for those stats because his per36 stats would say hes not going to perform as well as he has now in his actual play time. Stats and Real life are 2 diff things

  You're not using per36 stats because you don't understand what they represent. People think they mean "if a player was on the court for 36 minutes every game they'd average x" but that's not the case. It's an easily understandable way to discuss per minute stats.

  Say PP plays 36 minutes a game and averages 19 ppg and Chris Copeland, playing for the Knicks, plays 13 min/game and averages 7 ppg. Paul's per36 is 19 ppg and Copeland's per36 is 20 ppg. Is Copeland a better scorer than PP? Unlikely. If Copeland tripled his minutes and spent more time on the court with the starters playing against other starters would he triple his scoring average? Probably not. Per36 numbers don't predict what a player would do if he played 36 minutes a game, they just measure what he does when he plays on a per minute basis and normalizes the number for 36 minutes.

  And why do they normalize the number to per36? Because it's easier to visualize. What if I told you, for instance, when Green's playing with Rondo he averages .36 shots per minute. Is that a lot? Is that a little? What if he averaged .34 shots per minute without Rondo? Is that much of a difference? You'd have to multiply those numbers out to more understandable  totals to make any determinations. That's what per36 does, it isn't any type of projection at all. It's all real life.

  Those numbers (.36 and .34 shots/minute) are (roughly) 12.9 and 12.1 shots per 36. Do we have a much better idea of whether 13 shots per 36 minutes is a little or a lot than .36 shots per minute? Probably. But whether you talk about per minute or per36 minute totals, it's still a *fact* that Green shot the ball more often playing with Rondo than he has when Rondo hasn't been on the court with him.

Second off, I think Rondo just didn't trust Jeff and I'm hoping now that doc seems to trust him a lil more, then Rondo will do the same.

  Again, this is silliness. We've seen Rondo make plenty of passes to players like Bradley, Steamer, Scal, Baby and Sheed. Why would he trust all of them but not Green? Why would Green shoot more often with Rondo playing than with Rondo on the bench if Rondo didn't trust him? This is just a claim made by people who blamed Green's poor start this year on Rondo because they never considered that taking a year off or coming back from surgery might be the culprit.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on April 04, 2013, 08:08:46 AM
After what he has shown us as a starter in the last two weeks (three 30 point games and one 40 point game) combined with the fact that he has the youth and conditioning to play big minutes...I think it's going to be very difficult for Doc to send him back to the bench once KG returns.  It might be even harder for him to put him on the bench next season once Sullinger and Rondo come back.  Will Doc instead go with a Rondo-Pierce-Green-Sully-KG rotation, and bring Terry/Bradley/Williams/Crawford/Bass/Wilcox off the bench?

  I think that would be more of a finishing lineup than a starting lineup. They can both play multiple positions but they're also responsible for 48 minutes of sf minutes, so whichever one of them doesn't start there will have to play 12-15 minutes there. In your scenario, though, Danny's going to need to do something about the logjam at sg. You can't start PP there and have Bradley/Lee/Crawford fighting over the remaining 24-28 mpg.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Snakehead on April 04, 2013, 08:31:35 AM
After what he has shown us as a starter in the last two weeks (three 30 point games and one 40 point game) combined with the fact that he has the youth and conditioning to play big minutes...I think it's going to be very difficult for Doc to send him back to the bench once KG returns.  It might be even harder for him to put him on the bench next season once Sullinger and Rondo come back.  Will Doc instead go with a Rondo-Pierce-Green-Sully-KG rotation, and bring Terry/Bradley/Williams/Crawford/Bass/Wilcox off the bench?

  I think that would be more of a finishing lineup than a starting lineup. They can both play multiple positions but they're also responsible for 48 minutes of sf minutes, so whichever one of them doesn't start there will have to play 12-15 minutes there. In your scenario, though, Danny's going to need to do something about the logjam at sg. You can't start PP there and have Bradley/Lee/Crawford fighting over the remaining 24-28 mpg.

You forgot Terry as well.

Yeah that's my issue here.  It's not an easy one to solve, but Jeff clearly needs to play minutes to be effective (and he's been VERY effective doing so).  Maybe he can do it without starting?  I'm not sure.

I also love Avery starting.  Tough choices here.  I like Pierce and Green at SG and SF though... just causes so many matchup problems and they both can do just about everything.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on April 04, 2013, 08:44:38 AM
After what he has shown us as a starter in the last two weeks (three 30 point games and one 40 point game) combined with the fact that he has the youth and conditioning to play big minutes...I think it's going to be very difficult for Doc to send him back to the bench once KG returns.  It might be even harder for him to put him on the bench next season once Sullinger and Rondo come back.  Will Doc instead go with a Rondo-Pierce-Green-Sully-KG rotation, and bring Terry/Bradley/Williams/Crawford/Bass/Wilcox off the bench?

  I think that would be more of a finishing lineup than a starting lineup. They can both play multiple positions but they're also responsible for 48 minutes of sf minutes, so whichever one of them doesn't start there will have to play 12-15 minutes there. In your scenario, though, Danny's going to need to do something about the logjam at sg. You can't start PP there and have Bradley/Lee/Crawford fighting over the remaining 24-28 mpg.

You forgot Terry as well.

Yeah that's my issue here.  It's not an easy one to solve, but Jeff clearly needs to play minutes to be effective (and he's been VERY effective doing so).  Maybe he can do it without starting?  I'm not sure.

I also love Avery starting.  Tough choices here.  I like Pierce and Green at SG and SF though... just causes so many matchup problems and they both can do just about everything.

  I was figuring "backup pg" for Terry, although that's only 12 minutes a game, 5-6 in the playoffs.

  One of the overlooked reasons we were struggling was the minutes logjam. There's a total of 240 minutes to spread out in a game (48 minutes x 5 players). PP/RR/KG average just over 100, that leaves 140 or so for Bass/Green/Wilcox/Lee/Terry/Bradley/Sully to split. It's just not enough minutes for all of those players to get steady consistent minutes or enough minutes to get into a rhythm.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Snakehead on April 04, 2013, 09:22:24 AM
After what he has shown us as a starter in the last two weeks (three 30 point games and one 40 point game) combined with the fact that he has the youth and conditioning to play big minutes...I think it's going to be very difficult for Doc to send him back to the bench once KG returns.  It might be even harder for him to put him on the bench next season once Sullinger and Rondo come back.  Will Doc instead go with a Rondo-Pierce-Green-Sully-KG rotation, and bring Terry/Bradley/Williams/Crawford/Bass/Wilcox off the bench?

  I think that would be more of a finishing lineup than a starting lineup. They can both play multiple positions but they're also responsible for 48 minutes of sf minutes, so whichever one of them doesn't start there will have to play 12-15 minutes there. In your scenario, though, Danny's going to need to do something about the logjam at sg. You can't start PP there and have Bradley/Lee/Crawford fighting over the remaining 24-28 mpg.

You forgot Terry as well.

Yeah that's my issue here.  It's not an easy one to solve, but Jeff clearly needs to play minutes to be effective (and he's been VERY effective doing so).  Maybe he can do it without starting?  I'm not sure.

I also love Avery starting.  Tough choices here.  I like Pierce and Green at SG and SF though... just causes so many matchup problems and they both can do just about everything.

  I was figuring "backup pg" for Terry, although that's only 12 minutes a game, 5-6 in the playoffs.

  One of the overlooked reasons we were struggling was the minutes logjam. There's a total of 240 minutes to spread out in a game (48 minutes x 5 players). PP/RR/KG average just over 100, that leaves 140 or so for Bass/Green/Wilcox/Lee/Terry/Bradley/Sully to split. It's just not enough minutes for all of those players to get steady consistent minutes or enough minutes to get into a rhythm.

Yeah I totally agree.

If some kind of trade can be reached for some of these pieces for a big, I think it needs to be done in the offseason.  We could probably bring in Barbosa or Pietrus to fill in the end of the bench after pulling something like that anyways. 

Our big to guard depth is just so lopsided at this point.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Jeff on April 04, 2013, 10:31:04 AM
I have a dream...  a dream of a day when we can stop overreacting to every peak and valley of Jeff Green's career and just accept him for who he is

will he be "a star" or "a bust" or "overpaid" or "underpaid" or "a building block" or "a good player on a bad team?"

I don't know.  And I'm cool with that.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on April 04, 2013, 11:09:32 AM
I have a dream...  a dream of a day when we can stop overreacting to every peak and valley of Jeff Green's career and just accept him for who he is

will he be "a star" or "a bust" or "overpaid" or "underpaid" or "a building block" or "a good player on a bad team?"

I don't know.  And I'm cool with that.

  You know things are bad when the guy who runs celticsblog opines for fewer posts on a subject.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: ssspence on April 04, 2013, 11:14:20 AM
I have a dream...  a dream of a day when we can stop overreacting to every peak and valley of Jeff Green's career and just accept him for who he is

will he be "a star" or "a bust" or "overpaid" or "underpaid" or "a building block" or "a good player on a bad team?"

I don't know.  And I'm cool with that.

  You know things are bad when the guy who runs celticsblog opines for fewer posts on a subject.

Right? Can't we just move back to debating the value of Rondo again? Things were so simple then.......
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on April 04, 2013, 11:17:53 AM
I have a dream...  a dream of a day when we can stop overreacting to every peak and valley of Jeff Green's career and just accept him for who he is

will he be "a star" or "a bust" or "overpaid" or "underpaid" or "a building block" or "a good player on a bad team?"

I don't know.  And I'm cool with that.

  You know things are bad when the guy who runs celticsblog opines for fewer posts on a subject.

Right? Can't we just move back to debating the value of Rondo again? Things were so simple then.......

  It's half the work as well. People respond to the valleys and ignore the peaks.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kozlodoev on April 04, 2013, 11:22:37 AM
I have a dream...  a dream of a day when we can stop overreacting to every peak and valley of Jeff Green's career and just accept him for who he is

will he be "a star" or "a bust" or "overpaid" or "underpaid" or "a building block" or "a good player on a bad team?"

I don't know.  And I'm cool with that.

  You know things are bad when the guy who runs celticsblog opines for fewer posts on a subject.

Right? Can't we just move back to debating the value of Rondo again? Things were so simple then.......
Value? Rondo has no value. Just cut him and save $30 million, it's going to be addition by substraction.  ;D
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: indeedproceed on April 04, 2013, 11:25:00 AM
I have a dream...  a dream of a day when we can stop overreacting to every peak and valley of Jeff Green's career and just accept him for who he is

will he be "a star" or "a bust" or "overpaid" or "underpaid" or "a building block" or "a good player on a bad team?"

I don't know.  And I'm cool with that.

  You know things are bad when the guy who runs celticsblog opines for fewer posts on a subject.

Right? Can't we just move back to debating the value of Rondo again? Things were so simple then.......

  It's half the work as well. People respond to the valleys and ignore the peaks.

I like to think they ignore the warts and focus on the smile.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Boris Badenov on April 04, 2013, 11:31:24 AM
I'm not trying to mischaracterize your response, but for me at least, it seems like you say stats don't matter because you disagree with them, used an ancedote as a counter example (big no-no, at least from a logical standpoint), and then defended that stance by saying 'stats and real life are different things', which is counterintuitive; stats are unarguably a measure of 'real life', without actual real life instances, the stats couldn't exist, by definition. Thats just what stats are.

That's not to say that statistics are definitive argument within themselves, just that saying, 'those are wrong because I disagree with them, and I agree with this thing which I cannot support with meaningful numbers' isn't really a constructive counter.

I think what he was saying is not that stats are irrelevant, but that they don't necesarilly tell the full story.

For example what I've seen from Jeff Green so far (even in his 20+ point games) is he tends to score in streaks.  He'll score 13 in 5 minutes, then he'll not score for two quarters, then he'll score another 5 points in the last 8 minutes of the fourth.  With the exception of his 40 point that seems to be the trend.

I think this is what he meant when he said that Jeff needs minutes to be really effective.  If you play him 15-20 minutes a game then the result is going to be random.  You might get the "15 points in 20 minutes" Jeff, or you might get the "5 points in 20 minutes" Jeff.  However, if you play him 35 minutes every night you're most likely going to get anywhere from 10-25 points from him every night (and > 18 points more often than not).

This is why looking at his scoring per minutes (in the games where he played less minutes) might not really tell the full story.

Look at guys like Pierce or KG and they tend to spread their scoring more evently, so if you gave either of those guys 20 minutes or 40 minutes their production per-minute would probably not vary much because their level of aggressiveness is generally pretty consistent.


I think the point was a little different actually. You're talking about being streaky, which would make his scoring in small doses very unpredictable. But it wouldn't necessarily change the average number of points per minute. If Green plays 20 minutes per game and scores 5 one night and 20 another, he's averaging 12.5. If he gets 10 one night and 15 the next, he still averages 12.5. The variability is lower but the average is the same. And even if the variability goes down when minutes go up, the average might not change (or could go down).

I think the argument is (or should be) that Green's per-36 numbers are better when he plays more minutes.

Right now the data bear that out. Green averages 21 points per 36 minutes as a starter in 11 games this year. Off the bench, he averages 15 points per 36 minutes. One interpretation is that Green actually becomes a better player when you give him more minutes.

I personally disagree with that interpretation for two reasons. First, when Green starts it's because another starter is out, so his role in the offense will naturally increase. If JG is on the court with KG, he will take fewer shots than when he's out there with Bass or Wilcox - and rightly so. And second, Doc might leave Green (or any player) out there more often when he's hot - in which case the nights on which he gets more minutes will of course be the ones on which he's most effective.

But in neither case does giving Green more minutes *cause* him to score more, per minute. To interpret the numbers that way would confuse correlation with causality.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: LB3533 on April 04, 2013, 11:32:18 AM
I'm not trying to mischaracterize your response, but for me at least, it seems like you say stats don't matter because you disagree with them, used an ancedote as a counter example (big no-no, at least from a logical standpoint), and then defended that stance by saying 'stats and real life are different things', which is counterintuitive; stats are unarguably a measure of 'real life', without actual real life instances, the stats couldn't exist, by definition. Thats just what stats are.

That's not to say that statistics are definitive argument within themselves, just that saying, 'those are wrong because I disagree with them, and I agree with this thing which I cannot support with meaningful numbers' isn't really a constructive counter.

I think what he was saying is not that stats are irrelevant, but that they don't necesarilly tell the full story.

For example what I've seen from Jeff Green so far (even in his 20+ point games) is he tends to score in streaks.  He'll score 13 in 5 minutes, then he'll not score for two quarters, then he'll score another 5 points in the last 8 minutes of the fourth.  With the exception of his 40 point that seems to be the trend.

He has a tendancy to go 'terminator' style and be straight up unstoppable in short bursts, but I've seen very few games in which he's scored relatively evenly over the course of the game the way somebody like Pierce, Rondo, Bass or KG tends to do.

You can take almost any one of Green's 20 point games, and at some point in the game there will ber a 15-20 minute stretch where he was offensively non-existent.

I think this is what he meant when he said that Jeff needs minutes to be really effective.  If you play him 15-20 minutes a game then the result is going to be random.  You might get the "15 points in 20 minutes" Jeff, or you might get the "5 points in 20 minutes" Jeff.  However, if you play him 35 minutes every night you're most likely going to get anywhere from 10-25 points from him every night (and > 18 points more often than not).

This is why looking at his scoring per minutes (in the games where he played less minutes) might not really tell the full story.

Look at guys like Pierce or KG and they tend to spread their scoring more evently, so if you gave either of those guys 20 minutes or 40 minutes their production per-minute would probably not vary much because their level of aggressiveness is generally pretty consistent.

The hole Jeff-Green-as-a-starter opens up an interesting can of worms for next season because crazilly enough Jeff Green (and not Paul Pierce) has been our best offensive player since he's been starting.  Just from watching the games it's clear that Pierce has a lot of trustin him to score the ball, I can see Doc slowly shifting some of the offensive responsiblity off Pierce and on to Green. 

My question is, has Jeff's performance right now just earned him a starting spot?

After what he has shown us as a starter in the last two weeks (three 30 point games and one 40 point game) combined with the fact that he has the youth and conditioning to play big minutes...I think it's going to be very difficult for Doc to send him back to the bench once KG returns.  It might be even harder for him to put him on the bench next season once Sullinger and Rondo come back.  Will Doc instead go with a Rondo-Pierce-Green-Sully-KG rotation, and bring Terry/Bradley/Williams/Crawford/Bass/Wilcox off the bench?

I just think when a player plays within the flow of the offense, he is not going to look to score unless he has an advantage or those opportunities to score are available.

I think people are not sure what exactly they want from a player because there are those who really dislike "selfish" chuckers like Kobe, Westbrook etc.

Then there are those who prefer guys' game who are mellow, smooth, even keel and suave, Tim Duncan, Joe Johnson, Ray Allen, etc.

Jeff has good game, his game is not going to please everyone. I like the fact that he can get the production done without needing to give up efficiency. I like the fact that Jeff can bring a little nasty here, and a little bit of clutch there....when it is necessary.

Right now since we still have PP, KG and Rondo, Jeff is not required to bring that nasty all the time.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on April 04, 2013, 11:37:37 AM
I have a dream...  a dream of a day when we can stop overreacting to every peak and valley of Jeff Green's career and just accept him for who he is

will he be "a star" or "a bust" or "overpaid" or "underpaid" or "a building block" or "a good player on a bad team?"

I don't know.  And I'm cool with that.

  You know things are bad when the guy who runs celticsblog opines for fewer posts on a subject.

Right? Can't we just move back to debating the value of Rondo again? Things were so simple then.......

  It's half the work as well. People respond to the valleys and ignore the peaks.

I like to think they ignore the warts and focus on the smile.

  That's the problem, Rondo hardly ever smiles.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on April 04, 2013, 11:46:21 AM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.



and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

nope, Rondo is the reason the guy never got the ball...ROndo was standing around warching the world go by dribbling the seconds of the clock.

Doc and More ROndo will kill the team.

  Green took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has playing without Rondo. It's not true that Rondo never got him the ball. People who were saying that were blaming Rondo for Green's poor start to the season because it didn't occur to them that his being rusty and recovering from surgery might be the cause.

first off, BballTim, you know I completely disagree with that 'fact'. In 20 minutes of playing time, he'd get 8 shots. We all know now that Green needs at lease 12.

Like I said, there was one game, I think against the Hawks, where I checked the box score and he had 10 points off 3/10 shooting and I hung my head. 7 shots later, he had 27 points or something.

I'm not using per36 for those stats because his per36 stats would say hes not going to perform as well as he has now in his actual play time. Stats and Real life are 2 diff things

Second off, I think Rondo just didn't trust Jeff and I'm hoping now that doc seems to trust him a lil more, then Rondo will do the same.

I'm not trying to mischaracterize your response, but for me at least, it seems like you say stats don't matter because you disagree with them, used an ancedote as a counter example (big no-no, at least from a logical standpoint), and then defended that stance by saying 'stats and real life are different things', which is counterintuitive; stats are unarguably a measure of 'real life', without actual real life instances, the stats couldn't exist, by definition. Thats just what stats are.

That's not to say that statistics are definitive argument within themselves, just that saying, 'those are wrong because I disagree with them, and I agree with this thing which I cannot support with meaningful numbers' isn't really a constructive counter.

my argument is why are you using stats to predict what's already happening. You can't tell me that because in 20-25 minutes of play, with 8 or so shots, he got more shots with Rondo, rather than the play now where he's playing 35+ minutes and getting double those shots now.

in the meantime, his shots have gradually increased as people have fed him the ball more. you're asking me to 'pretend' like he and Rondo have played for 35 minutes rather than see that he's gotten more shots now.

for ME, that doesn't make sense, especially when the difference is less than 1.0.  That's just my thinking. You all are free to take it or leave it.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Boris Badenov on April 04, 2013, 11:48:18 AM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.



and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

nope, Rondo is the reason the guy never got the ball...ROndo was standing around warching the world go by dribbling the seconds of the clock.

Doc and More ROndo will kill the team.

  Green took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has playing without Rondo. It's not true that Rondo never got him the ball. People who were saying that were blaming Rondo for Green's poor start to the season because it didn't occur to them that his being rusty and recovering from surgery might be the cause.

first off, BballTim, you know I completely disagree with that 'fact'. In 20 minutes of playing time, he'd get 8 shots. We all know now that Green needs at lease 12.

Like I said, there was one game, I think against the Hawks, where I checked the box score and he had 10 points off 3/10 shooting and I hung my head. 7 shots later, he had 27 points or something.

I'm not using per36 for those stats because his per36 stats would say hes not going to perform as well as he has now in his actual play time. Stats and Real life are 2 diff things

Second off, I think Rondo just didn't trust Jeff and I'm hoping now that doc seems to trust him a lil more, then Rondo will do the same.

I'm not trying to mischaracterize your response, but for me at least, it seems like you say stats don't matter because you disagree with them, used an ancedote as a counter example (big no-no, at least from a logical standpoint), and then defended that stance by saying 'stats and real life are different things', which is counterintuitive; stats are unarguably a measure of 'real life', without actual real life instances, the stats couldn't exist, by definition. Thats just what stats are.

That's not to say that statistics are definitive argument within themselves, just that saying, 'those are wrong because I disagree with them, and I agree with this thing which I cannot support with meaningful numbers' isn't really a constructive counter.

my argument is why are you using stats to predict what's already happening. You can't tell me that because in 20-25 minutes of play, with 8 or so shots, he got more shots with Rondo, rather than the play now where he's playing 35+ minutes and getting double those shots now.

in the meantime, his shots have gradually increased as people have fed him the ball more. you're asking me to 'pretend' like he and Rondo have played for 35 minutes rather than see that he's gotten more shots now.

for ME, that doesn't make sense, especially when the difference is less than 1.0.  That's just my thinking. You all are free to take it or leave it.

Did you read my post above?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on April 04, 2013, 11:48:34 AM
I'm not trying to mischaracterize your response, but for me at least, it seems like you say stats don't matter because you disagree with them, used an ancedote as a counter example (big no-no, at least from a logical standpoint), and then defended that stance by saying 'stats and real life are different things', which is counterintuitive; stats are unarguably a measure of 'real life', without actual real life instances, the stats couldn't exist, by definition. Thats just what stats are.

That's not to say that statistics are definitive argument within themselves, just that saying, 'those are wrong because I disagree with them, and I agree with this thing which I cannot support with meaningful numbers' isn't really a constructive counter.

I think what he was saying is not that stats are irrelevant, but that they don't necesarilly tell the full story.

For example what I've seen from Jeff Green so far (even in his 20+ point games) is he tends to score in streaks.  He'll score 13 in 5 minutes, then he'll not score for two quarters, then he'll score another 5 points in the last 8 minutes of the fourth.  With the exception of his 40 point that seems to be the trend.

He has a tendancy to go 'terminator' style and be straight up unstoppable in short bursts, but I've seen very few games in which he's scored relatively evenly over the course of the game the way somebody like Pierce, Rondo, Bass or KG tends to do.

You can take almost any one of Green's 20 point games, and at some point in the game there will ber a 15-20 minute stretch where he was offensively non-existent.

I think this is what he meant when he said that Jeff needs minutes to be really effective.  If you play him 15-20 minutes a game then the result is going to be random.  You might get the "15 points in 20 minutes" Jeff, or you might get the "5 points in 20 minutes" Jeff.  However, if you play him 35 minutes every night you're most likely going to get anywhere from 10-25 points from him every night (and > 18 points more often than not).

This is why looking at his scoring per minutes (in the games where he played less minutes) might not really tell the full story.

Look at guys like Pierce or KG and they tend to spread their scoring more evently, so if you gave either of those guys 20 minutes or 40 minutes their production per-minute would probably not vary much because their level of aggressiveness is generally pretty consistent.

The hole Jeff-Green-as-a-starter opens up an interesting can of worms for next season because crazilly enough Jeff Green (and not Paul Pierce) has been our best offensive player since he's been starting.  Just from watching the games it's clear that Pierce has a lot of trustin him to score the ball, I can see Doc slowly shifting some of the offensive responsiblity off Pierce and on to Green. 

My question is, has Jeff's performance right now just earned him a starting spot?

After what he has shown us as a starter in the last two weeks (three 30 point games and one 40 point game) combined with the fact that he has the youth and conditioning to play big minutes...I think it's going to be very difficult for Doc to send him back to the bench once KG returns.  It might be even harder for him to put him on the bench next season once Sullinger and Rondo come back.  Will Doc instead go with a Rondo-Pierce-Green-Sully-KG rotation, and bring Terry/Bradley/Williams/Crawford/Bass/Wilcox off the bench?

well, that's a simpler way to put it too lol
Jeff can come out and score 5 points in his first 6 minutes like last night
or he'll score 7 points one half and 20 the entire 2nd half
*shrug*
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on April 04, 2013, 11:50:42 AM
I'm not trying to mischaracterize your response, but for me at least, it seems like you say stats don't matter because you disagree with them, used an ancedote as a counter example (big no-no, at least from a logical standpoint), and then defended that stance by saying 'stats and real life are different things', which is counterintuitive; stats are unarguably a measure of 'real life', without actual real life instances, the stats couldn't exist, by definition. Thats just what stats are.

That's not to say that statistics are definitive argument within themselves, just that saying, 'those are wrong because I disagree with them, and I agree with this thing which I cannot support with meaningful numbers' isn't really a constructive counter.

I think what he was saying is not that stats are irrelevant, but that they don't necesarilly tell the full story.

For example what I've seen from Jeff Green so far (even in his 20+ point games) is he tends to score in streaks.  He'll score 13 in 5 minutes, then he'll not score for two quarters, then he'll score another 5 points in the last 8 minutes of the fourth.  With the exception of his 40 point that seems to be the trend.

I think this is what he meant when he said that Jeff needs minutes to be really effective.  If you play him 15-20 minutes a game then the result is going to be random.  You might get the "15 points in 20 minutes" Jeff, or you might get the "5 points in 20 minutes" Jeff.  However, if you play him 35 minutes every night you're most likely going to get anywhere from 10-25 points from him every night (and > 18 points more often than not).

This is why looking at his scoring per minutes (in the games where he played less minutes) might not really tell the full story.

Look at guys like Pierce or KG and they tend to spread their scoring more evently, so if you gave either of those guys 20 minutes or 40 minutes their production per-minute would probably not vary much because their level of aggressiveness is generally pretty consistent.


I think the point was a little different actually. You're talking about being streaky, which would make his scoring in small doses very unpredictable. But it wouldn't necessarily change the average number of points per minute. If Green plays 20 minutes per game and scores 5 one night and 20 another, he's averaging 12.5. If he gets 10 one night and 15 the next, he still averages 12.5. The variability is lower but the average is the same. And even if the variability goes down when minutes go up, the average might not change (or could go down).

I think the argument is (or should be) that Green's per-36 numbers are better when he plays more minutes.

Right now the data bear that out. Green averages 21 points per 36 minutes as a starter in 11 games this year. Off the bench, he averages 15 points per 36 minutes. One interpretation is that Green actually becomes a better player when you give him more minutes.

I personally disagree with that interpretation for two reasons. First, when Green starts it's because another starter is out, so his role in the offense will naturally increase. If JG is on the court with KG, he will take fewer shots than when he's out there with Bass or Wilcox - and rightly so. And second, Doc might leave Green (or any player) out there more often when he's hot - in which case the nights on which he gets more minutes will of course be the ones on which he's most effective.

But in neither case does giving Green more minutes *cause* him to score more, per minute. To interpret the numbers that way would confuse correlation with causality.

  There are a lot of variables to consider. Aside from the fact that people like KG are out you also have to consider that his play has improved over the course of the season due to his health and rustiness. I think that there is something to people playing better when they get more minutes, Doc's mentioned this in the past.


  But aside from playing better when they get more minutes, they get more minutes when they play better. If Green's playing well Doc will leave him in longer. You'd often see Doc call players like Rondo or the big three back over to the bench when they were waiting to re-enter the game because the guy who was going to sub out started playing well. Their stats for that game aren't good because they got so many minutes, they got so many minutes because they were playing well.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: pearljammer10 on April 04, 2013, 11:56:27 AM
I just want to step back and take the time to appreciate what Jeff Green has been giving to us. He seems to really be back in NBA shape and recovering prefectly fine from his surgery and really stepping up and taking over a role especially with the injuries flying around.

Over the last ten games, (since his 43 point outburst), Green's has been averaging:

22 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal, while shooting 55% from the field and 53% from the three point line...

He is playing great efficient ball right now just in time for the playoffs role around. And I'd like to give him a friendly digital pat on the back because of it.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on April 04, 2013, 11:58:34 AM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.



and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

nope, Rondo is the reason the guy never got the ball...ROndo was standing around warching the world go by dribbling the seconds of the clock.

Doc and More ROndo will kill the team.

  Green took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has playing without Rondo. It's not true that Rondo never got him the ball. People who were saying that were blaming Rondo for Green's poor start to the season because it didn't occur to them that his being rusty and recovering from surgery might be the cause.

first off, BballTim, you know I completely disagree with that 'fact'. In 20 minutes of playing time, he'd get 8 shots. We all know now that Green needs at lease 12.

Like I said, there was one game, I think against the Hawks, where I checked the box score and he had 10 points off 3/10 shooting and I hung my head. 7 shots later, he had 27 points or something.

I'm not using per36 for those stats because his per36 stats would say hes not going to perform as well as he has now in his actual play time. Stats and Real life are 2 diff things

  You're not using per36 stats because you don't understand what they represent. People think they mean "if a player was on the court for 36 minutes every game they'd average x" but that's not the case. It's an easily understandable way to discuss per minute stats.

  Say PP plays 36 minutes a game and averages 19 ppg and Chris Copeland, playing for the Knicks, plays 13 min/game and averages 7 ppg. Paul's per36 is 19 ppg and Copeland's per36 is 20 ppg. Is Copeland a better scorer than PP? Unlikely. If Copeland tripled his minutes and spent more time on the court with the starters playing against other starters would he triple his scoring average? Probably not. Per36 numbers don't predict what a player would do if he played 36 minutes a game, they just measure what he does when he plays on a per minute basis and normalizes the number for 36 minutes.

  And why do they normalize the number to per36? Because it's easier to visualize. What if I told you, for instance, when Green's playing with Rondo he averages .36 shots per minute. Is that a lot? Is that a little? What if he averaged .34 shots per minute without Rondo? Is that much of a difference? You'd have to multiply those numbers out to more understandable  totals to make any determinations. That's what per36 does, it isn't any type of projection at all. It's all real life.

  Those numbers (.36 and .34 shots/minute) are (roughly) 12.9 and 12.1 shots per 36. Do we have a much better idea of whether 13 shots per 36 minutes is a little or a lot than .36 shots per minute? Probably. But whether you talk about per minute or per36 minute totals, it's still a *fact* that Green shot the ball more often playing with Rondo than he has when Rondo hasn't been on the court with him.

Second off, I think Rondo just didn't trust Jeff and I'm hoping now that doc seems to trust him a lil more, then Rondo will do the same.

  Again, this is silliness. We've seen Rondo make plenty of passes to players like Bradley, Steamer, Scal, Baby and Sheed. Why would he trust all of them but not Green? Why would Green shoot more often with Rondo playing than with Rondo on the bench if Rondo didn't trust him? This is just a claim made by people who blamed Green's poor start this year on Rondo because they never considered that taking a year off or coming back from surgery might be the culprit.

you just proved my point and continued to use per36. you want me to believe he got more touches with Rondo because it's at 12.8. But you went ahead and said just because a person's on the floor for 36 minutes doesn't mean it will happen. Well ta-da.

you're talking about stats. I'm talking about THE ACTUAL GAME.

and if you think Rondo didn't trust some of the 'new guys', I don't know what to tell you. we've had several debates on this board about who Rondo is talking about when he says guys are in the locker room laughing and joking, etc. now, that's not fact, that's not stats, that's my own interpretation. They were having problems in the locker room. It's 9 new guys.

I wasn't trying to make Rondo seem petty, I'm just saying if you're playing with KG and PP with whom you've played years with, you're probably gonna be more apt to pass it to them rather than a Jeff Green or a Courtney Lee or what have you.

I'm not sure how these aren't perfectly logical deductions. But alright.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Fafnir on April 04, 2013, 12:02:46 PM
you just proved my point and continued to use per36. you want me to believe he got more touches with Rondo because it's at 12.8. But you went ahead and said just because a person's on the floor for 36 minutes doesn't mean it will happen. Well ta-da.

you're talking about stats. I'm talking about THE ACTUAL GAME.
Stats are a record of what has happened during the game.

When Bballtim shows that Green was shooting at roughly the same rate with/without Rondo on the floor it means just that.

You can't handwave that away by saying "nuh uh I watch THE GAME". Because in the end you're a human being who can't recall every shot Jeff Green took 3 months ago when Rondo was running the point.

As for the per36 comments, I'm still not sure you understand the differences between rates, totals, and projections.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on April 04, 2013, 12:04:36 PM
I just want to step back and take the time to appreciate what Jeff Green has been giving to us. He seems to really be back in NBA shape and recovering prefectly fine from his surgery and really stepping up and taking over a role especially with the injuries flying around.

Over the last ten games, (since his 43 point outburst), Green's has been averaging:

22 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal, while shooting 55% from the field and 53% from the three point line...

He is playing great efficient ball right now just in time for the playoffs role around. And I'd like to give him a friendly digital pat on the back because of it.

I agree. And in his last 10 games he's avg 14.5 FGA, and 16.2 from his last 5...so I want to know how Doc plans to make sure everyone gets the amount of shots they need to be productive, because I def think Jeff needs more than 10 or 12 a night.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: clover on April 04, 2013, 12:09:37 PM
I'm not trying to mischaracterize your response, but for me at least, it seems like you say stats don't matter because you disagree with them, used an ancedote as a counter example (big no-no, at least from a logical standpoint), and then defended that stance by saying 'stats and real life are different things', which is counterintuitive; stats are unarguably a measure of 'real life', without actual real life instances, the stats couldn't exist, by definition. Thats just what stats are.

That's not to say that statistics are definitive argument within themselves, just that saying, 'those are wrong because I disagree with them, and I agree with this thing which I cannot support with meaningful numbers' isn't really a constructive counter.

I think what he was saying is not that stats are irrelevant, but that they don't necesarilly tell the full story.

For example what I've seen from Jeff Green so far (even in his 20+ point games) is he tends to score in streaks.  He'll score 13 in 5 minutes, then he'll not score for two quarters, then he'll score another 5 points in the last 8 minutes of the fourth.  With the exception of his 40 point that seems to be the trend.

I think this is what he meant when he said that Jeff needs minutes to be really effective.  If you play him 15-20 minutes a game then the result is going to be random.  You might get the "15 points in 20 minutes" Jeff, or you might get the "5 points in 20 minutes" Jeff.  However, if you play him 35 minutes every night you're most likely going to get anywhere from 10-25 points from him every night (and > 18 points more often than not).

This is why looking at his scoring per minutes (in the games where he played less minutes) might not really tell the full story.

Look at guys like Pierce or KG and they tend to spread their scoring more evently, so if you gave either of those guys 20 minutes or 40 minutes their production per-minute would probably not vary much because their level of aggressiveness is generally pretty consistent.


I think the point was a little different actually. You're talking about being streaky, which would make his scoring in small doses very unpredictable. But it wouldn't necessarily change the average number of points per minute. If Green plays 20 minutes per game and scores 5 one night and 20 another, he's averaging 12.5. If he gets 10 one night and 15 the next, he still averages 12.5. The variability is lower but the average is the same. And even if the variability goes down when minutes go up, the average might not change (or could go down).

I think the argument is (or should be) that Green's per-36 numbers are better when he plays more minutes.

Right now the data bear that out. Green averages 21 points per 36 minutes as a starter in 11 games this year. Off the bench, he averages 15 points per 36 minutes. One interpretation is that Green actually becomes a better player when you give him more minutes.

I personally disagree with that interpretation for two reasons. First, when Green starts it's because another starter is out, so his role in the offense will naturally increase. If JG is on the court with KG, he will take fewer shots than when he's out there with Bass or Wilcox - and rightly so. And second, Doc might leave Green (or any player) out there more often when he's hot - in which case the nights on which he gets more minutes will of course be the ones on which he's most effective.

But in neither case does giving Green more minutes *cause* him to score more, per minute. To interpret the numbers that way would confuse correlation with causality.

Possibly, but he's also clearly been playing better as the year goes on--and only really starting as of late.  He also plays more minutes when he has a good match up. 

Still, just watching him, he seems to feel like he has to carry more of the load when he's starting, and that seems to be a good thing for him.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Fafnir on April 04, 2013, 12:14:20 PM
I just want to step back and take the time to appreciate what Jeff Green has been giving to us. He seems to really be back in NBA shape and recovering prefectly fine from his surgery and really stepping up and taking over a role especially with the injuries flying around.

Over the last ten games, (since his 43 point outburst), Green's has been averaging:

22 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal, while shooting 55% from the field and 53% from the three point line...

He is playing great efficient ball right now just in time for the playoffs role around. And I'd like to give him a friendly digital pat on the back because of it.

I agree. And in his last 10 games he's avg 14.5 FGA, and 16.2 from his last 5...so I want to know how Doc plans to make sure everyone gets the amount of shots they need to be productive, because I def think Jeff needs more than 10 or 12 a night.
Jeff isn't an aggressive offensive player though, and its pretty late in the season to try and force feed him.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4703910/green-and-the-unintentional-takeover#more

Discusses his offense in detail with Jeff/Doc. Doc seems to be pushing him as being more aggressive, which makes sense to me. Coaches have been asking for an aggressive to Green's game forever.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Donoghus on April 04, 2013, 12:15:40 PM
Was only able to catch the 4th quarter last night (thanks tax season) but really liked what I saw out of Green last night.  Loved the aggressiveness he was playing with.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Boris Badenov on April 04, 2013, 12:17:26 PM
I'm not trying to mischaracterize your response, but for me at least, it seems like you say stats don't matter because you disagree with them, used an ancedote as a counter example (big no-no, at least from a logical standpoint), and then defended that stance by saying 'stats and real life are different things', which is counterintuitive; stats are unarguably a measure of 'real life', without actual real life instances, the stats couldn't exist, by definition. Thats just what stats are.

That's not to say that statistics are definitive argument within themselves, just that saying, 'those are wrong because I disagree with them, and I agree with this thing which I cannot support with meaningful numbers' isn't really a constructive counter.

I think what he was saying is not that stats are irrelevant, but that they don't necesarilly tell the full story.

For example what I've seen from Jeff Green so far (even in his 20+ point games) is he tends to score in streaks.  He'll score 13 in 5 minutes, then he'll not score for two quarters, then he'll score another 5 points in the last 8 minutes of the fourth.  With the exception of his 40 point that seems to be the trend.

I think this is what he meant when he said that Jeff needs minutes to be really effective.  If you play him 15-20 minutes a game then the result is going to be random.  You might get the "15 points in 20 minutes" Jeff, or you might get the "5 points in 20 minutes" Jeff.  However, if you play him 35 minutes every night you're most likely going to get anywhere from 10-25 points from him every night (and > 18 points more often than not).

This is why looking at his scoring per minutes (in the games where he played less minutes) might not really tell the full story.

Look at guys like Pierce or KG and they tend to spread their scoring more evently, so if you gave either of those guys 20 minutes or 40 minutes their production per-minute would probably not vary much because their level of aggressiveness is generally pretty consistent.


I think the point was a little different actually. You're talking about being streaky, which would make his scoring in small doses very unpredictable. But it wouldn't necessarily change the average number of points per minute. If Green plays 20 minutes per game and scores 5 one night and 20 another, he's averaging 12.5. If he gets 10 one night and 15 the next, he still averages 12.5. The variability is lower but the average is the same. And even if the variability goes down when minutes go up, the average might not change (or could go down).

I think the argument is (or should be) that Green's per-36 numbers are better when he plays more minutes.

Right now the data bear that out. Green averages 21 points per 36 minutes as a starter in 11 games this year. Off the bench, he averages 15 points per 36 minutes. One interpretation is that Green actually becomes a better player when you give him more minutes.

I personally disagree with that interpretation for two reasons. First, when Green starts it's because another starter is out, so his role in the offense will naturally increase. If JG is on the court with KG, he will take fewer shots than when he's out there with Bass or Wilcox - and rightly so. And second, Doc might leave Green (or any player) out there more often when he's hot - in which case the nights on which he gets more minutes will of course be the ones on which he's most effective.

But in neither case does giving Green more minutes *cause* him to score more, per minute. To interpret the numbers that way would confuse correlation with causality.

Possibly, but he's also clearly been playing better as the year goes on--and only really starting as of late.  He also plays more minutes when he has a good match up. 

Still, just watching him, he seems to feel like he has to carry more of the load when he's starting, and that seems to be a good thing for him.

I agree. He might be getting more minutes because he's playing better. and we're still looking at a small number of games.

I'm as happy about his performance as anyone, believe me. I'm just trying to weigh in on these arguments that Rondo was holding him back, or that he would have been playing this way all along if we'd given him more minutes, etc.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on April 04, 2013, 12:19:17 PM
I just want to step back and take the time to appreciate what Jeff Green has been giving to us. He seems to really be back in NBA shape and recovering prefectly fine from his surgery and really stepping up and taking over a role especially with the injuries flying around.

Over the last ten games, (since his 43 point outburst), Green's has been averaging:

22 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal, while shooting 55% from the field and 53% from the three point line...

He is playing great efficient ball right now just in time for the playoffs role around. And I'd like to give him a friendly digital pat on the back because of it.

I agree. And in his last 10 games he's avg 14.5 FGA, and 16.2 from his last 5...so I want to know how Doc plans to make sure everyone gets the amount of shots they need to be productive, because I def think Jeff needs more than 10 or 12 a night.
Jeff isn't an aggressive offensive player though, and its pretty late in the season to try and force feed him.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4703910/green-and-the-unintentional-takeover#more

Discusses his offense in detail with Jeff/Doc. Doc seems to be pushing him as being more aggressive, which makes sense to me. Coaches have been asking for an aggressive to Green's game forever.

I'm not a 100% sure what your argument is. Are you saying because he isn't aggressive, he shouldn't get 10+ shots or what?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on April 04, 2013, 12:23:07 PM
I for one think he will be top 5 in the next two years.

When Paul calls it quits and he's taking most of the shots, as long as he's playing in this pace (the last 10 games, his numbers suggest he is top 10) he will be.

And for $9 million too, great contract.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Fafnir on April 04, 2013, 12:23:26 PM
I just want to step back and take the time to appreciate what Jeff Green has been giving to us. He seems to really be back in NBA shape and recovering prefectly fine from his surgery and really stepping up and taking over a role especially with the injuries flying around.

Over the last ten games, (since his 43 point outburst), Green's has been averaging:

22 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal, while shooting 55% from the field and 53% from the three point line...

He is playing great efficient ball right now just in time for the playoffs role around. And I'd like to give him a friendly digital pat on the back because of it.

I agree. And in his last 10 games he's avg 14.5 FGA, and 16.2 from his last 5...so I want to know how Doc plans to make sure everyone gets the amount of shots they need to be productive, because I def think Jeff needs more than 10 or 12 a night.
Jeff isn't an aggressive offensive player though, and its pretty late in the season to try and force feed him.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4703910/green-and-the-unintentional-takeover#more

Discusses his offense in detail with Jeff/Doc. Doc seems to be pushing him as being more aggressive, which makes sense to me. Coaches have been asking for an aggressive to Green's game forever.

I'm not a 100% sure what your argument is. Are you saying because he isn't aggressive, he shouldn't get 10+ shots or what?
I'm saying Green takes a shot every 2.5 minutes and has a usage rate around 22. He's not an aggresive player when it comes to his own offense most nights.

So if he's playing 36-40 minutes he'll get 12-15 shots up, but he's not going to force the issue with aggressive offensive play most nights. C's can't change that approach in the 7 games left.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on April 04, 2013, 12:23:31 PM
have we been watching the same Jeff Green play recently? I mean, even since January?
I'd like to think he's turned a corner. He's had some duds, as everyone does, but to say he's still inconsistent, or not aggressive, or what have you. That confuses me. And maybe it's a question of definition but for me, I want to see Jeff Green consistently and aggressively take it to the hoop every night. All his shots are not going to fall, but if he's putting for that effort I really can't be mad.

Idk. I just see people throwing out those terms and saying we're getting too high on the guy, but I'm not just discussing his starter play (though I think it's great)...but is 16 off the bench awful? God no.

I would just to know at what point do I get to fan girl for Jeff and not get any back lash? lol

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on April 04, 2013, 12:26:15 PM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.



and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

nope, Rondo is the reason the guy never got the ball...ROndo was standing around warching the world go by dribbling the seconds of the clock.

Doc and More ROndo will kill the team.

  Green took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has playing without Rondo. It's not true that Rondo never got him the ball. People who were saying that were blaming Rondo for Green's poor start to the season because it didn't occur to them that his being rusty and recovering from surgery might be the cause.

first off, BballTim, you know I completely disagree with that 'fact'. In 20 minutes of playing time, he'd get 8 shots. We all know now that Green needs at lease 12.

Like I said, there was one game, I think against the Hawks, where I checked the box score and he had 10 points off 3/10 shooting and I hung my head. 7 shots later, he had 27 points or something.

I'm not using per36 for those stats because his per36 stats would say hes not going to perform as well as he has now in his actual play time. Stats and Real life are 2 diff things

Second off, I think Rondo just didn't trust Jeff and I'm hoping now that doc seems to trust him a lil more, then Rondo will do the same.

I'm not trying to mischaracterize your response, but for me at least, it seems like you say stats don't matter because you disagree with them, used an ancedote as a counter example (big no-no, at least from a logical standpoint), and then defended that stance by saying 'stats and real life are different things', which is counterintuitive; stats are unarguably a measure of 'real life', without actual real life instances, the stats couldn't exist, by definition. Thats just what stats are.

That's not to say that statistics are definitive argument within themselves, just that saying, 'those are wrong because I disagree with them, and I agree with this thing which I cannot support with meaningful numbers' isn't really a constructive counter.

my argument is why are you using stats to predict what's already happening. You can't tell me that because in 20-25 minutes of play, with 8 or so shots, he got more shots with Rondo, rather than the play now where he's playing 35+ minutes and getting double those shots now.

in the meantime, his shots have gradually increased as people have fed him the ball more. you're asking me to 'pretend' like he and Rondo have played for 35 minutes rather than see that he's gotten more shots now.

for ME, that doesn't make sense, especially when the difference is less than 1.0.  That's just my thinking. You all are free to take it or leave it.

  The problem is what you're talking about isn't really happening. When you talk about his minutes going from 20-25 and his shots doubling you're talking about his shots (100% increase) rising faster than his minutes (40%-75% increase). The opposite is true.

  Also, again, there's nothing predictive about per36 numbers. It's just a way of making things easier to compare. This season Green and Rondo have been on the court for 483 minutes and Green's taken about 173 shots in that time. Green's played 1115 minutes without Rondo and he's taken about 375 shots in that time.

  To find out whether he averages more shots per minute with Rondo or without Rondo you'd divide the total number of shots by the total number of minutes for each case. Again, that gives you .36 shots/min with Rondo and .34 shots/minute without Rondo. He's playing more minutes since the injuries started so he's getting more shots per game. But he's still shooting less often when Rondo's not in the game.

  And you're right, the difference is less than 1 shot per36, so it's not much of a difference. But people are claiming that Rondo ignored Green and never passed the ball to Green. That isn't really the case, it's people blaming Rondo for Green's bad start to the season because they didn't see any other reason for the slow start.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: indeedproceed on April 04, 2013, 12:31:17 PM
I just want to step back and take the time to appreciate what Jeff Green has been giving to us. He seems to really be back in NBA shape and recovering prefectly fine from his surgery and really stepping up and taking over a role especially with the injuries flying around.

Over the last ten games, (since his 43 point outburst), Green's has been averaging:

22 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal, while shooting 55% from the field and 53% from the three point line...

He is playing great efficient ball right now just in time for the playoffs role around. And I'd like to give him a friendly digital pat on the back because of it.

I agree. And in his last 10 games he's avg 14.5 FGA, and 16.2 from his last 5...so I want to know how Doc plans to make sure everyone gets the amount of shots they need to be productive, because I def think Jeff needs more than 10 or 12 a night.
Jeff isn't an aggressive offensive player though, and its pretty late in the season to try and force feed him.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4703910/green-and-the-unintentional-takeover#more

Discusses his offense in detail with Jeff/Doc. Doc seems to be pushing him as being more aggressive, which makes sense to me. Coaches have been asking for an aggressive to Green's game forever.

I'm not a 100% sure what your argument is. Are you saying because he isn't aggressive, he shouldn't get 10+ shots or what?

He's saying he isn't naturally aggressive on offense, and that Doc hasn't been holding him back to stymieing his aggression, but has been trying to cultivate it.

BE AGGRESSIVE, B-E AGGRESSIVE, B-E-A-G-G-R-E-S-S-I-V-E, Be Aggressive.

Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Boris Badenov on April 04, 2013, 12:32:20 PM
have we been watching the same Jeff Green play recently? I mean, even since January?
I'd like to think he's turned a corner. He's had some duds, as everyone does, but to say he's still inconsistent, or not aggressive, or what have you. That confuses me.

OK. You think Green has "turned a corner" and become more "aggressive." I assume by that you mean that he's shooting more or taking a bigger role in the offense. And you're confused about why people are focusing on things like shots per minute.

So here's a question: if Green went from playing 20 minutes before the All-Star break to 40 after, and he scored exactly twice as many points per game, would you call that "turning a corner" and/or becoming more "aggressive"?
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: CelticConcourse on April 04, 2013, 12:39:02 PM
I love the dicussion here, but I don't think "cultivating a player to be aggressive" will ever work. He's going to play like always has, and that can get you between 12-22ppg, maybe more if he's the dominant player.

Him scoring 22ppg over the past 10 is pretty absurd, seeing as he has nights where he doesn't even shoot. His FG% is pretty amazing (55%?) for a SF, because compare that to Pierce's career numbers. Green has potential, and I think we can get it out of him.

Should we play him in the starting lineup with Pierce AND KG? I think there's not enough shots to go around with that lineup. I think Green should be the first man off the bench, when KG goes out at the 6.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: Evantime34 on April 04, 2013, 12:42:28 PM
I love the dicussion here, but I don't think "cultivating a player to be aggressive" will ever work. He's going to play like always has, and that can get you between 12-22ppg, maybe more if he's the dominant player.

Him scoring 22ppg over the past 10 is pretty absurd, seeing as he has nights where he doesn't even shoot. His FG% is pretty amazing (55%?) for a SF, because compare that to Pierce's career numbers. Green has potential, and I think we can get it out of him.

Should we play him in the starting lineup with Pierce AND KG? I think there's not enough shots to go around with that lineup. I think Green should be the first man off the bench, when KG goes out at the 6.
Apparently Doc disagrees with you and he will start with Pierce and KG for the rest of the season.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on April 04, 2013, 12:45:49 PM
I just want to step back and take the time to appreciate what Jeff Green has been giving to us. He seems to really be back in NBA shape and recovering prefectly fine from his surgery and really stepping up and taking over a role especially with the injuries flying around.

Over the last ten games, (since his 43 point outburst), Green's has been averaging:

22 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.6 blocks, 1 steal, while shooting 55% from the field and 53% from the three point line...

He is playing great efficient ball right now just in time for the playoffs role around. And I'd like to give him a friendly digital pat on the back because of it.

I agree. And in his last 10 games he's avg 14.5 FGA, and 16.2 from his last 5...so I want to know how Doc plans to make sure everyone gets the amount of shots they need to be productive, because I def think Jeff needs more than 10 or 12 a night.
Jeff isn't an aggressive offensive player though, and its pretty late in the season to try and force feed him.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4703910/green-and-the-unintentional-takeover#more

Discusses his offense in detail with Jeff/Doc. Doc seems to be pushing him as being more aggressive, which makes sense to me. Coaches have been asking for an aggressive to Green's game forever.

I'm not a 100% sure what your argument is. Are you saying because he isn't aggressive, he shouldn't get 10+ shots or what?

He's saying he isn't naturally aggressive on offense, and that Doc hasn't been holding him back to stymieing his aggression, but has been trying to cultivate it.

BE AGGRESSIVE, B-E AGGRESSIVE, B-E-A-G-G-R-E-S-S-I-V-E, Be Aggressive.

Thank you for the cheer. Wasn't necessary though.
I didn't get the argument because my question was how does Doc plan to get him between 10-15 shots a game, especially if he starts with KG and PP.
I don't think aggression is the problem. Jeff just doesn't want to be the #1 guy. Doesn't mean he can't be aggressive. What I've seen from him is what I would categorize as aggressive. So that threw me, and thus, I asked for clarification.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on April 04, 2013, 12:51:59 PM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.



and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

nope, Rondo is the reason the guy never got the ball...ROndo was standing around warching the world go by dribbling the seconds of the clock.

Doc and More ROndo will kill the team.

  Green took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has playing without Rondo. It's not true that Rondo never got him the ball. People who were saying that were blaming Rondo for Green's poor start to the season because it didn't occur to them that his being rusty and recovering from surgery might be the cause.

first off, BballTim, you know I completely disagree with that 'fact'. In 20 minutes of playing time, he'd get 8 shots. We all know now that Green needs at lease 12.

Like I said, there was one game, I think against the Hawks, where I checked the box score and he had 10 points off 3/10 shooting and I hung my head. 7 shots later, he had 27 points or something.

I'm not using per36 for those stats because his per36 stats would say hes not going to perform as well as he has now in his actual play time. Stats and Real life are 2 diff things

  You're not using per36 stats because you don't understand what they represent. People think they mean "if a player was on the court for 36 minutes every game they'd average x" but that's not the case. It's an easily understandable way to discuss per minute stats.

  Say PP plays 36 minutes a game and averages 19 ppg and Chris Copeland, playing for the Knicks, plays 13 min/game and averages 7 ppg. Paul's per36 is 19 ppg and Copeland's per36 is 20 ppg. Is Copeland a better scorer than PP? Unlikely. If Copeland tripled his minutes and spent more time on the court with the starters playing against other starters would he triple his scoring average? Probably not. Per36 numbers don't predict what a player would do if he played 36 minutes a game, they just measure what he does when he plays on a per minute basis and normalizes the number for 36 minutes.

  And why do they normalize the number to per36? Because it's easier to visualize. What if I told you, for instance, when Green's playing with Rondo he averages .36 shots per minute. Is that a lot? Is that a little? What if he averaged .34 shots per minute without Rondo? Is that much of a difference? You'd have to multiply those numbers out to more understandable  totals to make any determinations. That's what per36 does, it isn't any type of projection at all. It's all real life.

  Those numbers (.36 and .34 shots/minute) are (roughly) 12.9 and 12.1 shots per 36. Do we have a much better idea of whether 13 shots per 36 minutes is a little or a lot than .36 shots per minute? Probably. But whether you talk about per minute or per36 minute totals, it's still a *fact* that Green shot the ball more often playing with Rondo than he has when Rondo hasn't been on the court with him.

Second off, I think Rondo just didn't trust Jeff and I'm hoping now that doc seems to trust him a lil more, then Rondo will do the same.

  Again, this is silliness. We've seen Rondo make plenty of passes to players like Bradley, Steamer, Scal, Baby and Sheed. Why would he trust all of them but not Green? Why would Green shoot more often with Rondo playing than with Rondo on the bench if Rondo didn't trust him? This is just a claim made by people who blamed Green's poor start this year on Rondo because they never considered that taking a year off or coming back from surgery might be the culprit.

you just proved my point and continued to use per36. you want me to believe he got more touches with Rondo because it's at 12.8. But you went ahead and said just because a person's on the floor for 36 minutes doesn't mean it will happen. Well ta-da.

you're talking about stats. I'm talking about THE ACTUAL GAME.

 I'm talking about THE ACTUAL GAME. I'm talking about what Green did in the 483 MINUTES HE'S PLAYED WITH RONDO THIS YEAR and comparing it to the 1115 MINUTES HE'S PLAYED WITHOUT RONDO *this season*. Per36 doesn't imply 36 minutes per game in any way, shape or form it's about what a player does on average in 36 minutes of play whether that 36 minute happens in one game or over the course of a month. If you don't understand the math involved or why per36 isn't predictive that's fine.

and if you think Rondo didn't trust some of the 'new guys', I don't know what to tell you. we've had several debates on this board about who Rondo is talking about when he says guys are in the locker room laughing and joking, etc. now, that's not fact, that's not stats, that's my own interpretation. They were having problems in the locker room. It's 9 new guys.

  I don't recall Rondo saying that but even if he did that's not evidence that he refused to pass it to them during games. One would assume that if Rondo refused to pass the ball to everyone but KG and PP for half a season Doc would put a stop to it, but the fact is it never happened.

I wasn't trying to make Rondo seem petty, I'm just saying if you're playing with KG and PP with whom you've played years with, you're probably gonna be more apt to pass it to them rather than a Jeff Green or a Courtney Lee or what have you.

I'm not sure how these aren't perfectly logical deductions. But alright.

  I would hope our point guard would have the sense to pass the ball to KG and PP more often than he does to Courtney Lee, they're significantly better offensive players than he is. The same way Rondo passed the ball to Ray (not exactly his bosom buddy) much more often than he passed the ball to Perk (possibly his best friend). This isn't youth basketball where the goal is to make sure everyone on the team gets the same amount of shots.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on April 04, 2013, 12:52:21 PM
have we been watching the same Jeff Green play recently? I mean, even since January?
I'd like to think he's turned a corner. He's had some duds, as everyone does, but to say he's still inconsistent, or not aggressive, or what have you. That confuses me.

OK. You think Green has "turned a corner" and become more "aggressive." I assume by that you mean that he's shooting more or taking a bigger role in the offense. And you're confused about why people are focusing on things like shots per minute.

So here's a question: if Green went from playing 20 minutes before the All-Star break to 40 after, and he scored exactly twice as many points per game, would you call that "turning a corner" and/or becoming more "aggressive"?

I'm not confused about why we're talking about shots per minute, but about why people are still saying he's inconsistent and un (or is it non?) aggressive.

Since January, I feel like he's been playing better. More aggressive in taking it to the rim. More consistent in his individual game plan each night.

To your question, perhaps you could. But it's not all about the box score, which is what I'm saying. In watching him play, he's turned a corner. He's not as timid, he's more decisive, seems to have a little more hustle, etc.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: kgainez on April 04, 2013, 12:54:42 PM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.



and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

nope, Rondo is the reason the guy never got the ball...ROndo was standing around warching the world go by dribbling the seconds of the clock.

Doc and More ROndo will kill the team.

  Green took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has playing without Rondo. It's not true that Rondo never got him the ball. People who were saying that were blaming Rondo for Green's poor start to the season because it didn't occur to them that his being rusty and recovering from surgery might be the cause.

first off, BballTim, you know I completely disagree with that 'fact'. In 20 minutes of playing time, he'd get 8 shots. We all know now that Green needs at lease 12.

Like I said, there was one game, I think against the Hawks, where I checked the box score and he had 10 points off 3/10 shooting and I hung my head. 7 shots later, he had 27 points or something.

I'm not using per36 for those stats because his per36 stats would say hes not going to perform as well as he has now in his actual play time. Stats and Real life are 2 diff things

  You're not using per36 stats because you don't understand what they represent. People think they mean "if a player was on the court for 36 minutes every game they'd average x" but that's not the case. It's an easily understandable way to discuss per minute stats.

  Say PP plays 36 minutes a game and averages 19 ppg and Chris Copeland, playing for the Knicks, plays 13 min/game and averages 7 ppg. Paul's per36 is 19 ppg and Copeland's per36 is 20 ppg. Is Copeland a better scorer than PP? Unlikely. If Copeland tripled his minutes and spent more time on the court with the starters playing against other starters would he triple his scoring average? Probably not. Per36 numbers don't predict what a player would do if he played 36 minutes a game, they just measure what he does when he plays on a per minute basis and normalizes the number for 36 minutes.

  And why do they normalize the number to per36? Because it's easier to visualize. What if I told you, for instance, when Green's playing with Rondo he averages .36 shots per minute. Is that a lot? Is that a little? What if he averaged .34 shots per minute without Rondo? Is that much of a difference? You'd have to multiply those numbers out to more understandable  totals to make any determinations. That's what per36 does, it isn't any type of projection at all. It's all real life.

  Those numbers (.36 and .34 shots/minute) are (roughly) 12.9 and 12.1 shots per 36. Do we have a much better idea of whether 13 shots per 36 minutes is a little or a lot than .36 shots per minute? Probably. But whether you talk about per minute or per36 minute totals, it's still a *fact* that Green shot the ball more often playing with Rondo than he has when Rondo hasn't been on the court with him.

Second off, I think Rondo just didn't trust Jeff and I'm hoping now that doc seems to trust him a lil more, then Rondo will do the same.

  Again, this is silliness. We've seen Rondo make plenty of passes to players like Bradley, Steamer, Scal, Baby and Sheed. Why would he trust all of them but not Green? Why would Green shoot more often with Rondo playing than with Rondo on the bench if Rondo didn't trust him? This is just a claim made by people who blamed Green's poor start this year on Rondo because they never considered that taking a year off or coming back from surgery might be the culprit.

you just proved my point and continued to use per36. you want me to believe he got more touches with Rondo because it's at 12.8. But you went ahead and said just because a person's on the floor for 36 minutes doesn't mean it will happen. Well ta-da.

you're talking about stats. I'm talking about THE ACTUAL GAME.

 I'm talking about THE ACTUAL GAME. I'm talking about what Green did in the 483 MINUTES HE'S PLAYED WITH RONDO THIS YEAR and comparing it to the 1115 MINUTES HE'S PLAYED WITHOUT RONDO *this season*. Per36 doesn't imply 36 minutes per game in any way, shape or form it's about what a player does on average in 36 minutes of play whether that 36 minute happens in one game or over the course of a month. If you don't understand the math involved or why per36 isn't predictive that's fine.

and if you think Rondo didn't trust some of the 'new guys', I don't know what to tell you. we've had several debates on this board about who Rondo is talking about when he says guys are in the locker room laughing and joking, etc. now, that's not fact, that's not stats, that's my own interpretation. They were having problems in the locker room. It's 9 new guys.

  I don't recall Rondo saying that but even if he did that's not evidence that he refused to pass it to them during games. One would assume that if Rondo refused to pass the ball to everyone but KG and PP for half a season Doc would put a stop to it, but the fact is it never happened.

I wasn't trying to make Rondo seem petty, I'm just saying if you're playing with KG and PP with whom you've played years with, you're probably gonna be more apt to pass it to them rather than a Jeff Green or a Courtney Lee or what have you.

I'm not sure how these aren't perfectly logical deductions. But alright.

  I would hope our point guard would have the sense to pass the ball to KG and PP more often than he does to Courtney Lee, they're significantly better offensive players than he is. The same way Rondo passed the ball to Ray (not exactly his bosom buddy) much more often than he passed the ball to Perk (possibly his best friend). This isn't youth basketball where the goal is to make sure everyone on the team gets the same amount of shots.


we have two different viewpoints. i've said that and i stand by what i said.
i'm not about to waste my time with you, especially if we can't agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Jeff Green - top 5 SF in 2 years
Post by: BballTim on April 04, 2013, 01:00:22 PM
not to mention he's avging 22.5 for his 11 starts, which would put him at 8th in the league.



and I think he and Rondo will create lots of magic. Dude will get wide open lanes to the rim.

nope, Rondo is the reason the guy never got the ball...ROndo was standing around warching the world go by dribbling the seconds of the clock.

Doc and More ROndo will kill the team.

  Green took more shots per minute playing with Rondo than he has playing without Rondo. It's not true that Rondo never got him the ball. People who were saying that were blaming Rondo for Green's poor start to the season because it didn't occur to them that his being rusty and recovering from surgery might be the cause.

first off, BballTim, you know I completely disagree with that 'fact'. In 20 minutes of playing time, he'd get 8 shots. We all know now that Green needs at lease 12.

Like I said, there was one game, I think against the Hawks, where I checked the box score and he had 10 points off 3/10 shooting and I hung my head. 7 shots later, he had 27 points or something.

I'm not using per36 for those stats because his per36 stats would say hes not going to perform as well as he has now in his actual play time. Stats and Real life are 2 diff things

  You're not using per36 stats because you don't understand what they represent. People think they mean "if a player was on the court for 36 minutes every game they'd average x" but that's not the case. It's an easily understandable way to discuss per minute stats.

  Say PP plays 36 minutes a game and averages 19 ppg and Chris Copeland, playing for the Knicks, plays 13 min/game and averages 7 ppg. Paul's per36 is 19 ppg and Copeland's per36 is 20 ppg. Is Copeland a better scorer than PP? Unlikely. If Copeland tripled his minutes and spent more time on the court with the starters playing against other starters would he triple his scoring average? Probably not. Per36 numbers don't predict what a player would do if he played 36 minutes a game, they just measure what he does when he plays on a per minute basis and normalizes the number for 36 minutes.

  And why do they normalize the number to per36? Because it's easier to visualize. What if I told you, for instance, when Green's playing with Rondo he ave