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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: hpantazo on January 06, 2013, 11:13:23 AM

Title: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: hpantazo on January 06, 2013, 11:13:23 AM
From Washburn's article today,at halftime last night, they supposedly took shots at each other and at Doc for not changing the defensive strategy, and it turns out Doc was right not to change it. According to the article, Pierce called the players aside and set them straight.


http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/2013/01/06/second-half-surge-sparks-celtics-victory-over-atlanta-hawks/hbO7W0gI4TgHS45HgTeVwI/story.html

"Atlanta led, 46-27, with 6:20 left in the half, as the Celtics were back to their uninterested ways. At halftime, the players spent most of their break arguing with each other, snapping back at coach Doc Rivers for his criticism, and expressing frustration at a 15-point deficit. None of this, according to Pierce, was productive.

Pierce called his teammates together before they returned to the floor and told them to take a little of the anger out on their opponents."

Good thing we have a leader like Pierce to put players in the right mindset instead of blaming them like some other so called vets on other teams would do.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: KGs Knee on January 06, 2013, 11:24:08 AM
I'd like to to know who was doing the "bickering".
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: csfansince60s on January 06, 2013, 11:26:34 AM
This dissension, if depicted correctly, speaks strongly to the idea that a trade is definitely coming, regardless of our uptick in play.

Very curious as to who are the main complainers and finger-pointers, also?

TP for the article.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: cman88 on January 06, 2013, 11:32:24 AM
I think when a team is losing by 15points, they get frustrated...theyve been losing alot of games.

they need to SEE(and hopefully they have after the past 2 games) that if they give that kind of effort defensively they can win ANY game.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: eja117 on January 06, 2013, 11:32:34 AM
I'm assuming any guard not named Bradley was getting pointed at for Lou Williams going 7 for 7. They probably wanted Avery to deal with that dirty work and Doc said it was more important for Avery to deal with the pg. Actually held them accountable for defending their own guy.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 06, 2013, 11:40:11 AM
Just thankful for Paul Pierce.

Rondo may be the new leader of this team, but Paul Pierce is STILL The Captain.

To be clear - I don't believe that Rondo is the source of the arguing, here.

As many of us, I'm curious as to who was doing the majority of the arguing and blame.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: clover on January 06, 2013, 11:40:49 AM
This dissension, if depicted correctly, speaks strongly to the idea that a trade is definitely coming, regardless of our uptick in play.

Very curious as to who are the main complainers and finger-pointers, also?

TP for the article.

I'm curious as to Washburn's source.  Can't be Ray these days.  If it's Pierce publicly this time, was it also Pierce OTR last week?
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 06, 2013, 11:44:38 AM
Nice to see pierce not only set them straight but allow his team to trust their coach. Hopefully this will be a turning point for us. It was like night and day from first half to second half. Second half was celtics ball. Effort and intensity throughout.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 06, 2013, 11:55:36 AM
A big meh from my side.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: cman88 on January 06, 2013, 12:01:08 PM
its most likely the new guys....Doc is trying to instill in them that you have to play with that intensity level EVERY NIGHT.

our starters know it...and if our bench can keep playing like that intensity level we will win alot of games going forward.

these last 2 games were important for them...to know that even if you are down 15points..you can with WITH YOUR DEFENSE

now, lets bring on the knicks.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: European NBA fan on January 06, 2013, 12:05:15 PM
To me the argument isn't interesting, because any team would argue after that 1st half. The point is that Doc trusts himself and the team enough to stick with the game plan, and Pierce does the same. That's a team moving in the right direction.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 06, 2013, 12:07:07 PM
its most likely the new guys....Doc is trying to instill in them that you have to play with that intensity level EVERY NIGHT.

our starters know it...and if our bench can keep playing like that intensity level we will win alot of games going forward.

these last 2 games were important for them...to know that even if you are down 15points..you can with WITH YOUR DEFENSE

now, lets bring on the knicks.

Why keep pointing fingers at our new guys... it was our starters principally that weren't getting the job done last night in the first half, in particular Rondo who was awful on both ends of the floor.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 06, 2013, 12:08:27 PM
To me the argument isn't interesting, because any team would argue after that 1st half. The point is that Doc trusts himself and the team enough to stick with the game plan, and Pierce does the same. That's a team moving in the right direction.

Pretty much the way I see it.

Complete non-issue, no need to overreact to a frustrating half. That's why you have leaders on the team, to help focus.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: Trifecta on January 06, 2013, 12:09:22 PM
bickering happens even with good teams. great play after the break, very inspiring. not really worried about this.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: eja117 on January 06, 2013, 12:16:09 PM
its most likely the new guys....Doc is trying to instill in them that you have to play with that intensity level EVERY NIGHT.

our starters know it...and if our bench can keep playing like that intensity level we will win alot of games going forward.

these last 2 games were important for them...to know that even if you are down 15points..you can with WITH YOUR DEFENSE

now, lets bring on the knicks.

Why keep pointing fingers at our new guys... it was our starters principally that weren't getting the job done last night in the first half, in particular Rondo who was awful on both ends of the floor.
Because Jet went 2-8 with 0 blocks, steals, or rebs in over 25 mins, while Jeff Preen went 1-4 with 0, blocks, or steals, one reb, and one TO in 15 mins. Jason Collins also had zero rebs, steals or blocks in almost 4 mins, and keep in mind that was mostly against Zaza. Nobody is saying anything bad against Sully who went 4 for 8, with 9 rebs, two assists, and a block in 23 and a half minutes.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 06, 2013, 12:18:28 PM
its most likely the new guys....Doc is trying to instill in them that you have to play with that intensity level EVERY NIGHT.

our starters know it...and if our bench can keep playing like that intensity level we will win alot of games going forward.

these last 2 games were important for them...to know that even if you are down 15points..you can with WITH YOUR DEFENSE

now, lets bring on the knicks.

Why keep pointing fingers at our new guys... it was our starters principally that weren't getting the job done last night in the first half, in particular Rondo who was awful on both ends of the floor.
Because Jet went 2-8 with 0 blocks, steals, or rebs in over 25 mins, while Jeff Preen went 1-4 with 0, blocks, or steals, one reb, and one TO in 15 mins. Jason Collins also had zero rebs, steals or blocks in almost 4 mins, and keep in mind that was mostly against Zaza. Nobody is saying anything bad against Sully who went 4 for 8, with 9 rebs, two assists, and a block in 23 and a half minutes.

Other than we're talking here about defense... and most of the damage was done by Lou, who get this, was guarded by one named Rondo, who also turned the ball over 4+ times in the first half alone.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: nickagneta on January 06, 2013, 12:19:36 PM
This is on the heals of Washburn's story earlier in the week, hinting at a dichotomy of the locker room and there definitely being a faction that is not as caring of the results occurring than some others.

This is another article that is fostering that implication without actually naming names.

As I said before, watch any upcoming Celtics' trades. Those going out are more than likely those that do not have the attitude that this team has had for the past 5 years.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: soap07 on January 06, 2013, 12:23:33 PM
Such a non-story. Players arguing out of frustration when the team is down? I'm sure this doesn't happen in any team sport on any level ever.

Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: mctyson on January 06, 2013, 12:34:00 PM
I'd like to to know who was doing the "bickering".

Probably KG and Rondo.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: eja117 on January 06, 2013, 12:37:51 PM
its most likely the new guys....Doc is trying to instill in them that you have to play with that intensity level EVERY NIGHT.

our starters know it...and if our bench can keep playing like that intensity level we will win alot of games going forward.

these last 2 games were important for them...to know that even if you are down 15points..you can with WITH YOUR DEFENSE

now, lets bring on the knicks.

Why keep pointing fingers at our new guys... it was our starters principally that weren't getting the job done last night in the first half, in particular Rondo who was awful on both ends of the floor.
Because Jet went 2-8 with 0 blocks, steals, or rebs in over 25 mins, while Jeff Preen went 1-4 with 0, blocks, or steals, one reb, and one TO in 15 mins. Jason Collins also had zero rebs, steals or blocks in almost 4 mins, and keep in mind that was mostly against Zaza. Nobody is saying anything bad against Sully who went 4 for 8, with 9 rebs, two assists, and a block in 23 and a half minutes.

Other than we're talking here about defense... and most of the damage was done by Lou, who get this, was guarded by one named Rondo, who also turned the ball over 4+ times in the first half alone.
I don't understand. While Rondo was on his way to a triple double last night which of the new guys was playing such great defense? Because I totally missed that.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 06, 2013, 12:41:21 PM
its most likely the new guys....Doc is trying to instill in them that you have to play with that intensity level EVERY NIGHT.

our starters know it...and if our bench can keep playing like that intensity level we will win alot of games going forward.

these last 2 games were important for them...to know that even if you are down 15points..you can with WITH YOUR DEFENSE

now, lets bring on the knicks.

Why keep pointing fingers at our new guys... it was our starters principally that weren't getting the job done last night in the first half, in particular Rondo who was awful on both ends of the floor.
Because Jet went 2-8 with 0 blocks, steals, or rebs in over 25 mins, while Jeff Preen went 1-4 with 0, blocks, or steals, one reb, and one TO in 15 mins. Jason Collins also had zero rebs, steals or blocks in almost 4 mins, and keep in mind that was mostly against Zaza. Nobody is saying anything bad against Sully who went 4 for 8, with 9 rebs, two assists, and a block in 23 and a half minutes.

Other than we're talking here about defense... and most of the damage was done by Lou, who get this, was guarded by one named Rondo, who also turned the ball over 4+ times in the first half alone.
I don't understand. While Rondo was on his way to a triple double last night which of the new guys was playing such great defense? Because I totally missed that.

Have I made a claim where our players were playing great defense? I completely missed it. All I'm saying is that the main culprit for our first half problems was Rondo. His defensive effort was non-existent, and he was doing a very poor job offensively.

He wasn't on his way to a triple double in the first half, sorry, but that's not the way he played.

And since he's apparently our leader, everything should start with him, so I don't see the point of pointing fingers at our bench/new guys, when our starters were doing such a poor job in the first place.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: eja117 on January 06, 2013, 12:48:07 PM
its most likely the new guys....Doc is trying to instill in them that you have to play with that intensity level EVERY NIGHT.

our starters know it...and if our bench can keep playing like that intensity level we will win alot of games going forward.

these last 2 games were important for them...to know that even if you are down 15points..you can with WITH YOUR DEFENSE

now, lets bring on the knicks.

Why keep pointing fingers at our new guys... it was our starters principally that weren't getting the job done last night in the first half, in particular Rondo who was awful on both ends of the floor.
Because Jet went 2-8 with 0 blocks, steals, or rebs in over 25 mins, while Jeff Preen went 1-4 with 0, blocks, or steals, one reb, and one TO in 15 mins. Jason Collins also had zero rebs, steals or blocks in almost 4 mins, and keep in mind that was mostly against Zaza. Nobody is saying anything bad against Sully who went 4 for 8, with 9 rebs, two assists, and a block in 23 and a half minutes.

Other than we're talking here about defense... and most of the damage was done by Lou, who get this, was guarded by one named Rondo, who also turned the ball over 4+ times in the first half alone.
I don't understand. While Rondo was on his way to a triple double last night which of the new guys was playing such great defense? Because I totally missed that.

Have I made a claim where our players were playing great defense? I completely missed it. All I'm saying is that the main culprit for our first half problems was Rondo. His defensive effort was non-existent, and he was doing a very poor job offensively.

He wasn't on his way to a triple double in the first half, sorry, but that's not the way he played.

And since he's apparently our leader, everything should start with him, so I don't see the point of pointing fingers at our bench/new guys, when our starters were doing such a poor job in the first place.
I think the difference is that Rondo has been known to play well. He does it sometimes. I haven't seen any of the new guys play well. I can't recall a time this year when I thought "Man. I am so glad we have this guy".  A couple of them are being paid that way. When you're on the bench and the starter is having a bad game it's not your job to come in and play just as bad. I think that's why the new guys get more fingers pointed at them.  The only new guy that plays well is Sully.  You can't expect all the starters to all have a good game every game. But you can expect the new guys to have more than one guy have a good game more than once in a while. But it never happens.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 06, 2013, 12:51:15 PM
its most likely the new guys....Doc is trying to instill in them that you have to play with that intensity level EVERY NIGHT.

our starters know it...and if our bench can keep playing like that intensity level we will win alot of games going forward.

these last 2 games were important for them...to know that even if you are down 15points..you can with WITH YOUR DEFENSE

now, lets bring on the knicks.

Why keep pointing fingers at our new guys... it was our starters principally that weren't getting the job done last night in the first half, in particular Rondo who was awful on both ends of the floor.
Because Jet went 2-8 with 0 blocks, steals, or rebs in over 25 mins, while Jeff Preen went 1-4 with 0, blocks, or steals, one reb, and one TO in 15 mins. Jason Collins also had zero rebs, steals or blocks in almost 4 mins, and keep in mind that was mostly against Zaza. Nobody is saying anything bad against Sully who went 4 for 8, with 9 rebs, two assists, and a block in 23 and a half minutes.

Other than we're talking here about defense... and most of the damage was done by Lou, who get this, was guarded by one named Rondo, who also turned the ball over 4+ times in the first half alone.
I don't understand. While Rondo was on his way to a triple double last night which of the new guys was playing such great defense? Because I totally missed that.

Have I made a claim where our players were playing great defense? I completely missed it. All I'm saying is that the main culprit for our first half problems was Rondo. His defensive effort was non-existent, and he was doing a very poor job offensively.

He wasn't on his way to a triple double in the first half, sorry, but that's not the way he played.

And since he's apparently our leader, everything should start with him, so I don't see the point of pointing fingers at our bench/new guys, when our starters were doing such a poor job in the first place.
I think the difference is that Rondo has been known to play well. He does it sometimes. I haven't seen any of the new guys play well. I can't recall a time this year when I thought "Man. I am so glad we have this guy".  A couple of them are being paid that way. When you're on the bench and the starter is having a bad game it's not your job to come in and play just as bad. I think that's why the new guys get more fingers pointed at them.  The only new guy that plays well is Sully.  You can't expect all the starters to all have a good game every game. But you can expect the new guys to have more than one guy have a good game more than once in a while. But it never happens.

Lee is playing well, but for some reason Doc refuses to give him more playing time, including yesterday... which worked out since Terry actually played good defense in the 4th quarter.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: Clench123 on January 06, 2013, 12:56:57 PM
This just shows that Doc is the right coach for this team.  Also shows that it's players' effort that's been lacking all along, not Doc's system or rotation.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: Redz on January 06, 2013, 12:58:54 PM
I only caught the last few minutes of the first half, then the majority of the second half last night, but there are very few teams in the league who are prepared to deal with the level of intensity the Celtics brought in the second half.  It makes the `07-`08 team all the more impressive to reflect on, because they basically played at that level for an entire season.

We simply have not seen Rondo diving for loose balls in the regular season. 

I don't know that we should expect them to maintain that level of intensity throughout the season, but it's at least comforting to know that that level is still attainable.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: ScottHow on January 06, 2013, 01:05:14 PM
Hopefully this doesn't get overblown
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: TheBig5 on January 06, 2013, 01:20:49 PM
I'm not worried about this. Quick someone drug up the Cavs GM and make this happen, trade Green, Collins, Melo and a Pick for Varejao and Gee.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: vinnie on January 06, 2013, 01:45:52 PM
I think Green is definitely heading out of town and it would not surprise me if Jet was also on the list. They need a backup big and a backup SF if Green is gone, although in my opinion, any journeyman small forward can give them what Green is giving them.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: RJ87 on January 06, 2013, 01:45:57 PM
This will be blown out of proportion (I can already see the Rondo bashers looking for ways to blame him), but obviously the team came out of it and played well. This is a non-story.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 06, 2013, 02:10:34 PM
its most likely the new guys....Doc is trying to instill in them that you have to play with that intensity level EVERY NIGHT.

our starters know it...and if our bench can keep playing like that intensity level we will win alot of games going forward.

these last 2 games were important for them...to know that even if you are down 15points..you can with WITH YOUR DEFENSE

now, lets bring on the knicks.

Why keep pointing fingers at our new guys... it was our starters principally that weren't getting the job done last night in the first half, in particular Rondo who was awful on both ends of the floor.
Because Jet went 2-8 with 0 blocks, steals, or rebs in over 25 mins, while Jeff Preen went 1-4 with 0, blocks, or steals, one reb, and one TO in 15 mins. Jason Collins also had zero rebs, steals or blocks in almost 4 mins, and keep in mind that was mostly against Zaza. Nobody is saying anything bad against Sully who went 4 for 8, with 9 rebs, two assists, and a block in 23 and a half minutes.

And you obviously didn't watch the game and are only interested in box scored, because Terry, Collins and Green all showed some very nice effort on defense which the box score nicely fails to tell.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 06, 2013, 02:12:09 PM
And Terry especially wad a beast on defense in the second half.  His ball pressure was Avery Bradley-like, and anybody who watched the game would have noticed this.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 06, 2013, 02:17:20 PM
And Terry especially wad a beast on defense in the second half.  His ball pressure was Avery Bradley-like, and anybody who watched the game would have noticed this.

Agreed, his defense was excellent in the 2nd half, particularly in the 4th quarter.

Very much questioned Doc going with him over Lee, but it paid off, especially defensively. Though I think he got away with it because of Atlanta's 2 PG unit, and Terry has been solid defensively against PGs in my opinion this year.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: cltc5 on January 06, 2013, 02:55:29 PM
I'm glad.  Whatever is gonna get these guys to focus.  Who cates if it goes public.  They've needed a fire lit under them all year and if it leads to getting rid of players who aren't all in then so be it.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 06, 2013, 03:10:49 PM
I'm glad we don't know names.  If we did, we'd consider the perpetrator(s) chemistry busters.  In fact, arguments happen on teams with good chemistry.  KG could easily have been among the frustrated.  This wasn't a bad thing -- unless you consider coming out of half-time with a vengance and taking over the game a bad thing.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: Fafnir on January 06, 2013, 03:37:43 PM
And Terry especially wad a beast on defense in the second half.  His ball pressure was Avery Bradley-like, and anybody who watched the game would have noticed this.

Agreed, his defense was excellent in the 2nd half, particularly in the 4th quarter.

Very much questioned Doc going with him over Lee, but it paid off, especially defensively. Though I think he got away with it because of Atlanta's 2 PG unit, and Terry has been solid defensively against PGs in my opinion this year.
Terry really struggles with bigger guards, he does a much better job when he's not playing against players who just shoot over him or muscle right through him.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: Fafnir on January 06, 2013, 03:39:06 PM
I'm glad we don't know names.  If we did, we'd consider the perpetrator(s) chemistry busters.  In fact, arguments happen on teams with good chemistry.  KG could easily have been among the frustrated.  This wasn't a bad thing -- unless you consider coming out of half-time with a vengance and taking over the game a bad thing.
Yeah it sounds like they were arguing over what adjustments they felt should be made, etc....

All normal stuff, no need to throw stones over it. Glad Pierce got everyone on the same page and that they responded to it. This sort of thing happens when teams are frustrated, hopefully they can get on a winning streak to rebuild the entire team's confidence.
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: TripleOT on January 06, 2013, 06:07:34 PM
In a bunch of possessions in the first half, ATL was kicking the ball over the place and it was rolling right to an open shooter.  When they did run their sets, everything they thre up was going in the hoop.

I would hope that some of the Celtics were frustrated at half time.  And I'm not surprised that cooler heads prevailed and they stuck tot heir game plan.  The Cs have been the est defensive team the past five seasons, and their system is proven.  Maybe the new guys will start to understand how to play Celtics basketball - 100% effort on defense, always ready to play help defense, and unselfish, move the ball offense where you take the open shot. 
Title: Re: Washburn: celtics were arguing over defensive strategy and blame at halftime
Post by: tenn_smoothie on January 06, 2013, 06:13:21 PM
To me the argument isn't interesting, because any team would argue after that 1st half. The point is that Doc trusts himself and the team enough to stick with the game plan, and Pierce does the same. That's a team moving in the right direction.

the arguing & finger pointing and especially, the disrespect to Doc bothers me a lot. if there are some chronic complainers on this team, they need to go.