CelticsStrong
Around the League => Transaction Ideas and Rumors => Topic started by: edwardjkasche on January 21, 2013, 01:22:10 PM
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I've crossed over. Completed my 180. I was always a proponent of this team and how it was constructed. I thought a healthy Bradley and acceptance of roles could solve many of this team's issues. I thought the vets would have kicked it into gear by now. I thought this team, as constructed, had a one-to-three-year shot at the championship.
But, now I don't believe any of that. All I believe is that this team is mediocre, not because of overall talent (this is a top-4 team in the East based solely on talent), but because of effort and drive and focus and heart. That is the reason why I don't see a 2010- or 2012-type turnaround. Those teams had heart, but were bothered by injuries and lack of depth. Once they got healthy, they battled deep into the post-season. This year's team has talent and depth. This year's team simply lacks heart.
Let's get one thing straight: This team is essentially completely healthy. There are no true injury concerns like in seasons past. Even without Bradley to start the season, the team should have been above .500. That is one reason why the .500 record now is so disturbing. We have some nicks and scratches, but nothing major. Look at the Bulls, winning without Rose and Deng. Look at us, with everyone on the court, losing to the lowly Hornets and Pistons.
I DON'T BLAME AINGE. His off-season additions were spectacular. He added youth, athleticism, 3-pt shooting, and defense. We were all excited that Rondo could run with the new athletic youths and that we now had a number of guys who could knock down the three. We also now had three shutdown defensive guards (Rondo, Bradley, Lee) (too bad Rondo stopped playing defense). You can nitpick losing out on a big man here or there, but he essentially replaced Allen, Daniels, Stiemsma, Pavlovic, O'Neal, and Pietrus with Terry, Lee, Green, Wilcox, Darko, Barbosa, Collins, and Sully. He re-signed KG, Bass, and Dooling. Moves we all liked at the time. It's not his fault Dooling or Darko left. He over-paid for Green, but our backup SF isn't what's hindering this team. And, when you're complaining about the lack of big men, remember that at the end of last season KG was our starting center and Bass was our starting PF, and that was working (their only backups were Stiemsma and a worthless O'Neal). Ainge brought in Darko and Collins and Wilcox to backup KG. He drafted Sully and Melo,and Sully has paid off big time right away. Ainge did his job.
I have always been a fan of Doc's off-court coaching. He is one of the great teachers and mentors. I've disagreed with Xs and Os here and there, and I blame his schemes for some issues - offensive droughts and offensive rebounding - but I DO NOT BLAME DOC FOR THIS YEAR'S STRUGGLES.
I BLAME PLAYERS.
I blame vets, like Rondo and Pierce, who seem to show up only when they want to. I blame new guys, whoever they may be, who aren't giving their all every night.
I see it as this:
Guys bringing effort every single game - KG, Sully, Bradley.
Guys bringing effort more often than not - Lee, Collins, Wilcox, Barbosa.
Guys bringing effort only when they want to (not often enough) - Rondo, Pierce, Terry, Green, Bass.
That last group is where I find my trade chips.
I'm ready for Ainge to pull the plug. It's not about talent. It's about heart. It's time to rebuild this team's heart. So what if it costs us this season. I'd much rather be on the new road to a championship.
1) Trade Rondo. I know he's the most divisive player amongst fans of this generation. I've usually supported him, except where an upgrade for someone like Chris Paul was concerned. Now? I'm done with Rondo. He's just too inconsistent to be a team leader. He's also our best trade chip.
It's ridiculous to write about hypothetical Rondo trades because almost every team in the NBA would be willing to trade for Rondo. All I'll say is that in exchange for Rondo Ainge needs to bring in a young, efficient 20ppg scorer (because of Trade #2 below). This player does not need to be a PG. We can always pick up a vet or run with Bradley and Lee. Rondo should also bring at least one first round draft pick and a few other throw-in players.
Rondo = 20ppg scorer, 1st round pick, throw-in players
2) Trade Pierce. The Truth is my favorite Celtic since Reggie Lewis, but he's doing more bad than good to this year's team. Hes playing inefficient offense and lazy defense. He only gets up for the games against the Knicks. Trading him to a contender now could bring back key players and draft picks. He can always sign a 1-day contract upon retirement and retire as a Celtic, and of course his # will go in the rafters, but I no longer believe we have to keep him here for the sake of loyalty.
Pierce = veteran low-post big man, draft pick or two
3) Include Bass, Green, or Terry in those trades to make salaries match. Bass makes $6, Green makes $8.5, Terry makes $5. That gives Ainge flexibility.
4) Build new team around Bradley, Sully, and guys brought in with trades. Do not trade Bradley or Sully. Keep Melo if possible. Keep Lee.
5) KG has two years left on his contract. If he plays it out, great. If he retires, immediately sign him as your Defensive Assistant Coach. And, hang his # up in the rafters. The man gave everything he had to this team, at an advanced age. He earned it.
So, I propose trading Rondo and Pierce, and any of Bass, Green, and Terry.
I propose building the new team around Bradley, Sully, Lee, Melo, and the talent that comes back in the trades. I propose locking up KG as a Celtic-for-life.
I know I'm not throwing out specific players in the Rondo and Pierce trades, but it could be literally anyone. Almost any team in the league would want Rondo, and any championship contender would want Pierce. So, let's start the discussion.
Your thoughts?
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I agree with 99% of what you said above. The only thing I really disagree with is..
Jeff Green, i think he is starting to come around lets not forget he is a year removed from have major surgery. Granted I would like for him to show more fire on the court but I just don't think thats his personality. Much the same way Pitinio traded away Joe Johnson for not seeming aggressive enough. As stupid as in may sound I kind of want to see Paul miss a couple games so that Green gets a crack at starting and see how he handles it.
I still think he can be our starting SF post PP.
I agree that it might come down to trading RR and PP but this comes with a major problem. With Rondo gone will the Celtics be able to attract and one if Free Agency ?? At least right now we no the likes of Josh Smith and Rudy Gay would love to play with Rondo.
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I second both of your comments. Green has perhaps earned another year due to his slow but steady improvement. If we can get something decent and young for PP, we need to do it!! Rondo should bring a boatload of talent for the future and hopefully guys that don't play matador defense as he does.
Smitty77
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Al Horford + 1 round pick for Rondo, so Rondo can play with his friend J.Smith in Atlanta, or A.Jefferson+ D.Favors for Rondo or Cousins for Rondo or Monroe + 1 round pick for Rondo....
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I was skeptical coming into this thread but i have to agree with alot of the points you made.
Two things i disagree with...
1. Doc needs more blame. Even Doc will admit he needs to do a better job with this team. He's not doing a good job of putting guys in positions to succeed.
2. It's not/ never will be time to trade Paul Pierce. He's more than earned the right to retire a Celtic. He's 35 and his body has taken a beating these past few years, of course he's going to have off nights but i can guarentee you PP can still bring it in the playoffs.
I agree that if we can get some good value (Ecspecially a big like Cousins) for Rondo then it's time for him to go. I'd rather build around younger guys like Sully and Bradley who bring it every night.
Pierce, KG, Bradley and Sully are keepers. Everyone else is fair game in my mind.
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will the Celtics be able to attract and one if Free Agency ?
I understand, but the Celtics have never been a popular free agent destination.
Ainge knows free agents don't flock to Boston, so he has to do his dirty work via trades, like when he brought Allen and KG here.
p.s. Over-paying for Josh Smith or Rudy Gay in free agency is not my answer to this team's troubles. Both Smith and Gay are inconsistent and inefficient and have never proven to be good leaders. Teaming them with Rondo via free agency doesn't get us anywhere, in my opinion.
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I DO NOT BLAME DOC FOR THIS YEAR'S STRUGGLES.
There is one thing you absolutely have to blame Doc for. He has done an unbelievably bad job of incorporating Terry into the offense while simultaneously relying on Terry too much despite his poor play. There are other points you can argue about and it doesn't excuse Terry's performance, but Doc's handling of him is one of the worst coaching jobs I've ever seen.
Mike
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Whenever Green's most recent game is a good one, people point to his coming around and improvement. He always follows up good performances with games in which he masters the art of invisibility.
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Al Horford + 1 round pick for Rondo, so Rondo can play with his friend J.Smith in Atlanta, or A.Jefferson+ D.Favors for Rondo or Cousins for Rondo or Monroe + 1 round pick for Rondo....
I like your line of thinking. It's realistic.
I wouldn't ever want Cousins, but I like the other three ideas. I'd tweak them a bit.
Rondo + Terry for Horford + Teague + 1st round
With Rondo, the Hawks wouldn't need Teague. Terry replaces Lou Williams (out for the year). I like Teague's game. Horford is the key though. Draft pick may not work if these four players are included.
Rondo + Bass + Terry for Jefferson + Favors + Burks
Salaries match. We'd get two front court guys and a young PG. They get a new PG, backup SG, and a big to replace Favors.
Rondo for Prince + Monroe + Knight
They get a PG to help set their roster. We get a big like Monroe and a young PG. We also get Prince, who could allow us to then trade Pierce or Green in another trade. The salaries are toughest to match with Detroit.
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To everyone who disagrees with me saying I don't blame Doc for this year's struggles:
Do you think this team would be above .500 with a different coach???
Name an available coach who you would want to replace Doc right now.
I agree that Doc has flaws - his mishandling of Terry is one I've mentioned before on this site - but he has busted his ass to get these guys to buy into their roles and play harder on the court. They're not listening and playing hard.
I don't think changing coaches improves this team.
I'm more ready to trade players than change coaches.
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Trade 1: Pierce to Memphis, Gay to Utah, Jefferson, and Pondexter to Boston
Trade 2: Rondo and Bass to Sacramento, Cousins, Evans, Garcia and first to Boston
C's:
Evans / Terry / Barbosa
Bradley / Lee / Evans / Terry
Green / Garcia / Pondexter / Lee
Garnett / Jefferson / Sullinger / Wilcox
Cousins / Garnett/ Jefferson / Wilcox
Very good backcourt with Evans, Bradley, Lee, Terry and Barbosa
The greatest frontcourt with Garnett, Cousins, Jefferson, Sullinger and Wilcox- in all time we would have 2 BIGs and 2 GREAT REBOUNDERS on parket
The weakest area is SF with Green, Garcia, Pondexter and Lee
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Al Horford + 1 round pick for Rondo, so Rondo can play with his friend J.Smith in Atlanta, or A.Jefferson+ D.Favors for Rondo or Cousins for Rondo or Monroe + 1 round pick for Rondo....
I like your line of thinking. It's realistic.
I wouldn't ever want Cousins, but I like the other three ideas. I'd tweak them a bit.
Rondo + Terry for Horford + Teague + 1st round
With Rondo, the Hawks wouldn't need Teague. Terry replaces Lou Williams (out for the year). I like Teague's game. Horford is the key though. Draft pick may not work if these four players are included.
Rondo + Bass + Terry for Jefferson + Favors + Burks
Salaries match. We'd get two front court guys and a young PG. They get a new PG, backup SG, and a big to replace Favors.
Rondo for Prince + Monroe + Knight
They get a PG to help set their roster. We get a big like Monroe and a young PG. We also get Prince, who could allow us to then trade Pierce or Green in another trade. The salaries are toughest to match with Detroit.
You are overrating Rondo's value.
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Name an available coach who you would want to replace Doc right now.
Jeff Van Gundy. Heck, I think Stan Van Gundy or even Scott Skiles would change things up. You can say a lot of things about Skiles but his teams never fail to compete the way Boston has the past few years.
Mike
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For Me move Bass for something that can net us a big rebounder and 3 point shooter. Hopefully we could do something like this.
Bass Lee Collins 2nd round pick
For
Gortat and Dudley
We get a good defender/3 point shooter back and Gortat someone who protects the rim rebounds and good with Rondo on pick and roll and not have to be pick and pop every play.
Rondo/Terry/AB
Bradley/Terry
Pierce/Green/Dudley
KG/Sully/Green
Gortat/Sully/Melo?
This allows our second unit to go small and run while our first unit is a well balanced half court/running team.
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For Me move Bass for something that can net us a big rebounder and 3 point shooter. Hopefully we could do something like this.
Bass Lee Collins 2nd round pick
For
Gortat and Dudley
We get a good defender/3 point shooter back and Gortat someone who protects the rim rebounds and good with Rondo on pick and roll and not have to be pick and pop every play.
Rondo/Terry/AB
Bradley/Terry
Pierce/Green/Dudley
KG/Sully/Green
Gortat/Sully/Melo?
This allows our second unit to go small and run while our first unit is a well balanced half court/running team.
I think that is the type of package we will send out but I doubt we are able to get that much for those players.
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For Me move Bass for something that can net us a big rebounder and 3 point shooter. Hopefully we could do something like this.
Bass Lee Collins 2nd round pick
For
Gortat and Dudley
We get a good defender/3 point shooter back and Gortat someone who protects the rim rebounds and good with Rondo on pick and roll and not have to be pick and pop every play.
Rondo/Terry/AB
Bradley/Terry
Pierce/Green/Dudley
KG/Sully/Green
Gortat/Sully/Melo?
This allows our second unit to go small and run while our first unit is a well balanced half court/running team.
I think that is the type of package we will send out but I doubt we are able to get that much for those players.
True maybe throw in next years 1st round pick?
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For Me move Bass for something that can net us a big rebounder and 3 point shooter. Hopefully we could do something like this.
Bass Lee Collins 2nd round pick
For
Gortat and Dudley
We get a good defender/3 point shooter back and Gortat someone who protects the rim rebounds and good with Rondo on pick and roll and not have to be pick and pop every play.
Rondo/Terry/AB
Bradley/Terry
Pierce/Green/Dudley
KG/Sully/Green
Gortat/Sully/Melo?
This allows our second unit to go small and run while our first unit is a well balanced half court/running team.
I think that is the type of package we will send out but I doubt we are able to get that much for those players.
I would include Terry instead of Lee. Don't know if it sways Phoenix one way or the other, but I'd rather have the younger Lee than the older Terry on our team.
Plus, Lee has shown more confidence and effort of late, while Terry is still doing what exactly. He seems like he came here to retire.
All in all though, I don't think this trade improves our team much. It's going to have many of the same issues.
I honestly think the team's main issue now is LEADERSHIP. Doc alluded to it in his interview.
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You are overrating Rondo's value.
Very well could be. But, if traded now, I think Ainge is still selling high. Many teams would be ecstatic to add Rondo, either to win or boost excitement and credibility.
If done right, I think Ainge could fleece a team for a bit more than Rondo's actually worth.
I DO NOT recommend trading him for less than he's worth. We aren't at the point of trading him just for the sake of trading him.
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Yes lack of leadership may be the problem. I also think getting to the rim is a big problem, and its not freeing up our shooters. If Rondo could have someone roll with him more often then not than I think that helps a ton. Gortat has great hands and rolls to the rim with the best of em. KG mostly pop's out along with Bass. I think this is causing everyone to sit outside while Rondo is the only one going to the hole. Gortat free's that up and makes AB's man slide down and he is in the corner. IDK i just think that is the best way for our team to improve helps on both ends of the court.
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+1 TP...you nailed it..I don't want to rebuild but everything you said makes complete sense and the players the only bring it when the want too are the root of our problems.
The only challenge I have is Rondo, while regular season RONDO is infuriating, playoff Rondo is a beast...it is just so tough when you have to watch 82 games of Rondo, not knowing what to expect...When you average out the entire year Rondo is a top 50 player..in the playoffs he plays like a top 5 player in the NBA
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One thing I consistently see on this board is people overrating the worth of a non max player playing out his final year. How much is 1/4 a season of Gortat worth? Not as much as people on this board seem to think. He doesn't have a huge salary so it isn't like you just let him walk and get a big salary relief. The Suns aren't going anywhere.
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One thing I consistently see on this board is people overrating the worth of a non max player playing out his final year. How much is 1/4 a season of Gortat worth? Not as much as people on this board seem to think. He doesn't have a huge salary so it isn't like you just let him walk and get a big salary relief. The Suns aren't going anywhere.
But gortat helps this team right now. He is another shot blocker unlike bass. He rolls to the rim unlike Bass and KG. He rebounds at a better clip than Bass. He helps this team for this season without a doubt. I am not saying he is the best center but could be our best choice and help this team a lot.
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I DO NOT BLAME DOC FOR THIS YEAR'S STRUGGLES.
There is one thing you absolutely have to blame Doc for. He has done an unbelievably bad job of incorporating Terry into the offense while simultaneously relying on Terry too much despite his poor play. There are other points you can argue about and it doesn't excuse Terry's performance, but Doc's handling of him is one of the worst coaching jobs I've ever seen.
Mike
I go back and forth about Terry. One thing I've noticed from time to time is that the Celts run a play but it seems like Terry doesn't know the set and messes it up. I have definitely seen Rondo, KG and Pierce trying to point him to a spot in the middle of a play, and then seem frustrated.
It's hard to pick up on this on TV, but I saw one game in person and it was really apparent to me.
It's confusing, because Terry is a vet and I don't view the Celtics' offense as all that complicated.
Anyone else noticed this too?
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It's confusing, because Terry is a vet and I don't view the Celtics' offense as all that complicated.
Terry is a vet who is used to 2 NBA plays on which he thrived.
1) Pick-and-roll with Dirk.
2) Iso with the ball in his hands, usually at the corner of the arc.
Neither of those plays are really in the Celtics system.
I expected some "Terry plays" to be added, but none have. He basically runs Allen's old baseline double-screen plays.
But even without the comfort of his old plays, I thought he'd be a better vet on this team. He has been disappointing.
I like it when Terry drives and takes the pull-up or floater. I think that sets him up nicely to launch his threes.
But, he's been disappointing, and I'd rather keep the younger Lee (who plays better defense and attacks the basket more often) on the team and trade Terry, if applicable.
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Agree with all but pierce. Green is done. Can't stand his up and down anymore
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Besides KG Sully & AB, everyone else can go. We better do something.
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Besides KG Sully & AB, everyone else can go. We better do something.
I'm sorry but would be stupid to trade pierce or Rondo right now. I would be willing to move AB if it meant getting someone like Josh Smith in return. Clee could start in a lineup of
Rondo
Lee
Pierce
Smith
KG
Would be a very good defensive team. I just think trading Pierce or Rondo would be dumb. Rondo ONLY if he brings back a lot but would be doubtful.
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One thing I consistently see on this board is people overrating the worth of a non max player playing out his final year. How much is 1/4 a season of Gortat worth? Not as much as people on this board seem to think. He doesn't have a huge salary so it isn't like you just let him walk and get a big salary relief. The Suns aren't going anywhere.
This is not Gortat's final year, his 7.5 mill contract expires after next season.
My only issue with Gortat is what it would take to get him. They are not taking a package centered around bass nor should they. Go take a peak on the suns forum and they all seem to think our offers are trash and that's WITH Bradley/Sully included in the deal.
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TP to the OP, great post.
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This is also interesting and actually possible depending on where Sac is with regards to Cousins. A little concerned about Green starting at SF but that is a monster front line. That's just beating up on people... Good suggestions.
Trade 1: Pierce to Memphis, Gay to Utah, Jefferson, and Pondexter to Boston
Trade 2: Rondo and Bass to Sacramento, Cousins, Evans, Garcia and first to Boston
C's:
Evans / Terry / Barbosa
Bradley / Lee / Evans / Terry
Green / Garcia / Pondexter / Lee
Garnett / Jefferson / Sullinger / Wilcox
Cousins / Garnett/ Jefferson / Wilcox
Very good backcourt with Evans, Bradley, Lee, Terry and Barbosa
The greatest frontcourt with Garnett, Cousins, Jefferson, Sullinger and Wilcox- in all time we would have 2 BIGs and 2 GREAT REBOUNDERS on parket
The weakest area is SF with Green, Garcia, Pondexter and Lee
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This is also interesting and actually possible depending on where Sac is with regards to Cousins. A little concerned about Green starting at SF but that is a monster front line. That's just beating up on people... Good suggestions.
Trade 1: Pierce to Memphis, Gay to Utah, Jefferson, and Pondexter to Boston
Trade 2: Rondo and Bass to Sacramento, Cousins, Evans, Garcia and first to Boston
C's:
Evans / Terry / Barbosa
Bradley / Lee / Evans / Terry
Green / Garcia / Pondexter / Lee
Garnett / Jefferson / Sullinger / Wilcox
Cousins / Garnett/ Jefferson / Wilcox
Very good backcourt with Evans, Bradley, Lee, Terry and Barbosa
The greatest frontcourt with Garnett, Cousins, Jefferson, Sullinger and Wilcox- in all time we would have 2 BIGs and 2 GREAT REBOUNDERS on parket
The weakest area is SF with Green, Garcia, Pondexter and Lee
I don't know where he would go but Sully would have to be included somewhere in this deal. That's too much of a return to not include Sully I think. But even with Sully gone it's a team with a 6-7 year window going forward.
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I don't think moving Rondo and Peirce would be the smart thing because KG would be gone the next. Unless you decide to do a couple reboot. But I just don't see KG going into battle with out either Rondo or PP.
I hate that Rondo takes games off. But it hurts the team when PP's body takes a game off. If DA has the chance and it came down to either one, I see PP gone before Rondo.
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One thing I consistently see on this board is people overrating the worth of a non max player playing out his final year. How much is 1/4 a season of Gortat worth? Not as much as people on this board seem to think. He doesn't have a huge salary so it isn't like you just let him walk and get a big salary relief. The Suns aren't going anywhere.
This is not Gortat's final year, his 7.5 mill contract expires after next season.
My only issue with Gortat is what it would take to get him. They are not taking a package centered around bass nor should they. Go take a peak on the suns forum and they all seem to think our offers are trash and that's WITH Bradley/Sully included in the deal.
Well, first off, I assume their fans are overestimating how much Gortat is worth too. Would they rather keep him and let him go for nothing in the off season?
They might not like Bass and maybe they think that 6mil could be better spent elsewhere, but who are they going to get in the summer as good as Bass for 6mil?
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Wicklow:
I enjoy your posts and respect what you have to say, but I think that you have the right conclusion for exactly the wrong reason.
It was never going to be about heart. This team was built on three hall of famers who all had the tenacity to build their games into something way beyond their talent and physical abilities alone. Then they had the tenacity to reinvent themselves for the sake of playing better together. They joined a point guard who folks said couldn't make it in the NBA because he couldn't shoot and didn't have the pedigree to run a championship caliber offense, who has now reinvented himself as the best passer in basketball and an above average midrange shooter.
The simple facts are that Allen is gone, and Garnett and Pierce are past their primes to the point where not only are their abilities fading, but the fade itself is accelerating. Pierce isn't taking bad shots because he doesn't care- he's taking bad shots because they used to go in. Garnett isn't getting beat because he isn't focussed, he's getting beat because he can no longer jump high enough quick enough to steal a lob away from Andre Drummond even when he is in a perfect position to do so.
Is heart the reason why Jeff Green isn't a better basketball player, despite his tools? Maybe you could sell me on that, but he still has never been a particularly good player. I guess if he had more heart he would work harder, focus harder, and make himself into one. In that sense, the problem isn't his heart now. The problem is that he hasn't had heart for his whole career.
Is heart the problem with Brandon Bass? Again, has Brandon Bass ever been a plus player? Over his career, he rates as an average player at best, and he was 1.5 points per 48 minutes worse than average last year, when by all accounts we were positively lousy with heart. He's a solid backup player... who ever thought he was going to be an impact starter?
Is heart the problem with Rajon Rondo? Let's remember how much Rajon Rondo is being paid before we go too far with that. Rondo is not a max player, though we continue to have those kind of hopes for him. He is a facilitator to the bone, and he has one of the most team friendly contracts in the league. Perhaps he isn't the leader or the alpha that the team needs, but he's our most productive player and he's an undeniable bargain.
Is heart the problem with the suddenly barely-average Jason Terry? Terry is the worst kind of aging vet- a small one. Size is the only thing father time doesn't take away from you. Undersized shooting guards are the least likely of all types of players to have long careers.
Heart makes for a good narrative, because none of us like talking about aging. This was always going to end, though, guys, and it was always going to be ugly precisely because they have so much heart. Heart made Kareem stick around until he could barely move. Heart made Larry play in a giant flak jacket. Heart made Brett Favre come back three times until he finally turned his narrative from "greatest qb ever" to embarrassment.
Pierce and Garnett will both look bad before they fade back into complimentary roles like most men their age, and it won't be because of their heart. This team is built to compliment KG, Pierce, and Rondo. It was never going to keep dominating when those guys were no longer capable of dominating.
So with all of that said, I do agree with your conclusion. This team will only improve going forward if Sullinger and Green can take the mantle. I don't think that is going to happen, particularly in Green's case. Blowing it up will be the right choice, probably, some day. Maybe today. I think that what is happening here, though, is a lot more dignified than what you are making it into.
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Besides KG Sully & AB, everyone else can go. We better do something.
I'm sorry but would be stupid to trade pierce or Rondo right now. I would be willing to move AB if it meant getting someone like Josh Smith in return. Clee could start in a lineup of
Rondo
Lee
Pierce
Smith
KG
Would be a very good defensive team. I just think trading Pierce or Rondo would be dumb. Rondo ONLY if he brings back a lot but would be doubtful.
I'm sorry but i disagree with you. At this point trading a 35 year old pierce that decides to show up when he feels like it would be far from stupid.
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Cant make 2 or 3 trades..Be lucky to get one done. I think either Milsap or Josh Smith may be our only options of getting an All-Star. Also C's not trading PP or Rajon
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Besides KG Sully & AB, everyone else can go. We better do something.
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I agree with this. I thought hard about it. keep the young guns who show up every night. Keep the warrior named KG. but the rest? meh. blah. totally expendable right now.
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Wicklow:
I enjoy your posts and respect what you have to say, but I think that you have the right conclusion for exactly the wrong reason.
It was never going to be about heart. This team was built on three hall of famers who all had the tenacity to build their games into something way beyond their talent and physical abilities alone. Then they had the tenacity to reinvent themselves for the sake of playing better together. They joined a point guard who folks said couldn't make it in the NBA because he couldn't shoot and didn't have the pedigree to run a championship caliber offense, who has now reinvented himself as the best passer in basketball and an above average midrange shooter.
The simple facts are that Allen is gone, and Garnett and Pierce are past their primes to the point where not only are their abilities fading, but the fade itself is accelerating. Pierce isn't taking bad shots because he doesn't care- he's taking bad shots because they used to go in. Garnett isn't getting beat because he isn't focussed, he's getting beat because he can no longer jump high enough quick enough to steal a lob away from Andre Drummond even when he is in a perfect position to do so.
Is heart the reason why Jeff Green isn't a better basketball player, despite his tools? Maybe you could sell me on that, but he still has never been a particularly good player. I guess if he had more heart he would work harder, focus harder, and make himself into one. In that sense, the problem isn't his heart now. The problem is that he hasn't had heart for his whole career.
Is heart the problem with Brandon Bass? Again, has Brandon Bass ever been a plus player? Over his career, he rates as an average player at best, and he was 1.5 points per 48 minutes worse than average last year, when by all accounts we were positively lousy with heart. He's a solid backup player... who ever thought he was going to be an impact starter?
Is heart the problem with Rajon Rondo? Let's remember how much Rajon Rondo is being paid before we go too far with that. Rondo is not a max player, though we continue to have those kind of hopes for him. He is a facilitator to the bone, and he has one of the most team friendly contracts in the league. Perhaps he isn't the leader or the alpha that the team needs, but he's our most productive player and he's an undeniable bargain.
Is heart the problem with the suddenly barely-average Jason Terry? Terry is the worst kind of aging vet- a small one. Size is the only thing father time doesn't take away from you. Undersized shooting guards are the least likely of all types of players to have long careers.
Heart makes for a good narrative, because none of us like talking about aging. This was always going to end, though, guys, and it was always going to be ugly precisely because they have so much heart. Heart made Kareem stick around until he could barely move. Heart made Larry play in a giant flak jacket. Heart made Brett Favre come back three times until he finally turned his narrative from "greatest qb ever" to embarrassment.
Pierce and Garnett will both look bad before they fade back into complimentary roles like most men their age, and it won't be because of their heart. This team is built to compliment KG, Pierce, and Rondo. It was never going to keep dominating when those guys were no longer capable of dominating.
So with all of that said, I do agree with your conclusion. This team will only improve going forward if Sullinger and Green can take the mantle. I don't think that is going to happen, particularly in Green's case. Blowing it up will be the right choice, probably, some day. Maybe today. I think that what is happening here, though, is a lot more dignified than what you are making it into.
I feel exactly the same. TP. The legs can make the heart look real bad....
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Wicklow:
I enjoy your posts and respect what you have to say, but I think that you have the right conclusion for exactly the wrong reason.
It was never going to be about heart. This team was built on three hall of famers who all had the tenacity to build their games into something way beyond their talent and physical abilities alone. Then they had the tenacity to reinvent themselves for the sake of playing better together. They joined a point guard who folks said couldn't make it in the NBA because he couldn't shoot and didn't have the pedigree to run a championship caliber offense, who has now reinvented himself as the best passer in basketball and an above average midrange shooter.
The simple facts are that Allen is gone, and Garnett and Pierce are past their primes to the point where not only are their abilities fading, but the fade itself is accelerating. Pierce isn't taking bad shots because he doesn't care- he's taking bad shots because they used to go in. Garnett isn't getting beat because he isn't focussed, he's getting beat because he can no longer jump high enough quick enough to steal a lob away from Andre Drummond even when he is in a perfect position to do so.
Is heart the reason why Jeff Green isn't a better basketball player, despite his tools? Maybe you could sell me on that, but he still has never been a particularly good player. I guess if he had more heart he would work harder, focus harder, and make himself into one. In that sense, the problem isn't his heart now. The problem is that he hasn't had heart for his whole career.
Is heart the problem with Brandon Bass? Again, has Brandon Bass ever been a plus player? Over his career, he rates as an average player at best, and he was 1.5 points per 48 minutes worse than average last year, when by all accounts we were positively lousy with heart. He's a solid backup player... who ever thought he was going to be an impact starter?
Is heart the problem with Rajon Rondo? Let's remember how much Rajon Rondo is being paid before we go too far with that. Rondo is not a max player, though we continue to have those kind of hopes for him. He is a facilitator to the bone, and he has one of the most team friendly contracts in the league. Perhaps he isn't the leader or the alpha that the team needs, but he's our most productive player and he's an undeniable bargain.
Is heart the problem with the suddenly barely-average Jason Terry? Terry is the worst kind of aging vet- a small one. Size is the only thing father time doesn't take away from you. Undersized shooting guards are the least likely of all types of players to have long careers.
Heart makes for a good narrative, because none of us like talking about aging. This was always going to end, though, guys, and it was always going to be ugly precisely because they have so much heart. Heart made Kareem stick around until he could barely move. Heart made Larry play in a giant flak jacket. Heart made Brett Favre come back three times until he finally turned his narrative from "greatest qb ever" to embarrassment.
Pierce and Garnett will both look bad before they fade back into complimentary roles like most men their age, and it won't be because of their heart. This team is built to compliment KG, Pierce, and Rondo. It was never going to keep dominating when those guys were no longer capable of dominating.
So with all of that said, I do agree with your conclusion. This team will only improve going forward if Sullinger and Green can take the mantle. I don't think that is going to happen, particularly in Green's case. Blowing it up will be the right choice, probably, some day. Maybe today. I think that what is happening here, though, is a lot more dignified than what you are making it into.
I feel exactly the same. TP. The legs can make the heart look real bad....
I am about fifteen years past my prime and agree whole heartedly! Even ferocious competitors like Ewing, Akeem, MJ, McHale, Bird eventually look ordinary on the court. It would be nice if guys walked before the big drop off.
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Wicklow:
I enjoy your posts and respect what you have to say, but I think that you have the right conclusion for exactly the wrong reason.
It was never going to be about heart. This team was built on three hall of famers who all had the tenacity to build their games into something way beyond their talent and physical abilities alone. Then they had the tenacity to reinvent themselves for the sake of playing better together. They joined a point guard who folks said couldn't make it in the NBA because he couldn't shoot and didn't have the pedigree to run a championship caliber offense, who has now reinvented himself as the best passer in basketball and an above average midrange shooter.
The simple facts are that Allen is gone, and Garnett and Pierce are past their primes to the point where not only are their abilities fading, but the fade itself is accelerating. Pierce isn't taking bad shots because he doesn't care- he's taking bad shots because they used to go in. Garnett isn't getting beat because he isn't focussed, he's getting beat because he can no longer jump high enough quick enough to steal a lob away from Andre Drummond even when he is in a perfect position to do so.
Is heart the reason why Jeff Green isn't a better basketball player, despite his tools? Maybe you could sell me on that, but he still has never been a particularly good player. I guess if he had more heart he would work harder, focus harder, and make himself into one. In that sense, the problem isn't his heart now. The problem is that he hasn't had heart for his whole career.
Is heart the problem with Brandon Bass? Again, has Brandon Bass ever been a plus player? Over his career, he rates as an average player at best, and he was 1.5 points per 48 minutes worse than average last year, when by all accounts we were positively lousy with heart. He's a solid backup player... who ever thought he was going to be an impact starter?
Is heart the problem with Rajon Rondo? Let's remember how much Rajon Rondo is being paid before we go too far with that. Rondo is not a max player, though we continue to have those kind of hopes for him. He is a facilitator to the bone, and he has one of the most team friendly contracts in the league. Perhaps he isn't the leader or the alpha that the team needs, but he's our most productive player and he's an undeniable bargain.
Is heart the problem with the suddenly barely-average Jason Terry? Terry is the worst kind of aging vet- a small one. Size is the only thing father time doesn't take away from you. Undersized shooting guards are the least likely of all types of players to have long careers.
Heart makes for a good narrative, because none of us like talking about aging. This was always going to end, though, guys, and it was always going to be ugly precisely because they have so much heart. Heart made Kareem stick around until he could barely move. Heart made Larry play in a giant flak jacket. Heart made Brett Favre come back three times until he finally turned his narrative from "greatest qb ever" to embarrassment.
Pierce and Garnett will both look bad before they fade back into complimentary roles like most men their age, and it won't be because of their heart. This team is built to compliment KG, Pierce, and Rondo. It was never going to keep dominating when those guys were no longer capable of dominating.
So with all of that said, I do agree with your conclusion. This team will only improve going forward if Sullinger and Green can take the mantle. I don't think that is going to happen, particularly in Green's case. Blowing it up will be the right choice, probably, some day. Maybe today. I think that what is happening here, though, is a lot more dignified than what you are making it into.
All spot on.
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Have you noticed that every year they seem to play like crap and a bunch of dysfunctional players around trade time? I think they do it purposely to keep other teams from becoming too interested in them and squash any trades before they happen. I'm probably off base here but these players are much better than they have been showing.
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Wicklow:
I enjoy your posts and respect what you have to say, but I think that you have the right conclusion for exactly the wrong reason.
It was never going to be about heart. This team was built on three hall of famers who all had the tenacity to build their games into something way beyond their talent and physical abilities alone. Then they had the tenacity to reinvent themselves for the sake of playing better together. They joined a point guard who folks said couldn't make it in the NBA because he couldn't shoot and didn't have the pedigree to run a championship caliber offense, who has now reinvented himself as the best passer in basketball and an above average midrange shooter.
The simple facts are that Allen is gone, and Garnett and Pierce are past their primes to the point where not only are their abilities fading, but the fade itself is accelerating. Pierce isn't taking bad shots because he doesn't care- he's taking bad shots because they used to go in. Garnett isn't getting beat because he isn't focussed, he's getting beat because he can no longer jump high enough quick enough to steal a lob away from Andre Drummond even when he is in a perfect position to do so.
Is heart the reason why Jeff Green isn't a better basketball player, despite his tools? Maybe you could sell me on that, but he still has never been a particularly good player. I guess if he had more heart he would work harder, focus harder, and make himself into one. In that sense, the problem isn't his heart now. The problem is that he hasn't had heart for his whole career.
Is heart the problem with Brandon Bass? Again, has Brandon Bass ever been a plus player? Over his career, he rates as an average player at best, and he was 1.5 points per 48 minutes worse than average last year, when by all accounts we were positively lousy with heart. He's a solid backup player... who ever thought he was going to be an impact starter?
Is heart the problem with Rajon Rondo? Let's remember how much Rajon Rondo is being paid before we go too far with that. Rondo is not a max player, though we continue to have those kind of hopes for him. He is a facilitator to the bone, and he has one of the most team friendly contracts in the league. Perhaps he isn't the leader or the alpha that the team needs, but he's our most productive player and he's an undeniable bargain.
Is heart the problem with the suddenly barely-average Jason Terry? Terry is the worst kind of aging vet- a small one. Size is the only thing father time doesn't take away from you. Undersized shooting guards are the least likely of all types of players to have long careers.
Heart makes for a good narrative, because none of us like talking about aging. This was always going to end, though, guys, and it was always going to be ugly precisely because they have so much heart. Heart made Kareem stick around until he could barely move. Heart made Larry play in a giant flak jacket. Heart made Brett Favre come back three times until he finally turned his narrative from "greatest qb ever" to embarrassment.
Pierce and Garnett will both look bad before they fade back into complimentary roles like most men their age, and it won't be because of their heart. This team is built to compliment KG, Pierce, and Rondo. It was never going to keep dominating when those guys were no longer capable of dominating.
So with all of that said, I do agree with your conclusion. This team will only improve going forward if Sullinger and Green can take the mantle. I don't think that is going to happen, particularly in Green's case. Blowing it up will be the right choice, probably, some day. Maybe today. I think that what is happening here, though, is a lot more dignified than what you are making it into.
Nice points.
But, first off, I'm not calling out KG. I know how old Pierce and KG are. I'm not expecting them to play like they're 27. I know there is diminishing returns on their talent. But, I never called out KG for heart. Even at 37, KG brings energy and passion every single game. His legs may not be able to keep up with his heart, but he [dang] well tries.
My issue with Pierce has nothing to do with his legs or being tired during back-to-backs. My concern with Pierce has to do with staying in front of his man, closing out on his man, boxing out his man, taking smarter shots, and performing other simple basketball responsibilities. Like I said, Pierce has been my fave Celtic since Reggie Lewis, but Pierce is not showing any Captain leadership by half-assing it out there. He has his big games (usually against the Knicks), but when he decides to half-ass it, he truly half-asses it. He has played some disgraceful games against lesser competition, and I refuse to blame that on old legs. I blame it on a lack of focus and a withering heart.
Finally, age doesn't cover any of the other guys not giving heart - RONDO, Bass, Terry, Green (and I give Green a slight pass due to his surgery, but we all know this is the player he is).
This team is lazy, and I refuse to blame it on age. There are only four guys on this team over the age of 30. We have a young team. It's just that no one is leading and no one is playing with heart. That's why I say it's time to end this now before it gets any worse.
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I don't think moving Rondo and Peirce would be the smart thing because KG would be gone the next. Unless you decide to do a couple reboot. But I just don't see KG going into battle with out either Rondo or PP.
I hate that Rondo takes games off. But it hurts the team when PP's body takes a game off. If DA has the chance and it came down to either one, I see PP gone before Rondo.
And you know this how? Has KG made this clear or are you just speaking random nonsense? I don't think KG will leave as long as we're contending for a championship and doc is here.
*Edit* I read the whole post sorry i agree with most of what you said except that bold sentence.