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Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: OsirusCeltics on January 13, 2013, 01:13:30 AM

Title: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: OsirusCeltics on January 13, 2013, 01:13:30 AM
This whole Laker debacle is proof of one thing: Kobe is overrated

Not saying he's a horrible player, one of the best that ever played. But overrated that he should not be one of the top 15 players of all time

His leadership has really coime into question. This season it seems he can't even lead his team to the bathroom. With Pau and Dwight not playing, he looks so lost in not rallying the troops. Doesn't know how to direct and will his team to victory. Not an elite defender, not an elite passer, not an elite rebounder. So whats left? Only his scoring

No one can take away Kobe's scoring ability. Maybe top 5 all time in that aspect. But I think people are so blindsighted by his highlights and scoring prowess, that they excuse the obvious holes in his game. When his team is in dire need of direction, what does Kobe do? Keep shooting and trying to make ultra-tough shots, like its 1 against 5. IMO how this season plays out would define Kobe's legacy
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: ScottHow on January 13, 2013, 01:21:55 AM
In my opinion Kobe never was a leader.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Smutzy#9 on January 13, 2013, 02:00:06 AM
This whole Laker debacle is proof of one thing: Kobe is overrated

Not saying he's a horrible player, one of the best that ever played. But overrated that he should not be one of the top 15 players of all time

His leadership has really coime into question. This season it seems he can't even lead his team to the bathroom. With Pau and Dwight not playing, he looks so lost in not rallying the troops. Doesn't know how to direct and will his team to victory. Not an elite defender, not an elite passer, not an elite rebounder. So whats left? Only his scoring

No one can take away Kobe's scoring ability. Maybe top 5 all time in that aspect. But I think people are so blindsighted by his highlights and scoring prowess, that they excuse the obvious holes in his game. When his team is in dire need of direction, what does Kobe do? Keep shooting and trying to make ultra-tough shots, like its 1 against 5. IMO how this season plays out would define Kobe's legacy

there is no question about it. He IS top 5 all time scoring....


When you look at some of the people they have playing atm id be doing the same thing. As much as i dislike the lakers franchise ( i have to being a celtic fan) in this season especially i think iv come to appreciate kobe as a player alot more then previous years. He wont be around much longer. Appreciate whats there. Doesnt come around often

Plus there is other forms of leadership. I can guarantee you that Kobe is the hardest worker on that team right now.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: celtsfan619 on January 13, 2013, 02:19:48 AM
I'm sorry but I'd have to disagree. The one who is overrated on that team is without a doubt Dwight. He's ridiculously overrated. All dwight does is take a running hook which never goes in with the occasional face up bank shot from a terrible angle from about 12-15 feet out. Not to mention he goes up soft every time he attacks the basket then doesn't make his free throws, that is why i don't buy the shaq comparison because shaq even when they hack the crap out of him he went up and dunked it. You can't blame Kobe for Dwight's lack of focus and desire or pau's inability to grow a pair. Don't get me wrong i hate the lakers as much as any die hard Celts fan does, however I RESPECT Kobe and his game because there is no denying he is more talented than any player playing right now
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: indeedproceed on January 13, 2013, 02:47:07 AM
That team is turrible without 2 of the 3 of Dwight, Pau, or Nash. Kobe hasn't had a string of those 3 all season. Of all the poop smeared on all the names here, Kobe's wil be the cleanest.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Mazingerz on January 13, 2013, 04:41:17 AM
This season screams that Kobe is a top notch ballhog. hard to deal with and is a coach and chemistry killer.


i don't know if any player wants to play with him. Very difficult to deal with and is a diva.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: alajet on January 13, 2013, 04:58:49 AM
I'm sorry but I'd have to disagree. The one who is overrated on that team is without a doubt Dwight. He's ridiculously overrated. All dwight does is take a running hook which never goes in with the occasional face up bank shot from a terrible angle from about 12-15 feet out. Not to mention he goes up soft every time he attacks the basket then doesn't make his free throws, that is why i don't buy the shaq comparison because shaq even when they hack the crap out of him he went up and dunked it. You can't blame Kobe for Dwight's lack of focus and desire or pau's inability to grow a pair. Don't get me wrong i hate the lakers as much as any die hard Celts fan does, however I RESPECT Kobe and his game because there is no denying he is more talented than any player playing right now

Agreed. Gasol seemed to be unmotivated even when on the court, and Howard is highly overrated.
That only leaves Nash as Kobe's supporting cast, who has missed most of the games so far.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Yogi on January 13, 2013, 06:14:11 AM
This thread is a little unbelievable.  The only thing this season has solidified is that Kobe Bryant is one of the top 5 greatest players of all time.  I hate admitting that, but this season takes the cake for me. 

No guard has averaged 15ppg in his 17th season in the history of the NBA.  Kobe is averaging 30ppg.  47/35/84 are his percentages.  He's playing 40 min a game at his age and averaging 5 rebounds and 5 assists.  He's pretty awful at defending the young athletic guys, but he's also getting 1.5 steals a game. 

The Lakers are a poorly built team.  They have no legit 3 point threat (around 40%) outside of Steve Nash.  They have no legit athleticism outside of Howard.  They are old and thus constantly injured.  Celtics fans should be able to relate to that.  They have players in their bench that wouldn't be drafted in the second round of the d-league.  They had a couple of coaches that weren't good enough for Lebron and Carmelo, and they certainly are not able to handle Kobe and Howard. 

Kobe, by the way, despite his knees and the fact that he played and won a gold medal in the off season hasn't missed a game. 
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Who on January 13, 2013, 06:34:19 AM
I thought Jeff Van Gundy described Kobe's defense nowadays very well in a recent broadcast.

JVG said that Kobe is still a very effective man-to-man defender when asked to guard a main scoring threat on the opposing team but that Kobe has been lazy on team defense when guarding lesser players.

That Kobe is taking too many risks playing passing lanes trying to create turnovers. Getting himself out of position to recover back to his back to his man. That Kobe is leaving spot up shooters open too often. That his transition defense has been awful and neglectful. A lack of effort (transition defense). A lack of focus on team defense in the halfcourt.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: scaryjerry on January 13, 2013, 07:19:59 AM
yeah and when Michael Jordan was on the wizards it was proof he was overrated ::)
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Galeto on January 13, 2013, 07:25:01 AM
Kobe's been playing indifferent defense for a long while.  The most annoying thing had been seeing the shooters he left wide open clank shot after shot from three.  They're finally making them this year for whatever reason.  I wished it could've happened sooner but it's just nice that it's happening.

I've always thought Kobe's main strength was defending point guards.  It's not just Rondo, he really does an excellent guard against any point he's put upon.  He's not so good anymore against the other positions.  I thought last year he was a very weak individual defender and of course he made first team all-nba defense which is Jeterian as can get. 

Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: henr1k on January 13, 2013, 07:43:37 AM
Offensively he is having a GOAT season considering his age. But basketball is a two-way game, and his defense has been turrible. (Charles Barkley voice)

This article pretty much sums it up. http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/11/3864814/kobe-bryant-is-ruining-kobe-bryants-historic-season

Luckily for him, casual fans and even some of the so called experts are only looking at his stats and give him a pass for his lack of effort on defense.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: moiso on January 13, 2013, 08:31:19 AM
This thread is a little unbelievable.  The only thing this season has solidified is that Kobe Bryant is one of the top 5 greatest players of all time.  I hate admitting that, but this season takes the cake for me. 

No guard has averaged 15ppg in his 17th season in the history of the NBA.  Kobe is averaging 30ppg.  47/35/84 are his percentages.  He's playing 40 min a game at his age and averaging 5 rebounds and 5 assists.  He's pretty awful at defending the young athletic guys, but he's also getting 1.5 steals a game. 

The Lakers are a poorly built team.  They have no legit 3 point threat (around 40%) outside of Steve Nash.  They have no legit athleticism outside of Howard.  They are old and thus constantly injured.  Celtics fans should be able to relate to that.  They have players in their bench that wouldn't be drafted in the second round of the d-league.  They had a couple of coaches that weren't good enough for Lebron and Carmelo, and they certainly are not able to handle Kobe and Howard. 

Kobe, by the way, despite his knees and the fact that he played and won a gold medal in the off season hasn't missed a game.
His longevity is amazing but in my opinion there are more than 4 other players who have been better than Kobe.  He's not top 5 on my list.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 13, 2013, 08:32:48 AM
Spoiled Brat is what I have taken away.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 13, 2013, 08:50:09 AM
As we always knew , unwilling to share the ball. Very poor sport , poor team player, poor teammate, won't listen to anybody but Jackson who caters to his whines. Ego driven , Kobe first , team last player.  Plays defense only if he can afford too, uses all energy on scoring.

Scoring machine, and one of the worse ball-hog team players of all time .

Last star player I would EVER want on the Celtics at this point in his career.

HE can't SHARE the court with other SUPERSTARS well.  Pau and Bynum are stars , but not SUPER STARS....

Its obvious SHAQ and now Howard (superstars) don't like Kobes dominating the ball 99% of the time.

A totally none team player...

He couldn't have played along side the old lakers ....they played team ball...Kobe plays HOG BALL.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: rondohondo on January 13, 2013, 08:55:29 AM
This thread is a little unbelievable.  The only thing this season has solidified is that Kobe Bryant is one of the top 5 greatest players of all time.  I hate admitting that, but this season takes the cake for me. 

No guard has averaged 15ppg in his 17th season in the history of the NBA.  Kobe is averaging 30ppg.  47/35/84 are his percentages.  He's playing 40 min a game at his age and averaging 5 rebounds and 5 assists.  He's pretty awful at defending the young athletic guys, but he's also getting 1.5 steals a game. 

The Lakers are a poorly built team.  They have no legit 3 point threat (around 40%) outside of Steve Nash.  They have no legit athleticism outside of Howard.  They are old and thus constantly injured.  Celtics fans should be able to relate to that.  They have players in their bench that wouldn't be drafted in the second round of the d-league.  They had a couple of coaches that weren't good enough for Lebron and Carmelo, and they certainly are not able to handle Kobe and Howard. 

Kobe, by the way, despite his knees and the fact that he played and won a gold medal in the off season hasn't missed a game.
His longevity is amazing but in my opinion there are more than 4 other players who have been better than Kobe.  He's not top 5 on my list.

off the top of my head

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Olajuwon
Shaq
Duncan
Russell
Abdul-Jabar
Chamberlain
Robertson
Lebron

*Case can also be made for Stockton and Malone

I would rank Kobe somewhere between 11-15

Definitely not top 5 all-time , Not even top 10
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: alajet on January 13, 2013, 09:04:32 AM
Lebron James is definitely not a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant. To his credit, he's superior in terms of body strength, though.
All the others listed are probably better than him. To me, Kobe is one of the few active players that could even be mentioned in the same sentence with those, which is a feat.

I don't really get what OP wants to tell about, but if it's just about pouring in some Lakers misery, so be it :)
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Clench123 on January 13, 2013, 09:44:33 AM
Lebron is better than Kobe. 
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: mctyson on January 13, 2013, 09:45:32 AM
Just remember:  Jordan, arguably the best pro player ever, finished his career "leading" some pretty terrible Washington teams.

Even the greats eventually lose it.  We, as Celtics fans, have to be aware of that.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Birdman on January 13, 2013, 09:51:59 AM
I take Kobe now
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: RebusRankin on January 13, 2013, 10:14:57 AM
Top 5, Kobe? So who do you leave off out of Russell, Jordan, Bird, Magic and Kareem?
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: soap07 on January 13, 2013, 11:23:06 AM
Can someone tell me how Kobe has acted like a spoiled brat this season? He is having one of the best seasons of his career - while actually having a usage rate that is lower than his two previous seasons. He's also rebounding and passing at a high rate for him. He's in his 17th season in the league and still playing like a top 5 player, including a career high FG%.

I would say, at this point, Kobe will end up being the best Laker certainly.

Quote
Just remember:  Jordan, arguably the best pro player ever, finished his career "leading" some pretty terrible Washington teams.

Even the greats eventually lose it.  We, as Celtics fans, have to be aware of that.

And at this point, Kobe has shown that he hasn't lost anything - and Kobe is in his 17th season.

Quote
Lebron James is definitely not a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant. To his credit, he's superior in terms of body strength, though.

Annnnnd this is where I get off the boat. LeBron is definitely better than Kobe and has been for a number of years.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Fafnir on January 13, 2013, 11:29:38 AM
I think calling out your team's defense and then putting forward your worst defensive season (which is saying something) is pretty bratty.

Kobe's been great on offense, but he's been brutal on the other end which is where the Lakers are really losing games.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Fafnir on January 13, 2013, 11:31:49 AM
I thought Jeff Van Gundy described Kobe's defense nowadays very well in a recent broadcast.

JVG said that Kobe is still a very effective man-to-man defender when asked to guard a main scoring threat on the opposing team but that Kobe has been lazy on team defense when guarding lesser players.

That Kobe is taking too many risks playing passing lanes trying to create turnovers. Getting himself out of position to recover back to his back to his man. That Kobe is leaving spot up shooters open too often. That his transition defense has been awful and neglectful. A lack of effort (transition defense). A lack of focus on team defense in the halfcourt.
Yeah unless he's guarding a "name" he just doesn't put in any effort. He's been doing what JVG says for a few years now, but this season its gotten even worse.

Off the ball movement just destroys him consistently. Then once he loses his man he just zones up and watches till the play is over.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: rondohondo on January 13, 2013, 11:31:56 AM
Kobe's defense

(http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2001381/kbb2_5_medium.JPG)

Maybe he doesn't play that style of defense only against Rondo :P
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: moiso on January 13, 2013, 11:50:46 AM
Can someone tell me how Kobe has acted like a spoiled brat this season? He is having one of the best seasons of his career - while actually having a usage rate that is lower than his two previous seasons. He's also rebounding and passing at a high rate for him. He's in his 17th season in the league and still playing like a top 5 player, including a career high FG%.

I would say, at this point, Kobe will end up being the best Laker certainly.

Quote
Just remember:  Jordan, arguably the best pro player ever, finished his career "leading" some pretty terrible Washington teams.

Even the greats eventually lose it.  We, as Celtics fans, have to be aware of that.

And at this point, Kobe has shown that he hasn't lost anything - and Kobe is in his 17th season.

Quote
Lebron James is definitely not a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant. To his credit, he's superior in terms of body strength, though.

Annnnnd this is where I get off the boat. LeBron is definitely better than Kobe and has been for a number of years.
not better than west or magic.  And probably Baylor.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Chelm on January 13, 2013, 12:23:09 PM
No guard has averaged 15ppg in his 17th season in the history of the NBA.  Kobe is averaging 30ppg.  47/35/84 are his percentages.  He's playing 40 min a game at his age and averaging 5 rebounds and 5 assists.  He's pretty awful at defending the young athletic guys, but he's also getting 1.5 steals a game.
I did not know this.  Amazing.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: BballTim on January 13, 2013, 01:23:42 PM
No guard has averaged 15ppg in his 17th season in the history of the NBA.  Kobe is averaging 30ppg.  47/35/84 are his percentages.  He's playing 40 min a game at his age and averaging 5 rebounds and 5 assists.  He's pretty awful at defending the young athletic guys, but he's also getting 1.5 steals a game.
I did not know this.  Amazing.

  While it's true that nobody Kobe's age has averaged 30 a game before, guards his age or older have averaged more than 15ppg 35 times.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: OsirusCeltics on January 13, 2013, 01:35:12 PM
Lebron James is definitely not a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant. To his credit, he's superior in terms of body strength, though.
All the others listed are probably better than him. To me, Kobe is one of the few active players that could even be mentioned in the same sentence with those, which is a feat.

I don't really get what OP wants to tell about, but if it's just about pouring in some Lakers misery, so be it :)

Well to say that in a season with a such a star-studded lineup, Kobe fails to lead or pick up the slack when Dwight and Gasol are injured.   
Kobe's deficiencies come to light, to show in his career, he never had leadership qualities. And if you lack that, theres no way you can be in the top 15 all time list

He's not an elite defender, rebounder, or passer. The only elite skills is his scoring. If people are giving him passes for his scoring, then we should add George Gervin, Alex English, David Thompson, and Bob Mcadoo in the top 15 all time list
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Yogi on January 13, 2013, 03:08:50 PM
I don't know how I wind up defending Kobe...

I would put Kobe's career against Magic and Bird.  He has 5 rings, and he will probably finish being either the first or second most prolific scorer in the history of the game. 
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: BballTim on January 13, 2013, 03:44:18 PM
I don't know how I wind up defending Kobe...

I would put Kobe's career against Magic and Bird.  He has 5 rings, and he will probably finish being either the first or second most prolific scorer in the history of the game.

  You might put his career against Magic and Bird considering their careers were sidetracked by injuries while they were still in their primes. He certainly doesn't measure up to them as a player.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: LooseCannon on January 13, 2013, 04:19:08 PM
He's not top 5 on my list.

At this moment, he's not even in the Top 50 in the All-Time ELO rankings (a community-based ranking of players) at basketball-reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi).

EDIT: And not even Top 10 among active players.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: aporel#18 on January 13, 2013, 04:32:17 PM
Well, this season says Kobe is the same ballhog, me first and "the blame is on anyone else" spoiled brat.

He's always been that way, so no surprise. When the Lakers signed Nash I was afraid Kobe would use his brain and allow Nash to be the playmaker, feeding the big men and thus creating a lot of space for Kobe to make easy shots. But he refuses to share the ball, so Nash is useless.

He's had Shaq and Pau to bring the rings, without a quality big man he's useless, as we did learn when the Lakers team before signing Pau.

He might be a great scorer, but so is Carmelo Anthony. He's been hyped and favored by the League and the refs (like Lebron, he never fouls, never travels) because he embraced the Jordan disgusting character (I'm business, clutch and incredible) as a little NBA dictator. I hate the Lakers, but you can see some qualities in other faker players. In Kobe's case, I can't see any... well, at least he's not Wade, so that counts as a positive.

Lakers will be better than this, they'll figure it out eventually, but I love to see them struggling while it lasts.

Go Celtics
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: soap07 on January 13, 2013, 06:35:20 PM
I don't know how I wind up defending Kobe...

I would put Kobe's career against Magic and Bird.  He has 5 rings, and he will probably finish being either the first or second most prolific scorer in the history of the game.

  You might put his career against Magic and Bird considering their careers were sidetracked by injuries while they were still in their primes. He certainly doesn't measure up to them as a player.

While this is true, I think there's something to be said for Kobe's durability and his ability to maintain a high level of play through all these years.

Quote
He's always been that way, so no surprise. When the Lakers signed Nash I was afraid Kobe would use his brain and allow Nash to be the playmaker, feeding the big men and thus creating a lot of space for Kobe to make easy shots. But he refuses to share the ball, so Nash is useless.

You seem to imply that the Lakers problem this year is on the offensive end. Kobe is having one of the best seasons of his life (offensively) - and the Lakers have one of the best offenses in the league, while missing key players for long stretches. So...whatever negative adjectives you throw Kobe's way - on the offensive end at least, whatever he's doing is working just fine.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: soap07 on January 13, 2013, 06:38:19 PM
Quote
Well to say that in a season with a such a star-studded lineup, Kobe fails to lead or pick up the slack when Dwight and Gasol are injured.   
Kobe's deficiencies come to light, to show in his career, he never had leadership qualities. And if you lack that, theres no way you can be in the top 15 all time list

He's not an elite defender, rebounder, or passer. The only elite skills is his scoring. If people are giving him passes for his scoring, then we should add George Gervin, Alex English, David Thompson, and Bob Mcadoo in the top 15 all time list

Kobe is the only one who has picked up the slack while Dwight/Gasol have been injured. I don't see how you can't see that.

How do you win 5 rings without any leadership qualities? 2 of those 5 rings, he was the best player on the team.

And please get your facts straight - Kobe is an elite rebounder for a 2 guard.

Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: OsirusCeltics on January 13, 2013, 06:49:38 PM
Quote
Well to say that in a season with a such a star-studded lineup, Kobe fails to lead or pick up the slack when Dwight and Gasol are injured.   
Kobe's deficiencies come to light, to show in his career, he never had leadership qualities. And if you lack that, theres no way you can be in the top 15 all time list

He's not an elite defender, rebounder, or passer. The only elite skills is his scoring. If people are giving him passes for his scoring, then we should add George Gervin, Alex English, David Thompson, and Bob Mcadoo in the top 15 all time list

Kobe is the only one who has picked up the slack while Dwight/Gasol have been injured. I don't see how you can't see that.

How do you win 5 rings without any leadership qualities? 2 of those 5 rings, he was the best player on the team.

And please get your facts straight - Kobe is an elite rebounder for a 2 guard.

2009 is the only year he barely edged out Gasol as being the best player. And Gasol was the reason they won in 2010

Why bring the numerous titles he won like that makes him a better player? No one brags that Robert Horry or Derek Fisher are such great players
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 13, 2013, 07:01:09 PM
This season screams that Kobe is a top notch ballhog. hard to deal with and is a coach and chemistry killer.


i don't know if any player wants to play with him. Very difficult to deal with and is a diva.

Tell that to the 5 championship rings he has.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: BASS_THUMPER on January 13, 2013, 07:14:49 PM
Quote
What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant

kobe can only win another ring with 4 other kobes on the floor with him
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: greg683x on January 13, 2013, 08:01:43 PM
No guard has averaged 15ppg in his 17th season in the history of the NBA.  Kobe is averaging 30ppg.  47/35/84 are his percentages.  He's playing 40 min a game at his age and averaging 5 rebounds and 5 assists.  He's pretty awful at defending the young athletic guys, but he's also getting 1.5 steals a game.
I did not know this.  Amazing.

how many guards were as young as Kobe is in his 17th season?  People often forget Kobe had a 4 year head start on the other players in NBA history his stats are compared to.

Instead of saying Kobes in his 17th season, lets just look at his age.  At 34 hes averaging 30 points a game, when Jordan was 34 he was also averaging 30 points a game.

Still impressive, and Kobe is a great players, but im sick of these stats that are thrown out there that inflate the truth
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Who on January 14, 2013, 05:41:10 AM
No guard has averaged 15ppg in his 17th season in the history of the NBA.  Kobe is averaging 30ppg.  47/35/84 are his percentages.  He's playing 40 min a game at his age and averaging 5 rebounds and 5 assists.  He's pretty awful at defending the young athletic guys, but he's also getting 1.5 steals a game.
I did not know this.  Amazing.

how many guards were as young as Kobe is in his 17th season?  People often forget Kobe had a 4 year head start on the other players in NBA history his stats are compared to.

Instead of saying Kobes in his 17th season, lets just look at his age.  At 34 hes averaging 30 points a game, when Jordan was 34 he was also averaging 30 points a game.

Still impressive, and Kobe is a great players, but im sick of these stats that are thrown out there that inflate the truth

So I looked it up on basketball-reference.com -- looking for age instead of seasons played -- and apparently 5 players have scored more than 25ppg at 34+ years of age.

Two players did so twice, Karl Malone (34, 36 years old) and Alex English (34, 35). Everybody else on the list was 34 years of age. K.Malone was therefore the oldest player to do so at 36 years of age in 1999-2000. The other players were Michael Jordan (1998), Bernard King (1991) and Dominique Wilkins (1994).

If Kobe can maintain his current scoring rate (29.8ppg), he would be the most prolific scorer of the group. Michael Jordan is the current high scorer at 28.7ppg. Bernard King had 28.4. The rest are between 25.0ppg and 27.0ppg. So Kobe only has two peers in terms how prolific he has been and is currently ahead of both of them.

If Kobe can maintain his current true shooting percentage (58.5%), he would rank 2nd best sandwiched in between Karl Malone's two seasons (59.7% and 58.2%). Nobody else managed to get higher than 53.5%. So it is pretty special what Karl Malone did and what Kobe Bryant is doing now efficiency wise.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: BballTim on January 14, 2013, 06:36:21 AM
I don't know how I wind up defending Kobe...

I would put Kobe's career against Magic and Bird.  He has 5 rings, and he will probably finish being either the first or second most prolific scorer in the history of the game.

  You might put his career against Magic and Bird considering their careers were sidetracked by injuries while they were still in their primes. He certainly doesn't measure up to them as a player.

While this is true, I think there's something to be said for Kobe's durability and his ability to maintain a high level of play through all these years.

  Yes, but the thing to say is that he's been durable, not that he is as good of a player as they were.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: CelticsFan9 on January 14, 2013, 06:44:29 AM
Kobe's having a great season so far.  He's been scoring at a very efficient rate.

Bryant has even said that he might start chasing Kareem's scoring record than the sixth chip, so if that's what he's trying ti accomplish, then he's doing what he has to do to get it.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: bfrombleacher on January 14, 2013, 07:15:42 AM
Kobe's having a great season so far.  He's been scoring at a very efficient rate.

Bryant has even said that he might start chasing Kareem's scoring record than the sixth chip, so if that's what he's trying ti accomplish, then he's doing what he has to do to get it.

I think that's where people have a problem...maybe?

Rondo would sacrifice his assist totals for sure. Garnett and Pierce would both sacrifice individual glory in the same position.

Hell, as much as I hate using LeBron James as an example, he sacrificed to get a championship.

But I think the loyalty our guys and a few other guys in the league have makes their desire that much sweeter. It's like they're doing it for the franchise whereas the aforementioned 2 were doing things for personal glory.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Moranis on January 14, 2013, 08:14:16 AM
Kobe's having a great season so far.  He's been scoring at a very efficient rate.

Bryant has even said that he might start chasing Kareem's scoring record than the sixth chip, so if that's what he's trying ti accomplish, then he's doing what he has to do to get it.

I think that's where people have a problem...maybe?

Rondo would sacrifice his assist totals for sure. Garnett and Pierce would both sacrifice individual glory in the same position.

Hell, as much as I hate using LeBron James as an example, he sacrificed to get a championship.

But I think the loyalty our guys and a few other guys in the league have makes their desire that much sweeter. It's like they're doing it for the franchise whereas the aforementioned 2 were doing things for personal glory.
sacrifice what?  Without Kobe scoring that team would get destroyed.  I mean have you actually looked at the Lakers lineup.  I mean the Lakers starting lineup against the Thunder (2 games ago) was: Earl Clark, Metta World Peace, Robert Sacre, Kobe Bryant, and Steve Nash.  The bench consists of Antawn Jamison, Chris Duhon, Jodie Meeks, Darius Morris, and Devan Ebanks.  Who exactly is Kobe supposed to sacrifice for?  I mean seriously.  If Kobe wasn't scoring the Lakers would be far far worse than they actually are. 

Dwight came back for their last game, but they are still starting Earl Clark.  The reality is the Lakers have absolutely no bench, any injury cripples them, and they have had a lot of injuries, which isn't surprising given the players and their ages and injury issues.  Everyone has always said, that the Lakers just need to get to the playoffs healthy to be a threat.  It looks like they might not be able to do it.  They need depth and a lot of it.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 14, 2013, 08:22:28 AM
No guard has averaged 15ppg in his 17th season in the history of the NBA.  Kobe is averaging 30ppg.  47/35/84 are his percentages.  He's playing 40 min a game at his age and averaging 5 rebounds and 5 assists.  He's pretty awful at defending the young athletic guys, but he's also getting 1.5 steals a game.
I did not know this.  Amazing.

how many guards were as young as Kobe is in his 17th season?  People often forget Kobe had a 4 year head start on the other players in NBA history his stats are compared to.

Instead of saying Kobes in his 17th season, lets just look at his age.  At 34 hes averaging 30 points a game, when Jordan was 34 he was also averaging 30 points a game.

Still impressive, and Kobe is a great players, but im sick of these stats that are thrown out there that inflate the truth

I do agree that age plays a factor but you can't take away the 17 seasons part of the argument. When Jordan was 34 he was only in his 13th season.

Kobe is in his 17th season and even though he is 34 as well, those 4 extra years of 82 games, pre season, playoffs, olympics, whatever definitely have the same effect and could make Kobe's body seem even older.

None the less impressive however way you want to look at it, is basically what it come down to.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Roy H. on January 14, 2013, 08:24:40 AM
Great player, hard worker, killer instinct (although not necessarily clutch), dirtbag human being, terrible teammate
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: moiso on January 14, 2013, 08:47:49 AM
Kobe's having a great season so far.  He's been scoring at a very efficient rate.

Bryant has even said that he might start chasing Kareem's scoring record than the sixth chip, so if that's what he's trying ti accomplish, then he's doing what he has to do to get it.

I think that's where people have a problem...maybe?

Rondo would sacrifice his assist totals for sure. Garnett and Pierce would both sacrifice individual glory in the same position.

Hell, as much as I hate using LeBron James as an example, he sacrificed to get a championship.

But I think the loyalty our guys and a few other guys in the league have makes their desire that much sweeter. It's like they're doing it for the franchise whereas the aforementioned 2 were doing things for personal glory.
sacrifice what?  Without Kobe scoring that team would get destroyed.  I mean have you actually looked at the Lakers lineup.  I mean the Lakers starting lineup against the Thunder (2 games ago) was: Earl Clark, Metta World Peace, Robert Sacre, Kobe Bryant, and Steve Nash.  The bench consists of Antawn Jamison, Chris Duhon, Jodie Meeks, Darius Morris, and Devan Ebanks.  Who exactly is Kobe supposed to sacrifice for?  I mean seriously.  If Kobe wasn't scoring the Lakers would be far far worse than they actually are. 

Dwight came back for their last game, but they are still starting Earl Clark.  The reality is the Lakers have absolutely no bench, any injury cripples them, and they have had a lot of injuries, which isn't surprising given the players and their ages and injury issues.  Everyone has always said, that the Lakers just need to get to the playoffs healthy to be a threat.  It looks like they might not be able to do it.  They need depth and a lot of it.
He seems to take the same number of shots whether everyone is in the lineup or not.  A few too many times I saw box scores where Kobe takes 30 shots and Howard and Gasol had 8 to 10. 
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: bfrombleacher on January 14, 2013, 08:56:47 AM
Kobe's having a great season so far.  He's been scoring at a very efficient rate.

Bryant has even said that he might start chasing Kareem's scoring record than the sixth chip, so if that's what he's trying ti accomplish, then he's doing what he has to do to get it.

I think that's where people have a problem...maybe?

Rondo would sacrifice his assist totals for sure. Garnett and Pierce would both sacrifice individual glory in the same position.

Hell, as much as I hate using LeBron James as an example, he sacrificed to get a championship.

But I think the loyalty our guys and a few other guys in the league have makes their desire that much sweeter. It's like they're doing it for the franchise whereas the aforementioned 2 were doing things for personal glory.
sacrifice what?  Without Kobe scoring that team would get destroyed.  I mean have you actually looked at the Lakers lineup.  I mean the Lakers starting lineup against the Thunder (2 games ago) was: Earl Clark, Metta World Peace, Robert Sacre, Kobe Bryant, and Steve Nash.  The bench consists of Antawn Jamison, Chris Duhon, Jodie Meeks, Darius Morris, and Devan Ebanks.  Who exactly is Kobe supposed to sacrifice for?  I mean seriously.  If Kobe wasn't scoring the Lakers would be far far worse than they actually are. 

Dwight came back for their last game, but they are still starting Earl Clark.  The reality is the Lakers have absolutely no bench, any injury cripples them, and they have had a lot of injuries, which isn't surprising given the players and their ages and injury issues.  Everyone has always said, that the Lakers just need to get to the playoffs healthy to be a threat.  It looks like they might not be able to do it.  They need depth and a lot of it.

I'm under the impression Pau Gasol didn't get the looks he should have. Instead apparently he's in the high post catching and shooting. Getting berated daily by Kobe Bryant certainly doesn't help his state of mind and resulting "softness".

Does Nash get the ball? I suspect there's a lot of isolating Kobe Bryant right now. The only Lakers game I watched this season was the first half of the Lakers-Clippers and Nash wasn't getting the ball a lot that game.

They call this (his high volume scoring) "killer instinct", "scorer's mentality"...but with one of the best passers and top big men, he just keeps jacking. I just feel like it's a bunch of Hollywood fluff.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just that I have the luxury of watching Garnett, Rondo and even Pierce who share the ball so darn well (the Rondo part might not be a luxury for some of you but I sure love it).

I can't stand watching the Lakers.

Either way, loving the demise. Only downside is Nash latched on to the wrong team.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 14, 2013, 09:16:32 AM
Kobe's having a great season so far.  He's been scoring at a very efficient rate.

Bryant has even said that he might start chasing Kareem's scoring record than the sixth chip, so if that's what he's trying ti accomplish, then he's doing what he has to do to get it.

I think that's where people have a problem...maybe?

Rondo would sacrifice his assist totals for sure. Garnett and Pierce would both sacrifice individual glory in the same position.

Hell, as much as I hate using LeBron James as an example, he sacrificed to get a championship.

But I think the loyalty our guys and a few other guys in the league have makes their desire that much sweeter. It's like they're doing it for the franchise whereas the aforementioned 2 were doing things for personal glory.
sacrifice what?  Without Kobe scoring that team would get destroyed.  I mean have you actually looked at the Lakers lineup.  I mean the Lakers starting lineup against the Thunder (2 games ago) was: Earl Clark, Metta World Peace, Robert Sacre, Kobe Bryant, and Steve Nash.  The bench consists of Antawn Jamison, Chris Duhon, Jodie Meeks, Darius Morris, and Devan Ebanks.  Who exactly is Kobe supposed to sacrifice for?  I mean seriously.  If Kobe wasn't scoring the Lakers would be far far worse than they actually are. 

Dwight came back for their last game, but they are still starting Earl Clark.  The reality is the Lakers have absolutely no bench, any injury cripples them, and they have had a lot of injuries, which isn't surprising given the players and their ages and injury issues.  Everyone has always said, that the Lakers just need to get to the playoffs healthy to be a threat.  It looks like they might not be able to do it.  They need depth and a lot of it.

I'm under the impression Pau Gasol didn't get the looks he should have. Instead apparently he's in the high post catching and shooting. Getting berated daily by Kobe Bryant certainly doesn't help his state of mind and resulting "softness".

Does Nash get the ball? I suspect there's a lot of isolating Kobe Bryant right now. The only Lakers game I watched this season was the first half of the Lakers-Clippers and Nash wasn't getting the ball a lot that game.

They call this (his high volume scoring) "killer instinct", "scorer's mentality"...but with one of the best passers and top big men, he just keeps jacking. I just feel like it's a bunch of Hollywood fluff.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just that I have the luxury of watching Garnett, Rondo and even Pierce who share the ball so darn well (the Rondo part might not be a luxury for some of you but I sure love it).

I can't stand watching the Lakers.

Either way, loving the demise. Only downside is Nash latched on to the wrong team.

Im still myself surprised that Nash chose the Lakers. He coulda been better off some place else. A reuniting with Dallas or running the Knicks offense alongside Kidd immediately come to mind.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Chelm on January 14, 2013, 10:49:09 AM
No guard has averaged 15ppg in his 17th season in the history of the NBA.  Kobe is averaging 30ppg.  47/35/84 are his percentages.  He's playing 40 min a game at his age and averaging 5 rebounds and 5 assists.  He's pretty awful at defending the young athletic guys, but he's also getting 1.5 steals a game.
I did not know this.  Amazing.

how many guards were as young as Kobe is in his 17th season?  People often forget Kobe had a 4 year head start on the other players in NBA history his stats are compared to.

Instead of saying Kobes in his 17th season, lets just look at his age.  At 34 hes averaging 30 points a game, when Jordan was 34 he was also averaging 30 points a game.

Still impressive, and Kobe is a great players, but im sick of these stats that are thrown out there that inflate the truth

So I looked it up on basketball-reference.com -- looking for age instead of seasons played -- and apparently 5 players have scored more than 25ppg at 34+ years of age.

Two players did so twice, Karl Malone (34, 36 years old) and Alex English (34, 35). Everybody else on the list was 34 years of age. K.Malone was therefore the oldest player to do so at 36 years of age in 1999-2000. The other players were Michael Jordan (1998), Bernard King (1991) and Dominique Wilkins (1994).

If Kobe can maintain his current scoring rate (29.8ppg), he would be the most prolific scorer of the group. Michael Jordan is the current high scorer at 28.7ppg. Bernard King had 28.4. The rest are between 25.0ppg and 27.0ppg. So Kobe only has two peers in terms how prolific he has been and is currently ahead of both of them.

If Kobe can maintain his current true shooting percentage (58.5%), he would rank 2nd best sandwiched in between Karl Malone's two seasons (59.7% and 58.2%). Nobody else managed to get higher than 53.5%. So it is pretty special what Karl Malone did and what Kobe Bryant is doing now efficiency wise.
Malone wasn't a guard.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Moranis on January 14, 2013, 11:26:06 AM
Kobe's having a great season so far.  He's been scoring at a very efficient rate.

Bryant has even said that he might start chasing Kareem's scoring record than the sixth chip, so if that's what he's trying ti accomplish, then he's doing what he has to do to get it.

I think that's where people have a problem...maybe?

Rondo would sacrifice his assist totals for sure. Garnett and Pierce would both sacrifice individual glory in the same position.

Hell, as much as I hate using LeBron James as an example, he sacrificed to get a championship.

But I think the loyalty our guys and a few other guys in the league have makes their desire that much sweeter. It's like they're doing it for the franchise whereas the aforementioned 2 were doing things for personal glory.
sacrifice what?  Without Kobe scoring that team would get destroyed.  I mean have you actually looked at the Lakers lineup.  I mean the Lakers starting lineup against the Thunder (2 games ago) was: Earl Clark, Metta World Peace, Robert Sacre, Kobe Bryant, and Steve Nash.  The bench consists of Antawn Jamison, Chris Duhon, Jodie Meeks, Darius Morris, and Devan Ebanks.  Who exactly is Kobe supposed to sacrifice for?  I mean seriously.  If Kobe wasn't scoring the Lakers would be far far worse than they actually are. 

Dwight came back for their last game, but they are still starting Earl Clark.  The reality is the Lakers have absolutely no bench, any injury cripples them, and they have had a lot of injuries, which isn't surprising given the players and their ages and injury issues.  Everyone has always said, that the Lakers just need to get to the playoffs healthy to be a threat.  It looks like they might not be able to do it.  They need depth and a lot of it.

I'm under the impression Pau Gasol didn't get the looks he should have. Instead apparently he's in the high post catching and shooting. Getting berated daily by Kobe Bryant certainly doesn't help his state of mind and resulting "softness".

Does Nash get the ball? I suspect there's a lot of isolating Kobe Bryant right now. The only Lakers game I watched this season was the first half of the Lakers-Clippers and Nash wasn't getting the ball a lot that game.

They call this (his high volume scoring) "killer instinct", "scorer's mentality"...but with one of the best passers and top big men, he just keeps jacking. I just feel like it's a bunch of Hollywood fluff.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just that I have the luxury of watching Garnett, Rondo and even Pierce who share the ball so darn well (the Rondo part might not be a luxury for some of you but I sure love it).

I can't stand watching the Lakers.

Either way, loving the demise. Only downside is Nash latched on to the wrong team.
You do realize Kobe Bryant is 4th in the league among shooting guards for FG% right?  Wade, Brooks, and Dudley are the only 3 SG's ahead of him and Wade is the only one within 10 points of him per game.  When you look at just 2 point percentage, Kobe leads all SG's.  He is 4th in PPS among SG's with only Harden, Martin, and Allen ahead of him.  You are acting like Kobe is just chucking and not hitting.

Kobe is also far more efficient than every other Laker except Dwight and Nash, and they are both getting plenty of looks, you know when they actually play.  I mean should Kobe pass up a shot to pass to Pau and his 41.6% or should Kobe shoot it and take the chances on his just under 48%. 

This thread is nothing more than Celtics fans taking the chance to bash the Lakers.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Finkelskyhook on January 14, 2013, 02:50:04 PM
Says more about Lakers management than Bryant.

Los Nash is a horrible fit for this team.  Howard, while functionally a better fit on a defensive-oriented team, gives them one more diva for management to deal with along with Gasol, Artest, and los Nash.

This was predictably a train wreck.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Kane3387 on January 14, 2013, 03:58:15 PM
He's overrated as an all-time great or legend. Amazing scorer and individual talent, but was never someone consistently great at making his teammates better.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Moranis on January 14, 2013, 04:02:36 PM
Amazing scorer and individual talent, but was never someone consistently great at making his teammates better.
Seems like you could be talking about Jordan there.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Snakehead on January 14, 2013, 04:04:04 PM
Great player, hard worker, killer instinct (although not necessarily clutch), dirtbag human being, terrible teammate

This about sums it up.  Also: refers to himself in the third person with a nickname THAT HE MADE UP.  Gross.


He's overrated as an all-time great or legend. Amazing scorer and individual talent, but was never someone consistently great at making his teammates better.


I agree with this.  Not that he isn't still one of the better players to play but there players from the era I think are better, Shaq being one of them for sure.  Also KG and Duncan.  But that's not the popular narrative.

When LeBron was catching all hell for going to Miami, Kobe must have been loving that he has never gotten any sort of label as a bandwagoner or guy who "has to team up with other talents to win" because he doesn't have to do it in free agency, the Lakers just do it for him.  That's probably what annoys me most, that Kobe gets all the credit for winning any title he has as if he didn't play with the players he has played with.

I'm not a big fan of the label anyways because I think you always need multiple great players but regardless, the narrative was one sided.


Amazing scorer and individual talent, but was never someone consistently great at making his teammates better.
Seems like you could be talking about Jordan there.

So Jordan was a terrible teammate?  I don't think so.

He learned to play as a team.  Started out playing somewhat selfish (though you can debate if he had a real option not to) but he was not selfish in the way Kobe later on when he was winning titles.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: D Dub on January 14, 2013, 04:10:57 PM
it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses

don't care how efficient he's shooting, when the end result is everyone else standing around watching Kobe going 1v5, it's bad basketball. 

watching most of their games, I see a guy whose bent on catching Kareem & doesn't care much for playing defense or making his teammates better.





Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Fafnir on January 14, 2013, 04:13:59 PM
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: D Dub on January 14, 2013, 04:16:36 PM
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

with all due respect, that's a pretty weak comparison. 
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: AB_Celtic on January 14, 2013, 04:16:43 PM
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

If what you're trying to say here is that the reason they're 6-20 in those games is because Kobe HAS to take those shots (because everyone else is stinking) then I agree.

Very similar to Rondo on the C's. His most dominant games are in losses, when he has to make up the slack for struggling players. When his teammates are clicking, however, he just runs the offense and focuses a little more on defense, neither of which shows up on the stat sheet.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: ScottHow on January 14, 2013, 04:17:10 PM
Great player, hard worker, killer instinct (although not necessarily clutch), dirtbag human being, terrible teammate

This
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: D Dub on January 14, 2013, 04:21:55 PM
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

If what you're trying to say here is that the reason they're 6-20 in those games is because Kobe HAS to take those shots (because everyone else is stinking) then I agree.

Very similar to Rondo on the C's. His most dominant games are in losses, when he has to make up the slack for struggling players. When his teammates are clicking, however, he just runs the offense and focuses a little more on defense, neither of which shows up on the stat sheet.

IDK, 20 shot attempts is an awful lot. 

He first has to shoot his team out of the game before he can try to shoot them back into it...
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Fafnir on January 14, 2013, 04:30:43 PM
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

with all due respect, that's a pretty weak comparison.
Why?

You're taking shoot attempts and correlating it with wins, without looking deeper. Not to mention by picking an endpoint, in this case 20 FGA, you can mess with the data.

If you include 20 the record goes to 10-5 versus 6-18, if you go up to 24 suddenly its 14-14 versus 2-7. Do you want to include free throw attempts, assists, and turnovers as well?

You can say something similar that if he plays under 36 minutes in a game they're 8-3 versus 8-20. Or under 34 minutes they're 7-0.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: AB_Celtic on January 14, 2013, 04:33:14 PM
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

If what you're trying to say here is that the reason they're 6-20 in those games is because Kobe HAS to take those shots (because everyone else is stinking) then I agree.

Very similar to Rondo on the C's. His most dominant games are in losses, when he has to make up the slack for struggling players. When his teammates are clicking, however, he just runs the offense and focuses a little more on defense, neither of which shows up on the stat sheet.

IDK, 20 shot attempts is an awful lot. 

He first has to shoot his team out of the game before he can try to shoot them back into it...

In the game against the Hawks earlier this year, Paul Pierce took 9 shots in the third quarter alone. Granted, we won that quarter 33-9 because he was feeling it, but I can absolutely see Kobe trying to get his team back into games by taking a ton of shots late.

A great example is the Lakers-Cavs game earlier this year. Kobe took 28 shots in that game.

5/6 in the first quarter
          Score: CLE 29 LAL 23
2/4 in the second quarter
          Score: CLE 54 LAL 39
4/8 in the third quarter
          Score: CLE 68 LAL 62
4/9 in the fourth quarter
          Score: CLE 100 LAL 94

There are two things to notice here:
- Kobe took 60% of his shots in the second half, in an effort to get his team back into it.
- The large amount of shots he took in the first half were because he was feeling it: 7/10.

This probably isn't even the best example. EDIT: Another example: the loss against the Nuggets. Kobe took 26 shots, 6 in the first half, 20 in the second.

To be clear, though, I hate Kobe as a person :P
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: D Dub on January 14, 2013, 04:37:21 PM
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

with all due respect, that's a pretty weak comparison.
Why?

You're taking shoot attempts and correlating it with wins, without looking deeper. Not to mention by picking an endpoint, in this case 20 FGA, you can mess with the data.

If you include 20 the record goes to 10-5 versus 6-18, if you go up to 24 suddenly its 14-14 versus 2-7. Do you want to include free throw attempts, assists, and turnovers as well?

You can say something similar that if he plays under 36 minutes in a game they're 8-3 versus 8-20. Or under 34 minutes they're 7-0.

it's weak because you compared the way that you score in basketball to the way you run out the clock in football.  that's like apples and giraffes... 
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: D Dub on January 14, 2013, 04:45:50 PM
26 games so far this year where Kobe has taken > 20 shots.


yet Dwight Howard has NEVER taken 20 FGA once, averages 10.4



If you're coaching LA, is that really how you'd use these two?

 
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Fafnir on January 14, 2013, 04:51:46 PM
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

with all due respect, that's a pretty weak comparison.
Why?

You're taking shoot attempts and correlating it with wins, without looking deeper. Not to mention by picking an endpoint, in this case 20 FGA, you can mess with the data.

If you include 20 the record goes to 10-5 versus 6-18, if you go up to 24 suddenly its 14-14 versus 2-7. Do you want to include free throw attempts, assists, and turnovers as well?

You can say something similar that if he plays under 36 minutes in a game they're 8-3 versus 8-20. Or under 34 minutes they're 7-0.

it's weak because you compared the way that you score in basketball to the way you run out the clock in football.  that's like apples and giraffes...
I'm not comparing running out the clock to how you score in basketball. I'm comparing missing the forest for the trees.

Both your example, Kobe's FGAs, and mine, QB kneeldowns, assume a causation if you're trying to use them to explain wins and losses.

Or you can take a wider view and realize, Kobe is going to shoot when he's in the game. If a game is close then Kobe is going to play more, and since close games are close when Kobe shoots more then his team is going to lose more.

Just like teams that are winning the game will kneel down and run out the clock. Or will run the ball more and wrack up more rushing attempts. Rushing attempts correlates to win as well, but that's because teams with big leads will just take the air out of the ball in the second half.

I full believe Kobe will often ball hog and that can hurt his team. Phil Jackson says so in his book when discussing Kobe. But a simplistic FGA argument like you present is a poor way to make it.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Fafnir on January 14, 2013, 04:54:52 PM
26 games so far this year where Kobe has taken > 20 shots.


yet Dwight Howard has NEVER taken 20 FGA once, averages 10.4



If you're coaching LA, is that really how you'd use these two?
If you want to consider how many touches Howard gets offensively you can't just look at FGA, you have to consider FTAs because he gets fouled so often near the basket.

Also why should Howard get a ton of shot attempts? He's never been a high volume shot guy, that's not his game. He's only shooting 3 less shots per game this year, with his minutes down to boot. His career average is just 11.2 FGA per game.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: D Dub on January 14, 2013, 05:19:02 PM
26 games so far this year where Kobe has taken > 20 shots.


yet Dwight Howard has NEVER taken 20 FGA once, averages 10.4



If you're coaching LA, is that really how you'd use these two?
If you want to consider how many touches Howard gets offensively you can't just look at FGA, you have to consider FTAs because he gets fouled so often near the basket.

Also why should Howard get a ton of shot attempts? He's never been a high volume shot guy, that's not his game. He's only shooting 3 less shots per game this year, with his minutes down to boot. His career average is just 11.2 FGA per game.


a lot of Howards FTA are off-the-ball fouls, just sayin...

but admittedly, I'm not a stat guy.  I have watched all the Laker games because I didn't order league pass this year, and now the Laker channel comes with basic cable.

it's just obvious that ball movement is a major problem.  my stat backs it up. 
phil jax book backs it up. 
dhoward's post-game comments back it up.
heck even you agreed with me in your last post about it's stagnating effects. 
Qback kneel downs?  I just think that's a poor comparison


back on topic, to me, Kobe has shown little/none bball IQ when he's taking defensive possessions off to save his legs for jacking up 25 shots on the other end. 

Are you watching these guys?  Does it look like anyone on that team actually likes playing with Kobe? 

Like I said before, he's got to shoot them out of the game before he can try to shoot them back into it.  Let us not forget that most all these shot attempts are being double and triple teamed.  You are defending a style of play that has resulted in a sub-500 record and it's not like he doesn't have any help this year...

when LA shares the ball, they usually win.  when Kobe plays hero ball, they've lost quite a bit this year. 

deride my poor choice of statistic all you want but that's the reality on the ground.     

 
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Adelaide Celt on January 14, 2013, 05:39:25 PM
Great player, hard worker, killer instinct (although not necessarily clutch), dirtbag human being, terrible teammate

This about sums it up.  Also: refers to himself in the third person with a nickname THAT HE MADE UP.  Gross.

He didn't make that nickname up, he STOLE it from Roger Mayweather. I wonder what he thinks about some rapist basketballer biting on his nickname?
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: soap07 on January 14, 2013, 05:40:41 PM
People keeps harping on the Lakers offense - that it's stagnant, Kobe is a ballhog, etc etc...in spite of all that, it is still one of the best offenses in the league. Whatever they're doing on that end, it is working.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Moranis on January 14, 2013, 05:55:27 PM
While I'm open to the criticism that Kobe's shooting so much can freeze the overall flow of his team, I don't think this holds up:

it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses
Reminds me of the joking statement:

"Teams that kneel down 3 or more times in a game win XX% of the time, coaches should call for 3 kneel downs on their first posession"

If what you're trying to say here is that the reason they're 6-20 in those games is because Kobe HAS to take those shots (because everyone else is stinking) then I agree.

Very similar to Rondo on the C's. His most dominant games are in losses, when he has to make up the slack for struggling players. When his teammates are clicking, however, he just runs the offense and focuses a little more on defense, neither of which shows up on the stat sheet.
yeah this is pretty much spot on.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: moiso on January 14, 2013, 05:56:13 PM
Great player, hard worker, killer instinct (although not necessarily clutch), dirtbag human being, terrible teammate

This about sums it up.  Also: refers to himself in the third person with a nickname THAT HE MADE UP.  Gross.

He didn't make that nickname up, he STOLE it from Roger Mayweather. I wonder what he thinks about some rapist basketballer biting on his nickname?
either way it's pretty queer to nickname yourself.  I feel the same way about Amare.  sTAT may be even worse.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Fafnir on January 15, 2013, 09:06:03 AM
Bump

Saw this headline on sportscenter this morning

Bigger defensive role for Kobe Bryant (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8844744/kobe-bryant-los-angeles-lakers-take-more-important-defensive-role-mike-dantoni-says)

Intersting to see how many minutes per game they try this out. Phil would do this too obviously, but not a ton during the regular season. I guess with their record they need to just go for it.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: OsirusCeltics on January 15, 2013, 09:08:47 AM
Bump

Saw this headline on sportscenter this morning

Bigger defensive role for Kobe Bryant (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8844744/kobe-bryant-los-angeles-lakers-take-more-important-defensive-role-mike-dantoni-says)

Intersting to see how many minutes per game they try this out. Phil would do this too obviously, but not a ton during the regular season. I guess with their record they need to just go for it.

Thanks for the vid

If ESPN thinks Kobe is going to change the way he plays his entire life at 34, they must be in dreamland lol
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Chelm on January 15, 2013, 01:53:38 PM

This about sums it up.  Also: refers to himself in the third person with a nickname THAT HE MADE UP.  Gross.


He's overrated as an all-time great or legend. Amazing scorer and individual talent, but was never someone consistently great at making his teammates better.


I agree with this.  Not that he isn't still one of the better players to play but there players from the era I think are better, Shaq being one of them for sure.  Also KG and Duncan.  But that's not the popular narrative.

When LeBron was catching all hell for going to Miami, Kobe must have been loving that he has never gotten any sort of label as a bandwagoner or guy who "has to team up with other talents to win" because he doesn't have to do it in free agency, the Lakers just do it for him.  That's probably what annoys me most, that Kobe gets all the credit for winning any title he has as if he didn't play with the players he has played with.

I'm not a big fan of the label anyways because I think you always need multiple great players but regardless, the narrative was one sided.


Amazing scorer and individual talent, but was never someone consistently great at making his teammates better.
Seems like you could be talking about Jordan there.

So Jordan was a terrible teammate?  I don't think so.

He learned to play as a team.  Started out playing somewhat selfish (though you can debate if he had a real option not to) but he was not selfish in the way Kobe later on when he was winning titles.
The Big Shamrock would like a word with you.  Also, Jordan punched Steve Kerr in the face in practice... good teammate?
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Chelm on January 15, 2013, 01:56:23 PM
it says Kobe has a really low bball IQ. 

Kobe FGA < 20:
10 wins, 3 losses

Kobe FGA > 20:
6 wins, 20 losses

don't care how efficient he's shooting, when the end result is everyone else standing around watching Kobe going 1v5, it's bad basketball. 

watching most of their games, I see a guy whose bent on catching Kareem & doesn't care much for playing defense or making his teammates better.
I hear that stat often.  It's completely misleading.  When his team is already down, he may to try to bring his team back into it by shooting/scoring more.  When they're up big, he sits.

It irks me when statistics are misused to prove a point, assuming they're made in an information vacuum.

I also think he's much more hell-bent on catching Jordan than Kareem.

EDIT:  apologies, I see this was torn apart.  Remind me to read a whole chain before posting.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: azzenfrost on January 15, 2013, 03:06:43 PM
Makes sense.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: OsirusCeltics on January 18, 2013, 01:13:35 AM
I'm sorry but I'd have to disagree. The one who is overrated on that team is without a doubt Dwight. He's ridiculously overrated. All dwight does is take a running hook which never goes in with the occasional face up bank shot from a terrible angle from about 12-15 feet out. Not to mention he goes up soft every time he attacks the basket then doesn't make his free throws, that is why i don't buy the shaq comparison because shaq even when they hack the crap out of him he went up and dunked it. You can't blame Kobe for Dwight's lack of focus and desire or pau's inability to grow a pair. Don't get me wrong i hate the lakers as much as any die hard Celts fan does, however I RESPECT Kobe and his game because there is no denying he is more talented than any player playing right now

Agree, that one is obvious. Saying Dwight is overrated is like saying water is wet
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Fafnir on January 18, 2013, 04:39:43 PM
Dwight Howard is shooting right around his career average. I don't get where the he's going up soft idea comes from. He clearly has lost some athleticism, you can see it with your eyes and in his rebounding rate.

His offense is ugly, but its also really effective, he's still an efficient offense player.

He's soft mentally but that's a separate issue.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: OmarSekou on January 18, 2013, 08:25:10 PM
I think it says that he is able to maintain a marriage through a combination of intimidation, fear, and sheer force of will.

On a serious note it shows that he's a basketball obsessed freak of nature who struggles to coexist with teammates. So... nothing new.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: makaveli on January 20, 2013, 03:14:13 PM
I can't believe what is going on with their team. The worst pessimists among the Lakers fans and the biggest haters or doubters couldn't predict the score they have right now.
I'd say things would really have to make a U turn in order for them to make the playoffs. Even if they make the playoffs they will most likely face OKC.
Title: Re: What this Laker season says about Kobe Bryant
Post by: Nowee on January 20, 2013, 03:36:57 PM
Double Happy! Toronto won me money and the Lakers lost

Kobe shot more then 30 shots and made 1/3