CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: arctic 3.0 on January 21, 2013, 11:52:56 AM
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I've always been a big rondo fan...
that said i have become disillusioned with his potential to be the cornerstone of future celtic teams.
his incredible performances against top tier opposition and superstar level play in the playoffs have always made me forgive his lackluster, inconsistent regular season play.
but here's the thing... what happens when KG and pierce are gone and we go through an almost inevitable year or more of mediocrity? is rondo going to step up and lead with fire and consistent performances during this transition?
I doubt it, in fact i think he will A: sulk, B: become disinterested and C: eventually demand a trade.
if we get to this point his trade value will be much less then it is today.
so, lets just go ahead and bite the bullet, trade him now while his value is still super high.
could be that this lights a career long fire in his belly and he makes me eat my words.
but thats fine because I now believe that he has become to complacent and sure of his position, that he will continue to preform at superstar level only as long as the c's are competitive. if/when the c's falter he is not the kind of player to lead us through a rebuild.
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How much would you need in return to part with Rondo?
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How much would you need in return to part with Rondo?
Me personally would at least need an all star (or upcoming all star).
No picks, I don't want draft picks.
What I would want we prob couldn't get.
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I've always been a big rondo fan...
that said i have become disillusioned with his potential to be the cornerstone of future celtic teams.
his incredible performances against top tier opposition and superstar level play in the playoffs have always made me forgive his lackluster, inconsistent regular season play.
but here's the thing... what happens when KG and pierce are gone and we go through an almost inevitable year or more of mediocrity? is rondo going to step up and lead with fire and consistent performances during this transition?
I doubt it, in fact i think he will A: sulk, B: become disinterested and C: eventually demand a trade.
if we get to this point his trade value will be much less then it is today.
so, lets just go ahead and bite the bullet, trade him now while his value is still super high.
could be that this lights a career long fire in his belly and he makes me eat my words.
but thats fine because I now believe that he has become to complacent and sure of his position, that he will continue to preform at superstar level only as long as the c's are competitive. if/when the c's falter he is not the kind of player to lead us through a rebuild.
This doesn't seem much different than all the posts claiming we needed to trade Rondo after he was included in trade rumors because he was going to sulk all year.
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I just like to see the Celtics have better ball movement on the floor when Rondo's on the floor than when he's not. Is that too much to ask from your lead point guard, someone considered one of the very best pure points in the league? The endless ball-hogging kills me.
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i generally agree w the OP
but rondo does seem fairly loyal to doc and the organization, he's hard to read bc hes so quiet.
but i'm hoping that its possible that when KG and PP aren't around at all then he will really step up his effort/ scoring bc then it will really be his show,his team, not just people saying that it is.
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How much would you need in return to part with Rondo?
A lot.
A package with rondo in it would have to return at least a player like dmc, or similar plus a high lotto pick or young player with potential.
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I too am a big fan of Rondo and think he is a unique, rare talent that puts up the biggest numbers when it matters the most.
The three things I struggle with Rondo with are:
1. As mentioned, his lackluster and inconsistent effort much of the time.
2. Stupid turnover trying to make the "highlight play"
3. Matador defense - or at least that's what it appears to be to to me. Guy's just waltzing by him left front and center -or him losing track of his man -who gets a layup.
I wish that he'd just take all that talent, and focus it with smart, fundamental, 101 basketball. He'd have a triple double every night.
I would consider trading Rondo as well. To answer another poster, what I would want in return is one superstar at positions 2-5 and a 'good" point guard who can shoot consistently from the top of the key and three land.
For this team, if I could pull off Rondo, Green and Melo for Cousins, John Salmons and Isaiah Thomas, I'd seriously consider it if Sac was looking for a salary dump.
Cousins / KG / Sully / Pierce and Bradley could possibly get us a ring this year. That front line would beat people up in the paint. Isaiah Thomas can knock down open jumpers.
Cousins / Collins / Wilcox
KG / Sully / Bass
Pierce / Salmons
Bradley / Lee
Isaiah / Barbosa / Jet
If Cousins panned out, he and Sully could be a force to be reckoned with for the next 10+ years.
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I'm not saying I'd do that trade but I'd think about something along those lines.
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How much would you need in return to part with Rondo?
I would move him for the following players:
Steph Curry (this is a deal that really should have happened a few years ago, now it's too late)
Rudy Gay
Jrue Holiday
Damian Lilliard
Kyrie Irving
Chris Paul
(along with all the obvious ones like Durant and Lebron, which won't happen)
Then there's a secondary list of guys who i'd love to get if they were packaged with other quality players. Guys like George, Cousins, Monroe, Drummond, Mike Conley, Tyreke...
I don't think any of these teams trade these guys for Rondo, unforfutantely I feel that he is overvalued in Boston and, because of his national reputation as a punk, undervalues everywhere else.
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The flip side to that type of sort of trade is keeping Rondo obviously.
If we keep Rondo long term as a GM I would surrender myself to the reality that Rondo:
A) Will never be a consistent 20 point+ a night scorer
B) He is actually suited to be a low key 2nd / 3rd fiddle who can orchestrate but perhaps not truly lead - he's a little too mercurial for that role and you can't change the stripes on a cat.
The key for this team moving forward if we keep Rondo is:
A) Surround him with 2-3 three elite, young scorers
B) let him orchestrate that talent offensively and when he goes off for 30 on a given night just take it as a bonus.
This team was absolutely deadly when you had KG, Pierce and Ray in their primes.
A big part of that was because Rondo had three consistent, legit 18-20 point+ a night weapons on the floor.
If Melo pans out as a "better more athletic Perkins" and Sully can turn into a 15 point+ a night guy at PF - you would just need to add two "very good" young scorers at off and at the three, for example an OJ mayo and a Rudy Gay.
I don't know who in that hypothetical group would be the "leader" alpha dog but hopefully one of them would emerge within the context of the team.
It might be Sully if he can figure out how to score 15-18 a night along with 10+ boards. He's inspirational in the paint when he's getting into it with people. He "could" be that guy the team rallies around down the road and he has the personality for it.
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If we are going to keep Rondo, which I certainly don't think is a bad move. His jump shot has improved drastically this season and if that keeps up he could be unstoppable.
We have to get finishers around the basket. When KG got here he would finish those inside passes, now he turns them into fade away jumpers. And we have to get at least two players on the floor with Rondo who can stretch the D. The team we have now doesn't really fit with what Rondo does best.
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I'm starting to be amenable to the idea of a Rondo trade. If only so he can stop being a Boston scapegoat. Honestly, I'm getting to the point where I'd love to see him get a fresh start in a system with a new fanbase... a place like Dallas could be good for him.
The issue with trading Rondo is that the package the C's get back is going to be a package lesser players and/or draft picks. Either way, a Rondo trade would seemingly kickstart a legit rebuilding phase.
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I see both sides of the debate. But trading Eastern Conference All-Star Starting Point-Guard? I don't know. ???
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If we are going to keep Rondo, which I certainly don't think is a bad move. His jump shot has improved drastically this season and if that keeps up he could be unstoppable.
We have to get finishers around the basket. When KG got here he would finish those inside passes, now he turns them into fade away jumpers. And we have to get at least two players on the floor with Rondo who can stretch the D. The team we have now doesn't really fit with what Rondo does best.
What team would fit him better? It felt like some of the off season moves we made.this past year had a lot to do with fitting to Rondos strength and it hasn't really done much
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The "lack of effort" tag that Rondo has been given boggles my mind. He's not perfect, but, man, does that little dude play hard.
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From what I understand, Rondo doesn't have the kind of value around this league as we hope. There must be a perception of him as an inconsistent, poor shooting player who simply gets a lot of assists due to the system.
Rumors are rumors, but there's been a lot of smoke to suggest this.
We tried hard to move him in a Chris Paul trade, but we couldn't make it work.
Rumors suggest we tried trading him for Pau Gasol and got turned down.
Rumors suggest we tried trading him for Westbrook and got turned down.
Rumors suggest we tried trading him for Steph Curry last year and got turned down by Golden State.
Not to mention a perception of him as a bit of a hot head... I just have a hard time believing a team like the Sonics would decide to build around him.
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From what I understand, Rondo doesn't have the kind of value around this league as we hope. There must be a perception of him as an inconsistent, poor shooting player who simply gets a lot of assists due to the system.
Rumors are rumors, but there's been a lot of smoke to suggest this.
We tried hard to move him in a Chris Paul trade, but we couldn't make it work.
Rumors suggest we tried trading him for Pau Gasol and got turned down.
Rumors suggest we tried trading him for Westbrook and got turned down.
Rumors suggest we tried trading him for Steph Curry last year and got turned down by Golden State.
Not to mention a perception of him as a bit of a hot head... I just have a hard time believing a team like the Sonics would decide to build around him.
Each one of the rumors that you reference has nothing but very flimsy evidence and reporting behind it.
Anyone can start a rumor, and people love to start them about Rondo, but that doesn't mean that there's one shred of truth to any of them.
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I don't know about trading Rondo even though I'm not one of his biggest fans. I just wished the guy would adjust his play a bit, that's all. While Rondo's been a Celtics, they've been their most efficiently offensively in the the two years Rondo Ball wasn't as prevalent. In 2008, he only averaged 30 minutes a game and he [dang] didn't spend that time pounding the ball like he does now. The following year his minutes increased to 33 and Rondo Ball still hadn't fully developed. More than that, having ball movement, passing the ball up the court, creating with multiple ball handlers and playmakers is just more fun to watch for me.
Even though Rondo's shooting has improved dramatically, teams still don't respect it. As such, his defender closes down driving lanes repeatedly. There's no room in the middle of the court because Rondo's man doesn't respect his jumpshot. That can really hamper an offense.
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From what I understand, Rondo doesn't have the kind of value around this league as we hope. There must be a perception of him as an inconsistent, poor shooting player who simply gets a lot of assists due to the system.
Rumors are rumors, but there's been a lot of smoke to suggest this.
We tried hard to move him in a Chris Paul trade, but we couldn't make it work.
Rumors suggest we tried trading him for Pau Gasol and got turned down.
Rumors suggest we tried trading him for Westbrook and got turned down.
Rumors suggest we tried trading him for Steph Curry last year and got turned down by Golden State.
Not to mention a perception of him as a bit of a hot head... I just have a hard time believing a team like the Sonics would decide to build around him.
Each one of the rumors that you reference has nothing but very flimsy evidence and reporting behind it.
Anyone can start a rumor, and people love to start them about Rondo, but that doesn't mean that there's one shred of truth to any of them.
True. They were all rumors. Going back further there were rumors that Sacramento turned down trading Tyreke Evans for Rondo. And Rondo's star is glowing brighter now thanks to a sensational playoff performance and making the all star team multiple times.
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If we are going to keep Rondo, which I certainly don't think is a bad move. His jump shot has improved drastically this season and if that keeps up he could be unstoppable.
We have to get finishers around the basket. When KG got here he would finish those inside passes, now he turns them into fade away jumpers. And we have to get at least two players on the floor with Rondo who can stretch the D. The team we have now doesn't really fit with what Rondo does best.
What team would fit him better? It felt like some of the off season moves we made.this past year had a lot to do with fitting to Rondos strength and it hasn't really done much
Off the top of my head: Indiana, LAC, Houston, Philly. Each of those teams has a mix of guys who can post up, finish at the rim, and hit jumpers.
The pieces that we added this offseason were a step towards a more a Rondo centric offense, but we still rely way too heavily on jumpshots.
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I think it's a simple formula on hwo to make it work with Rondo if we want to move forward with him after KG and Pierce.
1. We need to muscle in the paint to clear the boards and start the break. Sully is a good start at PF. If Melo pans out his lateral speed and shot blocking could be a very good compliment to Sully's muscle and hopefully one of them can be an 18-20 point scorer > Sully?
2. Get a middle of the road back up point guard who is a "decent" play maker and defender but whose strongest skill is being an at least "solid" jump shooter from the top of the key area and three land.
3. Put speed, athleticism and scoring at the 2/3 spots, with hopefully one of those guys being a true stud scorer, like a young Pierce.
Basically, you build a younger version of what we were the first 1-2 years KG arrived.
That team dominated and Rondo picked teams apart and was not relied on to be a 20 point + a night scorer - that is not who he is - it's a nice benny when he goes off bit he shouldn't be counted on for it.
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Another, alternate, swing for the fences move would be to put yourself in the Dwight Howard Sweepstakes this summer if at all possible.
Put yourself in the position to get him, by doing the following. Blow it up and trade for Josh Smith and Rudy Gay.
Pierce to the grizzlies for Rudy Gay Rondo wants him here. A front line of Gasol, Zach Randolph and Pierce would be an absolute load in the playoffs. Grizz want a salary dump. Trading for Pierce would increase their chances of a ring this year and get them the salary dump at the same time.
Trade Bradley, Courtney Lee and two first round picks to Atlanta for Josh Smith.
KG / Collins / melo
Josh Smith / Sully / Wilcox
Rudy Gay / Jeff Green
Bass - lateral trade for half decent off guard
Rondo / Barbosa
Hope that Rondo, Rudy Gay and Josh Smith interest Howard. Go over the cap to sign Howard if you have to
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I think it's a simple formula on hwo to make it work with Rondo if we want to move forward with him after KG and Pierce.
1. We need to muscle in the paint to clear the boards and start the break. Sully is a good start at PF. If Melo pans out his lateral speed and shot blocking could be a very good compliment to Sully's muscle and hopefully one of them can be an 18-20 point scorer > Sully?
2. Get a middle of the road back up point guard who is a "decent" play maker and defender but whose strongest skill is being an at least "solid" jump shooter from the top of the key area and three land.
3. Put speed, athleticism and scoring at the 2/3 spots, with hopefully one of those guys being a true stud scorer, like a young Pierce.
Basically, you build a younger version of what we were the first 1-2 years KG arrived.
That team dominated and Rondo picked teams apart and was not relied on to be a 20 point + a night scorer - that is not who he is - it's a nice benny when he goes off bit he shouldn't be counted on for it.
Step 1: We got Sully, we got Melo, we tried to get Darko and we'll probably take a swing at a big at the deadline. I'd check this one off.
Step 2: That almost perfectly describes the Jet. He's a decent backup PG who has limited play making ability with a very good shot. I know the shot has been off but it's probably not going to stay off forever. The defense could use some work but Jet has never been famous for that and we have 2 other 2-guards that excel there.
Step 3: Bradley, Lee and Green...check!
I think Danny did exactly what you said he should do except he did it 5-7 months ago. I'm not sure this team gets much better than it is right now from a talent perspective. I think we should take a swing at landing Gortat or Varejao (for playoffs I would hope). There aren't many players I blow up for.
The thing about Rondo is that he's a competitor who can't carry a team every night by scoring. That is probably the most frustrating thing to him. Carmello and Lebron and Chris Paul and Kobe can all just drag their teams to victory on any given night by draining baskets. Rondo's skill set isn't scoring and while there are nights he can put up 20+ it's not really his game. He has to play in the system and when his team isn't making shots it's frustrating. He can't just be the franchise band-aid like a lot of scoring guards can but he can be the franchise keystone. Put Rondo on a team with a top 10 post presence and 4-5 shooting threats and he's a happy guy. I'm of the opinion we have the shooting threats. Need a post master general!
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The real question going forward is Rondo the type of player that will attract that top line scorer.
Rondo will need that guy who can score.
If the Celtics can not add that in the future, then it would probably make sense to move Rondo in the future.
Right now, unless there are some socks being blown off Ainge's feet, Rondo should not be traded.
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I saw last games. I see Rondo keeping ball too much, and the offensive plays are always slow. There is no dynamism. I thing that Cs play better offensivly without Rondo.
Second thing: We need better players to score and a big guy under the rim
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Nostar - good reply.
1. True, but Melo isn't given the chance "yet". Sully's coming along well but is maybe 1-2 years away, hopefully.
* I think these two kids have a shot at being our 4-5 spots long term but 1-2 years away.
2. Agreed terry is serviceable at the back up point. But isn't Doc playing him mostly at the two with Lee at the point? I'd like to see Terry at the point and in a lot more pick and roll situations.
3. Agree that Bradley, Lee and Green have speed and athleticism at the wings but while I see Bradley as an elite defender I do not see Green or Lee as elite scorers.
I see Lee as an ideal back up two guard and at $4-5 million he's a good deal to me.
I don't know if Green will ever be an elite scorer.
My point on item #3 was to try and find young Ray Allen / Paul Pierce level scoring talents at the 2/3 spots.
I don't know who those two guys are...but maybe a Rudy Gay / OJ Mayo type combo is somewhat close as far as more legit offensive weapons at the 2-3 spots than Green and Lee.
I think Green was signed and projected to be that guy at the 3 but Lee was signed and projected as a long term back up two.
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wdleehi, exactly the point.
We need at least one legit stud scorer and another good one at the 2/3 spots and we'll see music again.
Rondo can never be counted on as that 20 point+ scorer every night. And that is OK - as long as we find that guy(s) for him.
Also agreed if we can't you can also build with a front court dominant team and a "decent" point guard.
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Trading Rondo would be pretty moronic unless we are bringing back a top level player - ie: Cousins. If he is undervalued around the league, but [deservingly] starting the all-star game, you adjust your team to what Rondo can do, not trade him for decent players.
On the other hand, if we are looking at the future, a trade of Pierce for Gay is probably the smartest thing we could do. I can't imagine Memphis wouldn't be all over this given Pierce's [kind-of] expiring contract and it gives them the ability to compete for a championship this year. Obviously it stinks to trade the captain, but you either trade him for our next go-to guy or you let him retire and get absolutely nothing.
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I've slowly come around to this thinking. I use to think Rondo could handle years Pierce went through, but I'm not sure anymore. If Ainge decided to blow it up, I would be okay trading Rondo for future pieces.
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The real question going forward is Rondo the type of player that will attract that top line scorer.
Rondo will need that guy who can score.
If the Celtics can not add that in the future, then it would probably make sense to move Rondo in the future.
Right now, unless there are some socks being blown off Ainge's feet, Rondo should not be traded.
I think he can attract talent - I remember OJ Mayo making a quote a few years ago about wanting to play with Rondo because he can get scorers the ball in their spots. I also think he's getting more recruiting talent, he was one of the primary recruiters for Courtney Lee this offseason.
To me, I think it really will depend on what type of cap/roster flexibility we'll have moving forward. If we're capped out and/or unwilling to make trades, it doesn't how much people want to play with him.
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I would like to some how turn Rondo into a Milsap and T Evens & D Cousins return.
Rondo < Evens & Cousins/Milsap
Something like this
Rondo/Bass/Bradley and Melo out w/ 1st and Second
Utah gets Melo/Bradley and Salmons and 1st & 2nd from us
Sacramento gets Rondo/Bass and out Salmons/ Evens/Cousins and a first
Evens /Barbosa
Lee / Terry
Green / Pierce
Milsap / Sully / Wilcox
Cousins / KG / Collins
Run the kids 35 minutes each and let Terry/Pierce and KG get 22 minutes each off the bench.
Milsap < Bradley/Melo and a first
D Cousins/ Evens < Rondo/Bass
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I used to like to watch Rondo , now kinda dread seeing him on the court. The starters seem to work better with somebody else putting the offense into gear sooner. Watching ROndo stand and dribble the ball away , instead of attacking is infurrating to watch . I turn the channel .
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The flip side to that type of sort of trade is keeping Rondo obviously.
If we keep Rondo long term as a GM I would surrender myself to the reality that Rondo:
A) Will never be a consistent 20 point+ a night scorer
B) He is actually suited to be a low key 2nd / 3rd fiddle who can orchestrate but perhaps not truly lead - he's a little too mercurial for that role and you can't change the stripes on a cat.
The key for this team moving forward if we keep Rondo is:
A) Surround him with 2-3 three elite, young scorers
B) let him orchestrate that talent offensively and when he goes off for 30 on a given night just take it as a bonus.
This team was absolutely deadly when you had KG, Pierce and Ray in their primes.
A big part of that was because Rondo had three consistent, legit 18-20 point+ a night weapons on the floor.
If Melo pans out as a "better more athletic Perkins" and Sully can turn into a 15 point+ a night guy at PF - you would just need to add two "very good" young scorers at off and at the three, for example an OJ mayo and a Rudy Gay.
I don't know who in that hypothetical group would be the "leader" alpha dog but hopefully one of them would emerge within the context of the team.
It might be Sully if he can figure out how to score 15-18 a night along with 10+ boards. He's inspirational in the paint when he's getting into it with people. He "could" be that guy the team rallies around down the road and he has the personality for it.
I'm on board with this. I'm in favor of making Sully a much bigger part of the offense. All our "team of the future" needs is that star wing who can light up the scoreboard and play a little D. Get Sully to 15 a night and we get 10-15 from the C a night and look out. Rondo is never going to be a big scorer but he doesn't need to be if you get some light it up scorers on this team with Melo/Oden like player anchoring the defense and Sully boarding and beasting..
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Yeah JHTruth, that's pretty much it to me.
1. Melo and Sully have very complimentary skill sets. If Melo "gets there" that duo could be very dynamic from a rebounding and defending standpoint.
2. Rondo is a dominant "play maker".
3. Let Sully and Melo beast in the paint
4. Let Rondo orchestrate from the point
5. Get two 18-20+ point per night scorers at the 2/3 spots.
Rudy Gay could be one of those guys if there was a way to land him.
Maybe Jeff Green can turn into that guy.
A free agent max guy might get you the other guy. Who is coming up at the 2 & 3 over the next 1-3 seasons in free agency?
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1. Melo and Sully have very complimentary skill sets. If Melo "gets there" that duo could be very dynamic from a rebounding and defending standpoint.
Melo is a pathetic rebounder. Despite what some of these hype the guy posts alude to, he is 45th in rebounding in the DL. 6.9 RPG , Harangody averages 13.9 RPG go figure. JaJuan Johnson is averaging 7.2 RPG. Get the picture? Melo is nothing to write home about on the boards.
http://www.nba.com/dleague/statistics/player/Rebounds.jsp?league=20&season=22012&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams
Good news is he young and has room to improve. His hands are not great and should get better. He also is weak and should improve as his strength improves with NBA weight training. So I think he could get this number up with some work.
Defensively, he is going to be a beast though.
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To Celtics4ever:
Well, yes. That's exactly what I said in my post.
1. If Melo "gets there" his skill set compliments Sully's very well.
2. Sully is a beast on the boards and melo, with his length, lateral quickness and undeniable ability to block and affect.alter shots around the rim, compliments Sully bully act and rebounding very well.
3. I didn't say "melo was a great rebounder" because he isn't.
My point was that Sully has already proven to be a surprisingly good defender and a beast on the boards. You combine that with a defensive beast at center and you've got something going in the paint...
So if Melo can "get there", the next question is how do we then get our next Paul Pierce, a guy who can light it up for 20+ a night for the next ten years?
Also, I agree that Melo can improve. I recall that Perkins couldn't stay on a basketball court for more than 10 minutes a game for his first three years because of foul trouble. Couldn't put a pea in the ocean, etc...
I think Melo has the potential to be a good scorer at this level, an Ok rebounder and a very good defender and shot blocker. His body is already way ahead of Perkins as a rookie.
I think it depends on Melo's work ethic and learning curve.
But I know I certainly wouldn't want to trade him yet.