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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: BleedGreen1989 on January 21, 2013, 04:33:20 PM

Title: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: BleedGreen1989 on January 21, 2013, 04:33:20 PM
Thoughts?
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Interceptor on January 21, 2013, 04:36:41 PM
I'm in. Why not? Worst that happens is we get our teeth kicked in by another crappy team. Let's also start Sullinger, and Bass is 13th man.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Scribbles on January 21, 2013, 04:37:59 PM
No. What's Jeff Green done to earn a starting spot?
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: BleedGreen1989 on January 21, 2013, 04:39:16 PM
I'm in. Why not? Worst that happens is we get our teeth kicked in by another crappy team. Let's also start Sullinger, and Bass is 13th man.

It would effectively keep Pierce's minutes down and we could finally see how Green performs as a starter. Bass can be waterboy
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: diconzo on January 21, 2013, 04:40:22 PM
Yes. Start Green and let Rondo feed him buckets. Pierce should be considered an instant offense player at this point, not a primary option/only option/leading scorer on a contender (He's 35). We need to put the players who can't create their own shot and need help to play with Rondo. Like Green, AB, KG (at this point in his career). Starting PF is a whole separate topic (Torn between Bass & Sully)
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 04:41:41 PM
No. What's Jeff Green done to earn a starting spot?

Ditto.  The "Green just needs an opportunity" myth is false, especially in light of the fact that Green's per-minute production over the last few years has stayed remarkably steady.  This Jeff Green is the Jeff Green we're going to get, period.

Since 2008, the strength of our team has been the starting lineup.  I think the team took a hit when that starting lineup was initially broken up, and I think sending Pierce to the bench would only make that things worse.  That's without even mentioning that Pierce is a vastly superior player to Green.  I just don't see how benching our best scorer is going to help anything.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: BleedGreen1989 on January 21, 2013, 04:44:27 PM
Lets follow the Ginobli path, seems to work for them. Pierce could always finish games and likely would
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: ScottHow on January 21, 2013, 04:44:47 PM
No thanks. Now if you want to get a "Start Sully" Thread going, then I'm there.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Interceptor on January 21, 2013, 04:47:55 PM
Ditto.  The "Green just needs an opportunity" myth is false, especially in light of the fact that Green's per-minute production over the last few years has stayed remarkably steady.  This Jeff Green is the Jeff Green we're going to get, period.
The myth is a myth; I don't accept the notion that your starting five has to be your best five players. Was Sefolosha better than Harden? I don't see a problem with Green being our starting SF on the floor with Rondo. He's not a better player than Pierce, but he doesn't need to be.

Also, JG doesn't jack up bricks, and this will help keep me from losing my voice while watching games. Admittedly this is a selfish reason.

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I just don't see how benching our best scorer is going to help anything.
Well, he's sixth man in this scenario. He's going to get a lot of minutes still, and will be playing against the bench of the other team for the most part. He can still be on the floor for his trademark "clogged toilet" iso at the end of games. Maybe the match-up against bench players helps cover for his age.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: wdleehi on January 21, 2013, 04:53:11 PM
Ditto.  The "Green just needs an opportunity" myth is false, especially in light of the fact that Green's per-minute production over the last few years has stayed remarkably steady.  This Jeff Green is the Jeff Green we're going to get, period.
The myth is a myth; I don't accept the notion that your starting five has to be your best five players. Was Sefolosha better than Harden? I don't see a problem with Green being our starting SF on the floor with Rondo. He's not a better player than Pierce, but he doesn't need to be.

Also, JG doesn't jack up bricks, and this will help keep me from losing my voice while watching games. Admittedly this is a selfish reason.

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I just don't see how benching our best scorer is going to help anything.
Well, he's sixth man in this scenario. He's going to get a lot of minutes still, and will be playing against the bench of the other team for the most part. He can still be on the floor for his trademark "clogged toilet" iso at the end of games. Maybe the match-up against bench players helps cover for his age.



Who would be the Celtics Duncan/Parker in terms of scoring?



Who would be the Celtics Durrant/Westbrook?


Rondo isn't that type of scorer, yet would likely be the 2nd best offensive weapon after KG with a starting Green. 


And Green is not a myth.  He is consistent season after season.  It is as a role player.   
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: MBunge on January 21, 2013, 04:54:15 PM
I just don't see how benching our best scorer is going to help anything.

So....we do what?  Sit around and twiddle our thumbs while waiting for a magic fairy to solve everything?  I'm not sure starting Green over Pierce is a good move, but this team is currently trying to hang onto the 8th playoff spot in the East and, with the season about half over, have essentially played maybe 4 or 5 really good games all season.  What's the downside to trying it?  Hurting Pierce's feelings?

Mike
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: jbaerg on January 21, 2013, 04:54:43 PM
Don't see why not. Might as well give it a shot, nothing else is working.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: mctyson on January 21, 2013, 04:55:35 PM
No. What's Jeff Green done to earn a starting spot?

Ditto.  The "Green just needs an opportunity" myth is false, especially in light of the fact that Green's per-minute production over the last few years has stayed remarkably steady.  This Jeff Green is the Jeff Green we're going to get, period.

Since 2008, the strength of our team has been the starting lineup.  I think the team took a hit when that starting lineup was initially broken up, and I think sending Pierce to the bench would only make that things worse.  That's without even mentioning that Pierce is a vastly superior player to Green.  I just don't see how benching our best scorer is going to help anything.

This whole comment completely avoids the fact that Jeff Green is a superior defender at this point in his career, and that our whole system is built on defense.

But hey, by all means, let's ignore that.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: MBunge on January 21, 2013, 04:56:42 PM

Who would be the Celtics Duncan/Parker in terms of scoring?



Who would be the Celtics Durrant/Westbrook?


Rondo isn't that type of scorer, yet would likely be the 2nd best offensive weapon after KG with a starting Green. 


And Green is not a myth.  He is consistent season after season.  It is as a role player.

Here's a newsflash.  There's nobody on Boston who's Parker/Duncan or Westbrook/Durant.  If that approach is the only way to win, why are we even bothering?

Mike
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: wdleehi on January 21, 2013, 05:01:26 PM

Who would be the Celtics Duncan/Parker in terms of scoring?



Who would be the Celtics Durrant/Westbrook?


Rondo isn't that type of scorer, yet would likely be the 2nd best offensive weapon after KG with a starting Green. 


And Green is not a myth.  He is consistent season after season.  It is as a role player.

Here's a newsflash.  There's nobody on Boston who's Parker/Duncan or Westbrook/Durant.  If that approach is the only way to win, why are we even bothering?

Mike


No, that's why the Celtics still has Pierce.


The best offensive and defensive (as well as rebounding, passing and of course leadership) SF that the Celtics have. 




Do the Celtics need a change?  Probably.  But the change most likely needs to be a change in personal.  I just wished Green was more consistent so he could build some real trade value.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 21, 2013, 05:03:10 PM
might as well try it , see what happens.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Interceptor on January 21, 2013, 05:07:57 PM
Who would be the Celtics Duncan/Parker in terms of scoring?



Who would be the Celtics Durrant/Westbrook?


Rondo isn't that type of scorer, yet would likely be the 2nd best offensive weapon after KG with a starting Green.
I'm not saying to copy OKC or SAS: we don't have the bodies. I'm just pointing out that you don't need to start your best five players. This is a team game, a match-up game.

Although I would disagree that Rondo is not a scorer. He can do it, we know he can, he just doesn't. And facilitating is fine. Who is OKC's Rondo? Westbrook is a SG.

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And Green is not a myth.  He is consistent season after season.  It is as a role player.
Green is not the myth, the myth is "Green needs an opportunity". Who is asserting this? Nobody in this thread. You don't start Green expecting him to replace Paul Pierce, you start Green with the intention of getting Green. We know what he can do, let's use it.

Why not? What's the worst that can happen? We're already losing winnable games to garbage teams, you can't do any worse than that.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 05:08:00 PM
The myth is a myth

Clearly, you haven't read the blog enough if you don't think a large percentage of bloggers think that Jeff Green's "struggles" are because of lack of playing time / lack of shots / lack of starting.

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Also, JG doesn't jack up bricks, and this will help keep me from losing my voice while watching games. Admittedly this is a selfish reason.

Paul Pierce has a .547 TS% and a .491 eFG%.  That's low by his standards, but significantly better than Green's .547 / .491.  If you're worried about bricks, the last thing you should want is a larger role for Jeff Green.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 05:09:35 PM
I just don't see how benching our best scorer is going to help anything.

So....we do what?  Sit around and twiddle our thumbs while waiting for a magic fairy to solve everything?  I'm not sure starting Green over Pierce is a good move, but this team is currently trying to hang onto the 8th playoff spot in the East and, with the season about half over, have essentially played maybe 4 or 5 really good games all season.  What's the downside to trying it?  Hurting Pierce's feelings?

Mike

Do something logical, like trying to feed Sully more in the post.  That makes a ton more sense than rewarding the schizophrenic Jeff Green with a larger role.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 05:13:02 PM
No. What's Jeff Green done to earn a starting spot?

Ditto.  The "Green just needs an opportunity" myth is false, especially in light of the fact that Green's per-minute production over the last few years has stayed remarkably steady.  This Jeff Green is the Jeff Green we're going to get, period.

Since 2008, the strength of our team has been the starting lineup.  I think the team took a hit when that starting lineup was initially broken up, and I think sending Pierce to the bench would only make that things worse.  That's without even mentioning that Pierce is a vastly superior player to Green.  I just don't see how benching our best scorer is going to help anything.

This whole comment completely avoids the fact that Jeff Green is a superior defender at this point in his career, and that our whole system is built on defense.

But hey, by all means, let's ignore that.

I don't buy it.  In fact, they've both given up the exact same points allowed per possession.  That's with Pierce defending starters, and Green largely defending bench players.

Add in the offensive disparity, and there should be no question about who the better player is.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Interceptor on January 21, 2013, 05:19:33 PM
Clearly, you haven't read the blog enough if you don't think a large percentage of bloggers think that Jeff Green's "struggles" are because of lack of playing time / lack of shots / lack of starting.
This song is not about me. I say the myth is a myth because there are reasons to start JG that have nothing to do with his performance relative to Pierce. He doesn't need to be magic, he just has to do fun things like dunk on people and run in transition.

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Paul Pierce has a .547 TS% and a .491 eFG%.  That's low by his standards, but significantly better than Green's .547 / .491.  If you're worried about bricks, the last thing you should want is a larger role for Jeff Green.
Here's the thing about PP's bricks: we don't usually get them back, and he doesn't get fouled on them either. JG at least does the thing where he misses going to the basket, but he either gets whacked in the process or Sullinger someone gets the ball.

Also, JG likes doing those clock-running-out Hail-Mary-halfcourt hurls for some reason. I am sure that hurts his shooting percentages, and I don't consider them to be real shots.

Now, I don't have data for any of those things, but I don't even care if JG still sucks by advanced metrics. I'm frustrated enough with the team that I'd say it's still worth trying.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 05:23:46 PM
Here's the thing about PP's bricks: we don't usually get them back, and he doesn't get fouled on them either. JG at least does the thing where he misses going to the basket, but he either gets whacked in the process or Sullinger someone gets the ball.

Do you have any evidence for this?

Quote
Also, JG likes doing those clock-running-out Hail-Mary-halfcourt hurls for some reason. I am sure that hurts his shooting percentages, and I don't consider them to be real shots.

Or this?

Quote
Now, I don't have data for any of those things, but I don't even care if JG still sucks by advanced metrics. I'm frustrated enough with the team that I'd say it's still worth trying.

Gotcha.  No evidence, but let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you and I rarely agree, so all is right in the world I guess.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Interceptor on January 21, 2013, 05:32:05 PM
Do you have any evidence for this?
Knowing someone would ask, I went out of my way to say that I didn't; this is kind of inflammatory for no particular reason.

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Gotcha.  No evidence, but let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you and I rarely agree, so all is right in the world I guess.
"Bench" doesn't mean he gets sent to Siberia. Pierce can still get a lot of minutes coming off the bench. We've had games where the bench scoring rescued the team. I don't see why Pierce can't be a part of this. I actually like it when both Pierce and Green are on the floor at the same time, and we get more of it with this scenario.

EDIT: and this is a team that started Collins for a little bit. That didn't work, but at least they tried something different.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: ItStaysYang on January 21, 2013, 05:33:19 PM
Here's the thing about PP's bricks: we don't usually get them back, and he doesn't get fouled on them either. JG at least does the thing where he misses going to the basket, but he either gets whacked in the process or Sullinger someone gets the ball.

Do you have any evidence for this?

Quote
Also, JG likes doing those clock-running-out Hail-Mary-halfcourt hurls for some reason. I am sure that hurts his shooting percentages, and I don't consider them to be real shots.

Or this?

Quote
Now, I don't have data for any of those things, but I don't even care if JG still sucks by advanced metrics. I'm frustrated enough with the team that I'd say it's still worth trying.

Gotcha.  No evidence, but let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you and I rarely agree, so all is right in the world I guess.

If that's how you feel, then do you care to explain why Green is earning a STARTING SALARY?
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: wdleehi on January 21, 2013, 05:35:14 PM
Do you have any evidence for this?
Knowing someone would ask, I went out of my way to say that I didn't; this is kind of inflammatory for no particular reason.

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Gotcha.  No evidence, but let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you and I rarely agree, so all is right in the world I guess.
"Bench" doesn't mean he gets sent to Siberia. Pierce can still get a lot of minutes coming off the bench. We've had games where the bench scoring rescued the team. I don't see why Pierce can't be a part of this. I actually like it when both Pierce and Green are on the floor at the same time, and we get more of it with this scenario.


They already have someone off the bench that can do that if they would put the ball in his hand when Rondo is off the court and stop trying to fit him into the Ray role. 




I still think Terry can be a big time bench scorer for the Celtics if they let him do what was successful for him in the past. 
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 05:36:07 PM
Here's the thing about PP's bricks: we don't usually get them back, and he doesn't get fouled on them either. JG at least does the thing where he misses going to the basket, but he either gets whacked in the process or Sullinger someone gets the ball.

Do you have any evidence for this?

Quote
Also, JG likes doing those clock-running-out Hail-Mary-halfcourt hurls for some reason. I am sure that hurts his shooting percentages, and I don't consider them to be real shots.

Or this?

Quote
Now, I don't have data for any of those things, but I don't even care if JG still sucks by advanced metrics. I'm frustrated enough with the team that I'd say it's still worth trying.

Gotcha.  No evidence, but let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you and I rarely agree, so all is right in the world I guess.

If that's how you feel, then do you care to explain why Green is earning a STARTING SALARY?

I'm not following your point.  Because Danny Ainge gave him one?  Because he has a good agent?

Of course, Pierce is earning an even higher salary, so if that's relevant at all, I guess the job stays Pierce's.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Onslaught on January 21, 2013, 05:36:14 PM
Here's the thing about PP's bricks: we don't usually get them back, and he doesn't get fouled on them either. JG at least does the thing where he misses going to the basket, but he either gets whacked in the process or Sullinger someone gets the ball.

Do you have any evidence for this?

Quote
Also, JG likes doing those clock-running-out Hail-Mary-halfcourt hurls for some reason. I am sure that hurts his shooting percentages, and I don't consider them to be real shots.

Or this?

Quote
Now, I don't have data for any of those things, but I don't even care if JG still sucks by advanced metrics. I'm frustrated enough with the team that I'd say it's still worth trying.

Gotcha.  No evidence, but let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but you and I rarely agree, so all is right in the world I guess.

If that's how you feel, then do you care to explain why Green is earning a STARTING SALARY?

A mistake.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: cltc5 on January 21, 2013, 05:40:09 PM
No. What's Jeff Green done to earn a starting spot?
this
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Atzar on January 21, 2013, 05:41:21 PM
He's done nothing to show that he deserves to start. 

I just don't think he's as talented as people think he is.  He has an inconsistent jumpshot, a rudimentary postgame, a poor first step, and an inability to change directions with the ball.  He's also not rebounding, but we expected this already.

If he's ever going to be reliable as a scorer, then he desperately needs to improve his footwork.  In my opinion, that's the root of many of his problems.  Better footwork would give him a greater ability to produce off the bounce, a much-improved ability to score in the post, and would improve his jumpshot by helping him with balance and mechanical consistency. 

Until then, he's going to be a guy who struggles to create offense despite excellent running and jumping ability for his size. 
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: MBunge on January 21, 2013, 05:42:24 PM
let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems. 

Last 10 games, Pierce has been shooting 42% from the field.

Last 10 games, Green has been shooting 47% from the field.

The idea behind starting Green is to get the team playing differently.  It might work.  It might not.  But if this team can't go any farther than Pierce is going to carry it this year, why are we wasting time caring about a team that has no shot to win it all?

Mike
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: BleedGreen1989 on January 21, 2013, 05:45:39 PM
I agree this move might be pulling at straws a bit but what else is there to do with our current roster? Green at least gives Rondo SOMEBODY to run with and some needed athleticism. Pierce would still likely play more minutes than Green and Pierce could play point foward with the bench. I think we can all agree that Sully>Bass but Bass gets the start.

I'm not saying this is going to save our season but at least it's something that may change the dynamic of our team. Maybe it blows up and doesn't work but you can't sit still and hope it all works out
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 05:46:37 PM
let's bench our best scorer when we're having offensive problems. 

Last 10 games, Pierce has been shooting 42% from the field.

Last 10 games, Green has been shooting 47% from the field.

The idea behind starting Green is to get the team playing differently.  It might work.  It might not.  But if this team can't go any farther than Pierce is going to carry it this year, why are we wasting time caring about a team that has no shot to win it all?

Mike

I don't think it's worth risking isolating Pierce to promote a mediocre player who is performing almost exactly at his career averages.

I mean, why not start Wilcox over KG, just to shake things up?  It makes about equal sense to me.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: wiley on January 21, 2013, 05:47:51 PM
If, as some feel, Jeff's not good enough to start the game, and Pierce keeps playing like he has been, then we need to trade both of them and get some SF's who can do what it takes to deal with Miami....

Kirilenko?  Ariza?  Matt Barnes? Corey Brewer?  Wilson Chandler?  Martell Webster?
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 05:49:01 PM
I'm a bit surprised by the "it may not work, but we need to do something" argument, with few suggesting *why* this move will improve the team.

Pierce's shooting has been off his career norms this year, but he's having an excellent, all-star caliber season.  He hasn't been the problem, and he's not the one who needs to have his role screwed with.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: ScoobyDoo on January 21, 2013, 05:49:11 PM
I am incredibly unconcerned with ruining the current chemistry and dominance this Celtics team is displaying by making changes to the lineup.

In fact, after last night's game against Detroit, I would seriously consider calling up Melo and starting him with KG, Green, Lee and Bradley for the next game. Just tell the other guys you think they seem tired, need some rest.

I'd bring Sully and Barbosa off the bench and only remotely consider using everyone else.

Start Green? Sure, I wouldn't be too concerned about hurting anyone's feelings. I think the team has pretty much hurt everyone's feelings with the way they've played so far - with the lack of consistent effort and heart.

1. Hurt the owners who are paying them millions to at least work hard.
2. Hurt the coaches who are trying to put them into a position to win. (though that seems debatable as well sometimes)
3. Hurt the fans who have no idea what to expect game to game - but at least hope for hard work and effort, if not a win.

I thought maybe we should have started Green from day 1.

Like someone else said, see what he can Rondo can do together. The Rondo / Bradley / Green uptempo game.


Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: ScoobyDoo on January 21, 2013, 05:51:13 PM
I understand also continuing to start Pierce but something has to change with regards to personnel. maybe if Pierce doesn't have it go to Green early.   

Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 05:52:22 PM
If, as some feel, Jeff's not good enough to start the game, and Pierce keeps playing like he has been, then we need to trade both of them and get some SF's who can do what it takes to deal with Miami....

Kirilenko?  Ariza?  Matt Barnes? Corey Brewer?  Wilson Chandler?  Martell Webster?

Pierce has been fine.  He's been playing at an all-star level for a SF.

Green is a below average starter.

Seriously?  Barnes or Webster over Pierce?  Yeah...
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: ScoobyDoo on January 21, 2013, 05:53:56 PM
Glen Davis was a role player until he went to Orlando.

He's put up better numbers and has grown as a player since becoming a starter down there.

Avery Bradley was basically a scrub until Ray went down and he was pushed into starting.


Jeff Green certainly "appears" to be a role player at this point, but who knows what he will do as a starter. He may stink it up or reach another level. I don't anyone can say for certain.

 
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Who on January 21, 2013, 05:56:05 PM
I would like to see Pierce get a quick hook now and again.

There have been quite a few nights this season where he clearly hasn't had it and needed to be placed on the bench. Jeff Green should get opportunities alongside the starters in those instances.

Doc needs to show less loyalty to Pierce. He isn't reliable enough anymore to warrant it.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Atzar on January 21, 2013, 05:57:11 PM
Glen Davis was a role player until he went to Orlando.

He's put up better numbers and has grown as a player since becoming a starter down there.

Avery Bradley was basically a scrub until Ray went down and he was pushed into starting.


Jeff Green certainly "appears" to be a role player at this point, but who knows what he will do as a starter. He may stink it up or reach another level. I don't anyone can say for certain.

Green was a starter for three years at OKC. 
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Who on January 21, 2013, 05:58:21 PM
Green is a below average starter.
I agree but I also think Green is well capable of becoming an above average starting small forward with a bit of work.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 05:59:50 PM
Glen Davis was a role player until he went to Orlando.

He's put up better numbers and has grown as a player since becoming a starter down there.

Avery Bradley was basically a scrub until Ray went down and he was pushed into starting.


Jeff Green certainly "appears" to be a role player at this point, but who knows what he will do as a starter. He may stink it up or reach another level. I don't anyone can say for certain.

Again, his per-minute averages are the exact same now as they were in OKC.  Look at his Per-36 Minutes averages:

2010:  14.7 points
2011: 14.8 points
2011 (OKC): 14.8 points
2011 (BOS):  14.9 points
2013:  14.7 points

Regardless of whether Green is starting or coming off the bench, adjusting to a new team or comfortable in his role, playing in Boston or Oklahoma City, he's the same player.



Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Interceptor on January 21, 2013, 06:01:00 PM
I'm a bit surprised by the "it may not work, but we need to do something" argument, with few suggesting *why* this move will improve the team.
It isn't like it's being suggested for no reason. Pierce is a better player than Green, but Green has advantages over Pierce that can be exploited in the first unit. How about those transition buckets? How about attacking the rim? How about a post game?

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Pierce's shooting has been off his career norms this year, but he's having an excellent, all-star caliber season.  He hasn't been the problem, and he's not the one who needs to have his role screwed with.
He can have an all-star season off the bench, too. I don't know how this has an impact on his role, since in either case he's being asked to score. Nobody is asking him to sit in the corner and shoot threes or run around screens all day.

I don't understand the implicit holiness of a starting position. Why can't we put Pierce against bench scrubs for easy points, and have him fresh on the floor at the end of close games? Isn't that still a good use of his talent?
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 06:01:10 PM
Green is a below average starter.
I agree but I also think Green is well capable of becoming an above average starting small forward with a bit of work.

I don't think he has the makeup for it.  He lacks passion or aggressiveness or killer instinct.  Whatever it is, it's vital to being a good player, and Green hasn't shown it.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 21, 2013, 06:01:12 PM
I don't hate the idea.

Pierce's same MPG gets condensed.  I have felt for a while that Pierce sits too long on the  bench in stretches and gets out of rhythm.  Start JG and bring Pierce in at the 6 minute mark (Pierce at the 2 or 3; maybe leave Jeff in depending upon the match-ups and Jeff's play).  Pierce then plays 15 out the remaining 18 minutes in each half, and plays some of it against lesser talent.

I do think this makes our starting lineup a worse scoring lineup, but a KG, Sully, Green, AB, RR lineup can play D and rebound.  Pierce, Bass, Lee, Barbosa, and Terry can all score off the bench.  Still need another solid big along with Wilcox.

I think this shakeup may be worth a try.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: KGs Knee on January 21, 2013, 06:01:18 PM

Green has never been a better player, is not a better player, and will never be a better player.  Pierce is HOF.  Green is not.  That is the TRUTH!

I still might be inclined to give Green a chance, however.  Don't know till you try.  Pierce should be able to beast on reserves and improve his efficiency, while lowering his overall minutes.  Green gets his chance to see if he is worth the loot.

Might as well find out what we got ASAP.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Atzar on January 21, 2013, 06:02:36 PM
Green is a below average starter.
I agree but I also think Green is well capable of becoming an above average starting small forward with a bit of work.

It's all in the footwork for him, but he hasn't shown progress in that area since he came into the league.  I'm not sure I'd expect him to suddenly get it now.  I'm hopeful, but not expectant. 
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: BleedGreen1989 on January 21, 2013, 06:02:57 PM
Glen Davis was a role player until he went to Orlando.

He's put up better numbers and has grown as a player since becoming a starter down there.

Avery Bradley was basically a scrub until Ray went down and he was pushed into starting.


Jeff Green certainly "appears" to be a role player at this point, but who knows what he will do as a starter. He may stink it up or reach another level. I don't anyone can say for certain.


Again, his per-minute averages are the exact same now as they were in OKC.  Look at his Per-36 Minutes averages:

2010:  14.7 points
2011: 14.8 points
2011 (OKC): 14.8 points
2011 (BOS):  14.9 points
2013:  14.7 points

Regardless of whether Green is starting or coming off the bench, adjusting to a new team or comfortable in his role, playing in Boston or Oklahoma City, he's the same player.

I'm not thinking that Green will suddenly become an all star with starters minutes. To be honest, he'll probably play very similar minutes maybe Pierce a few less until the playoffs.

One of my biggest reasons is to help save Pierce for the playoffs. The dude is still 35
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: ScoobyDoo on January 21, 2013, 06:08:11 PM
yeah, who knows with Green but I also agree if nothing else it could save Pierce for the playoffs as BleedGreen said.

One questions I have about Green is "is it possible he might be more a more effective scorer playing off Rondo than he was playing off two ball dominant scorers in Durant and Westbrook in OKC?

That's a question I'd to see answered and probably the only way to find out is to load Green up on minutes and see what we "might have" as soon as possible.

Hell, start Green at off guard if you have to - Pierce at the three, bring Bradley early for Pierce if needed, move Pierce into the 3 spot slide Green to the four.

Just ****' mix it up a little.   
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: wiley on January 21, 2013, 06:13:32 PM
I'm a bit surprised by the "it may not work, but we need to do something" argument, with few suggesting *why* this move will improve the team.
It isn't like it's being suggested for no reason. Pierce is a better player than Green, but Green has advantages over Pierce that can be exploited in the first unit. How about those transition buckets? How about attacking the rim? How about a post game?

Quote
Pierce's shooting has been off his career norms this year, but he's having an excellent, all-star caliber season.  He hasn't been the problem, and he's not the one who needs to have his role screwed with.
He can have an all-star season off the bench, too. I don't know how this has an impact on his role, since in either case he's being asked to score. Nobody is asking him to sit in the corner and shoot threes or run around screens all day.

I don't understand the implicit holiness of a starting position. Why can't we put Pierce against bench scrubs for easy points, and have him fresh on the floor at the end of close games? Isn't that still a good use of his talent?

Agree with this.  Nothing wrong with getting maximized at 35. 
He'll still be the big stud in town.  This move wouldn't take that away....
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: blink on January 21, 2013, 06:25:43 PM
PP's last 4 games
21 for 59 from the field = 35%
3 for 19 from 3point = 16%

When PP and KG have horrible nights shooting the ball, and don't get to the line at all our team is going to be bad.  Plain and simple. I think everyone wants to blame the bench and the role players DA signed, but the real issue is that our main two guys are getting old.

I think the point of the original post is that PP's role might need to change a bit if we are going to go anywhere this year.  Unfortunately, we don't have an AB type spark player waiting to take his spot like we did with RA last year.

Now some have said that PP is having an all-star level year.  He has had a few spectacular games, but to me in my very general eye test (watching 90% of the games) he has slipped.  He can still have great nights, but they are very few and far between.

Unfortunately he is still our best go to scorer.  The real question is do you get more out of JG by starting him.  Maybe you get 90% of PP if he comes off the bench.  I don't know.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: wiley on January 21, 2013, 06:29:02 PM
If, as some feel, Jeff's not good enough to start the game, and Pierce keeps playing like he has been, then we need to trade both of them and get some SF's who can do what it takes to deal with Miami....

Kirilenko?  Ariza?  Matt Barnes? Corey Brewer?  Wilson Chandler?  Martell Webster?

Pierce has been fine.  He's been playing at an all-star level for a SF.

Green is a below average starter.

Seriously?  Barnes or Webster over Pierce?  Yeah...

Hear you on those two, though shocked at the year Barnes is having...giving much more than Butler in the stat department.

One issue I have with your approach in this argument is that it doesn't take a close enough look at things like energy level.  Following your logic, how is it humanly possible that we lost to New Orleans and Detroit, among others?  These are teams filled with players who are clearly, at this point, inferior to Pierce, and to KG and Rondo too.  But they beat us.  There's more to the equation than just lining up stats and career achievement.  Age matters and so does fit.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: 2short on January 21, 2013, 06:39:08 PM
forgive me for not reading through everything
i proposed this awhile ago and was attacked by many a person here

jeff green is not as good as paul pierce (at least normally, paul's been underperforming lately)

HOWEVER this is a move that to me makes the TEAM better.  Jeff Green is averaging 10 pts a game with no plays run for him and no real shots (compare shots per game).  Paul is going to get his points no matter how you look at it (he's that good a scorer).  With this move paul would get a rest on defense and still be in for end of games.  He (paul) has looked lackluster on rotations all season, green has been inconsistant yet his minutes and shots have as well.    His defense lately is BETTER than pp, he can fill the lanes better and we could run plays for him on the box.  The hate he gets is very odd as he has outplayed everyone off the bench except maybe sully.  This would bring more speed and athleticism to starters.  This could allow sully to start.  Starters:
rondo, bradley, green, sully, kg
subs:
terry, lee, pierce, bass, insert #2 center

2 main things i see with paul's game (hall of fame player, number retired) is not filling lanes on breaks and lacking on defensive rotations

if HONDO can come off bench to make team TEAM better why couldn't it work for pierce??

Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: badshar on January 21, 2013, 06:39:19 PM
I'm in. Why not? Worst that happens is we get our teeth kicked in by another crappy team. Let's also start Sullinger, and Bass is 13th man.

It would effectively keep Pierce's minutes down and we could finally see how Green performs as a starter. Bass can be waterboy

Bass being the waterboy.

That image...lol
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: clover on January 21, 2013, 06:40:05 PM
One mitigating factor on those "Green's the same player" claims could be that he most often played the 4 in OKC, but I believe did better at the 3 when slotted there.  So his fully recovered and acclimated ceiling in Boston could be higher than in OKC if he primarily plays the 3.

Still, the larger issue could be that there are only so many changes left for Doc to try.  He can insert Sully into the starting rotation ahead of Bass and/or he can swap Green in for Pierce.  I don't see how many more shakeups are really feasible.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: wiley on January 21, 2013, 06:42:15 PM
forgive me for not reading through everything
i proposed this awhile ago and was attacked by many a person here

jeff green is not as good as paul pierce (at least normally, paul's been underperforming lately)

HOWEVER this is a move that to me makes the TEAM better.  Jeff Green is averaging 10 pts a game with no plays run for him and no real shots (compare shots per game).  Paul is going to get his points no matter how you look at it (he's that good a scorer).  With this move paul would get a rest on defense and still be in for end of games.  He (paul) has looked lackluster on rotations all season, green has been inconsistant yet his minutes and shots have as well.    His defense lately is BETTER than pp, he can fill the lanes better and we could run plays for him on the box.  The hate he gets is very odd as he has outplayed everyone off the bench except maybe sully.  This would bring more speed and athleticism to starters.  This could allow sully to start.  Starters:
rondo, bradley, green, sully, kg
subs:
terry, lee, pierce, bass, insert #2 center

2 main things i see with paul's game (hall of fame player, number retired) is not filling lanes on breaks and lacking on defensive rotations

if HONDO can come off bench to make team TEAM better why couldn't it work for pierce??

The Celts have a nice 6th man tradition.  McHale was a 6th man.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: ben on January 21, 2013, 06:58:55 PM
Start green.  Maybe move pierce to the 2.  Maybe bring pierce off the bench.  But start green for at least one game!

How is it that Collins, Terry, Sullinger, Lee, and Bass have opportunities to start games and green has not?  Green is our 4th best scorer, might as well start him for at least one game, and explore better lineups for green.  Green and Pierce or Green and bradley at the guard sports is IDEAL.  this is not rocket science, can't believe green hasn't started yet on a struggling team with the amount of lineups we have tried so far ANYWAY!. 
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: dreamgreen on January 21, 2013, 07:02:14 PM
JG drives me crazy, some nights he is awesome, than other nights he is invisible. But I've had this thought for a while now, and IMO we have nothing to lose, Doc has to try something, hell if JG does better maybe some team will be dumb enough to trade for him lol.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: EJPLAYA on January 21, 2013, 07:03:12 PM
If, as some feel, Jeff's not good enough to start the game, and Pierce keeps playing like he has been, then we need to trade both of them and get some SF's who can do what it takes to deal with Miami....

Kirilenko?  Ariza?  Matt Barnes? Corey Brewer?  Wilson Chandler?  Martell Webster?

Pierce has been fine.  He's been playing at an all-star level for a SF.

Green is a below average starter.

Seriously?  Barnes or Webster over Pierce?  Yeah...

Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

That being said, I don't know that Green would play any better, but he really hasn't had the chance to see what we have so I'd at least like to see him with a stretch starting. Some players like Terry thrive off of coming in off the bench and can light it up immediately. Some players struggle. I believe that is what we are seeing in Green and that he will get quite a bit better with more steady PT. His numbers are barely off of Pierce's. I say look to the future since we aren't competitive and Paul is on the steady decline.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 21, 2013, 07:14:58 PM
The Captain isn't sitting, period, unless he is injured.   JG has not earned a starting nod and it would be an insult to Paul.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: CelticG1 on January 21, 2013, 07:17:34 PM
Why doesn't Lee start and rondo come off the bench?

We can put the ball in Pierce and KG's hands and Lee can take open shots when he gets them.

Rondo then comes in and helps the second unit by creating easier opportunities for them.

This type of thinking is what makes people shake their head when others want to start Green instead of Pierce.

In theory some of the things sound nice but doubtful that they play out how you'd like and basically just rolling the dice for the heck of it. Doc, Danny and every player isn't just going to roll the five out of no where. It takes deep thought and consideration before youbjust start shooting off fireworks
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 07:19:49 PM
If, as some feel, Jeff's not good enough to start the game, and Pierce keeps playing like he has been, then we need to trade both of them and get some SF's who can do what it takes to deal with Miami....

Kirilenko?  Ariza?  Matt Barnes? Corey Brewer?  Wilson Chandler?  Martell Webster?

Pierce has been fine.  He's been playing at an all-star level for a SF.

Green is a below average starter.

Seriously?  Barnes or Webster over Pierce?  Yeah...

Hear you on those two, though shocked at the year Barnes is having...giving much more than Butler in the stat department.

One issue I have with your approach in this argument is that it doesn't take a close enough look at things like energy level.  Following your logic, how is it humanly possible that we lost to New Orleans and Detroit, among others?  These are teams filled with players who are clearly, at this point, inferior to Pierce, and to KG and Rondo too.  But they beat us.  There's more to the equation than just lining up stats and career achievement.  Age matters and so does fit.

If the concern is energy level, how is replacing Paul Pierce -- who has carried this team numerous times, played through injuries, sparked huge comebacks -- with the passive Jeff Green going to do anything positive?

This isn't replacing Ray Allen with Avery Bradley, or Bass with Sully.  It's replacing a better and more energetic player with a lesser talent (in terms of scoring, passing, defense, and rebounding), and a guy who brings less energy.

Note that Doc didn't speak about making changes in the starting lineup.  Rather, he talked about shipping folks out of town.  Clearly, replacing the Captain isn't something Doc is thinking about.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 07:21:56 PM
Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star.

According to who?
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Evantime34 on January 21, 2013, 07:24:18 PM
Here are the Reasons it could be a good idea:
1. Green would benefit from playing with the starters
2. It could save Pierce's legs
Why it is a bad idea:
1. Pierce is our best scorer on a team that sometimes has trouble scoring.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: CelticsFan9 on January 21, 2013, 07:24:41 PM
Our starting lineup struggles to score.  Why take out our best scorer and put in a guy who the coach runs no plays for, and is ineffective if the ball isn't in his hands?  That makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: wiley on January 21, 2013, 08:12:13 PM
If, as some feel, Jeff's not good enough to start the game, and Pierce keeps playing like he has been, then we need to trade both of them and get some SF's who can do what it takes to deal with Miami....

Kirilenko?  Ariza?  Matt Barnes? Corey Brewer?  Wilson Chandler?  Martell Webster?

Pierce has been fine.  He's been playing at an all-star level for a SF.

Green is a below average starter.

Seriously?  Barnes or Webster over Pierce?  Yeah...

Hear you on those two, though shocked at the year Barnes is having...giving much more than Butler in the stat department.

One issue I have with your approach in this argument is that it doesn't take a close enough look at things like energy level.  Following your logic, how is it humanly possible that we lost to New Orleans and Detroit, among others?  These are teams filled with players who are clearly, at this point, inferior to Pierce, and to KG and Rondo too.  But they beat us.  There's more to the equation than just lining up stats and career achievement.  Age matters and so does fit.

If the concern is energy level, how is replacing Paul Pierce -- who has carried this team numerous times, played through injuries, sparked huge comebacks -- with the passive Jeff Green going to do anything positive?

This isn't replacing Ray Allen with Avery Bradley, or Bass with Sully.  It's replacing a better and more energetic player with a lesser talent (in terms of scoring, passing, defense, and rebounding), and a guy who brings less energy.

Note that Doc didn't speak about making changes in the starting lineup.  Rather, he talked about shipping folks out of town.  Clearly, replacing the Captain isn't something Doc is thinking about.

More athletic due to being younger might be a better way of putting it than energy level.

I guess you're saying you don't want Pierce to switch to the bench until his backup shows clearly that he's a better player.  I can live with that I guess, though when a player's age is in question I think teams and players should be flexible.  I also think we should start games against Miami with our best defensive unit (so let's see how Jeff and Paul move forward on that end as the season progresses).

I actually think the Celts would have a better shot against Miami with Rondo and Jeff Green (or a Jeff Green replacement who is a good defender who can finish) developing chemistry for some months before that series comes to pass, and Pierce doing all kinds of damage off the bench while still closing games.

I don't think we can start a 35 and 36 year old against Wade and Lebron.  But we might be able to finish games like that if we manage their minutes wisely, as is already happening with Garnett.
 
I guess I hold the opinion I do because a pet peeve of mine is watching gassed players heroically try to keep their level of play up when it's clear they're cooked.  This has happened to us in some of our playoffs with Paul and Ray.  A gassed player with no legs left is not much better than a D-Leaguer and at times worse.  But that's more of a coaching issue than a who's the better player issue.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Who on January 21, 2013, 08:15:24 PM


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 08:25:37 PM


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Who on January 21, 2013, 08:34:12 PM


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

Not the same thing when one guy is your leading scorer and your sole 20ppg threat and the other is a bench player playing 22 minutes a night or whatever it is that is being asked to get 8-10ppg.

But yeah, Jeff Green has been woefully inconsistent this season too. Even less reliable than Pierce. I just care less about that because his role and importance to the team is a lot smaller than Pierce's is.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 08:37:34 PM


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

Not the same thing when one guy is your leading scorer and your sole 20ppg threat and the other is a bench player playing 22 minutes a night or whatever it is that is being asked to get 8-10ppg.

But yeah, Jeff Green has been woefully inconsistent this season too. Even less reliable than Pierce. I just care less about that because his role and importance to the team is a lot smaller than Pierce's is.

I agree in general.  Pierce's lessening consistency is a large part of the reason we're not top-tier contenders anymore.

However, when people talk about replacing Pierce with Green, they need to realize that all the problems they have with Pierce's game are amplified when talking about Green.  Green is a less consistent scorer, a worse shooter, a much worse passer, and inferior rebounder, etc.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: clover on January 21, 2013, 08:47:37 PM


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

Not the same thing when one guy is your leading scorer and your sole 20ppg threat and the other is a bench player playing 22 minutes a night or whatever it is that is being asked to get 8-10ppg.

But yeah, Jeff Green has been woefully inconsistent this season too. Even less reliable than Pierce. I just care less about that because his role and importance to the team is a lot smaller than Pierce's is.

A fair point: the guy playing fewer minutes is expected to be less consistent, because each game comprises a smaller sample of his shooting.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: EJPLAYA on January 21, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star.

According to who?

The fans number 1. He's 6th in all star voting behind Tyson Chandler. at only 200k votes he is 1/6th of Lebron James votes. Interestingly, Jeff Green has 62k votes, so at least in the fans eyes he isn't having that great a year. Yes I realize the fans are many times a popularity contest, however stats are stats.

How can you play poor defense, be known as a scorer, but having one of your worst shooting years in your career but considered to be at an all star level?!
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: EJPLAYA on January 21, 2013, 08:56:55 PM


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

Not the same thing when one guy is your leading scorer and your sole 20ppg threat and the other is a bench player playing 22 minutes a night or whatever it is that is being asked to get 8-10ppg.

But yeah, Jeff Green has been woefully inconsistent this season too. Even less reliable than Pierce. I just care less about that because his role and importance to the team is a lot smaller than Pierce's is.

I agree in general.  Pierce's lessening consistency is a large part of the reason we're not top-tier contenders anymore.

However, when people talk about replacing Pierce with Green, they need to realize that all the problems they have with Pierce's game are amplified when talking about Green.  Green is a less consistent scorer, a worse shooter, a much worse passer, and inferior rebounder, etc.
All true, and I definitely am not trying to insinuate that Green has been having a great year. I think the difference though is the objective. I feel pretty strongly that without a major shakeup we are a first round exit from the playoffs if we even get into them. I think it is time to stop pretending that Pierce can lead us to the finals and start evaluating what we have for the future. I think Green would play better in the starting lineup than coming off the bench, and we need to see if this is as good as he gets, or if he can be Pierce's replacement. I don't think there is a trade that someone would be willing to make that wouldn't give away our core completely that would make us contenders, so I'm thinking look to the future.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 08:57:42 PM
Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star.

According to who?

The fans number 1. He's 6th in all star voting behind Tyson Chandler. at only 200k votes he is 1/6th of Lebron James votes. Interestingly, Jeff Green has 62k votes, so at least in the fans eyes he isn't having that great a year. Yes I realize the fans are many times a popularity contest, however stats are stats.

How can you play poor defense, be known as a scorer, but having one of your worst shooting years in your career but considered to be at an all star level?!

So since the fans aren't voting Pierce ahead of Lebron, they don't see him as an all-star?  I mean, by your own logic, he should be an all-star, if he's the 6th front court player in the East.

Second, Pierce isn't playing poor defense.

Last, Pierce is, in fact, being talked about for the All-Star team:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701447/is-pierce-an-all-star
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: blink on January 21, 2013, 09:03:02 PM
Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star.

According to who?

The fans number 1. He's 6th in all star voting behind Tyson Chandler. at only 200k votes he is 1/6th of Lebron James votes. Interestingly, Jeff Green has 62k votes, so at least in the fans eyes he isn't having that great a year. Yes I realize the fans are many times a popularity contest, however stats are stats.

How can you play poor defense, be known as a scorer, but having one of your worst shooting years in your career but considered to be at an all star level?!

I am pretty sure using ANY all-star balloting to justify all-star level 'play' is pretty silly.  I am a huge KG fan and I accept that he really doesn't deserve to be starting in the all-star game based on his play in the 1st 1/2 of the year.

Honestly being 6th in the all-star voting doesn't mean he is good or bad.  It is just irrelevant to our discussion of whether or not it is time to consider PP coming off the bench.

I am all for giving PP a day or two off to see if getting his legs a bit of rest can improve his horrible shooting %.  His legs seem pretty shot.  Give him a couple DNP's and let him rest and see if JG can help.  If Green can't at least fill in well for PP in that scenario, then he needs to go into the 'very much willing to be traded' catagory.  JG has been hugely inconsistent, but then so has PP.  Give JG a shot at least before you throw him off the bus.

Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: EJPLAYA on January 21, 2013, 09:04:38 PM
Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star.

According to who?

The fans number 1. He's 6th in all star voting behind Tyson Chandler. at only 200k votes he is 1/6th of Lebron James votes. Interestingly, Jeff Green has 62k votes, so at least in the fans eyes he isn't having that great a year. Yes I realize the fans are many times a popularity contest, however stats are stats.

How can you play poor defense, be known as a scorer, but having one of your worst shooting years in your career but considered to be at an all star level?!

So since the fans aren't voting Pierce ahead of Lebron, they don't see him as an all-star?  I mean, by your own logic, he should be an all-star, if he's the 6th front court player in the East.

Second, Pierce isn't playing poor defense.

Last, Pierce is, in fact, being talked about for the All-Star team:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701447/is-pierce-an-all-star
He's 6th in the voting, however I don't think he is playing better than all but 5 frontcourt players in the East. He's going to be in the discussion no matter how he's playing because he is Paul Pierce. Just like Andrew Bynum has 96k votes even though he hasn't played one minute this season. Doesn't mean he is playing at an all star level.

I disagree with the defensive comment. I think he is playing poor defense and has slipped dramatically as he has gotten older. Not saying he doesn't give effort there. Just not very effective due to his age.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: blink on January 21, 2013, 09:05:13 PM


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

I am not convinced that comparing starters minutes / stats with a reserve is a good way to determine if they could be a good fit in the starting lineup or not.  Last year AB had pretty poor stats before he was inserted into the starting lineup.  Not saying that Green will provide that spark, just that it isn't apples to apples comparing PP and JG's stats.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 09:07:07 PM


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

I am not convinced that comparing starters minutes / stats with a reserve is a good way to determine if they could be a good fit in the starting lineup or not.  Last year AB had pretty poor stats before he was inserted into the starting lineup.  Not saying that Green will provide that spark, just that it isn't apples to apples comparing PP and JG's stats.

I don't think there's any real reason to suspect he'd play better.  Again, his production has been exactly consistent with his production in 2010 and 2011, across both starting and reserve roles.

It's not like Green never plays alongside starters.  If there's some spark that he's capable of providing, I'm not sure why there's been so little evidence of it over the first half of the season.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: wdleehi on January 21, 2013, 09:09:21 PM


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

I am not convinced that comparing starters minutes / stats with a reserve is a good way to determine if they could be a good fit in the starting lineup or not.  Last year AB had pretty poor stats before he was inserted into the starting lineup.  Not saying that Green will provide that spark, just that it isn't apples to apples comparing PP and JG's stats.


But those stats for Green fall right in line with his stats from when he was a start for those multiple seasons with the Thunder.



Green has proven what he is in the NBA.  I don't understand why he is suddenly going to become a different player starting for the Celtics then the one he has been off the bench for the Celtics and as a starting F with the Thunder. 
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: blink on January 21, 2013, 09:12:03 PM


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

I am not convinced that comparing starters minutes / stats with a reserve is a good way to determine if they could be a good fit in the starting lineup or not.  Last year AB had pretty poor stats before he was inserted into the starting lineup.  Not saying that Green will provide that spark, just that it isn't apples to apples comparing PP and JG's stats.

I don't think there's any real reason to suspect he'd play better.  Again, his production has been exactly consistent with his production in 2010 and 2011, across both starting and reserve roles.

As far as I know JG hasn't started 1 game for the celtics since he was traded here correct?  I don't think his stats in 2010 when he was playing for OKC has a lot of impact on whether or not he should get a chance to prove himself here.  Some players play better starting. 

I don't know what it would hurt to give him a chance for a few games to further evaluate the fit.  It's not like it is going to upset our dream season we are having right now.  It doesn't mean you bench PP for the rest of the year or trade him.  Sometimes it is good for the player who is playing poorly to break away and get a different perspective.  It might help PP come back and play better?
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 09:12:26 PM

I disagree with the defensive comment. I think he is playing poor defense and has slipped dramatically as he has gotten older. Not saying he doesn't give effort there. Just not very effective due to his age.

Statistically, Pierce still ranks in the top 15% or so of all NBA defenders.  He may have lost a step, but he's not bad on that end.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 09:14:57 PM
Sometimes it is good for the player who is playing poorly to break away and get a different perspective.

Do you have a few recent examples of this?  Having a career-long starter sent to the bench for a few games even though he's healthy, and coming back energized and refreshed, with a totally positive perspective?

Call me cynical, but in today's NBA, I don't think that's how it works.

Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: blink on January 21, 2013, 09:16:29 PM


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

I am not convinced that comparing starters minutes / stats with a reserve is a good way to determine if they could be a good fit in the starting lineup or not.  Last year AB had pretty poor stats before he was inserted into the starting lineup.  Not saying that Green will provide that spark, just that it isn't apples to apples comparing PP and JG's stats.

I don't think there's any real reason to suspect he'd play better.  Again, his production has been exactly consistent with his production in 2010 and 2011, across both starting and reserve roles.

It's not like Green never plays alongside starters.  If there's some spark that he's capable of providing, I'm not sure why there's been so little evidence of it over the first half of the season.

But the whole issue isn't about if PP is playing better than JG then is it?  It is really about what is better for the team?  Does PP help the team more by becoming our stud 6th man?  Maybe with Green starting and PP off the bench you get more out of the 3 position than you do right now?  I dunno.  It probably isn't our biggest issue.  But I just wonder why everyone is so against Green starting a game or two.  Sheesh everyone else on the whole roster has almost started at least one or two games.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 09:18:34 PM


Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

Yeesh ... that is an ugly stat.

Even uglier, Jeff Green has been below 35% in 15 of 40 games (and below 30% in 11 of them), and he doesn't shoot the lower percentage (but higher efficiency) 3PT as well as Pierce does.

EDIT:  Pierce had a TS% below .350 in three of 40 games.  Green was below that anemic mark in 11 of 40 games.

I am not convinced that comparing starters minutes / stats with a reserve is a good way to determine if they could be a good fit in the starting lineup or not.  Last year AB had pretty poor stats before he was inserted into the starting lineup.  Not saying that Green will provide that spark, just that it isn't apples to apples comparing PP and JG's stats.

I don't think there's any real reason to suspect he'd play better.  Again, his production has been exactly consistent with his production in 2010 and 2011, across both starting and reserve roles.

It's not like Green never plays alongside starters.  If there's some spark that he's capable of providing, I'm not sure why there's been so little evidence of it over the first half of the season.

But the whole issue isn't about if PP is playing better than JG then is it?  It is really about what is better for the team?  Does PP help the team more by becoming our stud 6th man?  Maybe with Green starting and PP off the bench you get more out of the 3 position than you do right now?  I dunno.  It probably isn't our biggest issue.  But I just wonder why everyone is so against Green starting a game or two.  Sheesh everyone else on the whole roster has almost started at least one or two games.

Our starting lineup is underperforming right now.  Our SG and PF position are near the bottom of the league in terms of point differential.  I just don't believe that weakening the SF position, and the starting lineup in general, benefits the team.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: blink on January 21, 2013, 09:23:25 PM
Sometimes it is good for the player who is playing poorly to break away and get a different perspective.

Do you have a few recent examples of this?  Having a career-long starter sent to the bench for a few games even though he's healthy, and coming back energized and refreshed, with a totally positive perspective?

Call me cynical, but in today's NBA, I don't think that's how it works.

Roy I am not an encyclopedia, and I don't claim to have all the answers.  I just see PP as having a really bad few games, and his legs look gone, his shot is really flat.  Swapping roles with JG for a game or two to give him some rest isn't going to kill our strangle-hold on the #1 seed and I doubt PP's ego is so fragile that it will kill our chemistry.



 
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 21, 2013, 09:25:05 PM
Sometimes it is good for the player who is playing poorly to break away and get a different perspective.

Do you have a few recent examples of this?  Having a career-long starter sent to the bench for a few games even though he's healthy, and coming back energized and refreshed, with a totally positive perspective?

Call me cynical, but in today's NBA, I don't think that's how it works.

Roy I am not an encyclopedia, and I don't claim to have all the answers.  I just see PP as having a really bad few games, and his legs look gone, his shot is really flat.  Swapping roles with JG for a game or two to give him some rest isn't going to kill our strangle-hold on the #1 seed and I doubt PP's ego is so fragile that it will kill our chemistry.

I'd rather see Doc do what Pops does, and rest Pierce for a game or two.  I think being demoted in favor of a lesser player is counter-productive.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: blink on January 21, 2013, 09:29:47 PM
Sometimes it is good for the player who is playing poorly to break away and get a different perspective.

Do you have a few recent examples of this?  Having a career-long starter sent to the bench for a few games even though he's healthy, and coming back energized and refreshed, with a totally positive perspective?

Call me cynical, but in today's NBA, I don't think that's how it works.

Roy I am not an encyclopedia, and I don't claim to have all the answers.  I just see PP as having a really bad few games, and his legs look gone, his shot is really flat.  Swapping roles with JG for a game or two to give him some rest isn't going to kill our strangle-hold on the #1 seed and I doubt PP's ego is so fragile that it will kill our chemistry.

I'd rather see Doc do what Pops does, and rest Pierce for a game or two.  I think being demoted in favor of a lesser player is counter-productive.

Roy, I said exactly the same thing.  See the last comment on P5 of this tread.  I never said we have to bench PP to try out JG as a starter.  I also never said we should permanently bench PP.  I think his legs look shot.  He needs a couple of DNPs.  Just like I said earlier.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: cltc5 on January 21, 2013, 09:53:50 PM
This team would be 10 games over .500 with Pop as coach.  Which tells you where the problem lies
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: BballTim on January 21, 2013, 10:40:14 PM
This team would be 10 games over .500 with Pop as coach.  Which tells you where the problem lies

  If the Spurs had a coach as good as Pop they'd have won a title or two in the last 5 years.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: j804 on January 21, 2013, 11:45:56 PM
Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star.

According to who?

The fans number 1. He's 6th in all star voting behind Tyson Chandler. at only 200k votes he is 1/6th of Lebron James votes. Interestingly, Jeff Green has 62k votes, so at least in the fans eyes he isn't having that great a year. Yes I realize the fans are many times a popularity contest, however stats are stats.

How can you play poor defense, be known as a scorer, but having one of your worst shooting years in your career but considered to be at an all star level?!

So since the fans aren't voting Pierce ahead of Lebron, they don't see him as an all-star?  I mean, by your own logic, he should be an all-star, if he's the 6th front court player in the East.

Second, Pierce isn't playing poor defense.

Last, Pierce is, in fact, being talked about for the All-Star team:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4701447/is-pierce-an-all-star
He's 6th in the voting, however I don't think he is playing better than all but 5 frontcourt players in the East. He's going to be in the discussion no matter how he's playing because he is Paul Pierce. Just like Andrew Bynum has 96k votes even though he hasn't played one minute this season. Doesn't mean he is playing at an all star level.

I disagree with the defensive comment. I think he is playing poor defense and has slipped dramatically as he has gotten older. Not saying he doesn't give effort there. Just not very effective due to his age.
I love Pierce but rather someone more deserving takes it, he shouldn't be there.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Change on January 21, 2013, 11:51:34 PM
This team would be 10 games over .500 with Pop as coach.  Which tells you where the problem lies

Sadly, I believe it.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: apc on January 22, 2013, 12:00:35 AM
I wouldn't mind trying starting Green, our team is going nowhere this year, we should start thinking of next season now.
The Celtics decided to invest in green, like it or not.
that being said, i don't think Doc has it to move PP to the bench.
I also would like to see Melo getting some minutes with the Celtics.(not saying he is ready)
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: celts10 on January 22, 2013, 12:03:46 AM
Thoughts?

Danny said the following in May 2011,

"Maybe there’s a change of roles. Maybe Paul comes off the bench, cuts down on his minutes. Maybe we find a way to get Jeff more minutes. His role will expand if he’s back here next year. There’s no question about that …"

It's unfortunate that Green missed the entire season last year. Otherwise, it would have been interesting to see how that would have turned out.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Mazingerz on January 22, 2013, 01:24:10 AM
This team would be 10 games over .500 with Pop as coach.  Which tells you where the problem lies

Sadly, I believe it.

Yup. Doc's schemes seems stale and i get the feeling that some of his players are tuning him out already.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Kane3387 on January 22, 2013, 01:33:11 AM
This team would be 10 games over .500 with Pop as coach.  Which tells you where the problem lies

  If the Spurs had a coach as good as Pop they'd have won a title or two in the last 5 years.

Lol tp
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Celtics18 on January 22, 2013, 01:51:25 AM
This team would be 10 games over .500 with Pop as coach.  Which tells you where the problem lies

Sadly, I believe it.

Maybe, but they'd most likely lose in the first or second round of the playoffs.  Whereas Doc's team will most likely at least reach the conference finals. 
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Who on January 22, 2013, 03:21:52 AM
I'd rather see Doc do what Pops does, and rest Pierce for a game or two.  I think being demoted in favor of a lesser player is counter-productive.
Yeah, I'd like to see this happen too. It has become necessary.

Pierce is just shooting the C's out of games on nights where he doesn't have his legs and his defense has been deplorable on those nights. Much better gluing his butt to the bench and playing a much lesser player if that is all he can contribute. Especially if it helps him recover quicker and makes this bad spells shorter. Because right now these multi-game stretches of horrid basketball is killing the team whenever they happen.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: bopna on January 22, 2013, 06:04:32 AM
The Captain isn't sitting, period, unless he is injured.   JG has not earned a starting nod and it would be an insult to Paul.

This is exactly the very reason why this team is going down the dandrums...why oh why are we so attached to Paul, he is freaking 35 yrs old and still some people on this board still thinks PP is 28, lets all pause for a minute and breath..I am not advocating PP sit but heck the guy needs help, he is struggling and is in a shooting funk.

The same was said of Ray Allen last year, he ain't effective starting anymre and it took an Allen injury before doc realized he had to make the adjustment.

Are we really waiting for a PP injury before we should see what Jeff can really affer as a starter.

This team needs a shot in the arm and people see PP, Rondo, Terry and Bass as the main culprits for this freefall, of those players Terry remains n the bench and Rondo should continue to start therefore PP with all his medals and accolades in the past seems to be the right guy that should adjust his game, for all we know PP might even have a better and improved shooting if he comes off the bench...we can never really know until we try.

Me also thinks the dynamics of Rondo would change once he is forced not to defer to Pierce in the starting line up, it forces Rondo to be more shoot first knowing he won't have to defer to Pierce which he always does...I love Pierce but he is 35 and its evident that his game is sliding off the cliff faster than he could realize it himself, lets admit it, he ain't young anymore, Heck even KG needs to sit but we just don't have someone to replace him so he still plays heavy minutes and still needs to start.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: clover on January 22, 2013, 08:06:16 AM
The Captain isn't sitting, period, unless he is injured.   JG has not earned a starting nod and it would be an insult to Paul.

This is exactly the very reason why this team is going down the dandrums...why oh why are we so attached to Paul, he is freaking 35 yrs old and still some people on this board still thinks PP is 28, lets all pause for a minute and breath..I am not advocating PP sit but heck the guy needs help, he is struggling and is in a shooting funk.

The same was said of Ray Allen last year, he ain't effective starting anymre and it took an Allen injury before doc realized he had to make the adjustment.

Are we really waiting for a PP injury before we should see what Jeff can really affer as a starter.

This team needs a shot in the arm and people see PP, Rondo, Terry and Bass as the main culprits for this freefall, of those players Terry remains n the bench and Rondo should continue to start therefore PP with all his medals and accolades in the past seems to be the right guy that should adjust his game, for all we know PP might even have a better and improved shooting if he comes off the bench...we can never really know until we try.

Me also thinks the dynamics of Rondo would change once he is forced not to defer to Pierce in the starting line up, it forces Rondo to be more shoot first knowing he won't have to defer to Pierce which he always does...I love Pierce but he is 35 and its evident that his game is sliding off the cliff faster than he could realize it himself, lets admit it, he ain't young anymore, Heck even KG needs to sit but we just don't have someone to replace him so he still plays heavy minutes and still needs to start.

Agreed all around.  Cleveland would be a good game for Doc to try Sully and Green in the starting lineup.

Oh, and there was a time when Rondo was grievously upset with Doc giving the Big Three star treatment over the rest of the team.  If Rondo can't play more consistently, including better defense, when given that younger team to start with, Doc should try starting Lee and Bradley together as well.  Even though Rondo would still get big minutes, it would send a message to the entire team that the entire team has to play consistently hard, smart, and unselfishly.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: wdleehi on January 22, 2013, 08:21:52 AM
The Captain isn't sitting, period, unless he is injured.   JG has not earned a starting nod and it would be an insult to Paul.

This is exactly the very reason why this team is going down the dandrums...why oh why are we so attached to Paul, he is freaking 35 yrs old and still some people on this board still thinks PP is 28, lets all pause for a minute and breath..I am not advocating PP sit but heck the guy needs help, he is struggling and is in a shooting funk.

The same was said of Ray Allen last year, he ain't effective starting anymre and it took an Allen injury before doc realized he had to make the adjustment.

Are we really waiting for a PP injury before we should see what Jeff can really affer as a starter.

This team needs a shot in the arm and people see PP, Rondo, Terry and Bass as the main culprits for this freefall, of those players Terry remains n the bench and Rondo should continue to start therefore PP with all his medals and accolades in the past seems to be the right guy that should adjust his game, for all we know PP might even have a better and improved shooting if he comes off the bench...we can never really know until we try.

Me also thinks the dynamics of Rondo would change once he is forced not to defer to Pierce in the starting line up, it forces Rondo to be more shoot first knowing he won't have to defer to Pierce which he always does...I love Pierce but he is 35 and its evident that his game is sliding off the cliff faster than he could realize it himself, lets admit it, he ain't young anymore, Heck even KG needs to sit but we just don't have someone to replace him so he still plays heavy minutes and still needs to start.


Pierce isn't the problem. 


Replacing him in the lineup with a player that is weaker offensively, defensively, rebounding and a big step back in leadership doesn't make any sense unless the Celtics are desperate to prove they made the right trade and they didn't over pay him on the contract.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: gpap on January 22, 2013, 08:25:40 AM
It's not really an ideal decision considering Pierce isn't playing well and Jeff Green just isn't that good.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 22, 2013, 08:30:46 AM
I'd rather see Doc do what Pops does, and rest Pierce for a game or two.  I think being demoted in favor of a lesser player is counter-productive.
Yeah, I'd like to see this happen too. It has become necessary.

Pierce is just shooting the C's out of games on nights where he doesn't have his legs and his defense has been deplorable on those nights. Much better gluing his butt to the bench and playing a much lesser player if that is all he can contribute. Especially if it helps him recover quicker and makes this bad spells shorter. Because right now these multi-game stretches of horrid basketball is killing the team whenever they happen.

This .^
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: MBunge on January 22, 2013, 10:32:17 AM
Pierce isn't the problem. 

Pierce isn't THE problem, but neither is Green or Lee or even Bass or Terry.  The team as a whole is a problem, which is why thinking about something to change the nature of the team makes sense.

Everybody seems to agree that D'Antoni needs to adjust his system to fit the Lakers' roster.  Well, why doesn't Doc have to adjust to his roster?

Mike
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: BballTim on January 22, 2013, 10:55:27 AM
Not sure how Pierce is having an all star level season since he isn't really even in the running for being named an all star. He is shooting atrociously for his standards and instead of working for better shots, he keeps firing up garbage. He is very hit and miss this season with 10 of his 40 games under 35% shooting and half of those under 30%. I think his "low" stats are misleading because he is so hot and cold now that he is costing us games when he isn't on. Bad shots and poor defense don't put him at an all star level.

  How far from normal (for Pierce) would you imagine that 1/4 of his games shooting under 35% and about 1/8 of his games under 30% is? It's not as atypical as you think it is.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Kane3387 on January 22, 2013, 11:02:19 AM
Pierce isn't the problem. 

Pierce isn't THE problem, but neither is Green or Lee or even Bass or Terry.  The team as a whole is a problem, which is why thinking about something to change the nature of the team makes sense.

Everybody seems to agree that D'Antoni needs to adjust his system to fit the Lakers' roster.  Well, why doesn't Doc have to adjust to his roster?

Mike

How do you propose he does? Make Rondo play off ball a lot more? I don't think that helps us.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on January 22, 2013, 11:09:30 AM
I'd start by giving Jeff some plays for himself first if he's in the second unit before starting him over Paul.

We have a solid bench mob with Green, Lee and if they play like they used to, Bass and Jet. Jeff is athletic enough that he can go up against any SF in the NBA not named LeBron. How about giving him an ISO play once in a while.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Celtics18 on January 22, 2013, 11:33:47 AM
I appreciate this thread.  It seems that every time there's a call to bench Paul Pierce, he starts playing like an All-Star again.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: MBunge on January 22, 2013, 11:35:22 AM
Pierce isn't the problem. 

Pierce isn't THE problem, but neither is Green or Lee or even Bass or Terry.  The team as a whole is a problem, which is why thinking about something to change the nature of the team makes sense.

Everybody seems to agree that D'Antoni needs to adjust his system to fit the Lakers' roster.  Well, why doesn't Doc have to adjust to his roster?

Mike

How do you propose he does? Make Rondo play off ball a lot more? I don't think that helps us.

How about running plays designed to get Green and Terry good looks, instead of just expecting them to live off whatever's available when the play for KG or Pierce breaks down?  How about playing more up tempo?  How about more post-ups for Sully?  How about trying to play big for once, shifting Pierce to the 2 guard and putting Green at the 3?  How about simplifying the whole offense?  Whenever I watch a game not involving Boston, I'm frequently amazed at how much more fluidity and ease there is with those team's offenses.  Nate Robinson is SOOOOOO much more effective with Thibs in Chicago than he ever was with Doc in Boston, because Thibs is willing to just let him frickin' play instead of trying to trap Nate in some very limited role where he's only supposed to do certain things.

Mike
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 22, 2013, 11:42:43 AM
Pierce isn't the problem. 

Pierce isn't THE problem, but neither is Green or Lee or even Bass or Terry.  The team as a whole is a problem, which is why thinking about something to change the nature of the team makes sense.

Everybody seems to agree that D'Antoni needs to adjust his system to fit the Lakers' roster.  Well, why doesn't Doc have to adjust to his roster?

Mike

How do you propose he does? Make Rondo play off ball a lot more? I don't think that helps us.

How about running plays designed to get Green and Terry good looks, instead of just expecting them to live off whatever's available when the play for KG or Pierce breaks down?  How about playing more up tempo?  How about more post-ups for Sully?  How about trying to play big for once, shifting Pierce to the 2 guard and putting Green at the 3?  How about simplifying the whole offense?  Whenever I watch a game not involving Boston, I'm frequently amazed at how much more fluidity and ease there is with those team's offenses.  Nate Robinson is SOOOOOO much more effective with Thibs in Chicago than he ever was with Doc in Boston, because Thibs is willing to just let him frickin' play instead of trying to trap Nate in some very limited role where he's only supposed to do certain things.

Mike

I agree with a lot of that.  Rather than doing something gimmicky like demoting Pierce, try some of that.  I think the two biggies are giving Terry more of a role (rather than perpetually running him off screens, allow him to create his own offense), and giving Sully more post attempts.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: djbilly33 on January 22, 2013, 12:04:35 PM
Easiest thing to do is pull a Pop and sit Paul/KG for a game and see what you get when you start say a lineup of rondo barbosa/lee green sullinger and Wilcox or melo.  Then assess the results after the game or games.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: scaryjerry on January 22, 2013, 12:06:02 PM
yeah....because Jeff green has earned that.  ::)
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Shad0wman on January 22, 2013, 05:26:30 PM
I can say with all certainty that people who think Jeff Green should start and still think hes going to be an All-Star or even a more productive player, really don't understand the game of Basketball at all, and have maybe held a basketball in their hands for an hour in their entire lifetime. If you can't see that Jeff Green is a horrible basketball player, then you're either in denial, delusional or don't have a clue what you're talking about. Keep posting on CB how great you think Jeff Green is or will become, I will keep coming here telling you you're wrong? How can I make such a bold statement? Jeff Green.



Jeff Green has single-handedly ruined this Celtics team.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Jon Niednagel on January 22, 2013, 06:13:59 PM
I can say with all certainty that people who think Jeff Green should start and still think hes going to be an All-Star or even a more productive player, really don't understand the game of Basketball at all, and have maybe held a basketball in their hands for an hour in their entire lifetime. If you can't see that Jeff Green is a horrible basketball player, then you're either in denial, delusional or don't have a clue what you're talking about. Keep posting on CB how great you think Jeff Green is or will become, I will keep coming here telling you you're wrong? How can I make such a bold statement? Jeff Green.



Jeff Green has single-handedly ruined this Celtics team.

You clearly have an objective and informed opinion on this matter. Thanks for enlightening everyone with your well proven basketball knowledge in such a humble and gracious manner.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: ScoobyDoo on January 22, 2013, 07:28:09 PM
I think Jeff Green is fully capable of being a 15 point, 6 rebound a game starter on a championship team - especially if he continues to improve defensively at the SF spot.

He isn't a 1st or 2nd option, more like a 3rd or 4th option on said hypothetical team. And that's fine, you need 3rd and 4th options on all teams.

Also, as our team is currently constructed he will continue to struggle. The more open ended, fast break environment he is in the better.

I'd lie to see a lot more of:

KG
Sully
Green
Bradley and Rondo

Isn't that one of our top 2-3 lineups? I thought I read that somewhere.

I'm giving Green a full year coming off major surgery before I place too much judgement on him.

He's averaging almost 10 points a game in only 23 minutes. I don't 15 a game is a stretch with another 10-12 minutes a night.

Lastly, guys make leaps at different stages in their careers and in different areas of their game. With his athleticism he could very well become an outstanding defender at the three spot - combine that with 12-15 a night and 6 boards that would be very valuable, especially if you have a couple of young big guns putting up big numbers beside that contribution from Green.

It all depends what expectations you place on Green.
 
 
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: ScoobyDoo on January 22, 2013, 07:32:28 PM
Gerald Wallace
Paid more than Green
A Starter
9.5 points, 5.2 rebounds in 32 minutes a game

Jeff Green
paid less than Wallace
9.5 points, 3.1 rebounds in 23 minutes per game

Still angry at Jeff Green?

A little more time before final judgement maybe?
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: greenhead85 on January 22, 2013, 07:37:09 PM
Starting Green over PP means that we are opting for a run-and-gun and/or a quick start approach which PP will surely wont be able to do consistently game after game. It is simply a case of pacing. A lot of running and rebounding is needed with this approach so, easily, Green is the logical choice to start at SF.

I would agree with this move if we get the job done in the next 5 games. Otherwise, we really need a big-time scorer in the starting lineup to plug the holes that a slow-paced game under PP gives which is by the way pathetically coupled with a tentative shooter in Rondo.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 22, 2013, 07:39:40 PM
Gerald Wallace
Paid more than Green
A Starter
9.5 points, 5.2 rebounds in 32 minutes a game

Jeff Green
paid less than Wallace
9.5 points, 3.1 rebounds in 23 minutes per game

Still angry at Jeff Green?

A little more time before final judgement maybe?

Wallace is having a down year.  I don't think any of us would want him on his contract.

The fact that the Nets overpaid for Wallace doesn't make me feel any better about overpaying for Jeff Green.  At least Wallace had a proven track record before being given his big deal.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: 2short on January 22, 2013, 07:52:47 PM
Gerald Wallace
Paid more than Green
A Starter
9.5 points, 5.2 rebounds in 32 minutes a game

Jeff Green
paid less than Wallace
9.5 points, 3.1 rebounds in 23 minutes per game

Still angry at Jeff Green?

A little more time before final judgement maybe?

Wallace is having a down year.  I don't think any of us would want him on his contract.

The fact that the Nets overpaid for Wallace doesn't make me feel any better about overpaying for Jeff Green.  At least Wallace had a proven track record before being given his big deal.
Roy you can't have it both ways.  Wallace's minutes and shot attempts are down from previous years.  Same argument you have used on green. 
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 22, 2013, 08:08:43 PM
Gerald Wallace
Paid more than Green
A Starter
9.5 points, 5.2 rebounds in 32 minutes a game

Jeff Green
paid less than Wallace
9.5 points, 3.1 rebounds in 23 minutes per game

Still angry at Jeff Green?

A little more time before final judgement maybe?

Wallace is having a down year.  I don't think any of us would want him on his contract.

The fact that the Nets overpaid for Wallace doesn't make me feel any better about overpaying for Jeff Green.  At least Wallace had a proven track record before being given his big deal.
Roy you can't have it both ways.  Wallace's minutes and shot attempts are down from previous years.  Same argument you have used on green.

I'm not following.

Wallace is having a bad year.  He's looked very poor for Brooklyn.  His defense has been spotty, and his efficiency is way down.

Like I said, what does the fact that the Nets overpaid for Wallace have to do with Green?  And how is that "hav[ing] it both ways"? 

Wallace has largely sucked relative to his contract.  His production on a per minute basis is well below his historical norms.

Green has largely sucked relative to his contract.  His production on a per minute basis is exactly on par with his historical norms.

I don't want either one of them on the Celtics playing on their current contract.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 22, 2013, 08:10:47 PM
At least Green is tearing it up tonight.  Zero shots and two points in 11 minutes so far.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: albas89 on January 22, 2013, 08:17:09 PM
At least Green is tearing it up tonight.  Zero shots and two points in 11 minutes so far.
To be fair, I don't think they set anything for him... actually I think I didn't see any sets at all this whole half, just pick&pop play after pick&pop play after pick&pop play...
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 22, 2013, 08:21:03 PM
At least Green is tearing it up tonight.  Zero shots and two points in 11 minutes so far.
To be fair, I don't think they set anything for him... actually I think I didn't see any sets at all this whole half, just pick&pop play after pick&pop play after pick&pop play...

Good players don't need plays run for them to have an offensive impact.  The vast majority of the time, our offense isn't going to be running set plays with one specific player.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: mr. dee on January 22, 2013, 09:24:14 PM
Seriously, Pierce is killing the team right now. It's either reduce his minutes or he should come from the bench. Forcing ill-advised jumpers, sloppy turnover, can't even buy a bucket at the line.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Mazingerz on January 22, 2013, 09:35:13 PM
^ I seriously also think that PP is cooked.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Interceptor on January 22, 2013, 09:37:12 PM
I don't think we can take many more of those All-Star performances by Pierce. 3 for 15. At least he got rebounds and assists.

Please can we start Green?
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: blink on January 22, 2013, 09:42:09 PM
At least Green is tearing it up tonight.  Zero shots and two points in 11 minutes so far.

I don't see PP as having a much better game than JG.  He played a lot more minutes, was 3-15 for 12 points and shot really poorly down the stretch. 

Clear to me PP needs a few days off.  He is gassed, legs are shot, something.  Just is moving really poorly in general.  He needs a few DNP - Old.  Start JG while PP gets a break, figures out if he is injured or what the heck is going on with him.

Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: pp34isthe1 on January 22, 2013, 09:44:43 PM
Pierce will work through this slump, everyone is over-reacting. hes probably tired of losing and playing so many minutes because of Jeffs inconsistentcy. No one anticipated the C's to be this bad and honestly I think DA and Docs plan was to let JG play more than Pierce some games or start and rest Pierce.

Things didnt work out that way as we all know
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: blink on January 22, 2013, 09:51:06 PM
Pierce will work through this slump, everyone is over-reacting. hes probably tired of losing and playing so many minutes because of Jeffs inconsistentcy. No one anticipated the C's to be this bad and honestly I think DA and Docs plan was to let JG play more than Pierce some games or start and rest Pierce.

Things didnt work out that way as we all know

So PP's poor play is coming from being emotionally down over losing and having to play more minutes because of JG's bad play??  what???  That makes no sense to me.

Cmon, PP is mentally tougher than that.  I agree he will probably pop back out of his slump.  It is just that these slump(s) are happening a lot more often this year and it is really impacting the team.

The problem is I can't remember PP having such a long string of poor performances on offense.  His own inconsistency is just as big (or more) of a problem for the team than JG's.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: jbaerg on January 22, 2013, 09:55:28 PM
I think it's just a matter of Paul playing too many minutes in too many games. Gotta cut one of the two out. The guy needs a break. Remember how hot he was coming into the season?
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: nickagneta on January 22, 2013, 09:56:28 PM
Last year, when Ray Allen got hurt and Bradley took his starting position, a definite change could be seen in the play of this team. Bradley relieved Rondo of having to guard the best offensive player in the opponent's back court. His off the ball cuts and ability to run the floor and create turnovers with Rondo, helped make the offense less stagnant. His effect with the starters on the defensive end was staggering. They became one of the best defensive fives for the C's since 2008.

So when Doc sent Ray to the bench and started Bradley for good there was good reason for it. Ray was hurt and struggling, simultaneously. Bradley was playing well and he had obvious defensive advantages over Ray Allen and provided something different for the starting five. Namely, quickness, defense and a running game.

Thing is, as frustrated as some are with the play of this team, the removal of Pierce and inclusion of Green in the starting five isn't going to make this team better. Unlike the Allen-Bradley differences and dynamic that changed the team, the Green-Pierce difference isn't a positive one for the starters. Green brings nothing that Pierce doesn't already supply on a quantitative and qualitative basis. Simply put, you are taking out a great player to put in a mediocre role player.

Pierce is not having a Pierce at his best type of year. But he is still having an All-Star caliber year and benching him gains you nothing for a quality of basketball standpoint. And, it could lose Doc the locker room. Everyone in that locker room knows Pierce is not the problem with this team. Benching him, a stalwart of this era and the captain and locker room leader, for a guy who has a history of passivity and half heartedly giving an effort on many occasions, will not go over well with almost half the team, I am sure.

There is just nothing that shows that adding Green to the starting five will make him play better or the starting five play better. Pierce often plays with 3 or 4 bench players and none of those lineups show stats that make one believes Pierce or the bench will play better with Pierce coming off the bench.

So why risk it?

If you want to shake up a team, you don't bench its captain and one of the players giving a top effort for an overpaid mediocre role player that has a history of not showing up half the time. What you do is play guys giving you great effort the most minutes and have the GM trade one or two of the worst "effort" guys the heck out of town.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: blink on January 22, 2013, 09:57:22 PM
I think it's just a matter of Paul playing too many minutes in too many games. Gotta cut one of the two out. The guy needs a break. Remember how hot he was coming into the season?

I agree with this as well.  Gotta get PP some rest or something to help him get out of this slump.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 22, 2013, 10:04:08 PM
Last year, when Ray Allen got hurt and Bradley took his starting position, a definite change could be seen in the play of this team. Bradley relieved Rondo of having to guard the best offensive player in the opponent's back court. His off the ball cuts and ability to run the floor and create turnovers with Rondo, helped make the offense less stagnant. His effect with the starters on the defensive end was staggering. They became one of the best defensive fives for the C's since 2008.

So when Doc sent Ray to the bench and started Bradley for good there was good reason for it. Ray was hurt and struggling, simultaneously. Bradley was playing well and he had obvious defensive advantages over Ray Allen and provided something different for the starting five. Namely, quickness, defense and a running game.

Thing is, as frustrated as some are with the play of this team, the removal of Pierce and inclusion of Green in the starting five isn't going to make this team better. Unlike the Allen-Bradley differences and dynamic that changed the team, the Green-Pierce difference isn't a positive one for the starters. Green brings nothing that Pierce doesn't already supply on a quantitative and qualitative basis. Simply put, you are taking out a great player to put in a mediocre role player.

Pierce is not having a Pierce at his best type of year. But he is still having an All-Star caliber year and benching him gains you nothing for a quality of basketball standpoint. And, it could lose Doc the locker room. Everyone in that locker room knows Pierce is not the problem with this team. Benching him, a stalwart of this era and the captain and locker room leader, for a guy who has a history of passivity and half heartedly giving an effort on many occasions, will not go over well with almost half the team, I am sure.

There is just nothing that shows that adding Green to the starting five will make him play better or the starting five play better. Pierce often plays with 3 or 4 bench players and none of those lineups show stats that make one believes Pierce or the bench will play better with Pierce coming off the bench.

So why risk it?

If you want to shake up a team, you don't bench its captain and one of the players giving a top effort for an overpaid mediocre role player that has a history of not showing up half the time. What you do is play guys giving you great effort the most minutes and have the GM trade one or two of the worst "effort" guys the heck out of town.

This guy gets it. Perfectly stated and reasoned.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: EJPLAYA on January 22, 2013, 10:29:13 PM
I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that he continues to shoot us out of games when he plays like this. You can't take 15 shots when you are that off. It's selfish. Especially when you know you have dead legs. If he isn't willing to realize that he is on the decline and can't do what he could 4-5 years ago then a change needs to be made. When you're off, pass the dang ball. When you are on, then fill it up. Otherwise we will continue to lose like this.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: Roy H. on January 22, 2013, 10:41:33 PM
I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that he continues to shoot us out of games when he plays like this. You can't take 15 shots when you are that off. It's selfish. Especially when you know you have dead legs. If he isn't willing to realize that he is on the decline and can't do what he could 4-5 years ago then a change needs to be made. When you're off, pass the dang ball. When you are on, then fill it up. Otherwise we will continue to lose like this.

Pierce made mostly good decisions tonight.  He was smart in moving the ball, and most of his shots were open.  He just didn't hit them.

Should Pierce pass up open jumpers?  I don't think that would be helpful, even if he is in a bad slump.

I do think it's time to give him a game or two off, though.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: jbaerg on January 22, 2013, 10:43:02 PM
I'm not saying bench PP by any means. Just give him meaningful rest. It's clearly worked for Duncan/Manu.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: EJPLAYA on January 22, 2013, 11:33:20 PM
I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that he continues to shoot us out of games when he plays like this. You can't take 15 shots when you are that off. It's selfish. Especially when you know you have dead legs. If he isn't willing to realize that he is on the decline and can't do what he could 4-5 years ago then a change needs to be made. When you're off, pass the dang ball. When you are on, then fill it up. Otherwise we will continue to lose like this.

Pierce made mostly good decisions tonight.  He was smart in moving the ball, and most of his shots were open.  He just didn't hit them.

Should Pierce pass up open jumpers?  I don't think that would be helpful, even if he is in a bad slump.

I do think it's time to give him a game or two off, though.

On a 3-15 night, yes. This is becoming more and more frequent and he needs to learn that he needs to stop shooting when he is off. At least go to the rim and try to get to the free throw line.
Title: Re: Start Green, Pierce sixth man
Post by: CelticConcourse on January 22, 2013, 11:38:47 PM
As a huge Green fan, he should stay on the bench. Sorry.